Millionaires in the making-CNN

[trumptman]

I was looking around the CNN financial pages and came across this very cool feature they have been running. It looks at folks with the millionaire mind, notes their net-worth and debts and discusses what they do that leads to their success. As I read through the articles it sounds like there are a lot of shared values and mindsets. You hear things about simplicity even though they are worth tons. They sort of sound like variations on a theme but are all unique.

What do you guys and gals think?

Couple 1 (http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/01/pf/millionaire/rp_randolmillionaire/index.htm)

Couple 2 (http://money.cnn.com/2003/08/08/pf/millionaire/ragstoriches/index.htm)

Couple 3 (http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/15/pf/millionaire/singhmillionaire/index.htm)

Couple 4 (http://money.cnn.com/2003/06/16/pf/millionaire/rp_millionaire_wask/index.htm)

BTW if anyone else know sof a feature like this that profiles couples and how wealth is accumulated, please post links because I find it enjoyable reading.

Nick

[Alex London]

Bollocks to this. Millionaire mind my arse. Threads do not create a man, they reveal him. This is what I think.

[shetline]

Show me something like this that starts with an objective profile of so-called "millionaire mind" traits, and then tracks financial success over at least 25 years, if not more.

Then I'll be impressed.

These "Millionaire in the making" titles don't even include a question mark after that phrase -- the articles act like future wealth is a fait accompli.

I'm not saying that there aren't good things to be learned about the value of frugality and financial planning, I just think that there's a lot of financial failure and financial mediocrity that doesn't get tallied up, because it's rare that the stories of the losers are told. The stories about the winners get all of the attention.

How do you succeed in business? Well, ask someone successful, of course! The fact that a hundred other people might have tried the same things to get rich and failed won't come out, however. Why ask losers how to do anything?

These kinds of articles seem designed to appeal to the "luck is for losers" point of view. Something to make people are financially successful, or plan to be, feel good that wealth is a sign that they've be smart and frugal and daring enough in all the right ways, while anyone else who doesn't get the brass ring just didn't try hard enough.

Of course, "millionaire," meaning simply someone with a net worth of one million dollars or more, isn't a very impressive standard of huge financial success these. I'm well on my way to having more than that put away for retirement at age 65.

[Eugene]

The easiest way to become a millionaire is to get a million dollars.

[giant]

Originally posted by shetline

I'm not saying that there aren't good things to be learned about the value of frugality and financial planning, I just think that there's a lot of financial failure and financial mediocrity that doesn't get tallied up, because it's rare that the stories of the losers are told. The stories about the winners get all of the attention.

Very good point

These kinds of articles seem designed to appeal to the "luck is for losers" point of view. Something to make people are financially successful, or plan to be, feel good that wealth is a sign that they've be smart and frugal and daring enough in all the right ways, while anyone else who doesn't get the brass ring just didn't try hard enough.

How true. You know, I know quite a few people that have fallen ass-backwards into 'success,' which seems to mean being stupid enough to not think about the repercussions of actions. Somehow the US is set up to help these people succeed. Go figure.

The whole idea of 'self-made' is BS. It's also a sign of new money (read: semi-trash that want to play dress-up). And I never, ever hear it coming from loving people.

My philosophy is to buy smart, no matter what. What's the use of owning something without knowing anything about it anyway? Why would I buy a powerbook for full price if I can get it for ~$700 cheaper (as I did with my last two), even on the day it's released?


Of course, "millionaire," meaning simply someone with a net worth of one million dollars or more, isn't a very impressive standard of huge financial success these. I'm well on my way to having more than that put away for retirement at age 65.


I would say $1,000,000 should be the minimum.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by shetline
Show me something like this that starts with an objective profile of so-called "millionaire mind" traits, and then tracks financial success over at least 25 years, if not more.

Then I'll be impressed.

These "Millionaire in the making" titles don't even include a question mark after that phrase -- the articles act like future wealth is a fait accompli.

I'm not saying that there aren't good things to be learned about the value of frugality and financial planning, I just think that there's a lot of financial failure and financial mediocrity that doesn't get tallied up, because it's rare that the stories of the losers are told. The stories about the winners get all of the attention.

How do you succeed in business? Well, ask someone successful, of course! The fact that a hundred other people might have tried the same things to get rich and failed won't come out, however. Why ask losers how to do anything?

These kinds of articles seem designed to appeal to the "luck is for losers" point of view. Something to make people are financially successful, or plan to be, feel good that wealth is a sign that they've be smart and frugal and daring enough in all the right ways, while anyone else who doesn't get the brass ring just didn't try hard enough.

Of course, "millionaire," meaning simply someone with a net worth of one million dollars or more, isn't a very impressive standard of huge financial success these. I'm well on my way to having more than that put away for retirement at age 65.

Well I would think that 25 years from now they wouldn't be a millionaire in the making any more. By they they would probably be a millionaire. Kinda loses the point of the title then right?:lol:

Future wealth isn't a fait accompli, but the alternative to trying with some proven strategies is what? Piss in the wind and see if your shins stink?

The financial failure and financial mediocrity doesn't get tallied up? Couldn't it be that knowlege and application aren't the same thing? Plenty of people can claim to know how to get rich, but they don't really know how or they don't have the desire to truly lay it on the line and risk failure to become a success.

