3 lbs sub-PowerBook

[Escher]

Some of you may remember the two everlasting "2400 dreams" threads from the old AI boards. I know Retrograde does.

I have to admit that I still entertain hopes for a very light sub-PowerBook subnotebook. After replacing my PB 520c with a Wallstreet immediately upon its introduction, I went back to a PB 2400c. The light weight and compact form factor made all the difference to me. But the PowerBook 2400c was on its last leg and couldn't run OS X, so it had to make way for an iBook (Dual USB) in May.

The iBook is fantastic, especially at the $1300 price point. It's robust, has a great screen, great battery life, runs OS X like a charm (now that we're up to 10.1) and has good AirPort reception. It's so good it is now my main system for everything I do. But when I'm carrying it around, or using it at home, I still wish we had a third portable option from Apple. I crave a 3 lbs or less sub-PowerBook with a Duo-style Dock.

Chances for such a mini-PowerBook are small. The iBook and the TiBook cover the portable market very well between the two of them. In fact, the current iBook fulfills all of my needs. But I can't help but desire something slightly smaller and lighter.

What do you think?

Escher

[Max8319]

well, since apple lowered the prices on the new powerbook models, there really isn't any place for a sub notebook......they have all the price range covered. if they had the old pricing, they could justify a $2000 model, but they can't do that anymore. now, they would be getting into the spectrum of the sony notebooks....they're really cool, but apple wouldn't sell enough and then they'd have to pull it eventually like the cube. sony has the resources, since they have a humongous market, other than computers, but apple may already have shot it'self in the foot with the ipod and i don't think they can take another fringe market computer.

[ColorClassicG4]

What would you want them to leave out in order to have a sub-3 lb. portable?

[Max8319]

have the optical drive connect through USB or firewire

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Max8319 ]</p>

[Escher]

[quote]Originally posted by ColorClassicG4:
<strong>What would you want them to leave out in order to have a sub-3 lb. portable?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know, that's a good question. The optical drive is the obvious answer. Beyond that it becomes more difficult.

The iBook's robustness is one of the main reasons why I gladly put up with the 1 lbs weight increase from my 2400c. But I really only use the optical drive for software installation. So I'd gladly leave it behind when I'm on the road. With IBM's new 40GB 9.5mm Travelstar drive, you can just make disk images of any CDs you may need to access on the road.

[quote]Originally posted by Max8319:
<strong>have the optical drive connect through USB or firewire</strong><hr></blockquote>

In this day and age, it would have to be bus-powered 6-pin FireWire. USB sucks blocks for anything other than keyboards and mice. The lack of bus-power in the Newer FireWire PC card on my 2400c was one of the reasons that made the new iBook attractive.

Escher

[Daver]

AI just wouldn't be right without a never-ending sub-PowerBook thread!

That said, I'm extremely pleased with my (almost) new iBook. It's no lightweight, but it's still leagues ahead of the behemoths I see most people lugging around. The great sreen, long battery life and sweet keyboard are nice, too.

[Belle]

This was one of my favorite discussions from the old AI. I'm happy to see you've resurrected it, Escher.

I think Apple probably knows, as you've discovered, that the new iBook fulfills most needs for the ultra-portable user. I don't know that a third notebook would be a smart move.

The current iBook is a shade under 5lbs, and still much more bulky than it need be. Perhaps the next major revision (Probably some time in '03) will bring it closer to the 3lb mark.

I think the days of the ultra-portable are numbered, because it's just not possible to fit the features people demand of a notebook into such a small and light package.

[Retrograde]

[quote]Originally posted by Daver:
<strong>AI just wouldn't be right without a never-ending sub-PowerBook thread!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, I must say the whole board is now beginning to feel a little cozier and homey. Glad to see the return of this thread Escher even if for many of us the iBook currently sits as a stand-in. It looks like I too may at long last be getting my hands on an iBook of my very own this holiday season. :) My trusty Powerbook 5300ce is now ever so long in the tooth and my 6500--as Cipher13 of MacNN will know--sounded the bell toll (startup chime) of its last breath not more than a month ago. :( So iBook 500 combo here I come with open arms :D

I must confess that for me the new iBook is virtually exactly what I wanted--those of you who followed the 2400 dreams thread may remember my desire for a hardwearing, 1024x768, optical drive fitted, 8 1/2" x 11" notebook. But in spite of this I still feel that a supersmall subnotebook would sell and fit into a market segment not currently available to Mac users--and not just because I have been enamoured with portable Macs from my first days with my first Mac, the Powerbook 150.

The problem with the cube was that it was an attractive concept that in reality failed to cut itself a distinctive market niche. In other words, all it had going for it was style--it was just like a powermac, it only looked different. Now I like style, but style needs to be wed with the practical desire of a section of the market not currently fulfilled by an Apple product. While the iBook is a relatively small and light notebook, there still remains a demand for something smaller--particularly in Japan, ask neutrino.

Think about it, Apple's marketing moniker at the moment is something like "The centre of your digital lifestyle" or "The Digitial Hub". Now, as I understand it, the digital hub is really only the Mac OS with it's compliment of "i" apps running on a machine with a set of connectivity ports with which you can hook all your digital devices. An optical drive isn't necessary to the hub itself, it is actually one device like any other. Basically what I am suggesting is that the "Digital Hub" concept in its purest form is a subnotebook: the Mac OS running on a machine with connectivity ports. 3lbs for this does not seem unreasonable.

[cdhostage]

A subnotebook from Apple would need the iBook's specs, but needs to lose weight.
Possible places: ditch the optical drive and make the battery lithium polymer. Hey, that's actually a pretty cool idea! Assuming it's the same basic size and shape as the iBook, maybe a little thinner, but same size screen and same size keyboard, I wonder how much weight you would save by offering no internal optical drive and replacing a lithium ion battery with a lithium polymer battery. I wonder how long a full-sizwe lithium polymer battery would last an iBook.

