My body, my choice, unless it's a breast implant

[trumptman]

No boobies for you (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92866,00.html)

NOW seems to be lobbying again against silicon breast implants ignoring another 10 years worth of studies that show them to be harmless.

Why is it that they support a woman's right to abort with few/no restrictions at almost any age? Yet they want the government to restrict what grown women do with their own bodies. Most of these women also do it for esteem and image issues so if anything you would think that the woman, her mental state, and her choice would override just about anything. However in this instance they go against what the women want, what the science says, and just pursue an agenda that seems in opposition to what they should support.

What gives?

Nick

[Anders]

Are your body a breast implant?

[der Kopf]

Maybe, just maybe, they consider a breast implant not so much something a woman would want for herself, as something a woman would want to fare better "in a man's world". I don't know. Boss over your own body, unless that "you" becomes entangled with über-personal factors, such as men's preference for overly large breasts, and men's overal near-dictatorial impact on current ideals concerning beauty. I mean, I try to infuse a bit of what I feel might be feminist rhetoric in the view I lay here before you.

[Scott]

In this case it's a product. The only issue is if it's safe. I guess NOW thinks that they aren't. They maybe wrong. They bought into the line pushed by the trial lawyers. So science is irrelevant.

[Anders]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Maybe, just maybe, they consider a breast implant not so much something a woman would want for herself, as something a woman would want to fare better "in a man's world". I don't know. Boss over your own body, unless that "you" becomes entangled with über-personal factors, such as men's preference for overly large breasts, and men's overal near-dictatorial impact on current ideals concerning beauty. I mean, I try to infuse a bit of what I feel might be feminist rhetoric in the view I lay here before you.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

But thats the case I hope NOW will be slaughtered for using false arguments. If safety isn´t the issue for them then it boarders lying when they use it as the argument for their case

[trumptman]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Maybe, just maybe, they consider a breast implant not so much something a woman would want for herself, as something a woman would want to fare better "in a man's world". I don't know. Boss over your own body, unless that "you" becomes entangled with über-personal factors, such as men's preference for overly large breasts, and men's overal near-dictatorial impact on current ideals concerning beauty. I mean, I try to infuse a bit of what I feel might be feminist rhetoric in the view I lay here before you.

That still seems awfully hypocritical. Sort of like I support free speech as long as you don't disagree with me.

If they support a woman doing as they wish with their body, that should also include things with which they do not agree or doesn't fit into their one world view.

Likewise not all implants are about getting overly large breasts. In fact I would bet that the average cup size for an implant is a "C" and not a "DD" or anything like that. If a woman has an "A" or just flat chest, which if anything would denote looking more male, shouldn't she be entitled to do what makes her feel fully like a woman, or female?

Likewise if men determine what is an attractive female, then who determines what is an attractive male? Gay men? Opposing something because it is oppressive is one thing. Opposing it because men might like it in addition to women is just silly.

Nick

[trumptman]

Originally posted by Anders
Are your body a breast implant?

Is your body an abortion?

Obviously both are procedures done to your body.

Try again...

Nick

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by trumptman
That still seems awfully hypocritical.

Don't forget you're talking about NOW, the same group that raised funds to foot the legal bill of a woman (Andrea Yates) who drowned, yes DROWNED, her 5 children in a bathtub, because her boyfriend or whatever left her, and she went into "post-partum depression".

[BRussell]

Hey, trumptman started a thread. IBL!
Originally posted by der Kopf
Don't forget you're talking about NOW, the same group that raised funds to foot the legal bill of a woman (Andrea Yates) who drowned, yes DROWNED, her 5 children in a bathtub, because her boyfriend or whatever left her, and she went into "post-partum depression".1. She didn't have a boyfriend, AFAIK.
2. Her husband hadn't left her.
3. She had been diagnosed with a mental illness and was on psychiatric meds.
4. "Post-partum depression" (not sure why you have quotes around it - is not real?) is caused by child-birth and the aftermath, hence post-partum, not because your boyfriend leaves you.
5. Well, I guess I'll stop at 4.

[Powerdoc]

I can't understand why the NOW is against SIB implants. As a plastic surgeon who practiced this type of surgery, i cannot understand such an attitude.