How many Monday morning quarterbacks know what plays the coach and players should have called and run? It takes a lot more than an opinion to become well off. These folks have put the principles in which they believe into action. Other may talk the talk, but not walk the walk. It doesn't mean they are "losers" as you claim, but it doesn't mean they will be guaranteed success either.

As for whether a business can be successful or not. It really isn't that hard to be successful in business. There are just plenty of folks who commit halfway to things. We watch plenty of folks who are immigrants come in and begin running a business with lot of success. Likewise success can simply be learning from failure. There are successful business people who have had several failures. However they learned from them and become successful business people. So don't just ask the successful, ask those who failed and then succeeded.

As for luck being for losers. Haven't you ever met someone who managed the same amount of success even when the settings and variables have changed? It is easiest to spot this in say sports, but it is true in business and other aspects of life. I'm not found of sports analogies but look at Bill Parcells for example. He has turned his team into a contender whereever he has coached. What he doesn't isn't the luck of the draw. It is true for finances as well.

Nick

[trumptman]

Originally posted by giant
How true. You know, I know quite a few people that have fallen ass-backwards into 'success,' which seems to mean being stupid enough to not think about the repercussions of actions. Somehow the US is set up to help these people succeed. Go figure.

The whole idea of 'self-made' is BS.

What you show is just that you don't have to be the best and the brightest to become financially well off. Instead of complaining about it you should be thankful since it still means you have a financial shot.:lol:

Success doesn't mean you have to be the brightest. Application is very different from knowlege at times. Plenty of people know for example that you have to (simplistically) basically eat less and do more to become fit and maintain your weight. However very few people seem to apply it.

Nick

[Splinemodel]

This is exactly the kind of thing I don't like. I don't like these 1950's era family tie-ins. The children have little to do with the financial propulsion of these people. Why is the focus always on normalcy? The ones who really end up wealthy are the people who go out there and put off raising an ugly family for a few years so that they can focus 100% of their time on generating wealth and taking risks.

To me, this is a pilgrimage. And don't confuse wealth with money. . . wealth is worth. Money is a free-market evaluation of worth.

[giant]

Originally posted by trumptman
What you show is just that you don't have to be the best and the brightest to become financially well off. Instead of complaining about it you should be thankful since it still means you have a financial shot.

Success doesn't mean you have to be the brightest. Application is very different from knowlege at times. Plenty of people know for example that you have to (simplistically) basically eat less and do more to become fit and maintain your weight. However very few people seem to apply it.

Nick

You seem to have missed my point. Ironic, isn't it?

[trumptman]

Originally posted by giant
You seem to have missed my point. Ironic, isn't it?

You missed my sarcasm. I said you should be greatful that you don't have to be the brightest because it still gives you a shot.

:lol:

Nick

[giant]

Originally posted by trumptman
You missed my sarcasm. I said you should be greatful that you don't have to be the brightest because it still gives you a shot.


Oh really? Is that what you said? Why not repeat it a couple more times?

You still don't get it, do you?

Oh, the irony. Not even just on one thing, either. Keep it coming. You apparently need some way to feel like a big shot.

[shetline]

Originally posted by trumptman
The financial failure and financial mediocrity doesn't get tallied up? Couldn't it be that knowlege and application aren't the same thing?
So the knowledge of how to achieve financial success is unquestionable, and all failures to do so can be written off to not applying the knowledge correctly or with sufficient commitment?

Plenty of people can claim to know how to get rich, but they don't really know how or they don't have the desire to truly lay it on the line and risk failure to become a success.

Observer your own words risk failure. A risk is not a risk unless it can really happen. Obviously people fail. And no, not everyone will have the time left in their lives or resources to get back up and try, try again. Or maybe they will try again and again, yet still fail out of sheer bad luck, not because they didn't "apply the knowledge" the right way.

Other may talk the talk, but not walk the walk. It doesn't mean they are "losers" as you claim, but it doesn't mean they will be guaranteed success either.

I'm not questioning the notion that both knowledge and commitment are generally necessary for success. I'm questioning the way it's treated almost as an Article of Faith that knowledge together with commitment are sufficient, and that things like who you know and sheer luck don't factor in quite a bit.

So don't just ask the successful, ask those who failed and then succeeded.

But to know how good any particular advice for getting rich is, you can't just ask those who succeed, and those who fail, but then succeed, but you have to ask those who fail, and then fail, and then fail again and never succeed. It's a very biased measure of the value of the advice if all ultimate cases of failure are automatically ruled out as cases where the given advice was "obviously not applied correctly or with sufficient commitment."

If you automatically rule out all stories that don't ultimately end in success from your survey of how well recommended techniques for business success work, you'll never really know how well the techniques work.

As for luck being for losers.... I'm not found of sports analogies but look at Bill Parcells for example. He has turned his team into a contender whereever he has coached. What he doesn't isn't the luck of the draw. It is true for finances as well.

Let's say that even with a great deal of coaching talent, the odds of creating a winning team are about 25%. The odds of doing this with four teams becomes one of 256. There could be plenty of people out there with the same degree of coaching talent, but by chance only one coach out of 256 will succeed four times in a row. That one-out-of-256 guy will be the one who gets the press. And everyone will be certain that it's all due to talent, not luck.

I'm not saying that Bill Parcells isn't a great coach, or even that he isn't especially great. What I am saying is the there is a Mythology of Success that hates to even stop and consider the element of chance, and that thrives on enumerating successes and ignoring failures.

