Microsoft to end IE, Safari needs to improve

[satchmo]

Well, this is no surprise. MS and it's monopolistic ways is now looking to integrate IE into their future operating systems.
No more standalone versions of IE.
Of course that also means no more IE for Mac.

And before anyone says, who needs IE, just remember that Safari is still Beta and it's still has problems with many sites. Unfortunately the standard by which most people program sites to is still IE.
Safari is okay, but it still needs to mature quite a bit.

http://news.com.com/2100-1032_3-1011859.html?tag=fd_top

[Frank777]

Darn, beat me to it by sixty seconds....:lol:

I think Safari 1.0 will be downloadable after the WWDC keynote, perhaps a few days before. If there's any new software coming, Apple won't want to tax their servers too heavily.

I don't load beta software on my machine, so I have yet to experience Safari. I know Autofill and tabs have been added during the beta cycle, so I'm looking forward to it!

[Leonis]

I don't think safari for window will make sense. I would instead to love to see Apple supports Mozilla for Windows ;)

[Aquatic]

Craptacular.

[torifile]

Wait.





Listen.





That sound you don't hear is my heart breaking. I haven't used IE in months and I have no desire to ever load it up again. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Chucker]

Actually, that CNET article doesn't have anything to do at all with IE for Mac.

[Leonis]

Slightly off topic.

One feature that I really want to see in Safari 1.0 is the ability to "emulate" itself and Internet Explorer for Windows. If this feature is included then we will not have to worry about going to some sites that require IE on a PC

[Frank777]

Uh, Leonis....

I don't see that anyone here has proposed Safari for Windows.

Been eating too much beef out there in the West? ;)

[Barto]

Originally posted by Leonis
Slightly off topic.

One feature that I really want to see in Safari 1.0 is the ability to "emulate" itself and Internet Explorer for Windows. If this feature is included then we will not have to worry about going to some sites that require IE on a PC

Two words: Debug. Menu.

1) Close Safari, open Terminal
2) defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1
3) There is no step 3!

Your prayers are answered.

Barto

[alcimedes]

Barto, you rule.

:)

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Frank777
Uh, Leonis....

Been eating too much beef out there in the West? ;)

Probably ;)

....I just got a big stick dinner tonite, no kidding.

[westonm]

2) defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1

For my own future reference how would you find out something like that? I tried looking in plist editor before entering that, I found nothing. After entering that the preference was in plist editor. How would someone find this kind of stuff out?

[Snof]

Originally posted by Barto
Two words: Debug. Menu.

1) Close Safari, open Terminal
2) defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1
3) There is no step 3!

Your prayers are answered.

Barto

That will cause Safari to identify itself as IE but not behave like IE (I think), so for sites that only let you enter if you identify as IE it solves the problem.
But if the site is written to work only with IE, then telling it that you are using IE does no good, it may let you in, but it won't work properly.

[NETROMac]

Originally posted by Snof
That will cause Safari to identify itself as IE but not behave like IE (I think), so for sites that only let you enter if you identify as IE it solves the problem.
But if the site is written to work only with IE, then telling it that you are using IE does no good, it may let you in, but it won't work properly. I'm sure Apple is working to improve compatibility with sites designed with IE in mind, or that requires IE for some reason. It knows this is important to customers. Bu at least sites can't shut you out if you're using Safari. It's going to be interesting to see if Apple includes this feature in the final release of Safari though.

[jwri004]

Originally posted by Snof
That will cause Safari to identify itself as IE but not behave like IE (I think),

Why would you want it behave like IE. Slow, nasty piece of shit that Gates forces down the masses throat. If you want IE, then use IE!!

Surely by now we have options, Safari, Camino... why burden ourselves with the fecal matter that is IE? At the very worst Nutscrape. Anybody using Firebird (if I remember its name correctly)?

If only I had more ability with X11, Office would be gone in a flash.

[NETROMac]

Originally posted by jwri004
Why would you want it behave like IE. Slow, nasty piece of shit that Gates forces down the masses throat. If you want IE, then use IE!!I don't think that was his point. He simply stated (quite clarly) that he wanted Safari to be compatible with sites designed for IE.

