Obligatory Matrix Revolutions SPOILER THREAD

[Moogs]

All right, so I just got back from el teatro and I have to say it was pretty damn good for the most part. A relief that it wasn't just "A Matrix within a Matrix" type deal, but that Neo really had the ability to exert some form of control or energy against the machines in the real world. That he ended up blindly going through the last stage was a very neat twist I think. That Trinity died (and then him) was also refreshing. I would have yakked if they both ended up kissing on a sunset or something.

Speaking of which, the very end was a little hokey but the ending itself was very good IMO. I was kind of hoping to see a "10 years later" scene with colonies of humans rebuilding among the rubble, maybe Morpheus and Naiobi have a kid... or something like that. Just to get a feel for what's next, and maybe end it with a sarcastic joke / laugh for the audience rather than the cheezy, huggy kissy sunrise with the Oracle and the little kid.


Also some ends left untied:

1A. Where the hell is the powerplant going to get its energy from, now that the architect indicates the remaining people who are "plugged in" are to be "freed, obviously"? Or, is that the "level of survival we're willing to accept" in the Reloaded scene with Neo? Maybe they need much less energy now that they don't have to run the Matrix for millions of human minds? Even so... definite loose end and an obvious one.

1B. What's to become of all the machinery / cities that undoubtedly have no "purpose" any longer?

2. Is this REALLY the last installment? I am suspecting not, though I have no idea where you go from here, while still making it interesting / somewhat unpredictable.

3. Did the Oracle have to "switch skins" because the Wachowski brothers had another defector (like Tank from the first movie)?

4. What did Smith mean when he replied "You should know, Mom" to the Oracle when she called him a bastard for (killing / raping?) that little girl? The whole mother / father of the Matrix thing (Oracle and Architect respectively)?


Overall I thought the dialogs and action mix were better in this one than Reloaded and the acting was pretty good too. Wish the Merovingian had remained in the movie longer than he did. Interesting character. The fight scenes were also very good though the last one I thought the "fighting while floating " / "zoom float" things were overdone / confusing. Smith's final dialog was good too, but I thought it would lead to why he is the way he is.

I guess it's as simple as him being the yang to Neo's yin / the negative integral anomoly? Anyway, good flick. I'm impressed more than I thought I'd be.

[BRussell]

This is what I meant my thread to be, but OK, I'll try not to have thread envy.
;)

So can you explain more about how Neo could affect the machines at the end of Reloaded? I thought the matrix-within-a-matrix was the only was to explain that - did he gain telekinetic abilities or something? :\

[Moogs]

Sorry B.

:)

I saw the other thread earlier today but I didn't see any spoilers in there so I didn't want to piss someone off who was about to go see it... usually the "spoiler thread" has the same in the title so I just figured that one was for general pre-viewing discussion.

As far as Neo, all I can figure is that, even though there had been five previous "Ones" in the generations before him (confirmed by the Oracle), he was still different from the rest. I don't know if he derived his powers from having a more open mind / strength from Trinity (or what) but he very clearly has a gift they did not have.

As we saw in many of the fight scenes in the last two movies, there are many people who appear to have super-human fighting abilities / are Smack-Fu Masters, etc. But Neo had an ability to sense the presence of the machines and hold up some kind of kinetic barrier to them. It's not like he was shooting lightning bolts from his hand. More like a force field of some sort that you can't see but it disrupts the machines.

Towards the end of Revolutions, he and Trinity took a hovercraft into the Machine city and even though he was physically blind, he could see everything in terms of its "energy siloutte". He saw what you could consider to be the "life source" of everything there -- humans, machines, etc. And as they flew towards the main objective, the machines unleashed a hellish firestorm of those little squid-bombs, electrical bolts, etc... and he basically deflected them all if the approached from the front of the ship.

[It was this same ability to see the energy behind a physical object (including people) that allowed him to defeat the physical incarnation of Agent Smith, who snuck aboard that same hovercraft before it left for the city. Smith incarnate thought Neo was blind because he had stuck a live wire against his face a moment before, but what he didn't realize was he saw Agent Smith as a sort of fiery figure (similar to how he saw the Oracle's body guard (forget his name) for the first time.

Speaking of which, that body guard played a big role in this movie. Was a good addition.]

That's about all the more it has sunk in to this point but it was pretty cool.

[Placebo]

Is there any "Matrix"-style fighting in the real world?

[kraig911]

sigh can't wait to go see it. I read your posts and I still understand...

[cooop]

Originally posted by Moogs
Did the Oracle have to "switch skins" because the Wachowski brothers had another defector (like Tank from the first movie)?
First off, the actor who played Tank did not defect. The Wachowskis simply didn't call him back for Reloaded/Revolutions and he later sued because of it.

Second, the actress who played the original Oracle (Gloria Foster) passed away shortly after finishing her scenes for Reloaded. The Wachowskis were forced to alter the story of Revolutions in order to explain the Oracle's new physical appearance.

Also, I didn't get the impression that the machines would disengage the Matrix. The humans' "victory" lied in the fact that they could settle Zion in peace without worrying about Sentinel intrusions; humans and machines could share the Earth instead of competing for it. I felt the Architect's statement referred to freeing those who are born inside the Matrix but reject it, much like Morpheus, Neo, Trinity, etc. Admittedly, I only saw it this morning but this was what I gathered.

[Moogs]

Placebo,

There was some fighting, but it wasn't the wire-fu stuff obviously because you can't defy gravity in the real world. However the body Agent Smith took over and Neo did have out on board a hover craft. Neo was blinded and beaten badly but ultimately won by smacking him down with krow bar of some kind.

cooop,

So you are thinking that the infants left in the fields will continue to power the machines... until... when? At some point the energy will run out. I took it to mean anyone hooked up, will be unhooked if possible. Maybe not.

Thanks for pointing out the issue about the actress who originally played the Oracle. I hadn't realized she passed on; wasn't trying to be insensitive. Also, I just mean by "defect" that I was aware there was some kind of dispute over money / the contuing role of Tank in the second movie....

One other thing I didn't know for sure: was the Architect the "voice" behind the God-like machine that spoke to Neo (a la Wizard of Oz), or not necessarily? And why do I have about 15 fewer posts than the last time I came in here?

More server issues? :)

[cooop]

The core did not allow Neo to infiltrate its system and destroy Smith just to turn right around and surrender itself to the humans. At the end of Revolutions, the Matrix remains just as it always had. The only thing that changed, in fact, was the machines' behavior towards humans. Because Neo sacrificed himself for the machines, the machines allowed the humans to keep Zion, thus preserving the free human race. This doesn't mean that the machines have given up their existance; the Matrix continues and with it human bondage. The difference, however, is that Zion and its inhabitants can flourish without fear of machine retaliation.

Again, this is just what I gathered.

[Moogs]

Ahhh. So they just keep reproducing humans as they always have, placing them in the Matrix, meanwhile the people of Zion will in fact, stay where they are... they just don't have to fear the machines terrorizing them any longer?

[cubs23]

I just got back from seeing it. I am pretty much confused. What was that little girl? The last exile is what she was referred to as. What is an exile? Also, there was alot more zion footage/real world footage than I expected. I thought the Merovingian's control of the subway / a world inbetween from the matrix and the real world was interesting. I loved the neo & agent smith fight scene at the end. The flying fighting was maybe a bit overdone, (much like the fight scenes in Reloaded), however, I think it will grow on me. My favorite part was Neo's punch through the raindrops in slow-mo. That was incredible. One last note, Neo was lying on the machine platform at the end like he was crucified. The resemblence to Jesus or whatever is striking through all 3 movies... Matrix = life / rising again....Reloaded = a continuation of "rising again"... and Revolutions = Sacrificing, a.k.a, the crucifiction. I am hoping someone explains the movie so I am not so confused.

[Randycat99]

Man, I lost track of what everything "means", after which I was just watching the movie simply as a sequence of cool scenes.

Was the Matrix world reset again at the end of the movie, or did everything just self-repair and everything proceeds where it left off as if nothing ever happenned?

I was warned of a dark ending as per the "Wachowski style", but I didn't think the ending was dark at all. So that was somewhat of a letdown. I was getting a bit bored through the first 3/4 of the movie. Seems like all the action came down in a torrential storm in the last 1/4. At that point, I can't really say this was a "must-see" movie, rather an "important to see movie" just so you can find out how the trilogy ends. As a 3rd sequel, I'd rate it as mediocre to average. The last 1/4 of the movie is still a visual spectacle, naturally. I liked the slo-mo punching Smith close-up scene.

