Bush, Chirac, Gog and Magog

[FormerLurker]

Apocalypse HOW?

Incredibly, President George W. Bush told French President Jacques Chirac in early 2003 that Iraq must be invaded to thwart Gog and Magog, the Bible’s satanic agents of the Apocalypse.

Honest. This isn’t a joke. The president of the United States, in a top-secret phone call to a major European ally, asked for French troops to join American soldiers in attacking Iraq as a mission from God.

Now out of office, Chirac recounts that the American leader appealed to their “common faith” (Christianity) and told him: “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East…. The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled…. This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins.”

This bizarre episode occurred while the White House was assembling its “coalition of the willing” to unleash the Iraq invasion. Chirac says he was boggled by Bush’s call and “wondered how someone could be so superficial and fanatical in their beliefs.”

Subsequently, ex-President Chirac confirmed the nutty event in a long interview with French journalist Jean-Claude Maurice, who tells the tale in his new book, Si Vous le Répétez, Je Démentirai (If You Repeat it, I Will Deny), released in March by the publisher Plon.

Oddly, mainstream media are ignoring this alarming revelation that Bush may have been half-cracked when he started his Iraq war. My own paper, The Charleston Gazette in West Virginia, is the only U.S. newspaper to report it so far. Canada’s Toronto Star recounted the story, calling it a “stranger-than-fiction disclosure … which suggests that apocalyptic fervor may have held sway within the walls of the White House.” Fortunately, online commentary sites are spreading the news, filling the press void.

Link (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=haught_29_5)

This puts "Freedom Fries" in a whole new light, doesn't it? The really scary thing about this is that Bush actually thought that such a conversation would make France more likely to join the "Coalition".

I wonder if this same argument is what convinced Blair?

[Taskiss]

What does it say about a journalist who writes a book titled "If You Repeat it, I Will Deny" about an intervew with Chirac?

Well, if I tell someone that if they repeat something I say, I will deny it, and then they still repeat it, I will think that person isn't trustworthy.

And, the journalist admits that, right on the cover.

So, who's willing to believe someone who admits that they're not trustworthy?

[jimmac]

What does it say about a journalist who writes a book titled "If You Repeat it, I Will Deny" about an intervew with Chirac?

Well, if I tell someone that if they repeat something I say, I will deny it, and then they still repeat it, I will think that person isn't trustworthy.

And, the journalist admits that, right on the cover.

So, who's willing to believe someone who admits that they're not trustworthy?

James A. Haught is the editor of the Charleston Gazette (West Virginia)

Well he doesn't sound like a nut case and this would go right along with the god wanted him to invade Iraq thing.

[jazzguru]

Seriously, you guys are worse than the "Birthers".

[jimmac]

Apocalypse HOW?



Link (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=haught_29_5)

This puts "Freedom Fries" in a whole new light, doesn't it? The really scary thing about this is that Bush actually thought that such a conversation would make France more likely to join the "Coalition".

I wonder if this same argument is what convinced Blair?

This puts "Freedom Fries" in a whole new light, doesn't it?

If you put this together with " Hamburger manufacturing " it really give you a clear picture of what kind of leader we had ( and why things went so wrong ).

[Taskiss]

Well he doesn't sound like a nut case and this would go right along with the god wanted him to invade Iraq thing.Jean-Claude Maurice is the journalist, and he just wrote a book he wants people to buy.

Again, he puts it right there on the cover - "If You Repeat it, I Will Deny".

He admits to not being worth trusting.

[FormerLurker]

Actually, the same story was told earlier this year by a completely different person.

Was Bush on a mission from God?

May 29, 2009 04:30 AM
Stranger still are new accounts emerging from France describing how former president Jacques Chirac was utterly baffled by a 2003 telephone conversation in which Bush reportedly invoked fanatical Old Testament prophecy – including the Earth-ending battle with forces of evil, Gog and Magog – in his arguments to enlist France in the Coalition of the Willing.

"This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins," Bush said to Chirac, according to Thomas Romer, a University of Lausanne theology professor who was later approached by French officials anxious to understand the biblical reference. Romer first revealed his account in a 2007 article for the university review, Allez savoir, which passed largely unnoticed.

Chirac, in a new book by French journalist Jean-Claude Maurice, is quoted as confirming the surreal conversation, saying he was stupefied by Bush's reference to biblical prophecy and "wondered how someone could be so superficial and fanatical in their beliefs."


http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/642352

[jazzguru]

If you guys need some tinfoil hats, I've got some extras here.

[Taskiss]

Actually, the same story was told earlier this year by a completely different person.



http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/642352

"in a new book by French journalist Jean-Claude Maurice, is quoted as confirming the surreal conversation"

It's the same source.

[FloorJack]

With enough noise we might just distract people from the soon to be failure of Obama to get anything passed on health care "reform".