The negative side of this Mythology of Success is that those who do succeed often use it to justify their positions, and to categorically classify those who do not succeed to the same degree as people who haven't worked as hard or as smart or with as much commitment. "You think my wealth isn't fair? Well, I got what I deserved, and you got what you deserved, so shut up and stop complaining."

[giant]

This whole idea of 'success' is such a joke. What does it mean? It can't mean money. Is it a certain kind of job? So, if you are a real estate investor, are you more or less successful than a airline pilot with more money? How about a professor? What about an accountant? What if they have less money? What if they have a ton more money, but a smaller house and a civic instead of two mercedes? What if they have less money, but a house in Costa Rica they spend half the year in? What about more money, better 'stuff' but haven't been able to take a vacation in four years.

What exactly is this 'success' thing?

It seems to me that in the real world it doesn't exists.

'Success' (and by extension, the idea of a 'self-made man' and, by extension, trumptman's online persona) only exists in the minds of idiots that think money and/or property serves anything other than a purely utilitarian purpose.

And trumptman, don't give us this garbage about you being so frugal. You spend far too much time talking about your bitty piggy bank. Among all but the most crude, talking about personal worth is considered bad form.

And shetline is making some important points. It's actually some of the most insightful stuff we've seen here on AO.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by giant
This whole idea of 'success' is such a joke. What does it mean? It can't mean money. Is it a certain kind of job? So, if you are a real estate investor, are you more or less successful than a airline pilot with more money? How about a professor? What about an accountant? What if they have less money? What if they have a ton more money, but a smaller house and a civic instead of two mercedes? What if they have less money, but a house in Costa Rica they spend half the year in? What about more money, better 'stuff' but haven't been able to take a vacation in four years.

What exactly is this 'success' thing?

It seems to me that in the real world it doesn't exists.

'Success' (and by extension, the idea of a 'self-made man' and, by extension, trumptman's online persona) only exists in the minds of idiots that think money and/or property serves anything other than a purely utilitarian purpose.

And trumptman, don't give us this garbage about you being so frugal. You spend far too much time talking about your bitty piggy bank. Among all but the most crude, talking about personal worth is considered bad form.

And shetline is making some important points. It's actually some of the most insightful stuff we've seen here on AO.

Pick your nose instead of picking and whining about everyones posts. Then get a life.

Nick

[trumptman]

Originally posted by shetline
So the knowledge of how to achieve financial success is unquestionable, and all failures to do so can be written off to not applying the knowledge correctly or with sufficient commitment?


Sufficient commitment is the trait to which I would assign the most value. I have met very few persistent people in my life. Even when seeking wealth most people seem to do nothing but ride fads be it a stock or whatever. There are different ways to achieve success in everything, but likely there are some core values related to almost all of them.

Observer your own words risk failure. A risk is not a risk unless it can really happen. Obviously people fail. And no, not everyone will have the time left in their lives or resources to get back up and try, try again. Or maybe they will try again and again, yet still fail out of sheer bad luck, not because they didn't "apply the knowledge" the right way.

Bad luck? You make your luck in this world. Sure someone could fail against all odds, repeatedly, for their entire lives. But if you never gained any success from all those failures did you really learn and apply any new knowledge?

Failure brings with it the opportunity to grow and learn so that you don't repeat the process. If you just go on repeating the failing process, then you didn't really learn anything by failing.

I'm not questioning the notion that both knowledge and commitment are generally necessary for success. I'm questioning the way it's treated almost as an Article of Faith that knowledge together with commitment are sufficient, and that things like who you know and sheer luck don't factor in quite a bit.

Sure those factors (luck and who you know) can figure into success in some areas. I would say this is especially true in entertainment type fields where in actuality someone isn't necessarily a better singer, better looking or a better actor, dancer, etc. than someone else. It literally comes down to a lottery there. However I wasn't posting examples of that nature. I wasn't saying "Gee that Britney Spears is just such a better singer and so much more driven than anyone else."

That would be nonsense. If any industry relies on "luck" on top of talent it would be entertainment.

But to know how good any particular advice for getting rich is, you can't just ask those who succeed, and those who fail, but then succeed, but you have to ask those who fail, and then fail, and then fail again and never succeed. It's a very biased measure of the value of the advice if all ultimate cases of failure are automatically ruled out as cases where the given advice was "obviously not applied correctly or with sufficient commitment."

If you automatically rule out all stories that don't ultimately end in success from your survey of how well recommended techniques for business success work, you'll never really know how well the techniques work.

I do believe you can learn something from those who have ultimately failed. However I haven't encountered examples of where someone did everything right and then just ended up as failures. Since you claim these stories are ignored why don't you post some or link to some.

Let's say that even with a great deal of coaching talent, the odds of creating a winning team are about 25%. The odds of doing this with four teams becomes one of 256. There could be plenty of people out there with the same degree of coaching talent, but by chance only one coach out of 256 will succeed four times in a row. That one-out-of-256 guy will be the one who gets the press. And everyone will be certain that it's all due to talent, not luck.

Let me give you a hypothetical and then prove a point in reality with it. Oh sorry....

There are coaches who have never produced winning teams. Likewise your odds would have to be even worse than you claim because someone would be much less likely to hire someone who has failed repeatedly everywhere they went. You give everyone even odds regardless of success or failure. That isn't the case in real life where success and failure both have costs that are not equivalent.

