Why do they hate America?

[MaxParrish]

A book review in Foreign Affairs highlights "Anti-Americanism"

"L'ennemi americain: Genealogie de l'antiamericanisme francais. Philippe Roger. Paris: Seuil, 2002, 601 pp. 126.00.

...France remains the country in which anti-Americanism finds its most sophisticated intellectual expression in the West. This phenomenon persists despite the fact that few countries benefited more from the American security umbrella in the twentieth century.

...At a time when anti-Americanism is rising around the world and in France, and when, thanks to the prospect of war in Iraq, Americans are unusually interested in what France has to say, two distinguished French intellectuals have written what amount to anti-anti-American tracts.

L'obsession anti-americaine, by Jean-Francois Revel (best known in the United States as the author of Without Marx or Jesus), finds anti-Americanism to be a product of French political and moral failures. L'ennemi americain, by the well respected scholar Philippe Roger, traces the historical development of an anti-American discourse in France on both the right and the left over the past 200 years.

...These books are Franco-French products, intended to contribute to ongoing debates in France about France. They are not interested in what truths anti-Americanism reflects about America, or what Americans should do to minimize the power of visceral anti-American feeling around the world. Nevertheless, the non-French world should take note. What the authors have accomplished is to define what Roger calls a discourse of anti-Americanism: a free-floating but well defined set of ideas and perceptions that, over time, have crystallized into a coherent world view. Anti-Americanism in this sense is very different from opposition to some specific American policy; it is a systematic view of the United States as a danger to all one holds dear.

On the one hand, anti-Americanism is, as both Revel and Roger convincingly argue, a self-referential Franco-French phenomenon largely untroubled by larger questions of fact. On the other hand, the rise and persistence of this discourse reflects actual historical trends. Anti-Americanism developed and persisted in France because the United States thwarted, threatened, and diminished that country. Anti-Gallicism in the United States has had a fitful and shadowy life because France has only rarely risen to more than a nuisance in American eyes. In the realms of power politics, economics, and culture, French anti-Americanism is the psychological footprint of a conflict -- a conflict all the more irksome to the loser simply because the winner never seems to have paid it much attention..."

Well, why do they hate us?

[1337_5L4Xx0R]

Implicit in this is the belief that "they" "hate" "us" which is built on a multitude of half-truths, generalizations and projections that I have yet to see convincing proof for. Some Frenchies hate Americans, sure. But They, meaning all French? Most French? I seriously doubt it.

Many French (or Brits or <insert nationality>) take issue with the current administration's policies?

Hells yeah.

Now is a bad time to go back-packing the Middle East with an American flag badge sewn on one's backpack, but that doesn't mean everyone hates America. Please understand the distinction.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by 1337_5L4Xx0R
Implicit in this is the belief that "they" "hate" "us" which is built on a multitude of half-truths, generalizations and projections that I have yet to see convincing proof for. Some Frenchies hate Americans, sure. But They, meaning all French? Most French? I seriously doubt it.

Many French (or Brits or <insert nationality>) take issue with the current administration's policies?

Hells yeah.

Now is a bad time to go back-packing the Middle East with an American flag badge sewn on one's backpack, but that doesn't mean everyone hates America. Please understand the distinction.

winner.

[Harald]

The question should be, why does the US hate the French (with the caveat above)?

Why do the Murdoch papers trash the euro to the British people and regularly call Chirac a 'worm'?

Why does 'the US' keep saying the French hates the US, when it was US papers that called them 'cheese-eating surrender monkies' and changed the name of 'French fries' to 'freedom fries'?

Do you honestly think that the French papers EVER use hate-filled language like that, or that the French parliament would do something as pathetic and hate-filled as, say, ban burgers?

Do you think an American in Paris would be more or less welcome then a Parisian in America?

Clue: remember the invective on the street in the US in the run-up to war.

You are being told a lie. You are being made to believe that the French hate you, and that you should hate the French. Sure, they hate Bush; but hell, I hate the bastard and so does most of the planet.

[segovius]

Living in Paris (though not for much longer) this anti-US/anti-French issue is something I have never figured out.

I have lived all over Europe and I can honestly say that (imo) Framce is one of the most right-wing countries I have been unlucky enough to have experience of. Possible exception would be Italy - it even beats the UK which is saying one hell of a lot.

Sure, there are some vocal anti-Bush bashers in France (as everywhere) and the US left (again imo) latch on to these to bash the anti-French stance of many US wingers, thus elevating their importance far beyond what they intrinsically merit.

These same French 'intellectuals' all without exception supported the headscarf ban, a large percentage of them support Sarkozy (a politician somewhere to the extreme right of Mussolini and who will without doubt replace Chirac with a landslide majority) who enjoys almost saturation support amongst the general populace.

This is the nation that voted for Nazi Jean-Marie Le Pen to the degree he was runner-up in the national election. Tell me another country on the face of the planet that can trump that.

Racism and discrimination is endemic here (if not in institutionalised) and the police/army armed presence on the streets has reached saturation coverage.

And you have an extreme right leaning government bringing in discriminatory race laws. Do the math.

Sure some people hate Bush but that is a universal and in France's case mostly a reaction to the initial US attitude as Harald says. The thing is, the French just want the status quo and their own comfy, non-challenging life.

To them that means traditional cafes, few mass chains, no wars where someone (French) might get hurt and the general continuation of the 'French way of life' without disturbance.

Bush's policies lead in the opposite direction and he tried to get Europe on board - that's the only problem. There's no hate and if Bush hadn't messed up (as with so many other things) they'd be natural allies and best of chums.

The schism, such as it is, is just one more example of Bush failing to organise an orgy in a brothel on his father's gold Amex.

[MaxParrish]

Originally posted by Harald
The question should be, why does the US hate the French (with the caveat above)?

Why do the Murdoch papers trash the euro to the British people and regularly call Chirac a 'worm'?

Why does 'the US' keep saying the French hates the US, when it was US papers that called them 'cheese-eating surrender monkies' and changed the name of 'French fries' to 'freedom fries'?