Maybe we should start another Palin thread?

[FormerLurker]

"in a new book by French journalist Jean-Claude Maurice, is quoted as confirming the surreal conversation"

It's the same source.
No, it's not.

Before the book was ever published, the same story was told by Thomas Romer, a University of Lausanne theology professor.

[jimmac]

Jean-Claude Maurice is the journalist, and he just wrote a book he wants people to buy.

Again, he puts it right there on the cover - "If You Repeat it, I Will Deny".

He admits to not being worth trusting.

And you're sure it's not just a catchy title? If so how are you sure?

[jazzguru]

With enough noise we might just distract people from the soon to be failure of Obama to get anything passed on health care "reform".


Maybe we should start another Palin thread?

Or another thread along the lines of: "Why are the Geriatric Obese Pricks (GOP) so utterly inept?"

[jimmac]

Or another thread along the lines of: "Why are the Geriatric Obese Pricks (GOP) so utterly inept?"

Well, why are they?:lol:

[FormerLurker]

Well, why are they?:lol:

Because Beck, Limbaugh, et. al. realize that they get higher ratings as The Angry Opposition than they do as Shills For Those In Power, and they're leading the GOP off a cliff for their own selfish interests.

[jazzguru]

Because Beck, Limbaugh, et. al. realize that they get higher ratings as The Angry Opposition than they do as Shills For Those In Power, and they're leading the GOP off a cliff for their own selfish interests.

If the GOP ultimately crashes and burns, you won't see me shed a tear.

[jimmac]

If the GOP ultimately crashes and burns, you won't see me shed a tear.

But if it it takes the bulk of the conservative movement with it?

The funny thing is this just came really close to happening.

But to be honest it's cyclic.

We're in a liberal period like it or not.

[Taskiss]

No, it's not.

Before the book was ever published, the same story was told by Thomas Romer, a University of Lausanne theology professor.I've tried to cite that story, no dice so far. The only one I can cite is the Jean-Claude Maurice book.

It's one thing for me to tell you I personally heard someone say something (as Maurice does), but if I told you I heard from someone that someone else said they heard that someone said something... well, that's not reputable. Second and third hand evidence isn't something I think make an article trustworthy.

I'd be happy to consider any article from Tomas Romer as citation, I just can't find anything.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Thomas+R%C3%B6mer+theology+professor&hl=en

[FormerLurker]

I've tried to cite that story, no dice so far. The only one I can cite is the Jean-Claude Maurice book.

It's one thing for me to tell you I personally heard someone say something (as Maurice does), but if I told you I heard from someone that someone else said they heard that someone said something... well, that's not reputable. Second and third hand evidence isn't something I think make an article trustworthy.

I'd be happy to consider any article from Tomas Romer as citation, I just can't find anything.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Thomas+R%C3%B6mer+theology+professor&hl=en

I'm not sure I get what you're saying... is it that no article can rely on sources other than the author's own direct experiences?

I don't know enough French to be certain, but this article appears to quote Romer as its primary source:

http://www2.unil.ch/unicom/allez_savoir/as39/pages/pdf/4_Gog_Magog.pdf

[FormerLurker]

"The telephone rang. It was the head of the Biblical Service of the Protestant Federation of France [Service biblique de la Federation protestante de France]. She asked me if I could write a page on Gog and Magog for the French President." Thomas Römer, a theology professor at the University of Lausanne (UNIL) and specialist in the Old Testament, had just been plunged into the midst of international politics. This apparently banal theological inquiry had unsuspected ramifications, for it was incited by George W. Bush.

"The prophecies are being accomplished."

"I also learned during this phone call that the President of the United States had brought up Gog and Magog in a conversation with Jacques Chirac. The discussion was about current events in the Middle East. After having explained that he saw Gog and Magog at work, George W. Bush added that the Biblical prophecies were coming to pass," Thomas Römer continues.

http://sedulia.blogs.com/sedulias_translations/2009/05/chirac-asks-theologian-to-explain-george-w-bushs-reference-to-gog-and-magog-early-2003.html

This does indeed appear to be a direct quote from Romer, and not a "it is said that Romer said" thirdhand account.

[Taskiss]

http://sedulia.blogs.com/sedulias_translations/2009/05/chirac-asks-theologian-to-explain-george-w-bushs-reference-to-gog-and-magog-early-2003.html

This does indeed appear to be a direct quote from Romer, and not a "it is said that Romer said" thirdhand account.

Someone blogged that Romer said that the head of the Biblical Service of the Protestant Federation of France said that Chirac said...

That's a fourth hand account.

[FormerLurker]

Someone blogged that Romer said that the head of the Biblical Service of the Protestant Federation of France said that Chirac said...

That's a fourth hand account.

