DNC General Discussion

[ShawnJ]

Glenn Close is speaking now.

Spouting the usual clichés about "never forgetting" and "unspeakable tragedy," but she managed to spin her short speech into a positive message about humanity-- not just Americans.

Arab-American woman speaking now.

Spouting the usual clichés about "everything changing," but still a pretty touching speech about solidarity and community.

Ha!

Someone is literally playing a violin now. Oh this is too good...

Judy, Jeff, and Wolf yakking it up.

Ah the punditry just threw the Democrats a bone. Apparently, the Clintons aren't speaking necessarily for themselves, but for the Democratic Party. Makes me wonder about all those other times they speak. ;)

Why is CNN quoting Drudge?

:rolleyes:

Hillary time: political polarity ensues across the nation, but that room sure lit up.

Peace, promise, and prosperity. Nicely alliterative slogan. Hardly original.

Safer and more secure future.

Lead the world, not alienate it.

HA!

"I know a thing or two about health care"

[applenut]

Billy still is a pretty good speaker

[groverat]

Clinton rocks the house. I forgot that presidents used to be able to speak English.

[applenut]

Originally posted by groverat
Clinton rocks the house. I forgot that presidents used to be able to speak English.

kind of makes you wonder how much he'd win by if he were running this time around

[ShawnJ]

That was... beautiful.

[pfflam]

I just caught the end of his speech!

He is good . . . .
Is it just me or was the reaction of the audience a little subdued?

[trick fall]

If only Kerry could speak like Clinton.......

[midwinter]

The big dog still has it.

[Anders]

Originally posted by trick fall
If only Kerry could speak like Clinton.......

Que Edwards. He should colour his hair grey and he is halfways there.

[Cake]

Seems like hell froze over when Joe Scarborough said, "I'd sleep well at night, even though I disagree with 90% of what he says, with Kerry as President". :wow:

Coming from Joe, that's a hell of a statement.

[trick fall]

How much more interesting would it be if they actually picked the nominees at these things. It would make for great tv.

[rageous]

Yes, these conventions are largely cliche fests anymore. It's unfortunate.

But Bill Clinton did give yet another excellent speech. I'm glad I caught that part of it.

[Paul]

Bill's transcript (http://www.dems2004.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=luI2LaPYG&b=125919&ct=158734)

the best part: (condensed to fit in my away message)
Democrats and Republicans have very different and honestly held ideas on that choices we should make...Democrats want to build an America of shared responsibilities and shared opportunities and more global cooperation, acting alone only when we must...Republicans believe in an America run by the right people, their people, in a world in which we act unilaterally when we can, and cooperate when we have to. They think the role of government is to concentrate wealth and power in the hands of those who embrace their political, economic, and social views, leaving ordinary citizens to fend for themselves on matters like health care and retirement security...they have to portray us Democrats as unacceptable, lacking in strength and values. In other words, [the Republicans] need a divided America.

[ShawnJ]

Transcript (http://www.dems2004.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=luI2LaPYG&b=125919&ct=158734) of Bill Clinton's speech now up.

My favorite part succinctly and intelligently summarizes the differences between the two parties (not simply or ignorantly accuses anyone of "hating freedom" or "hating america."):

"We Americans must choose for President one of two strong men who both love our country, but who have very different worldviews: Democrats favor shared responsibility, shared opportunity, and more global cooperation. Republicans favor concentrated wealth and power, leaving people to fend for themselves and more unilateral action. I think we’re right for two reasons: First, America works better when all people have a chance to live their dreams._ Second, we live in an interdependent world in which we can’t kill, jail, or occupy all our potential adversaries, so we have to both fight terror and build a world with more partners and fewer terrorists._ We tried it their way for twelve years, our way for eight, and then their way for four more._"

also:

"Here is what I know about John Kerry. During the Vietnam War, many young men—including the current president, the vice president and me—could have gone to Vietnam but didn’t. John Kerry came from a privileged background and could have avoided it too._ Instead he said, send me."

[faust9]

As much as I despised Clinton, I'll hand it to the old dog. He could/can talk a nun out of her knickers if he put his mind on it. It all boils down to the definition of is.

[Aquatic]

I know. It's almost a tragedy, that he can't keep it in his pants. :(

Imagine how popular he would have been without that stupid scandal.

[Anders]

Why not see the whole thing:

rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/c04/c04_dnc072604_bill.rm?mode=compact

[Existence]

Al Gore's Speech > Bill Clinton's speech. And talk about subtextual Fruedian slips--Bill Clinton was yelling at the convention "Send me!" towards the end.


FYI, Dean is speaking tonight at 7:40 EST.

www.democracyforamerica.com

[running with scissors]

Originally posted by faust9
As much as I despised Clinton, I'll hand it to the old dog. He could/can talk a nun out of her knickers if he put his mind on it. It all boils down to the definition of is.

clinton is a smooth one, that's for sure. another very good speech by a master communicator. he and ronnie are/where the kings of their craft.

[Common Man]

A festival of charlatans.

[sammi jo]

Great speech. Clinton is the master orator.

And it had the sincerity of the john saying to the whore: "I love you".

[running with scissors]

Originally posted by Common Man
A festival of charlatans.

the charlatans where playing, i thought they broke up?

[BRussell]

Ann Coulter's take (http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=4610A). Some choice quotes:
Here at the Spawn of Satan convention in Boston, conservatives are deploying a series of covert signals to identify one another, much like gay men do. My allies are the ones wearing crosses or American flags. The people sporting shirts emblazoned with the "F-word" are my opponents. Also, as always, the pretty girls and cops are on my side, most of them barely able to conceal their eye-rolling.
As for the pretty girls, I can only guess that it’s because liberal boys never try to make a move on you without the UN Security Council's approval. Plus, it’s no fun riding around in those dinky little hybrid cars. My pretty-girl allies stick out like a sore thumb amongst the corn-fed, no make-up, natural fiber, no-bra needing, sandal-wearing, hirsute, somewhat fragrant hippie chick pie wagons they call "women" at the Democratic National Convention.
:lol:

[Aquatic]

A festival of charlatans.

Hey that's a big word! Did you go on www.thesaurus.com to find it?

[running with scissors]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
:rolleyes:

The condescension and vile misogyny of the previous 4 posts do not belong in this thread. Let's move on.

my gut reaction is to say "unclinch your sphincter and get over yourself shawn". but first, i need to go look up those big words in your post, just to be sure.

[running with scissors]

Originally posted by running with scissors
my gut reaction is to say "unclinch your sphincter and get over yourself shawn". but first, i need to go look up those big words in your post, just to be sure.

yep, i thought so. i'll go with my gut.

[ShawnJ]

BARAK OBAMA TONIGHT.

SHOULD BE GOOD!

:)

[BRussell]

George Bush was at the convention listening to speeches and picking his favorites.
http://www.lazygranch.com/images/nosepic/nosepick1.jpg

[Anders]

I cleaned this up for a reason. Lets make an effort to let this threads stay open m´kay?

[Existence]

Correction. Howard Dean speaking at 9 PM EST.

www.democracyforamerica.com

[a_greer]

Did anyone catch ted kennedy's speach? I and all of the people in the room think he something about the soldiers being "false patriots" Surely I am takeing this out of context, did he really say that? I really hope I heard wrong.



Splash,
A_Greer

[addabox]

Originally posted by a_greer
Did anyone catch ted kennedy's speach? I and all of the people in the room think he something about the soldiers being "false patriots" Surely I am takeing this out of context, did he really say that? I really hope I heard wrong.



Splash,
A_Greer

Of course you heard wrong. Do you actually think that Kennedy would stand up at the Democratic Convention and disparage soldiers?

He was referring to members of the Republican party who would use "patriotism" as a wedge issue.

[ShawnJ]

WHY IS EVERYONE SHOUTING THEIR SPEECHES?

[addabox]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
WHY IS EVERYONE SHOUTING THEIR SPEECHES?

THAT AIN'T SHOUTIN', THAT THERE'S SPEECHIFYIN'!

[BRussell]

Well Howie just came on - let's all hope he doesn't shout.

[edit] People were going crazy for Dean. Then they showed Terry McAuliffe, and he was kind of half-heartedly clapping, looking around, kind of hoping no one saw him.

[edit 2] Watching him makes me feel bad. Even though I wouldn't have voted for him in the primaries, he really should have won. He probably represents Democrats better than any of the other candidates, and he ran a great campaign. Oh well.

[Aurora]

I find it interesting Bill O'reileys interview with Michael Moore at the convention. Bill who has no children that im aware says he would sacrifice his kids in fallujah when Michael Moore asked him while Moore would not. now who is the frickin Zealot? and this is after finding out there wasnt no WMDs. No spin Bill lost lots of points with me after that very stupid remark. its easy to send someone else kids to die for a lost cause. truely amazing and yet another reason to vote against George and the zealots. lets see he and Cheney avoided vietnam interesting isnt it.

[Existence]

I don't see why people are so wild about Obama. He's a DLC Clinton-Lieberman Democrat. His sort of politics is the reason why we're in Iraq, why the Patriot Act exists and why the Democrats lost so badly in 2002.

I hope he doesnt become the "rising star" the media is labeling him. That would be a disaster to the marginalized and working people of this country and another presidential election I'll be voting Green.

