Microsoft in trouble [Archive]

03-16-2004, 04:49 AM

Now, Microsoft seems to have some real trouble. Antitrust ruling could mean $3bn fine for Microsoft (http://business.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=303222004).

Made in European Union :D .

Final decision is expected next week.

Merovingian

03-16-2004, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by PB
Now, Microsoft seems to have some real trouble. Antitrust ruling could mean $3bn fine for Microsoft (http://business.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=303222004).

Made in European Union :D .

Final decision is expected next week.

What gets me is that Apple could also be sued for bundling Safari and QuickTime, or even iTunes and the Music Store, with Mac OS X, in the nae of antitrust...

Hang on, Apple isn't a monopolist, so this doesn't apply to them...

(Makes one wonder). m.

torifile

03-16-2004, 06:53 AM

alcimedes

03-16-2004, 08:23 AM

our state trial started today. not that i think it will do anything, but who knows.

Amorph

03-16-2004, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Merovingian
What gets me is that Apple could also be sued for bundling Safari and QuickTime, or even iTunes and the Music Store, with Mac OS X, in the nae of antitrust...

Hang on, Apple isn't a monopolist, so this doesn't apply to them...

Antitrust law is not about breaking monopolies. There's nothing wrong with monopolies per se as far as (U.S.) law is concered. They just have to continue acting as if they were still selling into a market. The law steps in when a company with a monopoly starts abusing its control of a market.

The tech press doesn't talk about it much (for fear of pissing off MS, which ironically strengthens my point) but Microsoft has had a chilling effect on the industry. During the dot-com bubble, VCs wouldn't fund projects that looked too good, because they were afraid that MS would gut the company of its talent and then destroy it. They have a long history of doing that. Maybe, if it weren't for MS casting its long shadow over the industry, the dot-com thing could have been something other than a bubble...

cowerd

03-16-2004, 10:04 AM

Maybe, if it weren't for MS casting its long shadow over the industry, the dot-com thing could have been something other than a bubble...Well that, and not giving so much money to startups whose only business plan was to buy more aeron chairs.

pscates

03-16-2004, 11:12 AM

:lol: So true...

thegelding

03-16-2004, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Merovingian
What gets me is that Apple could also be sued for bundling Safari and QuickTime, or even iTunes and the Music Store, with Mac OS X, in the nae of antitrust...

Hang on, Apple isn't a monopolist, so this doesn't apply to them...

(Makes one wonder). m.

i run os X...i can throw away safari, i can throw away quicktime, i can throw away iTunes and never use the music store...there are aps to use with X...microsoft made IE part of windows so it can't be thrown out

g

Chris Cuilla

03-16-2004, 01:15 PM

Amorph is exactly correct. Having a monopoly is not illegal, but abuse of that monopoly power IS. Which seems reasonable. This also counters the argument by many (mis-guided) individuals that the monopoly laws punish success. Incorrect. The anti-trust laws are design to punish BEHAVIOR...in particular abuse of power.

Has MS abused its power? It appears quite clear that it has.

Some of the typical means that a monopolist will use include "dumping" and "tying".

Dumping is selling a product below what it costs to make in order to drive competition out of business. Tying is making the sale of one (monopoly) product contingent upon another (that the monopolist wishes to dominates ITS new market).

MS is probably guilty of both of these with IE.

Exclusion is something else a monopoly can do...denying someone the right to sell a competing product. This is almost the reverse of "tying". Tying says "if you want to buy Windows, you must also buy IE." Exclusion says, "you cannot buy windows if you buy Netscape Naviagtor."

Now...take this to media players...office suites...database applications...etc.

cybermonkey

03-16-2004, 01:37 PM

Imagine if in the future the next version of DVD's are all based on windows media format, then try playing them on a computer not running windows.

Microsoft should really take a leaf out of apple's books, If MS made software that was compatible with other OSes, then the user would simply be able to choose what platform, OS thay want to use and they wouldnt be in the situation thay are in now. if you buy a car, you know you can stop at any petrol station for fuel, they all have a steering wheel and you can drive them all on any road, computers shoudn't be any different.

Krassy

03-16-2004, 02:32 PM

Krassy

03-16-2004, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Merovingian
What gets me is that Apple could also be sued for bundling Safari and QuickTime, or even iTunes and the Music Store, with Mac OS X, in the nae of antitrust...