Anyway, the SubiBook, or PadMac, or what have you, needs the same specs as the iBook line of that generation. So, let's assume Apple releases this subnotebook in January. I predict iBooks and this new subnotebook will be all the same, with the following specs:

700 MHz G3 Processor
128 MB RAM
30 GB HD
Choice of optical drive (on iBooks)

[macaddict]

Ahh, Escher, a new part of AI has been filled with 2400 Dreams. :)

I think that the iBook's additional .5lbs is justified by the CDROM drive and low price, as Escher has said. Although I agree that a single model of a subnotebook could fit in well, unfortunately, the Apple market coupled with the lousy economy has changed all of this.

The two things that could go to a weight and size reduction of the iBook is no CD drive, and a smaller but same resolution (1024 x 768) 10.4 inch screen. Although not necessary, it would be very nice to have the iBook thinned out as well. C'mon, there is nobody out there carrying a 1.3 inches thick "subnotebook". :)

A 600 or 700 MHz G3 is all that is needed. Same old Rage 128 mobility is fine and a 20 gig HD at 4200 RPM. As long as it's small and light the features we need can be sacrificed. Plus, the price point needs to stay low. What we cannot sacrifice are ports. 2 USB, and at least one Firewire, preferably two. Slap this into a sleek Titanium case with a frame made with fancy buzzwords and make it rugged. Exposed screws make things look very rugged. However, I'm not sure how large the keyboard can be if the screen is only 10.4 inches with a very thin bezel. Anyone have any numbers on this?

[jutus]

If a 3 lb escherBook came into existence between the iBook and the TiBook, would we not pine for a 2.5 lb powerbook between the iBook and the escherBook on the product grid?

I'd rather see a tabletMac. :)

[Crusader]

jutus, great name for the sub-notebook! "escherBook" Love it. As for the 2.5 lb sub-sub-powerbook/ibook (eB2), once we got that we would have post's like this:

"While the new eB2, is great for me, I would love for Apple to release a lighter version around a ounce. I figure they can take out the battery altogether, and use solar power. The HD can also be replaced with a 1meg flash rom. We can also reduce the screen size to 10x10 pixels. Chances are for the eB1/2 are small, but I really hope Apple releases it!"

Ah, love technology :)

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

How about solid-state storage, about 15gb.

[nonhuman]

[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>I think Apple probably knows, as you've discovered, that the new iBook fulfills most needs for the ultra-portable user. I don't know that a third notebook would be a smart move.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree, I think a sub-PowerBook would probably end up being another cube: a great idea that lots of people love, but just not practical enough to be successful. The only way I could see it working would be if they made the iBook so extremely cute that no self-respecting business-person could ever use one in public. Until such a thing happens I don't see there being enough of a demand to make it profitable.

[PookJP]

Welcome home, Escher . :D

- Pook

[Nebrie]

[quote]Originally posted by nonhuman:
<strong>

I agree, I think a sub-PowerBook would probably end up being another cube: a great idea that lots of people love, but just not practical enough to be successful. The only way I could see it working would be if they made the iBook so extremely cute that no self-respecting business-person could ever use one in public. Until such a thing happens I don't see there being enough of a demand to make it profitable.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, a lot of PC makers have been coming out with these, sony, ibm, compaq, etc... it is funny flipping them over and seeing a huge fan bulging out of the bottom though. These notebooks are targeted at businesses and executives as they also tend to look very slick as well. The biggest area of demand would be in Japan; this would be a great way for Apple to boost sales in Japan as their level of integration gives them a boost against all the other sub-notebook makers.

The ibook could come closer if it used titanium rather than that thick polycarbonate.

[FERRO]

I would love a sub-powerbook....

I wouldnt make it a major product unless the demand became soo large...

I think apple should let out some limited edition prototypes... just to be cool...

"Sub-PowerBook - Limited", "iPad - Limited Edition"... would sell like hot cakes!

I think a 25th anniversary product is in order... while theres still time...

[Amorph]

I think the 12.1" screen is as small as it will get. The iBook's keyboard stretches across the whole machine, and Steve has inveighed against shrunken keyboards before.

HDDs get smaller, though, and optical drives get thinner. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple manages to shave some weight and some thickness off the machine in the next revision. A four pound, 1 inch thick iBook would be pretty sweet, no? :) Maybe in a stainless-steel and white enclosure like the iPod's?

[FERRO]

oooooh.... I can see it right now...

A mini-ibook... that'd be sweet... polished steel....

I wonder if those mini hard drives get very hot? like the ibooks does?....

[neutrino23]

[quote]Originally posted by ColorClassicG4:
<strong>What would you want them to leave out in order to have a sub-3 lb. portable?</strong><hr></blockquote>

We had a thread on Macnn for a while about how to reduce weight in an iBook. I looked at changing or removing parts. There is not much to be done there. The CD drive is already very light. My conclusion is that the iBook got its current size and weight as a design decision. It is probably very rugged compared to other small notebooks. I'll bet you could toss them around in backpacks, pile other books on them, drop them (not too hard) and they will keep working where other books would simply shatter.

So, if Apple makes a lighter subnote the main thing to go will be strength. It will be very thin (lose the CD mostly for space compression, not weight loss) and not as durable as an iBook.

One possible form factor is that of the Toshiba Libretto. It has a wide LCD (1280 x 760 by memory). This lets it be small and light but still have full size keys.

If the new book uses the new ultra-low power G3 from IBM then it might also save weight on heat sinks and the battery could be smaller and lighter.

