MacWorld in New York - 2002 is Apple's year [Archive]

Dorsal M

06-14-2002, 04:06 PM

Sorry for the long haitus, but it has been quite busy here. We are in final testing phases of our Apple hardware and there has been an excitement in the air. I believe many of you will be pleasantly surprised with the hardware to be released, and after seeing some other sites, I'd like to remind you all that behind most rumors is a kernel of truth, despite the fact that some sites like to embelish on the tidbit they get. Without further ado...

The PowerMac G4 as we know it will be retired. Well the architecture will at least. We will see changes to the system bus, processor and general layout. Motorola has been hard at work with the 130nm G4. It will scale nicely (at least 1.5GHz by the summer) and have improved bus features. Memory access will be stellar. And you'll see why. not only will DDR SDRAM make a debut but it will not connect to the processor iin a conventional manner. More to come. Cache will also be increased on the processor level. Twice what is seen now. You will see a collaboration with another hardware company, but this will not surprise some of you in the know.

More to come.

hmurchison

06-14-2002, 04:16 PM

It's too late.

AMD has Hammer coming out on 400Mhz Point to Point Busses. 8way machines are planned with Quads being demo'd.

Intel has Prescott coming which supports a 666mhz Bus. In addition to the faster speeds that Northwood is going to bring.

Apple is not even close enough to choke on Intel/AMD's fumes.

27ray

06-14-2002, 04:16 PM

I can not wait!

-ray

First post

Phrogman

06-14-2002, 04:17 PM

Hmmmm....Dorsal's post is just vague enough to be true.

;)

27ray

06-14-2002, 04:17 PM

BTW Welcome back! :D

JCG

06-14-2002, 04:20 PM

The way I read this is that Moto will continue with the G4, but these will become consumer level only processors, finally breaking out of a very old mother board. IBM moves into the lead for the towers and servers....

MicrosoftOsXp

06-14-2002, 04:23 PM

who cares about amd and intel hardware, they're still stuck with the largest bottleneck ever, windows.

Anders

06-14-2002, 04:23 PM

Hmm. Who is this Dorsal guy?

How legit is he? On a scale from one to ten. One being Kormac and ten being WorkerBee.

hmurchison

06-14-2002, 04:26 PM

theMagius

06-14-2002, 04:28 PM

Well, if what you say is true, Dorsal M, then I suspect I'll be making an Apple purchase this summer.

I do love my tried-and-true B&W G3 350MHz, but her video card is aging, and her processor is slow to heed during iMovie edits.

With a cutting-edge G4 processor and a Superdrive, I'll reach new heights-of DVD movie-making ease and productivity.

And with a top-line ATI/nVidia card (and the advent of DirectX to OpenGL conversion software) I'll be playing the best, simultaneously-released, Mac/PC games.

See you in the checkout line,
-theMagius

jeromba

06-14-2002, 04:31 PM

Dorsal!!! Moremoremoremore :D
eBay be prepared to my Dual 800 !

[ 06-14-2002: Message edited by: jeromba ]

mattyj

06-14-2002, 04:32 PM

The thing I want to know is this:
Has there been any substantial changes to the architecture of the G4 itself apart from it being moved to the 130nm process?

However memory bandwidth is the biggest hinderance to Apple's machines, its good to hear that they're supposedly tackling this problem head on with an innovative idea...

Oh well, we'll have to wait and see, how long is it till Macworld New York commences? :)

Kecksy

06-14-2002, 04:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MicrosoftOsXp:
who cares about amd and intel hardware, they're still stuck with the largest bottleneck ever, windows.<hr></blockquote>

Dam straight! Anyone who says XP changes the fact is a liar. Your PC may not die as fast, but if you give it enough time (or install enough apps) it's sure to croak. You know I had to reinstall XP for two of my friends this week? Man were those machines ****ed up. Glad I use a Mac and only fix other people's **** boxes.

[ 06-14-2002: Message edited by: Keeksy ]

Producer

06-14-2002, 04:40 PM

What doesn't make sense to me is if Apple had this new motherboard then why wasn't it used for the Xserve?

jeromba

06-14-2002, 04:42 PM

Because server must run on a good old and trusty architecture...

JCG

06-14-2002, 04:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Producer:
What doesn't make sense to me is if Apple had this new motherboard then why wasn't it used for the Xserve?<hr></blockquote>

Has Apple started shipping the XServe yet? If not, then they could announce at NY, "IBM/Moto finished the new processor early, so we are going to automatically upgrade all pre-orders for the X-Serve to the new processor/mobo". If they have started shipping them, then it follows Apples history with the server market releases lagging behind desktops.

RolandG

06-14-2002, 04:54 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Producer:
What doesn't make sense to me is if Apple had this new motherboard then why wasn't it used for the Xserve?<hr></blockquote>

Is guess for the same reason most of the Intel-based servers are still PIII's with special ServerSet-chipsets instead of P4-Xeons. As already the pricepoint shows, they are entry-level servers - nothing more, and nothing less.

There is no need for a single high-speed processor in that market segment.

If you need processing power you can easily stack the 1U-cases and cluster multiple servers (any news on this front?).

Matsu

06-14-2002, 05:00 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
Hmm. Who is this Dorsal guy?

How legit is he? On a scale from one to ten. One being Kormac and ten being WorkerBee.<hr></blockquote>

Kormac is not a one. Maybe a negative one. Kormac is total BS and has never been more than that.

Dorsal is a guy that used to be on these boards, but whose name was poached. (yes I know you know who he is and who this is but humor me) Dorsal M, the admins insist is authentic, but how do we really know?

Though JYD will disagree, Dorsal did pretty much describe the Xserve architecture and the QS towers. I think he knew something, was exposed to Apple product through a few degrees of seperation. Give'em a 6.5

JRC

06-14-2002, 05:02 PM

Nitride

06-14-2002, 05:24 PM

Inventory build up of PowerPC.

We have just seen PowerLogix announce G4 upgrades of up to 1 GHz. Why would Moto suddenly have some extra inventory to sell to PowerLogix when Apple is using G4 in *four* totally separate product lines; G4 tower, Xserve, eMac/iMac, PowerBook G4.

There is obviously good production and Apple stopped buying them for the tower some time ago in prep for the new G4/DDR.

Its all coming together, Xserve was the first warning shot with its DDR 2 Gig RAM and 66/64 PCI slots.

The real deal is the "new" G4 box coming soon. Hey it may even have a new case design in the spirit of the Xserve.

Welcome the news, vague or not, that Apple is ready to push their hardware forward as much as Mac OS X pushed the software forward.

Pendrake

06-14-2002, 05:51 PM

The XServe has some interesting design features that people don't think about. Additional L2/L3 cache makes a big difference, and the specialized HyperTransport chipset will help as well. If they _just_ move the architecture from the XServe to the PowerMac it will make a significant difference.

Nostradamus

06-14-2002, 05:53 PM

If it's not a G5 or not a G4 at a minimum of 1.5GHz and doesn't include a minimum 166/333MHz DDR bus, then Apple is doomed to have another very disappointing MacWorld.

frawgz

06-14-2002, 06:07 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Nostradamus:
If it's not a G5 or not a G4 at a minimum of 1.5GHz and doesn't include a minimum 166/333MHz DDR bus, then Apple is doomed to have another very disappointing MacWorld.<hr></blockquote>

Don't you mean DOOMED, period? Forever and ever? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

DaveGee

06-14-2002, 06:23 PM

Dorsal let me be the first to say I'm sure glad I was wrong... Due to your last posting date plus no return postings plus an Apple buyout of a company plus an active imagination... Well anyway I'm just glad you're still around and still posting.

Anyway, if I'm reading you right we're gonna see something more like a G4.5 at MacWorld NY eh? Better CPU <--> memory access will be 'stellar'?? As compared to current Mac's or as compared to the rest of the (highish end) desktop industry as a whole?

Oh and have you seen this pic? Does it resemble anything you may or may not have seen??

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/sekrit.jpg

Anyway... your first post while interesting left out much detail... I'm anxious to hear more.

Dave

Matsu

06-14-2002, 06:34 PM

[quote]Originally posted by JRC:


Oh no. One being Kim Kap Sol, my friend. Kormac76/7 is light years ahead of KimKapSol, our plastics-spy-in-hiding.<hr></blockquote>

I disagree. KimKapSol's steaming pile was short lived, Kormac's went on for months, it got smeared into every crack of AI's UBB and all the noses of those semi-retarded members who lined up for the priveledge of licking the choclate icing from between his cheeks. Truly disgusting, nothing in the history of AI was ever worse than Kormac and his fanatical cult weenies.

DaveGee

06-14-2002, 06:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:
You will see a collaboration with another hardware company, but this will not surprise some of you in the know.<hr></blockquote>

Well my money is on Nvidia...

Dave

Toofeu

06-14-2002, 06:57 PM

Hey guys don't wet your pants yet... We all know how Apple is good in the art of disappointing us.... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
The last two Macworld were disastrous.
Remember last year at the same time lots of us were expecting dual GHz machines with DDR and we all know what we finally got.
Last year I almost cried when I saw the specifications of the Powermacs.
Don't get me wrong I'd love to see REAL Pro machines with all the goodies and finally a brand new case.
But I believe that we will get a 1.2 GHz at the top of the line with the technical specifications of the X-Serve (DDR, ATA 100)
The only thing that gives me hope is the announcement of Powerlogics that will make available for purchase cards up to 1 GHz.
I do not have anything against Dorsal but he predicted so many stuff that never showed up, that I'm very skeptical.
:(

dr. zoidberg

06-14-2002, 07:06 PM

DORSAL........man, glad to see you back here.

everybody shut his worthless trap, and let the master spill the exciting beans!!! :D

so for geezes sake let´s hear some details Dorsal.... we´re starving here!!

<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

Mikey Offender

06-14-2002, 07:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Toofeu:
Last year I almost cried when I saw the specifications of the Powermacs.
<hr></blockquote>

That's just truly f`ucking lame. Lame. Lame. LAME.

What some of you knuckleheads fail to understand is if the PowerMac details make you "almost cry" and you swear off Apple forever, there are still people out there that have invested heavily in Mac software that will still purchase these machines.
Apple will make its money whether it's off you or not.
Grow up. :rolleyes:

Programmer

06-14-2002, 07:42 PM

Well I'd say that MWNY will be a make or break event for Dorsal's reputation.

I really hope he's right and we see a G4 with a modified FSB scheme or an on-chip memory controller. Only time will tell for sure, but Moki says they are "improving memory bandwidth" as well, so perhaps things aren't completely in the crapper?

pey/coy-ote

06-14-2002, 07:58 PM

Welcome Back Dorsal

Thanks for the info Mister.

As you indicated we've heard a lot of this before. So the new chipset architecture must be more impressive than is immediately obvious to me, or am I not to be one of the pleasantly suprised?

what you said Programmer

anand

06-14-2002, 08:41 PM

So Moki, what do you think of Dorsal? Is he full of garbage? You don't have to spill the beans but a hint would be really nice of you.

neutrino23

06-14-2002, 08:51 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Toofeu:

The last two Macworld were disastrous.
Remember last year at the same time lots of us were expecting dual GHz machines with DDR and we all know what we finally got.
Last year I almost cried when I saw the specifications of the Powermacs. <hr></blockquote>

Actually, I liked last years MWNY and went out after that and bought a QS867 with a 22 inch cinema display. It is awesome.

OverToasty

06-14-2002, 08:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Shanny:


there are still people out there that have invested heavily in Mac software that will still purchase these machines.
Apple will make its money whether it's off you or not.
Grow up. :rolleyes: <hr></blockquote>

... man's got a point, given the half life of Apple's market share, who cares if we're down to 5 or 6 users in a few years ... they could take turns pretending to be iCEO!

Developer meetings? No problem, hold 'em anywhere! Who's gonna show up?

Enough already with all this "who killed who?" er uh, with all this whining about Apple's hardware falling behind 'n stuff, think of the benefits!

Transluscent Aquariums For Everybody!
Whaddaya Say!

MacJedai

06-14-2002, 09:06 PM

Dorsal M, my sentiments go along the same as what DaveGee said ... I'm glad you're back (even though, in my case, I'm only guessing at things).

Regarding your vague opening post, does this mean things are "on-going" from your earlier thread "The G5 and what it means for future Macs", opened 3-19-02, only using an updated G4 (74XX) and not a (75XX)? Is the motherboard config using the same or similar daughter card memory association/ RIO implementation/ PCI-X ? And lastly, Do you think, based on what you've been testing, that there will be different main CPU hardware companies associated with Apple's Consumer and "Pro"desktop lines?

Glad you're still with us Dorsal. May the Force be with you!

Crusader

06-14-2002, 09:16 PM

Hey Dorsal, what ever happened to your predictions for MWNY last year? Not to rag on ya or anything but...

Mmm Dual 1.5s ...

DaveGee

06-14-2002, 10:18 PM

Going back over some older news items (rumors etc) I found this:
[quote]
Need for Speed

According to the PCI-SIG, a number of upcoming technological developments will require a faster internal input/output scheme.

"Technologies such as CPU speeds that will exceed 10 GHz, faster memory speeds, higher-speed graphics, 1-Gigabit and 10-Gigabit LAN, 1394b, InfiniBand fabrics and others will drive the need for much greater internal system bandwidth," according to 3GIO product literature.

Apple already includes a direct bus to the system controller on current Power Mac G4 systems, providing sustained throughput of 215 Mbps. The company claims that bottlenecks in most other PC architectures cause a slowdown to 133 Mbps when using certain applications.

Current specifications for 3GIO show data running directly from an expansion device (such as a graphics card) through a memory bridge and into the CPU, avoiding any potential I/O bridge bottlenecks.

The PCI-SIG claims 3GIO sports an initial frequency of 2.5 Gb/s/direction, which is expected to increase as silicon technology advances to 10Gb/s/direction (the theoretical maximum for signals sent via copper wire). 3GIO purportedly also will feature 100 MB per second per pin data transfer, compared with AGP 4X's 10 MB per second per pin throughput.

HyperTransport Complement

AMD is developing its own high-speed interconnection standard, independent of 3GIO, dubbed "HyperTransport." This I/O standard, which AMD officials said is not intended to compete with either 3GIO or PCI-X, will deliver 12.8 GB/sec.

Apple is a member of the HyperTransport Consortium, lending credence to speculation that the company will choose to integrate some form of AMD's technology into its high-end systems. NVidia, which supplies virtually all graphics cards for current desktop Macs, is also a member of the HyperTransport Consortium.

Major announcements regarding HyperTransport and possibly 3GIO are expected to take place at the Networld+Interop conference, to be held in Las Vegas, Nevada, from May 7th to 9th.
<hr></blockquote>

Does this fit in with anything we might be looking at?

Dave

anand

06-14-2002, 10:31 PM

So, can we expect simple G4's running at around the same speed but with major improvements to the bus? Will this make the G4 faster? I can hear all the people complaing if the all we get is a 1.2 Ghz G4...with hypertransport.

Cosmo

06-14-2002, 11:47 PM

For everyone who wasn't around when Dorsal first posted about the powermacs: we have to remember that Dorsal does not know what will be released at the next MW. He only knows what is contained in the test machines that his company receives. He reports on the tech that they use and just because the next PM doesn't contain some of this tech, doesn't mean that it didn't exist. Test machines do not always make it into production (hence why they are test machines). So use Dorsal's info to get an idea of what technology apple is testing, not what they will release.

cinder

06-15-2002, 01:07 AM

oh the vaugeness of it all!

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

so torturous

gsxrboy

06-15-2002, 08:42 AM

[quote]Originally posted by cinder:
oh the vaugeness of it all!

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

so torturous<hr></blockquote>

Yes you are quite right, who can call whatever is written wrong with such wide sweeping rumors... better faster... this we already know...

Toofeu

06-15-2002, 04:50 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Shanny:


That's just truly f`ucking lame. Lame. Lame. LAME.

What some of you knuckleheads fail to understand..... Grow up. :rolleyes: <hr></blockquote>

:D
No comment..... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

cinder

06-15-2002, 04:50 PM

They definitely need a catchier name than 3GIO

hypertransport is slightly better.

G-News

06-15-2002, 06:00 PM

Either we're all going to be very happy and buying new machines at MWNY, or we'll lose yet anotehr "credible" source of rumors, should Dorsals prediction fail.

It all boils down to less and less points.

G-News

Jonathan Brisby

06-15-2002, 06:17 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
Well I'd say that MWNY will be a make or break event for Dorsal's reputation.

I really hope he's right and we see a G4 with a modified FSB scheme or an on-chip memory controller. Only time will tell for sure, but Moki says they are "improving memory bandwidth" as well, so perhaps things aren't completely in the crapper?<hr></blockquote>

Actually... I hope he is dead wrong. Crazy as it might seem I actually have the highest hopes for Apple. Watch the previously refered to MacWorlds did not dissapoint me at all. I always leave the room buzzing with new news for my PC weirdo friends. I quit comparing mac and pc hardware back in the early G3 days. It's pointless. I don't care what kind of P4 or AMD you can build for whatever bucks you have. I'm just happy that my beloved company has something I wish to buy. Without a single exception, not even once, has Apple dissappointed me. They always pioneer professional new products with superior specs, even if it doesn't say "I'm a 2ghz" on the label. Hell... my Blue & White is still kicking booty and running OS X like a champ. Why gripe about a minor spead bump. I will hold my dream of a G5 for macworld, as well as USB 2, Quicktime 6 preview 2, Jaguar, and a new AppleWorks would be nice. Why sweat the minor 1.2 vs 1.5 ghz stuff. They still make the dang coolest computer on earth and no matter what that announce they will be getting my bucks.

