Where is the Tapplet PC?

[The Swan]

Clearly you've all seen the buzz about the Tablet PC's released today. My question, is, oh why has Apple not come out with something similar (and better). Clearly Inkwell fits here. It is my personal opinion that the Tablet PC will be huge. For one thing, I think it will be very popular with those who are still afraid of computers. It looks like and works much like a pad of paper as far as input is concerned. For people afraid of computers, familiarity is important. I think this is evidenced by the popularity of Apple's interface, which provided people with many familiar things when it was first released (desktop, trash, folders NOT directories). The TabletPC is very unobtrusive, another reason why I am surprised Apple is without one. It can lay flat on the desk, be slid in a brief case. Its very light, so you can take it anywhere. If Apple makes ones, it needs to be water resistant. This is key, I want to be able to drop this sucker in the bath tub, and if retrieved quickly have it still working. Ports with rubber protectors perhaps?

So Apple, if you're listening, here is what your Tablet needs.

1) Strong, make it Titanium too, :-)
2) Water proof.
3) Wireless networking (perhaps only, would be a classic, bold, Apple move)
4) Firewire port chargeable, so if I have to, I can use a (T)iBook to recharge it.
5) Slow as you want. All this baby needs is to run an office suite and browse the web, I'm not playing Quake on this.

This post is somewhat disorganized, but I'm sure my idea will be clarified as people flame various parts of it.

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: The Swan ]</p>

[Amorph]

MS' current effort weighs more than a TiBook, squandering the one theoretical advantage a tablet has: The fact that it can be held in one hand, and written upon with another.

Gates is trying to contrast it with the Newton(!), and he's got so little to go on that he's focusing on the dubious HWR of the Newton 100, rather than the polish of the latter-day Newts, and punting the fact that his stuff is only barely comparable on hardware many times more powerful. To make things worse, the Newt's OS was specialized to the form; the MS tablet's isn't.

Basically, the best thing Apple could do is watch this thing flounder, wait for technology to serve up the means to build a usable tablet, and then release something. A brittle, expensive six pound monster is nothing to get worked up over. Gates might be infatuated with it, but he's not Steve: He might be a ruthlessly efficient tactician, but he's got no eye for product design, either on an aesthetic or a functional level.

I expect this to join Microsoft Bob in the junkpile of PC history, frankly.

[fridgemagnet]

I kind of see Microsoft's tablet as the kind of quirky device you'd see appearing in a B&W 1950s newsreel about how things will be in the future, you know the kind of thing where you'd have some guy in a hat, smoking a pipe and talking on a huge cell phone with an enormous arial!!?

The damn thing just isn't worthwhile yet, while we all want something to carry around like they have on Star Trek at present it seems a bit like trying to build a Nintendo GameBoy with the technology available in the 1970s.

Apple can't afford to be speculative and waste money with their product development.

[FlashGordon]

Every review I have read says that the tablet PCs are totally not ready for consumers. The batteries last 2 hours max in tests, the handwriting recognition is horrible and cannot be sent to a non tabletPC, and they are heavy and bulky. In short MS blew it and these things suck.

There are two ways to look at this:
1) Its a good thing Apple stayed away because they would have lost their ass on a technology no one will use

or

2) They could have done it right using Powerbook battery tech, inkwell, and Apple design, and totally stolen Microsofts thunder while running away with a big slice of the market just by releasing a machine that actually worked.

Personally I think it was a good idea to stay away...for now.

[G4Dude]

M$ Tablet PC sucks. It reminds me of that huge clip board with buttons that Captain Kirk used to write on.

[Kecksy]

If Apple would likely want to use an OLED or Digital Paper in a tablet. Since these technologies are new and expensive, I don't think the time is right.

[podperson]

Well first of all let me say that I'd be happy if Apple just released a Newton the size of an iPaq (which, given the iPaq has the same processor as a Newton and a color display should be doable).

The thing I loved about my Newton MP2000 was I could take notes in meetings and then search through my records of hundreds of meetings in a fraction of a second. Palm and PocketPC devices are useless for taking notes or sketching ideas.

I'd say Apple could release an iBook form-factor with a screen that folds back on itself and a 10-12 inch touchscreen for $200-300 more than an iBook. I'd buy one. They could leave the keyboard off if they wanted since a USB port would satisfy people needing a keyboard.

I suspect a LOT of folks would buy such a beast as an alternative to buying a tablet with embedded display since the cost would not be much different and a tablet you can sketch on when you're on vacation is very nice. I'm tempted to buy a Tablet PC just for this purpose.

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: podperson ]</p>

[James B]

Hasn't Apple publically said that they'll 'wait and see' in regards to the Tablet PC.

I don't think the market is ready for the tablet pc. It just seems like a PDA and Laptop blended together. I don't mind the laptops/tablet combo, but think that it'll be a few years away till the market (and the technology) is really ready for tablets.

[Amorph]

[quote]Originally posted by podperson:
<strong>The thing I loved about my Newton MP2000 was I could take notes in meetings and then search through my records of hundreds of meetings in a fraction of a second. Palm and PocketPC devices are useless for taking notes or sketching ideas.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's what kills me about Bill Gates attacking the Newton in his Tablet rollout: The Newton 2Ks completely kick his Tablet's ass in overall usability, and they're how old?

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[serrano]

To summarize,

Tablet PC's are teh suck, and the current market is teh blow.

[vvedge]

just look at the top 10 reasons to buy a tablet pc.. <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/tabletpc/evaluation/toptenbenefits.asp" target="_blank">http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/tabletpc/evaluation/toptenbenefits.asp</a>

there are maybe 2.5 reasons that a normal consumer or semi-intelligent person would buy one....

I mean "Provide a Global Business Solution"... god, Joe Sixpack really wants a global business solution...

The tablet PC will fail... Apple will only be commiting suicide investing in that stupid Microsoft led lemmming march...

[LvnAloha]

I don't understand the buzz the Tablet PC is getting. I have been using pen computers since 1995, running Windows 3.1 on a 486/25. The have come a long way when you look at Fujitsu's Stylistic line. What really confuses me is that anyone can get a Fujitsu ST3500 and run Windows without being some specialized version of the OS. Why do we need to new tablets that run XP tablet edition. Tablet PC have been popular for a few years now with mobile workforces and I don't see why this would change to include the masses. Another problem I see is that handheld computers take some abuse. This is acceptable to most businesses, cost of doing business, but Joe six pack is going to be pissed when he gets up to get another been and his tablet PC slides off his lap and smashes to the ground.

For the work I did (GIS mapping) they are a wonderful tool, but in all of the time I worked with them, I never wanted to have one as my home computer.

[klinux]

Despite what MS says, this is intended for niche audience i.e. vertical industries, hospitals, etc. and early adopters. There are really no convincing reasons for regular consumers to use. While it's handling of ink as a searchable, indexed data type is interesting (I has a chance to test a tablet two months ago) but it will not be until 2nd generation, if it even gets there, before it is more commonly accepted.

[FormerLurker]

Yep, notebook-sized tablets are not exactly new. All that is really new is some MS jabber-jawin about "a superset of Windows XP" (once again, lost on Joe Sixpack). All that MS has is hype, and they are more stupid than they are arrogant to think that their hype alone will sell this technology at this price point in the current tech economy.

This may end up being the come-uppance for MS, that they should have gotten from the anti-trust case. It's the beginning of their downhill slide....

[Matsu]

Hello?

Am I in the right place?

People are now using all the same arguments I repeatedly made against an Apple based tablet i****, Kormac bullshiat pad thing super slate whatever.

I guess it's going to take M$ to proove to some people why big tablets/wirelss monitors aren't really much good to anyone, not using current tech.

The problem for tablets will always be the balance of size. Too small and you can't read or imput with great comfort/efficiency. Too big and you can't hold it up and imput or read with great efficiency. See a problem?