[Brad]

Originally posted by westonm
For my own future reference how would you find out something like that? Use the strings command in Terminal on the app, guess at what are some possible options, and plug them in hoping they have some effect. :)

[NETROMac]

Brad, you forgot *click* :lol:

[costique]

Originally posted by NETROMac
He simply stated (quite clarly) that he wanted Safari to be compatible with sites designed for IE. Personally, I'd kill web designers who test their work against the only browser. That being off-topic, there are standards and there is Microsoft. Redmond likes to establish its own standards and rarely follows experts' recommendations. They've been ignoring 3WC for years, bloating IE with strange features and bugs they call features, beyond hope or remedy. As a result, we have millions of lazy web designers who find it easier to test a page only in IE than to read manuals by 3WC. So, in a nutshell, Apple had better make a fast standards-compliant browser than copy IE's bugs and quirks.

[NETROMac]

Originally posted by costique
So, in a nutshell, Apple had better make a fast standards-compliant browser than copy IE's bugs and quirks. I agree, but I wouldn't mind some kind of "IE on XP emulation" on sites that require it.

[costique]

Originally posted by NETROMac
I agree, but I wouldn't mind some kind of "IE on XP emulation" on sites that require it. Yes. Alas, it would still be good for poor users.

[Gizzmonic]

I don't think this applies to Mac IE. Although it's been so long since a Mac IE update, it matters little. Safari and Camino have left it in the dust...

[Aquatic]

Yeah Safari is faster and easier to use than IE. Macs still NEED IE. There is no way around it. And this was unofficial and PC centric but it still does not bode well. Look at how long IE 5 has gone without an update. IE 6 for Mac is a Good Thing?. Competition is a Good Thing?. Identifying your Safari as IE doesn't make it IE.

[jwri004]

It still begs the question

"who needs IE?"

Fours months, no need for IE. What high quality porn sites are you looking at?:devil:

[drumbug1]

Originally posted by jwri004
It still begs the question

"who needs IE?"



I agree. I haven't used IE on my Mac (or the PC's at work) since about September. What sites are you people looking at that only work in IE? I don't know of any. :???:

[Brad]

I've been pushing the "no-IE" ticket for years. My main browsers today are Safari and OmniWeb 4.5 (sp's). Before these I used Chimera. Before that OmniWeb 4.x and Mozilla.

After months of non-use on my hard drive, I finally archived IE onto a dmg back in September. I probably hadn't even used it regularly since some time in 2001. I very very rarely encounter sites that actually need IE. I honestly can't even remember the last time that was. Meanwhile, I just keep IE around for testing my own standards compliant (http://validator.w3.org/) code to see how badly IE might screw it up.

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Brad
I've been pushing the "no-IE" ticket for years. My main browsers today are Safari and OmniWeb 4.5 (sp's). Before these I used Chimera. Before that OmniWeb 4.x and Mozilla.

After months of non-use on my hard drive, I finally archived IE onto a dmg back in September. I probably hadn't even used it regularly since some time in 2001. I very very rarely encounter sites that actually need IE. I honestly can't even remember the last time that was. Meanwhile, I just keep IE around for testing my own standards compliant (http://validator.w3.org/) code to see how badly IE might screw it up.


Actually some sites from Asia-Pacific areas require IE. The jackass in this area are so pro-M$ :mad:

[Barto]

I can't believe that some of you are ASKING for Safari to not just impersonate IE, but emulate it.

If web browsers start to emulate IE, then web masters will continue to ignore standards compliance. The only way to bring standards back into the web is to have a healthy selection of widely used browsers. Otherwise web masters will continue to code "MSHTML", not HTML.

Barto

[Aquatic]

Good call barto. (Reminds me of "red box" heh)

Safari should be as different from (read: better) IE as possible, since we'll always still have IE. Or will we? I hope so. Every now and then sites require IE. For me I MUST use IE daily for my college's webcourses and all class management, like signing up. "Peoplesoft blows" as someone here eloquently put it. U. RI wasted 10 MILLION on some ghetto Peoplesoft program that my friend Dan (www.wonderwarp.com) in 9th grade could have done better on. It crashes Safari like clockwork. Actually to be honest I switched to FireBird as a backup (wow it's fast!) and that works with PeopleSoft. I'm curious now too, what are some sites that require IE? And if they do I wonder if they require just IE or PC IE?