2 pts for the real mac-addicts, 0 for those toeing the line with the pc world.

Eat more soup, stay regular, and buy a mac. With that advice you can't go wrong.

Crusader

06-15-2002, 07:22 PM

Wow Jonathan, it's nice to see a happy AI'er floating around.

My question is why would Apple unveil a new MB and associated tech's when the G5 is so close? Does this mean we may not see a G5 for a year or so?

Moogs

06-15-2002, 09:02 PM

[quote]I disagree. KimKapSol's steaming pile was short lived, Kormac's went on for months, it got smeared into every crack of AI's UBB and all the noses of those semi-retarded members who lined up for the priveledge of licking the choclate icing from between his cheeks. Truly disgusting, nothing in the history of AI was ever worse than Kormac and his fanatical cult weenies.<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> :D

That was crude, but possibly the funniest rumor-related commentary I've read all year. Thanks.

BobtheTomato

06-15-2002, 09:17 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:

Memory access will be stellar. And you'll see why. not only will DDR SDRAM make a debut but it will not connect to the processor iin a conventional manner. More to come. Cache will also be increased on the processor level. Twice what is seen now. <hr></blockquote>

Sounds like it *could* be Super G4 board moki desribed (and claimed was delayed beyond MWNY)

MacRonin

06-15-2002, 10:42 PM

Now, I realize that this is gonna sound iffy...

And I would like to point out, I have been around here for quite some time... This is my fourth account... One before 'The Great Outage'; one after TGO, but before the divorce (and nine months of celibacy from home internet access), long forgotten; one that is registered with my work email address (which I couldn't get by remote login when I wanted to post when getting this cable modem installed, since I do not use M$ products and therefore do not use IE, which I would have needed to use to access said mail account over the net... Whew!).

So, now that I have done nothing to establish any type of real credibility, I will tell my tale...

Also, I cannot give to many specific details on the who/how this info comes to me, as to not blow the 'cover' of my source...

Now you folks REALLY want to believe, don't you!

Someone involved with Apple Stores and MacWorld show logistics recently divulged some info... The last two (2) MacWorlds were screwed... Things were intended to be shown, but were not ready at the last minute... And Steve Jobs was PISSED!!!

MWNY2002 is supposed to be the one to watch, things are supposed to come together this time...

DDR Main Logic Boards, faster CPUs, and a big change from the current 'no audio in/Apple Design speakers only output' problems...

I have probably said too much already...

Programmer

06-15-2002, 10:43 PM

:shrug:

What Dorsal describes will get you most of the way to a G5. I'll take one please.

xype

06-16-2002, 01:47 AM

I really don't care about a G5 by now, I just want Apple to give me a good reason to buy a PowerMac the next time I am buying a computer. If it has a big bad bus, over 1.2 ghz in the mid range and solid graphics (ATI R300, since I like ATI more than NVidia) I'm happy. I'd be even more happier if it has a handle to carry and does not weight a ton, but that's about it.

Oh, and if they do release a 19" TFT I hope it's more than 1280x1024.

Wrong Robot

06-16-2002, 03:06 AM

[quote]Originally posted by BobtheTomato:

If Apple releases a G5 I'll buy myself a graham cracker
If Apple doesn't you have to buy me a graham cracker
<hr></blockquote>

G5s shmi5s(skywalker that is :)
I want to know how you can buy a SINGULAR graham cracker and where!...I think tomato bob has some inside information to the cracker companies....they're going to start selling individually wrapped graham crackers.....I better go invest!

spooky

06-16-2002, 05:44 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:
Sorry for the long haitus, but it has been quite busy here. We are in final testing phases of our Apple hardware and there has been an excitement in the air. I believe many of you will be pleasantly surprised with the hardware to be released, and after seeing some other sites, I'd like to remind you all that behind most rumors is a kernel of truth, despite the fact that some sites like to embelish on the tidbit they get. Without further ado...

The PowerMac G4 as we know it will be retired. Well the architecture will at least. We will see changes to the system bus, processor and general layout. Motorola has been hard at work with the 130nm G4. It will scale nicely (at least 1.5GHz by the summer) and have improved bus features. Memory access will be stellar. And you'll see why. not only will DDR SDRAM make a debut but it will not connect to the processor iin a conventional manner. More to come. Cache will also be increased on the processor level. Twice what is seen now. You will see a collaboration with another hardware company, but this will not surprise some of you in the know.

More to come.<hr></blockquote>

How exactly does the above constitute 2002 being apple's year? There is nothing in this guy's post to inspire any confidence and certainly nothing to kick the cr*p out of the wintel crowd with. Is the 64bit G5 coming? Apparently not. Is Aqua finally gonna work quickly? Apparently not. Is Maya gonna get Macified? apparently not. DDR? Possibly - oh well better late than never I guess. Is there gonna be a new killer graphics sub system? apparently not. FW2? Apparently not.

way beyond . . . :mad:

yurin8or

06-16-2002, 06:54 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Nitride:
Inventory build up of PowerPC.
We have just seen PowerLogix announce G4 upgrades of up to 1 GHz. Why would Moto suddenly have some extra inventory to sell to PowerLogix when Apple is using G4 in *four* totally separate product lines; G4 tower, Xserve, eMac/iMac, PowerBook G4.
<hr></blockquote>

because apple aren't shipping enough G4's?

ZoSo

06-16-2002, 09:31 AM

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:


How exactly does the above constitute 2002 being apple's year?<hr></blockquote>

I think he means "the year in which Apple will finally regain some of the ground they lost since 1999, so as not to appear riculously behind the Wintel world any longer--simply very slow compared to all the rest".

How's that for Apple's year? :D

To call it by that name Apple should start leading the pack once again, and this isn't going to happen anytime soon...

Oh well, I like my Titanium well enough--though with X is slower than my old iBook running 9... Well, I guess that's why we pay the friggin' price premium, right? </sarcasm>

:D

ZoSo

BobtheTomato

06-16-2002, 09:41 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Wrong Robot:


G5s shmi5s(skywalker that is :)
I want to know how you can buy a SINGULAR graham cracker and where!...I think tomato bob has some inside information to the cracker companies....they're going to start selling individually wrapped graham crackers.....I better go invest!<hr></blockquote>

Hey it's in better taste than some of the wagers here yet keeps the theme of no matter what happens I am gratified (kinda like heads I win, tails you lose) :D

ZoSo

06-16-2002, 10:20 AM

[quote]Originally posted by BobtheTomato:
heads I win, tails you lose<hr></blockquote>

"Crush 'em"? :D

ZoSo

Bigc

06-16-2002, 10:33 AM

I don't like graham crackers, how 'bout cocoanut macaroons.

Programmer

06-16-2002, 11:58 AM

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:

How exactly does the above constitute 2002 being apple's year? There is nothing in this guy's post to inspire any confidence and certainly nothing to kick the cr*p out of the wintel crowd with.
<hr></blockquote>

Well I don't know what you're on about, but from what I "know" with some degree of confidence...

"Is the 64bit G5 coming? Apparently not."

- I'd say not this year, but it doesn't need to.

"Is Aqua finally gonna work quickly? Apparently not."

- Apple is giving us Quartz Extreme.

"Is Maya gonna get Macified? apparently not."

- 3.5 has been shipping for a while, and there is a new version in the works that will be fully on-par with the PC & Unix versions.

"DDR? Possibly - oh well better late than never I guess."

- I think this is pretty much assured given the Xserve. Several sources say that memory bandwidth to the processor will improve. This may or may not be on-par with the WIntel crowd, but at least its improving. If you believe Dorsal then its going to be good.

"Is there gonna be a new killer graphics sub system? apparently not."

- Yes, there will be. Dorsal may be refering to this, but go check out the other threads.

"FW2? Apparently not. "

He mentioned this in his last post (March?). I'm guessing that it is part of the new chipset which, according to Moki, has been held up for quite a while for testing / debugging reasons.

You think its fun to be negative, don't you? I think you're just looking for a reason to be mad. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

spooky

06-16-2002, 12:35 PM

You think its fun to be negative, don't you? I think you're just looking for a reason to be mad.

No, apple gives me plenty of reasons to be mad :(

There's a difference between being negative and not living in the RDF :(

MaCommentary

06-16-2002, 12:49 PM

Take a look at the XServe Archetecture. I believe that, as speculated before, Apple will actually employ a seperate bus for the memory. They have obviously been playing arround with juggling around plans and demos whith edited busses and putting different things on the system controller. I think that they would have done the memory like this for the XServe, however they were changing from the regular model a ot already and still need to sell to people who cherish that model.

Programmer

06-16-2002, 12:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:
You think its fun to be negative, don't you? I think you're just looking for a reason to be mad.

No, apple gives me plenty of reasons to be mad :(

There's a difference between being negative and not living in the RDF :( <hr></blockquote>

There is no doubt that they do provide a few good reasons of irritation, and I don't live in the RDF... but everything discussed here is rumoured prerelease and since Apple hasn't admitted to it yet, it doesn't really fall into the RDF does it? No, it is just some cautious optimism -- nothing listed above is particularly outrageous, and Apple does deliver improved technology on a regular basis. If they didn't we'd still be running on a 7.8 MHz 68000 with 128K of RAM, 64K of ROM, and a noisy floppy drive. They even pull ahead of the PC crowd now and then (MacIIfx, 601, 604e, even the G3 in some ways). Give them some credit, and realize that engineering is actually hard work and can take a lot of time and money.

Bigc

06-16-2002, 12:56 PM

spooky

06-16-2002, 01:04 PM

There is no doubt that they do provide a few good reasons of irritation, and I don't live in the RDF... but everything discussed here is rumoured prerelease and since Apple hasn't admitted to it yet, it doesn't really fall into the RDF does it? No, it is just some cautious optimism -- nothing listed above is particularly outrageous, and Apple does deliver improved technology on a regular basis. If they didn't we'd still be running on a 7.8 MHz 68000 with 128K of RAM, 64K of ROM, and a noisy floppy drive. They even pull ahead of the PC crowd now and then (MacIIfx, 601, 604e, even the G3 in some ways). Give them some credit, and realize that engineering is actually hard work and can take a lot of time and money.

I like many would be very happy if apple employed some innovative design on the contents of their innovative designs. Some of this stuff sounds good - but that's all. Believe it or not, I am actually optimistic that apple can pull something out of the hat but I find it bizarre that so many people are trumpeting the possible addition of DDR or a speed hike to 1.5ghz as an amazing and dream come true possibility. I would regard it as a small step, a welcome one to be sure but a small step. And yes I know that engineering is actually hard work and can take a lot of time and money but how come apple seem to be only ones struggling at it? Its not as if they are short of cash. I've been amazed at the design work that has gone into the casings of the mac line (with the exception of the eMac) but just wish apple would show the same verve, daring and innovation on the inside.

Nostradamus

06-16-2002, 01:27 PM

I love how maclots use Quartz Extreme as an escape when faced with the fact that Aqua is slow, and always will be slow.

Quartz Extreme won't make Aqua run faster in general use. Only the Compositor will be optimized so that it isn't utterly pathetic during multiple events.

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]

Scott F.

06-16-2002, 01:28 PM

I am perfectly happy living within the warm confines of the Apple (SJ) RDF. I like getting wrapped-up in the hype... why...? Because truth-be-told... we're ALWAYS gonna want more from them... ALWAYS... you think there are DELL forums speculating on the pending releases of hardware or marketing or design...?

I am somewhat of a Power-User to some extent... I'm a designer who uses Photoshop, Illustrator, Lightwave, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro... apps that need speedy hardware... and I must say... that I get the performance I need off my 533 G4 w/ 1.5 GB RAM. Sure... renders could be quicker... but that'll ALWAYS be the case.

My 533 G4 is STILL suiting me fine... but when I upgrade to the NEXT top-of-the-line PowerMac... it TOO will suit me fine, because it will be even FASTER than my current machine.

Whatever they release at MWNY... I'm sure the performance will be to my liking. As long as they release products with style, substance, a certain "coolness" factor and still continue to provide me with the BEST operating system (IMHO) on the planet... I am very happy with them.

FWIW. Do not confuse my love for Apple hardware & software with "Blind Acceptance". I too am capable of recognizing occasional shortcomings... but let's be real... put any OTHER company under the same scrutiny that *we* put Apple under, and I'm willing to bet they would fail miserably.

The so-fabled "RDF" can be a fun place to be if you are AWARE that you are living in it and not "blind" to reality. I enjoy it for what it is and will continue to do so.

As a friend pointed out to me: "Dude... Apple could unveil a Toxic Pollution Emitter that spews harmful chemicals into the atmosphere and you'd focus on how EFFICIENTLY it does it and how COOL it looks while doing so..."

Yeah...? So what's your point? Heheheh... :)

Anyhow... I'm looking forward to the MWNY and whatever is released.

Let's hope it's a "doozie".

xype

06-16-2002, 01:47 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Nostradamus:
Quartz Extreme won't make Aqua run faster in general use. Only the Compositor will be optimized so that it isn't utterly pathetic during multiple events.<hr></blockquote>

So you had a chance to try it already? Or how do you know so precisely?

Brendon

06-16-2002, 01:54 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott F.:
Anyhow... I'm looking forward to the MWNY and whatever is released.

Let's hope it's a "doozie".<hr></blockquote>

What is highly likely:
New mobo, like Xserve, ddr to main memory like Xserve, improved G4 [edit] with larger cache like Xserve [end edit], system chip like Xserve, [edit] 4x AGP off of System chip allowing full access to main memory like Xserve.

Likely:
MaxBus @ 166Mhz to system chip, FireWire 2, [edit] better graphics like Dorsal said [end edit], [edit] DSPs on system chip like Moki said [end edit]

Likely in '03:
G5, RIO from CPU to System chip, HT from System chip to GPU, 128 bit Main memory (2x64).

Machines designed for Shake and Tremor and all the other stuff that Apple will buy will be here in '03 IMHO
Any of the stuff that is likely in '02 will serve the markets they are intended to. If you want to do highend 3D wait till '03. Remember that Apple and Moto are pulling of an 18 month stale mate with the PPC, from what I have heard there is a huge difference between a 7400 and a 7455. On the horizon the 85xx class processors look very interesting indeed. Again the 85xx could be '03

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Brendon ]

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Brendon ]

applenut

06-16-2002, 02:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Nostradamus:
I love how maclots use Quartz Extreme as an escape when faced with the fact that Aqua is slow, and always will be slow.

Quartz Extreme won't make Aqua run faster in general use. Only the Compositor will be optimized so that it isn't utterly pathetic during multiple events.

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]<hr></blockquote>

does it really matter? using it you notice a difference and pretty much all of my issues with the responsiveness of OS X have been resolved with Jaguar on my G4/400.

You're right in that maybe some things still are slow in Quartz like drawing and antialiased text that make browsers that use quartz slow in rendering but I didn't notice it that much if at all

There is no g5

06-16-2002, 03:07 PM

I swear, some of you will never be happy. Life is too short too be this worked up over a computer.

If you really believe life is better on the PC side, then buy a PC.

TinG5

Gamblor

06-16-2002, 03:21 PM

[quote]Believe it or not, I am actually optimistic that apple can pull something out of the hat but I find it bizarre that so many people are trumpeting the possible addition of DDR or a speed hike to 1.5ghz as an amazing and dream come true possibility. I would regard it as a small step, a welcome one to be sure but a small step. <hr></blockquote>

If the G4 gained a DDR MPX bus and clocked as high as 1.5GHz, it would compare favorably with the top end Athlons available now. That would be a damn near doubling of performance overnight, and you'd call that a small step?

No, I think what's much more likely is an Xserve chipset with a modest speed boost, like say to 1.266Ghz or 1.333GHz. I like Programmer's calculations of the boost the Xserve chipset will give, but I fear they may be too optimistic. Perhaps 10-20%, but 25-30% just seems to high, given the P3 only saw a 3% increase going to DDR. The performance boost from the increased bandwith, coupled with the increase in clock speed by 25-33%, should give us a good 25-40% overall boost.

That is, if Apple doesn't just bump the clock to 1.1GHz, and does nothing with the bus...

Jonathan Brisby

06-16-2002, 03:41 PM

[quote]Originally posted by There is no g5:
I swear, some of you will never be happy. Life is too short too be this worked up over a computer.

If you really believe life is better on the PC side, then buy a PC.

TinG5<hr></blockquote>

Amen! And on that note.....que the 1984 commercial music.....we need all true mac fans to gather close together. Bring weapons and food enough to last a few years. We will be relocating to an undisclosed location to weather out the storm post July NYM. Bring only your family, and only those memebers who have the mark of the fruit. We are one people, one mind, one body, one OS... Our enemies shall fall before us and we shall triumph.

PS, I would like to take this moment and give a shout out to my good friend steve jobs. I still believe in you!!!

spooky

06-16-2002, 03:44 PM

If the G4 gained a DDR MPX bus and clocked as high as 1.5GHz, it would compare favorably with the top end Athlons available now. That would be a damn near doubling of performance overnight, and you'd call that a small step?

