confederate flag

[_ alliance _]

i am disgusted by the number of people in this state who "proudly" display the confederate flag as a means to show pride in their history/culture. when questioned about its role in regards to racism, these people say that the flag represents their southern heritage but in no way represents racism. it is an outrage to hear this, in my opinion. the confederate flag does NOT display texas or southern heritage, but in fact displays a very dark time in this country's history. for these people to take pride in this, but yet deny the flag's true representation is in itself true ignorance or simply bigotry. if you want to represent your state, then put up a texas flag, or better yet, represent your COUNTRY with an american flag (sometimes it seems like texans are more proud to be a texan than to be an american, which in itself is disgusting IMO). how the hell does the confederate flag represent anything other than a racist and terrible time in our history? how can anyone be proud of this?!?! every day that i spend in the south i am more and more disgusted to be here, and every day i have to walk past rooms and pickups with their displayed flags of hate...
just gotta vent this...

[Kickaha]

Hmmm.

Well, I'm a Northwesterner who moved to North Carolina, and have actually changed my mind over this.

I used to think the Confederate flag was on about the same level as a white KKK hood. Obviously racist, etc, etc, etc.

You know what it was originally used for? It was the Confederate Battle Flag, not the flag of the Confederacy. It was the banner for the soldiers, not the politicians, and was used, as most battle flags are, to honor them after the war.

Now, you may disagree with me, and that's fine, but I maintain that the vast majority of soldiers in any conflict are people just like anyone else, and that their deaths deserve some honor. Does that apply to everyone in any conflict? No. But as a general rule? Yes.

The fact that some redneck racist idiots have adopted the flag as a rallying point annoys me to the same point that the fact that my frickin' *CREDIT CARD* has an American flag on it. Both are perverting a symbol of something that should be considered as honorable for other, selfish purposes.

It doesn't mean I hate the symbol though. I've grown to have little problem with the Confederate flag itself... only the ways in which it is absconded with by morons for their own purposes.

If someone honestly and truly believes that it symbolizes, for them, strictly a heritage pride, and does not symbolize racism... then that's what it means, to them. It may mean something different to you. That's the wonderful and infuriating things about symbolism, after all... everyone brings their own interpretation to the table. There is no absolute truth in such things.

[Fellowship]

_ alliance _

We all see things we do not like. I would be willing to bet you are such that you would have a short temper if you had to live in Mexico. They do not drive hondas and of course if they are not honda drivers they must be the scum of the earth.

I see more in your rants that tell something about you more so than what your rants say about "Texas" or "Southerners" I live in DFW and while I drive a truck it does not make me any less "human" or any less "intelligent". You know many hispanic men drive trucks to do work that many white snobs like yourself are "too good" to do. So sit back and talk down people.

What ever makes you happy alliance.

Fellowship

[Eugene]

Bo and Luke Duke were damned racist!

If the Confederate flag had a caricature grinning over a huge slice of watermelon while holding a bucket of fried chicken, then I might agree with you, _ alliance _.

Just like the swastika, the Confederate flag has more than one association. Are you going to force all your local Hindu and Buddhist shrines to have their swastikas removed?

[soulcrusher]

Who cares about the US anyway?

[Fellowship]

_ alliance _

Texas and the "South" are not the only states or areas with "back woods" lower-educated members of the population. You need get out more and you will see that ignorance and less-educated people exist in every state, and indeed in every country. The trick is to live where you can feel comfortable. If you are in an area with a ratio of un-educated to educated that is too high for your standards then you need to re-locate. After all, why stay?

This is not to insult anyone here as I do not care to insult but many in Texas have German backgrounds. Just look at the names of the small towns and look at the names in the phone directory. I have run into some in the smaller towns (outside of the metro area) who have views that I would not agree with and their family goes back to German ancestory. This being said not all Germans are any such way. Just as not all Texans are any such way. I prefer to live in areas and visit areas with educated people vs/ ignorant people but even so we need to help to bring those behind us up to speed if we have a chance.

Again if you are in an area that disturbs you either try to change it one person at a time or move to a place where you feel comfortable. Just starting a rant of a thread is not going to do any good.

Not all Texans live as racist, backwards rednecks. If they were I would be the first to move.

A few Pictures of Dallas for those who think all Texans live in a bigoted, racist, past. (http://homepage.mac.com/fellowship/PhotoAlbum43.html)

We could use less generalizations in this world.

Not all Palestinians are hate-filled terrorists,
Not all Texans or "Southerners" are red-necks.

Can we agree to learn to moderate our Threads?

Fellowship

[Aquafire]

If I may say..

I don't like the Nazi flag one little bit..it makes me shudder.

But on the other hand I actually like the confederate flag because ( politics aside ) it is a beautiful design.

I wish our crappy australian flag was half as well designed..

As regards a "political" comparison, we did get close to our own "rebel " flag..

it is called the Eureka Flag.

http://www.ausflag.com.au/flags/images/eureka.gif

And this is all that remains of the battle torn standard...

http://www.tumblong.uts.edu.au/art/artist2/a2piece05/images/eureka.gif


Most people don't know that many Americans, Irish, Italians ( including a companion of Garibaldi redshirts ) as well as Germans & Poles, all stood beneath its colours..willing to lay down their lives rather than suffer under the oppresive yoke of British colonialism...

And yet, even this flag is tarnished by the subsequent racist violence endured by chinese workers living in Australia ( as coolies ) and who were considered inferior to whites...

So you see, God in his wisdom gave us two eyes, a "good" seeing eye & a "bad" seeing eye. He did this knowing that if we use both eyes together..we will see things as they really are.....

...... A very human mix of good & bad...

[Eugene]

Originally posted by Aquafire
If I may say..

I don't like the Nazi flag one little bit..it makes me shudder.
Well, that's because symbol was corrupted in the first half of the last century. Had the Nazi party not chosen the swastika, I'm sure such a flag wouldn't make you cringe...it's quite generic looking actually...

What's ironic is that the swastika was a symbol of good luck before all that...and in addition to appearing in eastern religions, it has also appeared in celtic, native american and other cultures...

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by Eugene
What's ironic is that the swastika was a symbol of good luck before all that...and in addition to appearing in eastern religions, it has also appeared in celtic, native american and other cultures...

Actually, the swastika was used by the Romans as well, especially the more immoral generations of them.


With respect to the thread at hand though: I once heard a very good explanation as to why exactly the confederate flag might be offensive. It was truly the symbol of an enemy of the United States. The Confederate States were, at one time, more opposed to the US than Iraq and Al Qaeda together are today (maybe because of its kinship). Their flag was the symbol of that enmity. Especially if the following is true:

originally by Kickaha
You know what it was originally used for? It was the Confederate Battle Flag, not the flag of the Confederacy. It was the banner for the soldiers, not the politicians, and was used, as most battle flags are, to honor them after the war.

The US won, and the South today is not part of the Confederate States, but of the United States. Waving the flag of the Confederates therefor is tantamount to treason. It is much like waving a Nazi flag today, or even during WWII. Like waving a Soviet flag during the cold war.

You see it: the biggest problem for the confederates is that they no longer exist to make peace. Waving a Soviet flag now is probably no problem at all. As is waving a Union Jack (which it surely wasn't around 1776). Nazi Germany, however, no longer exists, and its flag will forever signify only one thing, or collection of things.

[Aquafire]

With the greatest respect..( comparing the confederacy with the Iraqi ~al qeda situation ) is absolute bollocks. Whom ever you are quoting as a source is talking out of their proverbial R~s.

In the initial stages the civil war was fought along State Vs Union grounds...& was about whether or not the states (who had all voluntarily joined the Union ) had the right to leave when they wished. It was about secession. Slavery was the trigger but NOT the central issue. Slavery only became the issue of focus after the Gettysburg address by Lincoln.

Most southern farmers were poor and never owned any slaves. On top of that, there were many "northeners who were 'racist' Proof of this lies in the many race riots that occured in New York & other places during the period of the civil war.

It is an interesting fact that Lincoln did not get elected on the anti-Slave issue. That came later. Initially he campaigned on the "Republic " issue.

And last but not least..the Confederate Flag was never outlawed by the federal government. As early as 1901 documentary film footage depicted old rebels unfurling the flag and carrying it in procession side by side with the union flag..

So much for it being an act of treason....

[Eugene]

Originally posted by der Kopf
With respect to the thread at hand though: I once heard a very good explanation as to why exactly the confederate flag might be offensive. It was truly the symbol of an enemy of the United States. The Confederate States were, at one time, more opposed to the US than Iraq and Al Qaeda together are today (maybe because of its kinship). Their flag was the symbol of that enmity.
Man, you heard wrong. They weren't enemies of the Union states, per se. They were enemies of what the Union states had decided to force upon them. In one fell swoop, slavery would have been gone, which was what fueled the Southern economy. They weren't fighting because of hatred...they were fighting out of desperation.

The US won, and the South today is not part of the Confederate States, but of the United States. Waving the flag of the Confederates therefor is tantamount to treason. It is much like waving a Nazi flag today, or even during WWII. Like waving a Soviet flag during the cold war.
The US shouldn't believe in censorship either, right? to what end anyway...

You see it: the biggest problem for the confederates is that they no longer exist to make peace. Waving a Soviet flag now is probably no problem at all. As is waving a Union Jack (which it surely wasn't around 1776). Nazi Germany, however, no longer exists, and its flag will forever signify only one thing, or collection of things.
What's this about peace? Isn't surrendering making peace?

[Kickaha]

What's truly ironic, is that in another 30 years the South would have had to give up slavery of their own volition due to industrialization. Mechanized industrial systems were already established in the North, and while there was some resistance (strong in some areas) in the South against such, the sheer economics would have forced them to adapt or go under.

The North industrialized sooner, and was able to (forced to?) give up on slavery a few years before... they weren't really any better, in my opinion, when it came to race issues, just that the economics tipped the balance there before the South.

