Israeli army helicopter kills at least 20 protestors with missiles...

[New]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D190504/rafah_child190504_ap.jpg

10 are reported to be children. link (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/429428.html)

Time to stop this madness. This is Sharon trying to destabilize Gaza the most before withdrawing.

[pfflam]

I usually withold harsh judgement towards Israel because I think that they are fighting for their lives.

But lately they have been completely abusing any goodwill that I could possibly retain towards them.

This is outright murder. This is the kind of thing that should go down in history with a name, like the 'Vallintine's day Massacre" etc.

And these damn settlements!! They are filled with outrageous hateful racist Fundametntalists who think that Pallistinians are less than apes . . . I don't know how many interviews with settlers I have seen or read where they can not help themselves but to start ranting like extreme biggots.
These settlements, besides being illegal, immoral and thuggish, are not worth a single life lost in this 'Massacre'

Israel better start acting like a civilized country if it wants even half of the Palastinians to act civilized in return . . . . sure we all know that some of the PA just want them dead . . . . but most, I am quickly coming to believe, are reacting to this kind of brutality .

[segovius]

Bush refuses to condemn attack (http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/front/story/1381109p-8622076c.html)....

Imagine my shock :wow:

[Smircle]

Surely all AlQuaida terrorists, especially the children. Trying to destabilize Israel by demonstration, that's going to teach them a lesson in democracy.

[Powerdoc]

Well I don't know what to say, excepting that it must stop :(

[bunge]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
Well I don't know what to say, excepting that it must stop :(

I've heard that one before, but unfortunately it doesn't work.

Time for the U.N. to enforce the pre '64 boundries.

[Scott]

Originally posted by New
...
Time to stop this madness. This is Sharon trying to destabilize Gaza the most before withdrawing.


Why didn't you post when the Arabs bobmed the Jews and danced in the streets with a bag full of dismembered body parts? No "stop this madness" for that?

[ericg]

Originally posted by Scott
Why didn't you post when the Arabs bobmed the Jews and danced in the streets with a bag full of dismembered body parts? No "stop this madness" for that?

Maybe because those jews were IDF soldiers and not children

[Scott]

Originally posted by ericg
Maybe because those jews were IDF soldiers and not children

So then dancing with a bag full of their body parts is not madness that needs to stop?

[Smircle]

Originally posted by Scott
Why didn't you post when the Arabs bobmed the Jews and danced in the streets with a bag full of dismembered body parts? No "stop this madness" for that?

Since you seem to disagree with the call to stop this side of the madness, you believe that firing rockets to kill kids is OK if the right side does it?

[Scott]

Originally posted by Smircle
Since you seem to disagree with the call to stop this side of the madness, you believe that firing rockets to kill kids is OK if the right side does it?

No I think being one sided against Israel results in an anti-Semetic effect.


Edit to add:

In a sence the only side that needs to "stop" is the jews with in turn would lead to genocide.

[ericg]

Originally posted by Scott
So then dancing with a bag full of their body parts is not madness that needs to stop?

Ofcourse, I can see no good for that kind of behaviour.. I can understand it.. but it won't achieve anything other than disgust

[Smircle]

Originally posted by Scott
No I think being one sided against Israel results in an anti-Semetic effect.


Lemme see, what about being one-sided against the Palestinians? By basic logic this results in an anti-Palestine effect (to be precise anti-semitic, since all those guys down there are semites, but let's not be too picky).

Not even mentioning you attempt to derail this thread and sidetrack the issue - after all, it is not exactly anti-semitism that killed those kids, but tank and/or helicopter rounds.

[Scott]

Look at the part of the article that New chose not to quote


Military sources said that troops had spotted the approaching demonstrators, among them armed men

Why'd you leave that out New?

[BRussell]

Scott even the Israeli gov't has apologized for this. I'm not sure why you're defending it by pointing out the demonstrators had guns. According to this article (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/mideast/index.html):
Ra'anan Gissin, senior adviser to Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, urged people not to jump to conclusions about what had happened.

"I assure you one thing: there are no rules of engagement in the IDF or among security forces that allow firing direct or high-trajectory fire into a crowd. So if there was, it was against the rules or by mistake," Gissin told CNN.

He expressed "my deep regrets on behalf of the Israeli government" for the loss of innocent lives, "regardless of how they were killed."

It seems they might have been shooting missiles/tank shells at nearby abandoned buildings in order to scare the crowds. I'm sorry, but that's pretty stupid.

[Harald]

Originally posted by Scott
Look at the part of the article that New chose not to quoteWhy'd you leave that out New?

Oh my God, he's got a gun! Quick, fire the tank at all those people!

[New]

Originally posted by Scott
No I think being one sided against Israel results in an anti-Semetic effect.


Edit to add:

In a sence the only side that needs to "stop" is the jews with in turn would lead to genocide.

I've never been a supporter of banning anyone. I even thought mika deserved more leverage at times.

but right now Scott. I think your beyond comprehension. I have a jewish family. The Rabbi in my cousins Bar-Mitzvah later became Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs in Israel. People like you are more dangerous to jews and jewish culture than anything I could say.

If you continue to throw around the term "anti-Semitic" more now you really should be banned. Your attitude here is close to fundamentalistic. You bring nothing to the discussion.

Since this is my thread, I dare you to contribute a positive thought. What do you see as a possible positive development in the middle east?

And please, don't just disappear like you normally do...

[pfflam]

Originally posted by Scott
Why didn't you post when the Arabs bobmed the Jews and danced in the streets with a bag full of dismembered body parts? No "stop this madness" for that? Yeah . . .I'm all for stopping that madness too!!

[bunge]

Originally posted by New
And please, don't just disappear like you normally do...

I think you've wrong on this point.

[Scott]

Originally posted by New
....
And please, don't just disappear like you normally do...

Please? You can hardly get rid of me.


How 'bout it New? Why not thread when the arab muslims are dancing in the streets with a bag full of body parts from dead jews? Why do you wait until Israel does something then present a completely one sided thread?

[bunge]

Originally posted by Scott
How 'bout it New? Why not thread when the arab muslims are dancing in the streets with a bag full of body parts from dead jews? Why do you wait until Israel does something then present a completely one sided thread?

Do the Palestinians dance in the street with body parts of civilian Israelis? If not, then your lies are proven yet again to be worthless in yet another thread.

Thanks for playing!

[Scott]

Originally posted by bunge
Do the Palestinians dance in the street with body parts of civilian Israelis? If not, then your lies are proven yet again to be worthless in yet another thread.

Thanks for playing!

Yes they did. You didn't know?

[Moogs]

Scott's right. The bulldozing of dozens (maybe hundreds) of homes - a few of which might harbor terrorists - and the indiscriminant straffing of civilian areas with rockets, must be allowed to continue! Nothing the Israeli military does in the name of self-defense is wrong. Ever. GOT IT?

Israelis are always victims defending themselves, Palenstinians are always terrorists getting what they deserve. That's all there is to it. Just take it and shut up everyone; we have no right to criticize. We are hypocrits to not support everything the Israeli government does.

[Scott]

No. What I'm curious about, if New would come back to this thread but seems to have run off, is why he runs right to AO and post some thread about the last thing Israel has done while completely ignoring the horrible and barbaric actions from the arab muslims. Why is he so consistently one sided in his criticism.

Maybe it's that he has such low expectations from the muslims?

[tonton]

Originally posted by Scott
Why didn't you post when the Arabs bobmed the Jews and danced in the streets with a bag full of dismembered body parts? No "stop this madness" for that?

AGAIN with the "their bad is worse so our bad is not as bad".

Bad is bad.

[Scott]

Originally posted by tonton
AGAIN with the "their bad is worse so our bad is not as bad".

Bad is bad.

When did I say they were worse?

[tonton]

Originally posted by Scott
When did I say they were worse?
When you excused Israel by bringing up the off-topic, fallacious argument that New is one sided because he didn't condemn the atrocious acts of the Palestinians.

Why didn't you post when the Arabs bobmed the Jews and danced in the streets with a bag full of dismembered body parts? No "stop this madness" for that?

Be honest, Scott. You, together with Trumpt and SDW, as well as the childish NaplesX are by far the most one-sided, partisan posters on these boards. I have never once heard any of you complain that what Bush does is wrong or that what Israel does is wrong (without saying or implying "but" the terrorists or the Palestinians or the Muslims are worse).

[Gilsch]

Some in here should be made into a comic strip of some sort. :no:
Just some advice guys. If you're gonna use "big words" like SEMITIC, at least make an effort to LEARN how they're spelled first.
I would also recommend reading up on Israel . Not all Israelis are "the jews". A little over 20% of the Israeli population is not Jewish.

Back on topic. I for one, am getting tired of this conflict. And I've said that to my Israeli friends a few times. It's too bad we can't put the same amount of pressure on both sides to seriously sit down and negotiate (undoubtedly giving up something)for the benefit of both the Israeli and the Palestinian people.

[sammi jo]

War on terrorism? What a dumb, pathetic joke. How duplicitous and non-credible we are.

When terrorism and massacres are dealt out by the US, and our "friends and allies", such as the regimes of Saddam Hussein (1977-1990), Suharto of Indonesia, Sharon of Israel (and many numerous others since WW2), with our money, arms, and approval, it's deemed "legitimate". (?????????) Israel under Sharon is a rogue state, period, and Ariel Sharon is a rogue leader, period. Israel sponsors and partakes in terrorism, make no mistake. The $billions that Israel receives from the US taxpayer should be halted, as from now. Furthermore, Israel must abide by UN Resolution 242, just like the dozens of other UN resolutions it has roundly ignored and thumbed its nose at the international community with impunity, because it just happens to be the US's favorite, no matter how badly it behaves. In addition, UN weapons inspectors should perform thorough inspections of Israel's nuclear, biological and chemical weapons facilities, in order to purge the middle east of WMD.