Compare favourably with top end athlons? is that it? Not Toast top end athlons? Are we mac users now so easily impressed? By the time apple actually ships the machines the wintel world will have moved on again. At that point exactly which athlons will it compare favourably against by the time you receive the newly ordered 'Power' Mac?

jeromba

06-16-2002, 03:49 PM

for the RDF's lovers:
When did you saw Steve Jobs make a benchmark with Photoshop ? Last year at MWNY.
I bet we will see one this year with Photoshop 7 for X. And I think this will be 'grandiose' cuz of the new graphic architecture (and here I'm hoping that they will compare some video stuff between PC and Final Cut).
Maybe we will have only a 166 Mhz FSB but with 2 bus for each processor. Maybe we will have a full 266/333 FSB... who knows? But all is clear for a big announcement. I don't think we will have just a lame 1.2 Ghz with the same bus or an upgraded iPod. The sky is clear for the take off.

jeromba

06-16-2002, 03:53 PM

Jonathan Brisby

06-16-2002, 03:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:
 If the G4 gained a DDR MPX bus and clocked as high as 1.5GHz, it would compare favorably with the top end Athlons available now. That would be a damn near doubling of performance overnight, and you'd call that a small step?

Compare favourably with top end athlons? is that it? Not Toast top end athlons? Are we mac users now so easily impressed? By the time apple actually ships the machines the wintel world will have moved on again. At that point exactly which athlons will it compare favourably against by the time you receive the newly ordered 'Power' Mac?<hr></blockquote>

Just a question, but just what do you need with such awsome power? Unless you are a 3-D designer or head programmer at Adobe what's the BFD? Pick up any mac from the Apple Store, stick a geforce 4 in it, and slap a gig of ram in it. It can handle anything
you might throw at it. I don't think a processor measuring contest is in order. That is saved for high school locker rooms or unix boards. This is a mac world, and I believe my mac has a bigger backside cache then yours. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> So what's the big deal? Which one of your PC buddies is picking on you so much that you have to have a bigger stick to hit them back with. Try a new approach. When they raise their stick, burn it off with the Toasty-7 napalm pack from marathon and then buy them a cheerwine.

I thought the magic was in owning a mac, not building the highest duplo tower.

mslee

06-16-2002, 03:58 PM

A 1.5 GHz G4, with the requisite memory bandwidth would give an Athlon a run for its money. No, its not top-flight performance, but until MWSF in 2003, its the best we'll get.

The new IBM part we'll see at MWSF (and I am fairly confident IBM is behind the next gen PPC) will be an impressive performer.

Yet the G4 will continue to improve as it settles into the consumer and portable lines. The important distinction here is that Apple won't need MP in these lines, and will be able to have Motorola (or themselves) implement an on-chip DDR controller, since cache-coherency will no longer be an issue. The G4 in this form will be much like the P4 and Athlon in the sense that it will have a MUCH larger L2 cache (2x its current size) and may even gain RIO interconnects (this part is speculation), since Apple won't be using the MPX.

A second possibility is that Dorsal M is in fact an informed poster, in which case Apple may in fact pull some engineering feat to resolve the current bandwidth/MP issue (the issue is that an on-chip controller precludes MP, or comes at too high a price).

At any rate, I think you'll be quite happy with the performance of a G4 at 1.4 GHz, especially if they get some serious bandwidth in there.

But if top notch performance is what you crave, I recommend holding off until winter, when you'll be able to pick up the IBM part, the R300, as well as the next gen nVidia card.

mslee

06-16-2002, 04:01 PM

[quote]Sorry but Athlon processor are hitting the wall. Did you see the real Mhz upgrade ? It's really bad. They're ready for the next gen, they cannot do more with this generation. They even can compete with the PIV anymore.
And so here we are... we WILL have Gx ! Maybe in a year maybe in 6 months, but it's a given.
ANd Apple will compete in video and 3D. RDF full blast !<hr></blockquote>

what's more interesting is that AMD has stated that the Athlon is SOL WRT to SOI: especially considering that Moto and AMD have a process arrangement (wherein they share tech, but Moto leads the process). Did the partnership fall apart?

Gamblor

06-16-2002, 04:01 PM

Spooky, apparently you didn't get the main point of my post, so I'll quote it here with the important bit highlighted:

[quote]If the G4 gained a DDR MPX bus and clocked as high as 1.5GHz, it would compare favorably with the top end Athlons available now. That would be a damn near doubling of performance overnight, and you'd call that a small step?<hr></blockquote>

...

[quote]By the time apple actually ships the machines the wintel world will have moved on again. <hr></blockquote>

Moved on to where? To another 3-5% boost in performance that Intel/AMD have been shoveling out every few months for the past two years? The only thing that might result in a big boost for AMD's chips is the Hammer, and it's not due until next year. We're talking about what Apple might do in four weeks, so if Apple were to come out with something that matched current Athlon performance, how much could AMD immediately pull ahead? 10%? Are you really worried about such a paltry difference?

spooky

06-16-2002, 04:05 PM

xype

06-16-2002, 04:07 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Gamblor:
Moved on to where? To another 3-5% boost in performance that Intel/AMD have been shoveling out every few months for the past two years?<hr></blockquote>

Now that you say it - the Athlon XP was increasing it's speed by some 66 mhz at one step, right? It sounded more with the 1x00+ rating scheme though. I wonder how a 66 mhz speed boost on a G4 compares to an Athlong XP one.

GardenOfEarthlyDelights

06-16-2002, 04:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:

Compare favourably with top end athlons? is that it? Not Toast top end athlons? Are we mac users now so easily impressed? By the time apple actually ships the machines the wintel world will have moved on again. At that point exactly which athlons will it compare favourably against by the time you receive the newly ordered 'Power' Mac?<hr></blockquote>

What should we do? Click our heels three times and say, "There's a 2GHz G5, there's a 2GHz G5..."

Rant on forums explaining that Apple will be DOOMED for not having:

a) every cool thing under the sun
b) all of the above
..?

Is Steve (and Apple, by extension) intentionally keeping DDR, G5s, FW2 from us?

Come on.

If they could, they would, but they can't, so they haven't.

I'm not happy with the state of HW development at Apple, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Besides, I need the time to rant on other forums explaining why the Porsche 911 is actually a better car than the BMW M3. There are more important things in life, ya know.

Oh-- here's a pair of sarcasm tags to apply anywhere above:

edit: Premature end-of-ranting. It's a common problem for people my age.

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: GardenOfEarthlyDelights ]

Scott F.

06-16-2002, 04:25 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Brisby:


Just a question, but just what do you need with such awsome power? Unless you are a 3-D designer or head programmer at Adobe what's the BFD? Pick up any mac from the Apple Store, stick a geforce 4 in it, and slap a gig of ram in it. It can handle anything
you might throw at it. I don't think a processor measuring contest is in order. That is saved for high school locker rooms or unix boards. This is a mac world, and I believe my mac has a bigger backside cache then yours. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> So what's the big deal? Which one of your PC buddies is picking on you so much that you have to have a bigger stick to hit them back with. Try a new approach. When they raise their stick, burn it off with the Toasty-7 napalm pack from marathon and then buy them a cheerwine.

I thought the magic was in owning a mac, not building the highest duplo tower.<hr></blockquote>

I can mostly attest to that... I happen to BE a designer by profession that utilizes 3D and video... my 533MHz w/ 1.5GB of RAM does not get in it's own way. Like I said before... SURE! Anytime you render something... be it 3D, FCP3 composits or AfterEffects compositions... you ALWAYS want more... it's an insatiable apetite that will never go away... but alow me to "slightly" buy-into the MHz-Myth and to put "some" things in perspective.

I know we're sick of CAR metaphors... but here's another one:

Picture a Mac being an auto-maker (your choice) whose overall design and performance you like. For the sake of argument, I'll use BMW. They offer a range of autos that are (in general) more expensive than most other makers, but you enjoy their overall aesthetics, ergonomics and for the MOST part... performance.

Now... there are going to be OTHER cars out there that on paper have more cubic inches, or more horse power or some other aspect that will out-perform the BMW's engine...

Apple will NEVER... (did he say Never?) yep... NEVER be "The Best" at everything. There's always going to be something that someone else does "better" or "faster"... but the bottom line to me is... as far as productivity and enjoyment of my working environment (and yes, I have YEARS of experience on MANY Windoze flavors from 3.1 all the way up to NT and XP) I would MUCH rather be using my Mac at 533/1.5 than to be using a Dell (or other Intel Box) running a MicroSoft OS... not because I'm anti MS... but because I HATE using Windoze... I like some features... but the Mac OS beats 'em all... either 9.x OR 10.x... makes no diff.

Most of us that utilize the Mac to that level will get just what we need from it... let them worry about the speed increases on their end of things. I'm sure they are aware of their own standings. Anything that needs MASSIVE computing power, i.e. More than what a PowerMac G(?) can offer, can be run on the new Xserves for the REAL power-users.

*just realized this is getting long* - Sorry.

I'll wrap it up... I too will always want something faster... but stop & smell the roses... look what we have... great products running great software on a great OS. ALL of them have quirks & problems... but only a FRACTION of what Wintel user have. Enjoy it. Send Apple your feedback... let 'em know what you like, let 'em know what needs to improve... then "let-it-go" and enjoy what you have and let them worry about it. :)

Bring on MWNY!!! Even if they introduce an iPen that writes under water... I bet it will be BlueTooth compatable. ;)

- Scott

xype

06-16-2002, 04:27 PM

[quote]Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights:
Besides, I need the time to rant on other forums explaining why the Porsche 911 is actually a better car than the BMW M3. There are more important things in life, ya know.<hr></blockquote>

Duh! Because Porsche actually looks like a bad mean sports car and behaves like that! Now I wonder what kind of people actually think a M3 is a nice car anyway. Dey muzt bee crezzy!

Oh, and Audi RS6 all the way.

kupan787

06-16-2002, 05:15 PM

[quote]Originally posted by xype:


Duh! Because Porsche actually looks like a bad mean sports car and behaves like that! Now I wonder what kind of people actually think a M3 is a nice car anyway. Dey muzt bee crezzy!

Oh, and Audi RS6 all the way.<hr></blockquote>

M3, no. But the M5, now you are talking :)

That is my dream car right now (I am only 18 so saving up 70 grand could take awhile). But those things are nice (interior wise and sound system) plus they are fast.

VaporTrails

06-16-2002, 05:23 PM

[quote]Originally posted by ZoSo:


Oh well, I like my Titanium well enough--though with X is slower than my old iBook running 9... Well, I guess that's why we pay the friggin' price premium, right? </sarcasm>

:D

ZoSo<hr></blockquote>

I work as a programmer/webdeveloper. My main tool for this is a PB G4 running OS X. I installed OS X by just slamming it on top of the working os 9 I had. It's my 5:th Mac alltogether (still got my 1st, 2nd and 3rd running without a hardware problem ever). [Edit: Just remembered I had a new mouse after 2 months with my 1st Mac. And that my 3rd had a minor problem with the monitor. Just 4 the record...]

After my work hours, I come home and plug the same worktool to my MOTU FW Audio interface, boot in to 9 and run LogicAudio with 25-30 channels of audio and about as many plug-ins.

Stable.

That, my friends is why we pay premium for Macs.. :)

You just can't do that on a PC. No matter how fast it is. For Pro/Semi-pro audio to work on the dark side you have to strip the system down so it can't be used to do anything else. That's why they're cheaper. At least in my opinion.

And then there is the question of speed. It's just fine by me. My PB spend most of it's day wating for me anyway. . :)

I can understand guys and girls doing heavy 3D work that they want premium speed. I have tried some (very basic) 3D and know that the wait is frustrating. Speed is in it's place there. Or one can do what my 3D working PC friends does...render at night while you sleep... ;)

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: VaporTrails ]

Mike

06-16-2002, 05:24 PM

[quote]Originally posted by kupan787:

That is my dream car right now (I am only 18 so saving up 70 grand could take awhile). But those things are nice (interior wise and sound system) plus they are fast.<hr></blockquote>

M5 here too. I'm waiting to see what Cadillac comes out with first and to see what the 03 M5 will be like.

spooky...(no rant intended)

In regards to your company moving away from macs due to lack of "latest technology" I submit that this is very stup on managments part.

My partner runs some VERY large graphics centers for magazines and they are switching all of their graphics centers AWAY from windows back to macs. Why? The one mac based graphics center was 1/3 to 1/4 the cost per page when compared to the windows based centers.

What's funny is that the Windows Graphics Stations were nice stations (not a 2.4Ghz PIV but still nice). What did they switch to? iMac's, G4 733's and G4 800's. Were they the faster machines at the time? No. Was the IT department happy about the switch? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, 1/2 of the it staff is going to loose their jobs because they are no longer needed!

So, by moving back to macs they were able to cut page production costs by 75% and cut high salary staff.

Scott F.

06-16-2002, 05:34 PM

[quote]Originally posted by VaporTrails:
I can understand guys and girls doing heavy 3D work that they want premium speed. I have tried some (very basic) 3D and know that the wait is frustrating. Speed is in it's place there. Or one can do what my 3D working PC friends does...render at night while you sleep... ;) <hr></blockquote>

Well... it's not just the "rendering" speed that is the slow-down for 3D work... it's the OpenGL speed, the speed of the UI when displaying complex scenes with tens of thousands of polygons, doing "test-renders" of surfaces, etc.

I always do my "Final Renders" at night or if I'm going out for a while. You need to do a lot of test renders though.

Picture "comitting" to a specific reverb or delay on a vocal track without hearing it first... is it the right speed...? regeneration...? depth...? dry/wet mix...? If it took 7-Hours to render the audio file, you'd be damn sure to test the setting on a snippet of audio first to make sure you like it before wasting 7-Hours of render time.

That's what happens with 3D work (at least in MY world).

pey/coy-ote

06-16-2002, 05:37 PM

Welcome VaporTrails
Thanks for the post what a great first entry ! :) :) :)

VaporTrails

06-16-2002, 06:07 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott F.:


Well... it's not just the "rendering" speed that is the slow-down for 3D work... it's the OpenGL speed, the speed of the UI when displaying complex scenes with tens of thousands of polygons, doing "test-renders" of surfaces, etc.

I always do my "Final Renders" at night or if I'm going out for a while. You need to do a lot of test renders though.

Picture "comitting" to a specific reverb or delay on a vocal track without hearing it first... is it the right speed...? regeneration...? depth...? dry/wet mix...? If it took 7-Hours to render the audio file, you'd be damn sure to test the setting on a snippet of audio first to make sure you like it before wasting 7-Hours of render time.

That's what happens with 3D work (at least in MY world).<hr></blockquote>

Well, I've just done very basic explorations of the 3D world some years ago....mainly in EIAS 2.8-2.9. So I stand humbly corrected there... :)

However, I come from jurassic times when you actually HAD to render reverbs to snippets of audio...even if it just took a couple of minutes back then, you had to do it again (for each track) for the final mix almost every time to get the balance right. So I know a little how you 3D masters must feel... ;) Hold on though...I'm shure your time will come soon...

[quote]Originally posted by pey/coy-ote.:

Welcome VaporTrails
Thanks for the post what a great first entry !
<hr></blockquote>

Thanks....it's great to be here. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

Amorph

06-16-2002, 10:32 PM

Programmer

06-16-2002, 11:15 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:


That's gotta suck.

But it sounds like a lot of the problem is the lack of a workstation grade video card. That won't affect the final render, but (if I understand things right) it will accelerate the previews.

The only thing Apple can do about that is either hope for really nice stuff from ATi or nVIDIA (since Matrox seems to still be pissed about the RTMac...) or to give one of the workstation card makers some incentive to develop Mac drivers.

Actually, I think ATi and nVIDIA will come through, if what I've heard about this summer's offerings is true.<hr></blockquote>

I keep hearing that these "workstation" graphics chips are just so much better than the consumer level boards... but just recently I read a review which compared the latest and greatest of the "workstation" cards against nVidia and ATIs offerings in that market. ATI was significantly behind, but nVidia was really close and in a few ways considerably out ahead. I think its time to put to rest the notion that nVidia can't compete in the "high end" market. Their next chipset ought to really put an exclamation point at the end of that statement.

xype

06-16-2002, 11:18 PM

[quote]Originally posted by kupan787:
M3, no. But the M5, now you are talking :) <hr></blockquote>

The M5 is nice, but the Audi RS6 Avant is what I'd love to have!

<a href="http://www.audi.com/de/de/neuwagen/a6/rs_6/rs_6.jsp" target="_blank">Audi RS6</a>

xype

06-16-2002, 11:36 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
But it sounds like a lot of the problem is the lack of a workstation grade video card. That won't affect the final render, but (if I understand things right) it will accelerate the previews.<hr></blockquote>

Actually the latest and greatest (prosumer) offers from ATI and NVidia are really fast. Thing is, when people made tests with those cards they came to the conclusion that those cards are really CPU and bandwidth-limited when it comes to higher resoltuion scenes.

For games, that often wont need to handle more than 25.000 textured and lighted triangles, one can do fine with a ~ 1ghz pc or a 800 mhz mac. But when it comes to "pro" scenes those triangle counts go into 100.000 thousands and that's something completely different to process.

From what I know that's exactly the reason why SGI is (was?) doing so well in the pro 3D market - SGI machines have hight bandwidth and while they may work at 500 mhz they can pump whole lots of data around. I'm not sure how many registers the MIPS CPUs have, but I somewhere heared that they had more than 4 times (or more?) as much data registers as pcs had at that time.

So while "pro" cards help a bit the CPU/bus soon becomes the bottleneck, given that you don't run out of RAM first.

