New Quicksilver not Selling

[tiramisubomb]

One of the best local Apple retailer in Causeway Bay Hong Kong in which I talk to has given very negative impression on the new Quicksilver. He told me not only does it look ugly but minimal performance gain especially of DP 1GHZ continues to steer customers away. Instead old Quicksilver SP 933 and DP 1 GHZ are selling well, Because of better pricing, but also on par performance compared to the new Dual 1GHZ. So I wonder how other countries are doing? We have don't have any Apple Stores here? But how about in U,S, Japan and Europe? Anything to share, guys

[Moogs]

Apple will find out in a hurry that after the initial rush, these things will bomb miserably. I will bet money the Dual 1.25 will outperform the new Dual 1.0 by perhaps 5-10% overall, and the new Dual 1.0 will outperform the old one by less than 5%.

Simple fact: the MPX architecture is not built to perform at the level Power Mac users require - not anymore. It worked out OK with the older G4 systems because the chips were not fast enough to force the kind of bottlenecks we've been seeing since the introduction of QuickSilver.

The bottom line: until Apple introduces a Power Mac with a desktop-driven architecture, Power Mac sales will languish. We have reached the point where faster and faster processors will not - as a rule - get us faster performance when run on MPX. Why? Because MPX was not designed with desktop workstations in mind.

It's designed to provide maximum flexibility for Motorola's embedded systems customers. And based on what I've read, that's the way they WANT IT. MPX is not going to be replaced anytime soon, because the vast majority of companies who use it like it just the way it is.

So, if Apple wants the towers to sell for the duration of their production run, they had better find a way to put a true desktop-oriented architecture inside. Doesn't matter who designs it or who fabricates it - only that it happens. Extra CPU MHz isn't doing us any good on MPX at this point. Truth hurts, Apple.

*shrug* I got nothing but time and a sore back from sitting on my wallet all these months.

[ 08-19-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>

[Xaqtly]

You seem to think Apple is not aware of the problems with Motorola and their MPX. I can assure you that Apple is keenly aware of the problems and I guarantee you they have taken steps to remedy it. I'm guessing we'll see the answer to the problems anwhere between 6 months to a year from now.

[hmurchison]

Sheesh I know here in the Status the economy is just not good enough for the masses to be making large purchases. Computers aren't the only things that haven't been selling well.

[TigerWoods99]

Suddenly I'm loving every ounce of my old DP 1 GHz, and loving the fact that I bought over 6 months ago. Thanks Apple. :)

[iMud]

I'm sure all the Apple dealers out there are pushing the old quicksilvers as hard as they can before they are stuck with something they are gonna loose money on. God knows ebay is full of quicksilvers right now. What I want to know is are the new quicksilvers less noisy? I remember when the dual 800 was the top machine and everyone was complaining about the noise.

[Moogs]

Xaqtly:

I never said anything about Apple being "clueless" or unaware of these problems. Obviously they know. Obviously they should be trying to remedy the situation.

All I'm suggesting is, as long as we the users are offered MPX-based Power Macs, things will not get significantly better. I'm further suggesting unless Apple has designed a new PM architecture and has contracted the fabrication (or unless they do this at some point), all we have is MPX.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Kecksy]

I find it hard to believe that the new Quicksilvers aren't selling. More than a dozen people on these boards have already ordered one, and we're much more critical of Apple than the average Mac user.

[Multimedia]

I thought I was going to buy one before the announcement and independent evaluations since. But with the fake DDR memory that doesn't have a correspondingly fast FSB, it looks like a marketing trick rather than any sort of significant engineering achievement. I don't feel like buying a marketing trick this year.

When Apple can deliver a FSB that matches the DDR memory bus, then I will buy the significant engineering advancement. Like the man said above,

"Where's the Beef?"

BTW, I love the box because you can put 2 opticals inside and it has 3 ATA buses. But they aren't all 133 ATA like they should be by now (or at least both HD buses). I'll skip my rant on what else is obviously missing. You know the drill. This is marginal improvement inside a much improved box.