Israel under Sharon and the US under Bush share the same status: states that sponsor, and harbor terrorists. This is the view of much of the world. And guess what, as if we didnt already know? The middle east is full of reactionary dipshits who demand revenge, extremist Muslim groups being the Arab cheerleaders for such. How many bin Laden copycats are we trying to create?

[Scott]

Wow such harsh words for the Jewish state SJO. What do you say about Arafat, Hamas, IJ and the rest. Nothing? Next time a bomb blows up a bus full of kids in Israel run straight here and post about how the arab terrorists need to stop the "cycle of violence" and how they're methods only creates a thousand more Sharons and that the "madness needs to end" and other useless slogans that are only trotted out for the Jewish state.

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by Scott
Wow such harsh words for the Jewish state SJO. What do you say about Arafat, Hamas, IJ and the rest. Nothing? Next time a bomb blows up a bus full of kids in Israel run straight here and post about how the arab terrorists need to stop the "cycle of violence" and how they're methods only creates a thousand more Sharons and that the "madness needs to end" and other useless slogans that are only trotted out for the Jewish state.
Scott, go look at the AO archives. If you won't I can. My commentary on the PLO and Hamas is equally, if not more harsh. And, just for your information, Hamas was created by the Israeli Govt. 2 decades ago as a counter to Arafat's PLO. I guess that makes Hamas more legit for you?

And Scott, judging from your reply, it sounds as if you approve of terrorism?

[Randycat99]

I'd say the Darwin criterias should be applicable here. If you happen to be in a large crowd marching angrily toward a group of tanks and helis, don't follow with the crowd! Take some cover, go home, just don't be part of the crowd. Evidently, this survival technique has evaded those protestors. They took the gamble that nothing bad would happen, and this is what you get. What did they accomplish in the end? Exactly.

[kneelbeforezod]

Edit: Counted to ten. Still angry at randycat's response, but going to try and avoid name calling.

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by Randycat99
I'd say the Darwin criterias should be applicable here. If you happen to be in a large crowd marching angrily toward a group of tanks and helis, don't follow with the crowd! Take some cover, go home, just don't be part of the crowd. Evidently, this survival technique has evaded those protestors. They took the gamble that nothing bad would happen, and this is what you get. What did they accomplish in the end? Exactly.

Randycat, they are probably in similar danger at home as in a crowd. The Israelis often shell, or fire missiles at Palestinian's homes, or bulldoze them. Hell.... they even do such things to American aid workers, with impunity. Perhaps those Palestinians were thinking safety in numbers i.e. the herd instinct, which is also Darwinian, if that's where you want to go.

[Scott]

Randycat99 you forgot "with armed gunman in an area known to be a supply line for terrorist.

Naw. It's just easier to click your brain off and blame the Jewish state are every turn.

[Randycat99]

Originally posted by sammi jo
Randycat, they are probably in similar danger at home as in a crowd. The Israelis often shell, or fire missiles at Palestinian's homes, or bulldoze them. Hell.... they even do such things to American aid workers, with impunity. Perhaps those Palestinians were thinking safety in numbers i.e. the herd instinct, which is also Darwinian, if that's where you want to go.

Ridiculous. If there is a bulldozer coming at your home, the Darwin criteria should tell you to get out. More importantly, don't stand in front of a bulldozer like a dumb rock. Barring that, they should have been quite safe at home.

If you are going to even bother with a "safety in numbers" defense, then you must concede that they knew they were walking into a dangerous situation (as opposed to taking cover, going home, or otherwise leaving the crowd), and were expecting casualties. So there you have it. This happened exactly the way it was supposed to. Most survived (for a needless demonstration) as per "safety in numbers", and an expected fraction of the group are carried out as casualties.

You shall then logically agree that no sympathy need be shed on this group of protestors, other than why couldn't they be smart enough to not "take on" a battalion of tanks and helicopters.

[faust9]

Originally posted by Randycat99
Ridiculous. If there is a bulldozer coming at your home, the Darwin criteria should tell you to get out. More importantly, don't stand in front of a bulldozer like a dumb rock. Barring that, they should have been quite safe at home.

If you are going to even bother with a "safety in numbers" defense, then you must concede that they knew they were walking into a dangerous situation (as opposed to taking cover, going home, or otherwise leaving the crowd), and were expecting casualties. So there you have it. This happened exactly the way it was supposed to. Most survived (for a needless demonstration) as per "safety in numbers", and an expected fraction of the group are carried out as casualties.

You shall then logically agree that no sympathy need be shed on this group of protestors, other than why couldn't they be smart enough to not "take on" a battalion of tanks and helicopters.

Rember this:

http://www.historywiz.com/images/china/tanks.gif

sometimes people put themselves in the way of harm in order to fight for what they believe in.

[Randycat99]

So you are implying that these protestors intended to put themselves in harms way? Then you very well cannot look down your nose at the Israeli forces.

So have either of these "causes" moved ahead after these particular events? I guess it gave the media something to do today, right? There's something to be said for giving your life up for something that will actually make a difference and just giving it up for nothing.

[faust9]

Originally posted by Randycat99
So you are implying that these protesters intended to put themselves in harms way? Then you very well cannot look down your nose at the Israeli forces.

So have either of these "causes" moved ahead after these particular events? I guess it gave the media something to do today, right? There's something to be said for giving your life up for something that will actually make a difference and just giving it up for nothing.

Man alive, some peoples kids!!!

I'm sure that little Chinese college student didn't "INTEND" on standing in front of a tank convoy risking life and limb when he woke up that morning. I'm sure that student "INTENDED" on protesting the inequities within China thus he, and a large group of others, gather to show their displeasure.

I know its hard for some to see the similarities between a student protest and a Palestinian protest. I know its difficult to understand that some people will risk their lives for a cause which "THEY", not you, believe in.

PS I'm not going to reply to you again. Your comments seem to make me ill and angry for some reason. I can tell from your post here and in other threads that you have no grasp of history and/or sociopolitical dynamics.

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by Randycat99
Ridiculous. If there is a bulldozer coming at your home, the Darwin criteria should tell you to get out. More importantly, don't stand in front of a bulldozer like a dumb rock. Barring that, they should have been quite safe at home.

Ridiculous? The IDF bulldozers often operate at night, while Palestinian homeowners are sleeping. And how are they safe at home against tank rounds, automatic weapons, and missiles launched from a distance?

If you are going to even bother with a "safety in numbers" defense, then you must concede that they knew they were walking into a dangerous situation (as opposed to taking cover, going home, or otherwise leaving the crowd), and were expecting casualties. So there you have it. This happened exactly the way it was supposed to. Most survived (for a needless demonstration) as per "safety in numbers", and an expected fraction of the group are carried out as casualties.

Why should it be so unsafe to take part in a protest in your home town? And why would people marching in the streets be the targets of bombs or missiles? For an answer, perhaps ask the relatives of the Israeli folk who have been blown up in restaurants and on buses. Same deal. Both sides use terrorist methods. One side happens to do it with a high tech military paid for by we the US taxpayer, and the other side with a bunch of desperate rag tags with nothing left to lose.

You shall then logically agree that no sympathy need be shed on this group of protestors, other than why couldn't they be smart enough to not "take on" a battalion of tanks and helicopters. [/B]

The protesters were just doing that, protesting. From what we know, they were not firing at the Israeli aircaft

[talksense101]

From the dictionary

Se·mit·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-mtk)
adj.

1. Of or relating to the Semites or their languages or cultures.
2. Of, relating to, or constituting a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic language group that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic.


n.

1. The Semitic languages.
2. Any one of the Semitic languages.

Sem·ite ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smt)
n.

1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
2. A Jew.
3. Bible. A descendant of Shem.



Can anti-semitic can also mean anti-arabic? or are Jews too important for the word to mean anything else? :\

[Randycat99]

Originally posted by sammi jo
Ridiculous? The IDF bulldozers often operate at night, while Palestinian homeowners are sleeping.

Yes, these would be those "stealth bulldozers". The ones that are impossible to hear in the middle of the night as they approach a particular "house" at a whopping 15 mph with giant floodlights a blazing to light the way. Those? Lemme guess, you also heard they drive these "silent bulldozers" with night goggles so they don't have to use the lights?

And how are they safe at home against tank rounds, automatic weapons, and missiles launched from a distance?

The Darwin criteria would suggest you don't house terrorists in your domicile, lest you risk getting caught in their crossfire. Oh, you say they are not allowed to leave? They are captives? I guess their "guests" have doomed them, no?

Why should it be so unsafe to take part in a protest in your home town?

Cuz it's the Middle East? I guess even 20/20 hindsight isn't enough to give these people a clue. It's also logically unsafe to bum-rush a tank batallion.

And why would people marching in the streets be the targets of bombs or missiles?

Exactly. There's more to this story. Unfortunately, some readers prefer to only gleen the details that support their agenda, instead of waiting for the complete report of the events to really find out what went down there.

For an answer, perhaps ask the relatives of the Israeli folk who have been blown up in restaurants and on buses. Same deal. Both sides use terrorist methods.

Let the record show that SJO honestly believes the Israeli military actively target civilians to which to expend their ammunition.

One side happens to do it with a high tech military paid for by we the US taxpayer, and the other side with a bunch of desperate rag tags with nothing left to lose.

Yes, must be that simple...

The protesters were just doing that, protesting. From what we know, they were not firing at the Israeli aircaft

It's questionable what we do know vs. what we are fed. Either side you choose to be on, there are sources of severe misinformation.

[segovius]

I have an orthodox ruling to clear up the confusion. According to Rabbi Dov Lior (http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=7626) it's ok to kill civilians (my bold):

Rabbi Dov Lior, chairman of the settler’s rabbinical council ruled that killing civilians during warfare is permitted if it will save lives.