Monica Belucci makes a splendid appearance with that monster rack. :p

I'd have to say the 2nd movie was the best in special effects and action. However, the 1st movie is still the best of the bunch for its story and overall production, IMO. The 3rd was just a quintessential installment to give closure.

[jfried]

Originally posted by Moogs
Ahhh. So they just keep reproducing humans as they always have, placing them in the Matrix, meanwhile the people of Zion will in fact, stay where they are... they just don't have to fear the machines terrorizing them any longer?

At the very end of the movie the oracle and the architect have a small talk. I can't remember the specific dialogue, but the oracle asks the architect if he will keep his promise and let those leave who want to. So from what I gather from that conversation, the machines will allow those leave who want to. It would probably be a disaster for those who don't even know about the matrix anyway (psychologically at least).

[rok]

Originally posted by Randycat99
Monica Belucci makes a splendid appearance with that monster rack.

someone told me she pulled a sharon stone (i.e. didn't have on underwear) in that scene from reloaded where she is sitting at the table. i didn't see the movie again, but was it true?

[facelike]

did anyone notice that the movie (especially the last fight scene) went just like a Japanese anime. It was like watching a really cool scene of dragon-ball Z.

And also, those who want to leave the matrix can, and people can leave and go to the surface if there is anything left for them.

and anyone who hasn't seen the animatrix, there an episode or two that shows when and why the machines took over in the first place, and how the actions of man caused it. you should watch it also and that will
tie in a couple loose questions.

late

sean

the movie was Great!!!!!

[Randycat99]

Originally posted by rok
someone told me she pulled a sharon stone (i.e. didn't have on underwear) in that scene from reloaded where she is sitting at the table. i didn't see the movie again, but was it true?

I don't recall a scene like that. The closest thing sounding like that is the zoom in to the random blonde dining at a table (who ate the cheesecake concocted by the Frenchman). Of course, it dissolved into Matrix-digital vision by time a beaver shot was imminent.

No great loss, IMO. Vag isn't exactly great to look at. It's all about the cleavage- the sweet, milky smooth cleavage... :embarrass

[rok]

Originally posted by facelike
It was like watching a really cool scene of dragon-ball Z.

you mean there are actually cool scenes of dragon-ball Z?

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by sok
someone told me she pulled a sharon stone (i.e. didn't have on underwear) in that scene from reloaded where she is sitting at the table. i didn't see the movie again, but was it true?


When she is guiding the crew down to get the key-master guy, you can see her pubes.



as for Revolutions...where do I begin?

I enjoyed it, face value, it was good. I thought that hte beginning seemed a little rushed, since it was just wham wham wham! answer answer answer; very direct. the merovingian stuff was great, I liked that whole upside down fight scene. it was a cheap gimmick, but something about it was very enjoyable.

The ending...I don't really know what to say...it was a 'safe' ending I think, fairly 'vanilla' and bland. I had heard many theories a lot more interesting, and I had come up with some of my own that I felt were more fulfilling.

I think my biggest problem right now with it is, that I went in expecting a DOOZY, or a really really elegant and creative ending.

It was a half-ending sort of, and I would not be surprised if the matrix continues in someway...more movies, books, animations, video games...etc.

I have already heard tell of the matrix online MMOG that is designed to extend the series and give more to it or whatever.

Laurence Fishbourne is on conan right now..I'm distracted...I'll write more later, I guess.... :p

[Gambit]

Man, I must say, the movie was fantastic, but I'm a bit saddened to know that Trinity and Neo are dead. I mean, I really can't see another way for it to end, especially once Trinity died, but still.

That's great that at the end, Neo realized fighting Smith was futile, so he gave himself up and allowed the Core to erase Smith from him, and ultimately, all of the Matrix inhabitants.

Oh, and someone asked about the little girl. The little girl was an obsolete program that was about be erased, but her "parents" (probably the programs that wrote her) made a deal with Merv (lol I cracked up when Trinity called him that) to allow her to remain in the Matrix. Given the conclusion, the little girl probably controlled the weather (remember when Smith asked Neo if he liked what he had done with the Matrix? He had copied himself over to the girl, that's why he was able to change the weather. Also, when he copied himself to the Oracle, he was able to see himself standing over Neo).

Anyway, good movie; kinda sad.

[cubs23]

I am back from watching it a second time. It seemed to go even faster than the first. I realized there are really only two cool scenes in the matrix, and only maybe three to four total. The one in the trainstation, the one at the Merovingian, the Oracle's house, and the Neo-Smith fight scene. The rest was in Zion. One other question, Were the Oracle and Architect in the matrix at the end? At first thought, I thought they weren't because of the surreal look of the buildings/landscape. However, upon further thinking, it can't be because the land was totally destroyed, and nothing was left (as seen in The first Matrix, and Animatrix). So, to what I am getting at... I think the matrix still exists, but the machines and humans will co-exist, and the machines and matrix world are now going to be slowly weeded out as more and more people become free.

[cubs23]

To what Gambit said: I was thinking that the core destroyed Smith as well, but I am not sure how that works. For one, how does destroying one destroy all the others. Also, that makes sense about the girl, and how she controlled weather, like you said, she asks the oracle if Neo would like what she did, and also, how it was Smith had himself copied into her. It makes sense why she ends up lying on the same pavement where the neo/smith fight scene took place. This is the type of thinking and explaining I like to have, Thanks:)

[Randycat99]

Maybe it is just like an antivirus program that runs on your computer? Once you have the "key", you can eradicate all instances of the virus by just scanning through the entire system.

[Gambit]

Yea, it seemed to me that once the code was imprinted unto Neo, the Core wiped it from Neo and then was able to wipe it from everybody Smith had copied himself to because they knew what they were looking for.

Yea, at the end, the Matrix still exists, but instead of trying to deal with the anomolies (that is, those that reject the Matrix), the Architect had decided to let those go. I can see the humans rebuilding Zion, spreading from there, and eventually the humans and the machines coexisting. That's what the machines wanted in the first place, and they even came up with a brilliant plan to coexist without taking over what the humans had created. It was the humans who rejected the plan and then scorched the skies. The machines retaliated by overpowering them and eventually creating the Matrix.

Still saddened by the end though there is great hope left for rebuilding both civilizations.

[cubs23]

One other thing, what was the deal with Smith calling the oracle mom? I assume the oracle called him a bastard because she knew he took over her body, but that doesn't explain smith calling her mom. I also assume then Serrif (oracle's bodyguard) was temporarily taken over by Smith too. I guess I totally don't understand how Neo sees things by their energy or whatever, so he should've been able to see trinity in the ship when she was lying on the ground then right? I am sure the more I think about it I will have more questions.

[Randycat99]

BTW, the notion of being an "ammo boy" for those robo-gunfighter thingies is just insane. What kinda nut is going to wait in a shelter and then run out in the middle of a combat zone pushing a cart of ammo when somebody calls in a "reload"? Yeah, it's about sheer bravery for a cause, but damn, if that is an unnecessarily perilous reality to keep your robots armed... :wow:

[Randycat99]

Originally posted by cubs23
I guess I totally don't understand how Neo sees things by their energy or whatever, so he should've been able to see trinity in the ship when she was lying on the ground then right? I am sure the more I think about it I will have more questions.

The only thing I come up with is that she had very little life left in her at that point, hence her energy signature would be faint to Neo. However, that is inconsistent with him not being aware that she was fatally wounded until she clarified her condition. [camera pulls back to reveal her impaled pretty heinously] I found that scene kind of humorous in a sick way. Like, "Oh gee, how did I miss that. You got 4 rods sticking through you." Anyways, if her energy signs were faint, Neo should have caught onto that right away that there was something seriously wrong when he finally located her. So yes, I do think you identified a juicy lapse in movie logic in that scene. :)

[BR]

Originally posted by Randycat99
The only thing I come up with is that she had very little life left in her at that point, hence her energy signature would be faint to Neo. However, that is inconsistent with him not being aware that she was fatally wounded until she clarified her condition. [camera pulls back to reveal her impaled pretty heinously] I found that scene kind of humorous in a sick way. Like, "Oh gee, how did I miss that. You got 4 rods sticking through you." Anyways, if her energy signs were faint, Neo should have caught onto that right away that there was something seriously wrong when he finally located her. So yes, I do think you identified a juicy lapse in movie logic in that scene. :)
There were no energy signs coming from her at all. She wasn't a machine.