[applenut]

Originally posted by Existence
I don't see why people are so wild about Obama. He's a DLC Clinton-Lieberman Democrat. His sort of politics is the reason why we're in Iraq, why the Patriot Act exists and why the Democrats lost so badly in 2002.

I hope he doesnt become the "rising star" the media is labeling him. That would be a disaster to the marginalized and working people of this country and another presidential election I'll be voting Green.

he just annoyed me.

[ShawnJ]

Originally posted by Existence
I don't see why people are so wild about Obama. He's a DLC Clinton-Lieberman Democrat. His sort of politics is the reason why we're in Iraq, why the Patriot Act exists and why the Democrats lost so badly in 2002.

Can you be more specific?

[addabox]

FWIW, the transcript of the Kennedy speech is up. Here's the passage that
a__greer managed to hear as calling soldiers "false patriots":


We hear echoes of past battles in the quiet whisper of the sweetheart deal, in the hushed promise of a better break for the better connected. We hear them in the cries of the false patriots who bully dissenters into silence and submission. These are familiar fights. We've fought and won them before. And with John Kerry and John Edwards leading us, we will win them again and make America stronger at home and respected once more in the world.

[Meaningless]

Obama was a fantastic speaker and what a speech. I think that he equals at being as great a speaker as Clinton. This bit of his speech was truely inspiring:

"Yet even as we speek, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters, and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal Amercan and a conservative America -- there's the United States of America. There's not a black America and a white America -- there's the United States of America. The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States [...] but I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States and have gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported it. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America."

Jeepers! :D

[rageous]

Obama is widely regarded as a rising star in the party, and it was easy to see why tonight.

[Existence]

OMG. I absolutely love Teresa Heinz Kerry. I wish she was born in this country so she could run for president.

Teresa Hienz Kerry > all

[groverat]

I love Barrack Obama.

That man gave me goosebumps.

Wow. Illinois is a lucky state.

[rageous]

Originally posted by Aurora
Bill who has no children that im aware says he would sacrifice his kids in fallujah when Michael Moore asked him while Moore would not. now who is the frickin Zealot?

O'Reilly never said that. I hesitate to "defend" him, but in actuality he said he'd sacrifice himself to defend Falluja, but never answered Moore's direct question as to wether or not O'Reilly would sacrifice his child.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

the resonating theme for the democrats seems to be "the G.O.P. is trying to divide the country".
good strategy if they can get the message across.

[BRussell]

Teresa did well. I worry about what's going to happen when she's not giving a pre-written speech though. You just can't have any quirky spontaneity in American politics.

[rageous]

Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
the resonating theme for the democrats seems to be "the G.O.P. is trying to divide the country".
good strategy if they can get the message across.

It's not a bad strategy, but one could argue that claiming your opponent is trying to divide people is in itself divisive.

[rageous]

Originally posted by BRussell
Teresa did well. I worry about what's going to happen when she's not giving a pre-written speech though. You just can't have any quirky spontaneity in American politics.

Maybe not quirky spontaneity, but spontaneity can be good. Bush often looks far better speaking off the cuff than he does scripted.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

Originally posted by rageous
It's not a bad strategy, but one could argue that claiming your opponent is trying to divide people is in itself divisive.

that's just it, they aren't attacking president bush as much as they are attacking the mindset of the republican party. clinton last night was brilliant, his criticism of bush's military record included himself......brilliant.

one more thing about Obama, you understand now why no republican wants a part of him in november.

[ShawnJ]

skmdc, are you voting for Obama in November?

[ShawnJ]

Originally posted by rageous
It's not a bad strategy, but one could argue that claiming your opponent is trying to divide people is in itself divisive.

That sounds like the old "insensitivity to insensitivity" charge.

Edit: Not saying you're making the "divisive is divisive" charge-- just if someone hypothetically does-- it sounds similar. Both are true- but are not in the same spirit as the original charge. Unless the opposition really isn't trying to divide Americans...

[groverat]

Can someone link me up to the Obama audio or video?
I want to save that one.

[rageous]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
That sounds like the old "insensitivity to insensitivity" charge.

I'm not making any charge, just playing devil's advocate.

[Aquatic]

the resonating theme for the democrats seems to be "the G.O.P. is trying to divide the country".
good strategy if they can get the message across.

Definitely. Kerry would be smart to pick a diverse cabinet. It would be easy to tell the difference then between him and Bush & the Good Ol' Boys Club without even listening to a word from either. Bush = fat ol' white guys, Kerry = diverse. Too bad there isn't room for Obama.
I'll look in to Obama, Existence, but why the hell are you hatin' on him? His speech was fantastic! He is going places and it would definitely suck to be his opponent in Illinois. He'll steamroll 'em. His speech was really inspiring and inclusive. Man was that guy good. There's just something about the way he talks that's insightful and intellectual and yet fireside friendly, like he'd tell you the exact same thing in a bar.

I liked Ronald Reagan's too. :D Didn't get to see Dean or Clinton because of freaking work till 9:30 PM.:grumble:

TerEEza was interesting but is that the Botox or what that makes her talk like she has an egg in her mouth? She sounds like she's about to go to sleep, maybe that's the anesthesia kicking in! Ah well I liked her very calm and casual demeanor. Women will like her.

[groverat]

http://www.c-span.org/

Catch the speeches you missed there. So far the only worthwhile ones to watch are Clinton's and Obama's (I am capping them to save for posterity, I think it is tragic that we have so much access to history yet we do so little to capture it).

[rageous]

Originally posted by Aquatic
Definitely. Kerry would be smart to pick a diverse cabinet. It would be easy to tell the difference then between him and Bush & the Good Ol' Boys Club without even listening to a word from either. Bush = fat ol' white guys, Kerry = diverse.

Bush has done a pretty good job in appointing minorities to high level positions. There's always room for improvement, but I'm not so sure the "Fat Ol' White Guys" label is very accurate...

[groverat]

Condi and Powell are neither fat nor white, and even though I abhor the Bush administration I think calling them "white" or "uncle Toms" is the worst kind of racism. It is bullshit.

Bush made a great decision in dragging Powell into his cabinet by his ear. It's just too bad he's been nothing more than a puppet this entire 4 years.

[johnq]

Originally posted by BRussell
Teresa did well. I worry about what's going to happen when she's not giving a pre-written speech though. You just can't have any quirky spontaneity in American politics.

It'll be refreshing compared to Bush's speaking abilities...

I'm starting a "Bob Newhart"-like drinking game where you take a drink every time Bush grasps for "strong" as an adjective (often preceded by a painfully dumb sounding "uhhh"). Bonus is "strong leader", take 2 swigs.

It's endless...



Governors are strong leaders with a practical point of view, and I'm really grateful for my former fellow governors for serving their country.

He is one of the world's strongest leaders when it comes to our mutual concerns about keeping the peace and fighting terror.

He is a strong leader for Hungary. He is a strong ally for the United States. More importantly, he is a strong visionary for free and peaceful societies.

As you know, I'm going to Ireland to visit with the leadership of the EU and I want to thank you for giving me a good, strong briefing on the EU.

I appreciated your very strong statement on behalf of the Hungarian people.

You're a good, strong leader and a good friend.

And the United States will not be intimidated by these people because we believe strongly in freedom and liberty and human rights and human dignity, freedom to worship as you see fit, freedom to speak your mind.

Relations between Hungary and the United States are strong.

It's my honor to welcome my friend and a strong leader, the Prime Minister of Japan, to Sea Island, Georgia.

He's a strong leader who cares deeply about the people of his country and understands the issues that we face.

He's strong. He's resolute. He served his nation as the director for seven years. He has been a strong and able leader at the agency. He's been a -- he's been a strong leader in the war on terror.

Dr. Allawi is a strong leader.

Incredibly wise words from a strong leader.

He is a strong leader and a good friend, and we will miss his experience and sense of humor.

She is a superb legislator and a strong leader who has stood for the best of Washington state's values and who has improved the lives of its people.

On and on and on (http://www.whitehouse.gov/query.html?col=colpics&qt=%22strong+leader%22&submit.x=21&submit.y=12)



Being called a strong leader by him now is as empty a title as "humanoid" might be.

[rageous]

Originally posted by groverat
Bush made a great decision in dragging Powell into his cabinet by his ear. It's just too bad he's been nothing more than a puppet this entire 4 years.

Indeed. Things would be far different if he were listened to.

[tonton]

Originally posted by Aquatic
Definitely. Kerry would be smart to pick a diverse cabinet.
Powell for Secretary of Defense?
Now THAT would be a brave move indeed.

[tonton]

Originally posted by groverat
Condi and Powell are neither fat nor white, and even though I abhor the Bush administration I think calling them "white" or "uncle Toms" is the worst kind of racism. It is bullshit.

Bush made a great decision in dragging Powell into his cabinet by his ear. It's just too bad he's been nothing more than a puppet this entire 4 years.

Bullshit. Condi is as white as they come. And Powell has simply kept his promise to keep his mouth shut.

[bunge]

Originally posted by groverat
Condi and Powell are neither fat nor white, and even though I abhor the Bush administration I think calling them "white" or "uncle Toms" is the worst kind of racism. It is bullshit.