One target market would be business and professional people who have full size desktops for their main work but need something small and light for travel (work on airplanes, in hotels, giving presentations, etc.). It could be priced over $1,500. Without a CD it would not take share from the iBook crowd.

[neutrino23]

A question about Apple's laptop line and market share.

Sometimes people post that Apple can't have something like a subnote as it is too close to the iBook (similar arguments for other products). Yet, how is it that Sony, NEC, Toshiba and others can have three or four sizes of laptops in their lineup? The wintel market is large but there are a lot of players. Their individual shares can't be much larger than Apple's.

Just now I pulled off of a website in Japan a ranking of laptop sales in Japan:
1. Fujitsu FMVNB890L FMV-BIBLO
2. Sony PCG-FX55S/BP Vaio Note FX
3. NEC LL700/1D LaVie L
4. Apple M8599J/A iBook G3-600 combo-drive 198,000 yen list
5. NEC LL500/1D LaVie L
6. Sony PCG-FX33S/BP Vaio Note FX
7. Sony PCG-GR5E/BP Vaio Note GR
8. Fujitsu FMVNB89D FMV-BIBLO
9. Fujitsu FMVNB89DR FMV-BIBLO
10. Apple M8362J/A G4–550 Ti-PB 259,800 yen list

<a href="http://www.computernews.com/" target="_blank">http://www.computernews.com/</a> (Japanese only)

This doesn't show individual shares, just the ranking. Only Apple posts a list price, the rest have switched to what they call Open Pricing which lets individual stores set their own price (sort of).

My point is that Apple has two computers in the top ten ranking. That means that lots of companies are getting by on smaller market share than Apple does. So why can't Apple give us more variety in the line up?

Why not have a super high end dual G4 laptop with a huge screen? It would weigh 10 pounds but for some people that would be fit their needs.

Why not have a sub-three pound note at the low end?


I'm not advocating going back to the days when there were half a dozen desktops that were virtually indistinguishable. But why not make things that are really different (very heavy, very light, very fast, very inexpensive) from each other and try to cover a wider market?

[Logan Cale]

I came up with this idea recently for a duo-type computer, except it can act as either two computers or one more powerful computer.

The portable component fits into the desktop component, sliding into a slot somewhere on the case and connecting to the desktop with FireWire connectors or something else. Below are the basic specs and the concept of this idea.

Desktop Component

Single processor
100 GB hard drive
All standard ports
Superdrive
AirPort built in

This would have a slot that holds the portable component when they're connected. A button somewhere would eject the portable component when needed. When the portable is not in its slot, a flap would flip up, filling in the gap where it was.

Portable Component

Single processor
10 GB hard drive
1 USB port, 1 FireWire port
Modem, Ethernet
Under 3 lbs
10" - 12" screen

This component is really a subnotebook, it has no optical drive - the built-in Superdrive on the desktop component can be used for that - it has a small screen, and small hard drive. This should enable it to have very good battery life,

Both Together

Dual Processor
Both hard drives mount on desktop

When the computers are together, both processors work together as a dual processor computer. I could see an option to synchronize the portable hard drive with te big one when you connect it, but I don't know.

--

I tried to draw some examples in Illustrator, but alas, I am not good enough (either that or I didn't have the time to make them look any good - you decide ;) ). I'll have to do it the old fashioned way - hand draw them and scan 'em in.

But, yeah, that's my idea. Whatcha think? :)

It's not EXACTLY a sub-PowerBook, but this is the best thread for it and I didn't want to waste a whole new thread on my silly little idea. :)

[FERRO]

I like that Idea...

Two Computers, Dual processors...

[ihxo]

[quote]Originally posted by FERRO:
<strong>I like that Idea...

Two Computers, Dual processors...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wonder how much the tech development cost will be ....

usually a Dual processor will have 2 identical processor, but a powerbook and a powermac CPU are never "really" identical.

and apple have to solve the problem of how to communicate between 2 processor problem ... with firewire ? USB ? PCMCIA ? Fiber Optics ?

LOL I can't start to imagine the cost of that machine ...

[FERRO]

Maybe GIGAWIRE is a small fiber-optic cable....

it would certainly make the digital hub idea easier... one small fiberoptic cable... to connect everything...

... that'd be cool...

[prutz11]

[quote]Originally posted by JFW:
<strong>How about solid-state storage, about 15gb.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't even begin to tell you how badly I want this. How is it we have not seen more use of solid state storage... cost yes... but I'd rather not think about that.

[Escher]

First and foremost, let me say that I am absolutely delighted at the response to this thread. I thought for sure that interest in and hope for a sub-PowerBook had died with the new iBook's May announcement.

[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>This was one of my favorite discussions from the old AI. I'm happy to see you've resurrected it, Escher.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you, Belle. I'm glad you enjoy(ed) it as much as I do.

[quote]<strong>The current iBook is a shade under 5lbs, and still much more bulky than it need be. Perhaps the next major revision (Probably some time in '03) will bring it closer to the 3lb mark.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Getting a smaller and lighter iBook was one of my realistic hopes for seeing a portable akin to a PowerBook 2400c. As we all know, the iBook (Dual USB) turned out to be just such a smaller and lighter and thus vastly improved iBook.

[quote]<strong>I think the days of the ultra-portable are numbered, because it's just not possible to fit the features people demand of a notebook into such a small and light package.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would add one qualification to your statement, namely that it would apply only to the mass consumer market. I have no doubt that the Sony VAIO subnotebooks of this world will continue to enjoy brisk sales in the small circle of frequent travelers who need neither optical drives nor ruggedness.