Do you honestly think that the French papers EVER use hate-filled language like that, or that the French parliament would do something as pathetic and hate-filled as, say, ban burgers?

Do you think an American in Paris would be more or less welcome then a Parisian in America?

Clue: remember the invective on the street in the US in the run-up to war.

You are being told a lie. You are being made to believe that the French hate you, and that you should hate the French. Sure, they hate Bush; but hell, I hate the bastard and so does most of the planet. You ought to note that the review was of two new French books, both by respected intellectuals within France. They’ve identified “the obsession with anti-Americanism”.

One would have to have a very crabbed view, limited to recent history, to ignore that Europeans, in particular the French, have had a long history of obsessive anti-Americanism. Resentment of the leadership role of the United States in post-war Europe drove the French to leave the NATO military command and DeGaul to bitterly announce that America cared no more about the liberation of France than the Soviet Union cared about the liberation of Poland – an intemperate absurdity, particularly egregious because it was made by an allied leader in the cold war.

According to Revel, French interest in America becomes a frenzy at the first report of bad news – such as a rise in the unemployment rate. For days the French press will predict some dire end of America’s economic role. It is routine for the French to view the United States as the land of jungle capitalism, a place that is ruled by only the few super-rich. They consider American ‘diversity’ ideas to have failed, and tout their dubious successes at ‘integration’. And the French continually lash out against American business as either uncouth or unfair, as they are empowered by too much money.

As I recall, more recently, 113 French intellectuals signed a hit peace, warning the world of an evil much greater than terrorism: the United States.

This started long before Bush.

[ShawnJ]

Originally posted by MaxParrish
As I recall, more recently, 113 French intellectuals signed a hit peace, warning the world of an evil much greater than terrorism: the United States.

This started long before Bush.

Sure. We're a superpower that often supports tyrannical regimes with financial, military, and political influence; exploits other countries with "free-trade" agreements; quickly consumes the world's natural resources, polluting more than its fair share. I would agree to that statement. We have more power to change the world than terrorists can dream of. In that regard-- terrorism isn't the problem-- the issues underlying terrorism are the problem. And we have more power to help mitigate or exacerbate those issues than anyone. Historically, we've mainly prodded up terrorism.

[MaxParrish]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
Sure. We're a superpower that often supports tyrannical regimes with financial, military, and political influence; exploits other countries with "free-trade" agreements; quickly consumes the world's natural resources, polluting more than its fair share. I would agree to that statement. We have more power to change the world than terrorists can dream of. In that regard-- terrorism isn't the problem-- the issues underlying terrorism are the problem. And we have more power to help mitigate or exacerbate those issues than anyone. Historically, we've mainly prodded up terrorism.

Assuming you are not French, at least your opinions are not hypocritical. Given that France supported Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war (providing a major portion of his arms), helped make a mess of Zaire and Rhwanda, and 'historically' had more than its fair share of colonialism (e.g. Indochina) and brutality (Algeria) one wonders about the real source of the visceral dislike of American society and politics.

BTW, I got the story a little wrong:

"A group of 113 French intellectuals launched an appeal against the "imperial crusade" in Afghanistan: "In the name of the law and morality of the jungle" (not because 3,000 people had been murdered), "the Western armada administers its divine justice." Of course, if any parties in this entire affair believed themselves to be divine, it was the Islamists--the kind that murders thousands of innocent civilians in the name of Allah, or the kind that, in Nigeria and Sudan, massacres Christians for being unwilling to submit to sharia. In two months alone, several hundred Nigerian Christians were exterminated by Muslims. Our 113 intellectuals had nothing to say about it." Revel

[burningwheel]

freedom fries!!!!!!!!!! :lol: the most stupid thing america may have ever done, ok at least one of the most stupid things

[segovius]

Originally posted by burningwheel
freedom fries!!!!!!!!!! :lol: the most stupid thing america may have ever done, ok at least one of the most stupid things

You can get "W" ketchup to go with them now....

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by burningwheel
freedom fries!!!!!!!!!! :lol: the most stupid thing america may have ever done, ok at least one of the most stupid things

I always thought the ironic backfire of that joke. If you extend the Words Freedom to replace French and France, then you end up renaming France Freedom land.(or something to that effect ;)

[pfflam]

Originally posted by segovius
You can get "W" ketchup to go with them now.... . . .pulpy red stuff made from crushed nightshades into a stewlike gruel, a virtually thin, runny vegetable . . . n'est-pas?!

[Anders]

At least people can avoid buying Heinz. People can´t avoid buying Haliburton because your government is doing it for you.

[pierr_alex]

We don't hate you, stupid. We're not, (have never — ever — been) anti-American.
We just hate your president and his stupid propaganda.

[MaxParrish]

Originally posted by pierr_alex
We don't hate you, stupid. We're not, (have never — ever — been) anti-American.
We just hate your president and his stupid propaganda.

From Stupid,

Of course you're not, that's self evident. :no:

[BuonRotto]

<under the ever-watchful eye of the mods> :err:

[burningwheel]

Originally posted by segovius
You can get "W" ketchup to go with them now....
i'm ashamed to be an american:embarrass

[Aquatic]

I'll tell you why they hate us. A guy walked in to Sears today and he's like "Kerry has a face I don't trust." That's why. Americans are stupid.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by Aquatic
I'll tell you why they hate us. A guy walked in to Sears today and he's like "Kerry has a face I don't trust." That's why. Americans are stupid.

I've heard that before, actually disturbingly enough, I've heard it a bunch from people all over the country(both first hand and otherwise) stuff like "I can't vote for kerry, I look at him, I just don't like the way he looks" or "I just don't feel like I can trust him" or "he's just the type of person you don't think you can trust"

of course, I highly doubt that these voters are so vane in their reasoning, additionally, I've also heard a good wealth of people say the same things about bush(or more note worthy and consistently about cheney)

Not exactly a standard to judge anything by, but it is a lame thing to hear, especially if there is any truth in it.

[pfflam]

People are like that all over the world . . . . probably even in Iceland . . .