How about simply dunce and weasel? Sorry everyone, didn't mean to derail the thread.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by tonton
Condi is as white as they come. What does that mean?

[groverat]

He doesn't know what the hell it means, because it is completely meaningless. It is nothing more than racist baiting.

[tonton]

Originally posted by BRussell
What does that mean?

I'm talking metaphorically. She is a 100% neoconservative nutjob who will vehemently defend any and all actions taken by the Bush "old boy's club". If we look at her comments, performance and actions, without knowing her race or gender, she would perfectly fit the new America white male stereotype.

[ShawnJ]

But aren't your comments more class oriented than race oriented?

[addabox]

I've got a question-- is this actually the Democratic party? I mean, they seem to be staying on message and presenting an appealingly united front and anyone watching might be forgiven for believing they have coherent world view backed up by strategy.

And we all know that the Dems are famously fractious and undisciplined and oddly accommodating to some of their least domesticated voices.....

So who stole all the Democrats and put these orderly folk in their place?

[Existence]

I think what tonton is trying to say is that Condi Rice is a race traitor, a fairly well-defined term in academia. Here are some links:

http://www.blackcommentator.com/26/26_commentary.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415913934/002-0031264-5594436?v=glance
http://www.manningmarable.net/works/sept02b.html

Some other examples of race traitors: Colin Powell, Rod Paige and Bill Cosby.

[rageous]

Originally posted by tonton
I'm talking metaphorically. She is a 100% neoconservative nutjob who will vehemently defend any and all actions taken by the Bush "old boy's club". If we look at her comments, performance and actions, without knowing her race or gender, she would perfectly fit the new America white male stereotype.

With all due respect, only an idiot believes they can ascertain the race and gender of an individual by reading statements they made or examining actions they've taken.

This idea may be lost on you, but perhaps it is a good thing that a black female has conservative views. Just as it's good that there are men who supported women's suffrage and white's who supported the abolition of slavery. Not that I feel the current conservative agenda is as noble as the examples I provided, my point is to show that people transcending gender and race issues is usually good.

I mean seriously, your statement sounds exactly like those of the Mississippi segregationists who said "any white person who supports niggers ain't nothing but a nigger". They are equally preposterous. And I hope this post doesn't get edited, because it's a fair point.

[pfflam]

I think you should all lay off of the 'Condi is white' b*****it!
It is retrograde, dated, and Groverat is right, it is racist as well.

Get beyond that kind of lame politicking

anyway,

Did anybody see Koppel interview Michael Moore?

I think that Michael Moore is where the fractiousness is. He said that he represents the majority of the Democratic people then went on to say that he would pull out of Iraq . . . I think that it is unfortunate that Koppel seemed to spotlight him while in the middle of the convention . . . it seemed alomost as if MM WAS speeking for teh Democrats . . . which I think ended up giving a overly simplistic perspective and probably hurt the perception from the perspective of thse that the DNC are trying so hard to woo with this semi-unified and civil convention: swing voters

But, with that said MMoore said some great things
At the end of the interview the two got into a sharp tongued swap of cynical jabs where Koppel tried to parody Moore's 'good ole-American' perspective with a sarcastic tone, but Moore came right back and pushed up a notch . . . Moore was quick witted and did not stumble when Koppel tried to make him seem foolish . . . Moore had the final laugh . . . I think that it showed that he has learned alot about dealing with the cynical eye of urbane media.

[ColanderOfDeath]

Rice is down with the Shrubbery. No love for her.

Colin on the other hand, clearly has ideological difference with most of the other power players in the Bush administration. I'm not sure whether to laud him for helping them retain a semblence of respectability in the presentation of their politics or to chastise him for letting them bitchslap him around for four years in terms of policy. I suppose I'll miss the guy if we get a Shrubbery sequel since Powell's pretty much indicated that he won't be appearing on the 2005 remix album. Ah well, we're all fucked anyway.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by tonton
Bullshit. Condi is as white as they come. And Powell has simply kept his promise to keep his mouth shut.

tonton you can do better :(

moving along, Obama is amazing in skill and tact and will be President one day.

Obama is a leader who uses the strengths of unity and inspiration to lead.

Fellowship

[ShawnJ]

Wow.

John Nichols of The Nation reports that the Democratic Party platform drops support of death penalty (http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/index.mhtml?bid=1&pid=1622). That's significant.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
Wow.

John Nichols of The Nation reports that the Democratic Party platform drops support of death penalty (http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/index.mhtml?bid=1&pid=1622). That's significant.

That is great news..

The Death Penalty is wrong period.

Fellowship

[rageous]

Originally posted by Fellowship
That is great news..

The Death Penalty is wrong period.

Fellowship

I think you mean "The Death Penalty is wrong in my opinion"

I have a friend whose fiancee was butchered years ago that would vehemently disagree with you.

[pfflam]

Anybody notice that Anne Coulter got cut (basically 'fired') from reporting the Convention for USA Today?

What were they thinking anyway?! . . . this woman lamented that Timothy McVie didn't blow up the New York Times building! :no:

[rageous]

Originally posted by pfflam
Anybody notice that Anne Coulter got cut (basically 'fired') from reporting the Convention for USA Today?

Good riddance. She is a one note song. Why anyone would choose someone like that to reflect upon anything of importance is beyond me.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by rageous
I think you mean "The Death Penalty is wrong in my opinion"

I have a friend whose fiancee was butchered years ago that would vehemently disagree with you.

Pardon my mistake.

Killing another human being does not make a wrong balanced and just once again. This is my opinion.

One wrong is one wrong too many. Two wrongs is insane and mad. This is my opinion.

Fellowship

[rageous]

Originally posted by Fellowship
Pardon my mistake.

Killing another human being does not make a wrong balanced and just once again. This is my opinion.

One wrong is one wrong too many. Two wrongs is insane and mad. This is my opinion.

Fellowship

No need to get snippy. But when saying "it's wrong period." you are insinuating that any opinion to the contrary is also wrong. I think both sides have compelling arguments to make and that it's tough to label either as right or wrong.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by rageous
No need to get snippy. But when saying "it's wrong period." you are insinuating that any opinion to the contrary is also wrong. I think both sides have compelling arguments to make and that it's tough to label either as right or wrong.

That is fair.

I understand what you are saying.

I am simply speaking in terms of my opinion. That is all.

Fellows

[rageous]

Originally posted by Fellowship
That is fair.

I understand what you are saying.

I am simply speaking in terms of my opinion. That is all.

Fellows

Understood. And I respect your opinion. And on that note, I'm beat so good night to you and everyone else!

[Existence]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
Wow.

John Nichols of The Nation reports that the Democratic Party platform drops support of death penalty (http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/index.mhtml?bid=1&pid=1622). That's significant.

Excellent news. This means the DLC's grip on the party is lessening.

[Towel]

Originally posted by addabox
I've got a question-- is this actually the Democratic party? I mean, they seem to be staying on message and presenting an appealingly united front and anyone watching might be forgiven for believing they have coherent world view backed up by strategy.

And we all know that the Dems are famously fractious and undisciplined and oddly accommodating to some of their least domesticated voices.....

So who stole all the Democrats and put these orderly folk in their place? I dunno, but I'm liking the sound of these humanoid-dressed green space aliens. I think the "we are one nation, don't let them divide us" message really resonates, and I appreciate the heavy emphasis on "hope, not fear". There's still a lack of specifics (when isn't there), but I don't think they could be playing the "message" any better.

I absolutely loved the bit in Obama's speech about (paraphasing heavily) "if there's a kid in the South Side of Chicago who can't read, I care, even if it's not my kid; if there's a senior citizen who can't pay for drugs and make ends meet, I care, even if it's not my grandparent; if there's an Arab-American family who gets rounded up, I lose my own civil liberties." Such an awesome summary of the funamental liberal (and Christian) value of caring for thy neighbors, the Golden Rule for the 21st century. Together with the "we worship an awesome god in the blue states, and have gay friends in the red states" strain of national unity, I think this is the new Third Way for Democrats.

I tuned into the middle of Obama's speech, and wound up sitting through PBS's rerun of the evening so I could catch the beginning of it. The guy was mesmerizing. Great message, great delivery. You could just feel him and the crowd feeding off of each other as he hit his stride. He's definitely going places. It's almost too bad he'll likely sit out the next eight years in the Senate, unlike a certain other Illinois state senator phenom. And too bad for the nation that no network deemed any part of tonight worthy of broadcast. I wonder if it'll become the first mass bit-torrent'ed political speech?

[johnq]

The Obama bandwagon, alllll aboarrrrrrrrd!

Can we please not make the typical mistake of fawning over a black man as being "articulate" and "intelligent" as if it is some aberration rather than the norm? This is the same insult as calling Theresa Heinz Kerry "opinionated".

Tens of thousands of other black men, if put in the same situation, will give equally powerful, heartfelt, motivational speeches. It is the fact that we ignore 99% of them and only one gets to speak, that is so telling.

Yes, he's great. Awesome speech. He'll be a wonderful leader. He is not however, the second coming of Christ.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
skmdc, are you voting for Obama in November? yes i voted for him in the primary as well.

[Ronald Reagan]

Originally posted by Existence
OMG. I absolutely love Teresa Heinz Kerry. I wish she was born in this country so she could run for president.