[tonton]

Downloading is still freaking awful on Safari. First is the crappy downloads window which doesn't allow you to reload server side failures, check or copy the URL of download items, organize the order of downloads, and on, and on, and on, then there's the shit where Safari only allows four connections at a time and can't even open a simple page while four downloads are in progress (what the hell is that?) then there's the deal where Safari has to download an image from the server all over again when there's a perfectly good copy in the cache. This means that some images can't even be downloaded if the server doesn't allow direct calls to the file.

If these three things are fixed, THEN AND ONLY THEN can I give up IE. Otherwise, Safari is MUCH better than IE. Just FIX DOWNLOADING ALREADY!!!!!

[Brad]

Originally posted by tonton
If these three things are fixed, THEN AND ONLY THEN can I give up IE. Otherwise, Safari is MUCH better than IE. Just FIX DOWNLOADING ALREADY!!!!! You sound like a perfect candidate for OmniWeb 4.5. :)

It has all the OmniWeb 4.x goodies (plus a few new things) as well as the fast WebCore engine that powers Safari. Since you're an IE junkie, you won't be miffed by the lack of tabs in OmniWeb ("yet." something good is coming in 5.0). Since you seem to be a download fanatic, you should go try out OmniWeb 4.2.1 (http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omniweb/) and get a feel for how it works and have a look at its download manager. Important note: 4.2 still uses the antiquated rendering engine and is still relatively slow and doesn't conform to all technologies like CSS and DHTML and other goodies. 4.5 fixes all that.

[Barto]

You can always use a specilized download manager, like KGet (hooray for X11, Fink and Liquid!)

Also, I prefer the simplicity of Safari's download manager. Pause/Resume is desperately needed as is selectable URLs as you pointed out. However, I much prefer Safari Beta with a few missing features than the garbage (speed, standards, stability and interface) of IE.

Barto

[klinux]

I would imagine it is far easier to port Konqueror to Windows than Safari to Windows. Safari is based on KHTML in Konqueror to start with anyway.

[tonton]

Originally posted by Brad
You sound like a perfect candidate for OmniWeb 4.5. :)

It has all the OmniWeb 4.x goodies (plus a few new things) as well as the fast WebCore engine that powers Safari. Since you're an IE junkie, you won't be miffed by the lack of tabs in OmniWeb ("yet." something good is coming in 5.0). Since you seem to be a download fanatic, you should go try out OmniWeb 4.2.1 (http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omniweb/) and get a feel for how it works and have a look at its download manager. Important note: 4.2 still uses the antiquated rendering engine and is still relatively slow and doesn't conform to all technologies like CSS and DHTML and other goodies. 4.5 fixes all that.

I'd really like to go with Omniweb for whatever I can't use Safari for, but there are just too many free browsers on the market to validate choosing a shareware browser. I'm poor. :(

[cboth]

Originally posted by drumbug1
I agree. I haven't used IE on my Mac (or the PC's at work) since about September. What sites are you people looking at that only work in IE? I don't know of any. :???:
I tried to print an E-ticket on www.usairways.com Sunday and they would only accept IE.:\

[Brad]

Originally posted by tonton
I'd really like to go with Omniweb for whatever I can't use Safari for, but there are just too many free browsers on the market to validate choosing a shareware browser. I'm poor. :( OmniWeb 4.5 will have the same licensing scheme that 4.x already has. Yes, it is considered shareware, but it is not limiting or crippled in any way. The only thing you get when it's not registered is the occasional little reminder (and they're usually pretty funny) when you launch the program. There's no forced timed delay with the reminder, either, like there is with apps like GraphicConverter or Pacifist.

You can use OmniWeb for free for as long as you want.