Take the sports team examples since we are on that. Teams that do badly get to draft first. It is hoped that since they get first choice of talent they will improve. However there are teams that no matter how many first choice draft picks they have had, players they have traded for, etc. Well above the odds of luck, then end up on the losing end.

There are values and work that lead to results, not just the luck of the draw. Perhaps there were 4 other Michael Jordans who blew out there knees for example and couldn't play NBA basketball. However their drive and competitiveness if applied outside of basketball could have led to success in other fields.

I'm not saying that Bill Parcells isn't a great coach, or even that he isn't especially great. What I am saying is the there is a Mythology of Success that hates to even stop and consider the element of chance, and that thrives on enumerating successes and ignoring failures.

The negative side of this Mythology of Success is that those who do succeed often use it the justify their positions, and to categorically classify those who do not succeed to the same degree as people who haven't worked as hard or as smart or with as much commitment. "You think my wealth isn't fair? Well, I got what I deserved, and you got what you deserved, so shut up and stop complaining."

I don't think it ignores failures. I think it is just realized that you must persist even in the face of failure.

I don't think the negative side necessarily thinks others are not as smart or not hard working. However those traits alone don't create wealth and success. One of the smartest guys I know never went anywhere in a job. He had a desire to be right so often, he would pick fights with all his co-workers until he was fired at job after job. He had enough college credits for probably about 3 degrees yet was working at CompUSA for minimum wage and arguing with people about what photo printer they should buy like their lives depended on it.

I have always liked this quote by Calvin Coolidge. It sums up what I think well.

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

Nick

[giant]

Originally posted by trumptman
Pick your nose instead of picking and whining about everyones posts.


:lol:

You really are having a hard time using these 5th grade insults.

Someone needs to tell you trumptman: you ain't got that much cash. And you aren't that smart with it.

You know, I studied finance at Northwestern a few years back. I'm more than comfortable financially. I'm in a phase where I don't make much money (library, because I am a bibliophile and information addict), but if you wanted my household income you would still have to multiply yours by whole numbers. I don't talk about it. Why? Because no one ****ing cares and it doesn't matter at all. It's also rude and crude. Talking about personal worth is the mark of someone who is terribly insecure and weak. Money is not that important. It's sad you need someone to tell you that.

Your posts were interesting when there were few of them and they were informative. Now, it's just static.

You think you are all wheeling and dealing and making smart decisions and being a big-shot. That's totally understandable that you like to have your fun that way and it makes you feel good, but you are fooling yourself if you think you can lay that over everyone you meet and judge them accordingly. Your little ventures sure haven't gone that far, so you are hardly an expert. You also appear to only have 1 'job' and some single family homes. Not even commercial property. But it wouldn't matter if you didn't troll around here pretending you were king midas. In fact, your financial situation wouldn't matter at all if you were nice about it and didn't try to use it as a way to elevate your own self-image above everyone else.

The fact is that money is there to help you buy the things you need to live. That's just the way the world works right now. While we all should take some care with our finances, money is not something that should be the deciding factor in everything.

I have much more respect for someone who is willing to spend their entire savings on something important to them (helping a sick loved one, moving to the Himalayas) than someone who boxes himself in and hordes his money for some imaginary future.

You talk about 'success' and 'failure,' but those things mean nothing in the real world. It's an ideal with no relationship to reality. As I pointed out before:

This whole idea of 'success' is such a joke. What does it mean? It can't mean money. Is it a certain kind of job? So, if you are a real estate investor, are you more or less successful than a airline pilot with more money? How about a professor? What about an accountant? What if they have less money? What if they have a ton more money, but a smaller house and a civic instead of two mercedes? What if they have less money, but a house in Costa Rica they spend half the year in? What about more money, better 'stuff' but haven't been able to take a vacation in four years.

You can keep on living in your ideologue make-believe world, but it's people like you that make the stupidest mistakes. The saddest part is that you don't realize it until it's too late.

BTW: how much do you donate? You know, you don't make your living in a vacuum, and there are people, animals and organizations that could use it. 'Giving back' actually has an idea behind it.

[stupider...likeafox]

Originally posted by giant
And shetline is making some important points. It's actually some of the most insightful stuff we've seen here on AO.

I just wanted to agree with this before the thread gets locked.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by Eugene
The easiest way to become a millionaire is to get a million dollars.

:lol:

The easiest way to become a millionaire is to be the son (or the daughter) of a millionaire. There is plenty of examples around the world ;)

There is no secret reciepes to become millionaire. If that was that simple the whole world will be filled with millionnaires. I am amazed about the nubmer of books dealing with how becoming millionaires. Perhaps the secret is to fool some losers ... :p

Trumptman : sure there is common values sharing by people who succeed at least in making money. But it's not sufficiant and not always right.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by giant
:lol:

You really are having a hard time using these 5th grade insults.

Someone needs to tell you trumptman: you ain't got that much cash. And you aren't that smart with it.

You know, I studied finance at Northwestern a few years back. I'm more than comfortable financially. I'm in a phase where I don't make much money (library, because I am a bibliophile and information addict), but if you wanted my household income you would still have to multiply yours by whole numbers. I don't talk about it. Why? Because no one ****ing cares and it doesn't matter at all. It's also rude and crude. Talking about personal worth is the mark of someone who is terribly insecure and weak. Money is not that important. It's sad you need someone to tell you that.