Teresa Hienz Kerry > all

Of course you do. I think she's repulsive.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

Originally posted by Fellowship

Obama is amazing in skill and tact and will be President one day.

Obama is a leader who uses the strengths of unity and inspiration to lead.

Fellowship

he wasn't born in the u.s.a. so unless the constitution is amended, senator is as high as he can go.

[Ronald Reagan]

Back to the convention itself:

Clinton gave a very good speech. I never liked Clinton, but regardless...it was good.

Kennedy and Carter apparently didn't get the "stay positive" message.

It's been quite boring overall. Apparently Mr. Rather agrees, which is surprising.

I watched the Micheal Moore/O'Reilly interview. Anyone else? As much as I despise Moore and disagree with him, he came off as more articulate than I thought he would.

Discussion point: If Kerry/Edwards don't get a significant bounce from the convention, what does that mean? The whole thing just doesn't seem as energized as in 2000 and I'm wondering how this is all going to reflect in the polls next week.

[groverat]

Can we please not make the typical mistake of fawning over a black man as being "articulate" and "intelligent" as if it is some aberration rather than the norm?

Bullshit.

I wonder, will it be possible to like a black politician ever without some jagoff claiming it is white condescension?

You shouldn't quote things people don't say to try and make a point, it is disingenuous.

[giant]

Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
he wasn't born in the u.s.a. so unless the constitution is amended, senator is as high as he can go.
hawaii, actually

[groverat]

Discussion point: If Kerry/Edwards don't get a significant bounce from the convention, what does that mean?

Nothing at all.
Since when do conventions give these "15 point bounces" that has been the Republican talking point lately?

It is nothing more than setting the Democrats up for a fall by creating the expectation of something that never happens and, naturally, people are falling right in line.

[faust9]

Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
he wasn't born in the u.s.a. so unless the constitution is amended, senator is as high as he can go.

You don't have to be born in the bounds of the united states to be eligible for the presidency. You do have to be a natural born US citizen though which includes children born abroud of citizens.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

Originally posted by giant
hawaii, actually

my bad, i thought he was born in kenya.

[giant]

Originally posted by johnq
Can we please not make the typical mistake of fawning over a black man as being "articulate" and "intelligent" as if it is some aberration rather than the norm?
Those sound more like comparisons to the current president than to other black males. I think we have just been so accustomed to incompetent politicians running this country for the past few years it's refreshing to remember that it can be better.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Aurora
I find it interesting Bill O'reileys interview with Michael Moore at the convention. Bill who has no children that im aware says he would sacrifice his kids in fallujah when Michael Moore asked him while Moore would not. now who is the frickin Zealot? and this is after finding out there wasnt no WMDs. No spin Bill lost lots of points with me after that very stupid remark. its easy to send someone else kids to die for a lost cause. truely amazing and yet another reason to vote against George and the zealots. lets see he and Cheney avoided vietnam interesting isnt it. Moore is a propagandist, and he was using propaganda, no surprise there, aye?

As far as the "sending our children", who do you suggest the US send?

And lest we all forget amidst all the DNC hoo ha, it is an all volunteer military. Conversely, wouldn't that mean that they were sending themselves? I think that was O's point.

As far as the "misled the American People" propaganda goes, three independent entities have found that to be an untrue notion. So if you choose to believe Moore over them, that is your own stubbornness at play.

But anyway, I watched Clinton's speech, and I will give the ex-POTUS credit - he is a great speech giver. And I agree with many here that if he had used a little foresight to keep out of the scandals he would have been a great spokesman for the Democratic party.

Every time I see him, I can't help but remember "I did not have sexual relations with that woman - Monica Lewinski." What a HUGE mistake for him and his party.

His tone was good, and I am glad to see that the Bush bashing has been curtailed by the Kerry crew.

One thing that makes me wonder though, why didn't Leberman get the VP nod? Or better yet, the Dem. Nomination? He is a great guy with lots of experience, he is honest and seems to be straight as an arrow. You would see huge crossover votes for him, for sure.

I guess it is all about the superficial things...

[BRussell]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
Wow.

John Nichols of The Nation reports that the Democratic Party platform drops support of death penalty (http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/index.mhtml?bid=1&pid=1622). That's significant. That is interesting. Kerry, unlike Clinton, has been an opponent of the death penalty, although in typically Kerry fashion, he now supports it for terrorists. :rolleyes: But I think views have changed about the death penalty since the DNA releases have been happening.

But I heard that the only thing the platform will say about Iraq is "we agree to disagree." Uh, yeah?

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Ronald Reagan
Discussion point: If Kerry/Edwards don't get a significant bounce from the convention, what does that mean? The whole thing just doesn't seem as energized as in 2000 and I'm wondering how this is all going to reflect in the polls next week. I don't think anyone's getting any significant bounces this time around, because the undecideds are so much smaller than usual.

[johnq]

Originally posted by groverat
Bullshit.

I wonder, will it be possible to like a black politician ever without some jagoff claiming it is white condescension?

You shouldn't quote things people don't say to try and make a point, it is disingenuous.

Not condescension. Soothing their own guilt.

Follow along. I wasn't quoting a person. Quotes can be used in other contexts. The context in which I used them were to hilight them as examples of words I am hoping are not used to excess.

Condi Rice was already a victim of that, doubly. "Smart", "articulate" black woman? SHOCK! My God, what a stunning rarity! (That's how it comes off).

There is a kind of racism, or at least misguided insults, in which (for example) whites inflate a black person's abilities and traits to extremes (even if actually remarkable) in order to turn them into an example of the white's own "progressiveness" and "tolerance" in a self congratulatory "see how far we've come" kind of way which ends up not benefiting the person they are referring to (or their race/sex), since they are probably still quite rare in number in the field in which they are in.

Excessive praise is a form of racism/sexism/etc. It's a signal of guilt. It makes the praiser feel great and the praised feel used. As if "okay, Obama is here, our system is wonderful, it works, the struggle is over". He'd tell you no, it ain't. It's still only begun.

America needs more than convention hilights and sound clip darlings that get forgotten a week later. There's a personality hype juggernaut in this country that cares not about message or results, only frenzy.

I, and I think Obama would too, look forward to the day where Obama is no more remarkable than any white politician. Because this isn't about Obama, it's about his message. If he is remarkable, something is still wrong.

The insta-hype is only indicative of how rare blacks are even amongst Democrat politicians.

He does give good message though. And yes, I'd rather him than Kerry. :D Am I succumbing?

--

No direct quotes were used in this post. Can you dig it?

[giant]

Originally posted by johnq
Excessive praise is a form of racism/sexism/etc. It's a signal of guilt.
You know why this is all BS? Because in the primaries it was latino Chico, white millionaire hull, white Hynes, Obama, some crazy white woman who is some sort of liberal radion personality and black Joyce Washington. People still loved Obama. My neighborhood was covered with signs for him during the primaries.

People have been praising Clinton's speech for the exact same thing. Problem is, Clinton's out. But look at the praise he still gets anyway. Is it racism?

This is just a case of you seeing what you want to see, and I think it reveals far more about you than anyone else. According to you, people don't support him for his schooling in international affairs, his harvard law degree, his connection with their views or even his competence or intelligence. According to you, everyone just likes him because he's black.

Let's just ignore that he's far more qualified for any position in government (or anywhere, for that matter) than the current president.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by Towel
I think the "we are one nation, don't let them divide us" message really resonates, and I appreciate the heavy emphasis on "hope, not fear". There's still a lack of specifics (when isn't there), but I don't think they could be playing the "message" any better.

I absolutely loved the bit in Obama's speech about (paraphasing heavily) "if there's a kid in the South Side of Chicago who can't read, I care, even if it's not my kid; if there's a senior citizen who can't pay for drugs and make ends meet, I care, even if it's not my grandparent; if there's an Arab-American family who gets rounded up, I lose my own civil liberties." Such an awesome summary of the funamental liberal (and Christian) value of caring for thy neighbors, the Golden Rule for the 21st century. Together with the "we worship an awesome god in the blue states, and have gay friends in the red states" strain of national unity, I think this is the new Third Way for Democrats.

I tuned into the middle of Obama's speech, and wound up sitting through PBS's rerun of the evening so I could catch the beginning of it. The guy was mesmerizing. Great message, great delivery. You could just feel him and the crowd feeding off of each other as he hit his stride. He's definitely going places.

If ever there were a "Leader" I would enjoy voting for it is Obama. For all the reasons you list above in your well said statements.

Obama represents what it is I stand for... Some of you have seen me change my politics over time here at AI / AO over the last few years and seen my frustration at not wanting to even vote...

Obama has inspired me with his message. His message is one which I would gladly embrace and campaign for aggressively.

Fellowship

[johnq]

No, you're seeing what you want to see in my statements. I already said that i was talking about hype over and above existing remarkable skills.

He's liked because he's eminently likable, from his own actions and ideas.

However the hype machine is tripping over itself (particularly CNN) to create a god.

That he can rise above other politicians from his own hard work and talent is obvious.