[Paul]

Originally posted by Aquatic
"Peoplesoft blows" as someone here eloquently put it.
that would be me ;)
I have to use it to log my hours up at the computer lab I work at up at BC...:grumble:

[serrano]

Originally posted by Leonis
Slightly off topic.

One feature that I really want to see in Safari 1.0 is the ability to "emulate" itself and Internet Explorer for Windows. If this feature is included then we will not have to worry about going to some sites that require IE on a PC

It already has that feature.

defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1

[Barto]

Originally posted by serrano
It already has that feature.

defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1

:lol:

Sometimes all you can do is laugh...

[tommy_thompson]

I think what people are missing here is not the fact that IE is in bad need of an update ( I am still forced to use it on occasion, for work related stuff, since places where I download photos ) make you use IE, cause their webmonkeys are not smart enough to test it out on multiple browsers. :devil: I really don't think they would discontinue IE for Mac just yet, matter of fact - probably to everyone's horror- we need it around for these types of things, or our boss men will come clamouring down on us, stating that Mac's cannot even get into websites. MS does control alot of the format on the web, and if IE were to blow off the face of the earth, 95% of my web stuff would be unaffected- however when we need it the other 5% of the time- it'd be "nice to have." So again-recap- for the majority of my internet dealings, I don't use it. But for some unfortunate webmonkies who don't test their stuff out on Netscape, or anything else- this will ulitimately give us the "need" to have IE..no matter how little we use it. We Lose IE..MS can lengthen the gap on the internet. Proprietary stuff abounds. Should have broken them up.

[SoopaDrive]

Originally posted by tommy_thompson
We Lose IE..MS can lengthen the gap on the internet.

I can just see M$ laughing it up right now. :mad:
It hurts to realize just how dependent Apple is on Microsoft sometimes.
Lousy webmonkeys... :grumble:

[kelib]

Sadly I can't be without it. At least 3 of my regulars (All Car Sites) only seem to work in IE. Some of them worked in Mozilla until the latest update. The Java based configurators only work in IE :mad:

[cboth]

Being a recent convert to the Mac world I have enjoyed the experience very much. One thing I have noticed with Safari is that it does not accept right click. No reason that it should as Mac doesn't advocate it. IE supports it very nicely and made me feel more at home when I switched.

[iBrowse]

Oh yeah, my heart's breaking...:D Seriously, I just used IE about 30 minutes ago for the first time in *at least* 5 months. I think I've used it 4 times since I discovered Chimera/Camino and OmniWeb quite a while ago. What drive me crazy is that the only sites that absolutely require IE happen to be the sites that shouldn't suck, like filling out my forms online for my financial aid, which I did tonight, or checking the status of my tax return on the IRS site, and checking my grades on my college's website. At least I don't have to use it that much. Hopefully no more IE on Mac and more Safari means a better first impression for PC users that might switch. I've seen people sit down at a Mac that have never seen OS X before open up IE and with in minutes say something like "That's why I don't like Macs.."

[Barto]

Originally posted by cboth
Being a recent convert to the Mac world I have enjoyed the experience very much. One thing I have noticed with Safari is that it does not accept right click. No reason that it should as Mac doesn't advocate it. IE supports it very nicely and made me feel more at home when I switched.

Here's how Microsoft developed IE for Mac OS X.

They replaced Bill Gate's toilet seat with a clamshell iBook. He didn't notice the difference, BTW.

http://www.apple.com/safari
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/camino/

Stop eating Bill Gates' shit and get yourself one of the above.

Barto

PS Not only does Safari support right click (I don't know WTF you're doing wrong), it supports middle click for opening links in tabs!

[Chucker]

Originally posted by Barto
Here's how Microsoft developed IE for Mac OS X.

They replaced Bill Gate's toilet seat with a clamshell iBook. He didn't notice the difference, BTW.

You should realize that at the time of release, IE5/mac's engine was far superior to IE6/win's. MSN for OS X has a new version of that engine which is once again loads better.

[photoguy]

The only thing that I use IE for is to log on to my router. When Safari first came out I redid my website for Safari and nutscape. Then I checked it for IE. I use Safari for just about everything now, banking , irs and such. I haven't had any problems yet. All I can say is good by and so long IE.:devil:

[mrmister]

"MSN for OS X has a new version of that engine which is once again loads better."

And this helps us how?

[Chucker]

Originally posted by mrmister
"MSN for OS X has a new version of that engine which is once again loads better."

And this helps us how?

This tells us that not all Microsoft programmers are "full of crap", as Barto puts it.

[Brad]

Originally posted by Chucker
This tells us that not all Microsoft programmers are "full of crap", as Barto puts it. Not by far, though. You have to PAY to use the new MSN browser. Thus, it's completely useless to most Mac users. Of course, I suppose the programmers aren't entirely to blame for that.

That does, however, say that the MacBU is "full of crap". :)

[tommy_thompson]

Well, Sadly-until the legal system grows "some" and rechews MS a new brown-eye that is massively leaky- those guys have a corner on the market even still. They in more than one way conrtrol standars on the internet. I too can log into my router with other broswers..but some commands it does not execute correctly, thus I am stuck once again with IE. MS is the mean uncle that people secretly want to poison-but are too afraid to.

[mrmister]

Hmmm. Luckily I don't seem to need IE for anything (knock wood).

[rok]

as long as there is a commitment from apple to stay compatible with recent microsoft offerings, i don't think i would care.

yes, yes, the media would eat it up and say "apple is doomed," but they said that with every other breath between 1996-1998, and look where it got them.

one of the many reasons that pc users would scoff at macs was the slow-ass internet explorer. well, safari blows the doors off that argument. powerpoint was the only game in town, but now keynote is pretty damn cool -- at least for a 1.x release, and what, one-fifth the price??? (hey anyone remember kai's power show? you could do some cool stuff in that, but it dies along with metacreations... anyhoo)

and honestly, many of the "internet explorer only" web sites are constructed to make up for the insane inadequacies of internet explorer

hell, ask anyone, including myself, just how much fun it's been to keep up with the CSS standards that microsoft makes, break, makes up, breaks again, and now seems to have repaired (but not COMPLETELY)... yet i STILL have to support that crap they were making two years ago, because of how slow people are to upgrade without a gun to their head. i can only assume the same crap occurs with .asp, iis servers, and their ilk.

i finally feel like apple has enough cash to actually keep up with microsoft at its own game, as well as shoving standards down their throats. i know every web designer worth their mouse would agree with me on that one (though don't get me wrong -- those who worked on netscape 4.x shoudl also be dragged out into the street and shot with bb guns repeatedly).

[rok]

Originally posted by tommy_thompson
Well, Sadly-until the legal system grows "some" and rechews MS a new brown-eye that is massively leaky- those guys have a corner on the market even still. They in more than one way conrtrol standars on the internet. I too can log into my router with other broswers..but some commands it does not execute correctly, thus I am stuck once again with IE. MS is the mean uncle that people secretly want to poison-but are too afraid to.

all i have to say is just wait -- someday, microsoft windows is going to be solely responsible for some horrible tragedy or security breakdown. provided we all survive the aftermath, people might actually start to wise up.

basically, you only start backing up after you lose some critical data. you only consider changing once something really bad happens...

[cboth]

Originally posted by Barto
Here's how Microsoft developed IE for Mac OS X.

They replaced Bill Gate's toilet seat with a clamshell iBook. He didn't notice the difference, BTW.

http://www.apple.com/safari
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/camino/

Stop eating Bill Gates' shit and get yourself one of the above.

Barto

PS Not only does Safari support right click (I don't know WTF you're doing wrong), it supports middle click for opening links in tabs!

Probably living on the wrong side of the world does get right click and left click confused. I don't think your right click does what my right click does. :)

[Chucker]

Originally posted by Brad
Not by far, though. You have to PAY to use the new MSN browser. Thus, it's completely useless to most Mac users. Of course, I suppose the programmers aren't entirely to blame for that.

That does, however, say that the MacBU is "full of crap". :)

I just don't feel comfortable hearing about IE's "crappy engine" when in fact one of the major contributors to the CSS standards writes large parts of it.