Then comes the secession issue, and blammo... slavery becomes the topic to fight over because it was seen as a primary difference that *could* be fought over. (Cynical me - good reason *to* fight over... but not the prime reason in this case, I do believe... it was the WMD issue of the day.)

I wonder what this country (countries?) would be like today if the Civil War hadn't happened, and the South had migrated to mechanized farming on its own, with its economic strength intact. Might be a very different continent.

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by Eugene
Man, you heard wrong. They weren't enemies of the Union states, per se. They were enemies of what the Union states had decided to force upon them. In one fell swoop, slavery would have been gone, which was what fueled the Southern economy. They weren't fighting because of hatred...they were fighting out of desperation.

Very hazy territory you are entering there. So they weren't ennemies per se? I guess the fact (http://www.bergen.org/civilwar/prosecut/theloss/losses.html) that

More Americans died in the Civil War than in all of America's other wars combined

with, on the North side

67,058 were killed in action, while 43,012 later died of battle wounds

is not enmity, just a difference of opinion? I wonder what would've have happened if they'd actually been mad at each other. But, it turns out that it was all a friendly barroom brawl. Phew!

The US shouldn't believe in censorship either, right? to what end anyway...

Nobody here has called for a ban on the rag. My stance would be: private citizens do what they want, and I'm free to think that confederate flag waving jackasses are brainless apemen with very little, if any at all, forehead. However, when the government itself starts waving that flag, something should be done. Was there not some animosity about the fact that South Carolina's government mansion or something had the flag waving on top?

What's this about peace? Isn't surrendering making peace?

Well, now it is I who dwell in the hazy fields. I'm saying: The Soviet Union and Germany, to name two, have made peace with the US, and now have a completely (or at least very) different relationship to it. Therefore, the Soviet Union's flag signifies today's relatively friendly Soviet Union. The same holds for Germany's flag. The Confederation, however, ceased to exist after the Civil War, and it's relationship to the US has therefore never been revisited. It is therefore possible to believe that the confederate flag is a symbol of an ennemy, and waving it is betrayal. It's a mental construct. I don't know if I can put it much clearer (and thereby, I complain about my lack of skills rather than yours).

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
_ alliance _

We all see things we do not like. I would be willing to bet you are such that you would have a short temper if you had to live in Mexico. They do not drive hondas and of course if they are not honda drivers they must be the scum of the earth.

I see more in your rants that tell something about you more so than what your rants say about "Texas" or "Southerners" I live in DFW and while I drive a truck it does not make me any less "human" or any less "intelligent". You know many hispanic men drive trucks to do work that many white snobs like yourself are "too good" to do. So sit back and talk down people.

What ever makes you happy alliance.

Fellowship


hmm...good discussion so far--but what's all this about hondas and trucks? i didnt say anything about any of this...
only that the flag is displayed quite often on the backs of pickups.
btw, i am mexican, so i dont think your comparison is valid. sorry fellow. ;)
every post in this thread has been relevant, except for the exception of some of fellowships, which is mostly due to the fact that he lives here, so he must see it as a personal attack...

oh, and you dont see the confederate flag in the cities, only in the small towns, a la College Station.
and when you say that i need to "get out more," i find that amusing. i was born and raised in california, where you dont see this sort of thing, so thats part of why it surprises me to see so many southerners waving their confederate flags with pride in the 21st century...

[_ alliance _]

i still dont understand why i see more confederate flags being hung by the residents around here than i do american flags...
that's one of my biggest concerns. i am proud to be an AMERICAN. these people are segregating themselves from the rest of the country, and openly state that the south is better than the rest--then again if i hear "proud to be a texan" one more time, i'm gonna hurl. bah, i guess i can't understand how someone is more proud to be a member of a state or a dead country than to be part of the USA...

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by Eugene
Bo and Luke Duke were damned racist!

If the Confederate flag had a caricature grinning over a huge slice of watermelon while holding a bucket of fried chicken, then I might agree with you, _ alliance _.

Just like the swastika, the Confederate flag has more than one association. Are you going to force all your local Hindu and Buddhist shrines to have their swastikas removed?


yes, it has more than one association outside the south, perhaps. but if you were here, instead of in your sheltered existence in california, you might not think the same way...
don't forget, i have a similar perspective as you, except that i have lived both in california and the south--get back to me once you've done both and then see if you agree with your original comments...

[midwinter]

Why do Texans want to fly the confederate flag anyway? I mean, jeez. Only 1/4 of Texas can even be considered Southern to begin with (everything east of I-35). Hell, you can't even get sweet tea in Dallas, so far as I can tell.

What chaps my hide is when rednecks from non-Southern states go flying the confederate flag. That's MY history. Go get your own. They don't understand that in order to fly that flag, you have to carry around a lot of baggage.

Cheers
Scott

[thuh Freak]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
i still dont understand why i see more confederate flags being hung by the residents around here than i do american flags...
that's one of my biggest concerns. i am proud to be an AMERICAN. these people are segregating themselves from the rest of the country, and openly state that the south is better than the rest--then again if i hear "proud to be a texan" one more time, i'm gonna hurl. bah, i guess i can't understand how someone is more proud to be a member of a state or a dead country than to be part of the USA...

i'm more proud to be a new yorker than an american. there are a lot of things i don't like about the country, and less things i don't like about the city. and the city roolz.

as for the flag issue, well i dont know. i don't know if u can tell, just by looking at someone if they are a racist. if they are waving or displaying the flag as a symbol of racism, its wrong. if its a matter of pride for what their ancestors did, that's another issue. i proudly carry around my great-[great-..]-grandfather's last name. (well, for the sake of anonymity, i don't tell you potential online molestors and narcs) i am proud of Erin, and near all she's produced. she has lost wars and battles, but i'd still wave her flag, even after extinction.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
yes, it has more than one association outside the south, perhaps. but if you were here, instead of in your sheltered existence in california, you might not think the same way...
don't forget, i have a similar perspective as you, except that i have lived both in california and the south--get back to me once you've done both and then see if you agree with your original comments...

I hate to tell you, but Texas ain't the South. Go hop on I-10 or I-20 and drive over to Mississippi, Alabama, or Georgia if you want to see the South. Do ya'll even have kudzu over in College Station?

Cheers
Scott

[JimDreamworx]

Originally posted by Eugene
Just like the swastika, the Confederate flag has more than one association. Are you going to force all your local Hindu and Buddhist shrines to have their swastikas removed?

I have seen a situation where this was tried, but it was a restaurant. Since it wasn't a place of worship, but a business, some locals tried to get them to get rid of that "hateful symbol." Didn't work, as it seems that culture has a history that goes further back than the 1900s.

Considering that symbols are the basis of characters in our alphabets, doesn't it make sense to say they are protected as free speech?

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by JimDreamworx
I have seen a situation where this was tried, but it was a restaurant. Since it wasn't a place of worship, but a business, some locals tried to get them to get rid of that "hateful symbol." Didn't work, as it seems that culture has a history that goes further back than the 1900s.

Considering that symbols are the basis of characters in our alphabets, doesn't it make sense to say they are protected as free speech?


of course it's legal to display them, i just don't understand why anyone would want to...
to piss people off?

[JimDreamworx]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
why anyone would want to...
to piss people off?

That depends. Who is getting pissed off. With a swastika, it's pretty obvious, the vast majority; but within that culture, if such an ancient symbol is not given its proper "respect", members of that culture could be offended.

But back to the confederate flag. Yeah, usually it is to piss people off. But then again, so are many other forms of free speech.
You mentioned being "proud" of the symbol - what benefit is there to such pride in an inanimate object? The same pride in flipping the bird to the driver that cuts you off.

[Towel]

I think one of the problems is that the confederate battle flag was itself corrupted in the 50s and 60s by its use as a anti-civil rights rallying symbol. Its use in southern state flags and in front of state houses, etc, doesn't go back to the civil war, but only to pro-segregationist protests in the middle part of this century. That, IMO, is when it stopped standing mostly for the valor and bravery of southern patriots and started standing mostly for keeping the black folks down.

Which makes you think a little further. Why use the battle flag as a rallying point for opposing civil rights and maintaining segregation? What did all that have to do with the civil war? Everything, of course. Secession = slavery = maintaining a society where the poorest white was part of the ruling class. None can be separated from the others; all exist in perfect symbiosis. The south was unwilling to return to the union with limits on slavery, and was unwilling to arm slaves until just a month before the end in 1865.

So maybe the flag could have stood as a (relatively) harmless symbol of southern heritage, had it been used only in that way since the war. But its use in the 50s and 60s betrayed it for what it was, and is: a symbol of the Cause, with everything that implies.

[groverat]

In defense of Texas...

_alliance_ goes to school at Texas A&M University in College Station, Texas.

A&M is where you send your little xenophobic mullet children when they whine about different colored and those who speak different languages.

We, as Texans, have managed to push most of the racist rednecks in the direction of A&M and we one day hope to get them all on a big boat with the promise of lots of sheep to :):):):) and send the boat out to sea.

I am sorry for the unsightly nature of these morons, the boat is still being built and as the rednecks breed like roaches the design has to be changed to accomodate more and more Aggies.

Please do not judge the entire state by looking at Aggies, they are pathetic and non-representative.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by groverat

Please do not judge the entire state by looking at Aggies, they are pathetic and non-representative.

And they got their butts kicked by OU a couple of weeks ago.

Cheers
Scott

[SCARECROW]

Well, I am proud of the Confederate Flag, because it IS part of my history, and my state's history.

We proudly fly the flag in our 7 flags display right at the city border, and it is also flown over our state's capital building.

http://www.650motorcycles.com/83102k.jpg

It is actually part of our state flag, for that matter.

http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/flags/images/ms_fi.gif

SO, how can you be so ignorant?

Dont you have better things to do than worry about something that your yankee ass has no clue about to begin with?

