Does Anybody Care [Archive]

meilleure ami

11-22-2003, 12:07 AM

As of 11/21/03 at 10:55 pm CST, 131 people have checked out this site with only one person posting a comment. I guess that means the topic heading is catchy, but the subject matter isn't? I wonder why. Here's my concern in a nutshell. If Apple can treat its loyal resellers--folks that have been working with them, side by side, for over 20 years--by lying, cheating, and stealing from them, what is going to keep them from doing this to us, their loyal consumers?

Apple dosen't HAVE to lie, cheat, or steal from their resellers. It only interferes with expanding their market. Bad resellers go out of business all on their own. It is the good ones, the guys that have been around since the mid-80's, that are getting screwed now. Aside from that being a bad thing to do to the PEOPLE involved, it isn't good for business either.

What can we do about it? Make some noise around here at least. This isn't going to be like having no more corner drug store to go to because Walgreen's has taken over. Or, maybe it will be JUST like that. Homogony, sucking up to the party line, because there is NO other place to go if you want to use Apple computers. The new Power books are having problems. No so, according to Apple stores. Are the people posting on various websites lying about this phenomena? Well, I can find out from my independent Apple reseller and still get the truth from them. The tech guy happens to be honest about what hardware is problematic and what hardware rocks. The Apple store folks will get CANNED if they are.

I am the only one out there who cares about this?

Fluffy

11-22-2003, 12:27 AM

I agree with you, but only to a point. I bought my first mac from a reseller in 1992 (yes, it was a IIvx). The store was elegant in a way that the Apple Store just can't compare to. It was obvious that this was a place where premium computers were sold to discriminating buyers.

During the great depression of '96-'98 most of these places either expanded into other computers, went out of business or moved into a dingy little plaza shop more suited to Mom's Custom Computers, and during the '98-'00 recovery most of them didn't change a thing. I recently went back to that Apple Store and, while there were a few macs around there were just as many Compaqs and HPs and bargain basement steel shelving holding everything up. The crimson carpet was stained and barely visible and there were no plants anywhere.

Bottom line: margins are razor thin, and individual proprietors for the most part aren't willing to invest the capital needed to turn a warehouse store into an Apple Store. I can see Apple's point. But in the end, yes it's a nasty thing to do and I would have hoped it was beneath Apple (but never really believed it). :(

Lain

11-22-2003, 06:14 AM

This might be of interest.

About 2 days ago, Apple deleted a 137 post thread from their G5 discussion board. That thread had posts from their retail customers complaining that their at most 3 month old machines are being discontinued and replaced by an almost twice as powerfull G5 for almost the same price. Wether they had a right to be upset about what happened is up for debade, but Apple deleting that thread yells communist dictatorship to me.

meilleure ami

11-22-2003, 11:03 AM

Lain wrote:

"This might be of interest.

About 2 days ago, Apple deleted a 137 post thread from their G5 discussion board. That thread had posts from their retail customers complaining that their at most 3 month old machines are being discontinued and replaced by an almost twice as powerfull G5 for almost the same price. Wether they had a right to be upset about what happened is up for debade, but Apple deleting that thread yells communist dictatorship to me."

This is exactly the kind of thing we need to start putting together to see if Apple is starting to do unto us as they have been doing unto their resellers for YEARS. Thanks Lain. Anybody else have anything to add? Bring it on if you do!

jeromba

11-22-2003, 11:36 AM

you forgot one thing about the apple's forum... there is ***like here*** some posting guidelines and of course "moderators" ... The topic there was out of place. It's a forum for people who have hardware problems with their G5... Not a forums for "OMG The value of my Mac is not good anymore ! I blame Apple because I can't make enough money when I want to sell My G5 1.8 on eBay ! ".
About your view from reseller, I will give you an analogy... first time ever for me to come with cars :) anyway... if you must buy a Beetle or a BMW, do you prefer to buy it from VW or BMW or from an obscure reseller... I think that's the point of Apple.

meilleure ami

11-22-2003, 12:31 PM

Question. Was the thread moved, as is done here, or deleted? Big difference there.