[Randycat99]

I thought the premise was that he could see energy in general, whether it be life energy in organic beings or conventional energy in machines.

[Gambit]

No, he was only connected to the machines. That's how he was able to feel the squiddies and destroy them, and that's how he was able to see Smith in Bane.

[Smircle]

If I am not completely mistaken, Neo can see the blueish-green matrix *and* the energy (yellowish-golden). However, he can see the matrix only when he is inside the matrix (makes sense, huh? *g*).

The first time Trinity was dying they were both inside the matrix if I recall right (she promised him not to go inside but then later did after the demolition crew failed to shut down the power grid).

At the moment they visit machine city, they are outside the matrix and he cannot reanimate her.

[Smircle]

Neo and Smith are seemingly connected in a similar way as the architect and the oracle. Both are pairs of diametrically opposed characters but both are linked.

The relationship between Neo and Smith is less obvious as it seems in the beginning. After Neo gets shot and only moments later jumps through Smith (in Part 1), they share a connection where Neo gains some super-human capabilities (his Superman thing) and Smith gains some biological traits: as he reveals in part 3, he knows about the finiteness of life, he detaches from his control program (part 2, where he sends his earplug to Neo) and tries to win power for himself.

The oracle seems to be the chaotic counterpart to the very rational and unemotional architect. Where he devises a Matrix based on formulas, she is the one who introduces emotion (love) as the anomaly. With love comes suffering and this is what is needed to keep the humans inside the Matrix from commiting suicide like they did in the first, perfect Matrix.
Either the architect *and* the oracle are programs with a higher status (let's say kernel programs) or they are both humans, since in the last minutes of part 3, they obviously talk about changing the Matrix parameters and letting humans escape if they so wish. The relationship between those two and the machines is unclear to me - originally it was inferred the Matrix was invented by the machines.

As the little child is a program, one would assume the last scene to be part of the matrix. However, the weather clears up which would mean it is part of the real world (humans created the bad weather artificially to starve the solar-powered machines, whereas inside the matrix, the weather is mostly normal).

The subway station and trainman seemed artificial to me - it just did not make too much sense. Why is Neo trapped there and not just unconcious? If programs can interact with humans in the subway, the subway must be part of the Matrix, right?

[jfried]

Originally posted by Smircle
Neo and Smith are seemingly connected in a similar way as the architect and the oracle. Both are pairs of diametrically opposed characters but both are linked.

The relationship between Neo and Smith is less obvious as it seems in the beginning. After Neo gets shot and only moments later jumps through Smith (in Part 1), they share a connection where Neo gains some super-human capabilities (his Superman thing) and Smith gains some biological traits: as he reveals in part 3, he knows about the finiteness of life, he detaches from his control program (part 2, where he sends his earplug to Neo) and tries to win power for himself.

The oracle seems to be the chaotic counterpart to the very rational and unemotional architect. Where he devises a Matrix based on formulas, she is the one who introduces emotion (love) as the anomaly. With love comes suffering and this is what is needed to keep the humans inside the Matrix from commiting suicide like they did in the first, perfect Matrix.
Either the architect *and* the oracle are programs with a higher status (let's say kernel programs) or they are both humans, since in the last minutes of part 3, they obviously talk about changing the Matrix parameters and letting humans escape if they so wish. The relationship between those two and the machines is unclear to me - originally it was inferred the Matrix was invented by the machines.

As the little child is a program, one would assume the last scene to be part of the matrix. However, the weather clears up which would mean it is part of the real world (humans created the bad weather artificially to starve the solar-powered machines, whereas inside the matrix, the weather is mostly normal).

The subway station and trainman seemed artificial to me - it just did not make too much sense. Why is Neo trapped there and not just unconcious? If programs can interact with humans in the subway, the subway must be part of the Matrix, right?

Neo and Smith are opposites, as said in the movie. They are the results of an unbalanced equation in the matrix. As one gets stronger, the other does too. However, if one dies/ceases to exist the other must also cease to exist. So, in terms of only Neo (Smith not in the picture), the equation is unbalanced. If you add Smith into the equation, then it is theoretically balanced. So, if you thought enough about that equation in the beginning of the movie, you would know that in order for Smith to be defeated, Neo had to die. There was NO way around it.

The idea of the 5 previous versions of "The One" still makes sense. The reason this time was different is because Smith and Neo both grew so powerful. Neo did not return to the source. Although we can't really say what would have happened to Smith if he had.

The weather clearing up at the end could definately be the matrix. Neo and Smith were fighting in that huge rain storm remember? Smith seemed to have gained control of most of the matrix, so that could have been his doing.

They really left the movie open at the end though. Obviously the equation will someday become unbalanced again. But what then?

[Wrong Robot]

The trainman and subway station were not part of the matrix per se, but they were not part of the real world.

I guess they would be akin to the training programs that zionites use, it is just linked too the matrix directly.

[scottiB]

Originally posted by Smircle
As the little child is a program, one would assume the last scene to be part of the matrix. However, the weather clears up which would mean it is part of the real world (humans created the bad weather artificially to starve the solar-powered machines, whereas inside the matrix, the weather is mostly normal).

The subway station and trainman seemed artificial to me - it just did not make too much sense. Why is Neo trapped there and not just unconcious? If programs can interact with humans in the subway, the subway must be part of the Matrix, right?

The subway/trainman thing wasn't too well expressed. AFAICT, the station is outside the Matrix or a part of it where only the trainman can access or allow those exiles who are to leave(?).

The Matrix at the end has changed for the programs, too, I think. Exiles can be there freely and do as they wish (the little girl created super-sunrise). Before, the girl had to leave (or be deleted) because she had no purpose.

I dug the film all-in-all.

[Smircle]

Originally posted by jfried
Neo and Smith are opposites, as said in the movie. They are the results of an unbalanced equation in the matrix. As one gets stronger, the other does too. However, if one dies/ceases to exist the other must also cease to exist. So, in terms of only Neo (Smith not in the picture), the equation is unbalanced.

But Smith calls the Oracle "mother", so she had part in his creation.
And it is pretty clear from the architects' monologue that the oracle is *his* opposite, she is the source of the imbalance.

[Nordstrodamus]

TV SERIES!!!!

I really think the Warchowski bros have created such a rich universe with the matrix that it could spawn a good tv series.

First, you would think that they have several matrices running at the same time since they appearantly start from scratch from time to time. (Don't you think a computer intelligence would keep a backup:) ) And they suggested that the internal matrix timeline may go all the way back to the middle ages since werewolf and ghost programs were created. So I'm picturing several independent matrices at different stages of history.

As for Revolutions-

I agree that the ending suggested that only those people who have the "splinter in their minds" and instinctively want to escape the matrix will be let go. I don't think there would be enough resources to support all the people in the matrix if they were freed, so in some ways it is a symbiotic relationship.

Also, there would appear to be many advantages to being grown in the matrix as opposed to natural birth. Being able to learn anything via a brain upload would provide great advantages over the old fashioned way. I imagine some sort of cultural schizm would exist between the homegrown and matrixgrown humans. Yet more interesting material for a TV series.

[Gambit]

My take on all of this:


Originally posted by Smircle
Neo and Smith are seemingly connected in a similar way as the architect and the oracle. Both are pairs of diametrically opposed characters but both are linked.

For every superhero there are supervillains, as was pointed out in Unbreakable. Sherlock had his Moriarty, Superman had his Lex Luthor, Batman had his Joker, and Neo had his Smith. They shared a connection only because they were on the same path, just the opposite ends of the spectrum. This was coined as such: Neo is the anomoly, while Smith is the negative anomoly; they're both the remainders in an unbalanced equation. That's the link they share: one is trying to save the world while the other is trying to take it over. Ironically, it's Neo who has to save both the machines and the humans from a computer-created program.

In the first Matrix, Smith likened the humans to a virus, and at the end, it is Smith who became the virus, spreading everywhere, and taking over the Matrix.