Hang on, Apple isn't a monopolist, so this doesn't apply to them...

(Makes one wonder). m.

isn't this because of the way how the media player is integrated into the operating system - in a way that other competitors can't integrate their own player-software because of missing documentation or even worse a technique that doesn't allow this?

cybermonkey

03-16-2004, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Krassy
isn't this because of the way how the media player is integrated into the operating system - in a way that other competitors can't integrate their own player-software because of missing documentation or even worse a technique that doesn't allow this?

that's the spark of it, if MS wasn't in the running for the next format of DVD's this probably wouldnt of arisen

Aquatic

03-16-2004, 04:51 PM

i run os X...i can throw away safari, i can throw away quicktime, i can throw away iTunes and never use the music store...there are aps to use with X...microsoft made IE part of windows so it can't be thrown out

Exactly. Go ahead and try to to not have IE...Yeah. Great part about that is: it's blatantly illegal. Has been since Windows 98 when a judge ordered MS to cut IE out of Windows. Look at how our democracy worked. I wonder what Russia is doing with this issue. Putin to Microsoft Russia: Throw them in the gulag!!!

Merovingian

03-16-2004, 09:27 PM

My previous post got quite a few good replies, which I was aiming for. I was glad to read your takes on the subject, giving me a better understanding.

As for my take...

The EU should really make an example of Microsoft, and hopefully set a standard that makes other manufacturers of software, (or indeed anything), should adhere to. The industry would be better off.

I like the "tying" and "dumping" explanation. It explains the situation quite well. Also, the differentiation to what MS and Apple do with their own software bundling was stated, which has opened my eyes a bit. Apple do indeed support Open Source, with many of their projects, and also support standards, (like web standards in Safari).

Also, it is true that I can delete Safari, iLife, or QuickTime, without (much) problem, while Windows users cannot rid themselves of the IE plague on their systems. For this alone, I hope MS gets a kick in the arse. m. :)

Krassy

03-17-2004, 10:44 AM

update: steve ballmer and monti (EU) are in negotiations to find an alternative ending to the story - lame!

source (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticke r%2Fmeldung%2F45632&lp=de_en&tt=url)

Republic

03-18-2004, 09:05 PM

According to CBS Marketwatch at 7:30 PM EST on the 18th, "Mario Monti, Europe's chief antitrust regulator, said Thursday that settlement talks with Microsoft have failed, paving the way for the Europe Commission to fine the software giant for market abuses."

Edited to remove broken link. Check CBS Marketwatch's website for story tonight. cbs.marketwatch.com

Crusader

03-18-2004, 09:39 PM

Make M$ pay!!!

03-24-2004, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Crusader
Make M$ pay!!!

Here we go! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3563697.stm)

cybermonkey

03-24-2004, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by PB
Here we go! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3563697.stm)

Lets hope that by the time MS has done with its appeal the Euro will be worth double of what it is today:lol:

AirSluf

03-24-2004, 08:00 PM

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

talksense101

03-25-2004, 09:48 AM

It looks like M$ lobbyists in Congress are painting the picture that M$ is a victim of US and Europe trade-wars. They want the president to intervene in the matter. Talk about twisting the truth... :no:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/25/1079939782633.html

dfiler

03-25-2004, 03:03 PM

Unfortunately, Microsoft has been able to wriggle its way out of supposedly loosing verdicts.

For example, when they lost a simliar case in the US, they were allowed to give schools used hardware and free software as a form of 'punishment'.

In actuallity, this was a HUGE tax write-off for MS and probably didn't negatively impact their bottom line by one penny. It may have even been benneficial, locking schools into using MS software. When those computers and software grow stale, guess what schools most likely buy as a replacement... the newest versions of those MS products that they were given.

the cool gut

03-25-2004, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Merovingian
What gets me is that Apple could also be sued for bundling Safari and QuickTime, or even iTunes and the Music Store, with Mac OS X, in the nae of antitrust...

It's not bundling thats the problem. You can EASILY delete iTunes and Quicktime from your applications folder ... and Apple isn't trying to prevent other companies from developing competing software for the platform. big difference.

SwitchingSoon

03-25-2004, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by PB
Now, Microsoft seems to have some real trouble. Antitrust ruling could mean $3bn fine for Microsoft (http://business.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=303222004).

Made in European Union :D .

Final decision is expected next week.

Yaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

less of a monopoly
yayyyyy