As to buying a BMW from a reseller, Mini Coopers are sold through BMW dealerships currently. The analogy? Mini Cooper is availing themselves of the client base, overhead, etc. of established retail outlets to sell their product. They also reimburse BMW to promote their product as well. Consumers want it--BMW sells it--and everyone is happy. Next, let's say Mini Cooper wants to sell direct. Do they go about it the way Apple has, by cutting into profit margins, setting ridiculously high quotas on add ons, like extended warranties and floor mats, thus making BMW dealers either stop selling Mini Coopers or doing a bare bones job whereas previously they were able to do a top notch one? I understand the thought process here. String 'em along until we can establish ourselves in the direct market, then cut 'em loose when WE say so. There is no consideration for what the anxillary costs are, however, such as customer dissatisfaction and dealer reputation, not to mention the economics involved to both effected parties.

There is a MUCH better way to have gone about this. Check earlier in this thread for the link to co-opetition, which the poster believes Apple does a good job of. Got to be kidding with that comment when the facts get revealed.

meilleure ami

11-22-2003, 12:47 PM

Just found these two articles that may be of interest to those of you checking out this thread:

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/g5enclosure.html

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/netflixfanatic.html

Any comments would be appreciated.

iBrowse

11-22-2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
Question. Was the thread moved, as is done here, or deleted? Big difference there.

Where would it have been moved to? I don't think the support discussion pages contain a forum for Hardware value opinions and bitching.

jeromba

11-22-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
Question. Was the thread moved, as is done here, or deleted? Big difference there.

Like iBrowse say...

As to buying a BMW from a reseller, Mini Coopers are sold through BMW dealerships currently. The analogy? Mini Cooper is availing themselves of the client base, overhead, etc.

You didn't respond to my simple question.
Did YOU want to buy your Z4 from a BMW reseller ONLY or did you want to buy it from "SuperPromoPriceCar™" (who buy the way sell also Toyota, Chrysler, etc.) ?
Which one can have the better service and all the options ?
I think the first one.
Apple is all about image and like all star who care about his/her image, they want to control it from top to bottom.

meilleure ami

11-22-2003, 02:22 PM

Hey Jeromba. I didn't want to buy a Z4--I want to buy a Mini Cooper. I DID answer your question. Used to be that the ONLY place you could buy an Apple computer was through a channel. Of course I want to buy a BMW at a BMW dealership, bu it wasn't possible to buy an Apple from an Apple store until quite recently. Do you get the parallel now?

As to image, did you check out these sites? If so, I'd be curious what your impressions are.

Amorph

11-22-2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
Question. Was the thread moved, as is done here, or deleted? Big difference there.

As to buying a BMW from a reseller, Mini Coopers are sold through BMW dealerships currently.

BMW makes them. Why wouldn't they sell them?

As for Apple, it's true that they hasn't treated many resellers well for some years now. They've had parts replacement costs and policies that range from silly to extortionist for years now, and I can remember a huge flap over a contract that gave Apple access to VARs' customer lists as well.

As far as the thread on the Apple Discussion Boards goes (and FYI, they're quite famous for deleting critical and contentious threads there), look at it from Apple's side: They have a chance to beef up a flagging product in time for the holidays, offering their customers a much better value for their 2.5 grand, and... what's this? I could tell in the analyst meeting that Apple is getting frustrated with the lag and inertia involved in their retail channel, and this flap over the dual 1.8 is probably a symptom of that.

We're still only getting one side of the reseller story, though (which, I hasten to add, is better than only getting Apple's line - kudos to Think Secret and others for getting this news out). Still, given that Apple had a lot of resellers before they opened their first Apple Store, why did they bother? There's an old-line store in Northampton, MA called the Electronics Boutique. It's been there almost as long as I can remember. Last time I was there, they had an LCD iMac proudly looking out the window. Obviously, they've survived the various cullings that Apple has done, and they've probably done it by selling a lot of Macs and supporting them well. Mac users of all stripes pull out the "LOYAL" word almost immediately, but why would Apple be so focused on overhauling its retail strategy if retail was doing its job? Anderson's said that Apple wants control, but from what I can see from following this, it's because they feel that the point-of-sale is out of control, and there are resellers up in arms about how they can't continue to sell old equipment at full price. Well... yeah. It's not about the little guys, either. Sears and Best Buy were both kicked out unceremoniously after they screwed up, too.

