FBI funding Hamas up to 1999

[segovius]

It seems that it has been officially revealed that the FBI were funding HAMAS (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20031006/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/fbi_hamas_money) as recently as 1998 and 99.

If anyone had said this before this admisison they would have been dismissed as a 'whacko conspiracy nut'. Even now the justification will be from a quote in the linked article:

the FBI was secretly funneling money to suspected Hamas figures to see if the militant group would use it for terrorist attacks, according to interviews and court documents.

My italics.

So, are they not then responsible for any attacks utilising that money ?

And if they are doing this kind of activity what else might they be doing of a similar nature ?

Is this or is this not a morally repugnant and unjustifiable activity that undermines any moral stance that the US (I don't say Bush because this is non-partisan) has in the WOT ?

This is not about Bush or Rep/Dem anymore - the security and goivernmental apparatus of the US are rotten to the core and SOMEONE needs to stand up and call them on it from ANYWHERE. All are in the same boat and anyone not working for the solution (or at least admitting the problem) is a party to it. Something needs shaking up....fast.

[Smircle]

Originally posted by segovius

And if they are doing this kind of activity what else might they be doing of a similar nature ?


Selling off biolab gear (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/10/06/gao.pentagon/index.html) from the Pentagon suitable for making bioweapons, maybe?
Clever trick to see who uses it to develop new nasty buggers :lol:

[segovius]

Originally posted by Smircle
Selling off biolab gear (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/10/06/gao.pentagon/index.html) from the Pentagon suitable for making bioweapons, maybe?
Clever trick to see who uses it to develop new nasty buggers :lol:

Hehe... Bush really is despearate for cash to bolster the economy isn't he ?

[El Pinguino]

So let me get this straight, FBI provides “economical aid” to a well known terrorist group, which in turn attacks Israel, then the States try and work out a deal with the Palestinians to stop the attacks?

Haven’t we seen this before, when CIA gave Bin Laden god know how much recourses to fight the REDS in Afghanistan, and then “Ben” felt it was necessary to return the favor by freeing up space in NY.

well i'm off to school, got two test today, :grumble: one of them is french :mad:

[Scott]

Maybe Israel will bomb the FBI building?

[Scott]

Originally posted by El Pinguino
...
Haven’t we seen this before, when CIA gave Bin Laden god know how much recourses to fight the REDS in Afghanistan, and then “Ben” felt it was necessary to return the favor by freeing up space in NY.

well i'm off to school, got two test today, :grumble: one of them is french :mad:

God here we go again. There's nothing to support the lie that the CIA funded bin Laden. Stop repeating that ignorant lie.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by El Pinguino


well i'm off to school, got two test today, :grumble: one of them is french :mad:

Toute mes condoléances :D

[Harald]

Originally posted by Scott
God here we go again. There's nothing to support the lie that the CIA funded bin Laden. Stop repeating that ignorant lie.

Hehehehe.

Like those other things you tried to out as lies (go on, call me on it so I can link to the thread), this one's a cracker.

You would have us believe that when the CIA funnelled shitloads of money to the Mujaheddin, none of it made it OBL, presumably because he was too smart, too well organised, too well known and respected amongst the Mujaheddin to really achieve the CIA's aims.

And (get this) -- your proof is that no-one's got a receipt for all that lovely *illegal international arms trading.*

[chu_bakka]

If you read the article... it was part of a STING operation... they were trying to track the money and find out which "charitable" organizations were funneling money to the militant groups.

Stupid... perhaps... but not sinister. It was a few thousand dollars.

[rageous]

Yes, read the article before you buy the spin seg out on it.

[segovius]

Originally posted by rageous
Yes, read the article before you buy the spin seg out on it.

I don't think it was me putting the spin. The whole article is spin by definition - like they're really gonna print an article that says 'yep, we did it - funded Hamas and they went around massacring people with the cash. We're to blame'. :no:

Nope. They got caught out (yet again) and this is merely more damage limitation. Got to love that "to see if the militant group would use it for terrorist attacks" ("Yes officer - I stabbed her repeatedly to see if there was a danger of Pinko Commie Subversives attacking our citizens", "Oh I see sir, that's allright then - good work, now on your way")

Actually, this is all getting totally Pythonesque. I'm starting to wonder of there's any circumstance the wingers would actually take as evidence that something stinks down home on the ranch. Jeez, the CIA don't even need a brainwashing program these days do they ? Or maybe they got one after all....;)

[chu_bakka]

Ummm... It was the FBI smarty pants... entirely different than the CIA.