Barto

06-16-2002, 11:36 PM

Educated Guess DDR Timeline:

Pre September 1999 Motorola and Apple get on well and prepare the 7400+Sawtooth motherboard.

September 1999: G4 Released, Motorola and Apple prepare the 7450+DA Motherboard.

500MHz stall, management problems at Motorola and Apple

January 2000: 7450+Power to Burn G4s Released, Apple prepares a DDR motherboard, Motorola screws up and gets engineers working on a DDR MPX bus.

July 2001: Apple delays DDR motherboard to add features to compensate for 133MHz MPX (mini-DSPs on the memory bus, DMA, etc), Motorola possibly informs Apple that DDR MPX has been canned, 166MHz bump possible.

January 2002: DDR motherboard delayed further.

Motorola Announces to the world that 166Mhz is the possible improvement they will make to MPX.

July 2002: DDR motherboard delayed again and Xserve chipset used for the Power Macs, or the DDR motherboard finally arrives.

DDR motherboard released in the following 6 months, or the DDR motherboard conficts with a G5/Power4/whatever motherboard and is used in non-Power Macs instead.

New CPUs

An IBM G5 for Power Macs appears unlikely. Motorola claims it is ahead of IBM in terms of the G5. IBM also uses the PowerPC as an embedded CPU, not high-end embedded/desktop like Motorola.

Apple has to worry about the non-Power Macs, which need lower power CPUs. A Power4 in an iMac? I don't think so.

However, if IBM diversifies the Power4 (produces 1 and 2 core CPUs, with and without L3 cache) then I could see them being used. Motorola looks like a sinking ship, so instead of trying to get the PowerPC to run faster to compete, why not get the Power4 to run slower (much easier)?

IBM appears to be diversifying the Power4 (the "Power4 Diversification Manager" post in another thread), so it seems the logical choice.

Something Competely Different™? I doubt it. Companies all take certain levels of risks. Why would Apple want to risk getting Intel or AMD involved in the PowerPC? Why would Intel or AMD get involved in the PowerPC? They're both loss-making, and they are traditional companies. Making a loss? Focus on your core product lines. Don't do Something Completely Different™ unless absolutly necessary.

So, Power4 Dual-Core for Power-Macs, Single-Core for e/iMacs/Portables/Xserves? Something along those lines is, IMHO going to become reality.

When? Well, the Power4 has been shipping for a while now. So anytime in the next 12 months seems probable. I mean, if IBM (for example) finished the Power4 a year ago, then they probably moved straight on to a new project. In this case, not making it faster but slower :eek: . 2 years for a downgrade to an existing CPU doesn't seem unreasonable. 1 year would seem resonable except for the fact that they'll have to ramp up production for Apple.

The existance of an Apple Workstation?

Unlikely. Give the Xserve clustering software, and for less than a square meter of floor space you have the 50th fastest computer in the world. Why bother develop a new computer when there is one available, itching for some software?

Changes to the Power Mac

The Power Mac is for anywhere a powerful, expandable desktop computer is needed. Unis, graphics design, etc. So, apart from speed, what would help these people? PCI-Express (formally 3GIO, formally Apharoe) is promising cartrage-based expansion cards. FireWire is hot swappable. Panasonic has native FireWire (do a search in Current Hardware) Hard Drives. So, PCI-Express and FireWire Hard Drives would be insanly great for easy upgrades. I won't even try to guess the next PowerMac form factor.

Rapid-I/O looks cool. Imagine this: a Rapid-I/O switch connecting a PCI-Express chip, IC and the CPU daughtercard. On the CPU daugtercard sits an Rapid-I/O switch for 2, 4, 8, whatever number of CPUs. The memory is on the daugtercard, controlled by the CPUs. Upgrade the daugtercard, upgrade the number of CPUs and the speed of the memory. Sound cool, doesn't it?

Summing up my guesses

Mac World New York 2002: Pessimistic for the Power Mac. DDR Sawtooth.

Mac World San Franciso 2003: Apple has good management, stops the feature creep and releases a next-gen DDR motherboard (which means some features like 802.11g and bluetooth don't make it).

Mac World New York 2003: A Power4 motherboard is released, with PCI-Express, a new IC, 802.11g and bluetooth. FireWire hard drives on Power Macs, offering it as an alternative to Serial-ATA.

To those who say: Apple will never have the best, and there is only going to be improvements, nothing completely new, thats true of now. However, Apple used to have the best. The iMac is completely new. The Power Mac will be completely new sometime, too.

Barto

xype

06-16-2002, 11:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Barto:
Mac World New York 2002: Pessimistic for the Power Mac. DDR Sawtooth.<hr></blockquote>

Like many other have stated before I really do wonder what Apple would introduce at MWNY then - iPad is not that a great idea, speed buming the whole product lines for about 100 mhz wont make the crowd any happier.

Maybe PowerBook and PowerMac will be scrapped and ProBook and ProMac introduced? I can't imagine Steve coming on stage and saying "Soo... basically Aqua looks great, Jaguar will be a bit faster and all the computers get a 100mhz bump. ...oh, and one more thing! iPhoto 2.0 is out NOW! Let me show you how GREAT it is!"

A few people would start crying I'd imagine... :p

Scott F.

06-17-2002, 12:11 AM

[quote]Originally posted by xype:
 A few people would start crying I'd imagine... :p <hr></blockquote>

Crying...? :)

Steve better make sure the chairs are bolted down if that's all he announced... hehehe...

:eek:

Leonis

06-17-2002, 12:34 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott F.:


Crying...? :)

Steve better make sure the chairs are bolted down if that's all he announced... hehehe...

:eek: <hr></blockquote>

Not only that. He has to talk to the security department that to do a scan to every audience before he/she gets into the conference room.

Steve

06-17-2002, 12:43 AM

Nah, I have a feeling he'll be able to protect himself with the camera-hurling defense mechanism he's perfecting for nine months...

yurin8or

06-17-2002, 01:03 AM

Jebus! Steve is under a lot of pressure to produce at MWNY. :D

costique

06-17-2002, 02:07 AM

The thread has almost gone off the rails.
To those who can only compare Athlons to G4s: listen to Steve Jobs about MHz myth ;) and better compare Windows XP to Mac OS X. I suspect you'll prefer a G4@1GHz with OS X rather than a P8@5GHz with XP.

Just calm down and see what Apple has to offer. THEN either start crying or buy a new Mac.

cinder

06-17-2002, 02:37 AM

Dorsal needs to publish more dirt to get this thing back on track.

Hurry!

:D

jeromba

06-17-2002, 04:24 AM

yes I'm waiting too. C'mon Dorsal !

xype

06-17-2002, 06:15 AM

[quote]Originally posted by jeromba:
yes I'm waiting too. C'mon Dorsal !<hr></blockquote>
Don't push him - the longer he takes, the better stuff he can think off! :p

Telomar

06-17-2002, 07:16 AM

[quote]Originally posted by spooky:
Is the 64bit G5 coming? Apparently not. <hr></blockquote>

I really seriously doubt 95% of the people on these boards truly have any use what-so-ever for a full 64-bit processor. Whether the next chip is 64-bit or 32 bit won't really make too much difference except as a marketing gimmick.

 [quote]Is Aqua finally gonna work quickly? Apparently not. <hr></blockquote>

Actually from what I have seen Jaguar offers significant improvements performance wise. Is it perfect? Not really but it works fast enough.

 [quote] FW2? Apparently not. <hr></blockquote>

Funnily enough I'm not really sure where that is coming from. Firewire 2 should be appearing right around the time new powermacs would (late summer).

It isn't too big a leap of faith to say Apple would probably delay the next powermacs slightly if necessary so they could claim leadership in this area.

ZoSo

06-17-2002, 07:28 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Telomar:
I really seriously doubt 95% of the people on these boards truly have any use what-so-ever for a full 64-bit processor. Whether the next chip is 64-bit or 32 bit won't really make too much difference except as a marketing gimmick.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah right, 640KB should more than enough for everybody... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

Apple is already trying the impossible: convincing the masses that MHz don't really matter. Next what, are we gonna have--come MWSF2003--Steve enlightening us on the "64-bit myth"? That'd be simply ridiculous... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

ZoSo

DaveLee

06-17-2002, 07:31 AM

[quote] Originally posted by Telomar
Whether the next chip is 64-bit or 32 bit won't really make too much difference except as a marketing gimmick <hr></blockquote>

That is precisely why Apple needs something to counter it.

By the time SF comes around, you can bet that AMD will have launched the Opteron at 3600+ and Intel will be at 2.8 GHz at least.

Marketing is everything (look at the consoles).

[Edit: ZoSo beat me to it ;) ]

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: DaveLee ]

ZoSo

06-17-2002, 07:43 AM

[quote]Originally posted by DaveLee:
Marketing is everything (look at the consoles).

[Edit: ZoSo beat me to it ;) ]<hr></blockquote>

That's precisely what I was referring to. :)

ZoSo

krusty76

06-17-2002, 07:52 AM

[quote]Originally posted by xype:


So you had a chance to try it already? Or how do you know so precisely?<hr></blockquote>

i don't know if he has had a chance to use it, but i have been running 10.2 for about two or three weeks now and i must say i am impressed. i have just recently installed the 6c48 build which improves even further.

my point-of-view? an iBook (dual usb) running at a measly 500MHz. this used to feel pretty pathetic as recently as 10.1.5, but menus are instantaneous now ... and most window draws are substantially improved. i've only taken advantage of general use and have not played with the DVD player or other "nifty" features.

just thought you might be interested. :D

ZoSo

06-17-2002, 07:54 AM

[quote]Originally posted by DaveLee:
By the time SF comes around, you can bet that AMD will have launched the Opteron at 3600+ and Intel will be at 2.8 GHz at least.<hr></blockquote>

I'd like to elaborate some more on this, since you offered such a great example.

The Hammer family will not only be a 64-bit family--it's already (see the early tests on the prototypes) a huge accomplishment efficiency-wise. The Opteron is already 40% (or so THG quoted some e-zine saying) faster than an Athlon at the same clock speed executing non-optimized 32-bit code. :eek:

That's no 64-bit myth, that's a hell of great design... Apple simply can't afford to be left behind on this issue, period. We need a 64-bit PowerPC CPU, because so the market dictates.
[Edit: or so it will in less than 6 months]

ZoSo

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: ZoSo ]

G-News

06-17-2002, 08:11 AM

fact is that for 32bit applications, a 64bit cpu is going to be around 5% slower than a 32bit cpu of the "same architecture and speed" (as far as this is possible), because the 64bit CPU is spending more time for addressing RAM.

So, at the moment, 64bit CPUs are not going to give us what we want. As long as the OS and the apps don't take advantage of it, 64bit is only interestnig to science and really heavy computing tasks.

Only because 64bit is twice the bits of 32bit, doesn't mean its also twice as fast...

You should have some reads over at anandtech and ars for further info.

G_news

PS: that means that the opteron is faster than the athlon , because of the design, not because it's a 64bit chip.

G_News

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: G-News ]

Jonathan Brisby

06-17-2002, 09:00 AM

I would wager that we've gotten everything out of all the 'sources' that they can divuldge. Remember how hush hush things are at Apple prior to any major announcment? The sales reps, service reps, marketing people, and even many of their suppliers are clueless. Usually the best we can do is get wind of the announcment 1-2 days prior to show time. But honestly...who ISN'T going to be glued to their broadband connection during the keynote? I sure as heck will! Rain or shine, I'll be on time.

Steve Jobs for President
"My fellow Americans...please send all your pc's to the hungry kids in india so they can manufacture missle guidance systems based on windows. That way halfway over the atlantic they'll have a lock up and fall out of the sky. With the start of the new fiscal year I will be donating 1 computer per student to every school in the US which changes it's name to Macintosh, Apple, Steve Jobs, or iWhatever High/Middle/Elementary. In this way we will create a new bread of human, impervious to the tempation of the Microsoftian Dark Side. We will never agian feel the breath of such industry giant's as themselves on the back of our necks, and over our keyboads. Our creative juices will flow and our minds will act as one. Together, we shall prevail!"

Thus ends the dream. Was it a vision? A day dream? An erotic fantasy? Or just stale pizza? Time will tell...

thuh Freak

06-17-2002, 09:35 AM

[quote] /fantastical story ommitted./ Thus ends the dream. Was it a vision? A day dream? An erotic fantasy? Or just stale pizza? Time will tell... <hr></blockquote>

methinks it was a prophecy. or ganja.

/edit:i didn't really edit this post. i'm just tryin' to freak out squares./

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: thuh Freak ]

Dorsal M

06-17-2002, 09:58 AM

There will be an e500 core based desktop processor based on Apple's requirements. The e500 core is a 7 stage pipeline design very similar to the 7455 core (they both get about 2300MIPS). The execution units are very similar, in quantity and performance. There is an Altivec add on built for the e500. Apple's implimentation has dual RIO ports and a memory controller. The interconnect is the e500 native OCEAN and this is a wide/fast bus, only for on die interconnects. Multiprocessing in handled via RapidIO's 16 bit variant. It connects to a RapidIO hub (RIOH) that serves as the central hub for various RIO devices, such as peripheral controllers, PCI controllers, other PowerPC processors, network processors, etc. The hub controls the bit width and frequency, and this is determined by the distance from the hub (trace length). If both processors are proximate to the RIOH then you can have them connect at a low overhead 16bit wide RIO tunnel at a 2GHz freqency. To connect to a PCI controller you can keep the 16 bit wide port or if pin out is an issue you may need to drop it to 8 bit and run it at a lower frequency such as 500MHz. RIO is capable of over 7GBps bandwidth running at 16bit.

The beauty of Book E is the modularity. The way Motorola designed it was so a customer can pick and choose the components. this was as long as the customer had the money to spend as I imagine this is not an inexpensive proposistion. But it is an ideal solution for Apple. They can choose the size of the L2 cache, number of e500 cores, kind of memory controllers available, if they wanted a PCI controller also embedded... And rumor is that e500 core will soon be joined by another high performance core.

Sybaritic

06-17-2002, 10:02 AM

Good God, Dorsal. You're talking candiness! If this is true, it sounds like an ideal situation for both companies. Allow for customization while providing for a powerful base.

Please be real!

-----------------------------------------
Under the Dorsal Fin in Nashvegas

KidRed

06-17-2002, 10:07 AM

So then the people that said Apple canceled the G5 order with Moto are full of crap?

Jonathan Brisby

06-17-2002, 10:13 AM

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
So then the people that said Apple canceled the G5 order with Moto are full of crap?<hr></blockquote>

PC users posing as Children of The Divine Mac are always full of crap. I still hold that Apple has more in store for us then we bargained for. It will be "Thank you for coming to the Keynote, my name is SJ, and I am iCEO of Apple. Today I have a surprise for you...the (fill in the blank).
{insert ooh's and aah's here)

Programmer

06-17-2002, 10:20 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:
There will be an e500 core based desktop processor based on Apple's requirements. The e500 core is a 7 stage pipeline design very similar to the 7455 core (they both get about 2300MIPS). The execution units are very similar, in quantity and performance. There is an Altivec add on built for the e500. Apple's implimentation has dual RIO ports and a memory controller. The interconnect is the e500 native OCEAN and this is a wide/fast bus, only for on die interconnects. Multiprocessing in handled via RapidIO's 16 bit variant. It connects to a RapidIO hub (RIOH) that serves as the central hub for various RIO devices, such as peripheral controllers, PCI controllers, other PowerPC processors, network processors, etc. The hub controls the bit width and frequency, and this is determined by the distance from the hub (trace length). If both processors are proximate to the RIOH then you can have them connect at a low overhead 16bit wide RIO tunnel at a 2GHz freqency. To connect to a PCI controller you can keep the 16 bit wide port or if pin out is an issue you may need to drop it to 8 bit and run it at a lower frequency such as 500MHz. RIO is capable of over 7GBps bandwidth running at 16bit.

The beauty of Book E is the modularity. The way Motorola designed it was so a customer can pick and choose the components. this was as long as the customer had the money to spend as I imagine this is not an inexpensive proposistion. But it is an ideal solution for Apple. They can choose the size of the L2 cache, number of e500 cores, kind of memory controllers available, if they wanted a PCI controller also embedded... And rumor is that e500 core will soon be joined by another high performance core.<hr></blockquote>

Nothing outlandish here, but no timeframe given... 8540 is going into sampling soon, so it may be plausible that Moto's single most visible customer could get preferential treatment. Next year is more likely though. Technically there is nothing outlandish about this post. Dorsal seems to be getting better at "well grounded" posts. :)

Reminder: The e500 core is a 64-bit PowerPC.

JCG

06-17-2002, 10:27 AM

The comments about Motorolla are promising, but I would like to hear more on this:

[quote] You will see a collaboration with another hardware company, but this will not surprise some of you in the know.<hr></blockquote>

I doubt that this hardware company is Sony, and I would like it to be IBM...Other likely candidates are ATI and Nvidia. I guess that there is an outside chance for an AMD collaberation based on rumours as well...

Programmer

06-17-2002, 10:33 AM

[quote]Originally posted by JCG:
I doubt that this hardware company is Sony, and I would like it to be IBM...Other likely candidates are ATI and Nvidia. I guess that there is an outside chance for an AMD collaberation based on rumours as well...<hr></blockquote>

My money is on nVidia.

Lemon Bon Bon

06-17-2002, 10:37 AM

My money is on Nvidia also. Given their recent hint.