SIB implant are better than saline implants. Saline implants have some big disavantages : they are subject to desinflation, and they have a lesser esthetic results. I have replaced some of the first breast salines implants i implanted some years ago, because of their failure. This failure won't have occured if i had the right at the time to use SIB at the time. SIB have a much better esthetic result, and a much longer life expectancy.
Since 2001 , i implante only SIB in esthetic surgery. And quite all my friends or any french plastic surgeon do the same. There is no comparison possible.

Most women wants breast implants for themselves. Some man love big breast, but not so many.
The breast is the symbol of feminity. When a woman lost a breast (or if the breast it really small) she thinks that she lost a part of her sexual identity. Thats why having breast is so important for her. 90 % of the women i see, for breast implants are doing this surgery for her and not for their husband or boyfriend.
Some husbands are even against the procedure : 'you don't need to do it, you are sufficiently nice for me : who do you want to seduce ? '.
Most of the time this pseudo feminist rhetoric is wrong. Perhaps is it a lesbian rhetoric, some sort of denial of the breast ? I guess it's not, but i don't understand this argument.
The plastic reconstructive surgery of the breast have been made under the pressure of women. It's the women who have asked the surgeon to proceed to a reconstruction. And it's not necessary a young ladies. Sometime a woman of 60 years ask for it, and a young mother refuse it, because she is more concerned by her kids rather than her breasts. Perhaps some years after, when her kids will be older she will ask for it.

So by what psychologist have said about the subject , and confirmed by my personal experience, the Feminist argument is a total bullshit.

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by BRussell
Hey, trumptman started a thread. IBL!
1. She didn't have a boyfriend, AFAIK.
2. Her husband hadn't left her.
3. She had been diagnosed with a mental illness and was on psychiatric meds.
4. "Post-partum depression" (not sure why you have quotes around it - is not real?) is caused by child-birth and the aftermath, hence post-partum, not because your boyfriend leaves you.
5. Well, I guess I'll stop at 4.

Well whatever. No, let me refrase that: WHATEVER. I hope some kindred organisation will foot my legal bill once I decide to off my wife and kids in the bathtub because I'm, you know, hungover or something.

[rok]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Well whatever. No, let me refrase that: WHATEVER. I hope some kindred organisation will foot my legal bill once I decide to off my wife and kids in the bathtub because I'm, you know, hungover or something.

there are not enough "rolleyes" smilies to address that particular post (but that won't stop me from using at least one). :rolleyes:

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by rok
there are not enough "rolleyes" smilies to address that particular post (but that won't stop me from using at least one). :rolleyes:

I realise I may sound harsh, but I just don't see any reason for what NOW did there. It can and will be interpreted by many as some kind of, if not justification, at least minimalisation of Andrea Yates' crime. In some warped way, their fund-raising seems to voice their support for "post-partum depression" induced killing (and BRussell, I put that between quotes because I don't think ANY depression warrants the killing of an entire set of siblings).

Your rolleyes make clear some of what you may be hinting at, but I think it'd be helpful if you'd actually express your thoughts.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by der Kopf
I realise I may sound harsh, but I just don't see any reason for what NOW did there. It can and will be interpreted by many as some kind of, if not justification, at least minimalisation of Andrea Yates' crime. In some warped way, their fund-raising seems to voice their support for "post-partum depression" induced killing (and BRussell, I put that between quotes because I don't think ANY depression warrants the killing of an entire set of siblings).I agree that depression is not (and in reality never has been) a legitimate insanity defense. The question in her case was not depression, it was psychosis, which is and should be a legitimate defense, IMO and in the opinion of most legal analyses. She had been diagnosed with psychosis and was on anti-psychotic meds prior to the killings.

I think NOW was funding her defense because post-partum mental illness is serious and under-acknowledged. And of course everyone is entitled to a defense. It was TX, though, so it was pretty obvious they were throwing their money away.Originally posted by Powerdoc
I can't understand why the NOW is against SIB implants. As a plastic surgeon who practiced this type of surgery, i cannot understand such an attitude. Hey PowerDoc, did you know that there's a new TV show in the US about plastic surgeons, called Nip and Tuck (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/television/6356425.htm)?
:lol:

[alcimedes]

you know, i will give Fox news their due. when everyone else is picking on the NRA et. al., Fox likes to go after the stupid things NOW and NAACP do. keeps everyone honest.