So, is it a good thing if Apple gains total control of retail? Well, first of all, I don't think they will. Anderson also said they were looking at 8,000 retail locations for the iPod, and there will not be 8,000 Apple retail stores any time soon. So they're continuing to work with people. (Although, even there, wasn't there some flap where people stopped carrying iPods because of some ridiculous demand of Apple's?) That notwithstanding, there is the old truth that power corrupts, and so even as Apple becomes happier with a greatly increased control over retail, it will be more crucial for the Mac media to keep an eye on what they're doing. It's not inherently bad to have a monopoly. Monopolies are watched closely because the temptation to abuse monopoly power is significant, and that's when people get ripped off and antitrust law kicks in. Nevertheless, the more control Apple gets, the more closely it will have to be watched.

iPeon

11-22-2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
I am the only one out there who cares about this?

Yes.

What I mostly see from your postings is a rant about something you have misunderstood. I also see a good amount of FUD thrown in just to make it look like it's actually an issue. The goal is to increase market share, if the Apple distributors aren't making this a reality, then Apple damn well better do something about it. Apple needs to get their feet planted into the corporate world, and that is what I see Apple doing. ABOUT TIME!

meilleure ami

11-22-2003, 03:00 PM

iPeon. What have I misunderstood? It sounds like Amorph has a really sound, objective handle on this situation. Would you rather just let Apple fly, with blind support, until something happens to YOU personally and, all of a sudden, you, too begin to care?

iPeon

11-22-2003, 03:29 PM

What I feel you misunderstand is the big picture. Apple's market share is stagnant. What would you do about that if you were in Apple's shoes? I would set up a sales force to handle the hell out of that.

That's what I would do given that everything else is in place. We have a superior OS, great hardware, so what gives? Some would say it's price. I know from first hand business experience that price is NOT the issue. It almost never is unless the price is just plain outrageous. Apple's current prices are very reasonable no mater what some say around here.

Personally I would like to see my favorite computer platform kick some butt and take some rightful market share away from the other side. Now, I don't get how you blow this into "Would you rather just let Apple fly, with blind support, until something happens to YOU personally and, all of a sudden, you, too begin to care?"

Are we discussing a real issue or some reality only you see? Are you an Apple reseller that has been "mistreated" by Apple?

Lain

11-22-2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by iPeon
We have a superior OS, great hardware, so what gives? Some would say it's price. I know from first hand business experience that price is NOT the issue. It almost never is unless the price is just plain outrageous. Apple's current prices are very reasonable no mater what some say around here.

In our local shopping centre there are 2 video game stores - one is part of the Electronic Boutiqe franchise and the other is just a one-off. Both look nice and appealing. But why is EB more crowded than a marketplace and the other store you could swing a baseball bat in and not hit anyone? I think familiarity. People know EB, they are comforable going there and the other store from the "outside" does not seem to be offering anything new so why bother chaging?

I've thought to myself what would I do if I were the owner of the fledging business? I would drop the prices by about 5 - 10% - put discount signs up in my display windows - and maybee hire some "attractive" people (though the idea sickens me) to go out and hand out panthlets to my potential mostly male customers - untill enough customers made a habbit of coming into my store.

meilleure ami

11-22-2003, 08:20 PM

iPeon, I am NOT a reseller that has been "mistreated" by Apple. I am an Apple user that sees how Apple has screwed with their resellers for many years and I am concerned that the one I have been going to will not be around much longer.

I found this all out BY ACCIDENT while "googling" for a reseller in your neck of the woods, as a matter of fact. I came across articles regarding reseller lawsuits that were filed in February of this year. It piqued my interest. I had believed that Apple was, indeed, something different and that was one of the major reasons the platform enjoyed such a limited following. I had believed that Apple was more interested in R&D and creating a beautiful product than all the marketing ploys and strategies of the larger, corporate machines against which they were competing.