You know, we have undergone several petitions, general elections, etc.. to try and remove our flag.. all because of ignorant outsiders who see only what they want to see, and only believe what they want to believe. Each attempt at removing,replacing,altering our flag, has been handily defeated by extremely wide margins. Even with massive tv/radio campaigns funded by liberal idiots like yourself..

You know why? Because we are proud of our history, our heritage, and we are true. We dont have to live behind stupid PC agendas.

Get over yourself...and if you would ever come down to the south, you would see that it is a non-issue, and that you are a fool.


Sorry, to be so aggressive, but your post really irks me.:grumble:

[rok]

what i love are the pickup trucks 'round here that have the confederate flag on one side, and "united we stand" on the other.

make up what little mind you have! :lol:

[groverat]

I'm proud of the South, so proud in fact that I can't wait for the day when all the rebel flag carrying morons are all killed in a stadium collapse at a NASCAR event.

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by SCARECROW
Because we are proud of our history, our heritage, and we are true.

What part exactly? Enslaving generations of human beings? Ruthlessly beating those generations? Impregnating the daughters of those generations?

Or maybe you are proud of keeping down the generations following those enslaved generations? Directing them towards the back of the bus? Or denying them access to decent centers of education? Or of gutting 14 year old boys who have the audacity to wink at a white woman (Emmett Till)?

Maybe you are proud of being the nurturing ground for nutcases like the KKK?

I don't know. I'm asking. What exactly are you proud of? :???:

[der Kopf]

And by the way, do you know where the other part of your flag came from? Look closely:

http://www.zaan.be/other/ms.gif

Imagine clipping off the side with the nazi cross. Then turning it all 90° counterclockwise. What do you see? Yep. Check your atlases.

http://www.zaan.be/other/fr.gif

It's France! Talk about opposites attracting!

[rok]

um, scarecrow, i have lived in the south almost my entire life. it's not an issue because you're ignoring it. but to say that the flag is a symbol of southern pride and/or heritage is an inherent acceptance of all the history that went into the development of that culture. period.

[chu_bakka]

Somebody put a hose on scarecrows burning cross.

Unless of course it's not offending anyone.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by SCARECROW
Well, I am proud of the Confederate Flag, because it IS part of my history, and my state's history.

...

Dont you have better things to do than worry about something that your yankee ass has no clue about to begin with?

...

Get over yourself...and if you would ever come down to the south, you would see that it is a non-issue, and that you are a fool.



Heh.

I'm from MS, too.

[Beige_G3]

Interestingly I find Houston far more open-minded than my hometown Chicago. I think we do a much better job of living together here than back in Chicago where we had annual Nazi and skinhead marches and where white people move in the middle of the night at the first sign of people of color moving into the neighboorhood. The north likes to point a finger at the South, but perhaps a mirror would be more appropriate.

Remember the Nazis in "The Blues Brothers"? They really did march in that park every summer. I lived a few blocks away.

[addabox]

Originally posted by der Kopf
What part exactly? Enslaving generations of human beings? Ruthlessly beating those generations? Impregnating the daughters of those generations?

Or maybe you are proud of keeping down the generations following those enslaved generations? Directing them towards the back of the bus? Or denying them access to decent centers of education? Or of gutting 14 year old boys who have the audacity to wink at a white woman (Emmett Till)?

Maybe you are proud of being the nurturing ground for nutcases like the KKK?

I don't know. I'm asking. What exactly are you proud of? :???:

Well, what are we proud of when we fly the American flag? The most extensive genocide in the history of the planet? Generations, nation wide , of relegating blacks to second class status? Generations of women denied enfranchisement? Internment of Japanese Americans during WWII?

Apparently it is possible to have pride in a faulty vessel.

[Kickaha]

I've gotta say, I've seen less blatant racism living in NC than I did living in WA. :/

What there is down here is *socioeconomic* elitism. It's an extension of the British class system, massaged by 400 years of slight separation. 'White trash' is a *serious* insult here. It insinuates that you are quite literally worthless, regardless of your skin color. The fact that most African-Americans feel disenfranchised here is, I honestly believe, more a product of the pseudo-caste system based on wealth than it is one of skin color. The latter is just an easier target for people to home in on when they don't have the intellect to come up with anything else to hate people for.



Hmmm. No sleep in 32 hours makes the above muddled. I have a point, really. :P

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by Kickaha
I've gotta say, I've seen less blatant racism living in NC than I did living in WA. :/

Hmmm. No sleep in 32 hours makes the above muddled. I have a point, really. :P

You better get some sleep!!!

Fellows;)

[applenut]

Originally posted by der Kopf
What part exactly? Enslaving generations of human beings? Ruthlessly beating those generations? Impregnating the daughters of those generations?

Or maybe you are proud of keeping down the generations following those enslaved generations? Directing them towards the back of the bus? Or denying them access to decent centers of education? Or of gutting 14 year old boys who have the audacity to wink at a white woman (Emmett Till)?

Maybe you are proud of being the nurturing ground for nutcases like the KKK?

I don't know. I'm asking. What exactly are you proud of? :???:

yea, because the American flag doesn't "symbolize" any of that either
:rolleyes:

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by addabox
Well, what are we proud of when we fly the American flag?

I question I often ask myself, watching flag-toting cretins all over the place. But we were talking about the confederate flag, and I don't think changing the subject is a good or fruitful discussion strategy.

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by applenut
yea, because the American flag doesn't "symbolize" any of that either
:rolleyes:

See above. I'm sure the South-African flag symbolizes a lot of nastiness, as does the Belgian flag, but we are not talking about those. Sheesh.

And for the sake of completion: you will never find me waving, nay, displaying, an American flag (or any other flag) from any pole, car, piece of clothing or whatever, so you may as well pull those rolleyes back into thine skull, for they are not needed here.

[SCARECROW]

Look...

I am not racist at all.

I was born in Louisiana, raised in Orange County, California, and have recently moved back to the south(Mississippi).

And you know what, the south has sooo much less crap, stupid agendas, and overall idiots, than anywhere else that I have lived, including the all-righteous California.

It is a Non-issue here, because it just doesnt matter. We are proud of our heritage(good or bad) and we aren't afraid of our past. Sure, some things happened that we are not proud of, but we have worked a long time and come a long way. We have learned from mistakes in the past, and have grown from them.

Unlike most other states, that seem to be doing nothing but rehashing old issues and never making any true progress.

People who do not live here, do not know anything about this issue. They need to figure out their own problems and stop trying to fix things that don't need to be fixed.

There is nothing wrong with the south. Nothing more than any other states in the union. In fact, I think the south has actually come to terms with things from the past and has grown so much more than other states.

If you don't like the rebel flag, fine. If you think the south is just a bunch of red neck nascar fans, fine..

But stop perpetuating stereotypes and misinformation. Its FUD, and you dont know what you are talking about. Keep it to yourself.

[Eugene]

der Kopf, don't be stupid. The reason so many people died was because:

1) The battlefield was so close to home
2) It was the last American war that wasn't mechanized
3) It lasted longer than American involvement in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam.

Jeez, it wasn't because they hated the other side more. I'm sure Americans hated the Triple Alliance, Axis and Vietcong plenty...

[Eugene]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
yes, it has more than one association outside the south, perhaps. but if you were here, instead of in your sheltered existence in california, you might not think the same way...
Now you're just being a shmuck, because you don't know my influences at all.

Why doesn't Kickaha have the same perspective as you since he's lived in the Northwest and South? And he lives in the TRUE South mind you.

[thuh Freak]

Originally posted by Eugene
[The American Civil War] lasted longer than American involvement in [...] Vietnam.
not true. civil war: 1861-65. america enters vietnam in 64 and leaves in 73.
65-61=4. 73-64=9. 9>4.

[Eugene]

Originally posted by thuh Freak
not true. civil war: 1861-65. america enters vietnam in 64 and leaves in 73.
65-61=4. 73-64=9. 9>4.
Tough to say really. The first combat ready troops arrived in 1965 and the first major engagement wasn't till the end of that year. The withdrawl process actually began in 1969.

Abraham Lincoln declared an end to slavery in 1860.

[Kickaha]

Originally posted by Eugene
Now you're just being a shmuck, because you don't know my influences at all.

Why doesn't Kickaha have the same perspective as you since he's lived in the Northwest and South? And he lives in the TRUE South mind you.

Oh, that's because I'm a card carrying member of the KKK and NASCAR Fan Club, of course. :P


I have to admit, living here for a while really hammered home the fact that only the winners of a war write the history books. :/ It's eye-opening to live in an area that has actually undergone occupation and systematic destruction of an economic base. Two sides to every story, yadda yadda yadda.

I'm about as socially liberal as you're going to find, honestly, but I'm also a cynical bastard when it comes to written histories. What I was spoon-fed as a child regarding the Civil War wasn't any better than what I was told regarding the Vietnam War. Both were much messier than anyone ever let on, but only be portraying them as clear cut issues can they be sanitized for future generations. :P

[chu_bakka]

I don't think the south is racist. Racism is all over the place... but it's only the south that has a symbol of that PAST... and to fly the flag does wink at that history. "Ahh the good ol days."

But it's the narrowmindedness of thinking it's ok to offend alot of people because... "it's part of my history so get over it.

If a german was flying a red nazi flag in his front yard... would you think "hey he must be german... I'm sure he's not prejudiced at all... it's just part of his history"?

You can't be proud of part of your history and expect eveyone to ignore the rest.... because you want to ignore it.

The north and south didn't fight a civil war over "traditonal values" or taxes... the Rebel flag is a battle flag... created as the National flag for the states that wanted to succeed from the union. That's why the south was united. Why is it such a great thing to be proud of? Is the south one monolithic state now... are Georgians the same as Alabamans?

Hey if your proud of where your from... fly your state flag... then you seperate the confederacy from being a proud southerner.

