Super-efficient electric motor

[Outsider]

I was reading Slashdot and found this interesting article.

From the people who brought you A.W.E.S.O.M. O....

http://www.japan.com/technology/index.php

Inventions like this can pave the road to a solution to our impending energy crisis that we will face in the US (and the world) in the next few decades. I can picture vehicles being powered by motors like these with much smaller power supplies and fuel. I'm not talking about running a Volvo on a couple of D size batteries, but a modest fuel cell, or rechargable battery or even solar panel assisted can comfortably power a family sized vehicle and even aircraft. Do you think this will change anything?

[Wrong Robot]

Very neat.

[\/\/ickes]

Crazy Japanese fools! They will rune the American Oil industry! The same industry that we fought so hard to save! Do they have any idea how much they just might help the environment! Oh. My. God.

[billybobsky]

it is nothing new... most of the claims seem to be invalid anyway...

[Kickaha]

How so?

[billybobsky]

the power output cannot be more than the power imput, the calculation is simply wrong.

or, alternatively, the system is loosing its magnetization.... which will have more issues later...

as far as the rest, this type of propulsion is not new... most high efficiency electric motors don't drive continuously...

[Scott]

The claims do seem a little off.

[Splinemodel]

A good polyphase AC motor will do better than 90% efficiency. While I'm not in a position to confirm or deny the claims made by this Japanese guy, the ~200% power gain on his motor is extremely odd, and I don't believe that the magnetics alone can do this. We'll see what becomes of it.

If it gets beyond "japan.com," maybe then it's a big deal. Big deals have a way of verifying themselves over a course of media attention.

[Kickaha]

Originally posted by billybobsky
the power output cannot be more than the power imput, the calculation is simply wrong.

Bzzt.

or, alternatively, the system is loosing its magnetization.... which will have more issues later...

There ya go. Energy is energy - the fact that it's using magnetism as essentially 'fuel' is the interesting bit.

It's kind of like the Segway... the gyroscopes allow it to use the potential energy of falling on your face to move forward.

Heck, I can show you how to get unlimited free energy with some water and a 17km sealed tower... uses gravity. :D

as far as the rest, this type of propulsion is not new... most high efficiency electric motors don't drive continuously...

True, but they rely on the coasting of the high-efficiency bearings, this relies on the additional propulsion of the opposing permanent magnets.

[faust9]

Also, it looks like an AC motor in that they are producing a rotating field that the rotor chases. It appears they are switching current on and off through the stator to produce rotation. They used DC power calculations for an AC motor which doesn't account for both real and imaginary load. Also, The type of meter used could account for the apparent discrepency. Did they measure the motor power between the battery and control circuitry or between the control circuitry and the motor. If the latter is the case then they are not measuring P-P power input but RMS which is .707 of P-P voltage. Another thing to consider is if this is an AC motor then it will be about 6 to 7 times more efficient than a comparable DC motor (DC motors are less efficient but produce much more torque).

High efficiency motors have been around for a while. Outrunner DC motors (these are really a type of AC motor) are very efficient and used as wheels in those solar powered race cars.

[faust9]

Damn! y'all are faster at typing than I am.

P.S. You'd think a motor like this would interest the auto industry but I've not seen a SAE paper yet (SAE papers are usually fairly timely in this regard).

[faust9]

Originally posted by faust9
Damn! y'all are faster at typing than I am.

P.S. You'd think a motor like this would interest the auto industry but I've not seen a SAE paper yet (SAE papers are usually fairly timely in this regard).

Lastly, if the thing is making more power than it is using then they could attach the output to the input and not bother with the battery. Give it a quick spin by hand and viola! The MG would supply itself with enough power to spare...

Too bad its a hoax though.

[shetline]

Originally posted by Kickaha
Energy is energy - the fact that it's using magnetism as essentially 'fuel' is the interesting bit.
There isn't that much energy stored in a "permanent" magnet. If extracting energy from the magnets is essential to the motor's operation, the magnets will quickly be depleted and will have to be replaced or re-magnetized.

There'd be no help here in reducing fossil fuel consumption unless you happen to have a big stockpile of very strong magnets sitting around waiting to become your next non-renewable energy source.

[Kickaha]

Originally posted by shetline
There isn't that much energy stored in a "permanent" magnet. If extracting energy from the magnets is essential to the motor's operation, the magnets will quickly be depleted and will have to be replaced or re-magnetized.