While there is an ideal balance of size and weight, such a device wouldn't be easily pocketable (other than a lab coat) nor would it have a big portrait display.

You could actually build a decent tablet right now using PDA technology and a thin case, but with, oh, a 4X bigger screen than most PDA's. Something about A5 (6x8) size. Easy to read and write on while standing. Mebbe B5 for a really large version (about 7x10) maxx.

You could take a PalmOS and tile their screen to fit four 480x320 areas (Sony's virtual graffiti size screen) for 960x640. Add a high quality mic and digitizer, make it 1/2" thin, USB and firewire (for charging and fast or slow data transfer depending on host computer) wireless rendesvous and you're set. Along with much better software for archiving and reading notes. Mebbe a 5GB 1.8" HD. Or solid state memory plus a PC-card to let you plug in your own HD. eBook and PDF readers, Office compliant word, presentation, spreadsheet/database components...

Not pocketable, but small enough to slip into a binder or briefcase or bag. At the ready for serious work, meetings, interviews, classroom, bedside data entry/review, in the field, in the lab, etc etc...

[Blackcat]

All the reasons we're giving here why the MS Tablet will fail are based on MS not knowing about good design and marketing. It is also important to note that x86 based hardware isn't that suitable either.

Apple on the other hand has industry leading award winning design, very low power components and the right software.

If you look at this weeks iBook release for $999, they could drop it to 10", lose the keyboard and 1 USB, give it a touch screen and voila! Apple iPad for $999ish.

No hassle, no special edition OS, just a tablet done right. Apple could sell more of these than Gartner thinks the rest of the industry put together will (425,000).

[Fran441]

[quote]That's what kills me about Bill Gates attacking the Newton in his Tablet rollout: The Newton 2Ks completely kick his Tablet's ass in overall usability, and they're how old?<hr></blockquote>

Amorph, you're stealing my material! :p

I am glad that I'm not the only one to realize this, though. ;)

Edit: I had to use Acer's Travelmate 100 when it was still in beta testing a few months ago. It was basically a laptop but the screen could twist around and fall back first onto the keyboard and clip on. It took me about a week to find the pen.

But at least when you were done realizing you looked like a fool switching the thing to a tablet, you could switch it back to a laptop. Maybe it was just the prototype versions, but the OS was as buggy as ever, and everytime I switched from laptop to tablet or vice versa, I felt that I was going to break the screen. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: Fran441 ]</p>

[MacsRGood4U]

There really isn't a Microsoft Tablet. They designed the software and basic component structure. The Tablets are being made by various companies. Hell, even Dell is going to "wait and see". It's a no brainer. It will not sell until battery life is increased and weight is reduced (as well as cost). Even then, the whole idea of a computer is to eliminate the need to write by hand for most people. A lot of reviews I've read are not so enthusiastic about its future. MS spent years and lots of money and man (wowan) hours working on this thing and all it seems to be is a color version of Newton (and not as fat free).

[ast3r3x]

ok, basically what i've got from this discussion is that:

1)Apple makes better products then MS

2)Apple is years ahead of MS

3)come on...who didn't already know this ;)

[JLL]

[quote]Originally posted by MacsRGood4U:
<strong>Hell, even Dell is going to "wait and see".</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dell are always playing the "wait and see" game - they are never first with anything.

They are only selling products that are profitable, but if everyone did that nothing new would ever come out.

[fridgemagnet]

[quote]Originally posted by Blackcat:
<strong>All the reasons we're giving here why the MS Tablet will fail are based on MS not knowing about good design and marketing. It is also important to note that x86 based hardware isn't that suitable either.

Apple on the other hand has industry leading award winning design, very low power components and the right software.

If you look at this weeks iBook release for $999, they could drop it to 10", lose the keyboard and 1 USB, give it a touch screen and voila! Apple iPad for $999ish.

No hassle, no special edition OS, just a tablet done right. Apple could sell more of these than Gartner thinks the rest of the industry put together will (425,000).</strong><hr></blockquote>

But I think the point is that Apple don't really have the enterprise customers that MS is aiming for with these things.

There is no doubt in my mind that Apple could make a much better tablet there just isn't enough of a market for one.

I just can't imagine toting one of these things around anyway, it would be like bringing an encyclopedia with you to read on the bus.

[trailmaster308]

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>MS' current effort weighs more than a TiBook, squandering the one theoretical advantage a tablet has: The fact that it can be held in one hand, and written upon with another.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Does M$ have a tablet that is all to their own or are you talking about the tablets made by different brands/companies? Because compaq's weighs in at 3 lbs. I still think these guys will fail but not because of weight.

<a href="http://www.compaq.com/products/tabletpc/" target="_blank">Compaq Tablet</a>

[Matsu]

[quote]Originally posted by Blackcat:
<strong>All the reasons we're giving here why the MS Tablet will fail are based on MS not knowing about good design and marketing. It is also important to note that x86 based hardware isn't that suitable either.

Apple on the other hand has industry leading award winning design, very low power components and the right software.

If you look at this weeks iBook release for $999, they could drop it to 10", lose the keyboard and 1 USB, give it a touch screen and voila! Apple iPad for $999ish.

No hassle, no special edition OS, just a tablet done right. Apple could sell more of these than Gartner thinks the rest of the industry put together will (425,000).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Part of good design is knowing what will work, and though what you describe is close, it ain't there yet. Lose keyboard and hinge, drop to 10" screen, but you still need the internals, and it'll still weigh in at mebbe a pound less than the iBook. Now you're gonna want it for stand up and scribble duty. Gotta ruggedize it further and put back some of the weight you saved with the screen hinge. Uh uh, too heavy.

The other way to go about it is the big screen PDA, or alternatively you can go for a small screen iBook, lidless and seriously cut down but otherwise capable of the full OS, with special extensions. But you way doesn't solve the problem of it being to big to use standing, to keyless to type sitting, and still big and fragile.

When the technology is there to do it right at the right price, then we'll see one, mebbe in converta-SUBnotebook size, B5 at the absolutely largest form factor such a device and it's users could manage, even if they don't knw any better right now, you'll see...

[Rhumgod]

[quote]Originally posted by fridgemagnet:
<strong>it would be like bringing an encyclopedia with you to read on the bus.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Very good analogy. I would like to use one, pretty much a Newton, but with modern day graphics and functionality. I think Apple could do it and has probably gone through R&D many, many times on such devices. I think it would have to be a smidge bigger than the Newton 2x00 size, but with color obviously and PDA style functions. I laptop replacement is just not a good idea. That's why we have iBooks and TiBooks. This would be nice for the frequent traveler who does a lot of note taking or presenting (ie; external video so it can be mated with a projector for sketches during demos etc).

[MacsRGood4U]

MS doers not make computers, tablet or otherwise.

[Matsu]

The newton was actually pretty close to ideal in footprint, but not screen size or girth.

Do yourself this little visualization example.

Pick up a DVD-case. Note it's footprint and thickness. That is just about the ideal size for a tablet device. Also about the size of a trade paperback or A5 paper (a little smaller really). Easy to read an write anywhere, comfortably, standing or sitting. Now open it up. See what the two halves look like, feel like, just like a book open part way and snugged up to your face as you read.

Take your slate, imagine that the flip over cover is not just a protective cover, but a flip over hard backed pad, with real paper, yes, paper. In the 'spine' sits a 'pen' that has either ink, pencil, or plastic tip to it. You can open it part way and sribble on the paper, or write and the note go straight to the slate, or you can fold the paper right around, select the plastic tip in your pen, and work/edit directly on the screen, up to you whether you prefer the feel of paper or not, whether you need a paper copy right now. Bluetooth in the pen, and an active digitizer on the screen, take care of all your transcription needs. Athernatively, you can scrap the paper pad and plug in a small keyboard for faster seated entry. All stays in the nice leather bound cover. Doesn't shout, "Hey, look at me, I'm using expensive technology." It just quitely goes about it's business as a true electronic notepad/tablet.