Let's hope they finally get it right in the next refresh. This waiting for the right refresh is getting pretty old. Apple seems to be clueless in the marketing department. I'll bet their engineering department is hogtied by that lousy marketing department. Those engineers must be going crazy with frustration.

Would love to read a book about this era in 5 years. I hope Steve Jobs will someday write a tell-all autobiography. I hope he's writing a diary of each day's details. It's a story probably worthy of a major motion picture or even a 10 hour mini-series. The political battles going on inside Apple, Motorola and IBM right now must be amazing.

Wish they'd let US in on the debates.

[ 08-19-2002: Message edited by: Multimedia ]</p>

[Eugene]

Next station, Tin Hau! Please alight on the left.

Seriously. All this is expected, especially in Hong Kong, which has never been a huge Apple market. All of Asia other than Japan = PC heaven.

As for my purchase plans, I was an early adopted two purchases in a row. My DP 1 GHz broke that cycle. I don't plan on buying a new computer until the rev. 2 Power Macs based on a brand new chip are introduced. :p

[Analogue bubblebath]

[quote]Originally posted by Multimedia:
<strong>When Apple can deliver a FSB that matches the DDR memory bus, then I will buy the significant engineering advancement.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This has already been pointed out a few times, but I'll say it again: The current G4 does not support anything faster than 167MHz SDR FSB. The FSB is Motorola's responsability. It doesn't matter if Apple's system controller supports a 167MHz DDR FSB (which it probably already does) as long as the CPU is bottlenecked by its slower FSB.

[ 08-19-2002: Message edited by: Analogue bubblebath ]</p>

[Max8319]

hell, my old 867 is still kickin' butt....all i got to do is buy one of the geforce4 TI upgrade kits and i'm set for a long time to come

[Multimedia]

Analogue bubblebath,
I know it's Motorola's fault. I'm just saying that Apple should do whatever it takes to get a processor ANY PROCESSOR that will support the entire speed boost to the 333MHz DDR level as long as it processes instructions faster than the current G4 1.25 GHz. I don't care if it's a Pentium 4 AMD — whatever. I hope it's the new 8X capable IBM chip that is coming up.

[Masker]

There is a huge built up demand for PowerMacs. Everyone can only wait so long due to fiscal budgets and other business factors. I myself am not blown away by the new machines but guiess what, it's time to spend and we are buying the new machines.

I think the new machines will sell fine.

In spite of DDR hack, fan noise, yadda yadda, ...

MSKR

[Sybaritic]

Originally posted by Masker: [quote] There is a huge built up demand for PowerMacs. Everyone can only wait so long due to fiscal budgets and other business factors. I myself am not blown away by the new machines but guiess what, it's time to spend and we are buying the new machines. <hr></blockquote>

Precisely. I'm doing the same thing. It's time. They may not have PC bragging rights, but the new machines will be fast, and at a better price point than the last stopgap update.

-------------------------------------
I Ordered It but Am Still Waiting in Nashville

[Matsu]

The update is a good one for now.

The problem is Apple's update cycle for each model is often a case of too little, too far between.

Analysis:

These models will sell well untill the first 1.25 Ghz machines start shipping. They'll sell well for a month after that, and will rapidly go flat in 2-3 weeks after most of the people who wanted DP 1.25's get their machines.

4-6 weeks to arrive.
4 weeks of strong selling
2-3 weeks to tail off

In 3 months all the same complaints will surface again.

The iMac FP's sales went flat in very short order. That time they forced people to buy the most expensive model if they wanted one right away. This time, people who want the fastest model will have to wait. Sales may stretch a little, but if it isn't updated soon, they're gonna start unwittingly stock-piling portal-macs.

[Cobra]

[quote]Suddenly I'm loving every ounce of my old DP 1 GHz, and loving the fact that I bought over 6 months ago. Thanks Apple.<hr></blockquote>


Yeah, thats great. I want to see Apple fail too.

[Moogs]

The last few posts also make a key point: immediately after every Power Mac rev, there is always a relatively small group of users who will upgrade. Either because they are the type of person who always has to have the fastest Mac available (and has the money), or because they feel they've "waited long enough" and are going to give in because they really need a better machine now and not later.