FBI= Federal Law Enforcement
CIA= International Intelligence/Operations

The U.S. was funding the Taliban and Hussein for quite a while though. And Reagan did take part in a arms for hostages deal in the early 80's with Iran.

[segovius]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
Ummm... It was the FBI smarty pants... entirely different than the CIA.

FBI= Federal Law Enforcement
CIA= International Intelligence/Operations

The U.S. was funding the Taliban and Hussein for quite a while though. And Reagan did take part in a arms for hostages deal in the early 80's with Iran.

If that last was directed at me then thanks but I know....I read the article ;) You should check it out - v interesting.

The CIA line was a reference to reputed experiments in the 60's conducted by said organisation with the aim of producing a soporific quasi-lobotomised Stepfordesque populace that was suitably quiesed and receptive to any half-assed BS the govt trotted out (as opposed to the radicalised hotheads the 60's were noted for).

Looks like they succeeded.

[chu_bakka]

Yup. I believe everything the government tells me! Putz.


So what do you believe the motive was? I don't get it.
Must be the "flouride" in the water.

Hammas was going to commit more terrorist acts in Isreal... they still are... so trying to track the money was an attempt to findout who was connected to who.

I still think it was stupid. The FBI in general are pretty inept.

[segovius]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
Yup. I believe everything the government tells me! Putz.


So what do you believe the motive was? I don't get it.
Must be the "flouride" in the water.

Hammas was going to commit more terrorist acts in Isreal... they still are... so trying to track the money was an attempt to findout who was connected to who.

I still think it was stupid. The FBI in general are pretty inept.

Well, I don't care what the motive was - they got caught out, that;s all that matters to me.

But if I had to speculate I would say that as it is well known that Hamas was an Israeli creation (links available - ask before flaming, anyone) but that this Israeli involvement was alleged to have ceased when Hamas became a loose canon then there are grounds for thinking that Hamas are still on the payroll.

That they are un-Islamic (some would say anti-Islamic) is obvious to anyone with any interest or knowledge of the Muslim religion so imo there is a fair chance they are being used (wittingly or otherwise) as some sort of leveraging tool.

I have no doubt that Israel's objective is to take out Syria and Iran (a goal that they have succesfully sold to Bush) and perhaps now that Bush cannot storm through those two because of the political climate back, they have decided to 'go it alone'. They need a justification and Hamas serves that function.

I would say all out war in the ME is pretty much inevitable now. Israel is already taking the lead with the attack outside Damascus but Bush would have done it if Iraq had gone according to plan. None of it could have happened without Hamas - an orginisation founded by Israeli intel, funded by Israel up to the 80's and now we know also funded by the Feds in the 90's. You work it out.

[chu_bakka]

So the gist of this theory is...

The US, Isreal and various muslim charities and countries all fund Hammas to commit violence in Isreal in order to bring about a full scale war in the middle east to take down Syria and Iran?

Or they're just a tool of Isreal there to keep a Palestinian country from ever forming?

[segovius]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
So the gist of this theory is...

The US, Isreal and various muslim charities and countries all fund Hammas to commit violence in Isreal in order to bring about a full scale war in the middle east to take down Syria and Iran?

Or they're just a tool of Isreal there to keep a Palestinian country from ever forming?

Well the initial Israeli funding (actually founding) of Hamas was because certain extremist elements in Israeli intel found common cause with Palestinian radicals in that neither wished to see a Palestinian state in the terms that were then being discussed (for different reasons of course). This sort of collaboration is commonplace in inteligence operations.

It follows that if the organization being supported (in this case Hamas) is to be effective in the aims that the nominally opposed collaborationists are colluding on, then it must actually do something towards those aims. And being a terrorist outfit, that 'something' will be something violent. That's what happened - violence stalled the peace process and both sides were happy.

Now Hamas is (imo) being used in a different way. That doesn't mean it was created to be used that way buit the fact that it was created to be used in a specific way to serve the aims of the Israeli agenda suggests that it would be no big problem to do it again for a different manner.

[chu_bakka]

So what's the motive again for the FBI to get funds to Hammas? According to you I mean.