[addabox]

Originally posted by der Kopf
I question I often ask myself, watching flag-toting cretins all over the place. But we were talking about the confederate flag, and I don't think changing the subject is a good or fruitful discussion strategy.

The question at hand is "Why would people choose to display the Confederate flag when it has so many distasteful associations?

One way to answer that is to consider why people would display any flag.

For instance: what do you say to the native American that lives next door when he tells you he finds the American flag offensive? If you're like most Americans, probably something like "Get over it". That is, get over the whole wiping out most of your people and consigning the pitiful remnents to the most godforsaken chunks land available.

But the general idea is that "sense-of-tribal-belonging" trumps the past, even when aggrieved members of that past make their unhappiness known.

Now the notion among many Americans seems to be that the Confederate flag stands for only the worst aspects of southern history, and that those that choose to display it are championing those values.

I happen to think that this is no more true than believing that the American flag represents, for those that display it, an endorsement of the darkest chapters in American history-- that is, somewhat true but not necessarily the main sentiment.

In other words, "sense-of-tribal-belonging" is the real motive here, for better or worse.

Personally, I have no use for any of it, but my southern upbringing obliges me to speak to the issue.

[SCARECROW]

"Hey if your proud of where your from... fly your state flag... then you seperate the confederacy from being a proud southerner."


I do... only problem is that our state flag has the rebel flag incorporated in it. :D

[Eugene]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
I don't think the south is racist. Racism is all over the place... but it's only the south that has a symbol of that PAST... and to fly the flag does wink at that history. "Ahh the good ol days."

But it's the narrowmindedness of thinking it's ok to offend alot of people because... "it's part of my history so get over it.

If a german was flying a red nazi flag in his front yard... would you think "hey he must be german... I'm sure he's not prejudiced at all... it's just part of his history"?
Sure, and Mercedes-Benz built engines for the German Messerschmitts and Japanese Zeros. Does that make the Benz emblem a symbol of the evil Axis?

Would you extend the inappropriateness of the swastika to Jainism, Hinduism and Buddhism?

[chu_bakka]

And it was incorporated into the flag probably in the late 40's or 50's... I think if that's what the state is doing now... that's fine... but the confederacy doesn't exist anymore.

I think that if you fly any flag you have to be willing to deal with the consequences... you can't tell anyone to get over it.

[chu_bakka]

You can't be serious.

How many hindus fly a red flag with the swastika on it?

How many flags in "modern" times have had the swastika on it?

[SCARECROW]

"I think that if you fly any flag you have to be willing to deal with the consequences... you can't tell anyone to get over it."


Actually, I can... Get over it.:lol:

There are too many other issues that are much more important.

[addabox]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
And it was incorporated into the flag probably in the late 40's or 50's... I think if that's what the state is doing now... that's fine... but the confederacy doesn't exist anymore.

I think that if you fly any flag you have to be willing to deal with the consequences... you can't tell anyone to get over it.

I completely agree.

My point is that the passions of the "southerner" who bridles at being asked to remove "his" flag are of the same general nature as the "American" who resents ditto.

The fact that the US is a current political entity and the Confederacy is gone with the wind just speaks to the persistance of tribalism and the history of north/south relations and doesn't make it a different thing altogether.

[chu_bakka]

Then you have to deal with the consequences.

People thinking you're racist is one of them.

And if you're ok with it. What does that say about you?

[addabox]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
Then you have to deal with the consequences.

People thinking you're racist is one of them.

And if you're ok with it. What does that say about you?

I'm mostly devil's advocating here, but:

What does it say about the American flag waver when for many around the globe the US flag has become a symbol of imperialism and the raw exercise of power? Mostly that the American flag waver is likely to be surrounded by the like minded, with the offended comfortably across the water.

[SCARECROW]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
Then you have to deal with the consequences.

People thinking you're racist is one of them.

And if you're ok with it. What does that say about you?

------------------



Oooh! What a conundrum. Thanks for making me think about something other than my sister!

:rolleyes:

[_ alliance _]

hahahahha
silly grover...
i have never seen a mullet here at A&M, but whatever...
austin is the only place in this state that isnt incredible conservative, so you got that whole segregation part backwards. it is AUSTIN that is different from the rest of texas, and not the other way around. stop denying it--i have lived here long enough and been across the state enough times to see this.
i know you want to be proud of your state, but you have to accept it for what it is...


Originally posted by groverat
In defense of Texas...

_alliance_ goes to school at Texas A&M University in College Station, Texas.

A&M is where you send your little xenophobic mullet children when they whine about different colored and those who speak different languages.

We, as Texans, have managed to push most of the racist rednecks in the direction of A&M and we one day hope to get them all on a big boat with the promise of lots of sheep to :):):):) and send the boat out to sea.

I am sorry for the unsightly nature of these morons, the boat is still being built and as the rednecks breed like roaches the design has to be changed to accomodate more and more Aggies.

Please do not judge the entire state by looking at Aggies, they are pathetic and non-representative.

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by groverat
I can't wait for the day when all the rebel flag carrying morons are all killed in a stadium collapse at a NASCAR event.


haha, finally something i agree with grover on. :)

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by Eugene
Now you're just being a shmuck, because you don't know my influences at all.




exactly! now listen to what you just wrote and maybe you'll understand your hypocrisy from earlier in the thread and undestand how silly you're coming off as...

[_ alliance _]

well said.


Originally posted by chu_bakka
I don't think the south is racist. Racism is all over the place... but it's only the south that has a symbol of that PAST... and to fly the flag does wink at that history. "Ahh the good ol days."

But it's the narrowmindedness of thinking it's ok to offend alot of people because... "it's part of my history so get over it.

If a german was flying a red nazi flag in his front yard... would you think "hey he must be german... I'm sure he's not prejudiced at all... it's just part of his history"?

You can't be proud of part of your history and expect eveyone to ignore the rest.... because you want to ignore it.

The north and south didn't fight a civil war over "traditonal values" or taxes... the Rebel flag is a battle flag... created as the National flag for the states that wanted to succeed from the union. That's why the south was united. Why is it such a great thing to be proud of? Is the south one monolithic state now... are Georgians the same as Alabamans?

Hey if your proud of where your from... fly your state flag... then you seperate the confederacy from being a proud southerner.

[Eugene]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
You can't be serious.

How many hindus fly a red flag with the swastika on it?

How many flags in "modern" times have had the swastika on it?
You can't be serious.

Ever go to a Buddhist monastery? At least the ones in Asia often have banners with swastikas on them, sometimes they look uncannily like the Nazi flag...red background, white circle, black swastika.

[chu_bakka]

Well I think it all depends on where our place as a nation rests in world perception. At any given moment.

I'm sure at certain points in time the USA is loved. Sometimes it's hated. Sometimes a mix of emotions.. ambiguity.

The USA exists... so the perception of the flag is fluid and constantly changing.... to most people.

That's the difference between it and the rebel flag. the rebel flag IS a historical symbol... it doesn't represent anything that exist today other than history or attitiudes associated with that history.

I'm sure all countries have things they're not proud of... or history that they would like to forget... and sometimes nations change their flags because of it. Like germany or south africa... didn't japan change it's flag?... probably wrong... sonething about the rising sun flag... ANYWAY.

I saw protesters wrapped in american flags at trafalgar square ... holding signs that say.. "I'm proud of my country... shamed by its president"

[Eugene]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
exactly! now listen to what you just wrote and maybe you'll understand your hypocrisy from earlier in the thread and undestand how silly you're coming off as...
Why am I being silly? I'm not the one calling others sheltered. I'm calling you a shmuck because you're calling me sheltered. I didn't once identify you as anything of the sort because I felt it was unnecessary.

Anyway, take it as you will, but I'm actually glad people fly the Confederate flag. It's like an early warning system.

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by Eugene
It's like an early warning system.


to what?

[Eugene]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
to what?
To a possibility.

[chu_bakka]

It's all about context.

Would my german neighbor be flying a Buddhist flag?

would my buddhist neighbor fly a rebel flag?

[addabox]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
Well I think it all depends on where our place as a nation rests in world perception. At any given moment.

I'm sure at certain points in time the USA is loved. Sometimes it's hated. Sometimes a mix of emotions.. ambiguity.

The USA exists... so the perception of the flag is fluid and constantly changing.... to most people.

That's the difference between it and the rebel flag. the rebel flag IS a historical symbol... it doesn't represent anything that exist today other than history or attitiudes associated with that history.

I'm sure all countries have things they're not proud of... or history that they would like to forget... and sometimes nations change their flags because of it. Like germany or south africa... didn't japan change it's flag?... probably wrong... sonething about the rising sun flag... ANYWAY.

I saw protesters wrapped in american flags at trafalgar square ... holding signs that say.. "I'm proud of my country... shamed by its president"

Good point.

I'm not all that enthusiastic about defending the damn thing, mostly I just dislike the national idea that the south is a convenient depository for all the bad thoughts the nation as a whole refuses to confront.

[_ alliance _]

ok, here's another question:

i've seen quite a few people wearing shirts, on the back there's a picture of the confederate flag, across which is written somethin like, "the south will rise again" or "rebels rise."

is this also acceptable?

[Eugene]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
It's all about context.

Would my german neighbor be flying a Buddhist flag?

would my buddhist neighbor fly a rebel flag?
Okay, now is slavery the really the only connotation of the rebel flag? Are you ready to label somebody as racist for flying the Confederate flag without actually knowing who he is? He could just be ignorant in your eyes...or prideful in others'.

[der Kopf]

I can't but frown on Jim Crow, uh, I mean SCARECROW (... ok it's a JOKE! Sheesh! I wish you'd all lighten up, like, already!) when he says something like


I'm proud of my history


Rubbing many of you against the hairs, but it's shit, nay, drek like this that make this world a bad place. Who gave you the right to be proud of your heritage? What did YOU ever do to make it something to be proud of?