"Hype" does not inherently mean the person or thing being hyped is in anyway inadequate or not excellent. You seem to want it to mean that. Anything to paint me as racist.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by giant
You know why this is all BS? Because in the primaries it was latino Chico, white millionaire hull, white Hynes, Obama, some crazy white woman who is some sort of liberal radion personality and black Joyce Washington. People still loved Obama. My neighborhood was covered with signs for him during the primaries.

People have been praising Clinton's speech for the exact same thing. Problem is, Clinton's out. But look at the praise he still gets anyway. Is it racism?

This is just a case of you seeing what you want to see, and I think it reveals far more about you than anyone else. According to you, people don't support him for his schooling in international affairs, his harvard law degree, his connection with their views or even his competence or intelligence. According to you, everyone just likes him because he's black.

Let's just ignore that he's far more qualified for any position in government (or anywhere, for that matter) than the current president. Well said. I would also say, though, that his race does matter. I think people can recognize that blacks have been under-represented in the senate, and realize the importance of having such an appealing black senator, without any condescension like johnq puts it.

I just can't quite get over the name Obama. It's just too close. His name might as well be Adolf Bitler.

[Existence]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
Can you be more specific?

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=251658&kaid=104&subid=210

He's been prominently featured on the DLC website.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by BRussell
Well said. I would also say, though, that his race does matter. I think people can recognize that blacks have been under-represented in the senate, and realize the importance of having such an appealing black senator, without any condescension like johnq puts it.

I just can't quite get over the name Obama. It's just too close. His name might as well be Adolf Bitler. You say that blacks are under-represented in the senate. How many black senators are there?

[johnq]

Clinton's being praised solely because we need to make the country reminisce about the glory days of Bubbanomics when the economy was truly roaring. We need to equate Clinton = Democrat = Good Economy to the masses. Clinton himself is irrelevant if not a liability (but thankfully memories are short).

Obama on the other hand is new blood, speaking exactly the right message, with exactly the energy and temperament required.

[NaplesX]

THK said that under her husband, global warming will be reversed.

I am going to register as a dem and vote for him now.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by NaplesX
You say that blacks are under-represented in the senate. How many black senators are there? I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos.

[giant]

error

[giant]

error

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos. Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos. Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.

[giant]

error

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos. Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.

[giant]

error

[giant]

error

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos. Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos. Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.

[giant]

man, the db really freaked out that time.

[giant]

Originally posted by johnq
Clinton's being praised solely because we need to make the country reminisce about the glory days of Bubbanomics when the economy was truly roaring.
Try reading the first page of this thread.

[Existence]

Originally posted by NaplesX
THK said that under her husband, global warming will be reversed.

I am going to register as a dem and vote for him now.

Excellent.

In case you were being sarcastic, consider that people of your party don't believe global warming exists (ie. nothing). Thus THK's statement is true (the reverse of nothing is still nothing).

[groverat]

jq:

Condi Rice was already a victim of that, doubly. "Smart", "articulate" black woman? SHOCK! My God, what a stunning rarity! (That's how it comes off).

Of those who expressed appreciation for Barak here before your race-baiting, who mentioned anything about his being black?

Excessive praise is a form of racism/sexism/etc. It's a signal of guilt. It makes the praiser feel great and the praised feel used.

What the fuck are you talking about? What is "excessive" about any of this? Did you listen to his speech? It was great.

Can a black man not have a great speech acknowledged without some bullshit Psyche 101 analysis?

I, and I think Obama would too, look forward to the day where Obama is no more remarkable than any white politician.

Who made this about white/black? Not those praising Obama in this space.

I understand what you are saying in general, but there is no link here. None at all. And quite honestly your half-assed attempt to pscyhoanalyze my motives is insulting to my intelligence.

Clinton's being praised solely because we need to make the country reminisce about the glory days of Bubbanomics when the economy was truly roaring.

Yet more bullshit, Clinton gave a great speech. He bored me to death watching him talk on CSPAN-2 about his book, yet the DNC speech was great.

[jimmac]

Originally posted by Ronald Reagan
Back to the convention itself:

Clinton gave a very good speech. I never liked Clinton, but regardless...it was good.

Kennedy and Carter apparently didn't get the "stay positive" message.

It's been quite boring overall. Apparently Mr. Rather agrees, which is surprising.

I watched the Micheal Moore/O'Reilly interview. Anyone else? As much as I despise Moore and disagree with him, he came off as more articulate than I thought he would.

Discussion point: If Kerry/Edwards don't get a significant bounce from the convention, what does that mean? The whole thing just doesn't seem as energized as in 2000 and I'm wondering how this is all going to reflect in the polls next week.


Oh, I wouldn't worry about the polls Ronald SDW Reagan.;)


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/28/dems.main/index.html

It sounds pretty enegized to me and look at this part from Reagan's son :

-----------------------------------------------------------
" Late president's son on stem cell research

Ron Reagan: "Please cast a vote for embryonic stem cell research."
The hope of new cures for diseases is also at stake in the election, according to Ron Reagan, whose father, former President Reagan, died last month after a decade-long battle with Alzheimer's disease. (Reagan calls for increased stem cell research)

The younger Reagan said his appearance wasn't for partisan reasons but to call for expanding embryonic stem cell research.

"We can choose between the future and the past, between reason and ignorance, between true compassion and mere ideology," Reagan said.

"Whatever else you do come November 2, I urge you, please cast your vote for embryonic stem cell research."

-----------------------------------------------------------




;)

[johnq]

Originally posted by groverat
If those who expressed appreciation for Barak here before your race-baiting, who mentioned anything about his being black?


Yet again, I was talking outside the realm of what people might have said in this thread. I was commenting on the snowballing hype as seen on TV.

Originally posted by groverat
What the fuck are you talking about? What is "excessive" about any of this? Did you listen to his speech? It was great.


Where did I say his speech wasn't great? I'm talking about the hype being crafted around the man.

Originally posted by groverat
Can a black man not have a great speech acknowledged without some bullshit Psyche 101 analysis?


I loved the speech and I said as much. His speech was great with or without me. Yet I will gladly comment on the hype machine as I see fit. It has nothing to do with the person being hyped. Once again, hype doesn't mean you start from someone with zero abilities. You can hype an already incredible person.

Originally posted by groverat
Who made this about white/black? Not those praising Obama in this space.


I am praising Obama in this space. And it is about race. Race is important. Race is not a dirty, bad thing. Race is beautiful. Sad that you think race = hatred. My kids will be bi-racial and I'll live as a minority in Asia. Hardly a bigot. Bigotry is when a white man from Boston can't DARE speak honestly about race among so called liberals, lower case L.

Particularly ironic is that I am taking the side of blacks and saying too much praise is a bad thing for them yet I'm the racist for saying it. Ok...:rolleyes:

If you don't agree, fantastic. Enjoy the bubble you live in, I'll enjoy mine.

Originally posted by groverat
I understand what you are saying in general, but there is no link here. None at all. And quite honestly your half-assed attempt to pscyhoanalyze my motives is insulting to my intelligence.


Let's not talk about insults. Coming from someone is spinning me to be a racist, saying "bullshit", "fuck" etc. Let's not sit under a cloak of righteousness that allows you to speak that way.

I'm done with you. You always have to be "right" to the point of self-righteousness and hammer others into agreement. I'm meanly stating my opinion. Enjoy.

[groverat]

Originally posted by johnq
Yet again, I was talking outside the realm of what people might have said in this thread.

Then why say "we" if you don't mean "we"?

[Aurora]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Moore is a propagandist, and he was using propaganda, no surprise there, aye?

As far as the "sending our children", who do you suggest the US send?

And lest we all forget amidst all the DNC hoo ha, it is an all volunteer military. Conversely, wouldn't that mean that they were sending themselves? I think that was O's point.

As far as the "misled the American People" propaganda goes, three independent entities have found that to be an untrue notion. So if you choose to believe Moore over them, that is your own stubbornness at play.

But anyway, I watched Clinton's speech, and I will give the ex-POTUS credit - he is a great speech giver. And I agree with many here that if he had used a little foresight to keep out of the scandals he would have been a great spokesman for the Democratic party.

Every time I see him, I can't help but remember "I did not have sexual relations with that woman - Monica Lewinski." What a HUGE mistake for him and his party.

His tone was good, and I am glad to see that the Bush bashing has been curtailed by the Kerry crew.

One thing that makes me wonder though, why didn't Leberman get the VP nod? Or better yet, the Dem. Nomination? He is a great guy with lots of experience, he is honest and seems to be straight as an arrow. You would see huge crossover votes for him, for sure.

I guess it is all about the superficial things... My point is if we are going to send our folks to die it had better be for a darn good reason such as our nations freedom is at stake, Saddam didnt do 911 a bunch of Suadi's did, Saddam didnt have WMDs it was B.S made up from our lack of intelligence agencies. and then O"reily who i usually like makes a stupid stupid remark as if he would send his child and yours and mine to die for what? if the U.S is going to war it should have one heck of a reason not spin and misdirection that we got from Bush repeating WMDs for a year and then going into Iraq before the inspectors were done. this made us (USA) and Bush look like idiots. instead of going after Bin Laden he went for Saddam. was removing Saddam worth 1 American life when they could have taken him out with a cruise missle? the answer is no it wasnt just as it wasnt worth the 200 billion and counting of our tax dollars. Moore had Bill looking like a fool.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

johnq, you got me spinning.

hype machine? snowballing hype? hype an incredible person? cloak of righteousness?

johnq = nonsensical hyperbolic nut-job = i can't tell what his fucking point is.