The IDF are allowed to hurt so called innocent civilians during warfare, Chairman of the Yesha rabbinical council (Judea, Samaria and Gaza Strip), Rabbi Dov Lior, said in a Halachic (Jewish law) ruling made public Wednesday.

"The law of our Torah is to have mercy on our soldiers and to save them. This is the real moral behind Israel's Torah and we must not feel guilty due to foreign morals," Lior said.

The IDF is allowed to use all means at its disposal to defeat terrorism “even if it means ‘innocent’ people are killed”, the sources said.

The religious community did not publicly condemn Rabbi Lior’s ruling.


I think this applies when it's Israelis doing the killing though - it's obviously not ok for anyone else to kill civilians whether to save 'so-called innocent lives' or not.

And that's not racist. No, definitely not. Hope that clears up any misunderstandings - it's all ok. Move along - nothing to see.....

[bunge]

Originally posted by Randycat99
I'd say the Darwin criterias should be applicable here.

Why wouldn't you allow the Darwin criteria to apply for Israelis as well? Because you're a racist. Congratulations.

[New]

Originally posted by segovius
I have an orthodox ruling to clear up the confusion. According to Rabbi Dov Lior (http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=7626) it's ok to kill civilians (my bold):



I think this applies when it's Israelis doing the killing though - it's obviously not ok for anyone else to kill civilians whether to save 'so-called innocent lives' or not.

And that's not racist. No, definitely not. Hope that clears up any misunderstandings - it's all ok. Move along - nothing to see.....

ok, that's comforting. Listen everybody, the rabbi said it's ok.

In other news condi accidentally called bush her husband in an interview... how about that? anyone think there is someyhing going on?

[tonton]

Originally posted by Scott
Wow such harsh words for the Jewish state SJO. What do you say about Arafat, Hamas, IJ and the rest. Nothing? Next time a bomb blows up a bus full of kids in Israel run straight here and post about how the arab terrorists need to stop the "cycle of violence" and how they're methods only creates a thousand more Sharons and that the "madness needs to end" and other useless slogans that are only trotted out for the Jewish state.

Broken recor...

Broken recor...

Broken recor...

Broken recor...

Broken recor...

Dude, Scott, you're like living in an alternate universe where everyone is partisan except you.

In case you still don't get it, the difference is that although both Hamas and the current Jewish government are clearly terrorist organizations, the US is only giving money and weapons to one of them. The US is only supporting one of them. The US is only condemning one of them (and when I say US I mean every US administration, including Clinton). That's why we people feel the need to speak out when we see such injustice. Justice would be for ALL terrorists, Sharon and Arafat alike, to be treated equally.

The only explanation I can gather is that you do not see firing missiles at a crowd of mostly innocent people as a terrorist act IF those people happen to be Muslim. It does appear that in your mind, "Middle Eastern Muslim" = "terrorist" and all such are guilty until proven innocent, with death as their rightful punishment. You, sir, appear to be far more bigoted than any here whom you've so repeatedly been calling anti-semitic.

[Smircle]

Originally posted by Randycat99
I'd say the Darwin criterias should be applicable here.

I can see this makes for a great argument in the decision of past and future disputes.
Taking a bus in Israel and being blown sky-high by some Palestinian madman wearing a belt of explosives? Your fault. The darwinian instinct could have told you not to...

Does anyone here work in a skyscraper in the US, per chance? What about 9/11 firefighters? Heros or fools? Thanks to Randycat we now know the answer. Pass the message to their widows, will you?

Always blame the victim, this way you can avoid ever criticizing "your" side. Go with the team! Don't ever hesitate!

[Smircle]

Well, the UN security council just condemned the massacre (the US abstained, but did not veto).

So, Scot and Randycat, is the security council now officially anti-semitic? They clearly did send a one-sided message here - focused on a single incident. No lame excuses based on some darwinian hogwash either, as far as I can tell.

Israel, with a sense of humor, killed five more palestinians in response - just to give the UN the stink finger, I presume.

[talksense101]

Didn't want to get into yet-another bashing contest, but this article from Yahoo (Associated Press) pushed me into it. Here are some quotes from

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040520/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716




...

Nabil Abu Rdeneh, a senior aide to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (news - web sites), welcomed the U.S. abstention and called on the U.S. government to "force Israel to accept international forces here to protect the Palestinian people."

Israel appeared unconcerned about the U.S. vote. Raanan Gissin, an aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites), attributed the abstention to the "delicate situation in which the United States finds itself today."

European leaders sharply criticized Israel but the United States stopped short of condemning the attack.

"I continue to urge restraint," President Bush (news - web sites) told reporters in Washington. "It is essential that people respect innocent life in order for us to achieve peace."

...

The fighting has revived debate inside Israel on its continued presence in Gaza. Sharon has proposed withdrawing from the volatile area, but his Likud Party rejected the proposal earlier this month. Sharon has pledged to push forward with his plan.

In a statement Wednesday, the White House statement said Wednesday's deaths "serve as a grim reminder of the wisdom" of Israel pulling out of Gaza.


Can Israel please share some of the crack it is supplying to the junkies in the white house? It seems to working wonders.

[Scott]

New! You didn't answer my question. Why no thread when the arab muslims are parading around with a bag full of body parts of the Jews they have killed. Where's you condemnation then?

[New]

Originally posted by Scott
New! You didn't answer my question. Why no thread when the arab muslims are parading around with a bag full of body parts of the Jews they have killed. Where's you condemnation then?

I don't equate killing soldiers in an armed conflict with firing tank and helicopter shells at civilian demonstrators.

But for you especially: Parading bodyparts is against international law. killing armed soldiers isn't. The guilty persons should be punished accordingly. In a court. probably with a fine or prison.

BTW, how do you know that all of those soldiers were jews? There are other ethnic groups in the IDF too. You do know that?

[Scott]

Maybe? How 'bout the next time a bomb goes off in the Jewish state you run straight to your computer and post a thread bemoaning the endless cycle of violence that the arab muslims are instigating and wax on about how Arafat and IJ and Hamas and most other arab countries are trying to destabilize the region and what a horrible violation of international law it is and how the UN needs to pass a resolution against it and on and on.

[New]

Originally posted by Scott
Maybe? How 'bout the next time a bomb goes off in the Jewish state you run straight to your computer and post a thread bemoaning the endless cycle of violence that the arab muslims are instigating and wax on about how Arafat and IJ and Hamas and most other arab countries are trying to destabilize the region and what a horrible violation of international law it is and how the UN needs to pass a resolution against it and on and on.

so the next time a bomb goes of in israel, it's the fault of every Arab (as loong as he is a muslim)?

[kneelbeforezod]

Originally posted by Scott
Why no thread when the arab muslims are parading around with a bag full of body parts of the Jews they have killed.So start one already. If you see an injustice going on that others here might not be aware of, feel free to bring it to our attention.

The thing is, I guarantee that you won't find a single person on these boards trying to defend a Palestinian terrorist who has just murdered a group of innocent civilians.

[bunge]

Originally posted by New
BTW, how do you know that all of those soldiers were jews? There are other ethnic groups in the IDF too. You do know that?

He's too blindly racist to acknowledge that fact.

[sammi jo]

The worst about this latest atrocity is that the Israeli military deliberately mowed down kids. According to the Daily Telegraph, one of the UK's most conservative national dailies, this was a children's march, godammit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$TTP5WWJFKPQ0RQFIQMGSFF4AVCBQ WIV0?xml=/news/2004/05/20/wmid20.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/20/ixnewstop.html
Does it surprise me that the psychopathic Bush administration tacitly supports this kind of state run terrorism and murder by Israel (in contrast to the universal global condemnation) by abstaining in the UN security councils resolution? Not one bit. Anything the Israelis do is OK with them. If Sharon nuked Damascus or Teheran on a whim, Bush and company would probably be OK with that also.

The Rapture? Bring it on .

[Artman @_@]

Originally posted by sammi jo
The worst about this latest atrocity is that the Israeli military deliberately mowed down kids. According to the Daily Telegraph, one of the UK's most conservative national dailies, this was a children's march, godammit.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7447/peace-lovingpalestinianprotestor.jpg

Children's march with big brothers with guns.

Don't want to rock the boat sammi jo but we aren't there and the stories coming to us are varied...this is a typical sick cycle of events...over and over and over...they can all go to their religious forms of "paradise" as far as I'm concerned. I'm going to find a job, get back to living and they can all go fuck themselves.

:smokey:

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by sammi jo
The worst about this latest atrocity is that the Israeli military deliberately mowed down kids. According to the Daily Telegraph, one of the UK's most conservative national dailies, this was a children's march, godammit.

Sammi....so upset at childrens deaths...never upset when they are jewish children though..you know, the ones always on the buses that explode?

Yes, this is a pretty horrible incident. Too bad people on this thread only feel it is horrible enough to discuss when it is Arab who have died. Yes, I know, all violence is the ME is bad, yet you all seem to only get riled up about it when it is acts of violence from the jewish state. I can't remember ever seeing SJo post link after repetitive link regarding the evils and corruption of the PA. I haven't seen NEW start a thread about the loss of Jewish women and childen, having their throats cut in their homes. Bunge has yet to get into a heated arguement decrying the busloads of jews killed every year. Sure, these people may throw in the occasional "boy, that was awful" or "well, the wasn't nice" but it's always with conditions. "well, that was awful that a busload of jews got blown up again...damn Sharon..He is to blame"


Scott has said as much, but of course you all just dismiss it as extremist rantings. Easy to brush it off a rationalise your onesided views. But, perhaps scott is right. perhaps for some, but not all, you views are based on a hatred of jews, perhaps not even a hatred you acknoledge to yourself. It wasn't too long ago I remember reading about another incident where every one jumping up and down about an act involving Irsael. At the time I think it was said that it was due to "typical jewish arrogance". Realistically, that statement could be assigned to many of you and you wouldn't flinch.