Your posts were interesting when there were few of them and they were informative. Now, it's just static.


Well you know when you insult someone, you have to consider whether they will understand it. Hence 5th grade level for you is about right.;)

Someone needs to put me in my place, and I suppose that someone is you.:lol: I'll tell you what giant. I'll give you the world's biggest apology if you can find anywhere on this forum where I have posted my net worth. It isn't here because I haven't bragged about it. I have mentioned items relating to personal finances, and I have even mentioned in threads that people DON'T have to disclose personal financial information to discuss finances. What is humorous is I have disclosed financial information in manner much like yourself with just inferrential information. You have drawn the conclusions from that information and declared it crude to talk about it. So go dig out that bragging giant, until then how do you know how much cash I do or do not have to be smart with?:lol:

Then you get into household income. You boast that yours is multiples of mine yet not generated by you. We would then have to assume you have a spouse bringing home wads of cash while you work at a library. You declare that money is not all that important. I think that is sort of the point of my posts idiot boy. I do what I do on a teacher's salary. Do you think teachers have some incredible love of money? However people often make it an OR question. I can do what I want OR I can have lots of money. It doesn't have to be that way. You don't have to sell yourself out, never see your children, and slave away for ungodly hours in order to acquire a high net worth.

I post articles that reflect that not because I wish to boast about what I make or own, but because I get tired of teaching the children of parents who have two new car payments, a jumbo mortgage, a home equity line of credit to pay off their previous credit card purchases and a whole new round of credit card bill rung up. They do all this and then send their children off to school when they are sick because no one can stay home. They have busy weekends yet no time to help with homework. Exotic vacations yet can't read with their children at bedtime or talk with them at mealtimes.

Amazingly enough they think they have secured a financial future for their children when in reality they have squandered their child's education and their own earnings.

The families I posted do not necessarily have huge incomes. That is part of why I posted them.(3 or the 4 were under $100,000) If anything I don't consider income to an indicator of net worth. Income is like a snapshot when life is a movie. Do you think if I only treasured income or even money I would let my wife stay home and cut our income(from jobs) in half?

I post about finances because to do a lot with a little, you have to make fewer financial mistakes. We would not be buying a couple houses a year if we were buying brand new SUV's with DVD's on one salary that happens to be a teacher's salary.

Lastly you constantly complain about my posts and yet you ALWAY reply to them. The board even has an ignore feature. You don't even have to see them let along read them and reply to them. Please stop complaining about the pain of my posts that you inflict on yourself.:lol: People will think you a masochist.:p

Nick

[trumptman]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
:lol:

The easiest way to become a millionaire is to be the son (or the daughter) of a millionaire. There is plenty of examples around the world ;)

There is no secret reciepes to become millionaire. If that was that simple the whole world will be filled with millionnaires. I am amazed about the nubmer of books dealing with how becoming millionaires. Perhaps the secret is to fool some losers ... :p

Trumptman : sure there is common values sharing by people who succeed at least in making money. But it's not sufficiant and not always right.

Why is it not right as long as you are not exploiting people? The couples I posted did not appear to be making their money at the loss or harm of someone else.

Likewise even if it may not end up sufficient, someone is more likely to build an acquire wealth if they say, put money into their retirement accounts as opposed to say, spending more than they earn.

Nick

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by trumptman
Why is it not right as long as you are not exploiting people? The couples I posted did not appear to be making their money at the loss or harm of someone else.

Likewise even if it may not end up sufficient, someone is more likely to build an acquire wealth if they say, put money into their retirement accounts as opposed to say, spending more than they earn.

Nick

I did not speak of exploiting people, or harm people, i was just speaking of books with titles like "how to become a millionaire in ten lessons", " the shortest way of sucess in life" ... and so on.

Discussions tend to become too serious here on AO, especially a discussion where none of the posters seems to be personally implied ... :D

[trumptman]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
I did not speak of exploiting people, or harm people, i was just speaking of books with titles like "how to become a millionaire in ten lessons", " the shortest way of sucess in life" ... and so on.

Discussions tend to become too serious here on AO, especially a discussion where none of the posters seems to be personally implied ... :D

I would bet that we have a few millionaires on these forums. At a minimum we have a few folks will likely be millionaires someday.

Just makes sure that if those few happen to be giant or shetline they give all their money to you since it was nothing but blind luck or oppression of others that got them there.;)

Nick

[audiopollution]

Originally posted by trumptman
I would bet that we have a few millionaires on these forums. At a minimum we have a few folks will likely be millionaires someday.

Just makes sure that if those few happen to be giant or shetline they give all their money to you since it was nothing but blind luck or oppression of others that got them there.;)

Nick

I agree with much of what you have said, but you have to admit that luck does play a role (in varying amounts) in someones success.

Personally, I've had a rags to (somewhat) riches story, much of it precipitated by chance meetings with people who could make my plans happen, but I've worked my ass off to make those lucky encounters produce the results I wanted. I'm the first to admit that had it not been for that bit of luck I'd still be earning a low wage while dreaming of how to put my knowledge to work.

You seem to be well on your way to a comfortable life. If I recall correctly, your start in the world of real-estate was prompted by a sweetheart of a deal with someone you had met. Although you obviously possess the knowledge and drive to 'make it', you were given a bit of a helping hand by luck/circumstance.