[pfflam]

[to johnq]

What you were saying seemed pointed at the members of this forum . . . and personally, I didn't care wether he is black or not . . to me it is more impressive that he is still merely a state Senator and yet was able to command so much presence . . . his speech was a little rushed in places but had the power of a speech given by a veteran and sophisticated politician . . . .

And isn't he also white? . . . . But really, who cares about this stupid race shit . . . it matters in political/economic terms because it matters for people and consequently there are real economic and social implications and a deep history . . . . but aren't we yet where it really shouldn't even be a consideration when appreciating someone's gift of gab?! I had assumed so . . . it didn't make a dent much more that a passing acknowledgement . . . 'oh . . . and his mother (or was it father?) was from Kenya' . . .

[giant]

Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
johnq = nonsensical hyperbolic nut-job = i can't tell what his fucking point is.
What I gathered from the few statements that weren't just a victim act is that the reason Illinoians like him so much is because he's black and white people feel quilty.

Oh, and that none of us really liked clinton's speech. We're all just putting on an act to play a psychological trick on him.

[Fran441]

Once again, I don't know why the filters aren't picking some of these up but I urge people to not try and circumvent the profanity filters. Further instances by the same people will result in account warnings.

Also, please try and refrain from personal attacks in this thread. Thanks.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

Originally posted by giant

Oh, and that none of us really liked clinton's speech. We're all just putting on an act to play a psychological trick on him.

i only liked his speech out of the guilt i have from all the bubba jokes i've told.

[groverat]

I don't know if typing the word qualifies as circumventing the filter, but I can promise you that I will never stop cussing. :-)

[johnq]

Originally posted by groverat
Then why say "we" if you don't mean "we"?

"We" = Democrats.

Last time I checked, I was a Democrat. I can say "we".

[johnq]

Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
johnq, you got me spinning.

hype machine? snowballing hype? hype an incredible person? cloak of righteousness?

johnq = nonsensical hyperbolic nut-job = i can't tell what his fucking point is.

I'm sorry you can't take the time to read if from start to finish without a preconceived notion of what I am saying.

How many times do I need to say that I am taking not about him but those like CNN that are trying to idolize him. I was saying "here we go" into the build 'em up stage and how soon for either the "forget about him" stage or the "tear him down" stage. I'm saying that a young black man making a speech at the DNC cannot be just that, it needs to be more than that it needs to be raised to a level of frenzied star-making. It is the specialness that is indicative of it still being all too-infrequent a circumstance, get it?

I want MORE Obamas. MORE great speeches by minorities at powerful poistions in government. I want it to NOT be the thunderhead it is made out to be.

Yet more insults, nice. At least I can tell who I'm dealing with.

This is the free speech is precious liberty crowd. Yeah right. As long as you tow the party line 100%. :rolleyes: Dissent (or even mild criticism or doubts) get you run out of town and sworn at.

Nice.

[johnq]

Originally posted by pfflam
[to johnq]

What you were saying seemed pointed at the members of this forum . . . and personally, I didn't care wether he is black or not . . to me it is more impressive that he is still merely a state Senator and yet was able to command so much presence . . . his speech was a little rushed in places but had the power of a speech given by a veteran and sophisticated politician . . .

It was a wonderful speech. His race is only important in that it enriches both his history and his ability to have common ties to both whites and blacks and Christians (he is), agnostics (his father was) and Muslims (paternal grandfather was). His is a perfectly typical, ideal American story.

Originally posted by pfflam
[to johnq]
And isn't he also white? . . . . But really, who cares about this stupid race shit . . . it matters in political/economic terms because it matters for people and consequently there are real economic and social implications and a deep history . . . . but aren't we yet where it really shouldn't even be a consideration when appreciating someone's gift of gab?! I had assumed so . . . it didn't make a dent much more that a passing acknowledgement . . . 'oh . . . and his mother (or was it father?) was from Kenya' . . .

Father.

This "stupid race shit" happens to be each our own heritage. I pity you that think that race = hate or nationalism. Sure as hell doesn't to me. I want to hear the stories of Vietnamese coming here from oppression and being successful here. I want to hear about Brazilians and Czechs and Kenyans and their ordeals and successes. Hardly "stupid race shit" to them.

"but aren't we yet where it really shouldn't even be a consideration when appreciating someone's gift of gab?" I already said I want it to be. This is precisely why I hate the media's inability to focus on more than a couple of black politicians/leaders at once. It's like there needs to be a black female and a black male and any more is kept out of the nightly sound bite parade.

That's the other side of the coin: there's room for a couple of darlings and "the rest" never get exposure.

If there is disproportionate injustice, crime, disease, poverty etc. then we need a disproportionate number of leaders for any given community to be heard.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

i didn't realize that asking someone to make sense would be considered oppressive.
however i now think i know where you're coming from. you think obama gave a great speech.
some networks apparently got overexcited because a new politician, from left field, gave a speech that didn't didn't bore us to f*cking (expletive manually deleted by me...filters??) tears.
you seem to be complaining that there aren't more like him, and some how CNN is to blame.
aahhh it all makes sense to me now.
p.s. i think you're the only one who mentions race.

[giant]

It's not the dissent, it's this:
Not condescension. Soothing their own guilt ... Condi Rice was already a victim of that, doubly. "Smart", "articulate" black woman? SHOCK! My God, what a stunning rarity! (That's how it comes off).

There is a kind of racism, or at least misguided insults, in which (for example) whites inflate a black person's abilities and traits to extremes (even if actually remarkable) in order to turn them into an example of the white's own "progressiveness" and "tolerance" in a self congratulatory "see how far we've come" kind of way which ends up not benefiting the person they are referring to (or their race/sex), since they are probably still quite rare in number in the field in which they are in.

Excessive praise is a form of racism/sexism/etc. It's a signal of guilt. It makes the praiser feel great and the praised feel used. As if "okay, Obama is here, our system is wonderful, it works, the struggle is over". He'd tell you no, it ain't. It's still only begun.
That's great that you are creative and like to make up theories about the world around you. Unfortunately, criticizing your thoughts by projecting them onto others is not the best way to clear out your biases. You would do good to recognize when your interpretations are flawed. On top of that you've basically told everyone that has respect for him that they are lying to themselves.

This isn't to say that race isn't an issue, it's that the major ways in which it matters don't include the one you're focused on.

[giant]

Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
i didn't realize that asking someone to make sense would be considered oppressive.
however i now think i know where you're coming from. you think obama gave a great speech.
some networks apparently got overexcited because a new politician, from left field, gave a speech that didn't didn't bore us to f*cking (expletive manually deleted by me...filters??) tears.
you seem to be complaining that there aren't more like him, and some how CNN is to blame.
aahhh it all makes sense to me now.

Exactly. He's young, has a ton of good qualities and a lot of potential.

anyway, if clinton's skin was any darker you can be sure johnq would be crying racism.

[johnq]

Originally posted by giant
What I gathered from the few statements that weren't just a victim act is that the reason Illinoians like him so much is because he's black and white people feel quilty.

You gathered wrong. Illinoians like him because he is likeable and gives every indication of being an excellent leader for all of Illinois.

But this doesn't mean the media and some others can't spin him into a god, beyond even what he would probably prefer. Hey, if they do so in a way that isn't also a backhanded slap to the rest of African Americans, fine.

Condi Rice isn't a smart black woman she's a smart person, who is black and female. Saying "smart black woman" is as offensive as calling Theresa Heinz Kerry "opinionated". I'm not getting into PC word games and parsing every detail but there are times when there is a flip side to seemingly innocuous praise. That's all I'm saying. I simply wanted/hoped we were not in for a tide of "Obama is such an exceptional articulate, intelligent young black man" types of praise that only serve to insult. GET IT?

What's telling about you folks is that if Obama or Heinz Kerry said the above, you'd cheer it. Apparently, a white man simply cannot speak of race or gender issues without being presumed a bigot, not to you.

Originally posted by giant
Oh, and that none of us really liked clinton's speech. We're all just putting on an act to play a psychological trick on him.

I was saying whether his speech was good or not is irrelevant, because the goal is to maximize the memories for the "good old Clinton economic boom days" at all costs. We need to equate "Kerry's economy" = "Clinton's Economy". I sure as hell want to. I want Bush o.u.t out.

If his speech tanked it'd still be the same goal. Clinton has other victories but mostly it's the economy, er, stupid.

[johnq]

Originally posted by giant
Exactly. He's young, has a ton of good qualities and a lot of potential.

anyway, if clinton's skin was any darker you can be sure johnq would be crying racism.

Why the constant attacks?

No, in fact the reaction to Clinton was entirely reasonable, regardless of race. Great speech, great reaction. No legend-building, star-making idolatry or fawning, just praise for a good job. Granted his time has come and gone, so it's a moot comparison.

I'm glad for Kerry's sake that he didn't need to follow right behind Obama. I certainly would prefer Obama to Kerry. I wonder what the write-in rate will be for Obama. :D

[johnq]

Originally posted by giant
That's great that you are creative and like to make up theories about the world around you. Unfortunately, criticizing your thoughts by projecting them onto others is not the best way to clear out your biases. You would do good to recognize when your interpretations are flawed.

Um, the whole Condi Rice thing was a while back but I assure you there was plenty of talk about how there was so much dubiously phrased praise for her as if being black AND smart AND female was a stunningly rare alignment of qualities. I said for shame then, and if it rears it's head with Obama, I'll say for shame again.

No theories. No fantasy-land. Just observation of society. I am free to do that right? I'm in the U.S.A. (I think).

Originally posted by giant
On top of that you've basically told everyone that has respect for him that they are lying to themselves.

Mmm...that's good spin. No, in fact I'm saying that there is normal respect for a great job and personality and energy, but then there is the over-the-top myth-building that the media and some others love to do, which, if left unchecked, distorts reality in a way that only hurts all involved.

Eh, this is politics and media...what am I expecting.

I just think of Obama and think of a guy that gave a great speech and will make a great leader. Yet he is being spun beyond all sense of proportion.

Actually what is wonderful is reading his remarkable modesty against the tide of fawning praise.

On being compared to Cuomo: "I'm just grateful I had the opportunity to address the convention". Delightful!

He's "overwhelmed with the adulation" and "if I had known it was such a big deal, I might have gotten nervous." At least his head is on straight.

[johnq]

Obama finding himself flush with media attention (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0407280314jul28,1,2440891.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed)

...snip...

Maintaining his composure, Obama answered questions for about five minutes before announcing that he had to use the restroom. He confided to an aide that he wanted to use the portable restrooms outside because, "You know, when I go into the regular restroom, all these people want to shake my hand, and that's not the place I want to be shaking hands."

Yet when Obama neared the portable toilets with the media horde still at his heels, he turned plaintively to his followers: "Can y'all just give me one moment to use the Port-O-Let?"

But the group kept moving apace, until Green, the press secretary, threw out his arms, at last stopping the entourage.

"Guys, guys, guys," Green shouted. "Can you let him use the porta-potty? Please! Thank you!"

As Obama exited, chief media aide Robert Gibbs appeared with Obama's coffee and whisked his boss away to practice his speech in private.

Obama would spend the next several hours until his prime-time address decompressing with friends and family.

"This is all just a little over the top," he said, flashing the smile that is becoming familiar to more and more Americans. "Maybe more than a little."


I love it.

[giant]

Originally posted by johnq
You gathered wrong. Illinoians like him because he is likeable and gives every indication of being an excellent leader for all of Illinois.

But this doesn't mean the media and some others can't spin him into a god, beyond even what he would probably prefer.
See, this is the whole thing you don't get. I am an illinoian. In the past year in my city I have seen 2 kerry bumper stickers, one or two signs for kerry in house windows and one "regime change begins at home" in a window down the street from me.

In contrast, especially during the primaries, there have been obama signs in what seems like every other front yard. Literally every 3rd or 4th yard at the least. It's truely unbelievable. People are all about him and have been for months. And this is all for a guy with far, far less money than Hull and running a far more low-key campaign than Chico and his billboards and likely paid-for fans.

You see, this whole love for Obama thing is something I've been living in the middle of for months. My city is certainly more educated and political than many, but the support I've seen for Obama is like nothing I can remember.

What you see as the media overhyping Obama is, to me, a predictable extension of what I've seen around me: a lot of people really passionate about his campaign, likely overly passionate because so many people have felt disenfranchised during the Bush administration.

In short, if you think the media is all about him, wait until you see his supporters, and that basically demolishes your media-focused theory.
I was saying whether his speech was good or not is irrelevant, because the goal is to maximize the memories for the "good old Clinton economic boom days" at all costs.
No, what you said was "Clinton's being praised solely because we need to make the country reminisce about the glory days of Bubbanomics when the economy was truly roaring." You are wrong. Clinton is being praised because people are remembering that a president can be intelligent, articulate and inspire hope, qualities absent in the current presidency. This isn't to say there aren't people at the DNC with the strategy you cite in mind, but it's not the reason everyone is praising his speech.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by giant
See, this is the whole thing you don't get. I am an illinoian. In the past year in my city I have seen 2 kerry bumper stickers, one or two signs for kerry in house windows and one "regime change begins at home" in a window down the street from me.

In contrast, especially during the primaries, there have been obama signs in what seems like every other front yard. Literally every 3rd or 4th yard at the least. It's truely unbelievable. People are all about him and have been for months. And this is all for a guy with far, far less money than Hull and running a far more low-key campaign than Chico and his billboards and likely paid-for fans.

You see, this whole love for Obama thing is something I've been living in the middle of for months. My city is certainly more educated and political than many, but the support I've seen for Obama is like nothing I can remember.

What you see as the media overhyping Obama is, to me, a predictable extension of what I've seen around me: a lot of people really passionate about his campaign, likely overly passionate because so many people have felt disenfranchised during the Bush administration.

In short, if you think the media is all about him, wait until you see his supporters, and that basically demolishes your media-focused theory.

Its because he is black!!! :wow: :p ;)

[Common Man]

Is anyone outside of the fringe left paying any attention to this convention?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040728/pl_nm/campaign_networks_dc

My election prediction:

Bush 55%
Kerry 45%

[johnq]

Why the mockery?

I never said that. I never said his supporters only love him because he's black.

Quit fucking distorting my words. Ban me, I don't care. But I won't stand for your smug clique's tactics.

[Anders]

"Common" "man": I thought you chickened out some time ago (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=644173#post644173) and we would not see before the election?

Are you a flip-flopper?

[giant]

Oh, johnq, you are such a victim.

[Northgate]

Originally posted by Common Man
Is anyone outside of the fringe left paying any attention to this convention?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040728/pl_nm/campaign_networks_dc

My election prediction:

Bush 55%
Kerry 45%

:lol: Oh, wait...can't breath... :lol: that was a good one...10 points! :lol: can't...take...much....more... :lol: :lol: :lol: 10 points! :lol: :lol: :lol:

;)

[pfflam]

Originally posted by johnq
Why the mockery?

I never said that. I never said his supporters only love him because he's black.

Quit fucking distorting my words. Ban me, I don't care. But I won't stand for your smug clique's tactics. I was joking . . . take it easy!!!

[ShawnJ]

Granholm's speech annoyed me.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
Granholm's speech annoyed me.

but she's a woman!
years of oppression of women mandate you like her speech.
it's the only way to assuage your guilt.:lol: :lol:

it's a joke! ha!:lol:

[ShawnJ]

heh. poor johnq. ;)

Anyway, the Edwards family speeches were mostly platitudinous nonsense. Now it's John's turn!

[groverat]

What the hell was with Edwards' Ahhhnuld-esque "we will destroy you"?

How the hell am I expected to vote for the Democrats? Why must they suck!?

[ShawnJ]

Originally posted by groverat
What the hell was with Edwards' Ahhhnuld-esque "we will destroy you"?

How the hell am I expected to vote for the Democrats? Why must they suck!?

:err:

That part of the speech rung a bit hollow to me. I don't like tough-guy posturing-- period.

[pfflam]

His speech sucked

[tonton]

A former Kerry rival for the Democratic presidential nomination, Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, said that though no weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, they have been found in U.S. cities.

"Poverty is a weapon of mass destruction," Kucinich said. "Joblessness is a weapon of mass destruction. Homeless is a weapon of mass destruction. Racism is a weapon of mass destruction. Fear is a weapon of mass destruction.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I haven't laughed that loud in a long time. Thank you, Mr. Maxi Jazz and Mr. Kucinich.

When I get home to my Mac (and iTunes) I'll post what this is all about.

[Towel]

I was disappointed with Edward's speech. I had been looking forward to it, since I hadn't yet heard him give a full speech, and I had been impressed with him at the debates. One of the commentors said it wasn't his A-game, and I guess I agree. He seemed a little too nervous, rushed, and a little unfocused. And I hate to say this, but if you went into it seeing Edwards as a slick-talking trial-lawyer-cum-politician, he didn't change your mind. But then I figured, based on his reputation, that he had to top Obama, so maybe my expectations were too high. After all, how much can you expect from a white boy? ;)

So far I've found Heinz-Kerry's and Obama's speeches to be the most compelling, mostly because they came across as the most genuine (didn't see Bill's). And Al's always fun to watch. The other Al.

[Aurora]

Edwards speech was good not great but i had heard it before. I think him getting over a sore throat or cold took a little out of him. I will admit Obama's speech was terrific. but he is new so actions will speek louder then words. On another point the democratic party has to get away from the far left. This was Clintons way to appeal to the masses. extremism simply is stupid and it sucks. look at Bush and his leaning far right. its going to loose the election for the republican party in my view. America is in the middle and the middle working class like myself want representation not far left and far right crap we get all the time.

[Common Man]

Sorry Dems, but Mop-Top Edwards showed what your party is made of. No Content at all! Typical worn out "take from the rich and give to the masses" liberal trash. Get elected by promising to give the country away. He talks about fighting "big HMOs and big companies", but he is nothing but "big litigation". Mop-Top and his ilk have hurt our medical profession with silly lawsuits and they have pushed malpractice rates up and thus medical costs up! How can anyone buy into this nonsense? Please! Get a grip on what the Dems really are.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

Originally posted by Common Man
Mop-Top and his ilk have hurt our medical profession with silly lawsuits and they have pushed malpractice rates up and thus medical costs up!

your medical profession? whattaya 16 years old? is that you dooogie?