So, Programmer, the e500, if it can have 'more than one core' could be dual core?

:confused:

If...Apple wishes it?

Lemon Bon Bon <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

sCreeD

06-17-2002, 10:38 AM

I took this:
And rumor is that e500 core will soon be joined by another high performance core.

to be a reference to the previous comment about collaboration with another company.

Another core? A different core?! <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

Screed ...mayhaps I'm reading this incorrectly.

Lemon Bon Bon

06-17-2002, 10:41 AM

"Another core? A different core?! "

Different? And what would that 'other' and 'different' core do?

In effect, Apple can lego build their ripost to Itanic 2 and Sledgehammer?

Dorsal, are you saying that the e500 is similar in performance to the G4 bar the fact it is 64 bit? Extra integer? No extra fpu units? The altivec? No 256 bit version? Will its frequency start at the oft stated 2 gighz?

So...the way forward is to increase frequency? And maybe stick two of them together...dual core?

Sounds exciting but...with a note of caution on a same mhz performance. But if it starts at 2 gig then...that offsets that..? Can 7 stage pipeline stretch to 2 gighz frequency? The Hammer is doing better on same frequency...up to 40%!

Modularity. So. It's looking like San Fran if the e500 is sampling now?

Lemon Bon Bon <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]

jeromba

06-17-2002, 10:46 AM

This is what i fond about the e500 core on the motorola web site:
Developper Forum July 21-24, 2002
Motorola and IBM have announced the embedded version of the PowerPC architecture (Book E), and implementations are beginning to emerge. This session will address the impact on user applications and real-time operating systems, and the advantages of migrating to Book E. These issues and others about the coming transition will be answered by the designer of and principal contributor to the PowerPC Programming Environments Manual.

Interesting...

jeromba

06-17-2002, 10:49 AM

the e500 can be dual core (maybe quad, octo?)
There is a diagram on motorola web site. Look for the MPC8540FACT.pdf
That diagram shows that each core has in own bus memory ! If we keep in mind that the e500 core is 600-1000 Mhz, we can have this:
1.2 / 2.0 / 2.4 / 4.0 Ghz WOW! (just for dual and quad).

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: jeromba ]

JCG

06-17-2002, 11:07 AM

[quote]Originally posted by jeromba:
the e500 can be dual core (maybe quad, octo?)
There is a diagram on motorola web site. Look for the MPC8540FACT.pdf
That diagram shows that each core has in own bus memory ! If we keep in mind that the e500 core is 600-1000 Mhz, we can have this:
1.2 / 2.0 / 2.4 / 4.0 Ghz WOW! (just for dual and quad).

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: jeromba ]<hr></blockquote>

If myy understanding of multi-core chips is correct, they are basically a MP design on one die. You would have a 600 mhz-1 Ghz for all of those chips, just like you have a Dual 1 Ghz MP tower, not a 2 Ghz tower now.

jeromba

06-17-2002, 11:14 AM

yes sorry you're right but that's the name of it that do me wrong... e500 core...
some pics to clear some minds:
http://www.viceversa.be/MPC8540.jpg
http://www.viceversa.be/e500.jpg

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: jeromba ]

DaveLee

06-17-2002, 11:38 AM

So...

Dorsal posts with what is a reasonably pragmatic, reasonably expected G4 system at NY.

Then he goes and spoils it by posting some desirable G5 snippet. With no clue about timeframe.

Drat.

SteveS

06-17-2002, 11:58 AM

Just for fun, I'll add my 2 cents to the topics in this thread.

Dorsal

I remain neutral on my opinion of his actual knowledge of future Apple products. All I know is his past posts have included a range of Mobos for his company to review. When he's correct on one of his vague predictions, people begin the chant... Dorsal, Dorsal... Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading his posts as much as the next person. It's just that I've seen a wide range of products he supposedly tested. These wide range of motherboards also seem to reflect what has been discussed as possibilities anyway. My point - though his posts are generally interesting, I've seen nothing substantial to make me believe he truly has inside information. If his prediction of Apple working with another company (such as nVidia -N Force ), then I might start to take his posts more seriously. Until then, it's sheer entertainment for me.

Workstation graphics

The difference between high end graphics cards (like Oxygen) and high end consumer cards (nVidia Geforce 4 Ti) are diminishing very quickly. That is, the consumer cards are advancing at a much faster rate. The main difference used to be the much larger amount of texture memory and the onboard TC&L engines, etc.

Also, someone posted that games use something like 10,000 polygons per scene and pro scenes use something like 100,000 polygons. The thing is, the newer game engines are using polygon counts in the 100,000 range. The older Quake 3 and UT used closer to 10,000 polygons per scene. However, I read an article that was talking about the game engine in Unreal 2 (and UT 2003). One tree in the scene used more polygons than an entire scene in the previous generation game engine. The same is true with engine used in the upcoming Doom 3.

Jobs/Apple Doomed

Finally, those that think Jobs is going to have objects thrown at him for coming out with "only" dual 1.2 GHZ G4s, etc. have obviously never been to a Macworld event. RDF is in full force. It even works on PC types (trust me, I've seen it). Seriously though, this type of nonsense is said both before and after just about every Macworld event. Apple is not doomed for being behind in MHZ. Anyone that understands the fundamental difference between PCs and Macs knows this. Companies don't just flip flop on hardware platforms based on what someone else is doing. If Apple were to truly stagnate for any long period of time, then, they might be in trouble. However, even during the 18 month G4 stagnation, Apple was able to hold out by offering multiple processors, etc.

Steve

There is no g5

06-17-2002, 12:19 PM

The other 'core': IBM's 'Cell' Project.

TING5

Addison

06-17-2002, 12:46 PM

With the kind of power described here, it is obvious that Apple will have a replacement for powermacs but that they might leap in price. That would leave room for an SE iMac with either a 17 or 19" screen to fill the low end of the pro-market. If the chip is really that modular then it will allow Apple to introduce a "SuperMac" with maybe 4 or 8 cores to take the market straight out from under SGI's feet.

:D

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Addison ]

sCreeD

06-17-2002, 12:49 PM

[quote]Originally posted by There is no g5:
The other 'core': IBM's 'Cell' Project.

TING5<hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010313S0113" target="_blank">IBM, Sony, Toshiba team on processor architecture for broadband</a>

[quote]Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCEI), IBM Corp. and Toshiba Corp. announced a major partnership aimed at creating a processor architecture — code-named Cell — that will be optimized for multimedia packet processing over the broadband network.<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

[quote]The goal is to have the first Cell products ready by 2004 or 2005, based on a "10S" 100-nm (0.10-micron) process technology that moves to commercial production early in 2003 at IBM.<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

Screed

Bodhi

06-17-2002, 12:55 PM

Keep in mind that everything Dorsal said is publiclly available. Perfect example is that diagram from Motorola's site.

Not discounting what Dorsal is saying...just trying to keep things in perspective.

haderach

06-17-2002, 01:19 PM

There will be an e500 core based desktop processor based on Apple's requirements. The e500 core is a 7 stage pipeline design very similar to the 7455 core (they both get about 2300MIPS). The execution units are very similar, in quantity and performance.

Well, I would say that the e500 and the 7455 core are "similar", although not "very similar"... Did you really get MPC7500 prototypes as you reported a few months ago? I have only seen block diagrams and text so far, and I couldn't find anyone who could confirm the 7500 is really sampling. Maybe we should note that the e500 (as I know it) is a pure 32 bit design, 64 bits will be introduced with an e500 successor.

There is an Altivec add on built for the e500.

As far as I can say Altivec has been implemented as APU, connected to the e500 via OCEAN. It seems the same is true for the FPU, it looks like the FPU is not part of the e500 itself. I hope this doesn't affect the performance in a negative way.

Apple's implimentation has dual RIO ports and a memory controller. The interconnect is the e500 native OCEAN and this is a wide/fast bus, only for on die interconnects.

On the block diagrams I saw the memory controller was the same as the 8540 controller, this means 266/333 Mhz DDR on a 133/166 Mhz Bus.

Multiprocessing in handled via RapidIO's 16 bit variant. It connects to a RapidIO hub (RIOH) that serves as the central hub for various RIO devices, such as peripheral controllers, PCI controllers, other PowerPC processors, network processors, etc. The hub controls the bit width and frequency, and this is determined by the distance from the hub (trace length). If both processors are proximate to the RIOH then you can have them connect at a low overhead 16bit wide RIO tunnel at a 2GHz freqency. To connect to a PCI controller you can keep the 16 bit wide port or if pin out is an issue you may need to drop it to 8 bit and run it at a lower frequency such as 500MHz. RIO is capable of over 7GBps bandwidth running at 16bit.

This will rock, hehe...

The beauty of Book E is the modularity. The way Motorola designed it was so a customer can pick and choose the components.

Right, customers can even design their own circuits an connect them as APUs via the OCEAN crossbar switch.

this was as long as the customer had the money to spend as I imagine this is not an inexpensive proposistion. But it is an ideal solution for Apple. They can choose the size of the L2 cache, number of e500 cores, kind of memory controllers available, if they wanted a PCI controller also embedded...

Ethernet is also available as component, although I do not believe this will be implemented directly into the CPU.

And rumor is that e500 core will soon be joined by another high performance core.

As far as I know they're working on a high performance 64 bit version of the core, but I have no information about when this could be ready (I even can't say when the e500 based 7500 will be ready, I guess Dorsal can tell us more about possible release dates).

naepstn

06-17-2002, 02:13 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SteveS:
Workstation graphics

The difference between high end graphics cards (like Oxygen) and high end consumer cards (nVidia Geforce 4 Ti) are diminishing very quickly. That is, the consumer cards are advancing at a much faster rate. The main difference used to be the much larger amount of texture memory and the onboard TC&L engines, etc.
<hr></blockquote>

From what I have heard, a large part of the difference between high-end workstation graphics cards and the consumer versions comes down to the drivers. Pro cards have their drivers certified by a third-party QC certification entity for things like CAD accuracy need to be very free of bugs. Some cards' drivers are specially tuned for certain applications. An example of this is the ATI Mobility Fire GL™ 7800 (used in the IBM A-series mobile workstations), which is in fact the same card as the Radeon Mobility 7500, but with certified drivers, optimized for optimum OpenGL performance. Presumably, this is at the expense of performance in other areas, which is not suitable for consumer/prosumer use (including 2D graphics).

As for the use/need for 64-bit processors, while I agree that it is unnecessary for most people, it is crucial for marketing and market-share. Apple can once again claim to be leading in hardware innovation, and if it results in leading-edge benchmarks in high-end database and scientific computing, then IT-folks will have a new respect for Apple products and will be less likely to spout crap about Apple products being underpowered. It's hard to make that argument when someone can retort with high-end computing benchmarks.

Programmer

06-17-2002, 02:34 PM

[quote]Originally posted by haderach:

Well, I would say that the e500 and the 7455 core are "similar", although not "very similar"... Did you really get MPC7500 prototypes as you reported a few months ago? I have only seen block diagrams and text so far, and I couldn't find anyone who could confirm the 7500 is really sampling. Maybe we should note that the e500 (as I know it) is a pure 32 bit design, 64 bits will be introduced with an e500 successor.
<hr></blockquote>

Hmmm... you're right. For some reason I thought that the e500 was 64-bit, but I can't find anything to indicate that it is. It makes sense then that the new core will be the 64-bit one. I wonder if IBM is designing the 64-bit core? That would be odd, wouldn't it...

The OCEAN cross-bar is capable of 128 Gb/sec (=16 GB/sec), which doesn't seem all that fast... but its on-chip so its speed will be a function of clock rate and the highest they mention is 1 GHz. At 2 GHz it'll be twice as fast. Its also not clear if that is the point-to-point speed, or the overall net throughput through the entire cross-bar. It should be fast enough for now, however. It sounds like it could let Apple put multiple FPUs and VPUs onto the chip. This kind of an architecture should really suit Apple well since it can custom build its own designs.

A multi-core design would have more than one e500 core connected via the OCEAN switch. They'd probably share the on-chip bus/cache/memory controller.

I doubt we'll see it this year though (although I'd love to be surprised on this one!).

BobtheTomato

06-17-2002, 02:35 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Brisby:
 In this way we will create a new bread of human,<hr></blockquote>

Soylent Green ?

speechgod

06-17-2002, 02:36 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:
 If both processors are proximate to the RIOH then you can have them connect at a low overhead 16bit wide RIO tunnel at a 2GHz freqency.<hr></blockquote>

Let's look at that again.

[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:
 If both processors are proximate to the RIOH then you can have them connect at a low overhead 16bit wide RIO tunnel at a 2GHz freqency.<hr></blockquote>

Does this mean a 2GHz chip? It can't! Can it?

speechgod

06-17-2002, 02:37 PM

[quote]Originally posted by BobtheTomato:
Soylent Green ?<hr></blockquote>

"You gotta eat all the old people! Eat all the old people. . ."

Bigc

06-17-2002, 02:47 PM

hmmm... Digital dna

Programmer

06-17-2002, 02:47 PM

[quote]Originally posted by DaveLee:
So...

Dorsal posts with what is a reasonably pragmatic, reasonably expected G4 system at NY.

Then he goes and spoils it by posting some desirable G5 snippet. With no clue about timeframe.

Drat.<hr></blockquote>

I don't understand why this "spoils" it?

Programmer

06-17-2002, 02:49 PM

[quote]Originally posted by speechgod:


Does this mean a 2GHz chip? It can't! Can it?<hr></blockquote>

No, it means a 2 GHz bus. It is asynchronous from the chip, remember? It would be a switch to have the bus at a higher clock rate than the chip, wouldn't it? But its 4x narrower, so the next speed up is on the order of "only" 4x.

jeromba

06-17-2002, 03:11 PM

From Motorola 'The Programming Environments Manual': The PowerPC architecture is a 64-bit architecture with a 32-bit subset. This manual
describes the architecture from a 32-bit perspective. Although some 64-bit resources are
discussed, this manual does not completely describe details of the 64-bit–only features of
the architecture, in particular with respect to the memory management model, registers, and
instruction set.

THT

06-17-2002, 03:18 PM

Once more onto the breach...

In short, the e500 core sucks. In a little more detail, the MPC 8540 really sucks for Apple.

Dorsal M looks to be talking from whitepapers to me, and all that doesn't even seem correct. From a MIPS point view the 8540 gets 2300 MIPS at 1 GHz on 0.13u process. The 7455 get 2300 MIPS at 1 GHz on a 0.18u SOI process. This is telling me that the 8540 is 4 stage execution pipeline, not 7. I can guarantee that a 7455 when manufactured on a 0.13u process will clock 50% higher than the 8540 and therefore have 50% greater performance. There is nothing to gain from the 8540 for Apple. Nothing. If Apple wants a low Watt processor, IBM's 750fx will be fine, and is already shipping, as well as a 1 GHz 7455 of which a 1 GHz 8540 purports to match in performance 6 months from now.

If there is a 4-way superscaler out-of-order superpipelined (10+ stages) Book E base PPC coming out, then it holds promise for Apple. The MPC 8540 and e500 which it's based do not.

bunge

06-17-2002, 03:20 PM

Does the E500 core have an FPU, or would that be a seperate addition to the overall chip like Altivec? I'm just curious, because if it's included in the core, a multi-core chip would then have an automatic increase in FPU performance.

Just a thought.

FalkoL

06-17-2002, 03:20 PM

Quote from above: "Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCEI), IBM Corp. and Toshiba Corp. announced a major partnership aimed at creating a processor architecture — code-named Cell — that will be optimized for multimedia packet processing over the broadband network."

This processor is supposed to become the CPU of the PlayStation3. But who knows ...

THT

06-17-2002, 03:31 PM

Ack! Bad post.

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: THT ]

Murder By Syntax

06-17-2002, 03:34 PM

Yep read that 2 somewhere...

what I remember :

Cell-processor will be suitable for computers though and allow you to combine the power of multiple PS3 processors over networks (maybe pc's)

speed of this new processors would be way faster then anything we can see today (think 'bout 100s of time faster)

Bodhi

06-17-2002, 03:55 PM

and the countdown to Kormac showing up starts...

:D

THT

06-17-2002, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by haderach:
There is an Altivec add on built for the e500.

As far as I can say Altivec has been implemented as APU, connected to the e500 via OCEAN. It seems the same is true for the FPU, it looks like the FPU is not part of the e500 itself. I hope this doesn't affect the performance in a negative way.

It doesn't make sense for APUs to be connected by the Ocean fabric. APUs have to be directly connected to the e500's dispatch unit, completion unit and registers. So they must be inside the e500 core itself.

The e500 then has another unit outside of it that controls access to L2 cache and the memory controller. It is this unit that connects the e500 core to the Ocean fabric. The Ocean fabric then acts as a network for all the I/O on the CPU. Ie, PCI, Ethernet, DMA, RapidIO, etc.

RIO is capable of over 7GBps bandwidth running at 16bit.

This will rock, hehe...

RapidIO is 4 bytes per clock per channel and seems to have limit of 1 GHz in the spec. For a 16 bit 1 GHz RapidIO bus that's 16 bit x 2 (it's DDR) x 1 GHz = 4 GBytes/s. One can probably increase the bandwidth more by adding more buses. But the RapidIO devices coming out in the near future probably won't clock over 500 MHz.

The beauty of Book E is the modularity. The way Motorola designed it was so a customer can pick and choose the components.