There'd be no help here in reducing fossil fuel consumption unless you happen to have a big stockpile of very strong magnets sitting around waiting to become your next non-renewable energy source.

Yup. No argument there. Just pointing out the obvious that there *is* another energy source being utilized here beyond the electricity, before the 'you can't have a perpetual motion machine' babble starts.

[sammi jo]

There have been so many "over unity" devices claimed over the years, probably 99%+ of them being outright hoaxes or bad science.

But there are a few which look more promising:
http://website.lineone.net/~aarekhu/
This device..actually there are several on the premises...have been operating two decades or more and have been examined by a team of engineers, who said something to the effect of "yes it works according to the claim of the designer/s but it shouldn't (!)".

Inventor T. H. Moray of Salt Lake City back in the 1930s designed "over unity" device which was examined exhaustively and nobody could figure out where the excess power was coming from.

It has been suggested by some that these people have designed devices which tap into the "zero point energy" of the vacuum. This property has been successfully demonstrated experimentally (the "Casimir effect").

When Pons and Fleischmann announced "cold fusion" (what a misnomer!) in 1989 (albeit in a thoroughly inappropriate fashion, no peer review etc etc, very poor scientific method overall), in amongst the garbage there were some anomalous results which, although not repeated, have not been explained satisfactorily. Other "cold fusion" (!) reseachers have noted similar peculiarites. Maybe the energy excesses could also be attributed to "ZPE" as well?Just hazarding a guess here.

I am interested in the subject because of the inevitable environmental and energy crises we face. As Carl Sagan used to say "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". All these claims should be examined with the utmost rigor...but hopefully the scientific world is not going to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" in the mistaken notion that "we know all there is to know" about the subject.

[Scott]

Naw SJO that's bunk. It runs off of dark matter and magnetic monopoles.

[billybobsky]

for the low low cost of five dollars I will sell you my anti-mater generator...

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by billybobsky
for the low low cost of five dollars I will sell you my anti-mater generator...

deal...not that it matters or anything :rolleyes: :p

[faust9]

Originally posted by billybobsky
for the low low cost of five dollars I will sell you my anti-mater generator...

Antimatter is more real than these over unity machines though. Every particle has an antiparticle but these anti particles tend to combine with they opposite counterparts within moments of creation. Heck, every nuclear reactor is a little antimatter generator. http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/antimatter_sun_030929.html

[billybobsky]

antimatter-matter pairs form in high vacuum detectably....

sitting near a black hole we get into how hawking suggested a way for the universe to be composed mostly of matter...

the swiss evidently have a super secret way of generating/storing antimatter...

final thought on antimatter -- how did the anti-hydrogen experiments go?

[Scott]

I have several anit-magnetic monoples in my storage space.

[shetline]

Originally posted by billybobsky
the swiss evidently have a super secret way of generating/storing antimatter...
Ah hah! That's what the holes in the cheese are for. :D

[Splinemodel]

This thread is starting to sound like an item description in EV.

If you know, you know. Otherwise, don't worry about it. Anyway, EV rocks. Is moki still a member here?

[Stoo]

Is there anything putting energy into the magnets ? :\

[Scott]

Other magnets. In fact it's magnets all the way down!

[KANE]

Originally posted by Scott
Other magnets. In fact it's magnets all the way down!

Somebody's been reading 'A Brief History of Time' recently, it seems...

[Scott]

No? Just a well known story among physics types. If were talking about the same thing?

[KANE]

Originally posted by Scott
No? Just a well known story among physics types. If were talking about the same thing?

Yes we are. Stephen Hawking attributes that quote on turtles to an old lady attending a physics lecture by Bertrand Russell, in the very beginning of his bestseller 'A Brief History of Time' and that is where I thought that you had read it.

If I may ask Scott, what is your involvment with physics?

[shetline]

Originally posted by KANE
If I may ask Scott, what is your involvment with physics?
He's composed of octillions of subatomic particles.

[Scott]

Originally posted by KANE
Yes we are. Stephen Hawking attributes that quote on turtles to an old lady attending a physics lecture by Bertrand Russell, in the very beginning of his bestseller 'A Brief History of Time' and that is where I thought that you had read it.

If I may ask Scott, what is your involvment with physics?

That must be where I remember it from. My involvement in Physics? I am a medical physicist.

[drewprops]

Man: Doc, it hurts when my monophased amphiboles have self-consistent isomer shifts.

Doctor: Well don't move your arm like that!