Escher

[Escher]

[quote]Originally posted by Retrograde:
<strong>So iBook 500 combo here I come with open arms :D </strong><hr></blockquote>

I sure hope you will for for the new 600Mhz with 100Mhz bus. It's cheaper too. ;)

[quote]<strong>Basically what I am suggesting is that the "Digital Hub" concept in its purest form is a subnotebook: the Mac OS running on a machine with connectivity ports. 3lbs for this does not seem unreasonable.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Brilliant, Retrograde! Bus-powered FireWire (and to a lesser extent USB) connectivity is key to a successful subnotebook concept.

Escher

[Escher]

[quote]Originally posted by MacAddict:
<strong>I'm not sure how large the keyboard can be if the screen is only 10.4 inches with a very thin bezel. Anyone have any numbers on this?</strong><hr></blockquote>

MacAddict: Your analysis of the current market and Apple's financial situation is sound. As for the size of the keyboard in a subnotebook with a small 10.4" screen, It's difficult to say. Even though I liked the Yu-Plan keyboard on my 2400c, it is simply no comparison to the more ergonomically sized, smooth-acting keyboard of recent 'Books. I didn't realize this until I actually started typing on the iBook, after two years on the 2400c. At this point, I think I could only go back to a smaller keyboard if I got Duo Dock with a regular keyboard at home.

Escher

[Escher]

[quote]Originally posted by jutus:
<strong>If a 3 lb escherBook came into existence between the iBook and the TiBook, would we not pine for a 2.5 lb powerbook between the iBook and the escherBook on the product grid?</strong><hr></blockquote>

jutus: I'm deeply honored by your newly-coined term. Maybe that's what eBook stood for all along. How could anyone not love escherBook?

Also, some of you may remember that the codename for the PowerBook Duo 280c was Escher! What a nice coincidence.

http://homepage.mac.com/escher/.cv/escher/Sites/.Pictures/escherduoproto.jpg-thumb_205_273.jpg

See the <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/escher/PhotoAlbum5.html" target="_blank">full size image</a> on my iToos Homepage or visit the <a href="http://www.apple-history.com/quickgallery.html?where=270.html" target="_blank">Duo 270c</a> page on Apple-History for specs.

Escher

[Escher]

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>I wouldn't be surprised if Apple manages to shave some weight and some thickness off the machine in the next revision. A four pound, 1 inch thick iBook would be pretty sweet, no? :) Maybe in a stainless-steel and white enclosure like the iPod's?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Amorph: I'm glad to see you follow up Belle's realistic assessment with a vivid description. But please make it brushed metal so that the fingerprints show less.

Escher

[Escher]

[quote]Originally posted by neutrino23:
<strong>I looked at changing or removing parts.... So, if Apple makes a lighter subnote the main thing to go will be strength. It will be very thin (lose the CD mostly for space compression, not weight loss) and not as durable as an iBook.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Very enterprising, neutrino. I thought about ripping the CD-ROM out of my iBook. But I concluded that it wouldn't be easy and it's just so convenient simply to run off-the-shelf hard and software without any hacks.

As I've said before, the iBook's extraordinary durability is what makes the added weight perfectly bearable.

Escher

[Escher]

[quote]Originally posted by MacAgent:
<strong>I came up with this idea recently for a duo-type computer, except it can act as either two computers or one more powerful computer.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

MacAgent: We actually tossed around such a concept several times in the old 2400 dreams thread. I don't remember whether it was you or someone else who came up with it. The idea is great, but I fear its practical realization is even more far-fetched than a relatively simple subnotebook. However, OS X advanced multiprocessing combined with some ideas from distributed computing projects could make it possible.

OK. Enough post by me already. That's it for my contribution to this thread today. ;)

Escher

[JRC]

Lop off the top and half the side of a cdrom. Make it surface mounting. spindle hub exposed on keyboard plane area. small, shuttered/protected lens area for the optics. place it in upper right or upper left corner of the base, with the screen in the up position the disc shoudl slip under the screen'slower left or right corner, and have half of the cd-disc in front of the screen, half behind it. If worried about bumping/damaging, have a little radially-exendable cover that opens the 270 degrees from the corner and aroudn the disk after it is surface mounted - or maybe even just a metal rim that protects the edge for a stylish look.

JRC

[DigitalMonkeyBoy]

I beleive that a sub-powerbook lighter than the iBook would really have to take on a more "tablet" idea. Essentially, a PDA...

But before you shoot me down I think you should think about where computers may be going and I beleive that they should be less desktop-bound, that you can have it in your lap or use it like you would use a clip-board.

3lbs? You would have to eliminate an awful lot unless Apple comes up with a hard disk and battery that are made of aluminum or cheese...

It should be resonably powerful but it would not need to have a terribly strong processor.

[Matsu]

I really don't see a market for a tablets. They sound cool, but why would anyone give up their keyboard. I think we all underestimate it's utility. It's basic design, hampered as it is by the qwerty layout, has nonetheless managed to persist for 120 years. It's that good. Even a crappy index, middle and thumb typist (like me) can manage over 30 words a minute -- faster than all but the fastest writers.

It might be useful for looking at info, a kind of very interactive eBook, but you'll still want to plug in a keyboard when you have a lot of writing to do. Tablets for the vertical market -- used with easily navigated forms, tables, etc... make good sense, but pen recognition doesn't make a great substitute for a keyboard. Typing is just faster.

[Amorph]

I'm going to try thinking outside the box here. Bear with me. :)
How about this: Since the problem is the keyboard, detach the keyboard. You're left with a 10" screen (Down, Belle! Down! Not a tablet!) a picture-frame stand, a Sahara processor, a RADEON Mobility (ATi doesn't even make the Rage 128 anymore...) and either a 5GB or 10GB Toshiba drive, and 128MB of RAM (upgradeable) and a replaceable, hot-swappable "Lion" battery. That would be hardly larger than the LCD itself. Shockmount the LCD and wrap the whole thing in Lexan for durability.