Being in the right place at the right time can do so much more for ones options than pure knowledge. A happy marriage between the two is obviously the ideal.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by trumptman


Just makes sure that if those few happen to be giant or shetline they give all their money to you since it was nothing but blind luck or oppression of others that got them there.;)

Nick

Did i say that ?
No. I'll add that i may be a millionaire (if one million is sufficiant to become one), when i will be near the retirement. And i will not say it's because of luck or oppression.

I guess you assume that i am a sort of commie who think that you are millionnaire just by luck or oppression. Strange to assume that a surgeon who work in a private hospital (understand free lance), will have such idears on the subject. Or is my nationality sufficiant in itself to assume this point of vue ?

Perhaps i did not understand anything to your post due to my odd english : this is certainly the best explanation ... :p

[giant]

Originally posted by trumptman
I can do what I want OR I can have lots of money. It doesn't have to be that way. You don't have to sell yourself out, never see your children, and slave away for ungodly hours in order to acquire a high net worth.

You just don't get it do you? You have these huge ideology glasses on and can't see past them.

Let me make it simple for you: Everything you have said in this thread assumes that the world is intensely more simplistic than it is.

For the other part of what you are saying here, you apparently have had to slave away, and you still don't have very much money. You have 5 single family homes that you rent out, correct. It's likely you don't have those under a management company, as we often do here. Buying and maintaining those homes must be chore. You also have to study in order to know anything about finance.

As for my financial situation, you once again wrongly assessed the situation because you just simplify and then imagine, somehow thinking you can infer reality that way.

I'll just put it this way: my life and sources of income are more complex than you can deal with. I wouldn't even know where to start.

While you sit back and pat yourself on the back for what you think you know or have figured out, the real world is going by with greater complexity than you can ever imagine. What's the best way to be consistently wrong? Assume you can infer things you have zero information about.

You know what the best path to happiness with money is? Common put it perfectly: I make money, money doesn't make me. Do what you love, be a service to people and don't spend your money on useless crap. In today's world, it really is the one thing that is that simple.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
Did i say that ?
No. I'll add that i may be a millionaire (if one million is sufficiant to become one), when i will be near the retirement. And i will not say it's because of luck or oppression.

I guess you assume that i am a sort of commie who think that you are millionnaire just by luck or oppression. Strange to assume that a surgeon who work in a private hospital (understand free lance), will have such idears on the subject. Or is my nationality sufficiant in itself to assume this point of vue ?

Perhaps i did not understand anything to your post due to my odd english : this is certainly the best explanation ... :p

Naw Doc, I was just having some fun. I said that if the millionaires on the board happened to become giant and shetline, (as opposed to you I and others) that they should give away all their money since their views, to varying degrees, attributed it to pretty much luck of the draw.

The only assumptions I make about you being French is that you could pick a better wine than I could at dinner.;)

Nick

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by giant


I'll just put it this way: my life and sources of income are more complex than you can deal with. I wouldn't even know where to start. In fact, most people I know are that way.


You know what the best path to happiness with money is? Common put it perfectly: I make money, money doesn't make me. Do what you love, be a service to people and don't spend your money on useless crap. In today's world, it really is the one thing that is that simple.

I know where your income come from : Oil.

How did i come to this brillant conclusion ? It's quite simple : Giant is the movie with Rock Hudson and James Dean dealing with a rivaltry among oil producer. Elementary my dear Watson ! :lol:

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by trumptman


The only assumptions I make about you being French is that you could pick a better wine than I could at dinner.;)

Nick

I have heard that the Nappa valley offer some great wines also ;)

I have some few bottles, if you come near my home, we can have any of them at lunch or dinner :)

This suggestion is also avalaible for any members around here, except for Jonathan who is able to drink all my cave, according to people in the know :wow: :D

[trumptman]

Originally posted by audiopollution
I agree with much of what you have said, but you have to admit that luck does play a role (in varying amounts) in someones success.

Personally, I've had a rags to (somewhat) riches story, much of it precipitated by chance meetings with people who could make my plans happen, but I've worked my ass off to make those lucky encounters produce the results I wanted. I'm the first to admit that had it not been for that bit of luck I'd still be earning a low wage while dreaming of how to put my knowledge to work.

You seem to be well on your way to a comfortable life. If I recall correctly, your start in the world of real-estate was prompted by a sweetheart of a deal with someone you had met. Although you obviously possess the knowledge and drive to 'make it', you were given a bit of a helping hand by luck/circumstance.

Being in the right place at the right time can do so much more for ones options than pure knowledge. A happy marriage between the two is obviously the ideal.

I found an ad in the local free ad newspaper. I assumed a property for free as a result. The property soon badly flipped in price however. (It was worth less than the mortgage) It did so almost -$40,000. As a result I couldn't sell it and had to rent it out when I wanted to move. So out of desperation, before giving it to the bank, I bought a book on landlording. About 5 years later, and a total of eight years after I bought it, I sold it for $15,000 profit.

So I guess that would be luck by some definition.:\

Nick

[audiopollution]

Originally posted by trumptman
I found an ad in the local free ad newspaper. I assumed a property for free as a result. The property soon badly flipped in price however. (It was worth less than the mortgage) It did so almost -$40,000. As a result I couldn't sell it and had to rent it out when I wanted to move. So out of desperation, before giving it to the bank, I bought a book on landlording. About 5 years later, and a total of eight years after I bought it, I sold it for $15,000 profit.