This will last for about a month (and may start up again for a few weeks when the 1.25's come out).

Let's revisit this topic in November, December and January (and beyond, should there be no update at MWSF). These things are not going to sell well, period. It's a good thing actually - it shows that the Mac user base is becoming more educated about the systems it buys, and more descriminating in general about how they spend their money.

Apple will be forced to take notice: this makes two lousy selling upgrades in a row (and during a shit economy). In the end, this will mean better products down the road for us. Stealth upgrades will become less prevalent, one would think.

[tiramisubomb]

Its interesting after reading all your posts, that most people agree that PM sales will likely suffer. I only based my observation in one of the hottest Hong Kong's Apple dealer but the impression they have given me was to basically stay away from this system for at least til the next revision. I guess the biggest complain lies in the area of pulling off 1MB L3 per chip for DP 1 GHZ model. May be Apple thinks about balancing component costs, but thats the new G4 unique feature. Now despite more drive bays, no performance gain. This new Quicksilver is a patch model, not even a revision. The way I see it, Apple only have 2 choices for the 1 GHZ model. Either add back the L3 cache or pull it off from their product line. Its their call.

[Matsu]

You should compare price points, not model similarities.

The DP 1Ghz replaces the SP933. Against that machine it is an improvement in every sense. 2 (slightly) faster CPU's, faster bus, better case, DDR (even if it only benefits system I/O) and the same amount of L3 cache (though it's split between 2 CPU's)

It's a good upgrade 'for now' but in 2 months it will face similar freshness problems.

Machines need to be updated more often, every 3-4 months in order to stay close. Bigger bumps would also help keep people interested for longer, as it is, machines too quickly fall too far behind.

[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>

[sizzle chest]

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>You should compare price points, not model similarities.

The DP 1Ghz replaces the SP933. Against that machine it is an improvement in every sense. 2 (slightly) faster CPU's, faster bus, better case, DDR (even if it only benefits system I/O) and the same amount of L3 cache (though it's split between 2 CPU's)
</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is an excellent point. Comparing the previous DP1ghz versus the new one is comparing a $2999 machine (previous) to a $2499 machine (new). Even if the performance didn't increase much in the new machine, the $500 price drop makes these new Powermacs a nice improvement over the old ones.

Having said that, the old dual ghz machines are looking like a sweet deal at $2199 closeout price right now.

[CodeWarrior]

The old models are selling better than the new because they are priced to move. My father ALMOST bought a demo dual 1-ghz for $1999 from the Apple store in Tampa, but wanted a non-demo and didn't want to pay $2199 for it. I thought he was dumb. We almost convinced him to buy the new version, but the difference in the specs between the two didn't make up for the difference in price (3 ATA chains & 2 opticals & 167 bus v. 2-MB L3 cache & cheaper ram & mostly the same overall performance) for $300. He currently is using a SuperMac S900 w/ G3/400 and is itching to upgrade.

[XiaXin]

[quote]Originally posted by tiramisubomb:
they have given me was to basically stay away from this system for at least til the next revision. [/QB]<hr></blockquote>

This is just a typical trick of these people who wants to clear up their inventory of the old PowerMacs. Trust me, go to there a few weeks later, they will tell you the totally different thing about the new PowerMac.Totally different! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[Gambit]

Just a little insight: these machines aren't called New Quicksilvers, the internal Apple name was "Dual Mirror," after the chrome finish and the dual bays. Just thought I'd share. (They SHOULD have smacked whomever came up with that code-name with an old-styled iBook, imho. I mean, seriously! Who follows up a cool name like QuickSilver with something so lame? Man. I guess this is just another Apple misstep. They'll be out of business in six months.)

[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: Gambit ]</p>

[Jet Powers]

Wow. A lot of market analysts post to AI. I had no idea. :rolleyes:

Jet

[applenut]

If the dual 867 had a superdrive and the new bus I would buy it.

because it doesn't.... no sale.

[Programmer]

Well I hear a lot of whining about these machines being slow, but my first impressions of my new 2 x 1 GHz DDR (w/ ATI 8500) are "wow", "Wow", and "WOW!"