Now for the fun part, which I admit is radical enough that there's a snowball's chance in hell that Apple will implement it - but hell, it's fun. :) The supplied keyboard would be one of those one-handed chorded keyboards, attached to a 3 foot USB cable, with a thumb mouse. You could put the screen on a desk or tray table, or hold it like a book, and type with your arm resting in a natural position. You could put the screen in a sleeve or briefcase and keep the keyboard in your pocket. The major disadvantage would be the learning curve associated with the keyboard, and that's a big disadvantage. But if it was done right, it would be much more ergonomic than a conventional clamshell design, and you could use it standing up. Given the USB connection, you could also plug in a standard keyboard and mouse if you preferred. Maybe Apple could offer an ultralight keyboard as an option - basically the iBook model with a frame behind it and a trackpad.

Now, of course, this thing would be sync'd and charged over FireWire (AirPort would be nice, but it's a battery killer - and the LCD will already be taxing the battery). You could have a special folder on your main machine that would be sync'd up with the device every time you connected.

That's total pie-in-the-sky handwaving, I know, but who's up in the clouds with me? Anyone? :)

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>

[jutus]

Hmm Amorph, you crazy cat.

I give your proposal an 8/10 for coolness.

The chorded keyboard, however, would be a tough sell as a "subNoteThing for the rest of us".

[Logan Cale]

I would think that would be harder to hold and type with than a regular laptop where everything is together. The keyboard would have to snap into place on the screen when you want to use it as a laptop, as holding two pieces on your lap while typing could be cumbersome.

[Amorph]

That's the one place where it would be a bit more awkward, but only with a conventional keyboard. With the chorded keyboard you'd just rest the monitor in your lap and your typing hand could be wherever you wanted it.

[Matsu]

That's even worse, ergnomically speaking -- One-handed keyboards are too slow/awkward. One of the problems with the laptop/notepad dichotomy is that typing is clearly better, but it isn't always possible --ie when standing & holding your computer in which case a notepad is much better. But if the notepad gets too big, then it's nearly as much of a pain as trying to juggle a notebook. I don't see a useful tablet any bigger than a letter-size sheet folded in half. It wouldn't be pocketable (except in a lab coat where it might be most useful), but it'd be small enough to hold with one hand and write with the other. If it were made light, thin (a half inch) and durable, you'd get a useful information-gathering notepad device. Still big enough to view useful pages, but small enough to work like an old fashioned notebook.

You'd still need a PDA for go everywhere functionality. However, your mobile phone may soon absorb most of that functionality. Sony may be the closest to the perfect lightweight notebook/notepad hybrid with it's picturebook. The formfactor is pretty damn close, but the technology is wrong. It's too fragile, and battery life is too short for it to fulfill our proposed function.

What to do? Take the picturebook format. Juggle the keyboard layout a tad -- so that the letters remain full-size but the numbers, tabs, F-keys, etc... are slightly reduced in size. Let the keyboard swing right around (the same as the open pages of a paperback held in one hand) when you want to use it as a notepad. Some circuitry would recognize this mode and auto-disable the keyboard. Use a smaller 1.8" HDD (the 5GB is OK), with a bigger cache (so it spins less). Find a lower power chip (perhaps a new Sahara down-clocked a tad). Same firewire charging scheme as iPod. A USB port. A decent amount of RAM, and one of those new litium polymer batteries. No optical drive. Lightweight polycarbonate plastic, completely sealed against dust and moisture. All no bigger (or thicker) than a 5.5"x8.5" spiral-bound notebook.

It's lighter than 3 pounds, has to be under two. Uses iBook level procs/vid/IO, but with a smaller (less power hungry) HDD and display. The rest is all battery, the li-Poly can be molded so as to fill out all the empty space with energy cells. It's not fast, but it should run OSX, office and internet well. It's rugged b/c of a minimum of moving/openable parts. It has very long battery life (from 12-16 hours) And it's cheaper than a full-fledged notebook at about 999. I think it's doable. If an iBook costs 1299, the use of a smaller screen and HDD, the loss of an optical drive, and the resultant simpler internal design would make it possible.

But would you or anyone buy it? If it were no bigger than the pre-described spiral bound notebook, ran OSX, were nearly instant on, were rugged, and no more than 999? I think I'd still just get an iBook. I don't know what kinda midgets you guys are, but the iBook is small enough. Unless they can make it extremely light, small, portable, rugged, long running, and dual functioning (notepad & keyboard) I see no reason to get a sub-powerbook instead of an ibook.

Frankly I don't notice any difference between 3 and 5 pounds. Nor do I, spacewise, have trouble carrying an iBook size device in any bag that would be needed to carry a sub-notebook.

[neutrino23]

[quote]Originally posted by DigitalMonkeyBoy:
<strong>...
3lbs? You would have to eliminate an awful lot unless Apple comes up with a hard disk and battery that are made of aluminum or cheese...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, if you look at some of the laptops available in Asia there are some about three pounds. I think I saw one from Acer that had a 13 inch screen and was about three pounds.

These days it is really a mechanical engineering problem. The parts (LCD, keyboard, etc.) are available. The problem is how to mount them in place in a package that is strong without being too heavy.