[Giaguara]

Powerdoc, how about breast removals? How often are they asked for? I'm not talking about the reduction of size but just plain removal (or 'reduction' to be like in the pre-adolescence state) . How do the doctors react to a request for removal?

not all women celebrate their boobs as a part of their sexuality (that they did not ask for)

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by Giaguara
Powerdoc, how about breast removals? How often are they asked for? I'm not talking about the reduction of size but just plain removal (or 'reduction' to be like in the pre-adolescence state) . How do the doctors react to a request for removal?

not all women celebrate their boobs as a part of their sexuality (that they did not ask for)

No women never asked me this procedure. Only men who suffer of gynecomastia (women type breast) ask for this procedure. There is a lot of request for reduction, but not so much for removal.

However, if it arrive i would be extremely cautious, remove breast without any medical reasons is considered as a mutilation. I could be sued for that and will probabily loose this kind of trial. I think if a woman ask for such a procedure, a psychiatric advive will be wellcome.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by BRussell
Hey PowerDoc, did you know that there's a new TV show in the US about plastic surgeons, called Nip and Tuck (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/television/6356425.htm)?
:lol:

No i don't. However i consider my job, alike any other medical job : i am a doctor and i try to apply the same guidelines code that any other MD.
Esthetic surgery is only a part of my job : plastic esthetic and reconstructive surgery. A good 50 % of my activity is to remove skin tumors, most of them being skin cancers. There is also surgery of the sore scars, burn ...

In a general way, i hate TV shows speaking of esthetic surgery. I avoid to watch them, at least for the last 4 years. Most of the patients i see in my town are normal people : i find normal that a woman with a pre-adolescent breast wants more, that someone with senile type lids, wants a cure in order to have a more healthy looking face, that a girl with a large butt, wants a more normal one. I don't find normal to do surgery on youngs ladies who wants to look like someone else, TV shows are full of this example, i am against this.

[Giaguara]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
[..]However, if it arrive i would be extremely cautious, remove breast without any medical reasons is considered as a mutilation. I could be sued for that and will probabily loose this kind of trial. I think if a woman ask for such a procedure, a psychiatric advive will be wellcome.

What are the MEDICAL reasons for making the breasts larger then? If even the whatever-size (aaa?) is enough to breastfeed a child, to the breasts to function = feed, there is no need to have any kind of implant in them. Why is making them bigger with implants ok and taking them away not? Of the reductions instead, do they have to be of at least some certain size or is the annoyance / impracticality etc enough motive? E.g. if a "b" is annoying when doing sports etc, can it be sucked to aa or is that seen as mutilation too? (just curious)

[groverat]

Fox definitely has a compelling interest in covering this story. If the breast-implant industry is compromised, who will participate in their reality and game shows? WHO!?

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by Giaguara
What are the MEDICAL reasons for making the breasts larger then? If even the whatever-size (aaa?) is enough to breastfeed a child, to the breasts to function = feed, there is no need to have any kind of implant in them. Why is making them bigger with implants ok and taking them away not? Of the reductions instead, do they have to be of at least some certain size or is the annoyance / impracticality etc enough motive? E.g. if a "b" is annoying when doing sports etc, can it be sucked to aa or is that seen as mutilation too? (just curious)

1) implants do not improve the function of the breast : make milk

2) taking away is a mutilation definitively. Reduction is not. Nobody never asked me to remove a breast for esthetic reason. I think that if someone ask for this, i 'll think that she will have a psychic problem. The size , that want a woman may vary, but they never asked to remove it entirely.

3) b is rarely annoying when practicing sports, larger sizes are.

4) i consider that the normal size are belonging to the b and c range.

5) (just curious) ---> Really ? ;)

[trumptman]

Originally posted by groverat
Fox definitely has a compelling interest in covering this story. If the breast-implant industry is compromised, who will participate in their reality and game shows? WHO!?

Add NBC to that group as well, and MTV (Viacom which is CBS.)

Nick

[trumptman]

On the flip side of Gia's question, Powerdoc at what size if someone requested a breast enlargement would you turn it down saying that a breast that large is a form of self mutilation?

Nick

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by trumptman
On the flip side of Gia's question, Powerdoc at what size if someone requested a breast enlargement would you turn it down saying that a breast that large is a form of self mutilation?