Sure my previous Mac is 7 years old (but heavily upgraded), but I use a 1.5 GHz DDR Athlon w/ Win2K all day long at work... and this thing running Jaguar is awesome. I can't wait to do some serious tasks on this thing... it might not benchmark all that well but if feels faster than anything I've used before. Quartz Extreme was definitely a well chosen name...

I find the machine very attractive in person, and it is much quieter than my old Mac and the PC I have here at home.

[flylice]

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>If the dual 867 had a superdrive and the new bus I would buy it.

because it doesn't.... no sale.</strong><hr></blockquote>

[flylice]

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>If the dual 867 had a superdrive and the new bus I would buy it.

because it doesn't.... no sale.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Applenut, you can always BTO from Apple...

;)

[Sybaritic]

Great news on your new machine, Programmer. Considering that your credibility is higher than just about anyone on this forum, your enthusiasm means a lot.

I hope my new dual DDR machine arrives soon. I stayed with the new ATI 9000 in mine, and I'd be curious to know why you opted for the 8500. (I know the 8500 is a great card, and its price has been reduced recently). Give us your read and reasoning.

--------------------------------------
Waiting in Nashville

[Gambit]

I wasn't kidding about the internal code name of the new machines (Dual Mirror), but I WAS kidding about Apple going out of business because of it. However, I've seen and played with these new machines, too, and they DO look great in person. (Pictures hardly do any Apple product justice.) And they ARE fast. And they DO come with Jaguar which is freakin' awesome in its own right, never mind that it comes with a freakin' fast machine. (And unfortuantely for me, the machines at the Apple Store show off Remote Desktop 1.1, which I really really want! Man! This waiting stuff is for the birds! :) ) All in all I say it's a great machine to buy and don't let people fool you: it's really fast, especially so given how threaded Jag is; that OS really takes advantage of both processors.

[edited for clarrification]

[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Gambit ]</p>

[Programmer]

[quote]Originally posted by Sybaritic:
<strong>I hope my new dual DDR machine arrives soon. I stayed with the new ATI 9000 in mine, and I'd be curious to know why you opted for the 8500. (I know the 8500 is a great card, and its price has been reduced recently). Give us your read and reasoning.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Despite its higher numbering scheme, the 9000 is not a better card in all ways that the 8500. In particular the 8500 is a better 3D card and has a couple of capabilities missing from the 9000, and probably has better fill rate too. The 9000 is the low-end card of the 9xxx series, whereas the 8500 is the high-end card of the 8xxxx series (it also happens to be the only card!). The 9000 does have better video handling capabilities, but to me 3D is more important.

I'll get a 9700 when they're available.

[NO_FRIENDS]

I think that alot of the points above are valid except everyone seems to be missing one thing.


That dew to the popularality of the the 'Old Power Macs' and the then the new Quicksilver ones, its always going to be hard to better what everyone classes as pretty much the best deal. Or classic.


And all this name crap?? Does it matter? Does the shape matter that much as long as it looks ok and it actually does the jobs you ask it to then I don't really care.

If you worried about what it looks like then your in the wrong business....

go be a model for a magazine.

[Moogs]

While I agree is he is definitely a reputable fellow, Programmer's comments about his new machine (and the state of his old one) pretty much bear out what I was saying earlier. The people who are buying these dual mirror Macs are those who have been waiting a *long* time for an upgrade.

That is totally understandable IMO; I would do the same if my machine was just a year older than it is. But I believe we will see in the end analysis that very few people who had AGP, DA, or QuickSilver G4's found a reason to upgrade to DualMirror. You don't have to be a "market analyst" to figure out they won't sell very well. And frankly most of the real "market analysts" out there are being exposed for what they are - useless.

[groverat]

It's not always a "you have to buy them sometime" issue, in corporate/education environments Macs can be wiped off the slate in a blink because of performance and update sluggishness.

Kind of hard for an unbiased (guy who doesn't care about Windows v. MacOS arguments) to go with a platform that is always improving their performance and one that only improves once or twice a year, and only then marginally.