[Retrograde]

[quote]Originally posted by Escher:
<strong>I sure hope you will for for the new 600Mhz with 100Mhz bus. It's cheaper too. :)
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I had planned to pick up the cheaper iBook 600 DVD but I have been given an offer that I absolutely cannot pass up on the iBook 500 combo. And believe me, the difference between the 600 (increased bus speed and all) and the 500 will be barely noticeable when you consider the jump I am making from the 603 chip to the G3! The possibility of being able to play DVDs and burn CDs alone are enough for me to run skipping ecstatically down the road like a raving lunatic, let alone the ability to watch quicktime clips without continual stuttering and buffering! I think I might feel a little high with all that speed! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> ;)

As for a subnotebook I am feeling more convinced then ever that Apple will one day (heaven knows when though :rolleyes: ) release such a beast, in fact it is my secret desire that one day Apple will dissolve it's desktop line in favour of an all portable/semi-portable lineup. After using a desktop for sometime I find them to be an incredible waste of space and an annoying obstruction to my work routine. One of the reasons I have been a Powerbook fan is because I hate having to regularly fight with clunky keyboards and mice, large monitors and towers which hog my desk leaving me barely enough room to fit a cup of coffee, let alone notepads and books from which I work. I really like the ability of sitting down to a small compact machine that leaves me plenty of room for my non-digital work tools! As they say, "size matters"!! ;)

[jutus]

[quote]Originally posted by DigitalMonkeyBoy:
...
3lbs? You would have to eliminate an awful lot unless Apple comes up with a hard disk and battery that are made of aluminum or cheese...<hr></blockquote>

Wow! The Apple CheeseDrive? Ultra-high density Ultra-Fast-Wide-SCSI goodness AND a nutritious snack and source of Calkium™? Bring it on! MWSF maybe?

[Retrograde]

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>I think the 12.1" screen is as small as it will get. The iBook's keyboard stretches across the whole machine, and Steve has inveighed against shrunken keyboards before.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, yes and no, or should I say, no and yes. Please bear with a momentary flight of fancy :)

I agree that people will not want to give up the keyboard in its current size and so I agree that the width of the machine cannot really change. But what if the depth of the subnotebook was to radically alter? Here is what I am thinking: Say the subnotebook is basically the size of the keyboard? certainly the screen size will change. For argument's sake, it could still be 1024 across but now just 480 high or perhaps better at 512, a 2:1 aspect ratio.

Now, there is a problem with doing this, all of a sudden we have no space for the palm rest and, more importantly, the trackpad. One could go the "nipple" route, but, hey, I like my nipples kept in their natural environment ;) Another solution would be to force people to travel with a mouse but this would defeat some of the attractiveness and ease of the subnotebook's portability.

What i have been imagining in my--admittedly unpractical--head is a sort of "virtual trackpad". By this I mean that the trackpad is built-in to the keyboard's keys itself. Notebook keyboards are getting thinner and flatter all the time and so the keyboard surface is fairly flat (although admittedly not as flat as a trackpad itself). So if Apple were to designate the area of say a number of keys (let's say the T-Y-U, F-G-H-J, and V-B-N) as keys with tracking sensor's that were mapped up as a grid to work seamlessly as a single area (as opposed to individual key areas), then by pressing a button on the fly when typing we could move back and forth between typing mode and trackpad mode. The "button" would obviously be the space bar and would be activated as one whenever we select the tracking mode and would return to being a space bar when we re-select typing mode.

This may sound a little awkward but I can imagine Apple implementing it quite nicely and I can also imagine becoming relatively used to moving between typing and tracking mode as I work away. Crucially, by doing this we would have a notebook that in width and depth dimensions would be radically smaller then the current iBook and so would lend itself quite possibly to becoming 3 pounds... or perhaps even less. Does this have any plausibility? or have I been smoking a little too much of the green stuff? <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

[Matsu]

ahem... little rubber nubin track-pointy thing. Simple. In some cases better than a track pad.

[Retrograde]

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>ahem... little rubber nubin track-pointy thing. Simple. In some cases better than a track pad.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, I'm aware of the "little rubber nubin track-pointy thing" which I called the "nipple" above. I guess I have never found it to be very effective in pointing my cursor where I want it to go. Rather I find it a nuisance and uncomfortable to use, and often hit it by mistake when typing which I also find a bother. But it has certainly been the most widely adopted answer to the problem, just one I am not very happy with. But maybe that's just me. :)

[akalbay]

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>I...That's total pie-in-the-sky handwaving, I know, but who's up in the clouds with me? Anyone? :) [ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Amorph ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

pie-in-the-sky? i don't know maybe not....we might be flying naked before too long ...
see ya on the rooftop :)
_______

[gumby5647]

why not just release the modern day equivelant to the Duo? and Dock? Im all for that....

3.9 pounds
6GB Hard drive
1 USB Port
56K modem
PDS Port

999.00

[Matsu]

how'bout a touch screen??? very expensive no?

Wait, I've a better idea for all you nubin haters. A wireless stylus. Bigger than the palm stylii, it slides into a port on your book when not in use (where it charges) -- using some tech (bluetooth or whatever works) it communicates with your book within a 2-3feet tops. You don't use it on the screen like a stylus, though. You use it on a an adjacent surface (your desk, even in the air, whatever) and the cursor on the screen aoutmatically coresponds.

Whaddaya think?

[nonhuman]

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>how'bout a touch screen??? very expensive no?

Wait, I've a better idea for all you nubin haters. A wireless stylus. Bigger than the palm stylii, it slides into a port on your book when not in use (where it charges) -- using some tech (bluetooth or whatever works) it communicates with your book within a 2-3feet tops. You don't use it on the screen like a stylus, though. You use it on a an adjacent surface (your desk, even in the air, whatever) and the cursor on the screen aoutmatically coresponds.

Whaddaya think?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Heh, I can imagine the taunts of the PC community when Mac users give up their mice, pads, and balls (of the tracking sort) for their "magic fairy wands". <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

But seriously, I think something like that would be the perfect solution. And it would go great with Retrograde's idea (as well as with the similar idea I put forth in the Newton replacement thread).