[heinzel]

Contrary to what most people say on the boards, I don't think the only target audience for a TabletPC lies in the business world: I work in a molecular biology lab and everybody is still using pen and paper to protocol their experiments. I would *LOVE* to have a (ruggedized) Pen-based thingy to hack my planned experiments into and add the results. Connected wirelessly to a backend server that would do the data storage/safety, I think it would be an extremely useful device, given it had an additional camera to take pictures of the results and the other lab equipment being outfitted with IR or bluetooth to transmit the data. The indexing of the text would come very handy for finding old data that you otherwise have to search for by hand in several protocol books and you would *never* have to type rows and rows of data into excel from a computer printout originating form some other machine. If the software would work nicely compositing documents from different files, you could easily put a sort of diary together that would still keep the original data in its own files, ready to be sent to somebody or to be incorporated into something else - although you probably would need some sort of database-based storage for that (another good reason to implement that in a file system plugin for MacOS X...) . Unfortunately, I don't think that MS knows what it wants with the TabletPC nor has the connectivity in its mind or the will to make everyone programming for that thing and incorporate the hooks necessary to make the applications talk to each other. I guess that's what they think .net is supposed to do. Nonetheless I don't think .net will automatically provide all the data exchange functionality without programmers thinking about it ahead of time. As Apple seems to be more stringent in its grip on 3rd party programmers and is more geared towards having their computers communicate with whatever's out there, maybe they would be able to actually bring the (read: my personal one, which would make sense to me) TabletPC concept to fruition. On the other hand, they definitely don't want to come up with another product that's way ahead of its time like the Newton - so, waiting a little and taking a more Dellish (or Multiplan?) or iPodish approach will probably be better for Apple - and us?
So what's the point? I hope the TabletPC will fail mildly in the market place so that Apple can still pick the concept up at a later point without getting burnt by the analysts and make it a success, similar to the iPod!

[rsgunther]

Garbage - IMHO tablet PC's are complete garbage. At least the current releases are. I can see that laptops with writable screens for taking notes will be the future, but these limited function machines are just simply not practical for a home user or a business user. It is too big to lug around to meetings, too limited to use in replacement of a standard laptop. The only ones that may have success in the home market are the units that are a laptop with a tablet screen. Just my 2 cents.

[Rhumgod]

[quote]Originally posted by heinzel:
<strong>Contrary to what most people say on the boards, I don't think the only target audience for a TabletPC lies in the business world</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with you...but you are in the business world - the lab is just your 'office'. We use Compaq iPaqs in our hospital Pharmacy, ER and Lab for checking meds, conflicts, lab results, and tracking and monitoring patient flow via a web-based Whiteboard application that we wrote. It works quite nice, but the iPaq screen is very tiny for the premium price you pay for them. A tablet would be a nicer way to get this work done, I believe.

[Bigc]

the only tablet I want is built into my fridge so I can write notes on what to get and have it 802 elevened to my mac. I figure about $99.99 ought to cover a 8"x10"

[Matsu]

Rhum, gunther, heinz...

I believe I have described the perfect device for you're needs. Thank-you very much.

[Rhumgod]

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>I believe I have described the perfect device for you're needs. Thank-you very much.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Before you go off self-praising....

I don't mind your description, but would like a big bigger screen than a paperback. As far as the real paper goes, nope, definately not. I would like something that has a slate I can write directly on, but not feel like plastic on plastic, like signing your names on one of those credit card terminals at the local dept store. I get a picture of a child's doodle pad with the roll of paper you simply tear off when scribbled on enough. No, definately not.

I definately like the opening-like-a-book concept. I used to have a Psion 7, and it was fine for most all things. The keyboard was a joke and should've had a slate for writing on instead. I will do up a Photoshop today, and post of a concept.

[Blackcat]

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>

Part of good design is knowing what will work, and though what you describe is close, it ain't there yet. Lose keyboard and hinge, drop to 10" screen, but you still need the internals, and it'll still weigh in at mebbe a pound less than the iBook. Now you're gonna want it for stand up and scribble duty. Gotta ruggedize it further and put back some of the weight you saved with the screen hinge. Uh uh, too heavy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think part of the way to lighten/ruggedise it is in size. Maybe use 1.8" iPod drives, built-in polymer batteries, built-in RAM, no CD, 9" screen. Charge it by firewire too, which cuts down on sockets.

I don't think your tablet PDA idea is it. For the cost (it would still be $499) people want more - which is why PDAs don't sell too well.

No, for your $999 (or less!) you want a full Mac, capable of of running all Mac software. That way you get the geek market, which generates software. Students can run Office. Kids can run games. Etc.

Aim it at consumers, business can come second.

[Matsu]

No-no.

tablet to one side, paper to the other, you can write on either as the need takes you. The stylus would be 'smart' and so would the digitizer on the slate. But since 'feel' can be an issue, I think an 'active' pen could be a good idea.

My inclination is also to a full computer, but I don't think the tech is there to do it an a rugged and cost effective way, yet. Another year or two and who knows, though a PDA could probably do it now.

1.8" drives, 256-512MB and a small screen with minimal ports, yes, that could work. But it'd be very slow given current PPC's. Mebbe with low power .09u versions?

If you sell it as a complete computer, people will want to use it that way, and will inevitably be disappointed when they do. Gaming and iApps will be SLOWWW, and the OS will look seriously cramped. Both could be solved with some tweaking of the OS, mebbe. 999 won't get you a computer replacement, close isn't good enough. Mebbe in 3-5 years...

[heinzel]

[quote]Originally posted by Rhumgod:
<strong>

I agree with you...but you are in the business world - the lab is just your 'office'. </strong><hr></blockquote>

You are right, I guess I haven't filed my hobby as business, although it is... .

The fridge screen Bigc wants is something that I would like, too; it would perfectly replace the paper clutter on our lab fridge which doubles as a message board - and the digital version would also always be up-to-date, in contrast to our vertical paper trash heap. This is where iCal would fit nicely, too (apart from the TiVo-like hard disk VCR that interfaces with your DVD-R-equipped Mac which has the clickable TV program courtesy of iCal and is able to synch it with your Apple or Palm PDA that doubles as a remote control for the HD-VCR...), to keep the message board in sync with other message boards on other fridges via 802.11 or a server mac in the building or somewhere else in the internet... .

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: heinzel ]</p>

[hir]

Apple will not release a tablet, PDA, or anything else sub iBook size until they perfect their voice recognition logistics. They have the voice to text and command down, but not the logistics of menu and file navigation. Until they find an intuitive and easy way to do that, they'll sit out this product.

Imagine a PDA/phone device with extensive and practical use of voice recognition. We all have phones that can dial by saying a name, but what if we could just say "Find" -- "Movie" -- "8-Mile" -- "in 90210" or how about "Email" -- "Send" -- "to matsu@appleinsder.com" -- "subject new powerbooks" -- "body [blah blah]" -- "end email" -- "send".

Codename? Boxing Helena.

[Blackcat]

[quote]Originally posted by hir:
<strong>Apple will not release a tablet, PDA, or anything else sub iBook size until they perfect their voice recognition logistics. They have the voice to text and command down, but not the logistics of menu and file navigation. Until they find an intuitive and easy way to do that, they'll sit out this product.

Imagine a PDA/phone device with extensive and practical use of voice recognition. We all have phones that can dial by saying a name, but what if we could just say "Find" -- "Movie" -- "8-Mile" -- "in 90210" or how about "Email" -- "Send" -- "to matsu@appleinsder.com" -- "subject new powerbooks" -- "body [blah blah]" -- "end email" -- "send".

Codename? Boxing Helena.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Er, you've been able to do that for well over 10 years now. Look at Dragon NaturallySpeaking or IBM ViaVoice. It works extremely well but the Mac equivalents are utter rubbish.

I ran Dragon Dictate on a 16Mhz 386 when they were new and it was extremely good. Dragon PowerSecretary was as good on the Mac under 8.0 but developed stopped and it became VoicePowerPro and was very poor.