[X X]

Originally posted by Harald
Do you think an American in Paris would be more or less welcome then a Parisian in America?

Clue: remember the invective on the street in the US in the run-up to war.

You are being told a lie. You are being made to believe that the French hate you, and that you should hate the French. Sure, they hate Bush; but hell, I hate the bastard and so does most of the planet.

Hell ya the French hate us. I experienced that first hand 6 years ago when I went to France. Treated like shit simply because we were Americans. Not only in Paris but other parts of France, too. Had no problems in any other European country we went to; just France. Also had a guide from Belgium who explained why they were doing some of the things they did.

I've also had relatives who had problems with the French when they visited. No problems anywhere else, though.

As far as French in America: I befriended quite a few while they were here, and I don't know a single person who would treat a Frenchman like crap simply because they were French.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

.

[pierr_alex]

Originally posted by X X
Hell ya the French hate us. I experienced that first hand 6 years ago when I went to France. Treated like shit simply because we were Americans. Not only in Paris but other parts of France, too. Had no problems in any other European country we went to; just France. Also had a guide from Belgium who explained why they were doing some of the things they did.

I've also had relatives who had problems with the French when they visited. No problems anywhere else, though.

As far as French in America: I befriended quite a few while they were here, and I don't know a single person who would treat a Frenchman like crap simply because they were French.
Maybe you're not a very nice person and you have no friends anywhere ;-)
P.S. So what did your Belgium guide revealed you...?

[Powerdoc]

I am sorry to say this, Max Parrish but french people are more interested by the latest soccer match, or by their beloved reality TV show than by the US.

Bush is not very popular here, but is not popular in others european countries either (do not speak of the governements here).

Saying that french hate US is grossly overexagerated. Some leftist intellectuals think so, because US represant the capitalist countrie by excellence. The left is not the majority of france, and the intellectuals are a very small part of the population ...

If french, hate so much US, how do you explain that US attract so many french people ?


Segovius. I disagree with your statement about the extremely right winded mussolinian Sarkozy. For me it's a joke. I could not let you write this without noticing. Feel free to elaborate, but I fear that nobody here, will be interested by this discussion. :p

[segovius]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
Feel free to elaborate, but I fear that nobody here, will be interested by this discussion. :p

Well, I have to agree there - I know when I'm beaten so I'll leave Sarkozy out of it. I don't think even I could handle it actually :D

[jimmac]

Originally posted by MaxParrish
A book review in Foreign Affairs highlights "Anti-Americanism"

"L'ennemi americain: Genealogie de l'antiamericanisme francais. Philippe Roger. Paris: Seuil, 2002, 601 pp. 126.00.

...France remains the country in which anti-Americanism finds its most sophisticated intellectual expression in the West. This phenomenon persists despite the fact that few countries benefited more from the American security umbrella in the twentieth century.

...At a time when anti-Americanism is rising around the world and in France, and when, thanks to the prospect of war in Iraq, Americans are unusually interested in what France has to say, two distinguished French intellectuals have written what amount to anti-anti-American tracts.

L'obsession anti-americaine, by Jean-Francois Revel (best known in the United States as the author of Without Marx or Jesus), finds anti-Americanism to be a product of French political and moral failures. L'ennemi americain, by the well respected scholar Philippe Roger, traces the historical development of an anti-American discourse in France on both the right and the left over the past 200 years.

...These books are Franco-French products, intended to contribute to ongoing debates in France about France. They are not interested in what truths anti-Americanism reflects about America, or what Americans should do to minimize the power of visceral anti-American feeling around the world. Nevertheless, the non-French world should take note. What the authors have accomplished is to define what Roger calls a discourse of anti-Americanism: a free-floating but well defined set of ideas and perceptions that, over time, have crystallized into a coherent world view. Anti-Americanism in this sense is very different from opposition to some specific American policy; it is a systematic view of the United States as a danger to all one holds dear.

On the one hand, anti-Americanism is, as both Revel and Roger convincingly argue, a self-referential Franco-French phenomenon largely untroubled by larger questions of fact. On the other hand, the rise and persistence of this discourse reflects actual historical trends. Anti-Americanism developed and persisted in France because the United States thwarted, threatened, and diminished that country. Anti-Gallicism in the United States has had a fitful and shadowy life because France has only rarely risen to more than a nuisance in American eyes. In the realms of power politics, economics, and culture, French anti-Americanism is the psychological footprint of a conflict -- a conflict all the more irksome to the loser simply because the winner never seems to have paid it much attention..."

Well, why do they hate us?


God! You really don't get it do you?

Bush didn't do anything for our image with that little gesture of attack first find the reason to attack later.

If we keep that up we'll be the loser. It could easily be that in 100 years we could be a has been major power. Why? Because nobody would do business with us because they don't trust us.

1950's logic where we are the only player on the field just won't work anymore. We have to learn to be respectful and play nice.

[a10t2]

Originally posted by X X
Hell ya the French hate us. I experienced that first hand 6 years ago when I went to France. Treated like shit simply because we were Americans. Not only in Paris but other parts of France, too. Had no problems in any other European country we went to; just France. Also had a guide from Belgium who explained why they were doing some of the things they did.

I've also had relatives who had problems with the French when they visited. No problems anywhere else, though.

As far as French in America: I befriended quite a few while they were here, and I don't know a single person who would treat a Frenchman like crap simply because they were French.

Do you speak any French? I've been to France three times and seen the majority of the country and on every occasion I've had to interact with French people, from public officials to rural families, they were kind and gracious to me. On a few occasions I was literally welcomed into someone's home once they found out I was American. This is not to say that people weren't sometimes rude, but for the love of god, try walking across Manhattan sometime and see how people react to you. I've talked to all kinds of Americans who shared your sentiments about the French people and it's been my experience that if you dig enough they were (perhaps unintentionally) rude themselves. And yes, speaking only English in a foreign country and expecting to be understood is rude.