[Artman @_@]

Originally posted by talksense101
Didn't want to get into yet-another bashing contest, but this article from Yahoo (Associated Press) pushed me into it. Here are some quotes from

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040520/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716
Can Israel please share some of the crack it is supplying to the junkies in the white house? It seems to working wonders.

"Israel apologized for the deaths, saying its troops did not deliberately fire on marchers. A preliminary army investigation concluded that a warning shot fired by a tank flew through a building and hit the crowd, security sources said on condition of anonymity."

Ah...they are learning from us...if all else fails use the "Magic Bullet Theory".

/thanksarlenspecter...

:smokey:

[Artman @_@]

" Israel also blamed the Palestinians, saying gunmen infiltrated the crowd of about 3,000 people protesting the incursion into the Rafah refugee camp. Witnesses denied militants were among the marchers, and Palestinian leaders denounced the incident as a massacre."

Ooop. My bad. They're both asshats...

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7447/peace-lovingpalestinianprotestor.jpg

:rolleyes: :smokey:

[bunge]

Some people posting in this thread refuse to recognize that it is never legal to fire tank rounds into a crowd of people, even if they have guns.

[Artman @_@]

Originally posted by bunge
Some people posting in this thread refuse to recognize that it is never legal to fire tank rounds into a crowd of people, even if they have guns.

Don't put me in that group. Or I'll get my tank after you.

/allthisisgoingnowhereagain

:smokey:

[Randycat99]

Poor examples.

Originally posted by Smircle
I can see this makes for a great argument in the decision of past and future disputes.
Taking a bus in Israel and being blown sky-high by some Palestinian madman wearing a belt of explosives? Your fault. The darwinian instinct could have told you not to...

Does the bomber step on the bus with the "Palestinian madman" outfit with belt explosives fully exposed? I'm pretty sure they don't, and if they did, they'd be pretty stupid to follow him into the same bus just to get to their destination. So yes, there is an applicable Darwin element there. The reality, however, is that the bombers don't announce their intentions beforehand. There is no "context" to respond to. The other bus passengers are not in a protest nor are they deliberately approaching an armed battalion with harmful intent. They are simply riding in a freakin' bus.

Does anyone here work in a skyscraper in the US, per chance? What about 9/11 firefighters? Heros or fools? Thanks to Randycat we now know the answer. Pass the message to their widows, will you?

It was their duty to save people. They know well beforehand that their lives will be at risk while doing what they do. They also don't bring along "children" in their squad while performing their duties. They also don't rush into a burning structure that is clearly about to collapse. They do have an idea of when the risk is manageable to enter a structure, when it is necessary to pullback, and when it is best to not enter at all. They are heros. Only you could actually be uncertain on this.

Question is, who is a protestor directly "saving" by marching toward an armed battle unit? Was it wise to bring along women and children in their demonstration? What did they hope to accomplish other than become fodder for the media feeding fest?

Always blame the victim, this way you can avoid ever criticizing "your" side. Go with the team! Don't ever hesitate!

The devil is in the details. You won't get far just by reacting to sensationalist newspaper headlines.

[New]

Originally posted by Artman @_@
" Israel also blamed the Palestinians, saying gunmen infiltrated the crowd of about 3,000 people protesting the incursion into the Rafah refugee camp. Witnesses denied militants were among the marchers, and Palestinian leaders denounced the incident as a massacre."

Ooop. My bad. They're both asshats...

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7447/peace-lovingpalestinianprotestor.jpg


Could you please post the source of this picture?

[Artman @_@]

Originally posted by New
Could you please post the source of this picture?

A photojournalist at the march...no, wait...I photoshopped it. The whole damn situation in the Middle East was photoshopped. Didn't you know that?

Find it yourself.

You can start here...but be warned the images are graphic. (http://pro.corbis.com/sectionfront/default.aspx?Category=6)

:smokey:

[New]

Originally posted by Artman @_@
A photojournalist at the march...no, wait...I photoshopped it. The whole damn situation in the Middle East was photoshopped. Didn't you know that?

Find it yourself.

You can start here...but be warned the images are graphic. (http://pro.corbis.com/sectionfront/default.aspx?Category=6)

:smokey:

hey, relax smokey!
I wanted the source since these picures have not surfaced in regular israeli sources, and I wanted a cofirmation that they are actually from this incident.

Several sources are claiming that there were no armed men in the dmonstration.

[New]

Excellent photosite. But... I can't seem to find that picture...

[segovius]

Can't find it either - and the photos of Rafah (10 plus pages and 10-20 or so a page) seem to be not all from the demo/last few days.

In fact I think it seems too be a photo pool where only the first page or so relates to the incident afaict.

Great site though - the pic of 5 year old junior in Brooklyn on the homepage is incredible.

[New]

Originally posted by Tulkas
I haven't seen NEW start a thread about the loss of Jewish women and childen, having their throats cut in their homes.
That argument works both ways.

The deaths of israeli children is just as horrible as the death of palestinian children. Just as illeagal and unjust.

But I have to wonder. If I lived in Gaza, I would fear for my children. I would try to get away from there in any way I could.

What on earth makes someone bring their children willingly into a war-zone like Gaza?

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by Tulkas
[B]Sammi....so upset at childrens deaths...never upset when they are jewish children though..you know, the ones always on the buses that explode?

Sorry to rain on your preconceptions, but go check the AO archives on this subject. As I pointed out earlier on, I have railed harsher against Hamas, Islamic Jihad terror groups than the Israeli equivalent. Perhaps someone needs to speak out for the Palestinian kids....the media ignores them, as if they are lesser humans than Israeli kids. Perhaps it's because their religion is "incorrect", so their lives aren't worth it.

Humans are humans, life is life, favoritism be damned.

[bunge]

Originally posted by sammi jo
...

A hip drag queen and
a side-walkin' street wheeler,
Comin' down the avenue.
They're all your friends,
you'll come to love 'em
There's a load of 'em
waitin' for you.

Lookout Jo, you're comin' home.
Old times were good times,
Old times were good times.

Remember Millie
from down in Philly?
She took my brain
and forgot my name.
The woman you were with
was about the same
She took your money and left town.

Lookout Jo, you're comin' home.
Old times were good times,
Old times were good times.

Glory Hallelujah!
Will I lay my burden down?
Singin' on the streets around:
Look at that crazy clown.

Remember Bill from up on the hill?
A Cadillac put a hole in his arm.
But old Bill, he's up there still,
Havin' a ball
rollin' to the bottom.

Lookout Jo, you're comin' home.
Old times were good times,
Old times were good times.

[Scott]

Originally posted by New
so the next time a bomb goes of in israel, it's the fault of every Arab (as loong as he is a muslim)?


Just drop what you are doing and post a thread here in AO. Go on and on about the "cycle of violence" that the arab muslims terrorist are propagating and how they are trying to "destabilize" the region and how the terrorist "madness needs to stop".

[Scott]

Originally posted by bunge
He's too blindly racist to acknowledge that fact.

Talk about being banned? If you're not at the top of the list I don't know why should be there.

[tonton]

Originally posted by Tulkas
Sammi....so upset at childrens deaths...never upset when they are jewish children though..you know, the ones always on the buses that explode?

Yes, this is a pretty horrible incident. Too bad people on this thread only feel it is horrible enough to discuss when it is Arab who have died. Yes, I know, all violence is the ME is bad, yet you all seem to only get riled up about it when it is acts of violence from the jewish state. I can't remember ever seeing SJo post link after repetitive link regarding the evils and corruption of the PA. I haven't seen NEW start a thread about the loss of Jewish women and childen, having their throats cut in their homes. Bunge has yet to get into a heated arguement decrying the busloads of jews killed every year. Sure, these people may throw in the occasional "boy, that was awful" or "well, the wasn't nice" but it's always with conditions. "well, that was awful that a busload of jews got blown up again...damn Sharon..He is to blame"


Scott has said as much, but of course you all just dismiss it as extremist rantings. Easy to brush it off a rationalise your onesided views. But, perhaps scott is right. perhaps for some, but not all, you views are based on a hatred of jews, perhaps not even a hatred you acknoledge to yourself. It wasn't too long ago I remember reading about another incident where every one jumping up and down about an act involving Irsael. At the time I think it was said that it was due to "typical jewish arrogance". Realistically, that statement could be assigned to many of you and you wouldn't flinch.

Geesus, do I hear an echo in here?

Let me repeat by quoting myself:

In case you still don't get it, the difference is that although both Hamas and the current Jewish government are clearly terrorist organizations, the US is only giving money and weapons to one of them. The US is only supporting one of them. The US is only condemning one of them (and when I say US I mean every US administration, including Clinton). That's why we people feel the need to speak out when we see such injustice. Justice would be for ALL terrorists, Sharon and Arafat alike, to be treated equally.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by sammi jo
Perhaps someone needs to speak out for the Palestinian kids....the media ignores them, as if they are lesser humans than Israeli kids.

The only thing the media ignores about those kids their involvement in the intifada. Arafat decried a few years ago that pictures of Palestinian children carrying guns and bomb belts hurt their image in liberal Europe. So, the media, eager to obey, ignores those stories and pictures.

You are right, those children shouldn't have died. And the peaceful demonstration shoudldn't have included armed members.

[Randycat99]

Oops! :embarrass

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by tonton
Geesus, do I hear an echo in here?

Let me repeat by quoting myself:
In case you still don't get it, the difference is that although both Hamas and the current Jewish government are clearly terrorist organizations, the US is only giving money and weapons to one of them. The US is only supporting one of them. The US is only condemning one of them (and when I say US I mean every US administration, including Clinton). That's why we people feel the need to speak out when we see such injustice. Justice would be for ALL terrorists, Sharon and Arafat alike, to be treated equally.
The Jewish goventment is not a terrorist organisation. They are acting as any other govenment would, faced with a population within their borders and surrounded by nations bent of destroying them.