Apple could easily license the Philips speach engine. However, most people hate dictating unless they are alone, it's too public.

[MrBillData]

Why has most of the Apple community completely lost thier minds?

Apple is a niche computer company.
I mean, duh they come out with the Newton didn't they. What do you think the iPod market is, well besides a bunch of Apple groupies that wanted Apple to make an MP3 player. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

I have used the Pace blade for 5 months. It certainly has problems, but at least some people are trying to be innovative. I have never entered text on mine with the pen. I use mine while I relax at night to read through Email, memos or work documents. It takes about a minute to sync with it when I get home. I find it especially handy when someone calls, I can quickly search though notes, the Emails, etc.

The biggest stupidity I read here is that people think Tablet means you have to write everything by hand. Tablets are not big Newtons. Alot of tablets, especially the ones M$ is promoting, have keyboards.

Though I should state that the comment that Bill Gates made about the Newton on the Charlie Rose show last night was certainly an insult to Apple.

Whats the big deal if the iBook display flipped around to be used in a closed form? There is very little weight added for the double hinging and the touch sensitive face is no big deal either. Of course the Powerbook couldn't do this because it has such a terrible heat problem already. I do think that it is possible for the iBook and should be done as part of the next Bump.

[Nordstrodamus]

There is no doubt that the tablet concept has appeal on two fronts -

1. Pen input is great for quick notes, art, and applications where you have to stand or can't make a lot of noise typing (classroom).

2. The subnotebook appeal (especially in the convertable form factor where the screen detaches from the base that has the keyboard and optical drive).

In short, I don't know anyone who doesn't want these features, they just attack the price difference and usability (battery life, weight, etc). If Microsoft puts enough support behind this it will become an added feature everyone expects even if it isn't initially use alot and then the tech will improve later.

I don't want to be in a situation where a PC user says, "You mean you can't even pen input on a mac?" Besides, I once owned a Newton 2000 and I know for damn sure that Apple could do it better than M$.

[Nebrie]

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>

That's what kills me about Bill Gates attacking the Newton in his Tablet rollout: The Newton 2Ks completely kick his Tablet's ass in overall usability, and they're how old?

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Didn't they compare the specs of the Tablet PC to the Newton 130? The ZDnet article sure did. Pretty sad when they have to go that far back.

Anyways, PRICE is the main barrier and why I think tablet PCs will fail. I just got a catalog this week, and in it was the HP tablet PC. At a whopping $1700, I get a 10 inch screen, a weak transmeta cpu, and pretty much nothing else.

[clonenode]

There is no true innovation in these new Tablet PCs. They are just flat-panel displays with some extra circuits, a hard drive and battery, that allow pen input. There is nothing ergonomic about holding a thin, hard rectangle in your hand.

I challenge Apple to redefine what a handheld computer can be. It should NOT be a computer that happens to be small enough to hold in my hand. It SHOULD be a comfortable handheld device that happens to act like a computer.

[MrBillData]

[quote]Originally posted by clonenode:
<strong>There is no true innovation in these new Tablet PCs. They are just flat-panel displays with some extra circuits, a hard drive and battery, that allow pen input. There is nothing ergonomic about holding a thin, hard rectangle in your hand.

I challenge Apple to redefine what a handheld computer can be. It should NOT be a computer that happens to be small enough to hold in my hand. It SHOULD be a comfortable handheld device that happens to act like a computer.</strong><hr></blockquote>

A Tablet is practical replacement of a professionals Foliofile. Just ask Franklin, there are 10s of millions of them in use today.

We aren't talking about PDAs, we are talking about a Tablet PC. PDAs are merging with Cellphones and getting smaller and provide instant access to small amounts of data. Tablets provide a practical data interface for large amounts of data and/or graphics.

As I have said before, the iBook is perfectly suited for such a metamorphosis. It is the perfect weight and size.

[BrunoBruin]

Didn't Apple actually DO this 10 years ago? Newton started out as a handheld AND a tablet-sized device. They decided to concentrate on the handheld and get that to market first, IIRC. I think they had gotten so far as working prototypes of the larger model. But the market never materialized and the tablet version never saw the light of day.

[The Swan]

Firstly, where do people get this silly idea that the TabletPC's are heavy?

<a href="http://www.compaq.com/products/tabletpc/" target="_blank">http://www.compaq.com/products/tabletpc/</a>

Three pounds, enough said.

&lt;sarcasm&gt;
rsgunther, yeah, these things are just so heavy. And compared to a notebook just so awkward to carry.
&lt;/sarcasm&gt; When's the last time you thought, hey, I'd take this legal pad with me to the meeting, but its just too heavy.

Battery concerns people have mentioned. I don't know how long the HP/Compaq one I have mentioned above lasts. However, we all know that G3/G4 processors are much lower power consumers than at least the Pentiums. I don't know how they compare to a 1Ghz Crusoe. However, if Apple can get an iBook w/700Mhz G3 and 12.1" screen (aka, mine) to run four hours on a battery, then surely the could get a machine with a smaller screen, and less hardware (optical drive, etc) to run six+ w/a lithium polymer battery.

clonenode, you know, the iPod is no real innovation either then. Its just a hard drive with an MP3 decoder, playlists, and a solid state wheel. Its not always if you make something new, its MUCH more often a new way of making things work together.

Here is the BIG, BIG plus I see with the Tablet PC. I can't stand in a hallway chatting with someone and talking notes on my iBook, unless I have somewhere to set it. With the Tablet PC, I can. "But hey, you can do that with a Palm." Yeah, on a freaking tiny screen, forget it!

Further attacks have been made on price. Of course its expensive, it just bloody came out! If there is even moderate interest we will see sub-$1000 Tablet PC's with all the docking station accessories included.

From reading threads at Slashdot the handwriting recognition on XP Tablet is pretty good, if not better than Inkwell/Newton. GASP! I tend to believe what I read at Slashdot, as they are no friend of Microsoft, and several posters have actually used these devices or prototypes. But, this is a non-issue, I'm not asking about M$ Tablets, I'm asking about the Apple ones that should be here, and we all know their recognition will kick a$$.

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: The Swan ]</p>

[Amorph]

[quote]Originally posted by The Swan:
<strong>Firstly, where do people get this silly idea that the TabletPC's are heavy?

<a href="http://www.compaq.com/products/tabletpc/" target="_blank">http://www.compaq.com/products/tabletpc/</a>

Three pounds, enough said.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That one's nicer weight-wise, but it suffers from a screen with Squint-O-Matic(TM) technology - 10x7 in a 10.1" screen! - and still has to hedge with a keyboard because XP isn't an OS designed for a pen interface. And, of course, no optical drive, so if you want to use the thing as more than an accessory you end up needing to carry the thing and its accessories in a bag. At that point, why not just get a notebook? You know, the paper kind?

Apple had to roll out the 14" iBook because too many people complained that 10x7 was unreadable on a 12.1" screen - a really nice, bright, sharp 12.1" screen. Make it even smaller, and even fewer people will be interested.


[quote]<strong>Here is the BIG, BIG plus I see with the Tablet PC. I can't stand in a hallway chatting with someone and talking notes on my iBook, unless I have somewhere to set it. With the Tablet PC, I can. "But hey, you can do that with a Palm." Yeah, on a freaking tiny screen, forget it!</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you got one of the lighter ones, and if the HWR really makes it that simple, and if the interface makes it as dead easy as the Newt's did to create, store and search for your scribblings. It's a theoretical advantage.

Also, the more casually you hold it, the more likely you are to drop it. I'm waiting for something less brittle than glass-based LCDs to go mainstream before these really take off.

[quote]<strong>Further attacks have been made on price. Of course its expensive, it just bloody came out!</strong><hr></blockquote>

But all it is, mechanically, is a funny-looking notebook. Wired profiled some random designer who turned the screen around on his clamshell iBook and added touch sensitivity to make himself a tablet. This is not rocket science.