[X X]

Originally posted by pierr_alex
Maybe you're not a very nice person and you have no friends anywhere ;-)
P.S. So what did your Belgium guide revealed you...?

I vaguely remember what he said, but it had something to do with the French veiwing Americans as lazy, flaunting their money, and having poor dining habits. Also, I think he mentioned something about how Americans don't know a bit of French and talk to the French like they should know English.

[X X]

Originally posted by a10t2
And yes, speaking only English in a foreign country and expecting to be understood is rude.

I fully understand that, which is why my brother did most of the talking, (he spoke a little French), and we attempted to speak French whenever we could. However, my language is German (not too well anymore) and when I went to Germany it seemed to me the Germans couldn't care less whether I spoke German or not, and only spoke English even when I did speak German.

[a10t2]

Originally posted by X X
However, my language is German (not too well anymore) and when I went to Germany it seemed to me the Germans couldn't care less whether I spoke German or not, and only spoke English even when I did speak German.

That's exactly the experience I had in France; people who spoke English were proud to show it off.

How exactly were you treated like shit in France?

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by X X
I fully understand that, which is why my brother did most of the talking, (he spoke a little French), and we attempted to speak French whenever we could. However, my language is German (not too well anymore) and when I went to Germany it seemed to me the Germans couldn't care less whether I spoke German or not, and only spoke English even when I did speak German.

Well here is my personal opinon about talking :

People are always pleased to see somebody trying to speak their own language, but manytimes they could not resist to the pleasure to show that they speak the language of the foreigner.
When I met an english people, I like to speak english with it : it's not because I find his french sucks, but because I am so happy to be able to speak english.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by X X
Hell ya the French hate us. I experienced that first hand 6 years ago when I went to France. Treated like shit simply because we were Americans. Not only in Paris but other parts of France, too. Had no problems in any other European country we went to; just France. Also had a guide from Belgium who explained why they were doing some of the things they did.

I've also had relatives who had problems with the French when they visited. No problems anywhere else, though.

As far as French in America: I befriended quite a few while they were here, and I don't know a single person who would treat a Frenchman like crap simply because they were French.

I guess you where unlucky, there is bad people everywhere. If I met an american or any foreigner I will try to be nice with him, because I think it's very important to give a good image of your self or your countrie.

I went to the Guadeloupe Caraiban island last year. People told me and my wife, that this people where arrogant. I did not find it, they where nice, but I try to be respectful with people. I don't say it wasn't your case, but beware that unconsciously you negative feelings.

[X X]

Originally posted by a10t2
That's exactly the experience I had in France; people who spoke English were proud to show it off.

How exactly were you treated like shit in France?

The first currency exchange place we went to the guy tried ripping me off. When I caught it, I simply went back up to him and politely show him the "mistake" he gave me this evil look and tossed the rest of the money on the counter. We were put upstairs away from everyone else in restaurants and in one instance being ignored (fortunately we had our Belgian friend at the time) until the Belgian spoke up. We also got kicked out of a youth hostile. We had stayed their one night and weren't allowed to sign up again for another night.

We were only there for four days and didn't have a whole lot of interaction because we spent a lot of time on the road, but when we did it wasn't the best experience.

[X X]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
I guess you where unlucky, there is bad people everywhere. If I met an american or any foreigner I will try to be nice with him, because I think it's very important to give a good image of your self or your countrie.

I went to the Guadeloupe Caraiban island last year. People told me and my wife, that this people where arrogant. I did not find it, they where nice, but I try to be respectful with people. I don't say it wasn't your case, but beware that unconsciously you negative feelings.

I guess I was. I understand there are plenty of great Frenchmen. We were advised to speak French or try and speak French (they would help you if you attempted to speak their language) before we went, which is why my brother did most of the talking and that Belgian tagged along for a bit, but the behaviour in France was a stark contrast from how we were treated in the other countries.

[segovius]

Originally posted by X X
We also got kicked out of a youth hostile.

well what do you expect :lol:

[X X]

Originally posted by segovius
well what do you expect :lol:

???

[edit] Nevermind, I see what you mean. LOL!

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by X X
Hell ya the French hate us. I experienced that first hand 6 years ago when I went to France. Treated like shit simply because we were Americans. Not only in Paris but other parts of France, too. Had no problems in any other European country we went to; just France. Also had a guide from Belgium who explained why they were doing some of the things they did.

I've also had relatives who had problems with the French when they visited. No problems anywhere else, though.

As far as French in America: I befriended quite a few while they were here, and I don't know a single person who would treat a Frenchman like crap simply because they were French.

uhh If you were treated poorly it is most likely because you were crude and tasteless.

I was in Paris and my friend and I had the best hospitality you can imagine from the people in France.

We were looking at a map and this very kind young woman came up to us and helped us. She spoke English and helped us to find our way.

In all the places we went the French people spoke english as well and this was very good for us as we do not speak French.

When I arrived at Paris at CDG airport the process was very professional and welcoming.

When I returned to America via. Atlanta Hartsfield I never felt so unwelcome and this was in my home country. There were endless lines like you are cattle on the way to slaughter and large signs everywhere that say "KEEP MAD COW DISEASE OUT OF AMERICA" and other nice things like that. It felt very confrontational to come back to this place called america.

The employees at Hartsfield were loud, crude, annoying, and 95% of them were morbidly obese.

in Paris the employees at CDG were very intelliigent, quiet, and helpful..

I actually felt more at home in Paris than I do here in America

Fellowship

[segovius]

Originally posted by X X
???

Apologies - know I shouldn't have but I couldn't resist. The idea of a Youth Hostile where they kick you out seemed so...Pythonesque. :D

Btw, Fellowship is right about Paris - civilization and politeness are unparalleled - and rudeness too !

[X X]

Originally posted by Fellowship
uhh If you were treated poorly it is most likely because you were crude and tasteless.

We were not "crude and tasteless". We put more effort into being "accepted" in France than we did in any other country specifically because of the warnings we had received before going. Our so called "crude and tasteless" tact didn't generate any bad behaviour in any other country except France, then.