I, too, want to see Apple users increase in numbers only because Apple products are far superior, in my experience. The real reason, in my opinion, this is not the case is that most people have grown up using Wintel machines because , among other things, Apple corporate has kept a stranglehold on how its elegant machines have been marketed. Why, I don't know, but that is the history. Now, they are eliminating those elements that have made inroads, albeit small ones, into their communities over the past 20 or so years, to be replaced with their own stores. Why not work cooperatively, as Amorph suggests?

It is a bad business move to compete with this established channel rather than bring them onboard with their aggressive marketing strategy through the use of their own retail stores. It has always been Apple's exclusivity that has kept them that way--limited and exclusive.

If you are not aware of what lawsuits I am referring to, google for Apple reseller lawsuits.

Barto

11-22-2003, 09:29 PM

I worked at a reseller. We were "mistreated" by Apple like all other resellers.

Guess what? I couldn't care less. Apple needs to be more involved, not less, if they want the consumer's experience improved. They need to cut margins to increase marketshare. In the end, small Apple resellers are doomed, but it's inevitable, not because of the "big bad Apple".

Barto

advocate

11-23-2003, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
As to buying a BMW from a reseller, Mini Coopers are sold through BMW dealerships currently.

You just spent an incredible amount of time trying to prove a point that wasn't even true. Actually, you made the exact opposite point. BMW only sells MINI Coopers through BMW dealerships because they want complete control of the buying experience. That's why you can't buy a new MINI from anyone but BMW.

I'm sure some of Apple's resellers have been very loyal through some very tough times, but if the fact of the matter is that they aren't doing a good enough job at getting boxes out the door, they need to go. I don't go to my local Apple place for ANYTHING, partly because they're hardly ever open, but also because they're in a crappy strip mall on the south side of town, and their prices are outrageous. I considered buying my PowerBook there, but after coming in one day and not getting any help from anyone there, I reconsidered.

meilleure ami

11-23-2003, 12:10 AM

"They need to cut margins to increase market share". And how exactly does cutting margins = increasing market share?

There are a multitude of reasons Apple has such a small market share with such a superior product, but small margins do not appear to be one of them.

Check out these latest articles:

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/netflixfanatic.html

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/g5enclosure.html

This shows how Apple mistreats not only their resellers, but now innovative employees as well as service centers. When and how will it stop is the question....

meilleure ami

11-23-2003, 12:19 AM

Advocate, I don't blame you for not frequenting your crappy local Apple reseller. Why would you? How long has it been in business, I wonder? Usually, stores like that go out of business all on their own, without any assistance from difficuties in their dealings with their suppliers. If they HAVE been in business for a while, doesn't it make you wonder what has happened to them now?

Fluffy

11-23-2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
And how exactly does cutting margins = increasing market share?

There are a multitude of reasons Apple has such a small market share with such a superior product, but small margins do not appear to be one of them.
Um... smaller margins lower prices? There are indeed a multitude of reasons that Apple has a small market share, and large margins is at the top of the list. Not that lowering prices now would have a major effect (it might have some, it might have a lot). But historically the reason for PC dominance in the late '80s early '90s when Apple had a real chance to grow was the high price of Mac systems. With lower prices (and a few other things) Apple could have easily hit 25% market share by 1994.

meilleure ami

11-23-2003, 01:01 PM

Apple is now cutting RESELLER margins to all time lows. Are you suggesting that Apple's OWN large margins over the past have contributed to their having such high prices, relative to the other computers out there, and consequently was the major contributing factor to their small market share during the computer boom? I have been informed that their margins were comparable to the other computer companies during that time--Apple computers are just more expensive to manufacture. Is this information erroneous?

scavanger

11-24-2003, 03:22 AM

PC's and Apples share many things in common. PCI, IDE cables, Hard Drives... many things are shared in common. The only real differences are that they use a different chip and chip architecture. Ethernet Chips, Firewire, USB, ect.. are all the same both on PC and Mac.