And Apple added a HWR engine and interface to Jaguar without sending prices into the skies.

[quote]<strong>From reading threads at Slashdot the handwriting recognition on XP Tablet is pretty good, if not better than Inkwell/Newton.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Inkwell might be based on the same technology as the Newton's HWR, but by all accounts it's not as good as the Newton was at its height. It's one more thing that has to mature before you build an entire platform around it.

The other thing is, you need an interface designed to be used with a pen.

The Apple tablet - or whatever - will be here when Apple can offer a tablet that doesn't suck. The current Windows offerings are ho-hum or worse, and the potential of the tablet design means nothing in and of itself. Apple's been playing with tablet designs for 15 years (including a Newton variant). When the reality comes near the potential, you'll see one. In the meantime, these will continue to be useful vertical market machines in some niches.

I mean, if the best Bill Gates can do is compare his new baby to a Newton 130, it's got a long way to go. :)

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>

[Rhumgod]

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>tablet to one side, paper to the other</strong><hr></blockquote>

It took me a little time, but here ya go:

http://x2112.dyndns.org/images/ipad.jpg

Like this?

[The Swan]

[quote]That one's nicer weight-wise, but it suffers from a screen with Squint-O-Matic(TM) technology - 10x7 in a 10.1" screen! - and still has to hedge with a keyboard because XP isn't an OS designed for a pen interface.<hr></blockquote>

I iterate, I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF THESE TABLET PC's. 10x7 is just dumb on this size screen, and HP was stupid to do it. That said, 8x6 would be just dandy. As a side, if you bitch about the 12.x" 10x7 iBooks, get glasses. My eyesight is no longer great, but my display is easily readable, and yes boys and girls I do code on it for hours at at a time. I also think the Windows XP TABLET PC EDITION is designed to work with a pen interfacem but as someone aptly pointed out, while I can type 60+ words a minute, there is no way in hell I can scribble that fast.

[quote]And, of course, no optical drive, so if you want to use the thing as more than an accessory you end up needing to carry the thing and its accessories in a bag.<hr></blockquote>

Ya know, you might just have to wait to burn that CD until you get back to your desk, instead of DURING the board meeting. Truthfully I don't use my optical drive more than a handful of times a week. Surely other people use theirs much more often, but I would wager that it is still a small fraction of the time they use their computer. Tablet PC's are NOT desktop replacements, in the sense that they provide everything you have at your desktop on the road. However, they are in that you can use them at your desk, then grab the brains and screen and use it elsewhere. THIS is cool. Passport, but the hardware kind, not the kind Crap-rosoft holds on their servers.

[quote] If you got one of the lighter ones, and if the HWR really makes it that simple, and if the interface makes it as dead easy as the Newt's did to create, store and search for your scribblings. It's a theoretical advantage. <hr></blockquote>

Remind me why I'd get a heavy one again? As to the interface, I iterate, I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF THESE TABLET PC's. Clearly Apple's done it right once, why not again. 10 years ago everyone said that the Newton was ahead of its time, too far ahead. Time has caught up, go into the archives, blow off the dust, revamp it and show me what can be done with today's processors, displays, and batteries.

[Rhumgod]

[quote]Originally posted by The Swan:
<strong>That said, 8x6 would be just dandy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

A bit smaller would be good, as these things need to be fairly small, like the Newton screen. I would say 6x4 (or 3.75, technically if you want to hit the 16:10 aspect ratio of the cinema displays) would be fine.

[klinux]

I don't understand this odd fascination with Newton. It's screen is terrible and illegible. I'd take a backlit transflective screen like those found in Clie and certain PocketPCs anyday.

[Rhumgod]

[quote]Originally posted by klinux:
<strong>I don't understand this odd fascination with Newton. It's screen is terrible and illegible. I'd take a backlit transflective screen like those found in Clie and certain PocketPCs anyday.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think it is assumed that it would get a modern day screen, not the 5 year old screen from one of the latter-day Newtons.

[DJ_Adequate]

[quote]Originally posted by The Swan:
<strong>Firstly, where do people get this silly idea that the TabletPC's are heavy?

<a href="http://www.compaq.com/products/tabletpc/" target="_blank">http://www.compaq.com/products/tabletpc/</a>

Three pounds, enough said.

&lt;sarcasm&gt;
rsgunther, yeah, these things are just so heavy. And compared to a notebook just so awkward to carry.
&lt;/sarcasm&gt; When's the last time you thought, hey, I'd take this legal pad with me to the meeting, but its just too heavy
[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: The Swan ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

So where exactly do you buy your three pound legal pads? I have a large selection here, and I swear all of them are lighter than my iPod.

Three pounds is still to much to carry around without noticing. Especially since I can't clip it to a belt, or put it in a pocket--instead I just have to lug it around by hand all day.

I actually worked for a while in WordPerfect's Pen division many years ago--before the coming of Newton, even. I wish a good pen device would come out, but I sure don't think these Tablet PC's are the answer.

[MrBillData]

The Newton screen was much too small.

Which is why I owned the eMate.

There is a reason why they are referred to as Tablet PCs and not Jumbo PDAs. Its because they are not scaled down featureless devices.

Tablet PCs should be just like notebooks. Some can be basic and some can be crammed full of options. The only difference is a Tablet may or may not have a keyboard.

[Ptrash]

[quote]Originally posted by James B:
<strong>Hasn't Apple publically said that they'll 'wait and see' in regards to the Tablet PC.

I don't think the market is ready for the tablet pc. It just seems like a PDA and Laptop blended together. I don't mind the laptops/tablet combo, but think that it'll be a few years away till the market (and the technology) is really ready for tablets.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Two years from now, tablet/notebook combos will outsell all other hardware, and companies won't even be able to sell a notebook if the screen isn't removeable/convertable into a tablet. The question is: will Apple, burned by it's Newton experience, benefit by waiting before entering the market, or wind up as a Johnny-come-lately, maginalized once again.

[Matsu]

Ok Rhumgod, that's getting there, assuming that it's small and thin. But the non-tablet side would really be nothing more than a foldable semi-hard cover. It would accept either a paper pad, or a keyboard if required. The screen section would have an active digitizer so that even a dumb stylus (plastic stick) could operate it, but I would include one of the following:

<a href="http://www.otmtech.com/news.asp" target="_blank">http://www.otmtech.com/news.asp</A>

or

<a href="http://www.anoto.com" target="_blank">www.anoto.com</a>

The only knock against Anoto is that it requires special paper. Either pen could be made with ink, pencil and/or stlus so you can select the tip you need for the surface at hand. It's bluetooth, so when you have put the pad down, at least with the OTM tech, you can scribble on ANY available surface and get that info immediately digitized on your screen.

Ideally, you would flip the notebook for left or right handed use, or over it's spine to work directly on the screen, or even sideways as you've pictured it (in landscape) if that happens to be more comfortable in your given situation.

I wouldn't even go so big as B5 sizes, A5 would be fine and dandy, no bigger than the average spiral notebook, diary, agenda... Resolution doesn't have to be super high, but contrast and legibility do. More important for the OS to be appropriate for the screen (Newton, Palm, Pixo...) than a perfect OSX desktop. Could even be OSX, but it would need to be presented differently.

[Bioflavonoid]

Guys,
I type faster than I write; I write faster than I can input stupid weird sqiggles onto a 5 pound brick. Why would you give up a keyboard? Microsoft's whole idea behind this is to be more productive right? If that's true, I would rather type 70 words per minute than 20 words per minute (if even that much). I have to admit, it DOES look appealing, but I just don't know why someone wouldn't rather have a 1GHz Powerbook... :confused:
The only thing that I could think of that could be useful with the touchscreen is that it could allow you to do better detailed work in Photoshop etc...

So, unless you live in a communist country where you are forced to stand and walk around all day taking notes on your computer, just go with a laptop...