Now if we just got rid of the screen all-together and moved the display onto one of those LCD glasses thingies we'd really have something ...namely a bunch of mac users in funny glassing waving wands! :D

[neutrino23]

[quote]Originally posted by Retrograde:
<strong>

Well, yes and no, or should I say, no and yes. Please bear with a momentary flight of fancy :)

I agree that people will not want to give up the keyboard in its current size and so I agree that the width of the machine cannot really change. But what if the depth of the subnotebook was to radically alter? Here is what I am thinking: Say the subnotebook is basically the size of the keyboard? certainly the screen size will change. For argument's sake, it could still be 1024 across but now just 480 high or perhaps better at 512, a 2:1 aspect ratio.
...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Toshiba Libretto is like this. From memory, the display is about 1280 by 600 or something close to that. They have a smallish but normal size keyboard (19mm pitch?) and there is room for small track pad. Actually, they went for the nipple instead of the trackpad and filled up the trackpad space with several buttons.

Given that the vertical space would be small a rectangular trackpad could work.

By the way, the Libretto uses a Transmetta chip and has FW, USB, audio in and out, VGA out and a little more. No optical drive, no floppy. It looks good but I noticed that after a couple of months the hinges on the demo systems get loose and the LCD tends to flop over backward.

[Matsu]

I think the mouse pen would be a great option even for controlling your desktop, and especially for editing text hi-lighting and moving or erasing areas. Make it smart enough to go null when you lay it down, auto erase when you flip it over, etc... Some intelligent comands could be built in that work not through numerous button presses, but with the articulation of the pen itself.

I think tablets provide a lot of this function, but the point would bee that it works on any surface in close proximity to your keyboard, and without the need for a tablet at all.

[neutrino23]

[quote]Originally posted by ColorClassicG4:
<strong>What would you want them to leave out in order to have a sub-3 lb. portable?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Example of a laptop under three pounds:

Sharp Mebius
600MHz P-III
ATA-33 20GB HD
192MB RAM (max?)
ATI Rage Mobility, 4MB vram
12.1 inch 1024x768 display
1600 x 1200 using external CRT via VGA port
stereo out jack, mono input, built in microphone as well
1 PC card slot
1 compact flash card slot
speaker
no optical drive
USB x 2
no firewire
56K modem
2.9 pounds
10/100 Base T Ethernet
no FD
trackpad
3 hours battery life
19.9 mm thick at the thickest point though they advertise it as being 16.6mm thick.
282 x 232 mm

I'm not holding this up as an example of a perfect small laptop. Just an example of how another manufacturer met the challenge.

I'm curious about what HD they used. There can't be more than 6 or 8 mm of space for the HD.

In their laptop family they have five or so models with displays of 10.4, 12.1, 14.1 and 15 inches and using the Crusoe chip, P-III 500, P-III 600, AMD-Duron 800, AMD Duron 850, AMD Athlon 1.0GHZ. The 1.0GHz lapton with the 15 inch display weighs 3.8kg, about 8.4 lbs.

[Matsu]

But really now. HOW WEAK ARE YOU PEOPLE. 3 pounds doesn't go anywhere 5 can't. You still need to put it in a bag: it's not as though you could put youe 3 pound book in your back pocket. You still need to set a 3 pound notebook on a stable surface to type on it, same as a 5. All you do is sacrifice a useful optical drive, and often, HDD performance, keyboard size and screen quality to boot.

If the iBook is too big and heavy, you really need to lift some weights, grasshoppers. And please don't say, "but the Japanese market..." They need to lift some weights too, or eat some steak and potatoes. I've taught a lot of Japanese students, and experienced their fascination with miniaturization. Especially the women: they're always complaining that this or that book is too heavy to lug between class and home. They struggle with doors everywhere. Come on! I realize some peoples are smaller than others but this is ridiculous. Eat something fer chrissakes! Anorexic waifs!

My bag routinely weighs between 10-25 pounds, and if I take home some marking or hit the library/study hall during mid-term/finals time, that can nearly double. WTF? If I had a notebook with me, I'd easily chuck it's equivalent in papers out of my bag and be no worse off. Sorry, but a two pound savings in exchange for a drive, extra speed and greater storage just doesn't cut it. A 5 pound (but complete) solution is much better.

Eat Protien. Take Vitamins. Do exercise. Buy iBook.
:D :D :D

[neutrino23]

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>But really now. HOW WEAK ARE YOU PEOPLE. 3 pounds doesn't go anywhere 5 can't. You still need to put it in a bag: it's not as though you could put youe 3 pound book in your back pocket. You still need to set a 3 pound notebook on a stable surface to type on it, same as a 5. All you do is sacrifice a useful optical drive, and often, HDD performance, keyboard size and screen quality to boot.

If the iBook is too big and heavy, you really need to lift some weights, grasshoppers. And please don't say, "but the Japanese market..." They need to lift some weights too, or eat some steak and potatoes. I've taught a lot of Japanese students, and experienced their fascination with miniaturization. Especially the women: they're always complaining that this or that book is too heavy to lug between class and home. They struggle with doors everywhere. Come on! I realize some peoples are smaller than others but this is ridiculous. Eat something fer chrissakes! Anorexic waifs!

My bag routinely weighs between 10-25 pounds, and if I take home some marking or hit the library/study hall during mid-term/finals time, that can nearly double. WTF? If I had a notebook with me, I'd easily chuck it's equivalent in papers out of my bag and be no worse off. Sorry, but a two pound savings in exchange for a drive, extra speed and greater storage just doesn't cut it. A 5 pound (but complete) solution is much better.

Eat Protien. Take Vitamins. Do exercise. Buy iBook.
:D :D :D </strong><hr></blockquote>

Wow. Take a deep breath.