Honestly, having less resellers will only hurt apple. People are wary about buying on the internet more so then ever before, due to the fact that so many Americans are affected by credit card fraud.

I live in Michigan. I've been to about 7 different malls here... not the really pricey onces out in Oakland County, but over a large area... 5 different cities to be exact. I haven't seen one store that sells Apple. CompUSA is the only one I've ever seen sell Apple.

If apple creats less resellers, I think it will hurt their overall sales in general. People like to buy a product they see all over. It gives them the illusion that they are comparison shopping, and that it is a hit.

Excuse my grammar and spelling, its late. :(

Fluffy

11-24-2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
AI have been informed that their margins were comparable to the other computer companies during that time--Apple computers are just more expensive to manufacture. Is this information erroneous?
At the time the margins were comparable given the extra work Apple had to do to develop the OS, use non-standard parts etc. Had Apple been willing to cut its margins below that of the general industry and accept smaller profits I think their market share would have grown.

Did anyone really expect the Mac Classic with an 8 MHz 68000 and a 9" black and white screen to sell for $999 in 1991 when a 20MHz VGA 286 could be had for the same price? Could Apple have sold the LC for $1599 in '91? Would it have been impossible to address more than 10MB of RAM in that thing, or was Apple protecting IIsi sales? Could they have just repackaged the IIci and sold it for $1499 instead of creating the limited LCIII in '93?

I think that anything that would have lowered prices in those years would have been a positive influence on the bottom line.

scavanger

11-24-2003, 05:45 PM

OSX uses alot of open source software... I would be willing to be R&D on Windows is higher then that of OSX.

pensieve

11-24-2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by scavanger
OSX uses alot of open source software... I would be willing to be R&D on Windows is higher then that of OSX.

Because labor is free.

meilleure ami

11-24-2003, 06:18 PM

Labor is free? Please explain. If you are talking about folks working on either Windows or Mac OS, aren't they paid employees? Or, are you referring to employees, like the one referenced in this article, whose ideas are ripped off because they ARE employees?

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/netflixfanatic.html

scavanger

11-24-2003, 06:21 PM

I was refering to alot of the Open Sourced stuff, like Apache, ect.. that is free labor.

pensieve

11-24-2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
Labor is free? Please explain. If you are talking about folks working on either Windows or Mac OS, aren't they paid employees? Or, are you referring to employees, like the one referenced in this article, whose ideas are ripped off because they ARE employees?

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/netflixfanatic.html

I was being sarcastic. scavenger is a windows troll and I was pointing out the flaws in his thinking because some of OS X is open-source, development is cheap.

pensieve

11-24-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by scavanger
I was refering to alot of the Open Sourced stuff, like Apache, ect.. that is free labor.

Apache is free, but what about integrating it into the OS? That's free too?

scavanger

11-24-2003, 07:52 PM

Just becuase I use windows, and see that it has merits, I'm a troll... just becuase I don't worship apple, I am a troll. I will say it again. I will be buying an iBook as soon as my supervisor swaps hers for a new PB. I'm buying it becuase I need a light and powerful notebook. I wouldn't mind also having a Unix platform either.

I use Windows, Gentoo Linux, and soon to be OSX.

Just because I see that Linux and Windows have some higher points doesn't mean that I'm a troll.

The fact that you declare me a troll since I don't think OSX is the greatest thing ever, is really biased. OSX has a lot of flaws. Finder crashing is horrible, considering you will find alot of places where Windows is the dominate networking technology, especially in alot of smaller start ups.

I have given nothing but constructive view points on both PCs and Macs, if you are too close minded to see that then I pity you. The only time I've just hated something, is quicktime, I've hated it for the past 10 years, and I don't plan to change my mind now.

scavanger

11-24-2003, 07:54 PM

Developement is cheaper if you are using opensource... you have more programers that you don't have to pay, you cannot deny that it is cheaper.

pensieve

11-24-2003, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by scavanger
Developement is cheaper if you are using opensource... you have more programers that you don't have to pay, you cannot deny that it is cheaper.