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: Bioflavonoid ]</p>

[Matsu]

Exactly, which is why such a device could never replace a computer, merely supplement it. For that reason they have to be small, light, relatively low powered and CHEAP!

Which is why, depite all my discussion about it's ideal form, it won't be possible for another few years yet. They could do what I say using a PDA as a base, but people here seem to want a pocketable computer.

[The Swan]

If you have trouble carrying around three pounds, you've got bigger fish to fry than which computer to buy.

[Xaqtly]

Look, I was promised flying cars. Where are the flying cars?

[Bioflavonoid]

[quote]Originally posted by The Swan:
<strong>If you have trouble carrying around three pounds, you've got bigger fish to fry than which computer to buy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey, I don't have a problem carrying it around...I just don't know why I would have the need to figure out the company's payroll while doing the Tour de France (don't get on me for exaggerating a bit). It's a gimmick and you can't tell me different!
;)

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: Bioflavonoid ]</p>

[jante99]

Here is a simply way for Apple to create a "tablet" computer.

Keep the iBook and PowerBook exactly the same (but add internal bluetooth) and build a pen that can be used to tap on the screen and control the computer. The pen would be extra so if you don't want the feature you don't have to buy it. This would create a semi-tablet PC but without all the downsides.
The pen could be used up to 35 feet away from the computer (I think this is the range of bluetooth). You could keep your iBook in a bag while you take notes in class but your writing would be stored on the iBook as a text file. (Not a pointless tiff image).

The one problem with this is that if the pen worked as a real pen, then it couldn't be used on the screen. Also Apple would have to develope extremly accurate handwriting recinition.

Apple could claim that every labtop sold is in fact "tablet PC" ready.

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: jante99 ]</p>

[The Swan]

No, its not a gimmick. I think my iBook at 4.9 pounds is pretty light, shave off 40% of the weight and I'd call it a feather. Honestly, I have books (real ones) that I use for reference all the time (Deitel & Deitel rocks!) and DO carry them around that are 3 pounds. But I guess I just Think Different and so do you.

[Nebrie]

These Tablet PCs get roughly 2-4 hours battery life according to Microsoft. (Real life battery life: 1-2 hours).

I have yet to see a good review on these things. This is just like Windows CE 1.0, it needs so much work it's not even funny.

[Bioflavonoid]

[quote]Originally posted by The Swan:
<strong>No, its not a gimmick. I think my iBook at 4.9 pounds is pretty light, shave off 40% of the weight and I'd call it a feather. Honestly, I have books (real ones) that I use for reference all the time (Deitel & Deitel rocks!) and DO carry them around that are 3 pounds. But I guess I just Think Different and so do you.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, I guess my word usage of "gimmick" wasn't explained. What I really mean is that a computer without a keyboard just doesn't seem useful to me. Now, loving the ibook myself, I would like to see an ibook maybe with a touchscreen display for photshop etc...that's not a bad idea...

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: Bioflavonoid ]</p>

[Zadak]

[quote]Originally posted by fridgemagnet:
<strong>

But I think the point is that Apple don't really have the enterprise customers that MS is aiming for with these things.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would looove to have the ability to swirl the screen on my iBook on meetings. Not to take notes (the keyboard are outstanding for that) but to do sketches!

Imagine OmniGraffle in a tablet version, do superquick, superclean flowcharts right there on the meeting. Save as PDFs and mail them over to the other folks right there.

Would kick som serious ass.

And why not play a game of chess against your pal on it ;)

Take notes? Its silly. No one takes notes on their Wacom tablets...

[Amorph]

[quote]<strong>I iterate, I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF THESE TABLET PC's.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That tends to diminish their power as examples, then, doesn't it?

The fact is that I'm so completely unconcerned with the success or failure of the tablet PCs that I don't understand why people are pressuring Apple to follow suit.

Steve's already given his opinion: He's not convinced anything will happen with them, but if so, Apple has the pieces in place to make their own tablet. Which is pretty much what I've been saying: If Apple isn't releasing a tablet, it's because they don't see the point yet. And they're happy to let MS spend all the money and take all the risks this time.

[quote]<strong>10x7 is just dumb on this size screen, and HP was stupid to do it. That said, 8x6 would be just dandy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And Windows XP (or, for that matter, OS X) would look like crap on it, too. Tablets need their own interfaces, unless you're content to make them funny-looking laptops with pen support bolted on as an afterthought.

Another thing I'm waiting for: Super high-resolution displays, 300 dpi or so, and a resolution independent GUI (which neither Windows nor OS X currently has). The coarseness of today's displays is painfully obvious when you're using a pen.

[quote]<strong>As a side, if you bitch about the 12.x" 10x7 iBooks, get glasses.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's a noble sentiment, I'm sure, but Apple still rolled out the 14" 1024x768 iBook to cheers, and there appears to be no shortage of people willing to pay for the extra size. Apple wouldn't have hustled that model out in a few months if there wasn't a real demand for it. I know some of the people who would have demanded it, too, and they already have glasses. ;)

As for me, I don't need glasses to love the 12" iBook's screen. But then, my coworkers all think I'm insane for actually running my 17" LCD at 1280x1024 (its native resolution).

[quote]<strong>I also think the Windows XP TABLET PC EDITION is designed to work with a pen interfacem but as someone aptly pointed out, while I can type 60+ words a minute, there is no way in hell I can scribble that fast.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's hard to say without actually looking at one, but I'm willing to bet that they didn't do a ground-up redesign of the interface. I'll bet it's like Jaguar with Inkwell, more or less: Not bad, but designed for WIMP with pen support bolted on, and uncomfortable at any resolution below 10x7. After all, it's Windows.

(It should be pretty clear by now that I wouldn't care for an Apple tablet running OS X as it appears now, either.)

[quote]<strong>Ya know, you might just have to wait to burn that CD until you get back to your desk, instead of DURING the board meeting.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But you might really want to read that CD that someone just lobbed you during the meeting, or that contains the SKUs for this month's stock so that you can cruise around with your tablet and do an accurate inventory. Or whatever.

You might even want to stick in a DVD and lie down in your dorm room. Who knows?

So called "tethered" tablets - in the sense that they're essentially married to a desktop or server to get full functionality - have been discussed a lot on these forums. Depending on exactly how tethered they are, they can be very light, but useless beyond a certain radius, which is unappealing. Especially for a $1000+ device.

On the other hand, as soon as you make the tablet a laptop replacement - not a desktop replacement ;) - the reasons to prefer it to a laptop become scarce. So you have compromise designs like the Compaq that try to have it both ways.

[quote]


If you got one of the lighter ones, and if the HWR really makes it that simple, and if the interface makes it as dead easy as the Newt's did to create, store and search for your scribblings. It's a theoretical advantage.



<strong>Remind me why I'd get a heavy one again?</strong><hr></blockquote>

So you could have a full-featured computer? You might not get one, but IIRC Gates was showing off one of the bigger ones, so clearly someone would.

[quote]<strong>10 years ago everyone said that the Newton was ahead of its time, too far ahead. Time has caught up, go into the archives, blow off the dust, revamp it and show me what can be done with today's processors, displays, and batteries.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unfortunately, NewtonOS is dead. OS X is way too heavy; Pixo's OS seems to be too light. I would like to see something evolved up from the Newton, which was absolutely nothing like a laptop - either in hardware or software. I can see a nice little machine with either no HDD or an iPod style HDD - backing store used every once in a while to refresh RAM - very long battery life and a decent-sized screen (which unfortunately does nothing for your battery life). Frankly, I expect Palm to come closest to this next summer with OS 6, based on what I've read.

But a rejiggered notebook that's trying to run a repainted desktop OS? Uhhh, no.

[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>

[Eugene]

[quote]Originally posted by Rhumgod:
<strong>

It took me a little time, but here ya go:

<a href="http://x2112.dyndns.org/images/ipad.jpg" target="_blank">http://x2112.dyndns.org/images/ipad.jpg</a>

Like this?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Donkey Kong!!!

