PowerBook 12" crippled compared to 15"

[Algol]

My friend recently bought a 12" PowerBook, and I have to say that is is a awesome looking computer. I thought about getting one but apple has crippled it compared to the other models. A computer that ends up costing almost 2000 dollars should have a 64MB graphics card and it should not have the ram limitation. Having 256MB build in creates a very expensive process of upgrading the ram. Especially when apple charges you 270 education for a 512MB stick. Creating a Powerbook 12" with a decent amount of ram and a airport card ends up costing almost 2000 education. This is way to high considering that you are only really getting a slightly upgraded iBook. The only difference between the 12" PowerBook and the iBook is basically bluetooth built in and a cooler body style. I heard the graphics cards were about equal. The 12" PowerBook should be the same as the 15" just a little slower in Mhz, hard drive, and etc but not in built in functions like GPU. Obviously, apple does this to create a bigger market for their higher margin computers. You think in the next revision apple will make the 12" more equal to the other PowerBook models?

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Why on earth would you want the Powerbook 12" instead of the iBook, when you are a student? :err:

[SonOfSylvanus]

Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch
Why on earth would you want the Powerbook 12" instead of the iBook, when you are a student? :err:


PeLEASE! Are you serious?

[Cubit]

I love the iBook 12 for size and flexibility. Mine is an old 500 Japanese model that came with a itsybitsy harddrive, but a Combo that runs my Japanese DVDs video out when I need them and I can carry all over. The PB I use is th new 15" Al with which I run everything when away from my desktop Cube. It is now pushing the Cube aside when I really want to fly and I use my 22" Cinema display with it when I want to settle in for a bit. I am thinking about getting it is very own Cinema display!

OK, SO WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH THE THREAD? you may ask. :grumble:

Let me say that if portability and use, kind of rough (as one could use the original iBook or the Pismo G3 PB-- which had incredible flexibility with its bays --MINE IS STILL ALIVE!) definitely go with the 12" PB, the bargain of the century for WP use and knock about. If you are thinking of the Al series, I would recommend the 15", or use the one and save up for the second one day.;)

[PB]

Originally posted by Algol
You think in the next revision apple will make the 12" more equal to the other PowerBook models?

I doubt, really. It is quite possible that the gap will get even bigger by the introduction of the G5 Powerbook, in the case where the new chip cannot go directly into the 12" Powerbook.

Even if the next revision is a G4, the big Powerbooks are going to get a 128 MB graphics chip (hopefully, ATI Radeon Mobility 9700). By that time, the 12" Powerbook will have probably a 64 MB GPU, if that is not an issue with the available space in the aluminum enclosure.

[trebuchet]

Why buy Apple ram at all... ever?!? I just purchased a gig of ram for my Powerbook ( 2 x 512 ) for $86 per stick.

[Algol]

People seem to be a little slow today and most are missing my point!!! ;)
The problem is that apple crippled the PowerBook 12" for no reason other than to jack up their prices of the 15". The 12" has the PowerBook title it should not have iBook Limitations. It should have all the features the bigger models do. Yes, even the light up keyboard. If apple feels that a 12" PowerBook will interfere with the sales of 15" PowerBooks if they have same specs then apple should not have called it a PowerBook. The 12" is an amazing computer in terms of size and style, but it is more an iBook than a PowerBook. This seems to be sound logic. Also most people who buy a 12" PowerBook are students who want more power for Games, thus apple should but the best card in it they can get. If the PowerBook cost a 200 more but had same GPU and RAM and light up keyboard as 15" I am sure more people would buy it. Taking the RAM cripple off would cost very little and adding 32MB more VRAM would also be cheap as shit. The lightup keyboard is what 80 dollars. Apple could add these features or at least make them optional for less than 200. The only difference between the 12" and 15" should be the screen size, HD size, PCI slot, and perhaps speed cause the smaller case has less room to cool off. The G4 is all ready an old chip that often struggles to keep up with Intel laptop chips. Apple has the upper hand in style and size but they should not cripple machines to sell other ones. They have done this for ever and the 12" PowerBook is there only example left besides the iBooks having 256k L2 cache. I am hoping the next upgrade apple creates a real PowerBook out of the 12". Now, I think it's okay the give the 17" a few more features than the 15" because it has more space for them and it is extremely expensive. Although, we all know that steve is just making up for something.

[farve]

I benchmarked my powerbook 12 against the 12 ibook. It was 25% faster on pretty much everything. But yeah I would agree that it should have a bit more of the features that are included in the 15 powerbook, like two ram slots and 64 Mb vram. The 12 powerbook is too expensive (50% over the ibook) but it does beat the ibook with a comfoortable margine. Lucky me who managed hustle and get my 12 really cheap...If I wouldn't have gotten that deal I would have bought the ibook.