Actually, beef is now really on the outs in Japan. They found one cow with mad cow disease and now everyone is in a panic they will get the disease with the next hamburger they eat. The yakiniku restaurants are going broke and the department stores are substituting packages of pork and crab for the year end gift packages of beef they used to sell.

Anyway, if you are walking or cycling then every pound counts. If, like in North America, you tend to drive then a few pounds doesn't matter much. I've tried standing in the trains, balancing my Pismo on one hand while I manipulate the cursor with the other. It is hard. Much easier with a little two or three pound wonder. Even if you get a seat it is so tight you can't use a wide laptop. With my Pismo the sides of the laptop are brushing up against my neighbors.

Actually, this morning there was no room for any laptop. When I got in the train I raised my hand to brace myself against the wall for a moment. Then a crush of people surrounded me and I couldn't put my arm down for the next ten minutes. At least I could keep two feet on the floor.

[SDW2001]

The sub 3lbs PowerBook is just not going to happen.

Have you used a new iBook? They are very light and very portable. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY Apple is going to come out with a smaller laptop.

Get over it.

[neutrino23]

[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>The sub 3lbs PowerBook is just not going to happen.

Have you used a new iBook? They are very light and very portable. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY Apple is going to come out with a smaller laptop.

Get over it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have a PISMO 500 which is 5.9 lbs and I have checked out the iBooks at my local store. They are very good. I am not knocking them (the keyboard could be better). I just want it lighter.

Actually, you have to figure that eventually it will happen. Apple is just taking their sweet time about it.

If they wanted to they could come out with the executive version of iBook. Color is an opalescent, deep Royal Blue that just looks amazing in sunlight. The screen is coated with polycrystalline diamond to be scratch resistant. The device is one half inch thick, weighs about 2.2 lbs., has white LEDs in the top corners of the screen case to optionally light the keyboard for you. (I've seen USB powered devices like this, they look good.) The ports pretty much match those of an iBook. Standard memory is 512MB. Price is about $2,000. Optional external combo drive. Running OS X in sleep mode battery consumption is very low. Six hours run time. Wake from sleep in OS X in one second. I'd gladly trade in my PISMO 500 for one of these.

[Escher]

Following the tradition, I'm not allowed to let this thread get washed below the waves of other future hardware discussion.

Some of you might recall that King Chung Huang put up a partial <a href="http://commons.ucalgary.ca/king/appleinsider/" target="_blank">mirror of the old AI boards</a> with pages he managed to recover with the help of the Internet Archive <a href="http://www.archive.org/index.html" target="_blank">WayBack Machine</a>. A little bit of research shows that the old "2400 dreams" thread was located at Forum1/HTML/001780.html. Unfortunately, the Internet Archive seems not to have picked up my favorite thread of all times.

Escher

[Smircle]

Originally posted by Escher:
[quote]
I have to admit that I still entertain hopes for a very light sub-PowerBook subnotebook.
<hr></blockquote>
The following problems come to mind:
- not durable. The Ti is very expensive but it is not robust. This is ok for business-types but not for adolescents. So it could not replace the iBook.
- price. The subnotebook would have to be more expensive than the iBook (you'd need higher-grade materials) but offer less than a similarly priced Tibook.
- cannibalisation of sales. It would add development costs but drive buyers away from iBooks and Tibooks. I have a hard time imagining that it would create a lot of sales Apple would miss without it.

Imho, docking stations suck. I do not want to have all the goodies at home while I am away. And the dual-processorsetup is unlikely to say the least. You'd be better off in almost any respect if you buy an iBook and an iMac.

[Michael Grey]

[quote]Following the tradition, I'm not allowed to let this thread get washed below the waves of other future hardware discussion. <hr></blockquote>

Sure you can.

[Addison]

I don't think a small screen on a sub note would suite OSX.

The apps we use need decent screens, the dock would take up too much acerage. The fonts would be difficult to read.

Things that would be no good on a sub note:-

Dreamweaver
Quark
Photoshop
iMovie
iDVD
Need I go on.

If you want word an and email get a PDA. BUt you don't like the ones on the market right now...

Well I think you will find that we are going to get some really good PDA-Phones which will sync with outlook/Entourage/Eudora etc. They are going to be so good they are going to kill the sub note market for both platforms. IMO.

[KidRed]

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>But really now. HOW WEAK ARE YOU PEOPLE. 3 pounds doesn't go anywhere 5 can't. You still need to put it in a bag: it's not as though you could put youe 3 pound book in your back pocket. You still need to set a 3 pound notebook on a stable surface to type on it, same as a 5. All you do is sacrifice a useful optical drive, and often, HDD performance, keyboard size and screen quality to boot.

If the iBook is too big and heavy, you really need to lift some weights, grasshoppers. And please don't say, "but the Japanese market..." They need to lift some weights too, or eat some steak and potatoes. I've taught a lot of Japanese students, and experienced their fascination with miniaturization. Especially the women: they're always complaining that this or that book is too heavy to lug between class and home. They struggle with doors everywhere. Come on! I realize some peoples are smaller than others but this is ridiculous. Eat something fer chrissakes! Anorexic waifs!

My bag routinely weighs between 10-25 pounds, and if I take home some marking or hit the library/study hall during mid-term/finals time, that can nearly double. WTF? If I had a notebook with me, I'd easily chuck it's equivalent in papers out of my bag and be no worse off. Sorry, but a two pound savings in exchange for a drive, extra speed and greater storage just doesn't cut it. A 5 pound (but complete) solution is much better.

Eat Protien. Take Vitamins. Do exercise. Buy iBook.
:D :D :D </strong><hr></blockquote>


ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!