Do I want to scuff up the screen of my $2000 tablet with a mock pen? Anybody who actually tries to write with a pen-stylus on a touch sensitive screen knows how hard it is.

There has to be a better way...

[Matsu]

Keyboards,

or the aforementioned anoto or OTM pen systems. Write on special paper (anoto) or any-surface OTM, and it goes straight to your computer over bluetooth.

I agree, actually writing on a screen feels really wierd and clumsy, can't match paper.

I find myself really enthused aboutt he whole OTM deal. For about 100USD manufacturers can have a bluetooth enabled device to which they might add any standard ink cartridge, and then the thing would write just like a normal pen on paper, but instantly beam your pen-strokes and character transcriptions to a computer or PDA. Cross tried this before with their cross pad, but this new evolution is even better, it gets rid of the pad altogether.

[peve]

a little off topic, but:

http://www.peve.ch/public/tablet_pc.jpg

dosn't this "other pc" look like a mac 7500/100?

[TJM]

A "tablet" input device I would like to see would be simply a hard sheet, maybe a couple mm thick tops with a pressure-sensitive surface that you would use in conjunction with a regular pad of paper. Slide it under the page you're currently writing on, then just write with an ordinary pen or pencil on the paper. The pad picks up the pen movements and transmits it via USB or Bluetooth to an adjoining laptop. Software can then either translate it to text or leave it as drawings. Similar to current graphics pad technology, only much thinner. Personally, I would have lots of uses for something like that.

[Matsu]

Cross had such a system. OTM and Anoto bring that functionality into the pen itself.

[clonenode]

[quote]Originally posted by The Swan:
<strong> .....clonenode, you know, the iPod is no real innovation either then. Its just a hard drive with an MP3 decoder, playlists, and a solid state wheel. Its not always if you make something new, its MUCH more often a new way of making things work together....
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Swan, I disagree. Everything you list is exactly why the iPod is an innovative MP3 player. Top it off with FireWire and you have a combination that everyone is trying to copy a year later.

Apple's "new way of making things work together" is what has made the iPod an amazing success.

[Fellowship]

2 Issues to address:

#1 If this were Apple with Steve giving the Demo you all would be going nuts.

#2 It is a good idea with true function. It does indeed have a specific target consumer not all but is that not apple?

You all are very sad in how you make fun of progress.

Fellowship

[Steve]

[quote]Originally posted by jante99:
[QB]Here is a simply way for Apple to create a "tablet" computer.

Keep the iBook and PowerBook exactly the same (but add internal bluetooth) and build a pen that can be used to tap on the screen and control the computer. The pen would be extra so if you don't want the feature you don't have to buy it. This would create a semi-tablet PC but without all the downsides.
The pen could be used up to 35 feet away from the computer (I think this is the range of bluetooth). You could keep your iBook in a bag while you take notes in class but your writing would be stored on the iBook as a text file. (Not a pointless tiff image).<hr></blockquote>

This is a very, very good idea. It would also be the justifiable "killer app" for Blue Tooth.

[bgramer]

[quote]Originally posted by James B:
<strong>Hasn't Apple publically said that they'll 'wait and see' in regards to the Tablet PC.

I don't think the market is ready for the tablet pc. It just seems like a PDA and Laptop blended together. I don't mind the laptops/tablet combo, but think that it'll be a few years away till the market (and the technology) is really ready for tablets.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed. They did say that. As for PDA/Laptop blended together... isn't that what Apple intended with Emate, hmm.... about 5 years ago? :-)

[Telomar]

[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>#1 If this were Apple with Steve giving the Demo you all would be going nuts.

#2 It is a good idea with true function. It does indeed have a specific target consumer not all but is that not apple?

You all are very sad in how you make fun of progress.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. Considering it really isn't anything new not really. All this is is Microsoft announcing their tablet OS really.

I work in one of the few industries that will likely see some adoption of tablets and despite my earlier desires for one I sit here and realise it is totally and utterly useless to me. If Apple released this I would likely be dumping stock.

2. That's the problem it really doesn't have any true function. It's currently just an expensive notepad/clipboard, which is fine if you care for that sort of thing but considering it still won't interface with the apps I need it to it's going to be useless.

In each other case I can think of a competing technology that could handle the job it does and that I already use.

The one area I could see it having promise is as a central wireless operating hub for the house but they'd really need to drop prices and very few houses are outfitted to allow for such a thing. It's also debateable whether that sort of functionality is really any use. I know several of the iHomes had a tablet for that purpose and in many cases after the house was bought the systems went unused or were removed.

I think it is rather more sad how you attack other people. These tablets really aren't new and they really aren't successful or proven to be progress of any kind yet. What I see in this case is another needless product in Microsoft's attempts to increase its revenue base. You may think that's progress but I don't. When it has true functionality and purpose then I will see progress.

[RolandG]

A saw the Acer transformable notebook in person yesterday. The display locking and rotating mechanisme look really bad in quality. I can only hope that the other manufacturers do better. But they are still way too expensive, IMO.

Noone was able to give me a real demo of the OS because they had just played around with that thing and were not instructed by MS in any way.

So I can't say anything about the HWR but I noticed that your writing is not translated until you tell the system to do so. It rather rest on that virtual sheet of paper. And this is the one point that I found most annoying about Inkwell: You could not correct anything you wrote because the system transleted your scribble once you liftet the pen.

[admactanium]

it can do it either way if i recall, just like the newton used to do. you can keep it as scribble text or you can choose to have it convert on the fly. i messed around with one a while ago (yes i know they were just released) and the hwr is very very good. better than the newton's was on my 130 or inkwell. it's a cool little machine. i don't know if i would personally find it incredibly useful since i type around 80 wpm. but i can see where it would be useful for some folks.

the hwr is also much more integrated with the os than inkwell is with jaguar. you can use hwr pretty much anywhere that text can be entered. i didn't play with it for more than a couple hours though so i can't really comment on how it works long term.

[Matsu]

[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>2 Issues to address:

#1 If this were Apple with Steve giving the Demo you all would be going nuts.

#2 It is a good idea with true function. It does indeed have a specific target consumer not all but is that not apple?

You all are very sad in how you make fun of progress.

Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>

Except that the arguments being made here against the tablet are all valid. Your probably right in that many would instantly forget them if Steve were demoing it on stage, but ht doesn't change the fact that the TabletPC just isn't ready using current technology.

Since I've been arguing against an Apple tablet since the early days of Kormac's apostolic church, and I don't particularly care for uncle Steve or brother Bill, I think I'm very objective about this whole thing.

As to the Bluetooth Pen idea, do I hear an echo in here or what? I've been mentioning this for over a year.

A tablet faces serious problems because it does not solve any ergonomic issues, it introduces new ones! An honest look at devices that are used for writing and when standing (pen and paper pad) reveal that the range of comfortable form factors is VERY limited. Nothing close to a 15" screen. Yes you sometimes see people writing on a letter or legal size clipboard, but said board is very thin and light. Any paper notebook in such use is often no bigger than A5 size. Students writing on larger surfaces do so at desks or on their laps -- recognize that territory? That's where you use a notebook computer, haha. And while a 5-10lbs laptop can be fine, even a two to three pound book, grasped with ONE hand ALONG THE SPINE, and pressed upon with the OTHER hand, will tire out and strain your hands faster than typing. I know, I've held such text books aloft for 1-2 hours at a time while teaching, just for reference, without writing on them. Even trade paperback books (approx A5 size) are often supported by two hands when reading, and they weigh less than 2 lbs. The shape is awkward for stand up usage -- all our behavior around regular paper reveals that -- but once you sit, then a traditional laptop computer has the advantage.

For stand up usage, A5 size, thinness and lightness are needed. Then display issues arise. You won't have 1024x768, dektop OS friendly resolutions unless you have software that can intelligently scale/zoom text and icons. The device has to be easily legible in all lighting conditions. NO PDA sized screens either, too small.