As far as funding, who cares who is funding them. If not for US funding, their would be no Israel. And as much as that concept may please some here, it would involve the "liquidation of the zionist presence." Many palestinian groups are well sponsored by Europe. Europe is only condemning one side. Europe is only suporting one side. So, shouldn't that make people feel the need to speak out when they see injustice?

[Randycat99]

I wonder how many AI members here would participate in an "adopt a Palestinian family" program. If you wish for them to have a home, you can finally enable that wish- let them share yours! Then you can post back here to let us know what wonderful housemates they are turning out to be...

Hmmm...maybe I should write my liberal congressman/woman about this idea! :lol:

[New]

Originally posted by Randycat99
I wonder how many AI members here would participate in an "adopt a Palestinian family" program. If you wish for them to have a home, you can finally enable that wish- let them share yours! Then you can post back here to let us know what wonderful housemates they are turning out to be...

Hmmm...maybe I should write my liberal congressman/woman about this idea! :lol:

ah... haha... I get it... ethnic cleansing... grrrrweat idea...

definition... (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oi=defmore&q=define:Ethnic+cleansing)

[New]

Randycat, FYI, My palestinian friends are excellent people. Their hospitality are only rivaled by my american friends. ;-)

[New]

Originally posted by Scott
Just drop what you are doing and post a thread here in AO. Go on and on about the "cycle of violence" that the arab muslims terrorist are propagating and how they are trying to "destabilize" the region and how the terrorist "madness needs to stop".

Don't argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Sun-Tzu

[segovius]

Originally posted by New
Don't argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Sun-Tzu

:lol:

The answer to a fool is silence.

Afghan proverb

[bunge]

Originally posted by Tulkas
The [Palestinian] goventment is not a terrorist organisation. They are acting as any other govenment would, faced with a population within their borders and surrounded by nations bent of destroying them.

...

Many [Israeli] groups are well sponsored by [the US of A]. [The US of A] is only condemning one side. [The US of A] is only suporting one side. So, shouldn't that make people feel the need to speak out when they see injustice?

Yes!

Europe condemns the suicide bombings but you choose to ignore it. If you acknowledge it, your argument is completely false so instead you pretend. Your fantasy about the region doesn't jive with reality.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Tulkas
The only thing the media ignores about those kids their involvement in the intifada. Arafat decried a few years ago that pictures of Palestinian children carrying guns and bomb belts hurt their image in liberal Europe. So, the media, eager to obey, ignores those stories and pictures.

You are right, those children shouldn't have died. And the peaceful demonstration shoudldn't have included armed members.

So you consider a one year old 'involved' and complicit in the intifada? When their parents dresses them up, you consider them a valid target? That's sick in the head.

And when people bring guns to an NRA rally in Colorado, or a political rally in Texas, are they valid targets as well?

You can try to justify things but they still don't make sense. Even if someone, or many people, in that rally were carrying guns you can't simply kill them. They're on their own land, in a legal gathering, not attacking anyone. You can't kill people for that. And if for some reason they started shooting, you still can't kill them with tank rounds and missles. No matter how much you want to do that, it's illegal. It's no better than Dachau.

[New]

Originally posted by New
Excellent photosite. But... I can't seem to find that picture...

any progress artman?

[tonton]

Originally posted by Tulkas
The Jewish goventment is not a terrorist organisation. They are acting as any other govenment would, faced with a population within their borders and surrounded by nations bent of destroying them.

As far as funding, who cares who is funding them. If not for US funding, their would be no Israel. And as much as that concept may please some here, it would involve the "liquidation of the zionist presence." Many palestinian groups are well sponsored by Europe. Europe is only condemning one side. Europe is only suporting one side. So, shouldn't that make people feel the need to speak out when they see injustice?

Sorry, I meant "Israeli" government.

They are acting as any other government would? Bull. Any other government that shot civilians with missiles from attack helicopters, bulldozed homes that were legally owned property, erected barriers on public land to "keep out" unwanted ethnicities would be internationally condemned (except the US of course).

The Israeli government and Hamas are both terrorist organizations.

[segovius]

Originally posted by New
any progress artman?

artman ......?

[tonton]

I've never seen so many racists in my life. They clearly think that the Jews are better than the Palestinians, even though both sides keep killing eachother. When the Palestinians kill innocent Jews, they are outraged, but when the Jews kill innocent Palestinians Israel is just doing "what any other government would do".

Meanwhile, why would I adopt a hardline Jewish family into my home and not a Palestinian one? To imply that we wouldn't want Palestinians in our homes is clearly racist on a level that can only lead one to believe you think all Palestinians are terrorists. Racist bigot. Racist bigot. the words you use to blame Muslims for what's wrong in the Middle East are equivalent to the words Hitler used to condemn the Jews. You are racist and your hatred is exactly what perpetuates this war.

Now as far as who started this freaking war... Israel stole their land. STOLE IT.

And then you say "but the negotiations" (whine whine whine). I say again. Let's say Israel stole California from YOU and after decades of negotiation finally told you you could have the Mojave desert but only if you agree to drop any further claim for more territory. Let's say Israel decided to bulldoze your HOME at 4 in the morning. Like you wouldn't be pissed and try any means necessary to stop the bulldozers... :rolleyes:

http://homepage.mac.com/bentonton/arthurdent.jpg

[segovius]

Israeli forces have pulled back (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3734581.stm) leaving a trail of destruction to property as well as the toll of dead people err....Palestinians.

During their three-day occupation the Israeli troops demolished homes, ripped up streets and even destroyed the zoo.

A large olive orchard has been destroyed; there is not a tree left standing, and every street around it has been churned up by the tanks, our correspondent says.

The tarmac has been stripped from the roads and the front of shops sheered off by the passing heavy armour, our correspondent adds.

Along with the demolished homes the only zoo in the Gaza Strip has been ruined. Most of the nearly 80 animals have either escaped or been killed.

Rafah's mortuary overflowed and many of the dead have had to be stored in freezers in different parts of town.

Following the violence on Wednesday the UN Security Council adopted a resolution condemning the deaths and demolitions.

The UN says recent house demolitions in Rafah by the Israeli army have left about 1,600 residents homeless.

The resolution, which was adopted by 14 votes to 0, also urged Israel not to demolish homes in violation of international law.


No-one is going to do anything. Israel is the mad-dog of the middle east now and has a license to kill.

Sharon said today that despite the pull-back, operations would continue.

Better find some more freezer space.

[New]

being a product of a disney generation, that stuff about the zoo somehow seems to say everything...

[Scott]

No real answer yet huh New? Don't "cut and run". Next time a bomb blows up a bunch of kids in the Jewish state run right here and post a thread. Okay?

[New]

Originally posted by Scott
No real answer yet huh New? Don't "cut and run". Next time a bomb blows up a bunch of kids in the Jewish state run right here and post a thread. Okay? answer to what?

[Harald]

Originally posted by Scott
No real answer yet huh New? Don't "cut and run". Next time a bomb blows up a bunch of kids in the Jewish state run right here and post a thread. Okay?

Let's just break this down.

You've no problem with tanks firing 'warning shots,' with innocent people getting killed in multiples of innocent Israelis, with even the zoo getting trashed?

Is there anything that the IDF could do that worry you? Anything?

[New]

Originally posted by Artman @_@
A photojournalist at the march...no, wait...I photoshopped it. The whole damn situation in the Middle East was photoshopped. Didn't you know that?

Find it yourself.

You can start here...but be warned the images are graphic. (http://pro.corbis.com/sectionfront/default.aspx?Category=6)

:smokey:

I still can't find that picture. Please, show me your source Artman.

'cause it's not hard to find disturbing pictures.

link (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img11&image=sp4b3228.jpg)

[Randycat99]

Originally posted by New
Randycat, FYI, My palestinian friends are excellent people. Their hospitality are only rivaled by my american friends. ;-)

All the more reason to indicate your neglect in giving them a home vs. moaning and whining until the Israel situation "works itself out". It's all empty words until you step up to the plate to put actions behind those words.

I don't know how you come about equating "adopt a family" with "ethnic cleansing". In bunge's logic, you might be a racist. :lol:

[Randycat99]

Originally posted by bunge
So you consider a one year old 'involved' and complicit in the intifada? When their parents dresses them up, you consider them a valid target? That's sick in the head.

Any reasonable parent would know that bringing them along to such an event is patently unsafe. Would you dress up your own infant in a mock suicide bomber outfit and then drop them off in the middle of an ensuing riot?

And when people bring guns to an NRA rally in Colorado, or a political rally in Texas, are they valid targets as well?

I was unaware that NRA and political rallies in the US end up in a movement to charge police/security forces with guns brandished. Usually they are imobile and the activities are clearly notified and scheduled. OTOH, a roving mob with live firearms is never an ingredient for a positive outcome.

You can try to justify things but they still don't make sense.

Neither do the absurd examples that are being brought up here, seemingly typified with missing specific contexts ("stealth bulldozers", for example). :lol: I'd almost have to say you are deliberately putting us on Onion style with these premises.

[Randycat99]

Originally posted by New
I still can't find that picture. Please, show me your source Artman.

I don't think you get the "gag". :lol: Yeah, keep looking for it. I think it is on page 23. :embarrass

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by Harald
Let's just break this down.

You've no problem with tanks firing 'warning shots,' with innocent people getting killed in multiples of innocent Israelis, with even the zoo getting trashed?

Is there anything that the IDF could do that worry you? Anything?