[X X]

Originally posted by segovius
Apologies - know I shouldn't have but I couldn't resist. The idea of a Youth Hostile where they kick you out seemed so...Pythonesque. :D

Btw, Fellowship is right about Paris - civilization and politeness are unparalleled - and rudeness too !

I understood what you meant after I read more closely. Just took me a second.

There are plenty of nice Europeans, and I'm certain that many of the Americans who have been treated like crap probably deserved it.

[pierr_alex]

Originally posted by X X
We were not "crude and tasteless". We put more effort into being "accepted" in France than we did in any other country specifically because of the warnings we had received before going. Our so called "crude and tasteless" tact didn't generate any bad behaviour in any other country except France, then.
I think that you came here in your dreams ;-)

Where did you go in france to find such hostile people...?

[segovius]

Back on topic, you've got to query this comment quoted by the thread starter:

"France remains the country in which anti-Americanism finds its most sophisticated intellectual expression in the West."

It is firstly a loaded statement. That 'remains' sets up a presumption which is by no means a given. When were the French ever the leaders in this field ? On whose authority ?

Secondly it is arguably blatantly false. There are very few 'intellectuals' in France nowadays and those that do exist are moderate to extreme right-wing in many ways. Revel would be a textbook example of this.

The fashion in France nowadays is for 'secularism' which although nominally can be taken to mean an antipathy towards religions and deist conceptions generally, does in practice on the ground, translate merely into extreme Islamophobia. Again a stereotypical right-wing paranoia that at times verges on the clinical.

In this they are merely aping the right as they exist anywhere and in America in particular. You could make a far better argument that the French are the most pro Americans in Europe (certainly they cannot beat Germany, Greece or Spain in anti-US sentiment) and that they have merely fallen out temporarily as declining and corrupt regimes so often do.

[X X]

Originally posted by pierr_alex
I think that you came here in your dreams ;-)

Where did you go in france to find such hostile people...?

Paris, Nice, some other place West of Geneva to sleep in a parking lot (because of my brother), and another place on the Mediterranean.

I'll tell you what...In the next couple of years, I'd like to go back to Europe to take my wife and I'll let you know how it ends up then. I'm sure it will be better based on what everyone has said. Perhaps it was just bad luck, but my response was more in the direction to Harald who said that it was a fabrication and we were being lied to.

Regards!

[MaxParrish]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
I am sorry to say this, Max Parrish but french people are more interested by the latest soccer match, or by their beloved reality TV show than by the US.

Bush is not very popular here, but is not popular in others european countries either (do not speak of the governements here).

Saying that french hate US is grossly overexagerated. Some leftist intellectuals think so, because US represant the capitalist countrie by excellence. The left is not the majority of france, and the intellectuals are a very small part of the population ...

If french, hate so much US, how do you explain that US attract so many french people ?


Segovius. I disagree with your statement about the extremely right winded mussolinian Sarkozy. For me it's a joke. I could not let you write this without noticing. Feel free to elaborate, but I fear that nobody here, will be interested by this discussion. :p
I did post “why do the hate us” as catchy bait for a more exciting discussion than “Mutual Franco-American Perceptions in the 21st Century”.

I doubt that, as a people, ‘they hate us’ – although a close friend of mine who travels Europe won’t go to France because he thinks them (from experience) the rudeist people he’s ever met.

However, ‘obsessive anti-Americanism’ in regards to our culture, politics, and economics seems to be far more prevalent. Contrary to a few other posters, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BUSH. Both books were written and published long before the invasion of Iraq (the beginning of 2002) and address issues far deeper than the first 12 months of the Bush administration. In fact, Revel wrote a book on the same issue in 1969…and marveled that not a lot has changed.

The French for some time have freaked over America as the sole ‘hyperpower’ and American‘unilaterialism’, as well as the ills of ‘globalism’ (tied to the US). It was only a few days after 9-11 that French opinion leaders started murmuring that Americans shared responsibility for the deaths due to our governments policies. Publications gloat over rising unemployment in the US, blame the US for the falling price of beef, and for aids in Africa. From groups as diverse as ATTAC to La Pen (and publications like Politis) anti-Americanism seems pervasive.

[MaxParrish]

Originally posted by segovius
Back on topic, you've got to query this comment quoted by the thread starter:

"France remains the country in which anti-Americanism finds its most sophisticated intellectual expression in the West."

It is firstly a loaded statement. That 'remains' sets up a presumption which is by no means a given. When were the French ever the leaders in this field ? On whose authority ?

Secondly it is arguably blatantly false. There are very few 'intellectuals' in France nowadays and those that do exist are moderate to extreme right-wing in many ways. Revel would be a textbook example of this.

The fashion in France nowadays is for 'secularism' which although nominally can be taken to mean an antipathy towards religions and deist conceptions generally, does in practice on the ground, translate merely into extreme Islamophobia. Again a stereotypical right-wing paranoia that at times verges on the clinical.

In this they are merely aping the right as they exist anywhere and in America in particular. You could make a far better argument that the French are the most pro Americans in Europe (certainly they cannot beat Germany, Greece or Spain in anti-US sentiment) and that they have merely fallen out temporarily as declining and corrupt regimes so often do.

First, The reviewer was Walter Russel Mead of Foreign Affairs (A Journal published by the Council on Foreign Relations). As a leading journal in its field, I assume the reviewer has been vetted as qualified to review these books.

www.foreignaffairs.org/

Or do a search on "foreign affairs revel".

This "french anti-americanism among intellectuals" is a common perception, dating back to Sarte.

Second, as 113 of these intellectuals signed an anti-American screed, I find that (there are no french intellectuals) difficult to believe.

Third, your underlying assumption is that the extreme right is 'pro-American'. From what I understand La Pen and associated reactionaries are just as Anti-American as the left...

[Harald]

Originally posted by X X
Perhaps it was just bad luck, but my response was more in the direction to Harald who said that it was a fabrication and we were being lied to.

Regards!

Yeah, you are.

They don't hate you, but people like Murdoch are trying to make you hate them.