Nick

I would not speak of self mutilation, but i will say, that i refuse to do things i find ugly. It's not because somebody ask me something, that i will do it, even for money.
One time i say no : the women have perfect breasts, b size, but perfect : i refused to enlarge them.
However it's just my personal attitude, perhaps an another surgeon would have said yes.
Most of the time however, there is a real good reason for asking such a procedure : looking like a ten years girls is not really confortable for most women.

In other way, i never suggest any surgical procedure to anyone. I will never said to someone, you should correct your proeminents ears, or whatever. If someone feel he has a problem and i can fix it : OK, but i am not here to create them. This is my prime guideline.

[Aquafire]

Nip & Tuck...So much pressure on women ( and men ) to conform to some sort of ideal body shape..

It has become such a potential minefield for litigation....

That's why I think it best that individuals be referred to a psychologist before going under the surgeons knife..

Some..if not all, have a distorted body image issue that can be best dealt with from a psychological standpoint.

If all those hurdles are overcome, then plastic surgery is OK.

[alcimedes]

must be rough when you have a job where you have to turn a client down because she's shown you her breasts and they're perfect.....

;)

edit: damn spelling....

[Anders]

Originally posted by alcimedes
must be rough when you have a job where you have to turn a client down because she's shown you her breasts and their perfect.....

;)

But an easy score: "Hey honey. Your body is so perfect I refuse to change anything"

[Sundae]

Here is the deal. The silicon could leak and caused the breast tissue to harden. Once this happened, the whole breast has to be removed.

They have been using saline solution for years. If the medical professionals want to do this for money, they better find a way to improve the procedure.

I don't think NOW is against breast implant if it is safe. But they are against it when it is not safe.

It is unfair how guys treated women with different breast sizes. Of course there are exception, but most guys don't pay that much attention to women who normal breast, and pay much more attention to women who larger breast. And maybe women (and men who care about them) could help to change that big breast mean getting the attention they want.

Given that women to do a number of things to get attention, and we all seen them do it. Wearing next to nothing, mini skirts, high slit dress and wearing semi transparent clothings. Maybe men could help NOW to encourage women to have non-surgical way to get men attention.



:lol:

[Ebby]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
As a plastic surgeon who practiced this type of surgery, i cannot understand such an attitude.
Gives a whole new definition to "Powerdoc: Bloody Moderator."
Creepy :wow: I can picture you holding a knife splashed with blood with a BIG grin - :D - on your face. But that might have something to do with the Stephen King stories I just read.

[Artman @_@]

Men who get excited from silicon breast implants have been jerking off TOO long. Next...:rolleyes:

[The General]

Originally posted by trumptman
No boobies for you (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92866,00.html)

NOW seems to be lobbying again against silicon breast implants ignoring another 10 years worth of studies that show them to be harmless.

Why is it that they support a woman's right to abort with few/no restrictions at almost any age? Yet they want the government to restrict what grown women do with their own bodies. Most of these women also do it for esteem and image issues so if anything you would think that the woman, her mental state, and her choice would override just about anything. However in this instance they go against what the women want, what the science says, and just pursue an agenda that seems in opposition to what they should support.

What gives?

Nick
Orginizations like that are now for most women, they have no interest in every day women. it is pretty much an anti-femine womans group, mostly run by Lesbians. if they think a man will get any enjoyment out of it, they just stop it.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by Sundae
Here is the deal. The silicon could leak and caused the breast tissue to harden. Once this happened, the whole breast has to be removed.



This was just extreme issues, personally i never see this case. Third generation SIB are made with much more high cohesive silicon gel, that hardly migrate unlike the older oil like gel. The shelter of the implant is much more strong, and his made of a triple layer, with an intermediate layer, that is scheduled to reduce the migration of the gel.
Any implants are surrounded by a fibrosis created by the body (natural defense reaction). This fibrosis made a compartiment. even if the silicon leaks, it can hardly migrate outside this fibrosis shelter.
Every women with breast implants should have a physical examination each year.

They have been using saline solution for years. If the medical professionals want to do this for money, they better find a way to improve the procedure.

The procedure have not been improved yet, there is other substance to fill the implant rather than saline or silicon. One of them is cellulosis. The advantage is a total lack of local inflammation in case of leaking. But this prosthesis have also disavantages.

When SIB are not allowed in France women went to eastern countries in order to have one. At the age of world globalisation too much restriction leads to the contrary.

I am against breast implants for women having a normal size of breasts : the risk of this procedure, even if low, is worthless. This last point is just my personal opinion.