[BRussell]

Oh stop it. So the FBI is funding terrorists so they attack and kill Israelis so the Israelis can kill Arabs? Uh-huh.

I think you can disagree about whether this is a good idea or not, but clearly the intent is to track down terrorists by following the money, not to actually fund terrorists to further some devious agenda. It's a sting operation, chu_bakka is right.

[segovius]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
So what's the motive again for the FBI to get funds to Hammas? According to you I mean.

What does it matter ? I'm not a US citizen and don't mix much in US circles so I could only guess. I know the US unquestioningly supports Israel and that's enough of a hint for me. Agree it's difficult to see what the FBI would be doing though - normally that's a CIA sort of caper.

I've heard from people who know more than I do that there is some faction in the intel community that is sort of at war with Bush and are on a campaign of leaking damaging info (or disinfo). This probably doesn't fit that category but it's still probably not good. Maybe it's a leak from that source to counter the movement to with Syria. Something should - the US will take a hiding there. They are stretched already in Iraq and Saudi will get involved sooner or later, Iran too.

But all this is beside the point - does no one actually think this action (whatever the rational) is actually morally unacceptable or is anything ok now ?

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by BRussell
Oh stop it. So the FBI is funding terrorists so they attack and kill Israelis so the Israelis can kill Arabs? Uh-huh.

I think you can disagree about whether this is a good idea or not, but clearly the intent is to track down terrorists by following the money, not to actually fund terrorists to further some devious agenda. It's a sting operation, chu_bakka is right.

Well Segovius love the conspiracy theories. The more you will argue, the more he will be happy. :D

[rageous]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
The FBI in general are pretty inept.

This is absolutely not the case. While the FBI has had more than its fair share of public humiliations in the last decade, this in no way compares to all the great work they do on a daily basis.

My brother is in the FBI, working for the Violent Crimes Task Force. Each local department of the FBI has such a task force. These people deal with things like bank robberies, serial murderers and child abductions. The job of these task forces is to team up with local law enforecement to solve violent crimes. Every day these guys bust their asses and get things done.

I'm only speaking of one group, but I have knowledge of others. The powers that be in the upper echelon of the FBI have been quite inept for many years now. That is not in dispute. But to paint the FBI as a whole with such a broad brush is unfair. There is too much good that gets done but goes unreported to make a statement like that.

shit I almost forgot my step-dad is in the FBI too. *slaps forehead*. I'm sure people will take this to mean I'm sympathetic because I have family in the Bureau, but I hope you'll see that's not blurring my perspective.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
Well Segovius love the conspiracy theories. The more you will argue, the more he will be happy. :D

I'm never happy Powerdoc - you should know that ;)

At least I won't be till we have Total Revolution (wish I could put one of those tiny 'TM' signs there but I don't no how to do it). :D

[rageous]

Where is Tyler Durden when you need him, eh seg?

[giant]

Originally posted by Scott
God here we go again. There's nothing to support the lie that the CIA funded bin Laden. Stop repeating that ignorant lie.

:???:

A few threads ago I posted info showing that he had a contract for a tunnel project (yes, those tunnels) that was directly funded by the US.

[giant]

Originally posted by rageous
This is absolutely not the case. While the FBI has had more than its fair share of public humiliations in the last decade, this in no way compares to all the great work they do on a daily basis.

My brother is in the FBI, working for the Violent Crimes Task Force. Each local department of the FBI has such a task force. These people deal with things like bank robberies, serial murderers and child abductions. The job of these task forces is to team up with local law enforecement to solve violent crimes. Every day these guys bust their asses and get things done.

I'm only speaking of one group, but I have knowledge of others. The powers that be in the upper echelon of the FBI have been quite inept for many years now. That is not in dispute. But to paint the FBI as a whole with such a broad brush is unfair. There is too much good that gets done but goes unreported to make a statement like that.

shit I almost forgot my step-dad is in the FBI too. *slaps forehead*. I'm sure people will take this to mean I'm sympathetic because I have family in the Bureau, but I hope you'll see that's not blurring my perspective.

Good for them. But there's no avoiding the fact that the FBI has basically worked backwards on 9/11, is full of corruption (maybe you've missed all of the whistle-blowers, even though one was a time person of the year) and is headed by a guy who seems to survive just off of telling lies. That might not be that important to you, but it is to the rest of us.