So I guess that would be luck by some definition.:\

Nick

I didn't know about the market loss on the property. :\

I still contend that (good) luck does play a role in success. :)

[shetline]

Originally posted by trumptman
Sufficient commitment is the trait to which I would assign the most value. I have met very few persistent people in my life.
So... sufficient commitment is the most important key to success. And how can you tell whether or not someone gave sufficient commitment? Why, see if they've succeeded of course! Great advice, or meaningless tautology? You decide! :D

Bad luck? You make your luck in this world.

You might as well just have repeated the snide "Luck is for losers" line I attributed to this attitude before.

How much is life like chess, and how much is it like poker? How much, for that matter, is it like a lottery? Of course it's important to work hard and make wise decisions and to commit to the things you want to achieve. However, what makes you, or so many other people with the "you get what you deserve in life" attitude, so certain that chance plays so small a role next to everything else?

Sure someone could fail against all odds, repeatedly, for their entire lives. But if you never gained any success from all those failures did you really learn and apply any new knowledge?

Failure brings with it the opportunity to grow and learn so that you don't repeat the process. If you just go on repeating the failing process, then you didn't really learn anything by failing.

If you throw a pair of dice trying for snake eyes and fail, how do you "apply what you've learned from failure" to the next throw of the dice? The answer is you don't. There's nothing to learn that applies to the next time.

Not all of life is so random, but who's to say how much chance might contribute to failure at one business endeavor, and how little there might be that can be applied from one failure to help succeed at one's next attempt?

However I haven't encountered examples of where someone did everything right and then just ended up as failures.

I doubt most of the people who succeed at business do everything right. If someone doesn't succeed, you can always find something you think they did wrong to point to as a reason for failure. But how meaningful is that when people who succeed also make mistakes?

Since you claim these stories are ignored why don't you post some or link to some.

Let me give you a hypothetical and then prove a point in reality with it. Oh sorry....

You'd have to first provide object criteria for "traits for success" and for "degree of commitment" -- criteria that define those characteristics apart from the tautological definition that the traits are found where success is found.

My hypothetical situation was only to get you to think about how chance can play into life, yet be totally ignored when the stories of people's lives are told. But just because the messy, complicated nature of life makes it hard to pin down and isolate all of the variables doesn't mean that you can ignore the role chance plays.

I have always liked this quote by Calvin Coolidge. It sums up what I think well.

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

Not a bad quote... except when it veers into unnecessary and unverifiable overstatement with the word "omnipotent". I believe that kind of overstatement is often fed by a self-aggrandizing element in people who consider themselves successful, who wish to believe it is their own positive traits, not luck, that have put them where they are. And, as I said before, it allows the successful to dismiss those less fortunate than themselves as being less deserving.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by giant
You just don't get it do you? You have these huge ideology glasses on and can't see past them.

Let me make it simple for you: Everything you have said in this thread assumes that the world is intensely more simplistic than it is.

Things aren't always complex, especially making money. Perhaps the love of a woman is a complex issue, but adding value to something or getting a return from an investment really isn't that hard. Most people just don't get themselves into a position where they can even experiment and find out what sort of financial plans work for them.

Think of it like fitness. There lots of contention about how much of what to eat, how much cardio vs how much lifting, etc. What is fitness vs. premature wear on joints, etc. It is a pretty complex issue when you think about it. However that really only becomes true if you are the one reading about it on the couch. Getting the feedback from your own body helps you to distill that complexity down to what works for you pretty quickly.

For the other part of what you are saying here, you apparently have had to slave away, and you still don't have very much money. You have 5 single family homes that you rent out, correct. It's likely you don't have those under a management company, as we often do here. Buying and maintaining those homes must be chore. You also have to study in order to know anything about finance.

Don't forget the apartment building.;)

Landlording is pretty easy actually. I tell people that the biggest mistake people make with rentals is calling it property management. The property doesn't do anything. It is the people. Rentals are people management.

Being a teacher, I have just a little experience with people management. My houses don't require lots of work at all. I will admit they do when I first purchase them but then I make quite a bit of money in terms of equity for that week or so's work. My rents are deposited electronically. The bills are paid via the internet. I take about 2 calls a month on my cell phone. The renters all sign minimum one year leases and often renew for another year.

Rentals are passive income. If I had to do work to get it, I wouldn't be interested in it since I already have a job.

The studying... I read several books about fixing homes and managing rentals. I would put the total number of books at about seven and their total value at about $150.

As for not having much money, I see you couldn't find anywhere where I had "bragged" about my net worth. I suppose you enjoy claiming I am "poor" in an attempt to get my to declare what it must be. I'll give you a hint at it since a friend on these board told me it is rude to talk hard numbers.:lol: Let's just say I am worth more than any of the people in those articles I posted. So now perhaps you won't feel so bad as I slave away twice a month on my cell phone.:lol:

As for my financial situation, you once again wrongly assessed the situation because you just simplify and then imagine, somehow thinking you can infer reality that way.

I'll just put it this way: my life and sources of income are more complex than you can deal with. I wouldn't even know where to start.


So I won't deal with them then. I don't mind that I guessed wrong at your background. I assure you it was no more of a bad guess than what you took at mine. If you don't know where to start, then don't. No one has said you have to share anything or even post anything.

If you care to share then that is up to you. I have personally thought of forming an AI/AO investing club because I have wanted to get into stocks and have never owned any. If you are trading in futures, shorting stocks or some other issues I haven't dealt with then I'll be happy to listen and learn. Likewise if you want some info a what's a cosmetic fixer versus a condemnable money pit, I'm your man.