The fashion in breast size vary from countrie to countries. For example US people tend to like larger breasts than europeans. That's not me who said this, but US plastic surgeons.

That's why I think it best that individuals be referred to a psychologist before going under the surgeons knife..

Some..if not all, have a distorted body image issue that can be best dealt with from a psychological standpoint.

If all those hurdles are overcome, then plastic surgery is OK.

Most people do no need the advice of a psyhcologist : it's ten thousands times more easy to change something in the body, rather to accept it.
However some people should be dealt with the psychologist : dysmorphophobic people. Dysmorphophobic people hate their body. Even if you have a magical wand, you will not be able to make them happy. You should never make a surgery on this people.
HOWEVER this kind of people are in state of denial and would refuse to see the psychologist : when you see somebody is nuts, the best option is to avoid any surgery on him.
Some psychologist advices are however welcome, when you have a doubt. The people seems to have psychological problems, but the surge can help. The help of a psychologist is great here.

I don't consider that psychologie is a gadget, but that it's part of my job. I try to understand why the guy or the women in front of me wants to do the procedure. In many cases, you recocnize easily the classical psychologic pattern : no expert advice are needed here. for the few others , do not do the surgery, or ask the advice of an expert.
Sometimes, people are send to me by their psychiatrists. Esthetic surgery is in many case, a psychologic cure in itself : it raise the level of self-estim of people.

must be rough when you have a job where you have to turn a client down because she's shown you her breasts and they're perfect.....



Sometimes people would love to pay for practicing my job :D



Gives a whole new definition to "Powerdoc: Bloody Moderator."
Creepy I can picture you holding a knife splashed with blood with a BIG grin - - on your face.

The truth may be even scarier :D

[Sundae]

OK. If they are safe. Then it is not really anyone business to stop women from getting implant.

I did want a documentary type shows on implant. And the risk involve.

Is implant really help women who are not satify with their breast size?
In what area does it help?

I could imagine women getting implant for professional reasons. Why not?

But I do understand that what kind of message some feminists want to send. That women 'don't' need implant to please men. Even when men do pay much more attention to women who have large breasts. But why make law to stop it when it is safe to do so? Why not work on educating both men and women that in term of breasts, bigger is not necessary better. (Unlike another part of male anatomy).

Let do a poll here. Who like large breast? And who think breast size really doesn't matter to the 'meat-o-meter'?

;)

[Aquafire]

Originally posted by Sundae

Let do a poll here. Who like large breast? And who think breast size really doesn't matter to the 'meat-o-meter'?


Please let us not go down this path.....:\

[trumptman]

Originally posted by Sundae
OK. If they are safe. Then it is not really anyone business to stop women from getting implant.

I did want a documentary type shows on implant. And the risk involve.

Is implant really help women who are not satify with their breast size?
In what area does it help?

I could imagine women getting implant for professional reasons. Why not?

But I do understand that what kind of message some feminists want to send. That women 'don't' need implant to please men. Even when men do pay much more attention to women who have large breasts. But why make law to stop it when it is safe to do so? Why not work on educating both men and women that in term of breasts, bigger is not necessary better. (Unlike another part of male anatomy).

Let do a poll here. Who like large breast? And who think breast size really doesn't matter to the 'meat-o-meter'?

;)

I like a large breast, especially with BBQ sauce and some potato salad.

Nick

[alcimedes]

i had a friend who got implants. made her much happeir with her self image. she'd won beauty pagents but because she had a flat chest, she always felt crappy about how she looked. the implants changed that.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by alcimedes
i had a friend who got implants. made her much happeir with her self image. she'd won beauty pagents but because she had a flat chest, she always felt crappy about how she looked. the implants changed that.

This is a typical example. Sometimes people are more thanksfull because i have done a esthetic surgery, than i saved their life.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by alcimedes
i had a friend who got implants. made her much happeir with her self image. she'd won beauty pagents but because she had a flat chest, she always felt crappy about how she looked. the implants changed that.

Oh Al, how could you not see that the secret mind control waves the men have been sending out have caused her feelings of inadequacy regarding breast size. She never could have wanted them for herself. There must be a man SOMEWHERE that made her feel that way. :devil: :lol:

Don't you know men are the root of all evil, even when the woman wants the choice, makes the decision, and pays for it herself?

:lol:
Nick