To level any criticism of Israel is so politically incorrect that officials don't dare do so in public. "Holocaust denier" or "anti-semitic" accusations have a similar stigma to being branded a pedophile, and that's what people are so afraid of that a balanced discussion of the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot happen.

Israel has all the ace cards, from unconditional US funding of their military (read terrorist) activities, possessing the worlds 4th largest stash of WMD, having wars fought for their benefit by the US, as well as being secure in the knowledge that they are immune to criticism because of what happened 60 years ago.

A BREAKDOWN OF UNITED STATES AID TO ISRAEL

Financial Aid

The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries4, even though Israel’s population comprises just .001% of the world’s population and has one the world’s higher per capita incomes.

*

Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 – making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5

*

The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.

*

Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.6

*

Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven – leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan – with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.

*

In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.



Military Aid

The United States provides direct and indirect military aid to Israel – totalling more than it gives to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean put together, whose combined total population is 1,054,000,000.

According to a US Department of Defence Joint Report to Congress in March 2001, “It is in the United States’ national interest to promote the existence of a stable, democratic and militarily strong Israel, at peace with its neighbours […]”.7 According to a US State Department statement in November 2002, the US government is committed to “maintaining and enhancing Israel’s security and qualitative edge over any combination of adversaries” and “the important advantages the US-Israeli strategic relationship has and will continue to provide us.”8

*

Foreign Military Financing (FMF) is grants to foreign governments financing the purchase of American-made weapons, services and training. Israel receives 50% of the FMF budget request. The large sums paid by the US to Egypt and Jordan are in recognition of the two countries signing peace accords with Israel in 1979 and 1994 respectively.


FMF Budget Request FY 2001: Total budget request: $3.54 billion
_ Budget request for Israel: $1.98 billion
_ Budget request for Egypt: $1.3 billion
_ Budget request for Jordan $75 million


*

The Economic Support Fund (ESF) promotes economic and political stability in areas strategically important to the US. It is not intended for military usage, but allows the recipient government to free up other money, therefore providing indirect military aid. Israel receives the largest single grant of the Near East budget, which alone is 79% of the total ESF request.

ESF Budget Request, FY 2001:
_Total budget request:
_$2.313 billion
_
Budget request for Near East:
_$1.828 billion, including:

Israel
_$840 million
_
Egypt
_$150 million
_
WB/GS
$100 million

Furthermore:

*

18 of the 92 pending arms sales transfers in the year 2000 were to Israel;
*

Israel has the world’s largest fleet of F-16s outside the US, currently possessing 200 jets -- with a further 102 on order with American manufacturer Lockheed Martin;
*

In June 2001 Israel again requested $800 million in supplementary US aid. This was originally pledged to cover the cost of the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon – in other words, Israel was being paid for complying with international law. As Israel re-requests this package, administration officials have considered linking it to the implementation of the Mitchell Report, again effectively paying Israel to comply with international standards;9


Charitable Aid

Private donations to American charities initially constituted one quarter of Israel’s budget. Today, it is estimated that these tax-deductible donations exceed $1.5 billion per year. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax deductible contributions to a foreign government does not exist for any other country.

US aid to Israel: A violation of US law

US law prohibits the President from providing military aid to any country that “engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognised human rights”.10 Under the 1967 US Arms Export Control Act, it is illegal to use US weapons to carry out extra-judicial killings. This act stipulates that weapons be sold to “friendly countries solely for internal security and legitimate defence.”

*

Since September 2000, the Israeli army has used attack helicopters, tanks and F-16 missiles to target Palestinian civilians, homes, forces, buildings and in demonstrations. In its Human Rights Report, the US State Department declared that Israeli army actions were an “excessive use of force”, noting that the Israeli forces used live ammunition, even when they were not in imminent danger, and that the Israeli military “shelled PA institutions and Palestinian civilian areas in response to individual Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians or settlers”.
*

The Israeli government’s policies in the occupied Palestinian territories have been condemned by human rights organisations worldwide. The Israeli army’s “excessive use of force” towards Palestinian civilians and its policy of “state assassinations” violate international human rights law. In supplying military aid to such a state, the US is violating its own laws.
_


1 CIA World Factbook, July 2001
2 Zunes, Stephen, “The Strategic Function of US Aid to Israel” (Washington Report on the Middle East December 2002)
3 ibid.
4 Washington Report on the Middle East December 2002
5 Ibid, as of 1 November 1997.
6 Ibid.
7 Foreign Military Training and DOD engagements, Activities of Interest, vol. 1, (fiscal year 1999-2000), Joint Report to Congress, March 1, 2001. Full text available through Federation of American Scientists’ website
8 “US promises Israel $2.16 billion military aid 2004,” Reuters, 21 November 2002
9 The Jerusalem Post, 28/6/01
10 22 USC 2304(a)



Why does America give this degree of aid to what is now a rogue nation with a war criminal as its leader, while we are supposed to be fighting a war against terrorism?

[Randycat99]

The Palestinians they are fighting aren't terrorists now? :lol: Isn't that one-sided. You, yourself, are guilty of what you accuse others of here. Welcome to the group.

[dmz]

Israeli army helicopter kills at least 20 protestors with missiles...


So what were the protestors doing with those missles?


;)

[Scott]

Originally posted by Harald
Let's just break this down.

You've no problem with tanks firing 'warning shots,' with innocent people getting killed in multiples of innocent Israelis, with even the zoo getting trashed?

Is there anything that the IDF could do that worry you? Anything?


When did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth. So YOU must have no problem with people parading around with bags full of dead Jew body parts. You're a sick-o.

[Scott]

Originally posted by sammi jo
To level any criticism of Israel is so politically incorrect that officials don't dare do so in public. "Holocaust denier" or "anti-semitic" accusations have a similar stigma to being branded a pedophile, and that's what people are so afraid of that a balanced discussion of the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot happen.

Israel has all the ace cards, from unconditional US funding of their military (read terrorist) activities, possessing the worlds 4th largest stash of WMD, having wars fought for their benefit by the US, as well as being secure in the knowledge that they are immune to criticism because of what happened 60 years ago.



Why does America give this degree of aid to what is now a rogue nation with a war criminal as its leader, while we are supposed to be fighting a war against terrorism?

Hey SJO be fail and balanced and give us the details on the aid the US gives the Palestinians.

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by Scott
Hey SJO be fail and balanced and give us the details on the aid the US gives the Palestinians.

http://usinfo.state.gov/mena/Archive/2004/Feb/27-646362.html

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/3-20-2004-51932.asp

For the first time in the history of U.S.-Palestinian relationship, the U.S. has directly given the Palestinian Authority chaired by Yassar Arafat, over $20 million on July 16, 2004. This is part of multi-million dollar package of aid to Palestinian communities to be used for repairing and maintaining roads, public buildings, and power, water and sewage lines damaged in years of fighting with Israel.

$20 million by July 16, 2004. Wow! Naturally, a token gesture is far better PR than nothing, and there is plenty of reference to this deal in the media. What will $20 million buy? Just for perspective one F-15 fighter costs $55 million. But make no mistake, most US 'aid' to Palestine is delivered by Israeli jets and helicopters. Destroy those villages to save them.

There is a strange typo later in the second link, where the national security adviser is referred to as MR Rice....

:wow:

[bunge]

Originally posted by Randycat99
Any reasonable parent would know that bringing them along to such an event is patently unsafe. Would you dress up your own infant in a mock suicide bomber outfit and then drop them off in the middle of an ensuing riot?


Tulkas wasn't talking about the march where people were blown to bits by helicopter missles and tank rounds. Your analogy doesn't work at all so please try again or admit you were wrong.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Randycat99
I was unaware that NRA and political rallies in the US end up in a movement to charge police/security forces with guns brandished. Usually they are imobile and the activities are clearly notified and scheduled. OTOH, a roving mob with live firearms is never an ingredient for a positive outcome.

Show some proof that this rally we're discussing ended up with a movement charging police/security forces with guns brandished. Make sure that this proof includes proof that the territory discussed was under Israeli control rather than Palestinian control. Also make sure you can prove this was a roving mob with live firearms. Can you give any support, not even proof, that this was the case? And can you support the idea that people should not and are not able to peaceably assemble? Does brandishing a gun mean you're not peaceable assembling? How many people at an NRA rally carry guns?

[bunge]

Originally posted by Randycat99
Neither do the absurd examples that are being brought up here, seemingly typified with missing specific contexts ("stealth bulldozers", for example). :lol: I'd almost have to say you are deliberately putting us on Onion style with these premises.

I haven't mentioned 'stealth bulldozers' so don't create a straw man argument. Attack my ideas, not those that agree with me. I've laid out two very simple but very strong arguments. I don't think you'll be able to counter either. If you can't honestly do that, then please retract your earlier statements.

[Randycat99]

Yes, as soon as these sorts of arguments aren't coming from SJO's keyboard, you are all about crying, "foul". :lol:

The response to your statements is simple. Prove that the rally was not. You are welcome to retract your statements, as well. Shouldn't you be busy reinterpreting people's ideas and summarily calling them racist (since they are not in agreement with your own ideas)?

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by bunge
Yes!

Europe condemns the suicide bombings but you choose to ignore it. If you acknowledge it, your argument is completely false so instead you pretend. Your fantasy about the region doesn't jive with reality.
Condemns it and does nothing. Europe would have been content condemning the holocaust and Rowanda...hollow words.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by bunge
So you consider a one year old 'involved' and complicit in the intifada? When their parents dresses them up, you consider them a valid target? That's sick in the head.

where did you get that from? SJO said the media ignores the Palestian children. I simply answered with the fact that part of the reason is that Arafat requested the western media not shown armed children, and the obliged. You righteous idignation is a bit over blown.
Originally posted by bunge

And when people bring guns to an NRA rally in Colorado, or a political rally in Texas, are they valid targets as well?