While you sit back and pat yourself on the back for what you think you know or have figured out, the real world is going by with greater complexity than you can ever imagine. What's the best way to be consistently wrong? Assume you can infer things you have zero information about.

Perhaps what you deal with is complex. Mine is quite simple. All people need a place to live. I provide them at slightly above fair market rents but with some nice extra amenities. Likewise real estate is limited. They can make more cars, more computers, and even build more houses, but they can't make more land. Likewise a few simple things can make people especially happy enough to pay a clear premium above the sum of the parts. Apple is a great example of this but in housing it can be things like ceiling fans, crown molding, updated flooring, clean, warm, white paint, etc.

For example in Real Estate they tease that the three most important factors in buying a house are location, location, and location. The locations in which I buy my homes are upper middle class and up. The neighbors actually thank me when I remove the eye sore it was from the neighborhood. I give them my cell phone number and THEY manage the homes for me since I promise them a good tenant. THEY will let me know if someone is throwing a party, not keeping up the lawn, etc.

However since I select good tenants they don't have to deal with even issues of that nature. Better yet I let them pick their neighbor by giving me referrals. It is far to simple and easy.

Pretty homes, good neighbors, good locations, simple stuff.

Sort of like taking a $.05 potato and making it a $1.29 bag of potato chips or french fries. (People should think about that when they consider why every restaurant lets you "supersize" your fries and drink. It is where they make the most money) It is like taking some water and adding some sugar, etc to it and calling it Coke.

You know what the best path to happiness with money is? Common put it perfectly: I make money, money doesn't make me. Do what you love, be a service to people and don't spend your money on useless crap. In today's world, it really is the one thing that is that simple.

Sounds like good advice and I think the couples I posted and myself follow it. I'm a teacher who happens to enjoy real estate and benefit from that. I get to spend time with other people's kids and my own pretty much all day every day. I only work 176 days a year and we enjoy traveling the rest of the time.

Honestly giant, do you think they articles I posted are that different from you advocated right there? From what I saw, most of them weren't in some rat race. They seemded to have their priorities pretty straight. I could see your point if I were posting about some internet IPO millionaire of something of that nature flashing some bling, bling and chasing after all the wrong things. I could understand it if I posted articles about folks who had a lot of material possessions, high paying jobs, but no investments or net worth. However I thought what I posted is right up the alley you just advocated.

Nick

[trumptman]

Originally posted by shetline
So... sufficient commitment is the most important key to success. And how can you tell whether or not someone gave sufficient commitment? Why, see if they've succeeded of course! Great advice, or meaningless tautology? You decide! :D

Bad luck? You make your luck in this world.

You might as well just have repeated the snide "Luck is for losers" line I attributed to this attitude before.

How much is life like chess, and how much is it like poker? How much, for that matter, is it like a lottery? Of course it's important to work hard and make wise decisions and to commit to the things you want to achieve. However, what makes you, or so many other people with the "you get what you deserve in life" attitude, so certain that chance plays so small a role next to everything else?

Sure someone could fail against all odds, repeatedly, for their entire lives. But if you never gained any success from all those failures did you really learn and apply any new knowledge?

Failure brings with it the opportunity to grow and learn so that you don't repeat the process. If you just go on repeating the failing process, then you didn't really learn anything by failing.

If you throw a pair of dice trying for snake eyes and fail, how do you "apply what you've learned from failure" to the next throw of the dice? The answer is you don't. There's nothing to learn that applies to the next time.

Not all of life is so random, but who's to say how much chance might contribute to failure at one business endeavor, and how little there might be that can be applied from one failure to help succeed at one's next attempt?

However I haven't encountered examples of where someone did everything right and then just ended up as failures.

I doubt most of the people who succeed at business do everything right. If someone doesn't succeed, you can always find something you think they did wrong to point to as a reason for failure. But how meaningful is that when people who succeed also make mistakes?

Since you claim these stories are ignored why don't you post some or link to some.

Let me give you a hypothetical and then prove a point in reality with it. Oh sorry....

You'd have to first provide object criteria for "traits for success" and for "degree of commitment" -- criteria that define those characteristics apart from the tautological definition that the traits are found where success is found.

My hypothetical situation was only to get you to think about how chance can play into life, yet be totally ignored when the stories of people's lives are told. But just because the messy, complicated nature of life makes it hard to pin down and isolate all of the variables doesn't mean that you can ignore the role chance plays.

I have always liked this quote by Calvin Coolidge. It sums up what I think well.

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

Not a bad quote... except when it veers into unnecessary and unverifiable overstatement with the word "omnipotent". I believe that kind of overstatement is often fed by a self-aggrandizing element in people who consider themselves successful, who wish to believe it is their own positive traits, not luck, that have put them where they are. And, as I said before, it allows the successful to dismiss those less fortunate than themselves as being less deserving.

Shet,

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I thought my posts were long. :lol: Also the way you reply makes it really hard to quote from ya.

I doubt I could change your worldview via a post in these forums. Your view is yours and you are welcome to it. Mine matches my experiences. Likewise chance can perhaps end a hard sought opportunity, but there is no opportunity if there is no effort. I could die or be mauled in a car accident tomorrow. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop striving today or that my successes were not earned.

Nick