Their only real link is that one is the bad guy and the other is the good guy. Again, you can't have good without bad and vice versa.

Almost like Anakin bringing balance to the Force: how he did this was to become father to Luke and then become the ultimate bad guy, opposite of Luke. Anakin and Luke then balanced out Force because they were on opposite ends of the same path.


Originally posted by Smircle
The relationship between Neo and Smith is less obvious as it seems in the beginning. After Neo gets shot and only moments later jumps through Smith (in Part 1), they share a connection where Neo gains some super-human capabilities (his Superman thing) and Smith gains some biological traits: as he reveals in part 3, he knows about the finiteness of life, he detaches from his control program (part 2, where he sends his earplug to Neo) and tries to win power for himself.


I'm not certain this is true. I'm pretty certain that the reason Neo is able to do what he could do is because he was just that good. Neo was the ultimate One, and while there had been previous Ones before him, they didn't have the power (possibly motivated by love) that Neo had. Even the Architect was surprised by Neo's abilities. (You could see this during their meeting at the end of Reloaded both in the Architect's reactions and in the reactions of the previous Ones before Neo on the screen.)

Even the Merv was surprised to see Neo as powerful as he was. No, Neo didn't get his powers from Smith, he was just THE One.

Smith, on the other hand, became a rogue program BECAUSE of Neo. That's what his speech in Reloaded was about: he was created to police the Matrix until Neo destroyed him. Afterwords, Smith couldn't let himself be deleted and gave himself his own agenda, his on purpose, and that was to kill Neo and take over the Matrix, setting himself to be opposite of Neo.

To a program (and everyone in the Matrix movies, really), purpose is everything: it's their reason for existing. Since Neo took that away from Smith, Smith made it his job to make sure he never became obsolete again.



Originally posted by Smircle
The oracle seems to be the chaotic counterpart to the very rational and unemotional architect. Where he devises a Matrix based on formulas, she is the one who introduces emotion (love) as the anomaly. With love comes suffering and this is what is needed to keep the humans inside the Matrix from commiting suicide like they did in the first, perfect Matrix.


I don't agree with this exactly, either. See, the Matrix is composed of checks and balances, and the only reason the first Matrix did not work is because this didn't exist in it: life was perfect in every way, which to the human psyche just doesn't compute. Knowing his limitations, the Architect, the CREATOR of the Matrix (he IS a program), knew he had to come up with his exact opposite, and the end result was the creation of the Oracle. It was she who figured out that human life couldn't fit into perfect equations, but inadvertantly realized that the machines could not live the way they were living forever. I'm pretty sure she was the first to realize that humans need machines and machines need humans, and not in the way the world was currently existing.


Originally posted by Smircle
Either the architect *and* the oracle are programs with a higher status (let's say kernel programs) or they are both humans, since in the last minutes of part 3, they obviously talk about changing the Matrix parameters and letting humans escape if they so wish. The relationship between those two and the machines is unclear to me - originally it was inferred the Matrix was invented by the machines.


The Oracle and Architect are not kernal programs; their presence in the Matrix are the physical embodiments of what they really are: the original programmers. Again, though they may have programmed the Matrix (which was coded by the Architect with input from the Oracle), it was necessary for their collaboration to make the Matrix work. Again, their connection is that they're the exact opposites on the same path.



Originally posted by Smircle
As the little child is a program, one would assume the last scene to be part of the matrix. However, the weather clears up which would mean it is part of the real world (humans created the bad weather artificially to starve the solar-powered machines, whereas inside the matrix, the weather is mostly normal).


The last scene WAS in the Matrix. The real-world is crumbling and falling apart, though I can't imagine it would be like that for TOO much longer. It really is a matter of time before the humans and machines come together to rebuild. Regardless, the last scene in the Matrix with the weather clearing up was the Matrix, probably the Architect, removing the changes Smith had made. Remember, Smith took over the ENTIRE Matrix. There was no one left that wasn't Smith, including the humans and the programs that governed the Matrix.

And again, that super-sunset was created by the little girl, who was a program written by two other programs and personified in that little girl, originally planned for deletion. Perhaps a better program was written to govern the weather; regardless, she was going to be deleted but the ones who programmed her (her "parents") had too deep a connection to allow that to happen.

Which brings me to my next point.....


Originally posted by Smircle
The subway station and trainman seemed artificial to me - it just did not make too much sense. Why is Neo trapped there and not just unconcious? If programs can interact with humans in the subway, the subway must be part of the Matrix, right?

The Subway IS part of the Matrix. it's a program the Merovingian wrote as a placeholder for programs that are not yet deleted. The best analogy is like Mac OS's Trash. You can put files in there, but unless you Empty the trash, the files will remain in limbo: useless, but not gone.



lol Any other questions?

Edited to clarify some points.

[nwhysee]

^^Awesome use of Mac lingo in that post^^

[alcimedes]

wow. the movie didn't suck.

i'm happy.

[Gambit]

I was just reading all of the scathing reviews by the critics towards Revolutions, and then it hit me: the third film was a hard one to swallow. It really is. I'm thinking it's a hard one to like because it doesn't give you all of the answers and the ending is very bitter-sweet.

Most people are used to movies gift-wrapped and handed to them, and I find most people can't stand most movies with open-endings or endings with some loose ends and unanswered questions.

Personally, that's why I liked Revolutions, because there really was no clean way to end it..... but that doesn't mean I didn't find the way it ended tough to take.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by Sam pitt
I was just reading all of the scathing reviews by the critics towards Revolutions, and then it hit me: the third film was a hard one to swallow. It really is. I'm thinking it's a hard one to like because it doesn't give you all of the answers and the ending is very bitter-sweet.

Most people are used to movies gift-wrapped and handed to them, and I find most people can't stand most movies with open-endings or endings with some loose ends and unanswered questions.

Personally, that's why I liked Revolutions, because there really was no clean way to end it..... but that doesn't mean I didn't find the way it ended tough to take.

Good point, it is not very common of movies these days to have any main protagonist die. let alone two.

The more I think about revolutions, the more I like the ending. it was not the doozy I was hoping for, but it was satisfying in its own ways.

all in all, the 3 movies are excellent, true triumphs in film making.

[alcimedes]

first off, Neo didn't die.

secondly, it would have been way cooler for them to do a LeBrea (sp?) Tarpit style ending to take care of agent Smith.

instead of Neo getting infected then having the architect find the "cure", it would have been much cooler to have Neo stuck for eternity fighting Agent Smith. as long as he's fighting, agent Smith is occupied and everyone is safe.

if Neo stops, Smith gets out and can infect everyone.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by alcimedes
first off, Neo didn't die.

Huh?

[alcimedes]

he's not dead.

when you see him getting carted off at the end, the platform he's on is glowing like there's no tomorrow. whatever that energy is supposed to represent in the movie (machine energy?) it's infused with his body so much that it's blinding.

that means that he probably is dead on some biological level, but Neo himself isn't dead. he's just become a machine energy based life now.

if he were dead dead, that platform would have looked normal.

[Moogs]

Yes, he did die. You recall him laying motionless and unplugged on the floating platform at the end of the movie? And then the camera shifts to the "energy view" and there is none emminating from Neo? Dead. I think what you're alluding to is, as he gets closer to that "energy core" in the distance, he appears to meld into it. At least, that's what I saw.

Alternately, it could be that what Neo saw before he died, were the *souls / spirits* of all the enslaved humans... and therefore what we saw towards the end of the platform scene, was Neo's spirit. But he's still physically dead IMO.

He died because he wasn't afraid to after he lost Trinity. In fact, my suggestion is that at the end of his fight with Smith, when he is completely beaten down and weak, he realizes that he can be with Trinity again (and defeat Smith at the same time) by giving in. So he does; he sacrifices himself for the benefit of Zion / humanity, and for his own benefit (to be with Trinity). Also, the significance of the name Trinity finally comes into play here.

When the Oracle says "I suspect [we'll see him again]... someday" in response to the little girl, I suspect she is a) trying to avoid putting the little girl in distress, and b) alluding to an afterlife -- even for sentient prorgams / machines. Since many obviously have emotions like humans, this doesn't seem far-fetched to me in the context of these movies.

[keyboardf12]

I ended up watching matrix 1 tues, matrix 2 weds then i went to the theater yesterday morning and watch matrix 3. i just have to say that i thought matric 3 was kick ass. what a greeat trilogy. probably the best popcorn movie trilogy since star wars.