I tell ya, Palm could make a better a tablet right now by making a little slate with it's screen about 4X bigger than current PDA's and some good software that communicated easily with the mothership OS (be that windows or OSX) and with wireless networks, good file compatibility and multimedia content viewers, and database organization capabilities.

[Belle]

3lbs may not be a lot to carry around in a bag, or under your arm, but here's a little experiment: Take a 3lb laptop (I used a Thinkpad), rest a legal pad on top of it, then cradle it in your arm and try to write on it as you would with a clipboard or tablet PC. Now I may be a weak, sick, little girl, but it gets very uncomfortable.

It seems to me, given the cited markets for the tablet PC (education, enterprise, medicine, ...) that this is a perfect opportunity to resurrect thin clients.

All it would need is a decent display, a very low-power processor, enough RAM to act as a buffer, a basic graphics chip, and WiFi (802.11g ideally, but with compression 802.11b would be usable.)

I can't see many advantages in trying to transform a fully featured laptop into a tablet PC.

[JLL]

[quote]Originally posted by admactanium:
<strong>the hwr is also much more integrated with the os than inkwell is with jaguar. you can use hwr pretty much anywhere that text can be entered.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Uhm, Inkwell in Jaguar does let you use hwr in any app. that takes text input.

[mithras the prophet]

I've long wanted the Ideal Note-Taking Computer. I've been a student or a teacher my whole life, so I think in academic terms, but I'm sure it would be applicable to business as well.

These are my thoughts:
1. Needs a pen.
I've tried using a notebook for notetaking (!) from time to time, but it doesn't work. You need to have a pen to sketch a diagram or table.

2. Needs a keyboard
I've also tried taking notes with a Palm. No-go. Slow handwriting recognition isn't fast enough.

Even the store-it-now, decode-it-later method, as used by the Newton or the new Tablet PCs, isn't that useful. If I want 100% accurate, searchable, backupable, emailable text, which is the reason to use a computer in the first place, then I want to use a keyboard.

3. Needs to be flat
If you've ever been at a conference table or classroom with someone using a laptop, you know how bad it sucks. The screen hides their hands, and part of their face, and makes it very unnatural to communicate with them.

Also, trying to draw on a hinged laptop screen sounds like asking for an ugly accident, with the laptop falling over backwards.

But if the computer lays flat like a pad of paper, then it's out of the way, recording notes, rather than interfering with the learning.

Conclusion
All of these thoughts brings me to a design something like this (forgive the 2-minute copy-and-paste job):
http://homepage.mac.com/rivkagalchen/screenshots/ipad.png

It's kind of screwy looking, and the proportions are off (too tall) but you get the idea: You can type on it, because that is how God intended text to be entered. You can sketch on it, because that is how God intended drawings to be made. It lays flat, because that works naturally.

If Apple made an iPad/iBook variant like this, I'd get one in a second.

[ 11-10-2002: Message edited by: mithras the prophet ]

[ 11-10-2002: Message edited by: mithras the prophet ]</p>

[heinzel]

[quote]Originally posted by jante99:
<strong>Here is a simply way for Apple to create a "tablet" computer.

Keep the iBook and PowerBook exactly the same (but add internal bluetooth) and build a pen that can be used to tap on the screen and control the computer. The pen would be extra so if you don't want the feature you don't have to buy it. This would create a semi-tablet PC but without all the downsides.
The pen could be used up to 35 feet away from the computer (I think this is the range of bluetooth). You could keep your iBook in a bag while you take notes in class but your writing would be stored on the iBook as a text file. (Not a pointless tiff image).

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sonunds like a great idea to me, too. This would obviate to make the screen itself pressure-sensitive and thus less readable. Additionally, it would be nice if the screen could be taken off, i.e. with a full featured computer to be built in including the batteries, etc. w/o the keyboard, optical drive and strong battery, which this way would be lighter weight. The OS running the screen also would have to be more lightweight, such as the NewtonOS and when taken off, the screen would only run it quasi in "pen-friendly mode" (how much pen input do you actually need apart from a journal that does what the Newton did?). Once back on the keyboard/optical unit, the data input would be available to applications under MacOSX on the main unit and synch or copy the input automatically. Of course through the Pen and Inkwell you could still run the whole unit in a pen-based fashion, but not in the pen-optimized format that would be implemented in the screen. This way you would get the best of both worlds. It also would justify the $2500 for essentially a supercharged iBook with a "Smartscreen". Might be too complicated to implement, though... .

[heinzel]

Actually, a similar approach to the iMac, i.e. make the screen so one can take it off with limited functionality but this time with WLAN or Bluetooth to connect to the base station, such as EMail, web browsing, TV remote control would be pretty cool, too , and not just be an answer but an extension of the Mira device by Microsoft, wouldn't it?

[admactanium]

[quote]Originally posted by JLL:
<strong>

Uhm, Inkwell in Jaguar does let you use hwr in any app. that takes text input.</strong><hr></blockquote>
sorry, you're right. i haven't used inkwell all that much. but the hwr system in the tablet pc is pretty good. i never really had problems with hwr anyway because my handwriting is pretty neat. but even other folks who were using it got good results. better than i would have expected from my newton. but even having it around, most people just ended up playing with it and drawing pictures. not sure how practically useful it is.

[strobe]

Why not just have a PowerBook with a hinge which allows the display to be folded back like a chequebook, then you have the best of all worlds.

[Rhumgod]

[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Do I want to scuff up the screen of my $2000 tablet with a mock pen?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am not sure where you got the idea you wrote on the screen directly, other than Matsu's ideas. That is what the black 'pad' was at the bottom of the device, and one where you could insert paper if you prefer the 'paper feel' as Matsu had described earlier. And where, oh where, does the $2000 price tag come from. This is a 'cheap' device, more like 399-499 certainly not 2 Gs. This ain't a Tablet PC. If I plan on spending 2 grand, I'll buy a Powerbook (guess what, I did!)

[Rhumgod]

[quote]Originally posted by strobe:
<strong>Why not just have a PowerBook with a hinge which allows the display to be folded back like a chequebook, then you have the best of all worlds.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because it's just way too large, and the battery life is only 2.5 hours (on mine after 1 year of use). These need to have 6-8 hour life with 2-3 day standby - think digital cell phone and you probably have a good idea of battery life. Needs to be small because you will carry it around at work. Needs to NOT have a keyboard, because that is what a laptop is for. With those thoughts in mind, it is basically a tablet PC, without the weight (I am talking around a pound, not 3-5 as the Compaq's etc are), and without the cost but extended battery life. Obviously you lose some features, but those are found in a laptop of roughly the same size anyway. If that is the need, get an iBook. There isn't anything of any worth in this area I am describing. That's where a company like Apple, with it's wonderful innovative designs, could really do well. Ala, iPod.

[DJ_Adequate]

[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>2 Issues to address:

#1 If this were Apple with Steve giving the Demo you all would be going nuts.

#2 It is a good idea with true function. It does indeed have a specific target consumer not all but is that not apple?

You all are very sad in how you make fun of progress.

Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not making fun of the idea, just bringing up past experience. The basic idea here is not new. As I said in my last post, back in the early nineties I did research for this at WordPerfect--back when Microsoft called its offering PenOS, instead of TabletPC. I was initially quite taken with the idea--but it just didn't work in practice. The limitations and price just outweighed the benefits.

And as far as I can see nothing has changed in TabletXP that eliminates the problem we found 10 years ago in trying this. Especially since in the last 10 years, keyboards and computers have become more and more a natural part of our business existence. It used to be one of the target markets was business executives who weren't comfortable with keyboards. I doubt that class of people even exists any more.

Some of the hybrid paper/computer ideas expressed here seem a more fruitfull area for research.

[ 11-12-2002: Message edited by: DJ_Adequate ]</p>