No. But, people who purposely place their children in harms way must take some of the blame if they are harmed.
Originally posted by bunge

You can try to justify things but they still don't make sense. Even if someone, or many people, in that rally were carrying guns you can't simply kill them. They're on their own land, in a legal gathering, not attacking anyone. You can't kill people for that. And if for some reason they started shooting, you still can't kill them with tank rounds and missles. No matter how much you want to do that, it's illegal. It's no better than Dachau. You are correct. I beleive they did not mean to fire into the crowd, but into an open field and an abandoned building as warning shots. But, of course, I am a naive, blind supporter or Israel, and they must actually be lying.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by tonton
Sorry, I meant "Israeli" government.

np. We'll just assume it was a freudian slip.

Originally posted by tonton
They are acting as any other government would? Bull. Any other government that shot civilians with missiles from attack helicopters,
The entire country is a war zone. Every other country that ever engaged in a war inflicted civilian casualties. The results will be higher in war zones where the militants hide and are suported by the civilian population.
Originally posted by tonton

bulldozed homes that were legally owned property, erected barriers on public land to "keep out" unwanted ethnicities would be internationally condemned (except the US of course).

The homes that are targetted are targetted with reason. Usually, they are owned by families of bombers. The barrier has nothing to do with stopping unwanted ethnicities. It stops murderous suicide bombers of all races.

Originally posted by tonton

The Israeli government and Hamas are both terrorist organizations.
Well, you are half right.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by tonton
I've never seen so many racists in my life. They clearly think that the [Arabs] are better than the [Jews], even though both sides keep killing eachother. When the [Jews] kill innocent [arabs], they are outraged, but when the [arabs] kill innocent [jews] Palestinians are just "freedom fighters".



Originally posted by tonton

Now as far as who started this freaking war... Israel stole their land. STOLE IT.

Overly vague...when?
Now as far as who stared this freaking war...Arabs stole their land. STOLE IT. Oh, they also tried to ethnically cleanse the area. An accusation often thrown at Israel too..of course if that were true, and they put as much effort into it as the Arabs did, their wouldn't be a war right now..just an Israel.

Originally posted by tonton

And then you say "but the negotiations" (whine whine whine). I say again. Let's say Israel stole California from YOU and after decades of negotiation finally told you you could have the Mojave desert but only if you agree to drop any further claim for more territory. Let's say Israel decided to bulldoze your HOME at 4 in the morning. Like you wouldn't be pissed and try any means necessary to stop the bulldozers... :rolleyes:


Well, what if the Native Americans stole California. Would the aboriginal people of the area be accused of stealing it, especially if the UN approved, no created, the conditions for the transfer of the land to the Natives?

[sammi jo]

The response to your statements is simple. Prove that the rally was not.

Asking someone to prove a negative is fatally flawed, logically....as good as meaningless. In criminal court cases (in democracies), the onus is on the prosecution to prove guilt, rather than on the defendant to prove innocence, and for good reason. For the same reason, asking S.H. to prove that he had no WMD was an impossible request, whether he did, or didn't.

[Randycat99]

Well, that explains how easily SH lead you by the nose. The more practical and functionality-minded among us know that such evidence can be offered via unobstructed inspections and proper/comprehensive documentation- "everything" accounted for and inventoried. Political waffling to "save face" in lieu of full disclosure is just not going to cut it here.

[New]

Originally posted by Randycat99
All the more reason to indicate your neglect in giving them a home vs. moaning and whining until the Israel situation "works itself out". It's all empty words until you step up to the plate to put actions behind those words.

I don't know how you come about equating "adopt a family" with "ethnic cleansing". In bunge's logic, you might be a racist. :lol:

They have homes. you seem to think it's okay to drive them away from these homes. Systematically. Which is by definition ethnic cleansing.

[New]

Originally posted by Randycat99
I don't think you get the "gag". :lol: Yeah, keep looking for it. I think it is on page 23. :embarrass
It's not in any major photojournalist outlet, as far as I can tell. So I'd like artman to tell where he got it. And if indeed it is from that rally at all.

[New]

Originally posted by Tulkas
Overly vague...when?
Now as far as who stared this freaking war...Arabs stole their land. STOLE IT. Oh, they also tried to ethnically cleanse the area. An accusation often thrown at Israel too..of course if that were true, and they put as much effort into it as the Arabs did, their wouldn't be a war right now..just an Israel.


Well, what if the Native Americans stole California. Would the aboriginal people of the area be accused of stealing it, especially if the UN approved, no created, the conditions for the transfer of the land to the Natives?

woah!?! ... what have you been reading. You used to be somewhat fair minded...

[bunge]

Originally posted by Tulkas
But, people who purposely place their children in harms way must take some of the blame if they are harmed.

Originally posted by Tulkas
The entire country is a war zone.

So by virtue of being in "Palestine" it's your fault. That's what you're saying and that makes no sense. You're born there so you'll be fired upon by tanks. Rethink your words.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Randycat99
The response to your statements is simple. Prove that the rally was not.

Because of the Geneva Convention I don't have to. It isn't legal to use tank fire on individuals, even armed ones. Fancy that.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by bunge
So by virtue of being in "Palestine" it's your fault. That's what you're saying and that makes no sense. You're born there so you'll be fired upon by tanks. Rethink your words. No, being in palestine means they are in palestine. They live in a war torn country and it is dangerous, that is true. However, there are those that purposely place their children even more at risk, greatly so, and you find that practice ok...nice.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Tulkas
No, being in palestine means they are in palestine. They live in a war torn country and it is dangerous, that is true. However, there are those that purposely place their children even more at risk, greatly so, and you find that practice ok...nice.

......the victim repeatedly bashed his face against a soldiers fist causing severe bruising to the knuckles whilst several other suspects provocatively placed themselves in danger by insisting on being Palestinians.

In one disgraceful case of malicious sabotage several people deliberately caused wanton damage to an Israeli missile by obstructing its flightpath with their bodies.....

[bunge]

Originally posted by Tulkas
No, being in palestine means they are in palestine. They live in a war torn country and it is dangerous, that is true. However, there are those that purposely place their children even more at risk, greatly so, and you find that practice ok...nice.

I think the response of segovius was a fair enough rebuttal, but in case you need someone to be more clear....

You say the Palestinians need to take some of the blame for this incident. To believe that you would have to ignore basically all of the facts of the situation.

[segovius]

You would think that the Israelis would be even a little aware of world censure and cool things down a bit - hell, even Bush is feeling like a mug for giving Sharon a blank cheque (again) but no, you'd be wrong.

Israel starts new Rafah incursion (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738449.stm)

This time it kicks off with a three year old girl taking two (that's two - not one which could be an 'accident') sniper bullets to the head.

Is there any reason at all why any country on the face of this planet can have permission to continue in this way whatever the circumstances ? Is there anyone who has ever done so and been allowed (and supported) in their actions ?

:mad:

[pfflam]

Originally posted by segovius
You would think that the Israelis would be even a little aware of world censure and cool things down a bit - hell, even Bush is feeling like a mug for giving Sharon a blank cheque (again) but no, you'd be wrong.

Israel starts new Rafah incursion (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738449.stm)

This time it kicks off with a three year old girl taking two (that's two - not one which could be an 'accident') sniper bullets to the head.

Is there any reason at all why any country on the face of this planet can have permission to continue in this way whatever the circumstances ? Is there anyone who has ever done so and been allowed (and supported) in their actions ?

:mad: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40184000/jpg/_40184359_ap203bodychild.jpg I can't believe this

at the risk of sounding 'anti-semitic' these assholes are assholes are assholes!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if the shooter was one of these ultra-right racists who just think of Palastinians as animals, or, if it was some sort of psycho who gers a thrill from killing the most beautifull things in the world: innocent children!!

I can understand the horror now, of chilldren's deaths, since the birth of my daughter . . . . I could think of nothing more horible than something happening to her
:mad: :mad: :mad:

I can no longer give any positive words for Israel: they are now acting like the same kind of monsters as suicide bombers, escept that they have great weapons and uniforms . . . sad

[bunge]

I'm going take a wait and see attitude on this one. If Israel did it, they'll probably be dumb enough to admit it.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by bunge

You say the Palestinians need to take some of the blame for this incident. To believe that you would have to ignore basically all of the facts of the situation.
What I said was "You are right, those children shouldn't have died. And the peaceful demonstration shoudldn't have included armed members." Both are true. I didn't at anytime blame the Palestinians for the death of the children. The deaths were wrong. If they were intentional, then Israel should own up to it. The default assumption sems to be that since it is Israel, then it must have been intentional. With that presupposition, then you are right, only one side is ever to blame.

This part of our conversation started with my comment on the media ignoring palestinian children involved in the intifada, at the request of Arafat for PR reasons. By your statements, using children in armed warfare is okeedokey. Nice world you live in. Now before you deny that you are okay with child combatants, please remember your statement "So you consider a one year old 'involved' and complicit in the intifada? When their parents dresses them up, you consider them a valid target? That's sick in the head." And while i would hardly consider them complicit, I would consider a child dressed up in a bomb belt, loaded with explosives and and few ball-bearings for real skull shredding effect, a valid target. I would hold their parents resonsible for their deaths. It seems you would only blame Israel. Typical.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by segovius
......the victim repeatedly bashed his face against a soldiers fist causing severe bruising to the knuckles whilst several other suspects provocatively placed themselves in danger by insisting on being Palestinians.

In one disgraceful case of malicious sabotage several people deliberately caused wanton damage to an Israeli missile by obstructing its flightpath with their bodies.....

Ahh ok, I am starting to get it. Since Palestine is an already dangerous place and Israel is to be blamed at all times, it is ok for Palestinians to use children as pawns and weapons in the Intifada...I mean they are already oppressed, so that makes it ok. gotcha.

to add to your quotes above "In another act of heineous aggression, the murderous Jewish people went out of their way to ruin another public street. The zionists had the nerve to leave a swath of mayhem when they left their legs, arms and heads laying in the street after another wonderful martyrdom action."