Right, customers can even design their own circuits an connect them as APUs via the OCEAN crossbar switch.

I don't think so.

The Ocean fabric connects I/O, not processor execution units. It can maybe connect multiple e500 cores together, but I really doubt that.

RolandG

06-17-2002, 04:27 PM

I have not been following the G5 discussion too closely, so please forgive me for my question:

Will the G5 (64-bit version) be similar in construction to the AMD hammers in that it will basically still be a 32-bit processor with an added 64-bit unit?

GardenOfEarthlyDelights

06-17-2002, 04:38 PM

[quote]Originally posted by THT:
Dorsal M looks to be talking from whitepapers to me, and all that doesn't even seem correct. <hr></blockquote>

[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
Keep in mind that everything Dorsal said is publiclly available. Perfect example is that diagram from Motorola's site.

Not discounting what Dorsal is saying...just trying to keep things in perspective.
<hr></blockquote>

You know, I'm not trying to pick on the guy, since he's about the only that keeps this place exciting nowadays. How many people can get pages and pages of replies on just a couple of posts?

However, speaking as a pathological liar, you have to keep your story straight (honest-- I wouldn't be making this up).

Let's do a little karaoke while I type along:

When that shark bites

The original Dorsal was supposed to be testing hardware.

With its teeth babe

His posts were about how fast the widgets went, and what widgets were lying around the board.

Scarlet billows start to spread...

Now the posts are more like design papers (white papers).

...Oh the line forms on the right, babe.

I'm not sure what this all means, but I've always had this thing about being shark bait. I'm beginning to think Dorsal is blowing bubbles.

BTW: Haven't you ever wondered what really happened to Miss Lotte Lenya?

Lemon Bon Bon

06-17-2002, 05:02 PM

"It sounds like it could let Apple put multiple FPUs and VPUs onto the chip. "

<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

lemon bon bon

Telomar

06-17-2002, 05:03 PM

[quote]Originally posted by ZoSo:

The Hammer family will not only be a 64-bit family--it's already (see the early tests on the prototypes) a huge accomplishment efficiency-wise. The Opteron is already 40% (or so THG quoted some e-zine saying) faster than an Athlon at the same clock speed executing non-optimized 32-bit code. :eek:

That's no 64-bit myth, that's a hell of great design... Apple simply can't afford to be left behind on this issue, period. We need a 64-bit PowerPC CPU, because so the market dictates.<hr></blockquote>

A large portion of the Hammer-series' performance gain has come through the use of an on-chip memory controller and other architechtural changes/improvements. The addition of 64-bit instructions hasn't been to improve performance for your average consumer it has been added so AMD could go after new markets.

AMD originally planned the Hammer series to target servers and workstations with the old Athlon core remaining along side it for some time in the consumer sector. Unfortunately the old Athlon core has basically hit the end of its usefulness and can't go any further. Now what would have been the Clawhammers will take over there forcing the chip to have much greater adoption in the mainstream.

Intel is simply doing the same thing but actually has a 2nd chip with some life left in it. McKinley and its more evolved counterparts aren't going to be aimed at the consumer space in the near future, the PIV is there for that. Later there will be a move to switch people over but you have a while before it happens.

Now if Apple wants to go after the 64-bit marketspace then that's fine they will need a 64-bit chip to do so. They may or may not decide to go there that's a matter for management.

If all they will continue to do is aim at the consumer space 64-bit computing isn't necessary or useful yet. If Apple doesn't release a 64-bit chip until 2003 or 2004 it will not be doomed and in fact it won't really matter in the least to their current markets except from a marketing point of view.

All that said when they do release their next generation chip there is no reason it shouldn't be designed with a 64-bit future in mind even if they only do it for marketing reasons.

[quote]Marketing is everything (look at the consoles).<hr></blockquote>
Consoles are largely about the game developers that are onside for a certain console. In Japan a lot of people have bought PS2 consoles simply due to Square's development for the platform.

When the Xbox came out they released it with a series of big Xbox only titles to try and lure people to buy the console for just certain titles. Nintendo did the same thing with the Gamecube.

It's no big secret if you want to play games any current generation console can do the job but if you want to play certain games often only one console has rights to them. That's what drives the console market more than anything. Certainly what motivated my buying.

Edit: Added console stuff.

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Telomar ]

[ 06-18-2002: Message edited by: Telomar ]

BobtheTomato

06-17-2002, 05:55 PM

[quote]Originally posted by RolandG:
Will the G5 (64-bit version) be similar in construction to the AMD hammers in that it will basically still be a 32-bit processor with an added 64-bit unit?<hr></blockquote>

I think it will indeed be made in a fab on a Silicon wafer

Programmer

06-17-2002, 06:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by THT:
The Ocean fabric connects I/O, not processor execution units. It can maybe connect multiple e500 cores together, but I really doubt that.<hr></blockquote>

I haven't seen anything particularly detailed about OCEAN -- do you have any reference materials? If it was sufficiently fast it should be possible to pass instructions to and from on-chip units for dispatch & retirement. This is what Dorsal was implying, but unless we have some real documentation on OCEAN its hard to verify / deny. I said earlier that this thread might be the make/break thread for Dorsal, but perhaps it will be this particular post that proves he does or doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. :)

moki

06-17-2002, 06:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Dorsal M:

The PowerMac G4 as we know it will be retired. Well the architecture will at least. We will see changes to the system bus, processor and general layout. Motorola has been hard at work with the 130nm G4. It will scale nicely (at least 1.5GHz by the summer) and have improved bus features. Memory access will be stellar. And you'll see why. not only will DDR SDRAM make a debut but it will not connect to the processor iin a conventional manner. More to come. Cache will also be increased on the processor level. Twice what is seen now. You will see a collaboration with another hardware company, but this will not surprise some of you in the know.

More to come.<hr></blockquote>

This jibes with what I've heard as well, but as I understand it, this motherboard has been unfortunately delayed, and a stop-gap DDR motherboard is what we'll see first. We shall see...

G-News

06-17-2002, 06:49 PM

we've had delays and stopgaps for what, 10 years now?

great, wtf am I doing here.

G-news

Programmer

06-17-2002, 07:38 PM

[quote]Originally posted by moki:
This jibes with what I've heard as well, but as I understand it, this motherboard has been unfortunately delayed, and a stop-gap DDR motherboard is what we'll see first. We shall see...<hr></blockquote>

But what is the difference between the "real" mobo and the "stop-gap" one? Is it the processor <-> memory connection or the chipset DSPs you were talking about?

Blizaine

06-17-2002, 07:54 PM

I hear that Apple will put out an RDF on the AGP so the PCI is 8x faster than the DDR on the UMA, but only if the 3GIO is ready from the OEM at a good MSRP. Then again I heard this on the D/L from someone at MOSR so I guess I'm SOL.

Later ;)

Scott F.

06-17-2002, 07:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Blizaine:
I hear that Apple will put out an RDF on the AGP so the PCI is 8x faster than the DDR on the UMA, but only if the 3GIO is ready from the OEM at a good MSRP. Then again I heard this on the D/L from someone at MOSR so I guess I'm SOL.

Later ;) <hr></blockquote>

That's all under NDA.

ColorClassicG4

06-17-2002, 08:06 PM

To clarify: <a href="http://totl.net/VisibleMars/images/mars/us/anal.jpg" target="_blank">here's</a> a diagram of the new core.

*l++

06-17-2002, 08:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by ColorClassicG4:
To clarify: <a href="http://totl.net/VisibleMars/images/mars/us/anal.jpg" target="_blank">here's</a> a diagram of the new core.<hr></blockquote>

Hmmm.. where can I get one of those ?

John

06-17-2002, 08:21 PM

[quote]This jibes with what I've heard as well, but as I understand it, this motherboard has been unfortunately delayed, and a stop-gap DDR motherboard is what we'll see first.<hr></blockquote>

Translation: Xserve architecture in a desktop case. Go back to sleep... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

sc_markt

06-17-2002, 09:29 PM

What the heck does RDF mean???

Thx...

cooop

06-17-2002, 09:36 PM

I believe RDF is an acronym for "Reality Distortion Field," an imaginary aura Steve emits when giving a presentation at Macworld or otherwise.

Spart

06-17-2002, 10:01 PM

What? It's imaginary!?

:eek:

shetline

06-17-2002, 10:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Spart:
What? It's imaginary!?

:eek: <hr></blockquote>

The Field is real. What you believe while under the influence of The Field... well, that's another matter entirely :D

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: shetline ]

Programmer

06-17-2002, 10:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by THT:
The Ocean fabric connects I/O, not processor execution units. It can maybe connect multiple e500 cores together, but I really doubt that.<hr></blockquote>

After poking around a bit on the Moto site I agree with this assessment. The e500 core, however, seems to be designed with "auxilary processing units" in mind. These become part of the core, and are not connected via OCEAN. The only SIMD unit discussed by Moto in this context is not an AltiVec unit, strangely enough. It is intended for lower end integer DSP applications. FPUs and AltiVec VPUs should be possible, and possibly other integer units...? Moto only mentions 2-way superscalar, however, which would put it as a substantial disadvantage against the G4 (as THT pointed out).

Dorsal may be blowing smoke on this one, but I wouldn't be surprised if a future desktop PPC for Apple used this OCEAN on-chip interconnect scheme -- its pretty cool. The 128 Gb/sec is full duplex and multi-way between different functional units.

MacJedai

06-17-2002, 10:43 PM

Just reading the last posts was quite enjoyable (FOFLOL), thanks people . . . I sorely needed it.

And Dorsal M, thanks for the update. Waiting for more, please.

After thinking about the "mystery" company, my bet is on NVidia as well (IBM is already "tied in" with Apple). Too many coincidences, and the graphics fit in with the "Hollywood" S/W acquisitions.

Much to learn, we have. The shroud of the Dark Side is lifting before us.

foamy

06-17-2002, 10:50 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that the moki who posts here is an imposter? How hard would it be for some guy to register the name moki and copy moki's sig from macnn, then begin pulling your collective chains?

Maybe it's really him, but I just don't buy it.

Nonsuch

06-17-2002, 10:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by foamy:
Am I the only one who thinks that the moki who posts here is an imposter? How hard would it be for some guy to register the name moki and copy moki's sig from macnn, then begin pulling your collective chains?

Maybe it's really him, but I just don't buy it.<hr></blockquote>

I've been reading moki's MacNN posts for many months, and never had a doubt it's the same fellow.

Besides, what would be the point of spoofing moki only to be just as reticent as he is on MacNN?

the_unknown_source

06-17-2002, 11:44 PM

[quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:
What the heck does RDF mean???

Thx...<hr></blockquote>

[quote]Originally taken from <a href="http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=RDF" target="_blank">Acronym Finder</a>:
RDF Reality-Distortion Field (attribute shared by charismatic leaders, like Steve Jobs of Apple Computers where the term originated) <hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[ 06-18-2002: Message edited by: the_unknown_source ]

sizzle chest

06-18-2002, 01:04 AM

[quote]Originally posted by foamy:
Am I the only one who thinks that the moki who posts here is an imposter? How hard would it be for some guy to register the name moki and copy moki's sig from macnn, then begin pulling your collective chains?

Maybe it's really him, but I just don't buy it.<hr></blockquote>

That would be reasonable to wonder about in the short term, but since Moki he's been posting here for a long time, and since he's a public figure of sorts in the Mac community, don't you think it would have gotten back to him by now? I mean, wouldn't he have gotten an email or a comment about one of his AI posts, and figured out what was going on, by now?

Barto

06-18-2002, 02:52 AM

When I thought G5, I thought a e500+Rapid-I/O.

Now I learn that the "OCeaN" fabric connects components (e500, on-chip controllers), making the chip even more modular, and the e500 can take auxillary units! And Rapid-I/O scales up to 7Gb/s!

W00T! I won't care if it is used in Macs, my semi-geek brain is set to "drool" mode!

Barto

Telomar

06-18-2002, 04:39 AM

G-News

06-18-2002, 04:57 AM

Yeah and he's obviously enjoying a lot that everyone here flocks to his word, like sheep to the shepherd. You could call that abuse of his position if you wanted. On the other hand, it's your own fault if you turn on your salt diet, when reading his posts.

Oh moki, moki please give us some detail, and oh yeah btw AMBROSIA RULES and EV Nova is incredible and and...don't you think that's pathetic?

I sure think so.
Let him post as moki, and forget about the sig.

G-News

Blackcat

06-18-2002, 05:08 AM

[quote]Originally posted by G-News:
Yeah and he's obviously enjoying a lot that everyone here flocks to his word, like sheep to the shepherd. You could call that abuse of his position if you wanted. On the other hand, it's your own fault if you turn on your salt diet, when reading his posts.

Oh moki, moki please give us some detail, and oh yeah btw AMBROSIA RULES and EV Nova is incredible and and...don't you think that's pathetic?

I sure think so.
Let him post as moki, and forget about the sig.

G-News<hr></blockquote>

Don't be such a miserable git!

It's just a rumour board, for fun. You know, fun? F U N? No? Fair enough...

DaveLee

06-18-2002, 06:11 AM

[quote] Originally posted by Telomar:
All that said when they do release their next generation chip there is no reason it shouldn't be designed with a 64-bit future in mind even if they only do it for marketing reasons.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marketing is everything (look at the consoles).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consoles are largely about the game developers that are onside for a certain console. In Japan a lot of people have bought PS2 consoles simply due to Square's development for the platform.

When the Xbox came out they released it with a series of big Xbox only titles to try and lure people to buy the console for just certain titles. Nintendo did the same thing with the Gamecube. <hr></blockquote>

It may not rely on 'bitness' now, but earlier on, the console marketing was completely reliant on how many bits the machines had. Do you not remember the 16 bit SNES, the 32 bit Saturn and PSX ('wow!'), the 64 bit N64 ('gasp!') and the 'first 128 bit console' the Dreamcast ('hold me back before I go and buy one of those processing monsters!')

All I am saying is that, come January (or even as soon as Xmas), Apple is going to get caught in a pincer movement, and as ZoSo says, will have to talk about the MHz myth and the 64-bit myth. I know full well that Apple has no need for a 64 bit chip, until of course someone walks into PC world and is confronted by a 3GHz P4, a '64 bit' 3600+ AMD, and a 1.6 GHz 32 bit G4 - which two of the three do you think will get sold first?

[quote] Originally posted by Programmer: I don't understand why this "spoils" it?<hr></blockquote>

It doesn't at all. Just stating that I had started to prepare myself for a reasonably realistic NY (I have to upgrade then), and then Dorsal posts juicy stuff about the G5. ;)

Lemon Bon Bon

06-18-2002, 06:33 AM

"I know full well that Apple has no need for a 64 bit chip, until of course someone walks into PC world and is confronted by a 3GHz P4, a '64 bit' 3600+ AMD, and a 1.6 GHz 32 bit G4 - which two of the three do you think will get sold first?"

Succinctly put.

Lemon Bon Bon

Blackcat

06-18-2002, 06:40 AM

[quote]Originally posted by DaveLee:

I know full well that Apple has no need for a 64 bit chip, until of course someone walks into PC world and is confronted by a 3GHz P4, a '64 bit' 3600+ AMD, and a 1.6 GHz 32 bit G4 - which two of the three do you think will get sold first?<hr></blockquote>

The one the salesman gets the best commission on.

DaveLee

06-18-2002, 07:21 AM

Yeah, LOL.

They do everything in their power to steer you away from Apple anyway, guess it was a bad example. :D

sc_markt

06-18-2002, 08:38 AM

Bigc

06-18-2002, 09:22 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon:
"I know full well that Apple has no need for a 64 bit chip, until of course someone walks into PC world and is confronted by a 3GHz P4, a '64 bit' 3600+ AMD, and a 1.6 GHz 32 bit G4 - which two of the three do you think will get sold first?"

Succinctly put.

Lemon Bon Bon<hr></blockquote>

Pathetic, who cares what the other guys got, only kids play that game, grow up.

If there is no benefit why have it.

Telomar

06-18-2002, 09:26 AM

[quote]Originally posted by G-News:
Oh moki, moki please give us some detail, and oh yeah btw AMBROSIA RULES and EV Nova is incredible and and...don't you think that's pathetic?<hr></blockquote>

Funnily enough you were the only one I noticed who commented on Ambrosia software, EV Nova, which for some reason my ex loves, or his signature.

Maybe you are a little too focused on it.

[quote] It may not rely on 'bitness' now, but earlier on, the console marketing was completely reliant on how many bits the machines had. Do you not remember the 16 bit SNES, the 32 bit Saturn and PSX ('wow!'), the 64 bit N64 ('gasp!') and the 'first 128 bit console' the Dreamcast ('hold me back before I go and buy one of those processing monsters!')

All I am saying is that, come January (or even as soon as Xmas), Apple is going to get caught in a pincer movement, and as ZoSo says, will have to talk about the MHz myth and the 64-bit myth. I know full well that Apple has no need for a 64 bit chip, until of course someone walks into PC world and is confronted by a 3GHz P4, a '64 bit' 3600+ AMD, and a 1.6 GHz 32 bit G4 - which two of the three do you think will get sold first? <hr></blockquote>

If you remember correctly the Dreamcast and N64 were also both failures so marketing the bitness of the consoles didn't work in the least. At the end of the day people did look at what each package offered them.

People will buy whichever seems right. If you want to talk about pro systems then the people that buy those usually have some idea of what they are looking for and what they want. Inserting model numbers or bitness into the equation won't really effect them as most of those people will look beyond the facade.