I have questions but i have meetings all day till tues so i will have to type them up later.

quick one:

was the evil metal face dude at the end the head of all machines right, not the architect?

and yes. i do think smith "assimlated" the girl, changed the weather and in fact she changed it back to nice clouds at the end.

[alcimedes]

i just think that considering that in each of the other movies (Matrix 1 and Matrix 2) we had a character "die" then come back, Neo isn't dead.

he was just as dead in the first one.

Trinity was just as dead in the second one.

if he's laying on a platter and showing up with piles of energy in his body, he's not dead, IMO.

i couldn't care less if he was dead for a while, he'd come back before.

along those lines, since he was plugged directly into the Architect when Smith infected him, isn't in possible the Architect could have a copy of sorts of Neo on hand. then just reintroduce him to his body.

after all, Smith (a matrix program) was able to inhabit a human body, why couldn't Neo be saved and restored in a similar fasion?

[Gambit]

Originally posted by Moogs
Yes, he did die. You recall him laying motionless and unplugged on the floating platform at the end of the movie? And then the camera shifts to the "energy view" and there is none emminating from Neo? Dead. I think what you're alluding to is, as he gets closer to that "energy core" in the distance, he appears to meld into it. At least, that's what I saw.

Alternately, it could be that what Neo saw before he died, were the *souls / spirits* of all the enslaved humans... and therefore what we saw towards the end of the platform scene, was Neo's spirit. But he's still physically dead IMO.

He died because he wasn't afraid to after he lost Trinity. In fact, my suggestion is that at the end of his fight with Smith, when he is completely beaten down and weak, he realizes that he can be with Trinity again (and defeat Smith at the same time) by giving in. So he does; he sacrifices himself for the benefit of Zion / humanity, and for his own benefit (to be with Trinity). Also, the significance of the name Trinity finally comes into play here.

When the Oracle says "I suspect [we'll see him again]... someday" in response to the little girl, I suspect she is a) trying to avoid putting the little girl in distress, and b) alluding to an afterlife -- even for sentient prorgams / machines. Since many obviously have emotions like humans, this doesn't seem far-fetched to me in the context of these movies.


Exactly.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by alcimedes
i just think that considering that in each of the other movies (Matrix 1 and Matrix 2) we had a character "die" then come back, Neo isn't dead.

he was just as dead in the first one.

Trinity was just as dead in the second one.

if he's laying on a platter and showing up with piles of energy in his body, he's not dead, IMO.

i couldn't care less if he was dead for a while, he'd come back before.

along those lines, since he was plugged directly into the Architect when Smith infected him, isn't in possible the Architect could have a copy of sorts of Neo on hand. then just reintroduce him to his body.

after all, Smith (a matrix program) was able to inhabit a human body, why couldn't Neo be saved and restored in a similar fasion?


It's different this time. Neo is dead, period, because he has no reason to live. Trinity is gone, Neo's job is done, no reason for him to come back. He's dead, let it go, man. heh

You can't duplicate a human, not even with cloning or programming. It's the soul that makes the individual. The reason why Smith was able to copy himself is because he was a program.


No, Neo is dead, he's not coming back, nor should he because his job is done.

[rok]

i don't know why i keep reading this thread... i haven't even seen the movie yet... but from what i have read so far, it would have made a lot of sense if they had shown the "renaissance" animatrix shorts before the second and thrid movies. true, the osiris was a visual spectacle, and did explain a tie in with the drill, the meeting in the beginning of reloaded among the other captains, and the video game, but i though the renaissance shorts had a lot more resonance and depth to this whole machine vs. man conflict.

[Eugene]

Too much over-analysis of a bad movie. I'm pissed they left it open-ended. They said it was going to end here...they're lying of course.

I'm just so frickin' glad it didn't end up being a Matrix within a Matrix as was speculated after Reloaded.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by Eugene
Too much over-analysis of a bad movie. I'm pissed they left it open-ended. They said it was going to end here...they're lying of course.

I'm just so frickin' glad it didn't end up being a Matrix within a Matrix as was speculated after Reloaded.


You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

As for our 'over-analysis of a bad movie', you shouldn't be so condescending; I never really thought of that as your style.

As for the 'open-endedness' of it all, like I said earlier, I don't think there is a clean way to end the Matrix story. The end of Revolutions meant the end of the war between humans and machines, and a chance for both to rebuild. What more could you ask for?

[Eugene]

Originally posted by Gambit

As for our 'over-analysis of a bad movie', you shouldn't be so condescending; I never really thought of that as your style.
Pretending the movie is something it isn't...that's condescending. I can only take so many blasé existentialist monologues by The Architect, Oracle and Merovingian before I get bored. I got enough of that in Reloaded.

As for the 'open-endedness' of it all, like I said earlier, I don't think there is a clean way to end the Matrix story. The end of Revolutions meant the end of the war between humans and machines, and a chance for both to rebuild. What more could you ask for? [/B]
What more could I ask for? Proof that they'll keep their word and leave it as a trilogy.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by Eugene
Pretending the movie is something it isn't...that's condescending. I can only take so many blasé existentialist monologues by The Architect, Oracle and Merovingian before I get bored. I got enough of that in Reloaded.


What more could I ask for? Proof that they'll keep their word and leave it as a trilogy.



Huh. I wasn't aware having a conversation about a movie I enjoyed was condescending. I'll make a note of that in my log.


As for them keeping their word, I have yet to hear anything in the news or any source that they're making any more Matrix films. I'll keep my eye out though.

[Eugene]

It's perfectly fine with me. Bad movies aren't always unenjoyable.

But Revolutions was especially bad...on all counts. Even the action was cliché.

I loved the choreographed bullet-time sequences in the original. I hated the fight with the Smiths in Reloaded. I loved the chase sequence in Reloaded. I hated the sugar-rush Yoda/Dooku sabre fight in AotC. I hated the roller coaster ride hovership sequences in Revolutions. I thought the Zion battle sequence was okay, but entirely implausible...I hated the final fight scene in Revolutions because it was pure chaos. Many sequences were waaaay too long. The entire movie could have been 20 minutes shorter and still gotten the same message across. I had visions of Ron Howard behind the camera throughout the movie.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by Eugene
It's perfectly fine with me. Bad movies aren't always unenjoyable.

But Revolutions was especially bad...on all counts. Even the action was cliché.

I loved the choreographed bullet-time sequences in the original. I hated the fight with the Smiths in Reloaded. I loved the chase sequence in Reloaded. I hated the sugar-rush Yoda/Dooku sabre fight in AotC. I hated the roller coaster ride hovership sequences in Revolutions. I thought the Zion battle sequence was okay, but entirely implausible...I hated the final fight scene in Revolutions because it was pure chaos. Many sequences were waaaay too long. The entire movie could have been 20 minutes shorter and still gotten the same message across. I had visions of Ron Howard behind the camera throughout the movie.


I'm not arguing your opinion; what has me offended is that you are not allowing those of us that LIKED Revolutions (on ALL counts) to have our own opinions and discussions. You have said your piece and have blasted us in the process for our opinion. "Too much over-analysis of a bad movie" and "Pretending the movie is something it isn't...that's condescending" being examples. It'd be like me calling you stupid for not "getting it." (Just to be clear, I am NOT calling you stupid because your opinion is your opinion.)

Just don't sit there and tell us that we shouldn't enjoy and discuss a movie because you didn't; because THAT'S condescending, not us talking about it.

Cheers.

[Eugene]

Originally posted by Gambit

Just don't sit there and tell us that we shouldn't enjoy and discuss a movie because you didn't; because THAT'S condescending, not us talking about it.

Cheers.
I'm not stopping you from discussing the movie, am I?

I'm telling you humans that build hoverships and robot-suits should be able to knit better clothes.

Chainguns shouldn't be the staple weaponry of a society that builds hoverships and massive underground cities.

Zion wouldn't have lasted 1 minute in a real battle with those machines. One rather large thermonuclear explosion would have taken care of it nicely.

Dialogue is good, but all that babbling grates on you after a while.

Boy meets powerful captain. Captain shuns boy. Boy listens. Boy helps captain at just the right moment. Captain dies in front of boy. Boy listens to captain's dying words. Boy takes over for captain. Boy saves Zion. Cliché.