I stand by it.

"Freedom fries" indeed.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by MaxParrish
First, The reviewer was Walter Russel Mead of Foreign Affairs (A Journal published by the Council on Foreign Relations). As a leading journal in its field, I assume the reviewer has been vetted as qualified to review these books.

www.foreignaffairs.org/

Or do a search on "foreign affairs revel".

This "french anti-americanism among intellectuals" is a common perception, dating back to Sarte.

Second, as 113 of these intellectuals signed an anti-American screed, I find that (there are no french intellectuals) difficult to believe.

Third, your underlying assumption is that the extreme right is 'pro-American'. From what I understand La Pen and associated reactionaries are just as Anti-American as the left...

Le Pen is a right winged populist, he surf among the sadest feelings common in france, like racism, nationalism ...
Many people vote le Pen, only to say Fuck you to politicians, and not because any real convictions.
Anti americanism exist but is very limited : if you want to see real anti-americanism, I suggest you to look in some part of the middle east.

In reverse, there is an anti-french behavior in USA, but it will never prevent me to go there, because I am sure that there is plenty of nice people, who did not give a rat-ass weither I am french or Martian.

And Segovius is right, there is not many intellectuals in France, right or left. Many people claims to be intellectual, but they don't deserve this mention. Sartre was an intellectual but very difficult to read. He died some decades ago, so his influence is small.

As a simple french people having acess to different groups of people, I can say that :
- people where really worried for 9/11
- people don't like Bush policy
- anti-americanism is very limited, and is more common to the left, who dislike the US model of economy (can you expect that a socialist love this model ?)
- There was great emotion for the 60 anniversary of the D-Day, especially among the older generations.

For me, if this sentiment exist in France he do not prevail. You will still find people who call the germans Boch, althought Germany is the best friend/ally of France.
The fact that book exist show that there is differents way of thinking in France, and some are agaisnt anti-americanism. It's not because Michael Moore did Farheinheit that every US people hate Bush. Sure some US people hate Bush, but it's not all american people, by a wide margin.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
In reverse, there is an anti-french behavior in USA, but it will never prevent me to go there, because I am sure that there is plenty of nice people, who did not give a rat-ass weither I am french or Martian.


You are welcome anytime Powerdoc!

Any time..

Fellows

[pierr_alex]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
Le Pen is a right winged populist, he surf among the sadest feelings common in france, like racism, nationalism ...
Many people vote le Pen, only to say Fuck you to politicians, and not because any real convictions.
Anti americanism exist but is very limited : if you want to see real anti-americanism, I suggest you to look in some part of the middle east.

In reverse, there is an anti-french behavior in USA, but it will never prevent me to go there, because I am sure that there is plenty of nice people, who did not give a rat-ass weither I am french or Martian.

And Segovius is right, there is not many intellectuals in France, right or left. Many people claims to be intellectual, but they don't deserve this mention. Sartre was an intellectual but very difficult to read. He died some decades ago, so his influence is small.

As a simple french people having acess to different groups of people, I can say that :
- people where really worried for 9/11
- people don't like Bush policy
- anti-americanism is very limited, and is more common to the left, who dislike the US model of economy (can you expect that a socialist love this model ?)
- There was great emotion for the 60 anniversary of the D-Day, especially among the older generations.

For me, if this sentiment exist in France he do not prevail. You will still find people who call the germans Boch, althought Germany is the best friend/ally of France.
The fact that book exist show that there is differents way of thinking in France, and some are agaisnt anti-americanism. It's not because Michael Moore did Farheinheit that every US people hate Bush. Sure some US people hate Bush, but it's not all american people, by a wide margin.
To give a little background, I'll add this...

• Le Pen is a shame to our country, sure. But it's a known fact that he was a political creature created by Mitterand (our President before Chirac) to break the right in parts (you know, we're not a two party country) to win a second term. The problem is, the creature stayed alive... and did everything it could to keep on existing. To the point that it made it to the second turn of the elections in 2002, due to a fragmented left (you know, we're not a two party country ;-) and finished at 18% votes ! Now, the man (J-Marie Le Pen) is getting old and his daughter (Marine Le pen, his successor) is just not taken seriously. For those interested in some statistics on Le Pen (http://www.ipsos.fr/CanalIpsos/articles/899.asp) (it's in French, but full of graphics ;-)

• Anti-Americanism : Doesn't exists. honestly. Except in the mind of some complicated theorists, but you can't impeach people from thinking what they want and sign petitions. Those Leftish intellectuals do not even represent the actual French left, which is mostly center-left and has nothing against America IMHO. You could compare them to a J.Kerry better than J.Stalin.

But I'll add something : You Americans are very 'Transparent'. We know a lot about you, about your ways of life. We have tons of 'cultural' products from your country: Movies, Sitcoms (from Friends to Alias), iPods, etc... News or Opinion websites that we can read and understand... Even your government communicates a lot, more than any other.
So we have an opinion on your affairs. Something you can't really do with us because you don't know anything about us. (I think few of you read Libération (http://www.libe.com) (left), Le monde (http://www.lemonde.fr)(center) or Le Figaro (http://www.lefigaro.fr) (right) very often. Whereas the NYT, the WashPost and the LA Times are in my Bookmarks. You never see our movies (they are rarelly blockbusters — I agree), witch are the best ways to understand a country's references, humour, past, societal problems...) - We see yours !
Just one other example (not French) : If you want to understand modern Spain, see every Pedro Almodovar movies. Those movies are also important to us Europeans. We're not just Postcards (http://www.latimes.com/travel/columnists/postcards/comments/).

• Almost everyone here hates Bush. That's a fact. And the fact that he lied about WMD and that we (and the U.N.) said so a the time makes him even more detestable. The fact that he was warned that Iraq would become the playground for Islamic extremists/terrorists of all kind didn't changed anything. Now see the mess we're in... (to paraphrase Tom York (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=14714439&selectedItemId=14714461) ;-)

• What else now... Well, it took me 2 hours to write twenty line and I forgot where I wanted to go...
Whatever, we love you buddies, just be carefull where you put your feets - and replace your ignorant President ;-)

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by Fellowship
You are welcome anytime Powerdoc!