32 computers in my lab.
In 1998 it was 16/16 for PC/Mac.
Now it's 24/8.
Next cycle it will be 32/0.

[Sybaritic]

Thanks for the explanation on the 8500 versus the 9000, Programmer.

------------------------------------
Still Waiting in Tennessee

[bryan fury]

..im going from an icebook 500 so ANYTHING will be fast enough !

..i waited for 4 years for my last upgrade.

840av - 94-98.

Dual 1Ghz For Me w/ Gef4 Ti & 17"- NICE!

[Relic]

I'm with you to. I've waited a long time to update my tower. I welcome my new dual 1gig with open arms. Not as fast as I would like it but i don't think anything will ever be.

[Eugene]

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
32 computers in my lab.
In 1998 it was 16/16 for PC/Mac.
Now it's 24/8.
Next cycle it will be 32/0.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Whereas anybody who goes to UC Berkeley can tell you the opposite. Macs have more penetration than ever. Power Macs with 17 inch ASDs galore at every one of the W&MF computer labs. Maybe not 50/50 but 30/70 is pretty good and better than what it was when I came to Berkeley. As for labs I was involved in myself, the Open Computing Facility had no Macs in 1999 when I joined it. It now has 1 (an increase of infinity percent,) and I was not even involved in the decision to purchase it. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

But perhaps where Apple has the most influence of all is in Soda hall where I saw more and more people carrying iBooks and PowerBooks...which is actually quite surprising because grad students and other students with major projects are supplied with brand new courtesy IBM ThinkPads from the department to own. Of course Apple doesn't have the ability to donate on the level of Dell though, which gets its logo put all over the inside of the buildings.

[jeromba]

[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
<strong>

Despite its higher numbering scheme, the 9000 is not a better card in all ways that the 8500. In particular the 8500 is a better 3D card and has a couple of capabilities missing from the 9000, and probably has better fill rate too. The 9000 is the low-end card of the 9xxx series, whereas the 8500 is the high-end card of the 8xxxx series (it also happens to be the only card!). The 9000 does have better video handling capabilities, but to me 3D is more important.

I'll get a 9700 when they're available.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Can you tell me how and where you can find an ATI 8500 for AGP bus ???
They don't have it on ATI web site (only PCI). Apple have it, but it's only BTO for the xServe.
So tell us have you got an AGP version or PCI version ? The later is pretty bad I think for Quartz Xtreme.

[groverat]

Eugene:

If I had my way the Mac # would be climbing as well but the powers that be find what Apple offers to be very uncompelling, especially when you take into account that Dell showers love all over the University of Texas in Austin and Apple has started to become a pain in the ass (orders mysteriously disappearing and such). It pisses me off because I dig having brand new very expensive PowerMacs to play with. :(

[Kecksy]

[quote]Originally posted by jeromba:
<strong>

Can you tell me how and where you can find an ATI 8500 for AGP bus ???
They don't have it on ATI web site (only PCI). Apple have it, but it's only BTO for the xServe.
So tell us have you got an AGP version or PCI version ? The later is pretty bad I think for Quartz Xtreme.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What are you talking about? There is no PCI version of the 8500. The Radeon 8500 is AGP only.

[sCreeD]

[quote]Originally posted by jeromba:
<strong>Can you tell me how and where you can find an ATI 8500 for AGP bus ???
They don't have it on ATI web site (only PCI). Apple have it, but it's only BTO for the xServe.
So tell us have you got an AGP version or PCI version ? The later is pretty bad I think for Quartz Xtreme.</strong><hr></blockquote>

$183.95 @ <a href="http://www.computers4sure.com/product.asp?productid=472703&affid=2163&adid=2163" target="_blank">Computers4Sure</a>

Screed ...<a href="http://www.pricegrabber.com" target="_blank">Pricegrabber</a> is your friend.

[jeromba]

[quote]Originally posted by Son of Pismo:
<strong>

What are you talking about? There is no PCI version of the 8500. The Radeon 8500 is AGP only.</strong><hr></blockquote>

sorry was not completely woke up this morning... I messed up with AGP/PCI & ADC/DVI... oh man ! <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" /> <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />