New Powerbooks + iBooks 6. nov! [Archive]

Outsider

11-01-2002, 10:52 AM

[quote]Originally posted by robster:
cool! just sold my Ti667 in readiness as I am sick of hulking it around and being scared of denting/scratching it....
My money is ready for the iBook.
But does anyone have any firm info on whether they will make it a 13" screen/widescreen? I hoping bluetooth is a no-brainer as well as 800mhz g3's.
I'm about to throw the pismo i'm using into a river it's SO slow in 10.2, although it is pretty loaded and gets a hammering.<hr></blockquote>

I have pretty solid info that the iBooks will be no more than 700/800MHz speed bumps. No screen changes. I don't think BT will make it either.

whoami

11-01-2002, 11:19 AM

------->outsider.
here's my question, my wife bought a ibook 700 about 13 days ago, there is only one day left to return it. there is a 15% restock fee, do you think it's worth the fee to get the latest ibook when it comes out? thanks man! :)

robster

11-01-2002, 11:20 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:


I have pretty solid info that the iBooks will be no more than 700/800MHz speed bumps. No screen changes. I don't think BT will make it either.<hr></blockquote>

Thanks, man...not really what I wanted to hear but it gives me a guide on what to do...
I'm guessing a form factor change won't hit till next year, May-June ish...

I'll buy next week then

Edit! One more thing will it get a Graphics card update?

[ 11-01-2002: Message edited by: robster ]

applenut

11-01-2002, 11:21 AM

I am expecting very competitive pricing on these... I think we may be surprised with that, especially if they are just speedbumps.

progmac

11-01-2002, 11:29 AM

[quote]Originally posted by whoami:
------->outsider.
here's my question, my wife bought a ibook 700 about 13 days ago, there is only one day left to return it. there is a 15% restock fee, do you think it's worth the fee to get the latest ibook when it comes out? thanks man! :) <hr></blockquote>
Not really...the 700 ibook is a solid performer, and with the restocking fee i doubt you would come out ahead. Where did you purchase it?

whoami

11-01-2002, 11:52 AM

comp-usa unfortunatly!
thanks for the advice!

Bigc

11-01-2002, 12:27 PM

What a surpise, since Nov. 5th is election day....

MacsRGood4U

11-01-2002, 12:32 PM

I suggested the Nov. 6 date in another thread on this subject. Also, MS is introducing the tablet PCs (from various companies) using their software on Nov. 7. It would be great if Apple trumped them with some software additions to the iBook and TiBook. I don't think Apple has a tablet ready for prime time. Redesigned laptops will come early next year, probably at MWSF and they'll be hybrid laptop/tablets. (Take one, every 6 hours with a full glass of ginseng tea.)

Krassy

11-01-2002, 12:32 PM

no live-conference? no steve speaking? no presentation of a new product? ... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

KidRed

11-01-2002, 01:00 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MacsRGood4U:
I suggested the Nov. 6 date in another thread on this subject. Also, MS is introducing the tablet PCs (from various companies) using their software on Nov. 7. It would be great if Apple trumped them with some software additions to the iBook and TiBook. I don't think Apple has a tablet ready for prime time. Redesigned laptops will come early next year, probably at MWSF and they'll be hybrid laptop/tablets. (Take one, every 6 hours with a full glass of ginseng tea.)<hr></blockquote>

Redsigned laptops in 2 months? Doubtful. May at the earliest.

Bodhi

11-01-2002, 01:31 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Krassy:
no live-conference? no steve speaking? no presentation of a new product? ... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <hr></blockquote>

To announce a 100MHz speed bump? Not necessary.

EmAn

11-01-2002, 01:50 PM

Leonis

11-01-2002, 02:18 PM

macuser claimed that the new PowerBook will be 933Mhz top. Not GHz

satchmo

11-01-2002, 02:20 PM

Wouldn't you love to see a 13" widescreen iBook G3/ 800 /superdrive priced the same price as the current 12" 700/ combo ($1499)?

I don't think this is too far fetched?
Of course I'd still rather the iBooks go G4.

trailmaster308

11-01-2002, 02:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Leonis:
macuser claimed that the new PowerBook will be 933Mhz top. Not GHz<hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry but thats just sad! What about ram? Still SD-RAM?? I bet so. :mad:

Leonis

11-01-2002, 02:24 PM

If those rumors are true

We are going to see lame upgrade to both PowerBook and iBook. And no rev up on iMac. Same overpriced/underpowered PowerMac

Apple is going to see another big red quarter.......I am afraid

[ 11-01-2002: Message edited by: Leonis ]

Rupert

11-01-2002, 02:26 PM

satchmo-

I think your wish is possible and reasonable except for the superdrive.

I expect the new iBook to be 13" (don't know about widescreen) with an 800 MHz G3 for $1499.

mattbr

11-01-2002, 03:08 PM

to lend credence to the rumors, apple switzerland has posted a 20% discount on the whole portable line. it's good until next monday (nov.4th)...

I Have Questions

11-01-2002, 04:32 PM

All I really wanted from the PB update was a 64 MB video card, and no one seems to think this is likely. Damn, damn, damn. :mad:

Also, 933 will be disappointing after waiting this long. 1GHz w/ 64 MB Radeon and my money belonged to Apple in a heartbeat. 933 and 32 MB? Maybe.

(Edit: Just saw that macuser uk is reporting that not only will video cards still be only 32 MB instead of 64, but that they will continue using the Radeon 7500 instead of the 9500!!! WTF? Of course, I should just be waiting for an iMac instead, and go complain in that thread! That's even worse...)

[ 11-01-2002: Message edited by: I Have Questions ]

sunkist

11-01-2002, 05:55 PM

Here's the new rule:

You can't get upset about rumors that, in the very recent past, have been false. If I like what comes out the pipe on the 6th, I am going to make the PC->Apple switch. But there's no way I am going to get upset about everyone's speculation. It just isn't worth it. What I'm saying is made totally in good spirits as we all want the new TiBooks to kick some major butt. But stay excited about what could happen, instead of being upset about what might not happen. Even though people are saying there might not be a 1ghz/64mb Raedon/superdrive that I would buy in a heartbeat, I am still excited that they could all be guessing wrong! They pulled the company out of the toilet to make the best looking machines ever made, don't under estimate em. ;)

stunned

11-01-2002, 07:17 PM

[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:


:eek: Competitive pricing from Apple?<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

DHagan4755

11-01-2002, 09:25 PM

Seanyepez from the MacNN boards in the infamous thread about New PowerBooks stated that his sources said new iBooks with G4 processors. Low-end at 600 MHZ and high-end at 733 MHz. I just think, that, in combination with 13-inch widescreen displays is interesting, don't you?

Outsider

11-01-2002, 09:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by DHagan4755:
Seanyepez from the MacNN boards in the infamous thread about New PowerBooks stated that his sources said new iBooks with G4 processors. Low-end at 600 MHZ and high-end at 733 MHz. I just think, that, in combination with 13-inch widescreen displays is interesting, don't you?<hr></blockquote>

You both are going to be so disappointed. Sorry.

Leonis

11-01-2002, 10:25 PM

That's no way iBook will have G4 cpu....at least for now

Ensign Pulver

11-01-2002, 10:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by I Have Questions:
[QB]1GHz w/ 64 MB Radeon and my money belonged to Apple in a heartbeat. 933 and 32 MB? Maybe.
<hr></blockquote>

You took the words right out of my mouth. The graphics card is all I'm waiting for.

Radeon 9000 64? YES! :D
Radeon 900 32? Maybe <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Radeon 7500 32? No way! :mad:

apple.otaku

11-02-2002, 12:38 AM

I wouldn't put much faith into the Macworld UK article. I think they pulled it out of thin air. No Superdrives because of Pioneer? Panasonic is making the Superdrive for the PowerBook, not Pioneer. Recent iMacs are shipping with Superdrives made by Hitachi. Nothing rests on the shoulders of Pioneer. Speeds of 867 and 933 Mhz? I doubt they would go for only a 66 Mhz difference. More likely 800 and 933 Mhz. I think Ryan Meader writes thei material.

Ensign Pulver

11-02-2002, 01:48 AM

Think Secret has revealed iBook pricing. Speed bumps, all G3, same case, $200 price cuts across the board

Current
600 MHz
$1,199

700 MHz
$1,499

700 MHz
$1,799

Updated
700 MHz
$999

800 MHz
$1,299

800 MHz
$1,499

<a href="http://www.thinksecret.com/news/nov6ibooks.html" target="_blank">Link.</a>

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: Ensign Pulver ]

FlashGordon

11-02-2002, 01:52 AM

I am sorry but, honestly, it is a bit ridiculous for Apple to put off updating a product seven months and then only add the 133mhz and bluetooth to the Powerbook. Seriously, that cannot be a engineering choice, an 8th grade science class could do that. I guess I just had higher thoughts of what Apple could do. I am sure they are just holding back to put it all in some later model (just in time to be obsolete I am sure). Apple has dissapointed on every release for the last 2 years, so why should I be surprised. If only they could make them pretty AND fast. Sorry but I have put off buying a Powerbook for 9 months and they just keep letting me down. It still does not meet the needs I put on a computer that I would pay 4 grand for.

I just hope the 933, 7500 Radeon rumors are wrong.

FlashGordon

11-02-2002, 01:55 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Ensign Pulver:
Think Secret has revealed iBook pricing. Speed bumps, all G3, same case, $200 price cuts across the board

Current
600 MHz
$1,199

700 MHz
$1,499

700 MHz
$1,799

Updated
700 MHz
$999

800 MHz
$1,299

800 MHz
$1,499

<a href="http://www.thinksecret.com/news/nov6ibooks.html" target="_blank">Link.</a>

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: Ensign Pulver ]<hr></blockquote>

At least these numbers are a good deal, especially for Apple. Now if they stopped crippling the G3 with a 100 bus

Nebrie

11-02-2002, 02:33 AM

[quote]Originally posted by FlashGordon:
I am sorry but, honestly, it is a bit ridiculous for Apple to put off updating a product seven months and then only add the 133mhz and bluetooth to the Powerbook. Seriously, that cannot be a engineering choice, an 8th grade science class could do that. I guess I just had higher thoughts of what Apple could do. I am sure they are just holding back to put it all in some later model (just in time to be obsolete I am sure). Apple has dissapointed on every release for the last 2 years, so why should I be surprised. If only they could make them pretty AND fast. Sorry but I have put off buying a Powerbook for 9 months and they just keep letting me down. It still does not meet the needs I put on a computer that I would pay 4 grand for.

I just hope the 933, 7500 Radeon rumors are wrong.<hr></blockquote>

"put off updating for seven months"? So you're accusing them of not updating the product right after they released it? sheesh. Just over 6 months is fast for a powerbook upgrade cycle.

FlashGordon

11-02-2002, 02:45 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Nebrie:


"put off updating for seven months"? So you're accusing them of not updating the product right after they released it? sheesh. Just over 6 months is fast for a powerbook upgrade cycle.<hr></blockquote>

Read the whole post if you are going to flame me jack ass. The april 29th update did not meet my expectations, so I waited...and waited...and waited...and now I get 133 mhz, and thats it. And I did not say anything about the cycle, I am aware of the 6 month Apple trend, just not the 6 months and ONLY 16% clock increase and bluetooth(worthless to 90% of people including myself)trend. Now do you understand what I meant and why I am disapointed or do I need to explain it some more for you, Nebrie?

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: FlashGordon ]

Barto

11-02-2002, 03:21 AM

[quote]Originally posted by I Have Questions:
[QB]All I really wanted from the PB update was a 64 MB video card, and no one seems to think this is likely. Damn, damn, damn. :mad:
<hr></blockquote>

Why in gods name would you want 64mb of VRAM in a laptop???

Barto

robster

11-02-2002, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by Barto:
[q]Why in gods name would you want 64mb of VRAM in a laptop???
<hr></blockquote>

Because QE is VRAM hungry and we have to do some work that involves using that VRAM for something other than screen-drawing pulsing interface buttons

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: robster ]

robster

11-02-2002, 04:01 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:


You both are going to be so disappointed. Sorry.<hr></blockquote>

Hey Outsider, I'm not bothered about the G4 but do you KNOW we won't get a 13" screen? What about bluetooth?
Can you lay it on the line...list the specs for us

Ensign Pulver

11-02-2002, 04:21 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Barto:


Why in gods name would you want 64mb of VRAM in a laptop???

Barto<hr></blockquote>

You're kidding right? Since the graphics card on any laptop is set for the life of the machine, here's a bunch of reasons.

1. Excellent performance on current games

2. Decent performance on future games

3. Superior Quartz Extreme support, especially down the road as the technology is further integrated with the OS and third party apps

4. Improved DVD playback

5. Improved dual display support

6. Portable 3D rendering rivaling current desktops.

7. Parity with high end Wintel laptops

8. "128k ought to be enough for anybody" and similar past ridiculous statements regarding current technology supposedly reaching its effective limit.

Eugene

11-02-2002, 04:44 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Barto:


Why in gods name would you want 64mb of VRAM in a laptop???

Barto<hr></blockquote>

A 1920x1200 pixel 23 inch Apple Cinema High Definition Display running alongside the built-in 1280x854 pixel display...maybe?

RodUK

11-02-2002, 06:36 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Leonis:
macuser claimed that the new PowerBook will be 933Mhz top. Not GHz<hr></blockquote>

The whole report can be found <a href="http://www.macuser.co.uk" target="_blank">here</a> (free subscription required?)

Apple will upgrade the entire PowerBook range by the end of this month, according to US industry insiders. However the new line is expected to offer little more than a speed bump and, possibly, built-in Bluetooth capability.

Over the past two months inventory of today's 667MHz and 800MHz PowerBook G4s has been run down in Apple's distribution channels. Distribution giant Ingram Micro now has less than three weeks worth of PowerMacs in its US warehouses, and sources at the company report that Apple has not shipped any PowerBooks to it for some time.

Apple reported a drop of nearly 40 per cent in unit sales for the PowerBook during its September financial quarter (compared to the previous three months) another sign that the range is being destocked ready for an upgrade.

Sources close to Apple familiar with the new machines said that, contrary to industry rumours, the new PowerBooks will not breach the psychologically important 1GHz barrier, due to problems with cooling and battery life. Instead the fastest PowerBook will be 933MHz (up from 867MHz) and the entry level 667MHz model will be speed-bumped to 867MHz.

The system bus will continue to run at 133MHz, rather than moving to the 167MHz motherboard introduced with the current top of the range Power Mac G4s, said the sources.

The same sources have also ruled out the introduction of a SuperDrive-equipped model, as the drive manufacturer, Pioneer, has not yet rolled out a slot-loading version with a form factor that fits the PowerBook's casing.

'Apple is not going to change the PowerBook's casing, even though its getting on for nearly two years since it first came out, and that means no SuperDrive. But this will be probably be the last minor upgrade before a whole new PowerBook design comes out,' said one source.

The upgraded PowerBooks will stick with the existing ATI 7500 Mobility Radeon graphics rather than upgrading to the more powerful ATI 9500 Mobility system

However, one potential surprise, according to one source, will be the introduction of built-in Bluetooth connectivity, which would make the PowerBooks the first ever Macs to support the short range wireless technology without requiring an adaptor. Since the release of Mac OS X 10.2 which supports Bluetooth and the launch of iSync, the first Mac application to make use of the technology, Apple has become one of the leading supporters of the emerging standard. And the company is expected to unveil Bluetooth peripherals as early as next January.

There are some mistakes, I think 867MHz should be 800MHz in both cases, but what a difference an extra 67MHz would make to the 933MHz.

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: RodUK ]

satchmo

11-02-2002, 08:36 AM

[quote]Originally posted by RodUK:


However, one potential surprise, according to one source, will be the introduction of built-in Bluetooth connectivity, which would make the PowerBooks the first ever Macs to support the short range wireless technology without requiring an adaptor. Since the release of Mac OS X 10.2 which supports Bluetooth and the launch of iSync, the first Mac application to make use of the technology, Apple has become one of the leading supporters of the emerging standard. And the company is expected to unveil Bluetooth peripherals as early as next January.

]<hr></blockquote>

Is it just me or does anyone else not get excited by Bluetooth?
If this article is correct and if Bluetooth is "the feature" reason to upgrade to the new Powerbooks, I'll pass.

off/lang

11-02-2002, 08:43 AM

photoeditor

11-02-2002, 08:45 AM

The iBook is effectively a $300 price cut for the midrange model, if the Think Secret report is correct -- $200 in real money, plus $100 in moving to a "bigger hard drive" which I would assume to be the 30GB which is currently a $100 option.

It's a very good move for the iBook line; if they seem hung up on the MHz issue with the PowerBook, at least they're doing the next best thing and pricing the iBook appropriately and reasonably competitively.

I'm more sure than ever that the G4 is turning out to be rather like the Pentium 4-M in terms of heat and power usage -- there's simply no way of sticking 1GHz to 1.2GHz chips in that tiny titanium case without melting it. So, barring a major development on the processor front, Apple would have to relegate the TiBook to midrage status and bring out a new eight pound model for power users with a faster processor and a bigger cooling fan. We'll see what's in store next summer.

RodUK

11-02-2002, 08:57 AM

[quote]Originally posted by satchmo:


Is it just me or does anyone else not get excited by Bluetooth?
If this article is correct and if Bluetooth is "the feature" reason to upgrade to the new Powerbooks, I'll pass.<hr></blockquote>

I'm with you, especially when you can buy a USB Bluetooth adaptor like the D-Link or Palladio for around £45 anyway.

satchmo

11-02-2002, 09:20 AM

[quote]Originally posted by photoeditor:

It's a very good move for the iBook line; if they seem hung up on the MHz issue with the PowerBook, at least they're doing the next best thing and pricing the iBook appropriately and reasonably competitively.

I'm more sure than ever that the G4 is turning out to be rather like the Pentium 4-M in terms of heat and power usage -- there's simply no way of sticking 1GHz to 1.2GHz chips in that tiny titanium case without melting it. So, barring a major development on the processor front, Apple would have to relegate the TiBook to midrage status and bring out a new eight pound model for power users with a faster processor and a bigger cooling fan. We'll see what's in store next summer.<hr></blockquote>

While I welcome any price cut, as outlined at ThinkSecret, I'm still not convinced about the G3 chip. If I'm finding a 700 G4 iMac to be barely usable in OSX, I'm not sure I'd want a G3 700 or even 800 iBook.
But you've got a point given that Powerbooks will remain relatively slow in the G4 line and hence restricts the possibility of the iBooks going there.

Amorph

11-02-2002, 10:58 AM

If the Think Secret report is true (and they've been pretty good) then the strategy for the PowerBooks might mirror the strategy for the iBooks: A modest upgrade combined with a significant price cut.

They've done it before with the PowerBooks. Right about this time of year, if memory serves.

applenut

11-02-2002, 01:34 PM

[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:


:eek: Competitive pricing from Apple?<hr></blockquote>

ahem.... told you so

neutrino23

11-02-2002, 02:03 PM

[quote]Originally posted by satchmo:


While I welcome any price cut, as outlined at ThinkSecret, I'm still not convinced about the G3 chip. If I'm finding a 700 G4 iMac to be barely usable in OSX, I'm not sure I'd want a G3 700 or even 800 iBook.
But you've got a point given that Powerbooks will remain relatively slow in the G4 line and hence restricts the possibility of the iBooks going there.<hr></blockquote>

We haven't seen the new iBook so we can't evaluate it, however, you have to consider more than the processor. Cache size, hard drive performance, video card and such will also have major effects on real world performance.

It is becoming a tired discussion point but a lot OS X is actually quite fast while the GUI tends to drag. Applescript, networking, file copies and such are quite fast. Window resizing and scrolling could be better. This is also very subjective. When I played with the current 700MHz iBook at an Apple Store it seemed quite usable. An 800MHz iBook with a better graphics card and hard drive will be even better.

applenut

11-02-2002, 02:09 PM

[quote]Originally posted by neutrino23:

When I played with the current 700MHz iBook at an Apple Store it seemed quite usable. An 800MHz iBook with a better graphics card and hard drive will be even better.<hr></blockquote>

buying a machine a year after OS X 's release and describing it as seeming "quite usable" is pathetic.

at this point in time OS X's performance on new machines should be a non-issue.... but unfortunately it still is... especially on the G3 based iBook line.

satchmo

11-02-2002, 03:40 PM

Nebrie

11-02-2002, 03:59 PM

applenut

11-02-2002, 04:32 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Nebrie:


Go buy a PC and some medication, you need them both.<hr></blockquote>

does tha help or solve anything..... there's nothing stupider than someone whining about a product before it is even released except for maybe someone who makes posts like you just did.

KidRed

11-02-2002, 04:45 PM

Is 'stupider' a word? hehe

Also, sad, that TS didn't mention price cuts for the PB :( Nice to see on the iBook, should really do well to move a lot of those, but why not the same for te PB? Apple seems to be making consumer items better priced then the pros. I guess they think pros have more cash to spend.

DHagan4755

11-02-2002, 04:59 PM

I hope they lower the price on the PowerBook. It should be $1999 and $2599. Not $2599 and $3199. I would like to add that I would appreciate a PowerBook that is smaller, in size. Like a 14 inch screen as opposed to a 15 incher.

Paul

11-02-2002, 05:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by DHagan4755:
I hope they lower the price on the PowerBook. It should be $1999 and $2599. Not $2599 and $3199. I would like to add that I would appreciate a PowerBook that is smaller, in size. Like a 14 inch screen as opposed to a 15 incher.<hr></blockquote>

then why dont you get a 14" iBook, seems like what you want

applenut

11-02-2002, 05:36 PM

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
Is 'stupider' a word? hehe

<hr></blockquote>

of course it is :D

KidRed

11-02-2002, 05:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by DHagan4755:
I hope they lower the price on the PowerBook. It should be $1999 and $2599. Not $2599 and $3199. I would like to add that I would appreciate a PowerBook that is smaller, in size. Like a 14 inch screen as opposed to a 15 incher.<hr></blockquote>

That would be sweet, then I could get the high end for the lowend price.

Eugene

11-02-2002, 06:23 PM

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:


buying a machine a year after OS X 's release and describing it as seeming "quite usable" is pathetic.

at this point in time OS X's performance on new machines should be a non-issue.... but unfortunately it still is... especially on the G3 based iBook line.<hr></blockquote>

I tend to blame OS X for this more than anything. As OS X is barely 1.5 year's old, it isn't so surprising though.

RazzFazz

11-02-2002, 06:40 PM

[quote]Originally posted by RodUK:

The upgraded PowerBooks will stick with the existing ATI 7500 Mobility Radeon graphics rather than upgrading to the more powerful ATI 9500 Mobility system
<hr></blockquote>

There is no such thing as a Radeon 9500 mobile, at least as of now. The current top-of-the-line mobile GPU from ATI is the Radeon 9000 mobile, according to their website.

Bye,
RazzFazz

RazzFazz

11-02-2002, 06:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ensign Pulver:

4. Improved DVD playback
<hr></blockquote>

How in the world are 64MB of VRAM going to improve your DVD playback, of all things?

[quote]
Oh, and
8. "128k ought to be enough for anybody" and similar past ridiculous statements regarding current technology supposedly reaching its effective limit.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, it was 640k, not 128k.

Bye,
RazzFazz

Frost

11-02-2002, 07:11 PM

[quote]Originally posted by satchmo:


Is it just me or does anyone else not get excited by Bluetooth?
If this article is correct and if Bluetooth is "the feature" reason to upgrade to the new Powerbooks, I'll pass.<hr></blockquote>
When Apple swiched from ADB to USB I didn't see the point. I figured back then that they should skip USB and go straight to firewire. Today I have a USB scroll optical mouse, joystick. graphics pad, USB printer, compact flash card reader, and a mytv2go.

I had a system with firewire for about a year before I had any devices. Today I have an iPod and 2 firewire drives.

Bluetooth may be like infrared. I have had 2 laptops with infrared and never used it.
I don't have any plans for any bluetooth devices currently, well maybe a cellphone some day. However, I didn't have any plans for USB or Firewire either. Will bluetooth devices be useful? Most things you can do with bluetooth you probably can do with a USB cable. If I look under, my desk I realize that I don't really want more cables. You never know, but it has to start somewhere. Becoming a standard part gives it a shot at being used.

DHagan4755

11-02-2002, 07:46 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Paul:


then why dont you get a 14" iBook, seems like what you want<hr></blockquote>No, I don't want a G3 and polycarbonate plastic...I want a "Mini Ti," if you will.

Stoo

11-03-2002, 11:00 AM

While I don't mind polycarbonate, a small, G4 based laptop would indeed be luvverly. I'd buy one.

Algol

11-03-2002, 11:07 AM

OS X is quite fast for me on my iMac G4. Actually it is as fast as OS 9 was. Maybe you guys, who are finding it very slow, should try a fresh install. I did this to my iMac when 10.2 came out because I wanted 9 on a different partition. I noticed a good 20% speed increase on my machine after doing so. A very obvious 20%. I don't know why this effects it so much but I have sense done the same thing to all of our Macs. The PowerMac G4867 runs better and faster, the Cube 450 is substantially faster, and my iMac G4 is much more fluent.

I am not just saying that a fresh install of 10.2 runs faster that an old install of 10.2. But that a fresh install of 10.2 runs better, much better, than using the upgrade function. Don't ask me why but I have noticed this on 3 computers now.

Jay Contonio

11-03-2002, 12:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by FlashGordon:


Read the whole post if you are going to flame me jack ass. The april 29th update did not meet my expectations, so I waited...and waited...and waited...and now I get 133 mhz, and thats it. And I did not say anything about the cycle, I am aware of the 6 month Apple trend, just not the 6 months and ONLY 16% clock increase and bluetooth(worthless to 90% of people including myself)trend. Now do you understand what I meant and why I am disapointed or do I need to explain it some more for you, Nebrie?

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: FlashGordon ]<hr></blockquote>

It's your own damn fault you waited, not Apple's. You can't expect them to release products in mind of what YOU want. How selfish...

So now you are going to wait another 6 months, and just see another small leap in MHz, and you're going to complain then. But by then I am sure something like "Screw Macs, I am getting a PC" will come out of your mouth.

If you need a computer now, buy now. If you don't, then shut up.

jwdawso

11-03-2002, 01:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by FlashGordon:


Read the whole post if you are going to flame me jack ass. The april 29th update did not meet my expectations, so I waited...and waited...and waited...and now I get 133 mhz, and thats it. And I did not say anything about the cycle, I am aware of the 6 month Apple trend, just not the 6 months and ONLY 16% clock increase and bluetooth(worthless to 90% of people including myself)trend. Now do you understand what I meant and why I am disapointed or do I need to explain it some more for you, Nebrie?

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: FlashGordon ]<hr></blockquote>

Hey Flash, we're all disappointed that Apple's product doesn't beat the youknowwhat out of PCs in every respect - price, performance, applications, ease of use, etc! Your original post sortof bashed Apple engineering - which a lot of us think is pretty awesome - but I'm with you on the disappointment. My son has an iBook 600mhz and we think it's great, but it would be way better - because it's performance does sometimes get in the way - if it had a G4 at 800Mhz or more and a 32mb graphics card. I just wish that all the Mac's had twice the Mhz and the same (or lower!!) price. I'm sure Apple wishes that too!

Gon

11-03-2002, 06:39 PM

I'm a desktop PC user, but almost 100% decided on getting an Apple laptop next. I don't need to tell you what's good about them :) so I'll list some things that I think could be made better.

- OS user interface, specifically, using the computer with keyboard only. Trackpads just plain suck IMHO, and I don't want to carry a regular mouse just to make a laptop usable. I've used a friend's Powerbook with all the shortcuts OS X offers, and had to use the trackpad way too often. Why not copy the way Windows uses the Alt key in menus, and apply the same behaviour in Apple key?

- All-in-one design. To a limit this is nice, both for usability and for engineering (cost, power) reasons, but when it comes to expensive parts like optical drives, I'd hate to pay for CD-RW or DVD-R capability when I am only going to use DVD. Bothers me even more because optical drives are easily interchangable parts. (See next comment for a large part of the solution.)

- Powerbook modular bays. I don't particularly appreciate sacrificing useful features for a perceived "cool" factor.

- Pro features in iBook form factor. 12.1" screen, Powerbook level processor, video card, and especially dual monitor capability. The lack of latter on current iBooks is irritating because a) it's de facto standard on PC laptops no matter how cheap they are b) it costs almost nothing to add. And reasons for smaller screen? Portability, battery consumption, price, and the fact that on the desktop we can have huge external monitors anyway.

- Different design for Powerbook. I personally find the current one ugly compared to iBook (why the heck doesn't keyboard stretch across the whole Powerbook?) plus I hear the titanium scratches easily. The latter problem is just engineering, and could be corrected simply by anodizing the Ti parts, which hardens the surface. See <a href="http://www.1sks.com/images/benchmade/bm-42-1.jpg" target="_blank">this URL</a> for a knife with Ti handles, plain and anodized. I believe anodizing can be done in most colors, but blue and a sort of green seem the most common.

hoping to spark some discussion :)
- Gon

[ 11-03-2002: Message edited by: Gon ]

[ 11-03-2002: Message edited by: Gon ]

709

11-03-2002, 07:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
I am expecting very competitive pricing on these... I think we may be surprised with that, especially if they are just speedbumps.<hr></blockquote>

Hmm. I was just over at the MacNN forums, and apparently if you go through the entire checkout process at The Apple Store for either iBook or PB you'll see (under 180 day) iBook 'starting at 999.00' or PB 'starting at 2299.00'. Looks like we'll get 200 bucks lopped off the PowerBook as well!

kittylitterdesign

11-03-2002, 07:51 PM

bet you they don't!!!!

I still wager that it will be February 2003

Lets see - I hope you are right - but I bet you arn't!

:p

Spart

11-03-2002, 09:37 PM

[quote]Originally posted by kittylitterdesign:
bet you they don't!!!!

I still wager that it will be February 2003

Lets see - I hope you are right - but I bet you arn't!

:p <hr></blockquote>

How old are you?

apple.otaku

11-03-2002, 10:40 PM

Ugh. Judging from the full specs for the iBooks posted over at the <a href="http://www.powerpage.org/story.lasso?newsID=10160" target="_blank">PowerPage</a> it looks like we are in for a very boring update. They haven't posted PowerBook specs yet but I don't expect them to be much either. No Bluetooth. No Superdrive. Just minor speed bumps and price cuts for both the iBooks and PowerBooks. Sheesh. I'm glad I didn't put my PowerBook on eBay.

Spart

11-03-2002, 11:06 PM

[quote]Originally posted by apple.otaku:
No Superdrive.<hr></blockquote>

The 'No SuperDrive-equipped model' text on the page is in reference to the iBook models, not the PowerBook models. If you expected a SuperDrive in an iBook then you are really dreaming.

In the PowerBooks, however, that is still up in the air. ;)

Bigc

11-03-2002, 11:07 PM

[quote]Originally posted by 709:


Hmm. I was just over at the MacNN forums, and apparently if you go through the entire checkout process at The Apple Store for either iBook or PB you'll see (under 180 day) iBook 'starting at 999.00' or PB 'starting at 2299.00'. Looks like we'll get 200 bucks lopped off the PowerBook as well!<hr></blockquote>

Checkout the post near the bottom

<a href="http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&s=50009562&a=tpc&f=8300945231&m=7740967735&r=2720900835#2720900835" target="_blank">iBooker Post at MacArs</a>

apple.otaku

11-03-2002, 11:24 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Spart:


The 'No SuperDrive-equipped model' text on the page is in reference to the iBook models, not the PowerBook models. If you expected a SuperDrive in an iBook then you are really dreaming.

In the PowerBooks, however, that is still up in the air. ;) <hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I know. I'm just saying that I think they are holding out for January. We already know that both the iBooks and PowerBooks are getting $200 price cuts across the board. Prices starting at $999 for the iBook and $2299 for the PowerBook. It seems these are just holdovers, the bare minimum needed for decent Holiday sales.

Bogie

11-03-2002, 11:50 PM

Whoever said that Mac OS X is barely usable on a G3 600 needs to wake up. There are millions of iMac G3, Power Mac G3, PowerBook G3, and iBook G3 users that find Mac OS X completely usable.

709

11-04-2002, 01:16 AM

Oog. If those PowerPage specs are real I'll be disappointed. I was hoping for at least a system bus increase and more standard RAM. No mention of VRAM though. Maybe 32? If it stays at 16 my credit card will stay in my pocket as well. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[edit] Oh, and a CD-ROM drive on the low end? What happened to Rip / Mix / Burn? Surely a CD-RW would have been at least as inexpensive to include.

[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: 709 ]

JLL

11-04-2002, 02:45 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Gon:
dual monitor capability. The lack of latter on current iBooks is irritating because a) it's de facto standard on PC laptops no matter how cheap they are b) it costs almost nothing to add.<hr></blockquote>

And it'll take you two minutes to add it yourself.

Hawkeye_a

11-04-2002, 04:06 AM

[quote]Originally posted by satchmo:


Is it just me or does anyone else not get excited by Bluetooth?
If this article is correct and if Bluetooth is "the feature" reason to upgrade to the new Powerbooks, I'll pass.<hr></blockquote>

I totally agree with you on that. i have no bluetooth enabled device and i have no plans to invest in one anytime soon. the feature that will get me to consider the new powerbooks is either a Radeon 9500 M or a SuperDrive.

Apart from that, ith as to be said that Apple's pro-portable lineup has to come down in price to $1999 and $2799 (or similar).

What with this current economy and all, you have to cut prices to sell, and seeing how the iBook will dropp below $1000, i think it's high time the 15" entry level iMac does the same.

As for the PowerMac i think $1499 would be a great entry level price(since it has no monitor).

Bluetooth can wait until all Pro products have the Superdrive option (and personally, im betting on getting that Superdrived PowerBookG4 before Christmas, i have a feeling Apple will surprise us.)

[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: Hawkeye_a ]

Gon

11-04-2002, 04:09 AM

[quote]Originally posted by JLL:

And it'll take you two minutes to add it yourself.<hr></blockquote>So it only needs drivers? I suspected something like that but it just felt unbelievable they don't have the feature installed properly in the first place...

Thanks for the info.

- Gon

applenut

11-04-2002, 05:46 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Gon:
So it only needs drivers? I suspected something like that but it just felt unbelievable they don't have the feature installed properly in the first place...

Thanks for the info.

- Gon<hr></blockquote>

no, he's referring to a hack which in some cases leaves machines unusable... I don't know why he referred to that as a solution

JLL

11-04-2002, 08:05 AM

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:


no, he's referring to a hack which in some cases leaves machines unusable... I don't know why he referred to that as a solution<hr></blockquote>

I only heard of ONE who couldn't start his machine afterwards, and it was a owner of a 500 MHz iBook with a Rage chip, and the "hack" only works on iBooks with Radeon chips.

The "hack" works perfectly, and it is certainly a solution.

[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: JLL ]

KidRed

11-04-2002, 03:04 PM

I had posted this in my PB thread before JLL got it closed by linking to an iBook thread which had nothing to do with my topic and EmAn not investigating further closed it.

So anyway, here's what I posted in the now closed thread that has not been discussed in any other thread *ahem*

[quote] 867 G4
256K L2
1 MB L3
30 GB HD
256 MB RAM
Radeon 7500 (32 MB)
COMBO

$2299

1 Ghz G4
256K L2
1 MB L3
40 GB HD
512 MB RAM
Radeon 7500 (32 MB)
COMBO

$2999

From Apple Advertising Literature
<hr></blockquote>

This was posted over at MacNN. Not bad, but not sure either of the likelyhood.

JLL

11-04-2002, 03:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
I had posted this in my PB thread before JLL got it closed by linking to an iBook thread which had nothing to do with my topic and EmAn not investigating further closed it.<hr></blockquote>

Excuuuuse me!

The images you had in your post are in that thread which was the only thing I was trying to imply!!

1st page, post by jwdawso.

[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: JLL ]

Eugene

11-04-2002, 06:17 PM

KidRed, not invesitigating further, thought EmAn closed his thread. :)

I don't think EmAn has the power to close threads anymore.

murbot

11-04-2002, 06:22 PM

Oh, he does.. just not by clicking the "Close Thread" button.

:D

[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: murbot ]

KidRed

11-04-2002, 06:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by JLL:


Excuuuuse me!

The images you had in your post are in that thread which was the only thing I was trying to imply!!

1st page, post by jwdawso.

[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: JLL ]<hr></blockquote>

Yea, but your link was about iBooks and not PBs like my thread, so a mod closed the thread thinking it was repetitive.

Anyways, no comments on the specs? I thought I'd here some bitching and moaning or debunks.

FlashGordon

11-04-2002, 06:38 PM

Don't worry KidRed they arbitrarily or inconsistantly close threads all the time, it really has little effect on most of us anyway. The closed link did have its own subject, that another thread just barely got into, but who gives a damn lets just close it because we can. Like this is the only thread talking about a new Powerbook....yeah right try one of 5. Oh well, like it matters anyway, I won't miss it but the casual users will...screw them anyways right <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

The stats look good to me. I wish there was a Radeon 9000 but no dice. We will see Tues. or Wed. I am gonna buy what they release so heres hoping.

[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: FlashGordon ]

MacsRGood4U

11-04-2002, 07:10 PM

Cnet reports that dealers are expecting new iBooks but have heard nothing from Apple about new Powerbooks. We'll know on Wednesday I guess.

satchmo

11-04-2002, 08:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MacsRGood4U:
Cnet reports that dealers are expecting new iBooks but have heard nothing from Apple about new Powerbooks. We'll know on Wednesday I guess.<hr></blockquote>

I wonder if this isn't the best strategy anyways given the holiday season is around the corner.
A sub $1000 iBook may sell much more than a simple speed bumped Powerbook.

Perhaps Apple will bypass another Powerbook revision and unveil a new form factor at MWSF which is not that far off.

Paul

11-04-2002, 08:12 PM

im happy with the new specs... while it would have been nice to ahve a 867 machine instead of the 667 for $200 less, considering i got a deal (20% off) and have had the machine for 2 months now, i say that 2 months of use = 200MHz considering nothing else has changed

It woulda been nice if they had moved to DDR ram to save on batt life tho...

I was planning on selling my current 667 DVI to get the next low end (to my bro), but seeing as nothing but the proc changed, i'll pass (assuming this is true)... I'll probably get my brother to get teh 1300 iBook instead... looks like it is going to be a sweet little machine...

once again apple's laptops are going to be very competitive...

satchmo

11-04-2002, 08:20 PM

I would love to see Apple increase the resolution on the 14" model to further differentiate from the 12" models.

jante99

11-04-2002, 09:52 PM

If the iBook price will cap out at 1599 and the low end Powerbook is 2299, there is a big gap in price. A high resolution 14" ibook at 1899 would fill the gap nicely. If Apple wants more sales they are going to have to offer more choices. Dell sells a wide range of labtops aimed at different market segments. Apple tries to use the one size fits all method but it doesn't work.

Algol

11-04-2002, 11:16 PM

How about a 13.1" PowerBook for 1799 or something? apple could have the specs on it similar to the 14.1" iBook only it would have a smaller screen and cost more...oh and it would have a G4. Just an idea...

applenut

11-04-2002, 11:29 PM

[quote]Originally posted by JLL:


I only heard of ONE who couldn't start his machine afterwards, and it was a owner of a 500 MHz iBook with a Rage chip, and the "hack" only works on iBooks with Radeon chips.

The "hack" works perfectly, and it is certainly a solution.

[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: JLL ]<hr></blockquote>

anything that is completely unsupported by apple and would likely void your warranty is NOT a solution

MacsRGood4U

11-04-2002, 11:37 PM

Historically, Apple has never introduced a new computer this close to Xmas. Only updates have been made this late in the season. Completely new Powerbooks definately are on tap for MWSF as well as iBooks. MWSF should be very interesting.

KidRed

11-04-2002, 11:47 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MacsRGood4U:
Historically, Apple has never introduced a new computer this close to Xmas. Only updates have been made this late in the season. Completely new Powerbooks definately are on tap for MWSF as well as iBooks. MWSF should be very interesting.<hr></blockquote>

So you are saying bumped iBooks and PBs tomorrow and then 2 months later completely new portables? Sorry, if we get updates this week we won't see another one until March or May.

FlashGordon

11-05-2002, 12:11 AM

[quote]Originally posted by MacsRGood4U:
Historically, Apple has never introduced a new computer this close to Xmas. Only updates have been made this late in the season. Completely new Powerbooks definately are on tap for MWSF as well as iBooks. MWSF should be very interesting.<hr></blockquote>

Historically, Apple has never released an upgrade and then released a new model or upgrade two months later. It should be obvious that since your "definiteness" is based on your intuition and very little evidence is in your favor that nothing you have mentioned is definate at all.

FlashGordon

11-05-2002, 12:33 AM

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:


anything that is completely unsupported by apple and would likely void your warranty is NOT a solution<hr></blockquote>

Define "solution" then. It may not be a smart solution or even a good one, but if it is an action or process of solving a problem then it is a solution.

According to your goof-ball definition things that are not solutions include: any part installed by user or anyone else that is not a liscensed Apple technician, use of any non-Apple product (incuding RAM, hardrives, and video cards), and ANY modification done without the written permission of Apple. Doing any of the above things can void the warranty and are completely unsupported by Apple.

I am pretty sure but I think adding non-Apple RAM to my powerbook is a solution to a slow system problem, but not according to your definition since it is not supported by Apple and could likely void my warranty.

Before you go spouting off broad generalizations and putting down other's ideas think about the crap you are going to type. If you are going to attack others ideas just don't type something so false, general, and hypocritical while you do it.

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: FlashGordon ]

I Have Questions

11-05-2002, 12:33 AM

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:


So you are saying bumped iBooks and PBs tomorrow and then 2 months later completely new portables? Sorry, if we get updates this week we won't see another one until March or May.<hr></blockquote>

You are right about this one. That's why I'd rather see them wait until January to release a really nice upgrade instead of a lame PB bump this week and nothing new until the spring. Especially if this week brings a speed bump without an improved GPU. My personal scenario: lame PB bump this week along with a small iBook bump and price cuts means I will get an iBook now and sell it when the significant PB update takes place next spring. No PB upgrade this week means I'll wait to see what January brings... Here's hoping that Apple will surprise us all with that 1GHz PB with 64MB Radeon 9000 this week! :D Too bad I only hold out a 2% chance of that happening. :(

FlashGordon

11-05-2002, 01:08 AM

[quote]Originally posted by I Have Questions:


You are right about this one. That's why I'd rather see them wait until January to release a really nice upgrade instead of a lame PB bump this week and nothing new until the spring. Especially if this week brings a speed bump without an improved GPU. My personal scenario: lame PB bump this week along with a small iBook bump and price cuts means I will get an iBook now and sell it when the significant PB update takes place next spring. No PB upgrade this week means I'll wait to see what January brings... Here's hoping that Apple will surprise us all with that 1GHz PB with 64MB Radeon 9000 this week! :D Too bad I only hold out a 2% chance of that happening. :( <hr></blockquote>

I totally agree with you, I think I am going to get a $1100 dollar iBook, and sell it on ebay when the new Powerbooks come out in May or June. I will buy a ti though with a Radeon 9000, even if its just 32MB type.

apple.otaku

11-05-2002, 01:19 AM

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:


So you are saying bumped iBooks and PBs tomorrow and then 2 months later completely new portables? Sorry, if we get updates this week we won't see another one until March or May.<hr></blockquote>

You really can't rely on the past on this as Apple has been breaking the "rules" all year. They are trying to downplay the Expos and release new/improved hardware at more normal intervals. I can see a speedbumped PowerBook now and at the very least, the addition of the Superdrive option in January. If the Superdrives are in production now I can't see them holding onto them for six months. I just hope they can make it to 1 Ghz for this "Holiday" release but I'm not holding my breath.

JLL

11-05-2002, 02:50 AM

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
Anyways, no comments on the specs? I thought I'd here some bitching and moaning or debunks.<hr></blockquote>

New low end PB is faster than the current high end, but $900 cheaper - that's a good thing.

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: JLL ]

JLL

11-05-2002, 03:00 AM

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:


So you are saying bumped iBooks and PBs tomorrow and then 2 months later completely new portables? Sorry, if we get updates this week we won't see another one until March or May.<hr></blockquote>

October 16, 2001 Apple released updated PowerBooks (550 and 667 MHz)

December 17, 2001 Apple updated the PowerBooks again (More RAM and Combo drive)

I'm not expecting totally new PowerBooks for a long time, but even history won't stop Apple from updating the PowerBooks (SuperDrive perhaps) in a few months.

apple.otaku

11-05-2002, 03:57 AM

Did I just hear the nail being hit on the head?

der Kopf

11-05-2002, 04:47 AM

Instead of all that useless-for-many fad called bluetooth, why don't they incorporate the new industry standard USB 2 on their portables (is USB 2.0 part of the towers allready?).

As I have heard, USB 2.0 is cheaper to implement than firewire, and it is still faster than the current firewire offerings. So are we taken hostage until Steve's legions release the long-time rumored Gigawire. And even then, has anybody noticed the price difference even between an USB 2.0 HD and a firewire HD, it gets to be as much as 50 to 70 bucks, which is a lot already at the low prices HD's are going for these days. Moreover, I see implementations of USB 2.0 rather than firewire in digital cameras and the like.

Needless to say, I don't care what Steve thinks I should think, I want USB 2.0!

JLL

11-05-2002, 05:03 AM

[quote]Originally posted by der Kopf:
As I have heard, USB 2.0 is cheaper to implement than firewire, and it is still faster than the current firewire offerings. So are we taken hostage until Steve's legions release the long-time rumored Gigawire<hr></blockquote>

FireWire 2.0 is certainly not a rumor:

<a href="http://www.lacie.dk/news/news.cfm?id=D014264F-D6B7-11D6-981C0090278D3ED0" target="_blank">http://www.lacie.dk/news/news.cfm?id=D014264F-D6B7-11D6-981C0090278D3ED0</a>

joek

11-05-2002, 06:15 AM

[quote]Originally posted by JLL:


FireWire 2.0 is certainly not a rumor:

<a href="http://www.lacie.dk/news/news.cfm?id=D014264F-D6B7-11D6-981C0090278D3ED0" target="_blank">http://www.lacie.dk/news/news.cfm?id=D014264F-D6B7-11D6-981C0090278D3ED0</a><hr></blockquote>

And Gigawire is NOT known to be Firewire 2

fryke

11-05-2002, 06:55 AM

About 'history tells us Apple won't update PowerBooks after 2 months' and 'MWSF will be great'... RECENT history shows us that Apple is releasing iBooks/iMacs/PowerBooks/PowerMacs BETWEEN the big trade shows. When they're ready, not when everybody's listening. So if the Ti and the iBooks are updated today or tomorrow, expect a next revision (or better: new products) in about 4 to 7 months.

warpd

11-05-2002, 06:56 AM

I hate to say it, but I really think that Firewire/Apple are in trouble. Check the marketplace, every new PC motherboard is now coming with USB 2 built in. Also loads of notebooks have it. It is just so easy for Intel to leverage their weight with the board makers, as they need Intel's support "chip side". I am worried about the future of firewire. I think Apple is too, hence the "open sourcing" of the name a couple of months ago. Will it be enough? <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: warpd ]

robster

11-05-2002, 06:57 AM

[quote]Originally posted by jante99:
Dell sells a wide range of labtops aimed at different market segments. Apple tries to use the one size fits all method but it doesn't work.<hr></blockquote>

Really? Does it work any worse than when they had 70 different Mac models out there? When the difference between a Performa and a PowerMac was you could buy one for £300 less but the same spec??!!
I think Apple are right to offer a limited range, it takes the confusion out of buying a Mac...I actually think they should have one iBook, 13" and ditch the 2 model strat'

Oooh that came across a bit harsh...sorry not a flame-post, just feel strongly about it

JLL

11-05-2002, 07:37 AM

MacsRGood4U

11-05-2002, 07:42 AM

Matthew Rothenberg chimes in about possible upcoming laptops:

"As my friends in the retail channel tell me, Apple is traditionally loath to make a radical change to its product lineups this far into the holiday buying season. Modest speed increases and price reductions—and, at the high end, the addition of Bluetooth to the company's aggressive wireless arsenal—seem precisely the sorts of enhancements that will sweeten holiday sales for models that haven't seen a major upgrade in a year or more. (The last incremental improvements to the TiBook and iBook were in April and January, respectively.)"

Complete article here:
<a href="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,667575,00.asp" target="_blank">http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,667575,00.asp</a>

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: MacsRGood4U ]

engpjp

11-05-2002, 08:31 AM

[quote]Originally posted by jante99:
If Apple wants more sales they are going to have to offer more choices.<hr></blockquote>

Apple is not Dell. The Apple segment is much smaller than the PC market - if people don't find exactly the model they want, they can't go to another producer to find it. Introducing more models just means higher production costs, to pay for slicing the same cake into more wedges!

engpjp

Flounder

11-05-2002, 08:35 AM

Well, the Goddess in training at AtAT is predicting 1Ghz powerbook with superdrive

scottiB

11-05-2002, 08:59 AM

[quote](The last incremental improvements to the TiBook and iBook were in April and January, respectively.)<hr></blockquote>

As we all know, the iBook was last updated in May, 2002. I hate when such details are goofed. (Grrrrr....)

warpd

11-05-2002, 09:43 AM

[quote] from JLL: The FireWire / IEEE-1394 standard is not handled by Apple but by the 1394 Trade Association.

Furthermore, Dell recently began selling iPods, and they wouldn't sell iPods to their customers without supporting FireWire
<hr></blockquote>

Yes, but until recently Apple held all the rights to both the name "Firewire" and the nuclear looking icon thingie. They decided just a little while ago to open that up to 3rd parties.

Also, sure dell will support it, as most makers do. The point ti me is more that as USB2 grown and gets more and more exposure peripheral makers are more likely to use it. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

Matsu

11-05-2002, 09:53 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Flounder:
Well, the Goddess in training at AtAT is predicting 1Ghz powerbook with superdrive<hr></blockquote>

It better be a 1ghz w/superdrive and a $200 price drop, minimum. It's the only way we'll know if Apple is serious about taking its products into a more appropriate, year '03, pricing structure. If it comes with a superdrive but goes even higher in price, that's really no upgrade, just the intro of an even higher-end model. Good if you really need a mobile DVD-burning solution, but likely to be surpassed within months by other makers, and when Apple lets the model stagnate with neither upgrade nor price drop for 6-9 months, likely to be seriously undercut in price and out-performed in spec.

Upgrades are not enough, price drops must also be included.

warpd

11-05-2002, 11:02 AM

I hate to say this but you are acting as though at some point in the past Apple's pricing was completely reasonable! lol

When was this ever the case?? It has always been prohibitively expensive to be a mac user. Thats why it is so coooolll!! If anything, I think that they should revert to Powermac 7200's and double the price!!! Then we would really be cool!

:D

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: warpd ]

KidRed

11-05-2002, 11:04 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Flounder:
Well, the Goddess in training at AtAT is predicting 1Ghz powerbook with superdrive<hr></blockquote>

mm, they usually don't delve into rumors so this very interesting indeed. However, as memory serves, I'm still gonna stick to thinksecret's predictions until proven wrong.

xype

11-05-2002, 12:11 PM

As for FireWire dying - most newer PC motherboards (at least the quality ones) ship with FW. Not the cheap ones, but then many SoundBlasters I've seen lately came with FireWire as well.

As for KidRed's PowerBook prediction - what? Only Radeon 7500? Why no mobile 9000? Geez. :rolleyes:

rok

11-05-2002, 12:23 PM

[quote]Originally posted by warpd:
I hate to say it, but I really think that Firewire/Apple are in trouble. Check the marketplace, every new PC motherboard is now coming with USB 2 built in. Also loads of notebooks have it. It is just so easy for Intel to leverage their weight with the board makers, as they need Intel's support "chip side". I am worried about the future of firewire. I think Apple is too, hence the "open sourcing" of the name a couple of months ago. Will it be enough? <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: warpd ]<hr></blockquote>

how quickly everyone forgets.

set wayback machine to 1998... pc makers are including usb on all of their new machines, but still also including legacy poirts such as parallel for maximum backward compatibility. users who were already rationalizing buying cheaper pc's to meet their needs were also assessing their own needs and realized, hey, i don't need that usb port. so why should i care? and trying to get third party peripheral makers to support usb, when no one cared, was akin to herding chickens.

then what happens..?

apple introduces the computer you want to have, the imac. except, usb ONLY. period. want backward compatibility? you'll have to invest in backwards-compatible adapters. get on board, or be left behind. apple drove usb down 5% of the market's throat. and all the peripheral makers went... geez. 5% of the installed user base is still a HELL of a lot of profit, as long as i can be first-to-market. you then got ALL the third-party manufacturers making usb compatible devices (and, strangely enough, all in bondi blue enclosures.. i wonder why???). and THEN joe/jane consumer saw something really cool, wanted it, relaized it was only usb compatible, and THAT drove him/her to buy usb on his/her next computer. gosh, guess steve didn't just pull that "the computer is the hub to your digital lifestyle" completely out of his ass, did he?

put usb2 on all the computers you want. but until someone forces the issue so that third-party makers start making something more interesting than cd burners and hard drives (which are still immensely cheaper to buy as internals into a cheap pc tower rig), it will NOT take off. period.

don't even get me started on the damn floppy issue. ;)

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: rok ]

KidRed

11-05-2002, 12:31 PM

I'll take FW over USB any day. And i'l take FW2 over USB2 any day and i'll take FW3 over USB3 any day. Well, just stating it now so in 2 years when someone here complains that FW3 and Apple are dead I won't have to repeat myself.

warpd

11-05-2002, 12:38 PM

Rok: I don't disagree with a single thing that you just said! :)

Someone mentioned on the last page the most high end MB's do come with Firewire. That is my point! In about 3 months , EVERY PC motherboard will have USB 2! the reason that only high end boards have FW is that it is still costing them too much $$. In the bargain basement, crappy assed PC market, price is all that matters. It is the low end that you need to get to start a "standard". That is why Apple was so wildly succesfull at driving USB. Every mac had it. They introed it in their lowest end system at the time, and within a few months it was accross the line. If Apple and the ieee1394 assoc want to see what is clearly on every level a better technology than USB 2 take off, they have to get it out there!!! :)

[ 11-05-2002: Message edited by: warpd ]

Flow Flow

11-05-2002, 12:42 PM

Ok, I've finally gotten peeved enough about the Firewire/USB debate to actually register and post a comment. Look what you have driven me to.

Just like Serial and Parallel existed on older machines, each of these interconnects have their uses. Firewire and Firewire2 for high bandwidth, low latency usage. CD/DVD drives, high speed hard drives, video cameras, and anything else that wants to move lots of data. USB is designed for peripherals, your keyboard, mouse, and the like. Look at all the USB CD burners that make more coasters than CDs because USB can't keep the throughput up.

So yes, it would be nice to see USB2.0, but my inkling is that Apple will not do so until it has Firewire2 also. Of course, there are still few devices for each, but you're buying a computer for the next 2-3 years, not this week (note to the dude asking why anyone would need 64mb VRAM in a notebook). However, until Apple revamps the iBook/TiBook completely you won't see either of these.

And, now that I'm started, i'll just continue:
All you subnotebook people, my guess is that if Apple ever made one you would be unhappy with the specs. It will have a tiny hard drive, potentially no optical drive, and a tiny screen at 1024x768 resolution. Sure, this is a bump up from the 800x600 I'm running, but it still really isn't enough for OS X.

All you anti-bluetooth people, who knows. Apple's attempting to drive technology (again) that could make your life easier. Half of the problem with bluetooth is people haven't found the killer applications for it. iSync in itself probably isn't the killer app, but it's definitely a tremendous start. Just remember, bluetooth is to usb as 802.11 is to firewire. Each has it's uses.

Finally to all you G4 in an iBook people (the worst of the lot), well, I agree with you all. Not gonna see it tomorrow though. And really, give the 14" more resolution or put a nice widescreen 13" or sumptin. 1024x768 just isn't enough. I said I could deal with 800x600 when I bought my iBook, and I don't wanna say I can deal with 1024x768 either when I know I'll be unhappy in a year.

Bodhi

11-05-2002, 12:59 PM

**GUT FEELING**

We are NOT getting new Powerbooks tomorrow but a price cut on current models with new books coming in Jan.

Continue with your regularly scheduled programming...

;)

JBL

11-05-2002, 01:16 PM

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:


mm, they usually don't delve into rumors so this very interesting indeed. However, as memory serves, I'm still gonna stick to thinksecret's predictions until proven wrong.<hr></blockquote>

Think Secret sometimes gets things right, but AtAT is 100%.

Bodhi

11-05-2002, 01:31 PM

[quote]Originally posted by JBL:


Think Secret sometimes gets things right, but AtAT is 100%.<hr></blockquote>

Not last year. The two solid reporters of rumors (Naked Mole Rat & ATAT) were both wrong more than once last year. These days it's anyone's guess...

Matsu

11-05-2002, 01:44 PM

USB2.0 vs Firewire.

Firewire is the better technology by far for high bandwidth multimedia applications, drives, burners, etc etc... USB is a nice cheap universal connector for keyboards and mice, tablets and printers.

Damn Intel for even thinking of USB2, but they did, and it's here, and more periphs are comming to it than to Firewire cause it's cheap and it's gonna be on everything. MP3 players, still cams especially, and scanners.

Pisses me off, but that's the situation, and Apple needs to deal with it. Consumers want affordable peripherals and with this bastard USB2 out there, there's less incentive to make affordable firewire peripherals. With USB2, one port covers all of your low and high-speed customers, so a lot of manufacturers will skip firewire entirely, which sucks. Just look a still cameras, with battery an sensor technology the way it is they need a convenient recharging scheme and a way to move lots of multiMB/MP images from camera to computer, perfect for firewire, yet apart from some high-end units, they're all USB and moving to USB2... Even Sony's cameras, and they were the other early champion of firewire on the computer. Video, and HAVi, will assure that firewire stays around and grows, but USB2 is already having an effect on the availibility of cheap firewire periphs.

RodUK

11-05-2002, 01:55 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
**GUT FEELING**

We are NOT getting new Powerbooks tomorrow but a price cut on current models with new books coming in Jan.

<hr></blockquote>

Would Apple need to run down the existing stocks just to announce a price cut? <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

Ignore your gut, obey your head ;)

JBL

11-05-2002, 01:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:


Not last year. The two solid reporters of rumors (Naked Mole Rat & ATAT) were both wrong more than once last year. These days it's anyone's guess...<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> :confused: <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
Really? I don't remember AtAT being wrong about anything but the timing of the introductions at MWSF (and they corrected that long before the event).
But I am getting old and senile. Could one of you younger folk remind me what they were wrong about?

RodUK

11-05-2002, 02:06 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
USB2.0 vs Firewire.
<hr></blockquote>

I don't see why we can't have both.
We currently have USB 1.1 and Firewire.
In the future, why can't we have USB 2.0 and Gigawire ?

Stratosfear

11-05-2002, 02:15 PM

I have seen some tests and USB2 was really crappy. FW was so much more better. USB2 is like as crappy as original IBM PC specification.

Ensign Pulver

11-05-2002, 02:23 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
**GUT FEELING**

We are NOT getting new Powerbooks tomorrow but a price cut on current models with new books coming in Jan.

Continue with your regularly scheduled programming...

;) <hr></blockquote>

This is my increasing feeling too. The new Superdrive/Variable Bus Speed/Radeon 9000/Whatever Powerbooks won't be ready until MWSF, but Steve has to do something, so bang, a simple price cut.

The fact that the Power Couple display promo applies to the Powerbook line through Dec. 31st may also indicate the current models will stick around a bit longer.

Nebrie

11-05-2002, 02:39 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ensign Pulver:


This is my increasing feeling too. The new Superdrive/Variable Bus Speed/Radeon 9000/Whatever Powerbooks won't be ready until MWSF, but Steve has to do something, so bang, a simple price cut.

The fact that the Power Couple display promo applies to the Powerbook line through Dec. 31st may also indicate the current models will stick around a bit longer.<hr></blockquote>

I think the Display promo has more to do with the displays being overpriced than they do about no new powerbooks.

KidRed

11-05-2002, 02:41 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Bodhi:
**GUT FEELING**

We are NOT getting new Powerbooks tomorrow but a price cut on current models with new books coming in Jan.

Continue with your regularly scheduled programming...

;) <hr></blockquote>

Yea, ignore your gut. The channel is thinning, shipping pushed back, inventory almost non existant. They could sell the rest of the PBs without a price cut in less then 2 months. So why put out a price cut that would clear the inventory in well under 2 months? What will they do for the weeks before MWSF with no PBs in stock anywhere?

I think your gut is saying something else, like it's lunch time.

RazzFazz

11-05-2002, 03:56 PM

[quote]Originally posted by warpd:
I hate to say it, but I really think that Firewire/Apple are in trouble. Check the marketplace, every new PC motherboard is now coming with USB 2 built in. Also loads of notebooks have it.<hr></blockquote>

Most notebooks (by far) also sport FireWire (if only the 4-pin connector).

[quote]It is just so easy for Intel to leverage their weight with the board makers, as they need Intel's support "chip side". I am worried about the future of firewire.
<hr></blockquote>

As far as I remember, Intel was actually actively involved in the design of FireWire 2, and in that case I don't think we'd have to worry about its future.

Bye,
RazzFazz

RazzFazz

11-05-2002, 03:59 PM

[quote]Originally posted by der Kopf:
Instead of all that useless-for-many fad called bluetooth, why don't they incorporate the new industry standard USB 2 on their portables (is USB 2.0 part of the towers allready?).
<hr></blockquote>

Nope, it's not on the Mac towers yet. But unlike the portables, you just can add a PCI card for those.