Der Kopf's first law of morality (or second, the golden rule -which I didn't come up with either- comes first):

Never take pride in another man's work.

What's so bad about it, you ask? You are implicitly stating that there is someone else somewhere, with another heritage that is worse than yours. Is that bad, you ask again? Yes it is. I say. The image most immediately presenting itself (to me at least) is a grim one: British skinheads chasing a pakky (Pakistani, Indian or Bengali) and beating him to death.

If anyone here can not follow the series of logical consequences I've drawn here, let him speak up, for his bede shall be answered by der Kopf.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
hahahahha
silly grover...
i have never seen a mullet here at A&M, but whatever...
austin is the only place in this state that isnt incredible conservative, so you got that whole segregation part backwards. it is AUSTIN that is different from the rest of texas, and not the other way around. stop denying it--i have lived here long enough and been across the state enough times to see this.
i know you want to be proud of your state, but you have to accept it for what it is...

You have got to realize that in "ANY" state in the Union there are going to be "back woods" people who live out in small towns who are very reluctant to embrace multi-cultural pluralistic urban living. Talk Texas down all you want I still maintain this thread says more about you loving to bash Texas than about Texas itself.

You are on your high horse and you have to put "texas" in a place to make yourself feel better.

Austin is not the only moderate place in Texas. Most of the Metro areas of Texas are very metropolitan, pluralistic, and tolerant. Not only Austin. Dallas has a female mayor who happens to be a Democrat.

If you are out in the sticks you and only you can make a change for the better and find an urban setting to live in.

I still think this thread is all about you wanting to be better than the entire state of Texas and you putting Texas in a place. It really is a dark side of you. You talk about Texas as a place of being "incredible conservative" so I suppose the "liberal" policies in Los Angeles has been good for all the homeless? What exactly are you saying?

Conservative = Confederate flag waving?

Be honest with your self and realize that not all texans are any one thing. Not all conservatives are any one thing. Not all of any group is any such thing.

You really like to group an entire population and hold them in a bad light. You can do that all you wish. Again it is my argument that this says much more about yourself than those you speak of.

Fellowship

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
You are on your high horse and you have to put "texas" in a place to make yourself feel better.

Fellowship, remember what the teacher taught us.

Rule #1 of AppleOutsider:

Never take it personal!

[addabox]

Fellows,

I have family in Texas (Schulenberg) and they are the salt of the earth. Even though I fear the political products of lone star land, you're right to defend her against the cheap shots of Smug Yankee Contempt.

[chu_bakka]

I think that there are cultural distinctions that can't be avoided.. paradoxii? paradoxes...

Many more blacks and whites live in proximity to each other and get along probably much better than anywhere else in the country in the south. But the KKK still has a following. And David Duke was really popular for a while, wasn't he?

I think a big difference is the bible belt... evangelicals and fundamentalism is much more pervasive there than in most other regions of the US... and for some... like me... I can't relate to that at all.

It's also really easy to pidgeon hole the south because of perception versus reality... but there is some truth to the perception... which makes it harder to ignore.

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
You are on your high horse and you have to put "texas" in a place to make yourself feel better.


I still think this thread is all about you wanting to be better than the entire state of Texas and you putting Texas in a place. It really is a dark side of you. You talk about Texas as a place of being "incredible conservative" so I suppose the "liberal" policies in Los Angeles has been good for all the homeless? What exactly are you saying?

Conservative = Confederate flag waving?

Be honest with your self and realize that not all texans are any one thing. Not all conservatives are any one thing. Not all of any group is any such thing.

You really like to group an entire population and hold them in a bad light. You can do that all you wish. Again it is my argument that this says much more about yourself than those you speak of.

Fellowship


i made an observation about the confederate flag that i noticed while living in texas, but never anywhere else. i didnt say that ALL texans are like this--i have plenty of educated friends who agree with this observation and are still proud to be texans. they are good people, but they dont go around waving rebel flags and claiming it to be a good way to show pride of heritage.
you just dont like me saying anything negative about your damn state, but i have issues with much of the country--this thread just happens to deal with texas as a convenient example. stop bitching at me because i have an opinion--texas aint perfect, so accept it. i accept it, but i still expect better of us. i expect people to be able to acknowledge that the confederacy represented a dark time in our country's history and that what it represents (like it or not, but it is RACISM) is not something to be proud of.

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Fellowship, remember what the teacher taught us.

Rule #1 of AppleOutsider:

Never take it personal!


exactly. i cant say anything negative about texas, or else he starts ranting away about how i'm out to get him and his beloved state. california aint perfect, and texas sure as hell aint either. get over it.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Fellowship, remember what the teacher taught us.

Rule #1 of AppleOutsider:

Never take it personal!

My feelings are never hurt when people speak ignorance. What people say only reflects on themselves. This is always true.

I am an adult and can face any music anyone has to put forward. When I see the overall balance in a different light than does _ Alliance _ that does not make me right and him wrong, or him right and me wrong. I think we could both be right with what we have seen. My point is that _ Alliance _ needs to do something constructive like move back to CA or whrere ever if he is going to constantly cry about where he has to live. It really is ignorant to put ones self through hell if you could live anywhere in the world but you make yourself live somewhere as bad as Texas for heavans sake.

I went to Paris France and it was a very culturally rich and very beautiful city. However there are things about the place I did not like at all. If I were to move to Paris and raise hell about all the things I don't like about the place with the locals I think it would get on their nerves after a while. Nobody is forcing _Alliance_ to live where he does. I am saying he can have his opinion all he wants. I just will also set the record in a more moderate tone because to present Texas and Southerners as if we are backwards is not something I am going to just sit back and allow to go without a rebuttal. I am not defending any and all bad things that happen in Texas or the South. I am not looking the other way or pretending that Texas or the South has never done any wrong or that some in Texas or the South still do some wrong things. I am trying to let _Alliance_ know that he is painting with a wide paint brush to make himself seem better than those that he is critical of. I think in his process of being on the high horse he is actually being more bigoted and ignorant than those he points his finger at.

That is all I am saying in this thread.

Mature adults should not generalize and put people into groups.

I am saying in fewer words that the world is much more complex and beautiful than the simplistic views that sometimes get circulated such that.

All communists are evil
Jews run the world
Southerners are backwards racist bigots
Palestinians are evil terrorists
on and on.

These stereotypes have no place in our modern society. I well never sit back and let ignorance have the floor unchallenged.

Fellowship

[chu_bakka]

I wanna know what "true progress" the south has made versus the rest of the country.

Some southerners talk about their pride as if there's some great achievement there...that their way of life is superior... but they just haven't let the rest of the country in on the secret.

Hey you like where you came from... that's great... but that doesn't make it better than anywhere else... other than to you.

[addabox]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
I think that there are cultural distinctions that can't be avoided.. paradoxii? paradoxes...

Many more blacks and whites live in proximity to each other and get along probably much better than anywhere else in the country in the south. But the KKK still has a following. And David Duke was really popular for a while, wasn't he?

I think a big difference is the bible belt... evangelicals and fundamentalism is much more pervasive there than in most other regions of the US... and for some... like me... I can't relate to that at all.

It's also really easy to pidgeon hole the south because of perception versus reality... but there is some truth to the perception... which makes it harder to ignore.

One of the things that my "northern" brethren never seem to "get" about the south is how flat out weird it can be. The assumption, fueled by years of "Deliverance" type imagery, is the cultural is largely made up of terrifyingly malevolent back-woods types, bone racist aristocrats ("pahdon me whilst ah whip mah slaves", and born again small town bigots always at the ready to burn something at the stake.

In fact, during my years in Alabama, I knew a great number of extremely eccentric types who couldn't have been pigeon-holed with a back-hoe.

And these odd-ducks, ne're-do-wells, half crazy river rats, and marginal drop outs were well integrated into their communities because they were "us". People would say things like "Hell, that ole Randy, he aint got the sense the Lord gave a pumkin, but he's OK. Man, he can eat though."

That is, for a people who know the rest of the country is suprised to learn they own shoes, closing ranks around a shared sense of history is inevitable.

The downside to closed communities is hostility to "outsiders". The upside is generosity to ones own.

[_ alliance _]

so disagreeing with the abundant displaying of the confederate flag makes me crying?? i should just accept this or run away, as should everyone else?!?!? fellows, that logic is why people view the south as being behind the rest of the country in many ways...

progress needs criticism, fellows. accept it, and stop whining.



let me say this again, since you're incescent whining has gotten in the way of anything else. NOT ALL TEXANS CARRY CONFEDERATE FLAGS. but i dont agree with the ones who do. why is this so difficult for you to accept? you're too dense...

[der Kopf]

originale d'al fellowshizzzle
All communists are evil

Not only are not all communists evil, they are all loved by me! (--> that's a joke again. I love only those that regularly wash themselves! --> see, another joke.)

But other than that, I was just pointing out that your hurt seems very pervasive in this thread: you react more to the fact that Texas is mentioned, than to the real matter at hand. Therefore I thought you might be taking it personal. I don't think you do Alliance justice though. He has not been broadswiping that much IMO, and where he did, it was, again IMO, in jest.

I wonder what the things were you didn't like in Paris...

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
I wanna know what "true progress" the south has made versus the rest of the country.

Some southerners talk about their pride as if there's some great achievement there...that their way of life is superior... but they just haven't let the rest of the country in on the secret.

Hey you like where you came from... that's great... but that doesn't make it better than anywhere else... other than to you.


exactly. most texans talk as if they're better than "yankees." if anyone's making generalizations, it's texans, although it does occur both ways often enough.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by chu_bakka
I wanna know what "true progress" the south has made versus the rest of the country.

Some southerners talk about their pride as if there's some great achievement there...that their way of life is superior... but they just haven't let the rest of the country in on the secret.

Hey you like where you came from... that's great... but that doesn't make it better than anywhere else... other than to you.

Not from me. I do not feel the US is any better than any other country. I do not feel Texas or the South is any better than any other country. Dove-tail with this my philosophy that generalizations are not productive in modern society. We are all people and any attempts to put some in a "box" as being less than that is in itself bigotry, ignorance, narrowmindedness, and hatred.

We are universally people.

Period.

Fellowship

[Powerdoc]

There is plenty of things i don't like in Paris.

One of the most terrible is the circulation : it's terrible
The other is the metro : i can't stand it, althought it's the most practical thing to travel here.


Visiting Paris is fun, but living in Paris, especially when you have a family sucks.

PS : just write this, because i don't want to give the opportunity of someone else to rant about my countrie :p

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Not only are not all communists evil, they are all loved by me! (--> that's a joke again. I love only those that regularly wash themselves! --> see, another joke.)

But other than that, I was just pointing out that your hurt seems very pervasive in this thread: you react more to the fact that Texas is mentioned, than to the real matter at hand. Therefore I thought you might be taking it personal. I don't think you do Alliance justice though. He has not been broadswiping that much IMO, and where he did, it was, again IMO, in jest.

I wonder what the things were you didn't like in Paris...


thank you der Kopf. fellows doesnt accept any criticism of texas, even though in this thread i am not criticising texas in particular, but am criticizing something that occurs in texas, as well as other places. i use texas as an example because it is where i happen to be right now. if i were somewhere else, then i'm sure i'd find something else to criticize--open criticism is one of my weaknesss. i dont accept racism in any form or fassion and i am very open about it. i see the rebel flag as being one form of racism, so i share that concern with others. if that's so bad, then stop reading what i have to say...

[addabox]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Not only are not all communists evil, they are all loved by me! (--> that's a joke again. I love only those that regularly wash themselves! --> see, another joke.)

But other than that, I was just pointing out that your hurt seems very pervasive in this thread: you react more to the fact that Texas is mentioned, than to the real matter at hand. Therefore I thought you might be taking it personal. I don't think you do Alliance justice though. He has not been broadswiping that much IMO, and where he did, it was, again IMO, in jest.

I wonder what the things were you didn't like in Paris...

You're forgetting that southerners are routinely depicted as racist boobs.

It's all well and good to tell people not to take things personally when you haven't been the target of stereotyping.

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by addabox
You're forgetting that southerners are routinely depicted as racist boobs.

I like boobs! I LOVE them. Mmmm. Good firm boobs! :)

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Not only are not all communists evil, they are all loved by me! (--> that's a joke again. I love only those that regularly wash themselves! --> see, another joke.)

But other than that, I was just pointing out that your hurt seems very pervasive in this thread: you react more to the fact that Texas is mentioned, than to the real matter at hand. Therefore I thought you might be taking it personal. I don't think you do Alliance justice though. He has not been broadswiping that much IMO, and where he did, it was, again IMO, in jest.

I wonder what the things were you didn't like in Paris...

If you ever follow posts or threads of _Alliance_ you will find his contempt for truck driving people. If you carefully read his opening post of this thread you will see _Alliance_ hold a very high level of contempt for Texas. I am from Texas and I drive a truck and I am saying to _Alliance_ that his high horse (if you don't drive a Honda) high horse attitude is very dark and ugly.

The whole world does not have to fit what _Alliance_ thinks it should be like.

_Alliance_ can say all he wants about Texas. I just want it to be clear that it says more about him than about Texas.

As for what I did not like about Paris I will not post that here out of respect. I have no reason to gripe about things I do not like. I will say that the things I did like about Paris out-weigh the things I did not like as is the case here in Texas.

People need a balanced view of things based on a large sense of truth not just some picture they want to paint out of a bigoted sense of self-superiority.

Fellowship

[addabox]

Originally posted by der Kopf
I like boobs! I LOVE them. Mmmm. Good firm boobs! :)

Yikes. Good thing I didn't say "southerners are rountinely viewed as dick-heads".

[DanMacMan]

Though there are those who are still racist bigots among us who wave the stars and bars for that purpose, I believe that states who wish to keep the confederate flag a part of their own state flag want it there for heritage and not for hate. It is a part of their culture, who they were and who they are. I see and understand both sides of the argument, I just feel that the federal government (including judges) does not have the right to tell an individual state what they can and can't have on a flag.

[chu_bakka]

The longest I've lived in any one place is where I am now... NYC. So It's really hard for me to have any sort of regional bias.

I do love NYC. Works for me.

But my mom is from Missouri, my dad from Illinois. I've lived in germany, virginia, texas, massachusetts and NH. Went to college in Connecticut.

And now I'm sort of a new yorker. which is better than being from new jersey. hehe. I kid.

I'm a liberal because my parents were wise enough to raise me that way. bless their hearts. It has NOTHING to do with where I was raised. I think being an Air Force brat was good for me.

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
If you ever follow posts or threads of _Alliance_ you will find his contempt for truck driving people. If you carefully read his opening post of this thread you will see _Alliance_ hold a very high level of contempt for Texas. I am from Texas and I drive a truck and I am saying to _Alliance_ that his high horse (if you don't drive a Honda) high horse attitude is very dark and ugly.

The whole world does not have to fit what _Alliance_ thinks it should be like.

_Alliance_ can say all he wants about Texas. I just want it to be clear that it says more about him than about Texas.

As for what I did not like about Paris I will not post that here out of respect. I have no reason to gripe about things I do not like. I will say that the things I did like about Paris out-weigh the things I did not like as is the case here in Texas.

People need a balanced view of things based on a large sense of truth not just some picture they want to paint out of a bigoted sense of self-superiority.

Fellowship



boohoo. go start a thread about your contempt for me. leave your bulls**t out of this one. it doesnt fit with the topic. thanks.

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by DanMacMan
Though there are those who are still racist bigots among us who wave the stars and bars for that purpose, I believe that states who wish to keep the confederate flag a part of their own state flag want it there for heritage and not for hate. It is a part of their culture, who they were and who they are. I see and understand both sides of the argument, I just feel that the federal government (including judges) does not have the right to tell an individual state what they can and can't have on a flag.


this is a seperate issue. having the confederate flag as a state flag is different than waving the flag on your window or pickup. but yes, the government really can't have an influence in this issue.

[addabox]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
boohoo. go start a thread about your contempt for me. leave your bulls**t out of this one. it doesnt fit with the topic. thanks.

(sigh) I'd imagine I'm more alligned politically with you, Alliance, than Fellows (although Fellows is a constant source of suprise), but now I'm gonna have to stand shoulder to shoulder with my southern friend.

Your casual denigration of a people and culture you clearly know little about is just plain ignorant bigotry. Sorry. Texas is one crazy-ass place, and if you think the confederate flag displaying there can be safely dispensed with by calling it "racist" you're plain and simple mistaken.

BTW, how the hell do you expect someone to react when you speak ill of their home and their people?

[chu_bakka]

The federal government has never tried to ban the rebel flag... or get the southern states that use it to stop. Neither have federal judges. They can't. Those are state choices.

The movements have come from within those states to change their flags or to stop flying the stars and bars over their statehouses.

If you want to end the perception to "outsiders" that alot of southerners are racist. You stop using the symbol. If you want to keep a nostalgic, prideful and somewhat closeminded attitude... you don't.

You also have to remember that the Civil Right movement is only 40-50 years old... and perceptions of the south still remain because of that too.

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
If you ever follow posts or threads of _Alliance_ you will find his contempt for truck driving people.

Well. I don't normally come to AppleOutsider too much, so I must've missed that. Also, he clearly states:

and every day i have to walk past rooms and pickups with their displayed flags of hate...

that's the only reference to trucks, and more specifically trucks with confederate flags on them. No harm in that, IMO.

If you carefully read his opening post of this thread you will see _Alliance_ hold a very high level of contempt for Texas.

I swear, Fellowship, that you read more into it than there is. Alliance is really only talking about his disgust for the confederate flag. How it is so closely linked to the badness in the history of the South (which, by the way, is tantamount to saying that there is goodness in that history too). You should reread it too. You are, IMO, overreacting, and that's not at all necessary.

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by addabox
(sigh) I'd imagine I'm more alligned politically with you, Alliance, than Fellows (although Fellows is a constant source of suprise), but now I'm gonna have to stand shoulder to shoulder with my southern friend.

Your casual denigration of a people and culture you clearly know little about is just plain ignorant bigotry. Sorry. Texas is one crazy-ass place, and if you think the confederate flag displaying there can be safely dispensed with by calling it "racist" you're plain and simple mistaken.

BTW, how the hell do you expect someone to react when you speak ill of their home and their people?


haha, fellows just doesnt like me cause i said that there were too many trucks in texas--he hasnt been able to let anything go since then. and i dont really care. but to hold that against everything i say has gotten quite annoying. i know quite a lot about this "people and culture" having lived here for over 11 years, but I am just now starting to voice my opinion on my observations. you can disagree with me all you want. that's fine. however, i'm tired of hearing fellows' constant moaning about how i need to leave texas cause i dont like it here. frankly, i would, but i have to go to professional school here for 4 more years. there are parts of the state that i dont mind, but there are still problems that need addressing. you cant improve something by ignoring it. however, most people who i've talked to prefer to ignore things because "that's the way it's always been." is this how a state turns to progress?? accepting the status quo?

this past wednesday, the Young Conservatives of Texas (or somethin like that) held a bakesale on campus to protest the hiring of a diversity council to icrease minorities enrolled. is this a good thing...?

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
however, i'm tired of hearing fellows' constant moaning about how i need to leave texas cause i dont like it here.

Well, Fellowship, you did indeed say that, and let me tell you: that's not very christian of you, is it? I think it is good that people voice their likes and dislikes, it's probably the most important factor in helping a society evolve (provided the debate takes place in a moderate and accomodating way).

Think about all the bad situations of the past. If everybody who disagreed had just upped and walked away instead of trying to change things for the better, what would the world be like today?

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
haha, fellows just doesnt like me cause i said that there were too many trucks in texas--he hasnt been able to let anything go since then. and i dont really care. but to hold that against everything i say has gotten quite annoying. i know quite a lot about this "people and culture" having lived here for over 11 years, but I am just now starting to voice my opinion on my observations. you can disagree with me all you want. that's fine. however, i'm tired of hearing fellows' constant moaning about how i need to leave texas cause i dont like it here. frankly, i would, but i have to go to professional school here for 4 more years. there are parts of the state that i dont mind, but there are still problems that need addressing. you cant improve something by ignoring it. however, most people who i've talked to prefer to ignore things because "that's the way it's always been." is this how a state turns to progress?? accepting the status quo?



_Alliance_ I like you just fine ;) I just thought your opening post was a bit emotional and a little loose on level-headedness. No fear I have done the same thing. The most recent was the 30 HRS in the Senate thread I had. I opened that thread very much like you opened this thread. I am not winking at the ignorance in texas I am only saying not all people in texas are this way. We have to be careful how we frame people, places, and things. Sure we don't (HAVE) to be careful to but if we are don't people will contest some statements we make.

I am speaking to myself here too. We all have outbursts of generalizing and we are all a bit over the top at times.

I have nothing against you at all _Alliance_

:) Fellows

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by der Kopf


Think about all the bad situations of the past. If everybody who disagreed had just upped and walked away instead of trying to change things for the better, what would the world be like today?


ironically enough, isn't that how the confederacy was formed? ;)

[applenut]

Originally posted by der Kopf
I like boobs! I LOVE them. Mmmm. Good firm boobs! :)

what are you 12?

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
ironically enough, isn't that how the confederacy was formed? ;)

Well: the confederates liked the way things were. They pretty muched turned one of these fancy "if you don't like it, get out" on the north by segregating themselves. At least, that's one way of looking at it.

[Aquafire]

.... ALL OF A SUDDEN DR FREUD BECAME AWARE OF THE DEEP PSYCHOLOGICAL CONNECTIONS THAT BUBBLED TO THE SURFACE IN THOSE DISCUSSIONS..

" BREASTS + TRUCKS + RACISM + FLAGS "

CAN DEVELOP INTO A STRANGE CONDITION CALLED APPLE~OUTSIDER..

:)

[addabox]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
this past wednesday, the Young Conservatives of Texas (or somethin like that) held a bakesale on campus to protest the hiring of a diversity council to icrease minorities enrolled. is this a good thing...?

Not in my book. On the other hand, here in California Ward Connerly, a member of the University of California board of regents, sponsered a successful change to UC enrollment policy to forbid race as a factor in admissions.

So go figure.

[chu_bakka]

On a lighter note... and completely off topic...

http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/1121flasher.html

GOP attorney suspected as Ônaked photographerÕ

By Laura A. Bischoff

COLUMBUS | A staff attorney for the Ohio House Republican Caucus was arrested late Wednesday and police suspect he is the flasher known around Columbus as the "naked photographer."

Columbus police arrested Steve Linnen in an alley behind a supermarket near where a woman reported being approached by a naked man who snapped her photo and then ran away. It was the 39th incident in which a naked man has ambushed a woman and photographed her shocked expression. Twenty-eight of them have happened in Columbus.

Linnen, 33, is paid $42,349 a year as deputy legal counsel for the House Republican Caucus. As such, he is on the staff of House Speaker Larry Householder, R-Glenford. Linnen has worked for the House Republicans since Dec. 28, 2000. He has been placed on paid leave pending the outcome of the Franklin County prosecutor's criminal investigation.

Columbus police charged Linnen with public indecency and assault. After he posted bond Thursday morning, Linnen was chased by television reporters outside the jail, police spokeswoman Sherry Mercurio said. Columbus police then re-arrested Linnen because Gahanna police had just issued an arrest warrant, she said.

Linnen is scheduled to be arraigned today on one count of gross sexual imposition and one count of kidnapping in connection with a May 2002 incident in Gahanna.


This report contains information from The Associated Press.

[_ alliance _]

Originally posted by addabox
Not in my book. On the other hand, here in California Ward Connerly, a member of the University of California board of regents, sponsered a successful change to UC enrollment policy to forbid race as a factor in admissions.

So go figure.


exactly! here in texas public universities, race is a huge factor. normally, the top 10% of students in high schools get automatic acceptance. but now they're planning (if they havent already, i dont know) on making it so that students of underpriviledged schools (fancy way of saying high levels of minorities) have the 20% rule--top 20% get in. this is pathetic. i dont know...i think that minorities need to make up a bigger chunk of the state schools, but they're going about it all wrong.
and private schools arent immune to the issue--i was recruited to go to rice purely on my being hispanic. many hispanic girls in my high school got in to rice who, while smart, werent rice-material. it's like reverse discrimination.
ok, now i dont even know what we were talking about. took a tangent...

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by applenut
what are you 12?

Did you know that for each member of AppleInsider, vBB holds some spicey database entries, which can be summoned by clicking Profile, a bit left of center right on top of a post of that very user. I'll tell you even more: those beautiful Profile pages hold, among many other interesting and overly relevant facts about your friends and foes, both the birthday and age of each user.

Behold!

:wow:

My profile, to add to this altogether surprising yet thoroughly joyous news, can be visited by clicking this link (that means these, yes, THESE, letters). (http://forums.appleinsider.com/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=6016). You see the beauty of technology? Infinite lossless reproduction of information, and the paths thereto. I just saved you some mouse-mileage.

In any case: don't worry applenut. There'll come a time when you will no longer find girls icky. This is a joyous time. A difficult time too. You will be faced with many strange feelings. You will be unfriendly, downright rude to your father and mother. You will want to dress funny and do stupid things to your hair. But you'll grow out of it. Indeed. You will reach the other side a different human being. The true synthesis of the two distinct ages of your life. I'm here if you have any questions.

:)

[Aquafire]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Did you know that for each member of AppleInsider, vBB holds some spicey database entries, which can be summoned by clicking Profile, a bit left of center right on top of a post of that very user.
It's taken you this long to work that out ?;) :)

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by Aquafire
It's taken you this long to work that out ?;) :)

Look who's talking... mr. Aquafire, welcoming a member (PBG3) who's been registered since November 17, 2001. About as close to the birth of post-blackout AppleInsider as you can get. Guess you didn't know much about profiles yesterday, did you?

:no:


( ;) )

[hmurchison]

Has anyone ever seen a non-white flying the confederate flag?

[Outsider]

Originally posted by hmurchison
Has anyone ever seen a non-white flying the confederate flag? Was boss hog white?

[chu_bakka]

Yes. So were bo, luke, daisy and pa.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by hmurchison
Has anyone ever seen a non-white flying the confederate flag?


Anyone ever seen a non-white family star in a television series that wasn't a comedy?

Cheers
Scott

[rok]

okay, b4 this thread goes completely off the tracks, let's just get it out in the open; there are assholes EVERYwhere. north, south... doesn't matter. closed minds and all. different issues, and different ways of handling it.

personally, if i can be stereotypical for a minute, i prefer the northern way of asshol-ization. they wear it on their sleeve. they might not like you, but they'll tell you why... to your face.

in the south, you can meet a lovely little old lady sweet as pie, and not know that she is horrified that she had a black kid talk to her at the store, or that there may be homer-sexuals living RIGHT NEXT DOOR, etc., etc. or maybe they're not. you never know. or that they worry if a jewish community starts growing in the area... or mexican... or black...

the devil you know, versus the devil you don't, i guess...

[job]

Isn't flying the Confederate flag, or any flag for that matter, a right granted by the First Amendment, i.e. freedom of expression and speech?

Hell, I've seen Neo-Nazi rallies where they have the swastika all over the place. Although we may not agree (obviously) with their motives and ideals, we nevertheless accept their right to express them.

Do we restrict individual liberties in an attempt to be politically correct and inoffensive?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by job
Do we restrict individual liberties in an attempt to be politically correct and inoffensive?

If by "we" you mean individuals/groups of individuals, then the answer is of course "yes."

If by "we" you mean state and federal governments, then the answer is of course "yes," although not officially.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by rok

in the south, you can meet a lovely little old lady sweet as pie, and not know that she is horrified that she had a black kid talk to her at the store, or that there may be homer-sexuals living RIGHT NEXT DOOR, etc., etc. or maybe they're not. you never know. or that they worry if a jewish community starts growing in the area... or mexican... or black...

the devil you know, versus the devil you don't, i guess...

Don't forget the ever-present "No, I'm not selling my house because I don't like it that a black family moved in down the road; I'm selling my house because when a black family moves in it lowers the property value."

That one's my favorite.

[job]

Originally posted by midwinter
If by "we" you mean individuals/groups of individuals, then the answer is of course "yes."

How can individuals/groups restrict the civil liberties of others? Obviously physical violence/intimidation may prevent individuals from excersizing those rights, but they remain their protected rights nonetheless.

If by "we" you mean state and federal governments, then the answer is of course "yes," although not officially.

Which begs the question...if the government and citizens of the United States are willing, according to your post, to restrict expression of self in order to remain inoffensive and politically correct, then how can we justify burning the American flag? Doesn't that offend some people just as much as flying the Confederate flag for others? So if the government is willing to restrict expression of self, again according to you, in an attempt to be politically correct, then why haven't we banned the buring of the American flag?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by job
How can individuals/groups restrict the civil liberties of others? Obviously physical violence/intimidation may prevent individuals from excersizing those rights, but they remain their protected rights nonetheless.

Protected rights don't mean much if no one cares to protect them all that much. If this were not the case, the ACLU wouldn't have much business.

Which begs the question...if the government and citizens of the United States are willing, according to your post, to restrict expression of self in order to remain inoffensive and politically correct, then how can we justify burning the American flag? Doesn't that offend some people just as much as flying the Confederate flag for others? So if the government is willing to restrict expression of self, again according to you, in an attempt to be politically correct, then why haven't we banned the buring of the American flag? [/B]

Simple: some speech is more protected than other speech.

I don't mean to be pithy or flippant here. It just seems that simple to me. And I'm not talking about something as silly as flag-burning; I'm talking about the absence of any widespread use of unabashedly racist rhetoric in public discourse among elected officials. I'm talking about the ability to be fired from a job because you use such language.

Don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm in favor of this or anything. I'm not. At all. I just think it's worth pointing out that were it not for the influence of those derided as PC fascists, we're still be referring to black people as something decidedly less PC on a day-to-day basis.

Cheers
Scott

[groverat]

I took a shit earlier. It's a part of my history.

I choose not to make a flag out of it, because it's feces.

Likewise, I would like to see the rebel battle flag removed from vehicles. Not by government force, of course, but I would like to see them relegated to history books and museums.

By the way, this is the flag of the Confederacy:
http://www.confederate.org/graphics/hallnew/flag.jpg

I think the rebel battle flag is pretty damned cool-looking from a purely aesthetic standpoint, I also think the same of the swastika (admit it, the swastika is pretty damned bad-ass looking).
However, I know they carry meaning because I'm a human being who chooses to use his brain so I reject them.

If you fly a rebel battle flag out of Southern pride you are an idiot. Without deviation, you are a blight on my beloved region of my beloved United States.

[Aquafire]

Very impressive flag you got there.
I assume it's an original ?

From what I understand, that flag design was carried into battle but caused so much confusion amidst the smoke of cannon and gun fire, that it had to be changed.

The later battle flag of diagonal stripes was based on the flag of St Andrew of Scotland the confederate soldiers took an emmediate shine to it... reverentially naming it the " Stars & Bars "

Ps i know that its off topic, but now I've got a hankering to redesign the Oz flag..Anyone know of nice easy piece of Mac software to design flags with ? Would prefer it it were classic ( 0S-9 ) or even 68K will do...cheers

[_ alliance _]

apologies for bringing this back, but i saw an interesting thing 2 days ago. on my drive from college station to houston three days ago, i stopped in navasota for gas and noticed an interesting moment. an old white woman was going into the station wearing a confederacy-designed cap on her head, and a big black guy was holding the door open for her. i wonder what she was thinking...
wish i got a pic of that moment. seems like a texas classic in the making.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by _ alliance _
apologies for bringing this back, but i saw an interesting thing 2 days ago. on my drive from college station to houston three days ago, i stopped in navasota for gas and noticed an interesting moment. an old white woman was going into the station wearing a confederacy-designed cap on her head, and a big black guy was holding the door open for her. i wonder what she was thinking...
wish i got a pic of that moment. seems like a texas classic in the making.

She probably didn't think anything about it. In my experience (and I'm from the actual South, not the faux South of Texas), most of the folks who wear confederate flag looking hats don't think anything about it other than it's a hat and they like it.

In the meantime: The case of Emmitt Till has been reopened (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/10/civil.rights.killing.ap/). I suggest that while you're on your break you watch Mississippi Burning (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095647/), Ghosts of Mississippi (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116410/) and 4 Little Girls (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118540/). Maybe, over summer break, you can take a Civil Rights tour (http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/civilrights/)?

Cheers
Scott

[billybobsky]

My view of this isssue is that most people in the south look at the flag as a heritage issue (again, this perception stems from 22 years living there -- 18 really, but in college i still technically lived there)... On the other hand, flags outside of the south represent the ideology of white supremacy...

[Kirkland]

Originally posted by groverat
[B]I took a shit earlier. It's a part of my history.

I choose not to make a flag out of it, because it's feces.

Likewise, I would like to see the rebel battle flag removed from vehicles. Not by government force, of course, but I would like to see them relegated to history books and museums.

By the way, this is the flag of the Confederacy:
http://www.confederate.org/graphics/hallnew/flag.jpg

Actaully, no. That was the FIRST flag of the Confederacy, but was quickly taken out of usage because it looked too much like the evil American flag that those brave idiotic redneck slave holders were rebelling (or failing to rebel, as it turned out) against.

http://homepage.mac.com/fireball1244/conf.gif
This is the final flag of the Confederacy.

[kneelbeforezod]

Originally posted by groverat
I took a shit earlier. It's a part of my history.

I choose not to make a flag out of it, because it's feces.Reminds me of the Mr Show episode where the founding fathers are discussing making the US flag out of feces...

"Who would shit on a flag made out of shit? It would be an empty gesture."

[Aquatic]

http://www.crwflags.com/art/mil/misc/fld-1187.jpg = http://www.heretical.com/miscella/swastika.gif

Sherman is my hero. :)

Hard to feel sorry for the devil. How many states in Germany have Swastikas in their flags? Duuuh. It's pretty simple. It's just as bad as the swastika and there are no two ways about it.

[hmurchison]

apologies for bringing this back, but i saw an interesting thing 2 days ago. on my drive from college station to houston three days ago, i stopped in navasota for gas and noticed an interesting moment. an old white woman was going into the station wearing a confederacy-designed cap on her head, and a big black guy was holding the door open for her. i wonder what she was thinking...
wish i got a pic of that moment. seems like a texas classic in the making.


I don't know. I don't normally assume that all people wearing the Rebel Flag are racist. If it truly means pride in Southern Heritage then I see no reason why Southern blacks don't proudly wear the flag. In fact I propose that they do just that. In fact if I was in the south right now I'd be telling folks to wear the flag as much as possible. If it truly stands for Southern Heritage and the Rebel Spirit then it's open for everyone.

This would destory the flags ability to be used as a hateful symbol. I would initially contract a minority to print up the Confederate Shirts. That way I could woo more blacks to my support cause because they would not be making a supremacist rich. Then we would slowly but surely appropriate the flag. Putting stickers on our cars....patches on our bags etc etc etc. We would in essence consume the flag and eat any harmful potential it may harbor.

The reason why this would work say versus wearing a Klan outfit is that proponents of the Confed Flag say it's not about race superiority but rather heritage and spirit. There is your glaring loophole. Whoop whooop!

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Aquatic
How many states in Germany have Swastikas in their flags? Duuuh. It's pretty simple. It's just as bad as the swastika and there are no two ways about it.

Isn't it illegal to be a Nazi in Germany? That analogy doesn't work; and not for just that reason.

[hardhead]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. The KKK borrowed the hood/ensemble from Christian, or more precisely, past Catholic ritual. At some point one of the Pope's said, "Get rid of this attire. It reminds us of the Inquisition." The church now openly admits to this shameful period in history. So the get-up is now only worn on religious holidays in a few areas of Spain. Possibly even fewer parts of Portugal, Italy and France.

The point being, the church officially dumpped these historical artifacts.

I'm very proud of my Norwegian, German, Irish heritage. I'm a proud white man. I am also an angry white man. Angry at the myopia TOO many of my white brothers and sisters suffer from. I lived a total of 15 years in the south (east Texas to Florida). Most white people that I met (with some exceptions...) in all that time, that displayed the conferderate flag as a symbol of "pride", in one form or another, I considered to be IGNORANT. Now, they could be decent, hard working and devout folks. They could just be a**holes. If you display that flag and feel that it's your right as a proud Southerner you are being ignorant. So much oppression was carried out in the name of that flag, that it's about time for it to be relegated to the historical archives.

I know there are many Southerners like Groverat that take delight in the knowledge of history. That's a beautiful thing and not the same as displaying the Stars and Bars for pride.

I agree that political correctness gets carried out to rediculous extremes in our American society. However, there is a time and place for it. Now is the time to turn that flag over to the historians.

Just my .02c

[Kickaha]

Originally posted by hardhead
So much oppression was carried out in the name of that flag, that it's about time for it to be relegated to the historical archives.

Actually, as a Northerner (okay, Northwesterner) who thought that the Confederate flag was exactly that, but has since moved to the South...

As I was told it, the current flag flown as the Confederate flag was actually a battle flag designed to honor the soldiers... *WITHOUT* having the overt political overtones of the flag of the CSA... which it wasn't. (See, to my eyes, before I came down here, I thought it *was* the CSA flag. Twasn't.) (Interesting 'last CSA flag' earlier, just saw it. Hmm.)

As someone who feels that most footsoldiers are pawns anyway, no matter who is behind them, and that anyone who dies feeling that they're doing right by their homeland *regardless of the idiocy of their political leaders* should be given a nod, I no longer have a lot of problems with the flag as originally intended.

The fact that it was then co-opted by a bunch of ignorant rednecked sonsabitches is a sad footnote.

However...

I carry a Visa card that has an American flag splattered on it. My old one had become unreadable about Nov 2001, and post-9/11, everything *had* to have a flag on it, so of course the new default had the stars and stripes. (Or, "Supporting the war with every swipe!" as my wife put it.) I very nearly sent it back and requested one without it... but reconsidered. Why the hell should I let go of a symbol that actually *does* have meaning for me, just because some idiots I disagree with have decided to slap it on their SUVs willynilly and more or less abuse it more than anyone burning it could?

If anything, I'm more upset by the commercial use of it than the fact that it's the American flag.

Gawdammit, it's my flag too, and it'll stand for what *I* want it to stand for, in my own mind.

Which, to bring this back on topic, is precisely what I think should happen with the Confederate flag. hmurchison is right. Take back the f*cker.

[Fellowship]

The problem as I see it is simply "Pride"

People get this stupid sense that they and their symbols represent that which is "the best" or certainly "better" than every other option.

This is such childish and immature behavior.

We are all people. Not Americans, not Iraqis, not French.

People that argue at Nascar races over Ford Vs/ Chevrolet that is what ignorance and pride reduces us to.

Who is better, who is better, who is right, who is wr