Any time..

Fellows

Thanks :)

[ColanderOfDeath]

Anti-Americanism : Doesn't exists. honestly. Except in the mind of some complicated theorists, but you can't impeach people from thinking what they want and sign petitions. Those Leftish intellectuals do not even represent the actual French left, which is mostly center-left and has nothing against America IMHO. You could compare them to a J.Kerry better than J.Stalin.

Nonsense. Anti-Americanism exists just as surely as Islamophobia or Anti-Semitism. France has more than its fair share. Doesn't mean every Frenchman is a bigot, but the denial of its existence is a cheap way to gloss over a problem. Likewise such prejudices exist in the US including a segment of the population which espouses Francophobia. Ignoring the problem doesn't help solve it.

But I'll add something : You Americans are very 'Transparent'. We know a lot about you, about your ways of life. We have tons of 'cultural' products from your country: Movies, Sitcoms (from Friends to Alias), iPods, etc... News or Opinion websites that we can read and understand... Even your government communicates a lot, more than any other.
So we have an opinion on your affairs. Something you can't really do with us because you don't know anything about us. (I think few of you read Libération (left), Le monde(center) or Le Figaro (right) very often. Whereas the NYT, the WashPost and the LA Times are in my Bookmarks. You never see our movies (they are rarelly blockbusters — I agree), witch are the best ways to understand a country's references, humour, past, societal problems...) - We see yours !

Indeed. Tell me, during your travels through America, how well did your experiences fit your preconceived notions of America?

<Tongue Meets Cheek> A shame that I ever bothered to go to France when I could have merely sat around sipping Beaujolais Nouveau and reading Proust and I would have gotten the same experience. Oh wait. Americans don't drink wine, even crappy wine at that and they certainly don't read literature. Well then I suppose I shall go see if they are showing a special on the Eiffel Tower on the Travel Channel and I'll sip a nice Belgian beer. Belgium, France, they're practically neighbors and the Belgians speak French anyway when they are not speaking German. Or that other thing that they speak. So same thing. </Tongue Meets Cheek>

Transparent is a good choice of words for your post. For someone preaching no Anti-Americanism you were pretty quick to appeal to a common stereotypes and caricatures of Americans. Americans are ignorant of other cultures, worship wealth, have a bankrupt culture which they export for financial gain, yada yada yada. Do you realize that this is another variation on prejudice whose only difference is that it is far more fashionable than others at present? No different than the notion that the Muslim is an angry fundamentalist who comes to Europe to exploit its welfare system while engaging in street crime. Or that the Jew is a selfish money grubbing banker trying to control the world. Or that the Frenchman is a lazy coward who smells bad, is rude, arrogant and hypocritical. Or that the German is a represseed humorless machine whose women are mostly shaped like bull cows. Or that the Italian is an ass-grabbing mafioso. All the same. Unfortunately neither my electronic trinkets, nor my glowing box which tells me what to think, nor my glorious President- God Bless him- nor my minister have managed to capture my short American attention span so I'm left to reply to Frenchmen on an internet message board in order to distract me from the pain of my hollow American existence. Hopefully none of the 300 million other Americans will follow suit. Replying to all of them might be time consuming for you. On the other hand, since you've already gotten them all pegged the same and you know what we know and don't know, well then you can just copy and paste the same reply to each one of us.

replace your ignorant President ;-)Gladly. I hope you'll do the same as well with your head of state. Chirac's attempts at achieving an artificial revival of French geopolitical influence by using a garbled combination of EU and UN empowerment to further his vision of multipolarity with French culture as the epicenter of the other pole is certainly one of the greatest threats to Western unity and thereby global security at present. Let's hope these dangerous men can be removed.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath


Gladly. I hope you'll do the same as well with your head of state. Chirac's attempts at achieving an artificial revival of French geopolitical influence by using a garbled combination of EU and UN empowerment to further his vision of multipolarity with French culture as the epicenter of the other pole is certainly one of the greatest threats to Western unity and thereby global security at present. Let's hope these dangerous men can be removed.

I agree with this one, but for differents reasons. I don't want Chirac seeking for a third mandate. I think that we should adopt the US constitution who limit the president to two mandates.

And for the the greatest threat to western unity, it sounds to me like a joke :p

[MaxParrish]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
I agree with this one, but for differents reasons. I don't want Chirac seeking for a third mandate. I think that we should adopt the US constitution who limit the president to two mandates.

And for the the greatest threat to western unity, it sounds to me like a joke :p You must appreciate that Americans have always liked the French.

After traveling the country, Mark Twain had many kind thoughts about the French people:


In certain public indecencies the difference between a dog & a Frenchman is not perceptible.
- Notebook #17, October 1878 - February 1879

France has usually been governed by prostitutes.
- Notebook #18, Feb.- Sept. 1879

Trivial Americans go to Paris when they die.
- Notebook #18, Feb.- Sept. 1879

A Frenchman's home is where another man's wife is.
- Notebook #18, Feb.- Sept. 1879

An isolated & helpless young girl is perfectly safe from insult by a Frenchman, if he is dead.
- Notebook #20, Jan. 1882 - Feb. 1883

A dead Frenchman has many good qualities, many things to recommend him; many attractions--even innocencies. Why cannot we have more of these?
- Notebook #20, Jan. 1882 - Feb. 1883


;)

[Powerdoc]

Mark Twain, was famous for not having his tongue in cheeks. Considering the times where he live, it was fantastic :D

I am not Expert of Twain, but I think he made others fantastic comments about other countries, or part of the US society ;)

[ColanderOfDeath]

Twain really had nothing bad to say about Americans. His wrath was pretty much directed at Frenchmen, especially those who work in cosmetic surgery. When you're trying to pilot a steamboat nothing is more irritating than the visual distraction of your passengers' fake boobs bouncing around and the accompanying sloshing noise- which is eerily similar to that of water entering a breached hull- that those bouncing Powerdoc-implanted boobs make.