Some people will have inbuilt reflexes that naturally reject Apple as the "art" or cult machines with more leaning to fashion than practicality. They really aren't so great a number. Most people looking at purchases in that field will at least let you make the case of what a Mac can do for them.

Now if you are talking about the general community the main three components to purchasing a computer for most people are: 1) What are other people saying, 2) What do I see when I walk down by my local shops and 3) Cost.

Apple can't really do much about 1) except get people actually noticing their products through some reasonable marketing. Also the integration of other electronic devices is a great move on Apple's part they just need a few more. 2) is being covered by opening more stores around the place and in fact numbers show vastly increased sales in the areas where new stores have opened. 3) is of questionable importance.

Low initial price points are important but Apple needs to get the message through that they offer more than just the box you would buy in a PC world. That and lower total life costs are what I would expect they go after enterprise with.

I know where I currently am we have a group of PCs and a group of macs. Around a third of the PCs are currently down (lousy IT staff are also largely to blame in this case) but the Macs run fine even with incompetent staff.

The complete package is what makes Apple such a strong platform and they need to go after that. All in all Apple really isn't in too bad a shape. I would like to see them move into the scientific and engineering computing sectors but I expect that will come. They also reall need to work on developers too but I expect that shall come too.

There has been some really good management decisions over at Apple of late and I would expect good results in the 2002/2003 financial year.

Programmer

06-18-2002, 09:33 AM

Well I'm sure Apple will come up with something -- be it Gigaflops or Photoshopmarks. A dual 1.5 GHz G4 can claim 24 GigaFlops, which sounds impressive if nobody else is quoting them. :) Actually it is impressive... if they can increase the memory bandwidth to feed the monster.

Okay, this idea came to me in a dream last night so it must be true (and yes, this proves I'm a geek):

The 7455's architectural design appears to be well modularized, in particular the memory subsystem is connected to the rest of the processor by a set of 3 internal buses which are 128 bits wide each. The e500 core is connected to the OCEAN by 3 128 bit wide internal buses. At this point you should be saying hmmm... This design isn't surprising because the PowerPC is a load/store RISC architecture where memory access is tightly controlled. There are a couple of other opportunities for "uncoupling" the 7455 core from the rest of the chip and attaching it to the new OCEAN fabric. This might not be an unreasonable thing to do during the 0.18 micron to 0.13 micron transition.

What if the 7500 is actually an 85xx design with the 7455's core attached in place of the e500? Why would you do such a thing? Well the 7455 core is better for the desktop than the 8450 core and it already exists. The 7455 would gain the RapidIO bus, on-chip memory controller, DMA engine, and any of the other system-on-chip devices that Apple might want.

And since it came in a dream you know it must be true.

Stoo

06-18-2002, 09:40 AM

[quote]There are a couple of other opportunities for "uncoupling" the 7455 core from the rest of the chip and attaching it to the new OCEAN fabric. This might not be an unreasonable thing to do during the 0.18 micron to 0.13 micron transition.<hr></blockquote>

Very interesting, maybe even planned. :D What would Apple call a speedbumped 7xxx OCEAN-ized CPU? G4? G5? Something else?

Xtreme

06-18-2002, 09:43 AM

Quote From PROGRAMMER:
"And since it came in a dream you know it must be true."

HeHeHeHe ...
It's funny you know ... like 3 nights ago ... no joke ... i had a dream about apple releasing a IBM Power4 desktop chip with a "Velocity Engine" aka. ALTIVEC...

hmmm ... i wonder which one of our dreams will come true if any ...

Let the battle of the prophecies begin :p

DaveLee

06-18-2002, 09:45 AM

[quote] Originally posted by Bigc:
Pathetic, who cares what the other guys got, only kids play that game, grow up.<hr></blockquote>

Meeow! It is a good job that you aren't the CEO of Apple, or else they would have gone under long ago.

Why don't you check out Telomar's salient and informed response and come back to me.

And Telomar, I agree with what you say, but consumers are consumers and they will buy anything. I just want Apple to try and reclaim some of the 95%.

dr. zoidberg

06-18-2002, 09:50 AM

noooooh please, don´t give us a stop gap-mobo!! well, or if there´s really no other choice than this, let´s at least have a through-the-line-powermac price drop of let´s say 1k. that would be fair , no? :D (btw: i don´t think that a stop gap-mobo would even have fw2 or usb2... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> ).

i still hope that this time we´ll get the "real deal"... and i´d consider a mobo described/confirmed by Dorsal/moki being one "real deal" (even if it´s not a true G5 7500/8500 whatever)

Lemon Bon Bon

06-18-2002, 10:21 AM

"The 7455's architectural design appears to be well modularized, in particular the memory subsystem is connected to the rest of the processor by a set of 3 internal buses which are 128 bits wide each. The e500 core is connected to the OCEAN by 3 128 bit wide internal buses. At this point you should be saying hmmm... This design isn't surprising because the PowerPC is a load/store RISC architecture where memory access is tightly controlled. There are a couple of other opportunities for "uncoupling" the 7455 core from the rest of the chip and attaching it to the new OCEAN fabric. This might not be an unreasonable thing to do during the 0.18 micron to 0.13 micron transition.

What if the 7500 is actually an 85xx design with the 7455's core attached in place of the e500? Why would you do such a thing? Well the 7455 core is better for the desktop than the 8450 core and it already exists. The 7455 would gain the RapidIO bus, on-chip memory controller, DMA engine, and any of the other system-on-chip devices that Apple might want."

Isn't this what the Register said a while back? That this would be out San Fran next year according to their 'sources'?

A Rio G4. ie a G4 engineered to take on board modular components in superior architecture. Could this 'uncoupled' core take on an extra fpu? G4 core in superior architecture = 7500? Worthy of name change 'G5' (32 bit version?)

But how does that become 64 bit afterwards? Is that where IBM steps in?

Lemon Bon Bon

big C(!) (It's called 'progress'. Consumers like that sorta thing...)

G-News

06-18-2002, 10:54 AM

I wasn't making that up, I've personally seen and read posts that sounded pretty much identical to what I called pathetic.

I'm just trying to keep things at a certain level here, were everyone is on roughly the same level, without some personality cult that doesn't belong here. (that belongs into ASWs own forums).

G-News

MacGP

06-18-2002, 11:18 AM

I can say its moki, because thats the irc nick he uses in #ev3 on irc.ambrosiasw.com. And I doubt anyone in #ev3 would impersonate him.

Programmer

06-18-2002, 11:38 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon:
[QB]Isn't this what the Register said a while back? That this would be out San Fran next year according to their 'sources'?

A Rio G4. ie a G4 engineered to take on board modular components in superior architecture. Could this 'uncoupled' core take on an extra fpu? G4 core in superior architecture = 7500? Worthy of name change 'G5' (32 bit version?)

But how does that become 64 bit afterwards? Is that where IBM steps in?
QB]<hr></blockquote>

Yes, the 7500 that the TheRegister described does sound like what this 7455 core + OCEAN hybrid would be but they didn't really have any details on how it would be designed. Adding an FPU to the 7455 core would be independent of attaching it to OCEAN. I wouldn't object to calling it a G5, given the radical change in how it fits into the system. Replacing the core becomes much easier at this point since the interface to the rest of the chip is well defined and (I presume) clean. Adding multiple cores also becomes much more straightforward.

It'll be interesting to see if their timeline was correct or not.

shetline

06-18-2002, 12:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by dr. zoidberg:
noooooh please, don´t give us a stop gap-mobo!! well, or if there´s really no other choice than this, let´s at least have a through-the-line-powermac price drop of let´s say 1k. that would be fair , no? :D (btw: i don´t think that a stop gap-mobo would even have fw2 or usb2... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> ).

i still hope that this time we´ll get the "real deal"... and i´d consider a mobo described/confirmed by Dorsal/moki being one "real deal" (even if it´s not a true G5 7500/8500 whatever)<hr></blockquote>

I don't really need a new, faster Mac. I'd just want a new, faster Mac. Considering that I'm still getting along quite well with my TiBook 800 for the work I do, the only thing that will motivate me to buy a new PowerMac is a significant performance jump.

Let's face it, for many of us the desire for a hot new toy comes first. Often justifying how said toy will increase our productivity is an afterthought :D

I don't think an Xserve-style DDR hack for the PowerMac would impress me enough to inspire a new purchase. Only if and when the next PowerMac is in the 1.4-1.5 GHz range with true DDR will I be overcome by technolust and buy a new system. If Apple takes too long getting to that point, then they'll have even further to go to make people impressed performance-wise.

One reason I'd most be interested in seeing a speed boost is for my own Java astronomy software (<a href="http://www.skyviewcafe.com" target="_blank">Sky View Cafe</a>). On my old 1.1 GHz AMD system, I get impressively smooth, fluid animation by quickly spinning the clock on the sky map a minute at a time. But my TiBook, or even dual gig PowerMacs I've tried, produce noticeably more sluggish and jerky animation. I don't know how much of this is a matter of processor speed, hardware video acceleration, or JVM performance, but certainly a more powerful PowerMac can only help.

Besides wanting a faster PowerMac for my own personal reasons, even more I want there to be a faster PowerMac because I want Apple to be gaining market share, not losing it. I want something out there to truly impress the PC crowd and draw a few more percentage points away from Wintel systems, so that all of us Mac users can benefit from the increased software support and availability that bigger market share would bring.

Lemon Bon Bon

06-18-2002, 03:27 PM

Shetline...

I agree with everything you said there.

;)

Lemon Bon Bon

Powerdoc

06-18-2002, 03:37 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
Well I'm sure Apple will come up with something -- be it Gigaflops or Photoshopmarks. A dual 1.5 GHz G4 can claim 24 GigaFlops, which sounds impressive if nobody else is quoting them. :) Actually it is impressive... if they can increase the memory bandwidth to feed the monster.

Okay, this idea came to me in a dream last night so it must be true (and yes, this proves I'm a geek):

The 7455's architectural design appears to be well modularized, in particular the memory subsystem is connected to the rest of the processor by a set of 3 internal buses which are 128 bits wide each. The e500 core is connected to the OCEAN by 3 128 bit wide internal buses. At this point you should be saying hmmm... This design isn't surprising because the PowerPC is a load/store RISC architecture where memory access is tightly controlled. There are a couple of other opportunities for "uncoupling" the 7455 core from the rest of the chip and attaching it to the new OCEAN fabric. This might not be an unreasonable thing to do during the 0.18 micron to 0.13 micron transition.

What if the 7500 is actually an 85xx design with the 7455's core attached in place of the e500? Why would you do such a thing? Well the 7455 core is better for the desktop than the 8450 core and it already exists. The 7455 would gain the RapidIO bus, on-chip memory controller, DMA engine, and any of the other system-on-chip devices that Apple might want.

And since it came in a dream you know it must be true.<hr></blockquote>
Interesting idea, but don't you think that the 7455 core is not enough pipelined in order to increase his clock frequency in the future ?
I know that the only important thing is the performance and not the mhz myth, but if a 10 % loss of performance per mhz is balanced by a 30 % increase of the frequency, it's worth to make the pipeline longer.
To your advice what will be the maximum frequency of the 7455 core on a 0,13 SOI process ?

Programmer

06-18-2002, 04:27 PM

[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:

Interesting idea, but don't you think that the 7455 core is not enough pipelined in order to increase his clock frequency in the future ?
I know that the only important thing is the performance and not the mhz myth, but if a 10 % loss of performance per mhz is balanced by a 30 % increase of the frequency, it's worth to make the pipeline longer.
To your advice what will be the maximum frequency of the 7455 core on a 0,13 SOI process ?<hr></blockquote>

Motorola has already said it expects the G4 to scale to 1.8 GHz. Unshackled by bandwidth problems it should really fly. And there is another core coming, this would just be a short term solution to fix the bandwidth problem.

Scott F.

06-18-2002, 04:33 PM

[quote]Apple today revised its guidance for the financial quarter ending this June. The company anticipates seeing revenues of US$1.4 to $1.45 billion for the quarter, down from previous guidance of about $1.6 billion.

The company cited soft demand in the consumer and creative markets as reasons for the low numbers. Europe and Japan have been particularly weak, according to Apple.

If there's a silver lining here, it's that Apple remains profitable despite the shortfall. Apple has revised earnings guidance to $.08 to $.10 per diluted share, compared to $.11 previously suggested.

Apple CEO Steve Jobs noted that like others in the computer industry, Apple is experiencing a slowdown. "We've got some amazing new products in development, so we're excited about the year ahead," said Jobs. "As one of the few companies currently making a profit in the PC business, we remain very optimistic about Apple's prospects for long-term growth."
<hr></blockquote>

That was from MacCentral.

I wonder if this gives credibility to the rumor that things are NOT ready for the next-big-thing in the PowerMac line... that the "Plan-B" solution is what will be released, and Apple knows that the graphics market won't "bite" until the Big guns come-out.

I dunno... just looking for a connection.

Powerdoc

06-18-2002, 04:56 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:


Motorola has already said it expects the G4 to scale to 1.8 GHz. Unshackled by bandwidth problems it should really fly. And there is another core coming, this would just be a short term solution to fix the bandwidth problem.<hr></blockquote>

If it is only a short term solution i agree with it.

JustAGuy

06-18-2002, 04:57 PM

Well, considering that the warning was for the quarter that ends in June, I'd have to say that this really has no insight what-so-ever to MWNY releases.

Even the "we've got great stuff in the pipeline" quote was standard marketing PR and contains no useful information.

Blackcat

06-18-2002, 05:01 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott F.:


That was from MacCentral.

I wonder if this gives credibility to the rumor that things are NOT ready for the next-big-thing in the PowerMac line... that the "Plan-B" solution is what will be released, and Apple knows that the graphics market won't "bite" until the Big guns come-out.

I dunno... just looking for a connection.<hr></blockquote>

I'm an optimist, but I read it as positive. It's June, the year ahead includes July and MWNY, then we get MWSF and MWTK...

We could get:

MWNY - 'Stellar' Powermac
MWSF - Powerbook DDR
MWTK - NewtonX

:)

All we really know is we don't know, but the report didn't say no new hardware.

[ 06-18-2002: Message edited by: Blackcat ]

haderach

06-18-2002, 05:21 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by THT:

It doesn't make sense for APUs to be connected by the Ocean fabric. APUs have to be directly connected to the e500's dispatch unit, completion unit and registers. So they must be inside the e500 core itself.

I have reviewed this in the documentation I got, you're right, the APUs are not connected via OCEAN, they are connected directly to the core as you say.

The Ocean fabric connects I/O, not processor execution units. It can maybe connect multiple e500 cores together, but I really doubt that.

My documents do not mention processors with multiple e500 cores, but I don't doubt that there are plans for a design using more than one core. Unfortunately I cannot tell how they could be connected.

But I have some further information that may be interesting:

- I have reviewed the e500 core design documentation (well, in my docs it is not described as 'e500', the docs are older and the 'e500' name might not yet have existed at that time, but I can assure that it is what is now called 'e500'), and I must say that it is pretty different from the core used by any 74xx CPU. It offers about the same performance per clock cycle, but with a less complex design - that means that the e500 is much more efficient than current cores. I must say that I would have preferred a design with more execution units and superior performance, I fear that the e500 as described in my docs will not be able to compete with Opterons or other high performance designs.

- The SIMD APU described by Motorola is not the Altivec APU that will be used in the desktop G5, it is a much simpler unit that will probably only offer basic math operations.

- I got some further information about a very interesting ASIC that might be used in future PowerMacs, I will post information about this very soon.

jccbin

06-18-2002, 05:32 PM

Most of us caught the gaping hole in the XServe: The link between memory and the processor was still 133mhz.
What if Apple left off the new connection from the XServer intro?
If the XServe still is not shipping in July, it may be that Apple has implemented a fast memory-to-processor scheme and did not want to let the cat out of the bag until MWNY.
This way they get to launch XServe, get a few units sold, get the hype and all of the one-product launch AND get to say, come mid-July, "Purchasers actually get a better deal than they thought - the fast memory-processor link."

Perhaps the "stop-gap" was to intro the server product with the 133 mhz memory-processor bus - but never ship it that way.

Call me stupid....

mmicist

06-18-2002, 06:03 PM

[quote]Originally posted by haderach:


I have reviewed this in the documentation I got, you're right, the APUs are not connected via OCEAN, they are connected directly to the core as you say.
.<hr></blockquote>

There are big problems with adding things to the e500 core (Altivec, FPU) as demonstrated by the fact that the SIMD APU uses the integer registers. Adding execution units with their own registers, a necessity for both altivec and an FPU, since they need wider registers, changes the design of the scheduler. The scheduler needs to know all about all the registers and what instructions touch them, to be able to pick instructions that are'nt blocked.
There are other problems with these units as well, unfortunately e500 does'nt reduce CPU design to pick and mix.

Michael

Telomar

06-18-2002, 09:41 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott F.:
That was from MacCentral.

I wonder if this gives credibility to the rumor that things are NOT ready for the next-big-thing in the PowerMac line... that the "Plan-B" solution is what will be released, and Apple knows that the graphics market won't "bite" until the Big guns come-out.

I dunno... just looking for a connection.<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't worry too much about that. It is really just Apple confirming that the LCD iMacs sales have flattened off faster than expected in this past quarter.