And you are right in what you say, so don't go all ape-shit about how I'm disagreeing with you.

[chu_bakka]

Take the RED PILL Segovius!

Are you "the one'?

The FBI used cash... not weapons or explosives. If you believe the anti-drug ads... if you've bought pot then you've funded terrorists too.

[rageous]

Originally posted by giant
Good for them. But there's no avoiding the fact that the FBI has basically worked backwards on 9/11, is full of corruption (maybe you've missed all of the whistle-blowers, even though one was a time person of the year) and is headed by a guy who seems to survive just off of telling lies. That might not be that important to you, but it is to the rest of us.

And you are right in what you say, so don't go all ape-shit about how I'm disagreeing with you.

Those things are important to me too. My point was that while certain very public mistakes have been made by the FBI, it's unfair to label the entire organization as inept. The bureaucrats absolutely deserve the negative press. the higher ups in the FBI have been terrible of late.

The FBI is a federal police force. By their very nature, police forces are reactive and not proactive. Now the FBI does transcend the typical reactionary force to a certain extent, but for the most part it rings true.
Now being tasked to proactively pursue domestic counterterrorism is a very difficult task, and one that FBI agents were truthfully not trained well enough to execute properly. So this lack of training in intellegence has hurt their counterterrorism efforts and led to mistakes.

I don't mind that you disagree, but also it's only a half-truth to say the FBI has gone backwards since 9/11. Their counterterrorism efforts have fallen short because their leadership is weak and the agents weren't trained to handle this problem on such a large scale. But the vast majority of what the FBI does (with the exception of counterterrorism) is highly successful and has done a remarkable job.

[chu_bakka]

I think the head honchos i.e. politcal appointees at the FBI are inept... Louis Freeh (sp?) and the like... I think the agents do the best they can with what they are given. Should have been clearer.

[El Pinguino]

Just out of general curiosity, who here thinks that Bush is in power, as in he makes his own decisions and that they aren’t being made for him?

And what’s up with Iraq, since the "end" of the war, more soldier died then during the war Any one have any ideas why US attacked Iraq in the first place, and why did they keep the sanction up for so long, not allowing to import such thing as medicine, ambulances… termed dual use (as in; may be used to create WMD) resulting in the death of tenths of thousands of children.

ps. i flunked my french test, but aced my chem test

[segovius]

Originally posted by El Pinguino
ps. i flunked my french test, but aced my chem test

congratulations - don't worry about flunking the French, there's some round here who'll see it as a massive boost to your cred ;)

[rageous]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
I think the head honchos i.e. politcal appointees at the FBI are inept... Louis Freeh (sp?) and the like... I think the agents do the best they can with what they are given. Should have been clearer.

Ah, then we are in agreement. I had the chance to meet Mr. Freeh and talk briefly with him when my brother graduated from the academy. He was a pleasant conversation, although those moles on his face were really distracting.

But he was a terrible head of the FBI and Mueller is hardly an improvement.

[Smircle]

Originally posted by BRussell
Oh stop it. So the FBI is funding terrorists so they attack and kill Israelis so the Israelis can kill Arabs? Uh-huh.

I think you can disagree about whether this is a good idea or not, but clearly the intent is to track down terrorists by following the money, not to actually fund terrorists to further some devious agenda. It's a sting operation, chu_bakka is right.

I wonder how many kegs of dynamite, batteries, wires, switches one can buy with several thousand dollars down there?

If I was a relative of one of the suicide bomber victims or had some limb blown away, I'd be a wee bit hesitant to shrug if off so easily...

[rageous]

Originally posted by Smircle
I wonder how many kegs of dynamite, batteries, wires, switches one can buy with several thousand dollars down there?

If I was a relative of one of the suicide bomber victims or had some limb blown away, I'd be a wee bit hesitant to shrug if off so easily...

Then they need to take that up with their government, as they were made aware of the sting and did not object.

[boy_analog]

There's a certain symmetry in slamming the FBI and Motorola (the FH whipping boy), is there not? In each case it's clear enough that the organisation as a whole is being criticised, not the grassroots agents or engineers.

[Smircle]

Originally posted by rageous
Then they need to take that up with their government, as they were made aware of the sting and did not object.