[Algol]

Lets center this around the future of the 12" powerbook cause it is in future hardware. Originally I was trying to figure out if you guys thought the next PowerBook 12" would be un-crippled.

[Amorph]

I suppose the easiest way to determine this would be to look at the motherboards side by side and figure out if there's a way to cram the guts of a 15" PowerBook into a 12".

You have to accept some tradeoffs in exchange for both miniaturization and a lower price. Most computer makers charge a premium for the really compact models.

Not to mention that I think Apple's settled on a really good way to keep the iBook's costs down, by having the 12" PowerBook pay for the engineering costs in advance. :devil:

[EDS66]

My only gripe with the 12-inch PowerBook is its screen quality. The colors are not as bright and vivid as they could be; the contrast is rather bad, and calibration only gets it marginally better. Other than the screen, the machine is close to perfect in every way. And it runs much cooler than its revision A predecessor

[SonOfSylvanus]

Originally posted by trebuchet
Why buy Apple ram at all... ever?!? I just purchased a gig of ram for my Powerbook ( 2 x 512 ) for $86 per stick.

Sorry, off Topic but SHIT! I just looked at Apple's prices for RAM: £220 ($415)
for 512MB and £549 ($1,037.71) for 1GB! OMFG!! You could buy [insert "whole computer", "AV system", "car", "Carribean holiday" here according to preference] for that. I've just bought TWO 512MB sticks from Crucial (ie not the cheapest) and they came to a total of £130. That's like 40% cheaper than ONE 512MB stick from Apple UK.

Moral: Don't buy RAM from Apple!

Sorry, yeah, I'm off topic

[PB]

Originally posted by SonOfSylvanus

Moral: Don't buy RAM from Apple!

Sorry, yeah, I'm off topic

But you are right.

[concentricity]

how is this future hardware?

amorph, please...

[Algol]

It was supposed to be a discussion of the future of the 12" PowerBook. Whether it was possible or if apple would make it equal to the 15" with the next revision.

[kroehl]

Originally posted by Algol
It was supposed to be a discussion of the future of the 12" PowerBook. Whether it was possible or if apple would make it equal to the 15" with the next revision.

Yabbut this is AI - thread-drift is whatsitsallabout. :)

Anyhoo. I don't believe that the 12" will ever be equal to the 15" (or the 17 for that matter). Apple has placed the 12" as an entry-level PowerBook but it's not only that. The rest is a question of packaging. I'm sure that Apple has done a great job cramming everything into the VERY small shell of the 12" but expecting light-up keyboards in there is asking a bit much I think.

The result is that the specs on the iBook 12" and the PB 12" are so close that the 30% price difference isn't really warranted. In that light the iBook is the better choice right now and represents incredible value for Apple-dollars. Only when Cupertino manages to shoe-horn the 97x in there without sending people to hospital after the 30 second, sparkling explosion of burning and molten aluminium upon hitting the power-on button, will that change.

[New]

Originally posted by EDS66
My only gripe with the 12-inch PowerBook is its screen quality. The colors are not as bright and vivid as they could be; the contrast is rather bad, and calibration only gets it marginally better. Other than the screen, the machine is close to perfect in every way. And it runs much cooler than its revision A predecessor

True indeed. The 12" screen is actually quite a lot darker than an ibook i compared it to yesterday.

That made me slightly pissed off... actually...

[beamso]

I'm of the opinion that Apple deliberately cripple the 12" PowerBook against the 15" models for differentiation reasons. If I could have bought a 12" PowerBook with the same memory speed, video card and RAM expandability as the 15" model, I would have (I bought a 1GHz 15" Aluminium PowerBook).

I doubt that the 12" model will ever match the lower specced 15" model on performance.

[Matsu]

The Rev A came pretty close (867 vs 867Ti)

It's built for portability first, it's cheaper too, what do you expect?

It's missing a PC-Card (useful) and the illuminated keyboard (cool).

It will get the illuminated keyboard on the next rev, it may never get a PC Card slot (pity).

Edit:

iBooks are going to be really nice once we see a G5 Powerbook.

With a clear distinction between G5 Powerbooks and G4 iBooks, Apple can freely include ALL of the following.

DVD-Superdrives
DVI-out SPANNING SUPPORT
1.2-1.5Ghz G4's.

At current iBook prices, it'll be nice.

Furthermore, at the prices Apple is now charging, it's time to include airport for "free" in all but the iBook 12"

[PB]

Originally posted by Matsu

It will get the illuminated keyboard on the next rev, it may never get a PC Card slot (pity).