I doubt most analysts will care too much though as it was fairly common knowledge. It's worth noting that Apple deliberately announced eMacs for everyone ahead of this. That will reassure markets they are going insert something at lower price points until they can lower prices back down and they aren't completely ignoring low cost consumer options.

Programmer

06-18-2002, 10:16 PM

[quote]Originally posted by mmicist:
There are big problems with adding things to the e500 core (Altivec, FPU) as demonstrated by the fact that the SIMD APU uses the integer registers. Adding execution units with their own registers, a necessity for both altivec and an FPU, since they need wider registers, changes the design of the scheduler. The scheduler needs to know all about all the registers and what instructions touch them, to be able to pick instructions that are'nt blocked.
There are other problems with these units as well, unfortunately e500 does'nt reduce CPU design to pick and mix.
<hr></blockquote>

Pity -- one would have hoped they would have addressed these fundamental issues of core design when planning how to make the thing support APUs. Ah well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the new core and rely on the 7455's in the meantime.

johnsonwax

06-19-2002, 12:53 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Blackcat:
All we really know is we don't know, but the report didn't say no new hardware.<hr></blockquote>

Well, the Apple promo that allows employees to buy hardware at a discount came out yesterday. Usually it's a solid guide to what products need to be cleared out of the channel and will soon be discontinued/revved.

CRT iMacs and all Powermacs (including dual 1GHz) are on the list. I think the CRT iMacs are clearly on the way out due to the eMac, and the Powermacs suggest that a rev is due soon.

Now, I've held that Apple no longer wants to use the expos to focus on consumer-level product, but a sufficient architecture change to the pro line (suggesting a later trickle-down to the consumer line) might work as well.

Now, my opinion is that the G4 iMac clearly points to a sufficient distinguishing feature in the pro line arriving soon (something other than pure MHz) but at the same time, I'm not overly optimistic regarding G5 or big MHz gains just yet.

In other words, I think people will be disappointed that the improvements aren't 'dramatic' enough, though they probably will be noticeable to Apple's pro customers. I think Apple scooping up DV products foretells dramatic stuff a year from now or so, but not now - the software isn't ready and a big hardware rollout would be wasted.

PipelineStall

06-19-2002, 01:23 AM

[quote] Well, the Apple promo that allows employees to buy hardware at a discount came out yesterday. Usually it's a solid guide to what products need to be cleared out of the channel and will soon be discontinued/revved.
<hr></blockquote>

Interesting. I remember they did the same thing for the TiBooks and iMacs (put them on the QPromo). The CRT iMacs were something like 45% off (as opposed to the usual 20%), on the Winter 2001 QPromo; for reasons that are now obvious. ;)

[ 06-19-2002: Message edited by: PipelineStall ]

qazII

06-19-2002, 01:45 AM

[quote]Originally posted by johnsonwax:

CRT iMacs and all Powermacs (including dual 1GHz) are on the list. I think the CRT iMacs are clearly on the way out due to the eMac, and the Powermacs suggest that a rev is due soon.
<hr></blockquote>

[quote]Originally posted by PipelineStall:


Interesting. I remember they did the same thing for the TiBooks and iMacs (put them on the QPromo). The CRT iMacs were something like 45% off (as opposed to the usual 20%), on the Winter 2001 QPromo; for reasons that are now obvious. ;) <hr></blockquote>

How high are the discounts now?

johnsonwax

06-19-2002, 02:06 AM

[quote]Originally posted by qazII:
How high are the discounts now?<hr></blockquote>

About 20%. Pretty standard promo discount. I'm guessing that a heavier discount is indicative of more inventory to move, rather than a more dramatic rev.

RolandG

06-19-2002, 03:39 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Blackcat:


It's June, the year ahead includes July and MWNY, then we get MWSF and MWTK...

We could get:

MWNY - 'Stellar' Powermac
MWSF - Powerbook DDR
MWTK - NewtonX

<hr></blockquote>

Why do people always forget about MacExpo Paris in September? I guess we might be getting the GeForce 5 there.

G-News

06-19-2002, 03:48 AM

they forget about it, because the last one was cancelled because of september 11.

G-News

olli

06-19-2002, 04:44 AM

[quote]Originally posted by RolandG:


Why do people always forget about MacExpo Paris in September? I guess we might be getting the GeForce 5 there.<hr></blockquote>

Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify.

Powerdoc

06-19-2002, 04:58 AM

[quote]Originally posted by olli:


Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify.<hr></blockquote>

only one post and ready to enter in a flamewar ? ;)

olli

06-19-2002, 05:03 AM

[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:


only one post and ready to enter in a flamewar ? ;) <hr></blockquote>

No , that was not my intention .
I am a rational person , I just tell the truth. I should've emphasized MOST . That most certainly does NOT mean ALL. I registered because my iMac rev a is getting old , and I wanna buy a new mac after MW expo.

PS: been following this forums for 3 years now, its about time I register no?
please don't flame me.

Thereubster

06-19-2002, 05:07 AM

Too late you worthless piece of s.... :D No just kinding, I fully agree with you, but just wait till JYD or Applenut see this..... :D

olli

06-19-2002, 05:15 AM

What worries me is the other thread about an Apple Camera maybe being released also.
Jobs won't put 2 very big things in one event
(aka G5(or very big powerMac upgrade) and a new device).
So I hope the camera is for later

b8rtm8nn

06-19-2002, 05:30 AM

I disagree, I think Jobs likes to have many impressive new thing to promote at an Expo, as ong as they don't detract attention from each other. A camera doesn't detract from a PowerMac, so that would be a better combo than a totally new iMac and totally new PowerMac.

US soccer rules!! (Just joking, all the international students are pissed that the US is winning at all)

xype

06-19-2002, 06:03 AM

[quote]Originally posted by b8rtm8nn:
(Just joking, all the international students are pissed that the US is winning at all)<hr></blockquote>

Tell them they can go play soccer for their land themselves, if they're not happy with it ;)

g::masta

06-19-2002, 08:24 AM

<a href="http://www.geek.com/procspec/apple/g5.htm" target="_blank">this</a> doesn't bode well .. nothing we didn't know already, but when ChipGeek posts it, then we should get worried.

at least the bus speed is greatly improved.
pity bout the 85XX ..

c'est la vie
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

MrSparkle

06-19-2002, 08:45 AM

I don't doubt that Dorsal has inside info on chips and motherboards, but I don't think he has enough insight to justify the title of this thread. Let's not forget Seybold and maybe even Siggraph. I don't know if Steve-o would be able to get the attention he wants at Siggraph, but with the amount of Broadcast software their selling and purchasing, it makes sense for them to have a large presence there.

On the other hand maybe it's best for the new hardware to be announced at MWNY and just be shown at Siggraph. Anyway, the point is, we shouldn't be expecting anything in particular at MWNY. There will be other opportunities for any announcement(s) before the end of the summer.

Nonsuch

06-19-2002, 08:46 AM

[quote]Originally posted by g::masta:
<a href="http://www.geek.com/procspec/apple/g5.htm" target="_blank">this</a> doesn't bode well .. nothing we didn't know already, but when ChipGeek posts it, then we should get worried.

<hr></blockquote>

Sounds to me like ChipGeek is just cribbing from AppleInsider.

I'm not worried myself. From what I've read, it seems likely that Apple has a new, faster pro chip almost ready to bring to market. I could care less who builds it really, as long as it's quick and scales well. And anyway, hasn't everyone and his sister on this forum been saying that Apple needs to dump Motorola?

warpd

06-19-2002, 08:48 AM

[quote] Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify. <hr></blockquote>

This may not be the place for this, but hold on a second pal! Some points of fact:

FACT- The US is currently more engaged in international affairs than any nation on earth.

FACT- The US gives FAR more in international aid than any nation on earth.

FACT- The US bears a burden on the international stage, that entails complexities that Belgium could never possibly understand.

FACT- Policy is a lot more that fat, boring European men with bad haircuts, sitting around paying lip service to what should be done, and then expecting the US to bail them out when they realize that all they were ever any good at was making chocolate!

So, SHHHHHHHH! <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[ 06-19-2002: Message edited by: warpd ]

Thereubster

06-19-2002, 09:02 AM

....as opposed to all the fat, stupid americans who shoot first anf then dont bother to ask questions later...of course!! :D <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

warpd

06-19-2002, 09:05 AM

I think you mean; Shoot first and ask questions later, no?

anand

06-19-2002, 09:11 AM

"FACT- The US gives FAR more in international aid than any nation on earth."

You sure of that? Or does that just include Bill Gates and Ted Turner? (:

What amazes me is how Europeans complain about America. Europe has done more to screw this world than anybody. The germans were bad in that they killed 6 million in one go (and a whole bunch of gypsies that no one cares about) but the history of Europe is one on genocide. Who killed the native people of the new world? The problems of Asia and Africa lay directly on the feet of England, France and Portugal. America is no saint, and generally we are a dumb nation, but in no way can Europe look down upon us.

And for more Apple stuff, a really dumb question. Does DDR ram in a graphics board help? Why? Why would'nt DDR ram in the X-serve help?

bunge

06-19-2002, 09:13 AM

[quote]Originally posted by olli:
Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify.<hr></blockquote>

WORLD CUP BABY! When we oust Brazil for you, you can come back and apologize!

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

onlooker

06-19-2002, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by olli:
[Q]What worries me is the other thread about an Apple Camera maybe being released also.
Jobs won't put 2 very big things in one event
(aka G5(or very big powerMac upgrade) and a new device).
So I hope the camera is for later<hr></blockquote>

That's a seriously disturbing thought. What business does Apple have in making a camera? There are many great companies (I doubt I need to name any) that have been making very high quality camera's for 50 years + that I would feel more comfortable buying a camera from.

This is the first time I've heard of this rumor, and I hope it's the ramblings of some idiot that you read, because I would think Apple would be better off using it's resources in other areas that would probably be more profitable to Apple. A (bonehead) move like this does not sound like smart business IMHO.

warpd

06-19-2002, 09:20 AM

[quote]"FACT- The US gives FAR more in international aid than any nation on earth."
You sure of that? Or does that just include Bill Gates and Ted Turner? (:
<hr></blockquote>

Absolutely positive! Look into international aid statistics, both through non profits, the UN, and every other international aid channel, the US has eclipsed every other country for the past 20 years. Both in total $$, and as a percent of GDP. We are, and have been the most generous nation on the planet.

As for this moron, the typical blanket statement "Um, well the US shoots first and asks questions later" is the same crap that has been spouted for years to try to rationalize the pathetic inertia of European policies.

altimac

06-19-2002, 09:29 AM

[quote]
FACT- The US gives FAR more in international aid than any nation on earth
<hr></blockquote>

important point :
USA give very small international aid relative to their PIB.... OK the absolute value is superior ;-)
look at less rich countries like northern european country who concede more in relative figures !

ColorClassicG4

06-19-2002, 09:30 AM

Would you people shut your yap about the 1,832nd USA-vs.-Europe thread? Take it to AppleOutsider if you are firmly convinced that a web board about Macintoshes is the ideal place for an inept and fitful discussion about politics.

:rolleyes:

DaveLee

06-19-2002, 09:30 AM

OK guys, chill.

There are enlightened Americans and enlightened Europeans, and stupid people on both sides of the Atlantic.
Back to the thread...

Jonathan

06-19-2002, 09:30 AM

Hey idiots.

Shut up about the USA.

this is Future hardware, remember... you can shoot your mouths off in AppleOutsider.

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

warpd

06-19-2002, 09:32 AM

[quote]an inept and fitful discussion about politics <hr></blockquote>

LOL!! Very good!

anand

06-19-2002, 09:53 AM

So let me ask again. Does DDR ram add in a graphics chip? If so, what will DDR ram add to a set up like the X-serve and what could it mean for the new towers coming in July? If it will be just what Moki said and the "Stop gap" system of the X-serve.

BRussell

06-19-2002, 10:11 AM

[quote]Originally posted by g::masta:
<a href="http://www.geek.com/procspec/apple/g5.htm" target="_blank">this</a> doesn't bode well .. nothing we didn't know already, but when ChipGeek posts it, then we should get worried.

at least the bus speed is greatly improved.
pity bout the 85XX ..

c'est la vie
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> <hr></blockquote>The 8500 was never going to be a desktop chip, it's a chip for the comm and embedded market. The G5 used in Apple's PowerMacs was always going to be the 7500. 74xx = G4, 75xx = G5. 85xx = next gen embedded.

xype

06-19-2002, 10:17 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
Hey idiots.
Shut up about the USA.<hr></blockquote>

Oopsie! Now guys, do what the Administrator is telling you to!

See, that's why it's great from a land so small noone gives a **** about! Slovenia is unlikely to be blamed for any mess, whereas the US is a great target to blame for everything...

moki

06-19-2002, 10:25 AM

I blame Slovenia for the lack of a G5 at the MacWorld/NY expo.

Programmer

06-19-2002, 10:27 AM

[quote]Originally posted by anand:
So let me ask again. Does DDR ram add in a graphics chip? If so, what will DDR ram add to a set up like the X-serve and what could it mean for the new towers coming in July? If it will be just what Moki said and the "Stop gap" system of the X-serve.<hr></blockquote>

I assume you are talking about the DDR on the motherboard? Most graphics boards nowadays use DDR for VRAM.

Yes, the extra bandwidth provided by DDR on the motherboard should aid the graphics system since with Quartz Extreme the graphics engine will be reading a lot of data from main memory in order to draw it on the display.

We'll just have to wait and see what July brings.

Jonathan Brisby

06-19-2002, 10:28 AM

Maybe the "this is Apple's year" is more then a marketing scheme to gain market share. Maybe Apple has plans of world domination tucked away in their belts. Wow, that would be neat. Do I get a free tattoo also?

qazII

06-19-2002, 10:38 AM

[quote]Originally posted by onlooker:


That's a seriously disturbing thought. What business does Apple have in making a camera? There are many great companies (I doubt I need to name any) that have been making very high quality camera's for 50 years + that I would feel more comfortable buying a camera from.<hr></blockquote>

What business does Apple have in making an MP3 player? There are many great companies (I doubt I need to name any) that have been making very high quality MP3 players for many years.

Yes, Apple is inexperienced in making cameras. However, this does not matter to much. Look at Sony. They have been making cameras only very recently (they never made film cameras) and yet they are major competitors in the camera market today. One of the main advantages of the iPod was the charging and fast data transfer via FireWire. This alone would be likely to insure an Apple camera success, as there are no consumer-level FireWire cameras.

Or, perhaps Apple is collaborating with another camera manufacturer. Isn't that what happened with one of the QuickTake cameras?

xype

06-19-2002, 11:16 AM

[quote]Originally posted by moki:
I blame Slovenia for the lack of a G5 at the MacWorld/NY expo.<hr></blockquote>

MUAHAHA! IF you only knew! :cool:

In other news: Slovenian officials today officially announced that buying the stock of G5s of the next two years to feed to their cattle was a bad idea. Right now other means of putting the G5s to use are being evaluated and it looks like the G5s will be recycled for other agricultural use.

BobtheTomato

06-19-2002, 11:18 AM

Many folks have pointed out that Apple's recent acquisition of companies in high end video software as pointing to new Apple hardware soon. Well, I checked out <a href="http://www.macrumors.com" target="_blank">macrumors</a>today and noticed they shot a lot of media producers at the same time they shot the switchers campaign but haven't started airing the spots yet. I wonder if they could be for after Apple makes its "big move" into media which would fix it as sooner rather than later.

KidRed

06-19-2002, 11:38 AM

[quote]Originally posted by BobtheTomato:
Many folks have pointed out that Apple's recent acquisition of companies in high end video software as pointing to new Apple hardware soon. Well, I checked out <a href="http://www.macrumors.com" target="_blank">macrumors</a>today and noticed they shot a lot of media producers at the same time they shot the switchers campaign but haven't started airing the spots yet. I wonder if they could be for after Apple makes its "big move" into media which would fix it as sooner rather than later.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, I think they are simply celebs, not any kind of job specific (mm, even tho the first ads were..) They could just be saying, hey look who uses a Mac, he's a famous person....

g::masta

06-19-2002, 11:44 AM

how about this for a rumour?

Dorsal M = Steve Jobs!!!!

WOOOW!! that would explain a lot hey?
just a theory to pass the time..
some troll-food for the masses.

peace out,
G :D

Yevgeny

06-19-2002, 11:55 AM

[quote]Originally posted by moki:
I blame Slovenia for the lack of a G5 at the MacWorld/NY expo.<hr></blockquote>

I am tired of people always laying balme for poor CPU production on doorstep of poor huddled masses in Slovenia. Blame France- they are easy target having lost first round of world cup.

Panzer

06-19-2002, 12:15 PM

[quote]Originally posted by warpd:


Absolutely positive! Look into international aid statistics, both through non profits, the UN, and every other international aid channel, the US has eclipsed every other country for the past 20 years. Both in total $$, and as a percent of GDP. We are, and have been the most generous nation on the planet.
<hr></blockquote>

You are wrong on both counts. In 1993 Japan became number one in terms of total aid given in $. Yes, it was the US that they surpassed I'm not talking about one large, one time contribution to an obscure aid program, these are general statistics, not specific to any one particular organization.

Also, the Scandanavian countries (Denmark, Norway and Sweden) are the most generous in tems of GDP. They give a higher percentage than any other country.

FYI, about half of the entire US aid budget goes to two countries: Egypt and Israel.

But what does all this have to do with MYNY? Maybe Apple will get into the business of foreign aid and donate some of their new PowerMacs?