And it's cheaper for MS to swipe ideas from Apple than to pay the creative people who think them up, too. I'd say it's even in the "get what you can for free" department. Only Apple gives back to the community they get from (KHTML, for example).

scavanger

11-24-2003, 08:37 PM

Microsoft is a business. They want profit they want bottom line, they want to own what they create. They are no differnt then most of the business that create and sell products. If apple wouldn't of been so generous in the past maybe they wouldn't of lost their GUI idea to MS in the past. Its a business you can't say that MS is being greedy, they are better then most of the Fortune 500 Companies.

meilleure ami

11-24-2003, 09:14 PM

Ah, and now we get back to the original point of this thread; Apple behaving as a big business. It appears that most Apple enthusiasts feel their latest tactics are "about time"--no more Mr. Nice Guy--let's do whatever it takes to go for the bottom line--so that we can, what? Get a bigger piece of the market share?

How has Apple "been so generous in the past"? As I am relatively new to computers in general--Apple has been my first and only platform--I am ignorant about this history. This may help me get a perspective on user response to the current situation regarding Apple.

scavanger

11-24-2003, 09:42 PM

Back when the Personal Computer came out, Apple was the leader in this market becuase IBM didn't think people would want a Personal Computer, instead everything was done in throught a terminal connected to a Mainframe manufactured by IBM in most cases. Well anyway, near this time Xerox developed what we know as the "Graphical User Interface" and the "Mouse" Xerox didn't think these would become big hits and they sold them to Apple. At this same time, Microsoft was licensing DOS to companies. I can't exactly remember what happened but somehow Microsoft and Apple had a partner ship for a while, and they basicly stole the GUI and mouse idea. It's been forever since I read about this this, so excuse me if its wrong or has errors, feel free to correct as I would like to know myself.

Anyway, cutting out retailers isn't going to help apple. Seems to me that people got pissed when Apple releases a new product and the retailers are still selling older ones, like with the Dual G5's and stuff.. well all I say to them is did you research what you were going to buy? Did you check different places? Did you find out which was the latest one. This is directed towards the people that bought an older Mac with 10.2 on it and complained it didn't have 10.3, the retailer can't just get rid of his older model's and replace with newer ones, they have to sell them. This is more directed at bad purchesing on the consumer's part.

I would think more retailers would help apple look more popular and more wide spread and encourage growth.

iPeon

11-24-2003, 10:41 PM

I have yet to understand your issue meilleure ami. Nowhere in the article you linked to does it say that Apple is cutting off it's resellers.

Apple is beefing up its sales force with representatives tasked with selling directly to large accounts, sources said.

Sources confirmed that Apple has divided its new direct sales force into fifteen regions, each with the goal of developing $5 million in annual business. With this sales force, Apple intends to target traditional print design and creative customers. The company also plans to take on enterprise markets.

The rest is pure speculation - typical modern day journalism unfortunately - 10% fact and 90% intended controversy to keep the readers entertained. Never mind that no one wins by this, but that's another subject.

Back to the subject. Resellers only play a role within an established market, for without an established market resellers have no one to sell it to. Get it? For resellers to exist in the first place there has to be an establishing market there for them to sell it to. The keyword here is "established." You say Apple already has an established market? Oh no they don't. At 3% market share one cannot say it's an established market. Apple does have a few strong areas such as print and media but even those key areas are being eroded by Windows. The enterprise market has never even been close to anything resembling an established market by Apple.

So your fears will be realized if Apple does not succeed in re-establishing itself within it's key customers and establishing itself in new markets for there will be no resellers for sure if Apple fails.

Now that everything is in place, it's time to sell sell sell. ;)

meilleure ami

11-25-2003, 12:42 AM

iPeon, you got it right again. Without an established market, there may not be a product for resellers TO sell. As to the issue of Apple targeting their resellers for elimination not being substantiated, that is kind of the nature of the beast. Substantiation of this will probably not take place until this goal has been accomplished.