[Existence]

Al Sharpton's speech was great.

If the DNC/DLC doesn't give him any respect, why should he give them some? It was great he didn't give the approved DNC speech. They alloted him 6 minutes; he gave a 20 minute speech. He actually talked about gay marriage and bashed Bush. I wish Dean had done something like that.

[Common Man]

Al Sharpton stuck his neck out and said what he believes and I think he is sincere. I disagree with most of what he says, but at least he speaks from his heart and his soul rather than from his spin doctor. The Dems candidates, on the other hand, have no substance. They are plastic "tell them what they want to hear'" people. They have no values and their souls are hollow.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

i was going to bring al's speech up, (but i thought my praise may spring from my white middle-class guilt, so i kept it to myself) i was proud to vote for him in the primaries, sometimes during the debates i thought he and kucinich were the only democrats up there.

[tonton]

Originally posted by tonton
"Poverty is a weapon of mass destruction," Kucinich said. "Joblessness is a weapon of mass destruction. Homeless is a weapon of mass destruction. Racism is a weapon of mass destruction. Fear is a weapon of mass destruction"

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I haven't laughed that loud in a long time. Thank you, Mr. Maxi Jazz and Mr. Kucinich.

When I get home to my Mac (and iTunes) I'll post what this is all about.

This (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/com.apple.jingle.app.store.DirectAction/viewVideo?b=a&videoId=16034740) is what I was on about.

Lyrics:
Whether long range weapon or suicide bomber
Wicked mind is a weapon of mass destruction
Whether you're a stowaway son or BBC 1
Misinformation is a weapon of mass destruc
You could a Caucasian or a poor Asian
Racism is a weapon of mass destruction
Whether inflation or globalisation
Fear is a weapon of mass destruction

Whether Halliburton, Enron or anyone
Greed is a weapon of mass destruction

We need to find courage, overcome
Inaction is a weapon of mass destruction
Inaction is a weapon of mass destruction
Inaction is a weapon of mass destruction

Do you think Kucinich will be sued? ;)

[BRussell]

After watching for the last couple of days, I'm still trying to figure out if there are two Americas or one.

[Aurora]

Originally posted by BRussell
After watching for the last couple of days, I'm still trying to figure out if there are two Americas or one. make no mistake there is 2 America's. We saw it in the OJ trial,we saw it with Enron,we saw it with Cheneys haliburton,we saw it with George"'s missing time and lost records from 72.we saw it this week with avg CEO pay that doubled in a year,there is 2 America's. one America for the rich & famous privilege class and the other America for the working joe who gets screwed by the CEO's and the Bush Administration. Both of whom are very happy moving our manufactoring base overseas, John Edwards is right but hope is on the way.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

Originally posted by BRussell
After watching for the last couple of days, I'm still trying to figure out if there are two Americas or one.

there's always been two (or three) americas, they just used to get along much better.

[faust9]

Watch'n the Kerry acceptance speech right now. Its pretty good. Thus far he has criticized Bush. He's made Cheney, Ashcroft and Rumsfeld liabilities. He's pointed out (true or false is debatable) that sending jobs over seas is wrong. He's reclaimed (in his own mind) the US flag. He's playing on the tax-cut myth (true or false is debatable). He's running on a unity platform. He's pointing out the Canton Ohio incident (too funny)... He's taking up the health insurance flag. He's attacking CEO's, child health problems, poverty, middle class problems in general. The entire speech is an indictment of the Bush admin thus far.

All and all thus far I feel its a good speech. He's addressing the undecided centrists, the middle class. He's using all the correct key words/phrases.

[edit] Too funny: He just painted himself and the Dems as the party of fiscal responsibility. This has been the domain of the repubs (true or false) for some time now. And there was the education/prision angle all in one sound bite.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by faust9
Watch'n the Kerry acceptance speech right now. Its pretty good. Thus far he has criticized Bush. He's made Cheney, Ashcroft and Rumsfeld liabilities. He's pointed out (true or false is debatable) that sending jobs over seas is wrong. He's reclaimed (in his own mind) the US flag. He's playing on the tax-cut myth (true or false is debatable). He's running on a unity platform. He's pointing out the Canton Ohio incident (too funny)... He's taking up the health insurance flag. He's attacking CEO's, child health problems, poverty, middle class problems in general. The entire speech is an indictment of the Bush admin thus far.

All and all thus far I feel its a good speech. He's addressing the undecided centrists, the middle class. He's using all the correct key words/phrases. Nothing new....

and it sure is long, the audience seems to be losing strength...

[NaplesX]

I wonder if Hillary wil be his go to girl for the health care thing he promises.

[NaplesX]

What if botox has hidden side effects....

[a_greer]

I WANT JOHN KERRYS COMPUTER

"the entire contence of a library on a chip the size of your finger nail!"

WOW THAT IS ONE HELL OF A RAMDRIVE...I doubt that even nasa has that yet...

[ShawnJ]

:wow:

Wow.

Kerry closed that speech extremely well.

[NaplesX]

I saw a reporter that was there after session yesterday, and the signs were knee high on the floor.

I feel for the shleps that have to clean up tonight.

[Timo]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
:wow:

Wow.

Kerry closed that speech extremely well.

I agree. Very strong.

[a_greer]

Originally posted by NaplesX
I saw a reporter that was there after session yesterday, and the signs were knee high on the floor.

I feel for the shleps that have to clean up tonight. ...and this is the party that tells me that I should give a damn about trees?

[Aquatic]

NaplesX that was really enlightening. What are your majoring in being a jackass?

That was good. Good points, about wearing religion on your sleeve, about using new forms of energy in the US to wean us off the "Saudi Royal Family"! And to give back Americans jobs. And the biggest theme: service. It reminds me of "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country!"

John Kerry, reporting for duty! Help is on the way! And the Black Eyed Peas rocked last night! Speeches like these from Edwards, Obama, etc make me actually like and be proud of being American. I liked Edwards "Aren't you sick of those attack ads?" And then he proceeded to speak 30 minutes optimistically about America. This was good.

Probably too good, no wonder the networks didn't carry it. And damn on CNN it was ridiculous they had Bob Dole as a commentator. They might as well have had Rush Limbaugh on. Yesterday I saw Jerry Springer on doing some reporting somewhere. Yeesh. I watched it on C-SPAN the only network I can trust anymore. And plus instead of watching Bob "Depends" Dole I got to see the Black eyed Peas and other cool stuff. That girl in BEP is hot!

[faust9]

Transcript: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/election/article/0,1299,DRMN_36_3074928,00.html

I liked this little jab. It makes Bush's attack campaign seem less substantial.
I want to address these next words directly to President George W. Bush: In the weeks ahead, let's be optimists, not just opponents. Let's build unity in the American family, not angry division. Let's honor this nation's diversity; let's respect one another; and let's never misuse for political purposes the most precious document in American history, the Constitution of the United States.

[a_greer]

tword the beginning, he remarked that we need to finish womens liberation, my question is whats left to do?

[NaplesX]

it was a decent speech. It had little substance though.

If you were looking for him to say certain phrases, then I guess it was a hit.

He made a lot of promises and relied heavily on his four months in Vietnam.

He also seemed to contradict what Edwards said as far as foreign policy.

[NaplesX]

Once again, I think the tone was much better and he seems to be backing off of the far left bush bashing.

I have a good bit more respect for him based on that.

There was a few things that were the same old tactics, but overall, much more palatable.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by a_greer
tword the beginning, he remarked that we need to finish womens liberation, my question is whats left to do? Some bras are still left unburned.

[a_greer]

Seems like he borrowed a line from Dean:

UPDATED

Kerry: "That flag doesn't belong to any president. It doesn't belong to any ideology and it doesn't belong to any political party. It belongs to all the American people."

Dean: "We need to take back the flag from the (insert laundry list of conservatives here)-s of the world"

[a_greer]

Originally posted by BRussell
Some bras are still left unburned. I always thought they were trying to "stick it to the man", but if they have no bras, that would just make the "man" horny, would it not?

[faust9]

Originally posted by a_greer
Seems like he borrowed a line from Dean:

kerry: "the flag is for every one, it doesn't just belong to a few who have claimed it" (something close, I dont have a transcript)

Dean: "We need to take back the flag from the (insert laundry list of conservatives here)-s of the world"

Well, that's because you're not paying attention(as in most threads). Look up a few post for the word "transcript".

[NaplesX]

Wasn't the whole Help is on it's way" a rip off from Cheney's acceptance speech from 2000?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by faust9
Transcript: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/election/article/0,1299,DRMN_36_3074928,00.html

I liked this little jab. It makes Bush's attack campaign seem less substantial.

I think that that is pretty clearly meant to make Bush look bad for a) running just about nothing but negative ads about Kerry and b) coming on even stronger as we cruise into September and Bush is still lagging in the polls (http://www.electoral-vote.com).

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by faust9
Transcript: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/election/article/0,1299,DRMN_36_3074928,00.html

I liked thi