This movie is like a sentinel. It has tentacles pointed in every direction hoping that one will please you, or another will please me. I've discussed this movie way too much already. Toodles.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by Eugene
I'm not stopping you from discussing the movie, am I?

I'm telling you humans that build hoverships and robot-suits should be able to knit better clothes.

Chainguns shouldn't be the staple weaponry of a society that builds hoverships and massive underground cities.

Zion wouldn't have lasted 1 minute in a real battle with those machines. One rather large thermonuclear explosion would have taken care of it nicely.

This movie is like a sentinel. It has tentacles pointed in every direction hoping that one will please you, or another will please me.


Actually, those are good points. But Zion, and everything in it from the chainguns, hoverships, tunnels, and everything, is a machine-construct. Zion was built by the machines as a place to put the humans who rejected the Matrix. The Architect explained that in Reloaded. Zion is just another system of control, and everything in it has been placed there to give the humans false sense of security. Even the attack in Revolutions seemed theatrical enough to allow the humans a chance to fight back and give Neo time to reach the Core. I think that's why the Architect (with the Oracle's help) inadvertantly set Neo up to save Trinity and break away from being like the other Ones.

lol But I'm pretty sure you don't care. :)

[Eugene]

Have you seen Kill Bill?

[Gambit]

Originally posted by Eugene
Have you seen Kill Bill?

I did. I rather enjoyed that one, as well. I like Quentin's work. ...... Or is that the wrong answer? :lol:

[Gambit]

Anyway, let's get back on topic.

[job]

Originally posted by alcimedes
along those lines, since he was plugged directly into the Architect when Smith infected him, isn't in possible the Architect could have a copy of sorts of Neo on hand. then just reintroduce him to his body.

after all, Smith (a matrix program) was able to inhabit a human body, why couldn't Neo be saved and restored in a similar fasion?

He wasn't plugged into the Architect. The machines simply jacked him into the Matrix just like when he entered the Matrix while aboard one of the hovercrafts.

The talking head wasn't the Architect either. Remember, both the Architect and the Oracle are programs. One meant for enforcing the control of the machines, the other designed to try and break that control. The machine head is called the Deus Ex Machina, effectively the 'God from the Machine." It isn't the same entity as the Architect.

Oh, and the mother comment comes from Reloaded. Remember the Architect calling the Oracle the 'mother of the Matrix?' That's where Smith gets the phrase from.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by rob
He wasn't plugged into the Architect. The machines simply jacked him into the Matrix just like when he entered the Matrix while aboard one of the hovercrafts.




more so even, they used all his jacks in the machine city, not just his neck/head jack

[job]

Originally posted by Wrong Robot
more so even, they used all his jacks in the machine city, not just his neck/head jack

Very true. I had forgotten about that. I also found it fascinating to see the power source for the machines, the huge towers, slightly pulsating pink from all the pods. You have to wonder that that's where everyone was freed, including Neo, so the Neb in the first Movie must have flown the same route as Neo and Trinity did in Revolutions.

Oh, and the blue sky and the electrical storms killing the machines was cool.

[Randycat99]

Just for fun...

Originally posted by Eugene
I'm telling you humans that build hoverships and robot-suits should be able to knit better clothes.

Consider the ultimate technologies we have today, yet not everybody walks around in $800 Armani suits. I'd presume that money and resources are expended according to priority in the Matrix world (not "in" the Matrix, just the world depicted in the movie).

Chainguns shouldn't be the staple weaponry of a society that builds hoverships and massive underground cities.

Mass and velocity is not too easy to beat when it comes to weaponized energy transfer and quick aiming functionality. Though, I do agree that they seemed quite overmatched for just bulletfire. Sort of like in Starship Troopers- if it takes that much to kill a bug with a machine gun, then obviously they should be walking around with something a bit better than machine guns. Otherwise, you get these ridiculous stand-offs that no sane person would hang around to finish.

Zion wouldn't have lasted 1 minute in a real battle with those machines. One rather large thermonuclear explosion would have taken care of it nicely.

Now if nuclear materials were available on the planet, wouldn't the machines just base their energy generation needs off of that? Since they chose humans as an energy source, instead, I would presume that all nuclear sources had been depleted long ago.

Dialogue is good, but all that babbling grates on you after a while.

Agreed. After a while, I just got tired of trying to figure out what they meant as they were saying it. I felt like I was missing out on stuff.

Boy meets powerful captain. Captain shuns boy. Boy listens. Boy helps captain at just the right moment. Captain dies in front of boy. Boy listens to captain's dying words. Boy takes over for captain. Boy saves Zion. Cliché.

C'mon, those were some wicked face slashes on the captain, no? :)

This movie is like a sentinel. It has tentacles pointed in every direction hoping that one will please you, or another will please me. I've discussed this movie way too much already. Toodles.

U R A Tarantino fanboy! :p ;)

[cubs23]

Originally posted by Gambit
Actually, those are good points. But Zion, and everything in it from the chainguns, hoverships, tunnels, and everything, is a machine-construct. Zion was built by the machines as a place to put the humans who rejected the Matrix. The Architect explained that in Reloaded. Zion is just another system of control, and everything in it has been placed there to give the humans false sense of security. Even the attack in Revolutions seemed theatrical enough to allow the humans a chance to fight back and give Neo time to reach the Core. I think that's why the Architect (with the Oracle's help) inadvertantly set Neo up to save Trinity and break away from being like the other Ones.

lol But I'm pretty sure you don't care. :)

That is a good reminder, or notifier. I guess I just didn't understand what the architect was saying in reloaded because of all the fancy words. I never realized that zion was built by machines to put rejected people. It makes perfect sense, give some people hope, don't let the number grow too big, when it does, destroy it and start over. That ties some things up for me. Also, I didn't realize Neo was "jacked in" into every hole on his body, I thought they were just supports for him to sit back on. That could be something there as well, like the more ports that you are plugged into the more power you can have in the matrix. Another thing, I was disappointed to see Neo in the Matrix at the end vs. Smith. I wanted to see Neo wail on some more people hardcore, kind of like the opening scene of Reloaded, where he let the agents have it. ( I love that opening) Besides that, I like the fact that within all of the special effects, there is something to think about and discuss. It doesn't just make it another kung-fu flick. GREAT Trilogy!

[Gambit]

Originally posted by cubs23
GREAT Trilogy!

Thank you.

[Skipjack]

Matrix ping pong (downloadable wmv file) (http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=matrixpong.wmv)

[nwhysee]

Well Eugene the only reason i can give for the clothing is where would they get the raw materials? Whereas metal is lying around everywhere...

[LiquidR]

The part everyone forgets is that for the Matrix to continue existing Neo has to be reassimilated into the source. So the end sequence with Neo getting carried away is the machines carrying him back to the Source.

Is this really the end of the Matrix war? No. The heavy use of theology in the movies leads me to this. Neo was the sixth, 7 is the number that comes to my mind. This leads me to Seiti, the little girl.

Smith infected the girl, Smith had a little bit of Neo in him when he was destroyed in the 1st movie. Hence within the girl is a bit of Smith and Neo. A new anamoly.

[cubs23]

In animatrix, "a kids's story" the main character, Michael Popper, is the same kid in Reloaded and Revolutions that is eager to help win the war. He is the one in Revolutions that joins the APU army and the captain doesn't want him to. I just thought that was cool how an animatrix character is actually in the movies.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by LiquidR
Is this really the end of the Matrix war? No. The heavy use of theology in the movies leads me to this. Neo was the sixth, 7 is the number that comes to my mind. This leads me to Seiti, the little girl.

Smith infected the girl, Smith had a little bit of Neo in him when he was destroyed in the 1st movie. Hence within the girl is a bit of Smith and Neo. A new anamoly.


Hmm... interesting. But I doubt it. Seiti was an older program that controlled the weather who was saved from deletion. I don't think she's going to be any more than that.


Does anyone realize that it was the Oracle who told Neo to give up at the end? The Smith that had obsorbed the Oracle was the one fighting Neo at the end, and when Neo is lying down and Smith is saying how he had seen that in a vision, Smith says, "Everything that has a beginning has an end" and it freaks him out. He was saying, who said that?? Neo realized it was the Oracle speaking to him and then gave himself up. I thought that was an interesting, and possibly overlooked, little tidbit.