Insider information to which I am privvy comes to me only because I have a brother who works for one of Apple's legal arms. It would not be a good career move for that source to be revealed, if you catch my drift. Perhaps this link will be able to provide a little more information, but it too is not verified because of concern regarding repercussions.

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/specialistchanges.html

As to your call for Apple to sell, sell, sell, wouldn't it make the most amount of sense for Apple to join their new retail stores along with their long standing established channels? This would bring more Apples to more people while cutting down on the enormous expense of replacing their resellers with either mortar and brick stores or online options. Instead of targeting their resellers to enhance their bottom line, wouldn't it be more cost effective, in the long run, to join forces with them?

alcimedes

11-25-2003, 01:17 AM

iPeon

11-25-2003, 02:05 AM

One cannot make a decisive conclusion without the necessary data to analyze the situation. By deducing from what we know, we can conclude that Apple is doing what it needs to do to meet it's goals, at least one would hope so. :D

I can see why Apple might be cleaning out resellers that aren't doing what it takes to get it done and put in place a better sales force. Some of the actions taken when one is faced with a "danger" condition are: Bypass (ignore the junior normally in charge of the activity and handle it personally), handle the situation and any danger in it, reorganize the activity so that the situation does not repeat. Hence it makes perfect sense to me why Apple is doing what it's doing. But again, this belief is pure deduction based on data that all can see.

meilleure ami

11-25-2003, 02:24 PM

i would guess apple is more concerned with an adequete sales experience or "apple" experience than with wiping out other sellers.

see numerous threads on CompUSA and/or Best Buy, Sears etc. and people's experiences there.

Unfortunately, it is these large companies that are being recruited actively by Apple for selling their complete product line, while the long established independents--those with 10 plus years of Apple experience--that are NOT being supported.

iPeon is correct in his statement that this is pure deduction based upon the data available.

meilleure ami

11-26-2003, 08:05 PM

I am cross-pollenating here and I don't know if that is allowed. I have been accused of trolling on another thread, so I thought this may be a more appropriate approach to voice my concerns.

I have found the "noise" over the iPod being defaced quite interesting. How long has this campaign of defacing been going on? Does it pre-date Apple's changing their policy regarding battery replacement? I know for a fact that their offering to replace the iPod's battery for $99 has not always been their policy. In FACT, and this comes directly from an authorized Apple service center, what takes place on the video clip WAS Apple's initial position.

Why did Apple change, I wonder? And, isn't it interesting that Apple HAS changed policy regarding the replacement of the iPod battery but not pursued any action against the Neistat bros. Maybe bad PR isn't the only issue here.

I have been asked if I am reseller trying to use this forum to voice a myopic position. I am an Apple enthusiast who is concerned that Apple's pursuit of the bottom line may wind up costing them their already limited market share.

If Apple is willing to behave nefariously with one element of the population with whom they have had an established working relationship (and this HAS been well documented), what is going to prevent them from continuing this behavior with others?

I also find it hard to swallow when Apple enthusiasts show little tolerance for ANY perceived criticism of Apple corporate. I don't know about you, but it is their PRODUCTS I support. Corporate bottom line functionning is heartless, cold, and as single-minded in its efforts to survive as are reptiles who share these adjectives.

iPeon posted:
. Some of the actions taken when one is faced with a "danger" condition are: Bypass (ignore the junior normally in charge of the activity and handle it personally), handle the situation and any danger in it, reorganize the activity so that the situation does not repeat. Hence it makes perfect sense to me why Apple is doing what it's doing.

What happens if consumer behaviors are perceived by Apple as dangerous? What? Well, it doesn't have to be all that farfetched. What if the almost 30% failure rate that has been posited the iPod currently has begins to eat into the bottom line to such a degree that it becomes a threat to Apple? Will the battery replacement policy be changed back to its original form ? Once the public is saturated with the product--and hopefully for Apple that becomes a reality--we will then be dependent on them to make our iPods work or go to another platform.

The Neistat brothers may have engaged in a publicity stunt for their own aggrandisement. Or, they may be creative folks who, in the spirit of righteous rebellion, got Apple's attention in a way that was effective to make them behave more fairly with their consumers.