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by segovius
You would think that the Israelis would be even a little aware of world censure and cool things down a bit - hell, even Bush is feeling like a mug for giving Sharon a blank cheque (again) but no, you'd be wrong.

Israel starts new Rafah incursion (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738449.stm)

This time it kicks off with a three year old girl taking two (that's two - not one which could be an 'accident') sniper bullets to the head.

Is there any reason at all why any country on the face of this planet can have permission to continue in this way whatever the circumstances ? Is there anyone who has ever done so and been allowed (and supported) in their actions ?

:mad:
Where did you see that it was 2 sniper shots that killed her? I checked the Guardian, Haaretz and bbc and saw only the she was shot twice. Guardian says she was shot by an Israeli tank, not the best sniper platform. If she was targetted randomly by the Israeli army, then the soldier sho did it should be tried and hung, as should anyone who gave him that specific order. To be fair, which seems lacking when it comes to Israel, she could have been shot by Palestinain militants. It's not as though they haven't been know to kill a few innocents to make a point.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by pfflam
I can't believe this

at the risk of sounding 'anti-semitic' these assholes are assholes are assholes!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if the shooter was one of these ultra-right racists who just think of Palastinians as animals, or, if it was some sort of psycho who gers a thrill from killing the most beautifull things in the world: innocent children!!

Do you wonder the same thing when Jews are killed? I mean, there is a common sentiment in the region that Jews are animals or less. Or is that kind of attitude not wrong when it is directed at jews.

Originally posted by pfflam
I can understand the horror now, of chilldren's deaths, since the birth of my daughter . . . . I could think of nothing more horible than something happening to her
:mad: :mad: :mad:

And can you the understand an Israeli soldier, whose children or relatives have been butchered, feeling the same horror and anger?

Originally posted by pfflam
I can no longer give any positive words for Israel: they are now acting like the same kind of monsters as suicide bombers, escept that they have great weapons and uniforms . . . sad
And would you then have lost all you positive words for Paletinians, given that they have targetted children?

pfflam, not to deminish your feelings over this, but you post sort of demonstrates a point. There is rightfully much grief and anger over the death of a palestinian child. Rarely do you see such an unconditional outpouring when a jew dies. A post such as your in a thread about an israeli death would have additionally contained, or been responded to with blame cast at Sharon or Israeli policy or someother way to conditionally express anger, but point the finger at the victim.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Tulkas
Now before you deny that you are okay with child combatants, please remember your statement "So you consider a one year old 'involved' and complicit in the intifada? When their parents dresses them up, you consider them a valid target? That's sick in the head." And while i would hardly consider them complicit, I would consider a child dressed up in a bomb belt, loaded with explosives and and few ball-bearings for real skull shredding effect, a valid target.

How does my statement implicate me? That's a connection I don't see how you're making. I would deny your claim, but I honestly can't see the logic behind it. If you clarify, I could either amend my original statement or counter your claim.

As for your statement, sick in the head, like I said. A one year old is not a valid target. Your cut and dried version of reality would be harmful to the world if you had any influence.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Tulkas
If they were intentional, then Israel should own up to it. The default assumption sems to be that since it is Israel, then it must have been intentional.

I think I've been very clear about the default assumption. It's not valid to fire tank rounds at or near a crowd of people even if they have guns. Even if they're firing their guns at you. There are limits, and Israel crossed the line regardless of intent. Every conservative/anti-Palestinian here has ignored this fact that I've had to repeat several times.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Tulkas
To be fair, which seems lacking when it comes to Israel, she could have been shot by Palestinain militants. It's not as though they haven't been know to kill a few innocents to make a point.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Tulkas
There is rightfully much grief and anger over the death of a palestinian child. Rarely do you see such an unconditional outpouring when a jew dies.

This situation is analogous to the US in Iraq, or even the police on the streets. Yea, they're fighting nasty people sometimes, but you still have to show restraint especially when you're in a situation of almost absolute power. There are limits and rules that need to be followed regardless of how your enemy acts and what your enemy does. If you act as badly as your enemy, but do so willingly against all laws that you do have the power to follow, you're worse than your enemy.

Torture in the prisons of Iraq is not OK no matter what information that person may have. Tank fire on civilians is not OK, even if there were some gunmen in the crowd.

This is the reason I would consider the role of the Israelis more analogous to Nazi Germany. Their abuse of the position of power over a relatively helpless population.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by bunge

As for your statement, sick in the head, like I said. A one year old is not a valid target. Your cut and dried version of reality would be harmful to the world if you had any influence.
I never said anything about one years olds. But, your reasoning really shows why the children are being used as combatants...Guess they have to be 18 before the bomb belt they are wearing works properly..pretty smart bombs they've got over there.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by bunge


This is the reason I would consider the role of the Israelis more analogous to Nazi Germany. Their abuse of the position of power over a relatively helpless population. This is a very weak arguement. I have yet to read of Israeli gas chambers.

[New]

Originally posted by bunge
This situation is analogous to the US in Iraq, or even the police on the streets. Yea, they're fighting nasty people sometimes, but you still have to show restraint especially when you're in a situation of almost absolute power. There are limits and rules that need to be followed regardless of how your enemy acts and what your enemy does. If you act as badly as your enemy, but do so willingly against all laws that you do have the power to follow, you're worse than your enemy.

Torture in the prisons of Iraq is not OK no matter what information that person may have. Tank fire on civilians is not OK, even if there were some gunmen in the crowd.

his is the reason I would consider the role of the Israelis more analogous to Nazi Germany. Their abuse of the position of power over a relatively helpless population.

oh, but you forget. Torture is legal in Israel.

I think a parallel with apartheid south africa is more fitting. I really don't think anything can be likened to nazi-germany.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Tulkas
I have yet to read of Israeli gas chambers.

I guess the bulldozers aren't good enough for you?

[bunge]

Originally posted by New
I think a parallel with apartheid south africa is more fitting. I really don't think anything can be likened to nazi-germany.

Sure, but that's probably being kind to Israel. Unfortunately there is no exact analogy, but I think the premise of what I said is quite accurate.

[New]

Originally posted by bunge
Sure, but that's probably being kind to Israel. Unfortunately there is no exact analogy, but I think the premise of what I said is quite accurate.

Well, in some aspects you're probably right. The Justice Minister of Israel, Yousef Labid, Today compared the actions of israel in Rafah to the Holocaust. Haaretz link. (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/430587.html)

[segovius]

Originally posted by New
Well, in some aspects you're probably right. The Justice Minister of Israel, Yousef Labid, Today comared the actions of israel in Rafah to the Holocaust. Haaretz link. (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/430587.html)

He must be an anti-semite...

[bunge]

Those were very strong comments, but I have to say I agree with them.

[segovius]

Originally posted by bunge
Those were very strong comments, but I have to say I agree with them.

There is no doubt that the Israelis are undertaking a Pogrom against the Palestinian people - that alone is worthy of the comparison.

And just like in the thirties the world is again doing nothing but vacillating whilst a fascist has free reign to kill and murder.

Amid the rubble of dozens of homes that the Israeli army continued yesterday to deny demolishing, the wrecking of the tiny, but only, zoo in the Gaza Strip took on potent symbolism for many of the newly homeless.

The butchered ostrich, the petrified kangaroo cowering in a basement corner, the tortoises crushed under the tank treads - all were held up as evidence of the pitiless nature of the Israeli occupation.

"People are more important than animals," said the zoo's co-owner Mohammed Ahmed Juma, whose house was also demolished. "But the zoo is the only place in Rafah that children could escape the tense atmosphere. There were slides and games for children. We had a small swimming pool. I know it's hard to believe, looking at it now, but it was beautiful. Why would they destroy that? Because they want to destroy everything about us."

Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1222307,00.html)

Racism is an infectious disease - it can be passed on by the perpetrator to the victim. How else can we explain that the same things the Jews had to suffer are now being inflicted on others by them. It is a cancer.

[New]

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/images/0522-02.jpg

A terrorist is preparing his suicide racoon...

[New]

http://www.news24.com/Images/Photos/2004052116272321_pony.jpg

An anti-Semitic pony got what it deserved...

[Smircle]

Originally posted by New
I really don't think anything can be likened to nazi-germany.

One should be careful not to put things out of proportion. The Nazi party seizing power in Germany was not "merely" fascist or racist, it had made a very clear determination to exterminate jews. Exterminate, not "kill if they get in the way".
There are more parallels to the arab idea of the 60s of "throwing the jews back into the sea" than the current racial segregation in Israel. However, almost all states in the region have overcome this deadly ideology and accepted the right of Israel to exist.

Unfortunately, the Israel of today has developed more and more traits of a rogue state - defying UN resolutions, amassing WoMDs, founding and funding terrorist groups (Hamas) and willfully destroying the foundations of the Palestine society.

[New]

Originally posted by Smircle
One should be careful not to put things out of proportion. The Nazi party seizing power in Germany was not "merely" fascist or racist, it had made a very clear determination to exterminate jews. Exterminate, not "kill if they get in the way".
There are more parallels to the arab idea of the 60s of "throwing the jews back into the sea" than the current racial segregation in Israel. However, almost all states in the region have overcome this deadly ideology and accepted the right of Israel to exist.

Unfortunately, the Israel of today has developed more and more traits of a rogue state - defying UN resolutions, amassing WoMDs, founding and funding terrorist groups (Hamas) and willfully destroying the foundations of the Palestine society.

A very good post. The ideology of nazi-german was clear for all to see long before the war. But most chose to look away.

However it is, in Israel as well, important to see beyond the day to day events. And recognize that there are ideological ag