Or take it to a US court and see if it constitutes state sponsored terrorism...

[El Pinguino]

In my opinion this isn’t the dumbest thing FBI done, I can’t think of a particular incident right now, but I’m certain there was something.

[bunge]

I was upset by this until I read that Israel knew about it in advance and approved of it. At that point I figured if Israel was OK with it, I should be too.

[Outsider]

I think the dumbest thing the FBI has ever done was not take Mulder seriously. And we all know how that turned out.

[El Pinguino]

Opps posted on the wrong Topic, sorry :embarrass


Well everybody has their bad days, when they just don’t look like them selves, had a rough night, didn’t get all of their vitamins, dehydrated, hung over... (for me that every day, I’m a lazy slob) I don’t know where I’m going with this… I lose my train of thought very easily. She rich, she got fake boobies, I know I’ll never get my hands on that, but I don’t care, if in real life she look bad, the I rather see her fake :lol:

P.S its leven tirty, and its time for me to start my homework

[Randycat99]

Originally posted by Outsider
I think the dumbest thing the FBI has ever done was not take Mulder seriously. And we all know how that turned out.

Damn, you beat me to the obiquitous wisecrack about Muldur and Scully which has to appear in a topic like this somewhere! :lol:

[Tulkas]

If you are going to follow a money trail within an organisation like Hamas, it was determined the best way would be to insert a small amount of money into the org and see where it goes. This is hardly a nefarious scheme to destabilize the ME. What are we talking about, a few thousand dollars? seg makes it sound like the US was funding a major portion of the operations of Hamas, when all we can really glean from the article is that a negligible amount of cash was provided to the group as bait, in order to try and trace the money flow.

If, even though the money was provided as an attempt to find a method to stop Hamas terrorism, the very attempt of such an operation means the US was up to no good, then we must assume that all the nations providing money directly to such groups, not to stop attacks but to encourage them, are truly evil countries. How many Muslim countries would that involve? Or is it only wrong when the US does it, as seg says, regardless of motive, simply because it's the US?

[Randycat99]

I wonder if ass-pennies would have been a safer choice? :)

[segovius]

Originally posted by bunge
I was upset by this until I read that Israel knew about it in advance and approved of it. At that point I figured if Israel was OK with it, I should be too.

Well seeing as you put it like that....I never thought of it that way. Looking at the Israeli policies of shooting kids with tanks, stealing land, building apartheid walls and running people (do they have a term for sub-people ?) over with bulldozers, I suppose there is a twisted logic there.

Can't work out what it is though...thank God.

Originally posted by Tulkas
If you are going to follow a money trail within an organisation like Hamas, it was determined the best way would be to insert a small amount of money into the org and see where it goes. This is hardly a nefarious scheme to destabilize the ME. What are we talking about, a few thousand dollars? seg makes it sound like the US was funding a major portion of the operations of Hamas, when all we can really glean from the article is that a negligible amount of cash was provided to the group as bait, in order to try and trace the money flow.

If, even though the money was provided as an attempt to find a method to stop Hamas terrorism, the very attempt of such an operation means the US was up to no good, then we must assume that all the nations providing money directly to such groups, not to stop attacks but to encourage them, are truly evil countries. How many Muslim countries would that involve? Or is it only wrong when the US does it, as seg says, regardless of motive, simply because it's the US?

Well we are proceeding form the supposition that all the Muslim countries are already involved. Because they're Muslim countries (Syria is secular btw but no matter). No need for any evidence or anything - we got past that with WMD didn't we ? In any event that was just to sell the public on the mass slaughter. Well, they're sold - no need for more evidence now eh ?

Similarly with Hamas - no one needs any evidence or 'money trails', that's just BS. If the Feds (and why them not the CIA ?) have an operative on the inside then why aren't they stopping the attacks ? Or is Hamas not responsible maybe ? Why not stop all this fannying and plkaying James Bond and just shut em down ? This 'evidence' stuff is crap - if they want to do something they just do it or fabricate the evidence or lie/ I think we can rule out this 'money trail' spin.

Your last point has some validity though Tulkas - whether it is wrong (or right) just because it is the US (or Israel) depends on which side of the fence you are on. It's a war for God's sake ! There is no fence sitting anymore: as someone said (can't remember who, sorry) 'If you're not for us you're against us'.

By that token I'm against.