[pfflam]

I am an American with a bilingual French background:

I got both ends of the spectrum growing up:
Some friend's families were extreme Francophiles and believed, in their vulgar, nouvauex riche way, that I, because I was part French, could give the final yay or nay on their outrageously over-priced bottles of wine that they paraded around!! Hah! I don't even like wine!

The other end of the spectrum, and this happened more, was getting rude remarks to my mother's accent while in public,
and, in school being ridiculed because they immediately assumed that since my mother was French that we were complete snobs . . . and I mean ridiculed, non-stop teasing . . . .

I tend to think that there is such a thing as anti-Americanims in France and that some of it is justified: I think that much of France is afraid of the 'Gigantism' of American culture: giant strip-malls, giant shopping, wall-marts etc, giant driving, cars, Cities that are designed exclusively around automobiles!!! big expensive and vapid movies etc as well as the fear that the slower life that seems to be concerned with elements of life other than making money might dissapear if the influence of American culture continues: fast food, desperation to keep jobs, no vacation time, no non-work life . . . and all this for giant paychecks with little taxation devoted to the non-profit aspects of life. I can see that many Europeans are afraid of loosing some subtle values that are embedded in their culture that Americans, at least the exporting big business sort, patently find unimportant . . . . somethng subtle which some peope might feel is absolutely essential ifthe term 'civilized' is to be used in conjunction with Civilization

I see the surrounding region around the city of Tours in France and I see a reall Americanification: huge endless strip malls on and on for miles . . . I don't think that it is 'American' but that it has become associated with America because it is our business model that is being exported.

(I think this point about the cities and automobiles is a deeply American situation: I think the car has shaped America and Americanism more than any other single factor, and is probably responsible for the shape of our current business models, and, IMO, our lack of civility and social relations and yes, a form of alienation . . . we don't relate to one another on the street like many old European cities where the people make a point to take walks in the crowded city center each day -- our 'city centers' are gigantic shopping malls that you have to get in your car to get to . . . and sometimes even get in your car just to get to another store IN THE SAME MALL! also this contributes very much to our epidemic of obesity .
. . in fact, this epidemic is perfectly symbolic, no, symptomatic of the problems with American 'Gigantism' stemming from our automobile culture

anyway, of course there are many fantastic things that have come from this said culture (think 68 finned Cadillac!!!!) as well as a intellectual mobility that, in Camille Paglia's (para)phrase: "doesn't need Deconstruction, we allready are Deconstructed"

anyway . . . two cents

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath
Twain really had nothing bad to say about Americans. His wrath was pretty much directed at Frenchmen, especially those who work in cosmetic surgery. When you're trying to pilot a steamboat nothing is more irritating than the visual distraction of your passengers' fake boobs bouncing around and the accompanying sloshing noise- which is eerily similar to that of water entering a breached hull- that those bouncing Powerdoc-implanted boobs make.

The irritating thing with a steamboat, is that your hands are already busy with the weel, and that they can do nothing for these fine boobs or butts ...

I have suggested Twain once, that I may graft him two arms, but he replied me that one hand was sufficiant for his sexual practices ...How unfortunate, he was, to lose such an opportunitie :D

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by pfflam
I am an American with a bilingual French background:

I got both ends of the spectrum growing up:
Some friend's families were extreme Francophiles and believed, in their vulgar, nouvauex riche way, that I, because I was part French, could give the final yay or nay on their outrageously over-priced bottles of wine that they paraded around!! Hah! I don't even like wine!

The other end of the spectrum, and this happened more, was getting rude remarks to my mother's accent while in public,
and, in school being ridiculed because they immediately assumed that since my mother was French that we were complete snobs . . . and I mean ridiculed, non-stop teasing . . . .

I tend to think that there is such a thing as anti-Americanims in France and that some of it is justified: I think that much of France is afraid of the 'Gigantism' of American culture: giant strip-malls, giant shopping, wall-marts etc, giant driving, cars, Cities that are designed exclusively around automobiles!!! big expensive and vapid movies etc as well as the fear that the slower life that seems to be concerned with elements of life other than making money might dissapear if the influence of American culture continues: fast food, desperation to keep jobs, no vacation time, no non-work life . . . and all this for giant paychecks with little taxation devoted to the non-profit aspects of life. I can see that many Europeans are afraid of loosing some subtle values that are embedded in their culture that Americans, at least the exporting big business sort, patently find unimportant . . . . somethng subtle which some peope might feel is absolutely essential ifthe term 'civilized' is to be used in conjunction with Civilization

I see the surrounding region around the city of Tours in France and I see a reall Americanification: huge endless strip malls on and on for miles . . . I don't think that it is 'American' but that it has become associated with America because it is our business model that is being exported.

(I think this point about the cities and automobiles is a deeply American situation: I think the car has shaped America and Americanism more than any other single factor, and is probably responsible for the shape of our current business models, and, IMO, our lack of civility and social relations and yes, a form of alienation . . . we don't relate to one another on the street like many old European cities where the people make a point to take walks in the crowded city center each day -- our 'city centers' are gigantic shopping malls that you have to get in your car to get to . . . and sometimes even get in your car just to get to another store IN THE SAME MALL! also this contributes very much to our epidemic of obesity .
. . in fact, this epidemic is perfectly symbolic, no, symptomatic of the problems with American 'Gigantism' stemming from our automobile culture

anyway, of course there are many fantastic things that have come from this said culture (think 68 finned Cadillac!!!!) as well as a intellectual mobility that, in Camille Paglia's (para)phrase: "doesn't need Deconstruction, we allready are Deconstructed"

anyway . . . two cents

Big is beautifull. That's the way I see USA, even the mountains are bigger here ;)

[Anders]

I know you are old power, but that you knew Mark Twain comes as a surprise.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by Anders
I know you are old power, but that you knew Mark Twain comes as a surprise.

The most difficult part is to look young. Too many lift on me have backward effects : now you understand why this is my favorite smiley :D