[kraig911]

neo is dead...

I hear there was some stuff at the end of the credits huh? cuz if so I missed it :( is it true?

anyways I actually liked the dialogue, in the second the most.

And why can't the humans just EMP shield their electronics as well as the machines? I mean... they sell that stuff at home depot I hear, c'mon!

as for cliches... kill bill was nothing but one to the fullest extent of... "cliche-ism" I liked the simple stories in the matrix embedded in there to add texture to the whole story. Though the whole trilogy is based upon exsistence and freedom.. the little sides stories add nothing but style. Also find me another movie where a general bears down upon a boy, and then the boy takes his place :) just go look... hehe i really can't recall any on the top of my head. sure it may sound cliche.. but maybe the right term would be trite...

overall I really liked this move.

[LiquidR]

originally posted by Gambit
Does anyone realize that it was the Oracle who told Neo to give up at the end? The Smith that had obsorbed the Oracle was the one fighting Neo at the end, and when Neo is lying down and Smith is saying how he had seen that in a vision, Smith says, "Everything that has a beginning has an end" and it freaks him out. He was saying, who said that?? Neo realized it was the Oracle speaking to him and then gave himself up. I thought that was an interesting, and possibly overlooked, little tidbit.


That bit I thought was obvious, at least to me.

I have to disagree with you on Seati being an older obsolete program. Remember in the Train Station the Father says that this is their child, he goes on to say she will be deleted because she has no purpose, not that she is obsolete.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by LiquidR
originally posted by Gambit


That bit I thought was obvious, at least to me.

I have to disagree with you on Seati being an older obsolete program. Remember in the Train Station the Father says that this is their child, he goes on to say she will be deleted because she has no purpose, not that she is obsolete.


A program that is no longer needed, that has no purpose, is obsolete, right? :)

[Messiah]

Am I the only one who's heard rumours of a fourth film?

:???:

They certainly left it wide open for a sequel. "Do you think we'll ever see Neo again?" "I think we just might, someday" etc.

It's going to end up like Alien. Kill off the main characters only to pull them out the hat again, via some ridiculously contrived plot twist, so that you can cash-in all over again.

God, I hope they don't do it!

[Messiah]

Originally posted by Gambit
A program that is no longer needed, that has no purpose, is obsolete, right? :)

Try telling that to :):):):):):):):):):).

[audiopollution]

Originally posted by Messiah
They certainly left it wide open for a sequel. "Do you think we'll ever see Neo again?" "I think we just might, someday" etc.

I'm sure the online game will see the story-arc continue, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a decent cartoon series at some point.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by Messiah
Am I the only one who's heard rumours of a fourth film?

:???:

They certainly left it wide open for a sequel. "Do you think we'll ever see Neo again?" "I think we just might, someday" etc.

Nah, I think the Oracle was implyiing that machines have souls, too.

[THT]

Saw the movie this afternoon. I loved it! Thought it was fantastic.

My favorite scene is definitely the dock scene, including Niobe piloting the Hammer back to the dock. I loved the fact that they used guns and rocket launchers rather than the stereotypical scifi "laser blaster". If indeed these matrix escapees were raised in the late 20th century using AI built Zion with associated machinery and hover-ships, they really only have enough knowledge to build "simple" guns. Those APUs weren't even mechanized infantry with exo-suits, they were dock loader suits using big guns. And it looks like reverse engineering the EMPs and hover-ships weren't possible for them either.

And yeah, I was really sad to see Trinity and Neo die. :(

[ThunderPoit]

all during the dock fight, i was watching they way the sentinels were fighting. Did anyone else notice the strategy they were using? it was freakin brilliant. like the way the all huddled together and did that flying wrecking-ball thing. as they were advancing on the gun tower, the ones that were in front shielding the others would fly around to the back as they got hit so as not to take up too much damage as a whole.

[Randycat99]

OK, I can understand how the machines would have built Zion, but why supply the humans with hovercrafts and EMP's? Did the hovercrafts come with all that "jack-in" hardware, or is that something the humans created and installed?

[kraig911]

eh RandyCAt that is up to personal discretion...
I personally think the humans made the hovercrafts and EMPs... The thing with rocket launchers and bullets is they hurt the machines, and not there equipment too.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by kraig911
eh RandyCAt that is up to personal discretion...
I personally think the humans made the hovercrafts and EMPs... The thing with rocket launchers and bullets is they hurt the machines, and not there equipment too.

No way man. The humans in Zion don't have the technology, or the know-how, to make the hover-crafts. No, I think they were provided to give the humans a false sense of security; yet another method of control.

[Randycat99]

What difference does it make if they feel any security (false or otherwise)?

[alcimedes]

here's one thing i didn't understand at all.

why didn't they just have 10 emp's in the dock area?

shut everything off, emp the bastards.

when more show up, shut everything off and emp them again.

you could do that all day.

[job]

Originally posted by alcimedes
here's one thing i didn't understand at all.

why didn't they just have 10 emp's in the dock area?

shut everything off, emp the bastards.

when more show up, shut everything off and emp them again.

you could do that all day.

cause it would be too easy. ;) :lol:

[trumptman]

Originally posted by alcimedes
here's one thing i didn't understand at all.

why didn't they just have 10 emp's in the dock area?

shut everything off, emp the bastards.

when more show up, shut everything off and emp them again.

you could do that all day.

If you remember in the second movie, all the ships of the various captains went to head off the machines and a junction where they thought they would have an advantage. I forget the name of the human Agent Smith took over (was it Blane?) but he activated the EMP on this ship in which he was serving and it disabled all the other ships. The machines then slaughtered all the captains and their various crews. Blane/Smith was the sole survivor and was picked up by the one ship I guess that managed to avoid all of it.

Nick

[alcimedes]

right. but why not keep a few on hand at the dock? it's not like EMP's are hard to make or resuse.

you can keep using 1 EMP all day. just keep recharging it.

[kraig911]

if you watch animatrix... the hovercraft is the standard for comfortable travel in the near future... complete with AC, FM stereo and mp3 player heh.

Also think of the logistics of it... they know exactly whats wrong with them when they are broken look at revolution when they repair the broken one, the operating system and everything even if they didn't originally manufacture them its very clear that they know what they are doing. Given the circumstances I think you'd have to know how they work, what they are used, to even know how to fly one.

its my personal opinion that the machines provided the humans Zion, with all the machinery they needed to have food and breath. As I recall and i"m not sure, but the dialogue with the elder in reloaded said that they manufactured them.

[kraig911]

Originally posted by alcimedes
here's one thing i didn't understand at all.

why didn't they just have 10 emp's in the dock area?

shut everything off, emp the bastards.

when more show up, shut everything off and emp them again.

you could do that all day.

dude thats what I am thinking... why don't they make just a bunch of thermo nuclear bombs and bomb 01 to heck... the EMP shockwave of a thermo, nuclear bomb alone could take the city out.

[pensieve]

Ok, I've dutifully avoided this thread until I got a chance to see the movie. Now, it's my turn to chime in. :)

There is a concept in psychology - borrowed from other areas, especially Eastern philosophy - called mindfulness. The Matrix is all about this concept. In general, there are 3 types of "mind": rational mind, emotion mind and wise mind. All humans struggle with this concept. It's that splinter in the back of your mind. Some people attempt to understand it more and these people were the ones that were "freed" and sent to Zion.

Neo's struggle was to get to wise mind. Wise mind is that place where you're operating out of an intuitive understanding of things. It's that feeling in your gut that you know what you need to do. Sometimes we don't understand it. The choices we make when we're not operating out of strict logic are sometimes the hardest to figure out but are the most important ones we can make. Neo was struggling to understand the choices his "wise mind" told him were right.

At the beginning of the first movie, in the "jump" scene, for example, Neo was still operating out of rational mind. He didn't understand HOW Morpheus could jump that far. It was impossible. As the movie progressed, we saw Neo beginning to trust his intuition and by the end of it, when he's able to stop the bullets, he's achieved wise mind and he now trusts what his rational mind tells him is not possible.

During the second movie, Neo is trying to understand what he knows to be true. The intuition that he needs to do certain things, the choices he "can't understand." This is where the Oracle comes in. Keep in mind, she's an intuitive program, designed to help the Matrix maintain control and understand the sometimes illogical nature of the people it's trying to control. The second movie was all about understanding intuition. By the end of it, Neo still doesn't get it.

Now we move to the third movie and Neo's still stuck trying to understand his intuition. But in the meantime the war continues. Neo understands that he must do something to stop Smith but that's a hard decision to make. Here he is struggling with emotion mind. Emotion mind and wise mind look a lot alike because they both consider things that don't necessarily map onto logical ideas.

We cut to the last scene in the movie. Neo and Smith are way up in the sky and Neo gets a look in his eye. I thought he was going to open up a can of whoop ass on Smith at that point. Instead, we've got Smith taking Neo all the way to the ground and basically defeating him. But Neo fights on and Smith can't understand why he would do it. It's choice. It's Neo's choice to continue fighting and it was Neo's choice to allow Smith to infiltrate his body. (Remember the scene in the second movie when Smith tries to do the same thing? Neo fought it off then - a decision that SEEMED like the wise thing to do, but was actually emotion mind mimicking wise mind.) Neo understands the decision he has made. That is acceptance of one's role in life and a genuine belief that it's the right thing to do. Neo didn't give up, he accepted his role.

At the end, the equation is balanced - both Neo and Smith were "canceled" out and the Oracle, Sati and Serif were all leftover when Smith was destroyed. The "revolution" in this movie was that the machines are doing things differently now. "Some things never change. And some things do."

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by agro craig
dude thats what I am thinking... why don't they make just a bunch of thermo nuclear bombs and bomb 01 to heck... the EMP shockwave of a thermo, nuclear bomb alone could take the city out.


They DID, in the animatrix second renessaince part 2


this is my biggest problem with the series, I LOVE the movies, and really enjoyed them, BUT

this is a big discrepancy, the SR:P2 starts by talking about how humans mastered all the elements of earth and layed waste to 01, then it shows 01 englufed in nuclear fire.

but yet somehow the subsequent EMPs from all those nukes didn't short out all the machines?

bologne!

even worse is that they show nukes going off in the midst of battle(well, okay maybe these were just really big bombs that caused mushroom clouds)but still, the machines somehow WIN the war???

I went into revolutions expecting to be totally mind-:):):):)ed, I was hoping they pulled a ridiculous twist like "actually, the machines LOST the war and, since they are machines, they are easy to reprogram, though since they are also sophisticated AI, they needed something to do to keep them passive, hence creating the illusion of the matrix, and the winning of the war...and yadda yadda yadda"

that was and ending that I was prepared to swallow, simply because it is sooooo far out there and uinexpected.

I was also jokingly ready to take "*and neo wakes up in the real world, the whole thing was a dream*"
:p

[Dogcow]

One thing that has bugged me from the beginning is the idea of humans as a battery. Yes, our body produces energy but we never put out as much as we but in. We are rather inefficient in that regard. How then can the machines keep us alive? They say that they feed the dead to the living, yet that still would not be enough energy to keep the living body alive. There is no way all the body would produce enough energy to power all those machines, put the city of zion. Also I'm surprised the machine never bothered to come up with a more efficient energy source, or even come up with a way to clean the sky and use the sun.

[rok]

Originally posted by Dogcow
One thing that has bugged me from the beginning is the idea of humans as a battery. Yes, our body produces energy but we never put out as much as we but in. We are rather inefficient in that regard. How then can the machines keep us alive? They say that they feed the dead to the living, yet that still would not be enough energy to keep the living body alive. There is no way all the body would produce enough energy to power all those machines, put the city of zion. Also I'm surprised the machine never bothered to come up with a more efficient energy source, or even come up with a way to clean the sky and use the sun.

i think the wachowskis kinda ignored some factual problems for the sake of their story. an old story i heard from a very reputable friend of mine in the comic biz said the wachowskis actually started the matrix as a comic long before the movie, but found that it was actually less difficult to pitch a movie idea and get funding than to back regular publication and sales of their comic in a flooded marketplace (this was the mid-to-late 90's, when the comic industry imploded under its own weight and the influence of collectors and tie-ins than actual storylines).

so let that be a lesson to all you young folk -- hone your hollywood pitching skills (*ahem*), and then you can do anything else you want.

;)

[alcimedes]

We are rather inefficient in that regard. How then can the machines keep us alive?

actually, i just rewatched the first one the other day. there's one line that talks about this.

something to the extent blah blah "this energy, combined with a form of fusion"

i was like WTF!! they have fusion and they're wasting time on human beings. it makes even less sense that way, but oh well. only thing i can think of is that the human energy is somehow usable when the fusion energy isn't. but energy is energy.

[rok]

Originally posted by alcimedes
actually, i just rewatched the first one the other day. there's one line that talks about this.

something to the extent blah blah "this energy, combined with a form of fusion"

i was like WTF!! they have fusion and they're wasting time on human beings. it makes even less sense that way, but oh well. only thing i can think of is that the human energy is somehow usable when the fusion energy isn't. but energy is energy.

well, remember the machines are trying to maintain a position of control over humankind, too. so if you have to maintain control over the people, you may as well get something back from them while you're at it (otherwise, all you have is a prison system, where you invest lots intto the system, but get negligible returns). and once they figured out a program that could keep them unaware 98% of the time, then they only needed to invest a minimal amount of effort to patrol against that rogue 2%.

[Nordstrodamus]

Originally posted by alcimedes
i was like WTF!! they have fusion and they're wasting time on human beings. it makes even less sense that way, but oh well. only thing i can think of is that the human energy is somehow usable when the fusion energy isn't. but energy is energy.

Yeah, that explanation is very weak, scientifically. That's why I was hoping that they were going to reveal a more rational explanation for the matrix. In the Animatrix they explain the development of the matrix as the result of a peace treaty with the machines. I think a cooler explanation would be that the machines need the humans for innovation or simply keep them alive out of some lingering respect for their creators.

Yet more reasons why they should have a TV series.

[Wrong Robot]

something I read in defense of the silliness of using humans as batteries or whatever.

If you tell a human that X resource will give them power for 100,000 years, they will be satisfied. But if you tell a machine that, they will instantly start worrying about year 100,001

but with the humans in combination with the fusion reactor, they have truly unlimited power, or power that will last till the calculated end of the solar system at least.

of course, it's still fairly silly, but take it with a grain of salt, this is science FICTION after all.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by kraig911
dude thats what I am thinking... why don't they make just a bunch of thermo nuclear bombs and bomb 01 to heck... the EMP shockwave of a thermo, nuclear bomb alone could take the city out.
Did you watch the Animatrix? They did...but the machines were unaffected. Yeah right.

[alcimedes]

yeah, the only good explanation i ever heard as to why they kept humans around was that they used to matrix to mine people for creative ideas.

since machine are machines, in theory they won't be nearly as creative as humans could be.

so the machines just work the Matrix so that humans are working to solve whatever the machines want solved.

[kraig911]

Originally posted by Placebo
Did you watch the Animatrix? They did...but the machines were unaffected. Yeah right.

yeah i did watch it myself... remember the line...
"but machines are unaffected like human flesh too radioactivity (yeah right) and kept rebuilding...

Overall if you put it into perspective 8 billion humans massed together to make convectional heat into electricity I guess works... sides its freaky (which is cooler)... way better than the they kept humans as slaves in the terminator.

I personally think that 01 wouldn't have looked the way it did either in real life... it looks too human influenced... if it was a machine I'd go the borg thing like a big cube of efficiency or something.

Did anyone see the huge starfox lookalike face at the end? hehe

yeah and the rennaissance in the animatrix was by far the coolest one on there.

[Gambit]

Originally posted by kraig911
yeah and the rennaissance in the animatrix was by far the coolest one on there.


I beg to differ! The coolest one (I feel) was definitely Beyond, where the kids encounter a glitch in the Matrix and think the messed up code is really a haunted house.

[SledgeHammer]

Originally posted by Gambit
I beg to differ! The coolest one (I feel) was definitely Beyond, where the kids encounter a glitch in the Matrix and think the messed up code is really a haunted house.

I think Matriculated is my favorite, although I can't say for sure why (it's the very last shot that really does it for me). I really like Beyond and Detective story too. I like renaissance for it's information, and Osiris's animation is unbelievable. I enjoy the rest of 'em, but they're nothing special.