What do you think?

Lain

11-26-2003, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
Corporate bottom line functionning is heartless, cold, and as single-minded in its efforts to survive as are reptiles who share these adjectives.

WOW I love that!

Perfectly said.

:D

drewprops

11-26-2003, 08:40 PM

I know some guys who I use for all my tech support, they work as a "licensed Apple reseller". There is another well-established firm near my home who have always specialized in Apple products. It would be a true shame if either (or both) of these firms went under because Apple had changed direction...but Apple did not set out a business plan to support third-party resellers and tech support companies. I expect my investment in Apple to pay off. If they choose to absorb more of the market from these resellers it is completely at their own discretion.

NOW.

The truth is meilleure ami, you are trolling, you're practically living in this thread right now. Using the Socratic Method is a cute technique, but you do have an obvious agenda; something that hinges on third-party resellers. I've considered the topic and really haven't decided what the situation means to me as a customer and as a shareholder, but you're awfully new to these boards and awfully interested in finding fault with the Corporation known as Apple Computer. Don't expect to slide through without getting the occasional straightarm in these forums....we've seen a lot of people come through AppleInsider with a lot of ideas, issues and agendas. Even the folks who make considered opinions aren't going to be swayed by "innocent questions" from someone with a "family member on the inside"....especially when there are a string of threads that all trend in a negative direction using the same posting method.

It's the oldest TROLL in our history.
This thread is DEAD.

meilleure ami

11-28-2003, 12:47 AM

Oh, Magnificent Bastard, you have got my number after all.

It's the oldest TROLL in our history.
This thread is DEAD.

Tell me, what is the purpose of these forums anyway? Is it to share ideas, thoughts, and information or to stroke one another's egos and stoke love of the great Apple mothership and all her babies?

Please, I am new here and yes, I was brought here looking for information, thoughts, etc. about an issue that is near and dear to my heart. I am a humanist, not a techy. As far as I know I do not own stock in Apple but, as I do have holdings in mutual funds and Apple is currently seen as a sound investment, I may in fact be a stockholder.

Why is this issue near and dear to my heart? Simply, after years of doing business with one place that is now suffering in silence--again, I found out about what is going on quite by accident--it got my ire going. And, I had been bedeviled by the Apple mystique, believing that they really were something different. Imagine my surprise when I found out differently. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I don't want to be fooled dewprops.

So I came looking for people who have a LOT more knowledge than me about Apple matters. And I started picking brains to see what I could find. Wow. It has been an educational experience.

You have officially declared that this thread is dead. I have learned much in this process.

I will leave this thread with a question--cute or not, leaving Socates out of this. Why is it that so many people use Windows machines rather than Macs? Having never used a Windows machine--well, that's not entirely true. I TRIED to use Window machines. They were counter intuitive to my non-technical mind and, consequently, much too frustrating. I just don't get it.

Can it be that SO many people are SO wrong? Or, might it be something that Apple itself has done? If that something can be identified, perhaps it can also be fixed...

bunge

11-28-2003, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by meilleure ami
Can it be that SO many people are SO wrong? Or, might it be something that Apple itself has done? If that something can be identified, perhaps it can also be fixed...

Sad troll.

meilleure ami

11-29-2003, 09:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by meilleure ami
Can it be that SO many people are SO wrong? Or, might it be something that Apple itself has done? If that something can be identified, perhaps it can also be fixed...

Sad troll.

OK. So maybe a got a little carried away with myself. It happens sometimes. But, seriously, what do you think some of the reasons are that such a great product line, which is in so many respects far superior to the competition, has such a small following?

I have read that it is an issue of cost, but that can't account for all of it.
I have also read that Apple's innovations have been stolen or copied almost as soon as they are "out of the box" and reduplicated at a much lower cost because of little R&D involved. This issue has been addressed previously in this thread.

So, any other thoughts on this? Incompatibilty with Windows format is something i hear a lot. And, my favorite, there aren't enough games. is this even true, and if so, why aren't there more games available?

I am not a techy so I haven't a clue on that one.