[quote]As I have heard, USB 2.0 is cheaper to implement than firewire, and it is still faster than the current firewire offerings.<hr></blockquote>

It's only faster on paper. In real world applications, USB2 is almost always slower than FireWire.

[quote]Moreover, I see implementations of USB 2.0 rather than firewire in digital cameras and the like.<hr></blockquote>

That's only for still cams, though. DV is intinamtely linked to FireWire, and I don't think this is going to change any time soon.

[quote]Needless to say, I don't care what Steve thinks I should think, I want USB 2.0!<hr></blockquote>

I do agree USB2 should be added ASAP.

Bye,
RazzFazz

engpjp

11-05-2002, 04:09 PM

Bluetooth as standard, and RendezVous easy connectivity has less to do with connecting to/through and/or syncing with mobile phones than with Switch'n'Use keyboards, mice, printers, scanners, speakers, microphones, pens....

Add to that, C2 connectivity to near-future Home Entertainment units of any kind...

Jobs is as excited about Bluetooth these days, as Gates is about TabletPCs.

engpjp

Paul

11-05-2002, 04:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by JBL:


<img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> :confused: <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
Really? I don't remember AtAT being wrong about anything but the timing of the introductions at MWSF (and they corrected that long before the event).
But I am getting old and senile. Could one of you younger folk remind me what they were wrong about?<hr></blockquote>

they predicted superdrive powerbooks for the last revision...

they were also wrong about something else, but i dont remember either...

rok

11-05-2002, 08:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by RodUK:


I don't see why we can't have both.
We currently have USB 1.1 and Firewire.
In the future, why can't we have USB 2.0 and Gigawire ?<hr></blockquote>

oh, for pete's sake, how many times do i have to post this? from the us patent and trademark office, afetr searching for "gigawire" under trademarks reveals the following information, as supplied by its originator, apple computer (and i quote):

"...Telecommunication services, namely, local and long distance transmission of voice, data, and graphics by means of computer, telephone, telegraphic, cable, and satellite transmission; telecommunication services, namely telecommunications gateway services, ISDN services; cellular telephone communication services; electronic transmission of data and documents via computer terminals, communication by telephone, facsimile transmission; electronic mail (E-MAIL) services; electronic transmission of messages, data and images; electronic communication between computer peripherals and devices; providing electronic information about in the field of telecommunications via the Internet..."

and ALSO

"...electrical and electronic equipment comprising adapter cards, cables, semiconductors and parts therefor; computer hardware; computers; computer firmware for the transmission of digital data; computer peripheral devices comprising adapter cards, cables, semiconductors, scanners, smart monitors, modems, printers, disk drives, namely fixed, floppy, cartridge and tape drives, CD-ROM drives, CD-Recordable (CD-R) drives, CD-Rewritable (CD-RW) drives; DVD-ROM (Read only DVD) drives, and Rewritable DVD (DVD-RAM) drives; handheld computers; telephones, mobile telephones, telecommunications equipment and devices comprising computer hardware, telephones, personal digital assistant devices, and mobile and handheld digital devices; wireless information devices comprising computer hardware, telephones, personal digital assistant devices, and mobile and handheld digital devices; computer software programs for the transmission of digital data; computer operating programs, computer utility programs; computer utility programs for use with computers, telecommunications equipment and devices and computer peripheral devices."

so there you have it... gigawire is apple's super-duper, end-all and be-all, everything-goes-through-one-friggin'-cord standard (basically, anything that can't be transmitted through thin air, like airport or bluetooth).

KidRed

11-05-2002, 09:08 PM

[quote]Originally posted by rok:


oh, for pete's sake, how many times do i have to post this? from the us patent and trademark office, afetr searching for "gigawire" under trademarks reveals the following information, as supplied by its originator, apple computer (and i quote):

"...Telecommunication services, namely, local and long distance transmission of voice, data, and graphics by means of computer, telephone, telegraphic, cable, and satellite transmission; telecommunication services, namely telecommunications gateway services, ISDN services; cellular telephone communication services; electronic transmission of data and documents via computer terminals, communication by telephone, facsimile transmission; electronic mail (E-MAIL) services; electronic transmission of messages, data and images; electronic communication between computer peripherals and devices; providing electronic information about in the field of telecommunications via the Internet..."

and ALSO

"...electrical and electronic equipment comprising adapter cards, cables, semiconductors and parts therefor; computer hardware; computers; computer firmware for the transmission of digital data; computer peripheral devices comprising adapter cards, cables, semiconductors, scanners, smart monitors, modems, printers, disk drives, namely fixed, floppy, cartridge and tape drives, CD-ROM drives, CD-Recordable (CD-R) drives, CD-Rewritable (CD-RW) drives; DVD-ROM (Read only DVD) drives, and Rewritable DVD (DVD-RAM) drives; handheld computers; telephones, mobile telephones, telecommunications equipment and devices comprising computer hardware, telephones, personal digital assistant devices, and mobile and handheld digital devices; wireless information devices comprising computer hardware, telephones, personal digital assistant devices, and mobile and handheld digital devices; computer software programs for the transmission of digital data; computer operating programs, computer utility programs; computer utility programs for use with computers, telecommunications equipment and devices and computer peripheral devices."

so there you have it... gigawire is apple's super-duper, end-all and be-all, everything-goes-through-one-friggin'-cord standard (basically, anything that can't be transmitted through thin air, like airport or bluetooth).<hr></blockquote>

So it's FW2 right?
:p

O and A

11-05-2002, 10:05 PM

Firewire is faster than USB 2.0. The speed limitations are theoretical and never actuallly reached benchmarks have showed this

Thinksecret is usually right on with their info. Not to mention that powerpage is also getting very similar info which just adds more creedence. i guess we'l find out in about 12 hours.

KidRed

11-05-2002, 10:57 PM

Actually powerpage is contradicting thinksecret by saying no PBs until MWSF. I'll stick with thinksecret, at least thru tomorrow :)

Steve

11-05-2002, 11:48 PM

Only about six hours away. I can't count on one hand the number of people I know that're just waiting for the $999 iBook to hit the site, so they can plunk down their cold, hard plastic and make their first foray into the world of Mac OS X. :)

Bodhi

11-06-2002, 12:38 AM

No New Powerbook.

FlashGordon

11-06-2002, 12:43 AM

Yes. New Powerbook.

curiousuburb

11-06-2002, 01:29 AM

bumped and less costly ibooks today
less costly powerbooks today,
new (enclosure and features) powerbook at MWSF

apple.otaku

11-06-2002, 02:14 AM

....

[ 11-06-2002: Message edited by: apple.otaku ]

apple.otaku

11-06-2002, 02:18 AM

Upgraded iBooks/Lower Prices Today
Upgraded PowerBooks/Lower Prices Today

Upgraded PowerBooks w/ Superdrive in January

iBook G4 w/ new enclosure in July
PowerBook G5 w/ new enclosure in September

:p

Addison

11-06-2002, 02:21 AM

I'll have a bet thet the next generation of DV video cameras have USB2 and NO Firewire connection :(

I expect Sony to start this trend.

apple.otaku

11-06-2002, 02:43 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Addison:
I'll have a bet thet the next generation of DV video cameras have USB2 and NO Firewire connection :(

I expect Sony to start this trend.<hr></blockquote>

I think Sony's plans are to use USB2 for digital cameras and Firewire2 for DV. Regardless, Firewire1 is still better than USB2 for such tasks. I just wish Apple would start pushing Firewire2. Hard. If not, what you say will eventually come true. It's important that Apple support both side by side though as USB2 is not going to go away.

[ 11-06-2002: Message edited by: apple.otaku ]

Producer

11-06-2002, 02:46 AM

What I don't understand is I believe Apple stated that they expected slightly increased revenue for this quarter...how can they do this while lowering the prices of everything? I can see how the iPod might be the saviour of the quarter but I am not sure they should be counting on this...

Eugene

11-06-2002, 03:19 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Addison:
I'll have a bet thet the next generation of DV video cameras have USB2 and NO Firewire connection :(

I expect Sony to start this trend.<hr></blockquote>

I don't think so. Sony has invested a lot in FireWire, while USB 2 doesn't offer significant advantages. Unnecessary change in big business is a big no-no. Sony would have to rewrite software and redesign hardware for basically no reasonable gains. With IEEE 1394b and bandwidth hungry innovations approaching , forward thinking Sony should be looking toward that instead.

monsterjaeger

11-06-2002, 06:34 AM

SONY and Apple (or vice versa) have invented FireWire (ka IEEE1394) together. So I guess it's extremely unlikely that SONY will include USB2 into DV-Cams. Also consider that USB2 has significant disadvantages compared to FW(1|2). Real world throughput is a lot better for FireWire. FW also has better PowerSupply as well as direct device transfers, etc. FW simply is the superior technology.
I personally expect future camcorders to record to HD instead of tape, so the increased throughput that FW2 will deliver can be of much benefit in terms of transfer time.