I remember an Apple representative who said in an interview, just days after the introduction of 12" and 17" Powerbooks last year, that Apple deliberately did not include the illuminated keyboard in the 12" model just to make the 17" more attractive (sorry, no link right now, but at the time there was a furious discussion over at MacNN on the subject). He admitted furthermore, that there are no technical issues to include it even in the 12" form factor. So, I presume you are right on that one, but I can't say if it will be the next update or not.

For the PC card slot though, they have perhaps not enough room to include it in the 12" model.

[k squared]

And that Apple representative might have no idea what he's talking about. The sensors for the lighted keyboard are under the speaker grills of the 15 and 17 inch PBs and the 12 incher lacks a ready placement for them. So I'm not so sure it's as easy as it seems. Of course, I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but that's just a quick visual reference.

[Escher]

Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch
Why on earth would you want the Powerbook 12" instead of the iBook, when you are a student?

I currently own an aging iBook/500. I will choose a 12-inch PowerBook over an iBook as my next laptop because I have a nice 17" LCD sitting on my desktop at home. Sure, you can run the spanning hack on an iBook, but I want to close my 'Book and use only the external LCD. Even with hack, the iBook can't do that. (If it did, I would already have bought a new one.)

Back on the topic of a future (Rev.C) 12-inch PowerBook, I agree that the low quality of the LCD is a weak point. IMO, Apple could also easily add a second RAM slot. I couldn't care less about the video card. IMO, Apple would easily be able to add the lighted keyboard on the Rev.C 12-inch, and it definitely should.

Bottom line: two RAM slots and lighted keyboard in the Rev.C 12-inch PowerBook would mean more to me than a faster clock processor (unless it brings improved power management).

Escher

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by trebuchet
Why buy Apple ram at all... ever?!? I just purchased a gig of ram for my Powerbook ( 2 x 512 ) for $86 per stick.

from where?!

[Algol]

I have nothing against the next PowerBook 12" having slower clock speeds than the bigger ones; however the primary powerbook features should exist on all powerbook models. The next 12" should have the lighted keyboard, the 2GB RAM limit, Firewire 800, 167mhz bus, and same graphics card. The difference between the models should be: HD size and speed, clock speed, screen size, PC card slot, and faster memory. If nothing else apple should give you the some of the absent features as choices on their custom configuration page.

[Gustav]

Originally posted by Algol
I have nothing against the next PowerBook 12" having slower clock speeds than the bigger ones; however the primary powerbook features should exist on all powerbook models. The next 12" should have the lighted keyboard, the 2GB RAM limit, Firewire 800, 167mhz bus, and same graphics card. The difference between the models should be: HD size and speed, clock speed, screen size, PC card slot, and faster memory. If nothing else apple should give you the some of the absent features as choices on their custom configuration page.

If they did all that, it would cost more. Sure you think it should include all that, but at what price? Apple needs to decide what they can include, and what is a good price for a 12" PowerBook. There's a trade-off between price and features. Apple's margin on the 12" isn't huge.

It sounds like you disagree with it being called a PowerBook more than what it is or what features it has. If they called it a "midBook" would you still think it is crippled?

[Stratosfear]

Why Apple thinks, that smaller is worse? Some people just need smaller laptop, because they travel a lot etc... PB 12" should contain same features than 15" model.

[Algol]

I don't think it would cost much for apple to add these features to the powerbook. Fixing the RAM hack wouldn't cost anything. The light up Keyboard could be an option just like on the 15". So this wouldn't add any thing to the cost. Adding 32MB more VRAM wouldn't cost much. Firewire 800 I don't know, but the point is that these features are not expensive they are just not things you can upgrade yourself. Apple just took these features out in order to make people pay more for the 15". They did not take them out to save money or because of the small size. Perhaps it would cost apple another 100 at the most. They could leave the combo 12" the way it is now and the superdrive one could cost 100 more and include these features. Basically make the SuperDrive 12" a smaller 15" and thats all. No other features taken away besides the screen size. I think apple should do this. I mean I can't see any reason why the next rev should not see these changes.

[Gon]

Originally posted by Matsu
iBooks are going to be really nice once we see a G5 Powerbook.

With a clear distinction between G5 Powerbooks and G4 iBooks, Apple can freely include ALL of the following.

DVD-Superdrives
DVI-out SPANNING SUPPORT
1.2-1.5Ghz G4's.

At current iBook prices, it'll be nice.

Furthermore, at the prices Apple is now charging, it's time to include airport for "free" in all but the iBook 12" I'm drooling at the thought. But somehow I think there will still be no screen spanning. They should have put it in years ago, since it costs nothing at all. But they haven't - so why would they do it now?

I suppose they will want to sell external displays to iBook owners, so I expect DVI.

If the iBook gets 1GHz and the same cache as current PB's, that is plenty power IMHO. I'd rather see they concentrate on saving battery than add 0.2GHz.. oh and they should pop in a Radeon 9600 when it's possible pricewise :-)