So if Romer had written it himself, it would be a third hand account?

And you just said, "I'd be happy to consider any article from Tomas Romer as citation, I just can't find anything."


You're just chock-full of contradictions here. To repeat my earlier question, "I'm not sure I get what you're saying... is it that no article can rely on sources other than the author's own direct experiences?"

[Taskiss]

So if Romer had written it himself, it would be a third hand account?

And you just said, "I'd be happy to consider any article from Tomas Romer as citation, I just can't find anything."


You're just chock-full of contradictions here. To repeat my earlier question, "I'm not sure I get what you're saying... is it that no article can rely on sources other than the author's own direct experiences?"Sure I'd be happy to consider something Romer communicates.

I'm thinking you have a horse in this race. Well, I don't. I just read and consider, if I see something that seems too good to be true for one side about the other, well, I take that with a grain of salt, right off the bat. Then, if I care or if it sparks my interest (like this did, it just seemed so "out there") I research and see how close to the source I can get. With Maurice, there's a first hand account, but his motives obviously include selling his book, otherwise why write one and put this in it?

Typically, I don't get too close to finding a direct source for citation, just like that's missing for this one. But, if a fourth hand account is good enough for you, why, you go for it.

In the end, I wouldn't put money on it one way or the other, but that's just 'cause I'm not a betting man.

If I were, I'd always bet that people are bat-shit crazy. Seems there's always something seriously wacko about most folks, if you look deep enough.

Oh, and to answer your question, of course you can't rely on second hand information. There's a reason second hand information has the reputation it has, and that's 'cause it's unreliable. It can't be used in court, can it? Case closed.

[FormerLurker]

Sure I'd be happy to consider something Romer communicates.

I'm thinking you have a horse in this race. Well, I don't. I just read and consider, if I see something that seems too good to be true for one side about the other, well, I take that with a grain of salt, right off the bat. Then, if I care or if it sparks my interest (like this did, it just seemed so "out there") I research and see how close to the source I can get. With Maurice, there's a first hand account, but his motives obviously include selling his book, otherwise why write one and put this in it?

Typically, I don't get too close to finding a direct source for citation, just like that's missing for this one. But, if a fourth hand account is good enough for you, why, you go for it.

In the end, I wouldn't put money on it one way or the other, but that's just 'cause I'm not a betting man.

If I were, I'd always bet that people are bat-shit crazy. Seems there's always something seriously wacko about most folks, if you look deep enough.

Oh, and to answer your question, of course you can't rely on second hand information. There's a reason second hand information has the reputation it has, and that's 'cause it's unreliable. It can't be used in court, can it? Case closed.

Just one more time, as you appear determined not to clarify this for me.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying... is it that no article can rely on sources other than the author's own direct experiences?"

:???:

EDIT: So, you're saying that you hold journalists to the same standard as testimony in a court of law? That's gotta exclude, what.... 99.9% of all news reports?


I don't know what you mean by "putting money on it" or "having a horse in the race" but I'm fairly sure that neither one applies to me (and you're sure you're not a betting man? LOL). I just saw this report and thought it would make an interesting thread.

As for "what's good enough for me", I'm seeing two different sources (one being an extensive interview with Chirac himself) saying that Bush told Chirac that Iraq must be invaded to thwart Gog and Magog, the Bible’s satanic agents of the Apocalypse. Unless Chirac goes on record denying it, that will be "good enough for me".

Apparently, anything less than a statement under oath by either Bush or Chirac confirming the exact words that Bush used is "unacceptable" to you. Fortunately, I don't have to be able to prove something in a court of law in order to find it credible enough to discuss on AIPO.

[Taskiss]

I think I answered the question quite clearly and I don't know how you can still be in question as to what my position is.

You're willing to believe something that feeds a political agenda that you have gotten from second and fourth hand sources (at best). I'm not. It's no biggie, I guess it's probably due to my centrist nature.

SO many are spouting crap, just to gain some imagined position of political superiority. Nope, I don't play that game.

If you're really so caught up in this, you should start a thread and post insulting pictures. That's always good theater.

[sammi jo]

The "tin-foil hat accusation" is a convenient 8th grade leaning post for the closet authoritarians to rest on when they don't have a case to argue in a coherent fashion... which seems to be 'much of the time'.

:rolleyes:

[trumptman]

It's August. Obama is at 50% optimistically and sinking. We need a diversion. Oh hai, Bush isn't in power but was totally insane according to a blogger.

[FormerLurker]

It's August. Obama is at 50% optimistically and sinking. We need a diversion. Oh hai, Bush isn't in power but was totally insane according to a blogger.

We need a diversion! Quick - find a French journalist to write a book with extensive interviews of Chirac that makes Bush look bad!!!!

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/Evilpens/its-a-conspiracy.jpg