"I had an abortion" t-shirts for sale!

[BRussell]

Planned Parenthood is selling these t-shirts (http://store.yahoo.com/ppfastore/ihadabt.html):

http://store1.yimg.com/I/ppfastore_1802_384152

It seems odd to me. No one thinks abortion is a cool thing, even if you're pro-choice. I could see a t-shirt saying "I'm pro-choice," but I can't imagine anyone actually wearing one of these things outside of a NARAL rally.

[applenut]

:no:

[trumptman]

I'll be posting the link for my "Your mom should have had an abortion" shirts soon.:devil:

Nick

[JimDreamworx]

Originally posted by trumptman
...the link for my "Your mom should have had an abortion" shirts...
Yes! I want!

Don't know if you're serious, but that's a cool idea.
Kind of like one I thought of (that I'm sure exists somewhere) which involves putting someone's face that you don't like on a complete roll of toilet paper.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by BRussell
Planned Parenthood is selling these t-shirts (http://store.yahoo.com/ppfastore/ihadabt.html):

http://store1.yimg.com/I/ppfastore_1802_384152

It seems odd to me. No one thinks abortion is a cool thing, even if you're pro-choice. I could see a t-shirt saying "I'm pro-choice," but I can't imagine anyone actually wearing one of these things outside of a NARAL rally.

I think some people DO think abortion is a cool thing. I think there is pro-choice, pro-life...and then pro-abortion.

[ShawnJ]

I like them. :)

Among many items offered in the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA) online store is this T-shirt with the message, “I had an abortion.” This shirt was not created by PPFA, but we do offer it in our store.

The T-shirt delivers a message that is intended to confront and subvert the sense of shame surrounding abortion that has been so deliberately created by the anti-choice movement. "I had an abortion" is a statement that breaks a silence, and not a cavalier declaration.

One in three women will have an abortion by the time they are 45, yet abortion remains an unspoken reality in our society. For some women the choice to terminate a pregnancy is a decision they wish to keep private, while others want to share their experiences in order to let other women know that there is nothing shameful about exercising the right to choose abortion. The T-shirt is thus a way for women to take ownership of their personal experiences and to communicate their stories. We believe it is particularly important to help women do so now in the current political climate, when reproductive rights are under unprecedented attack and honest, open discourse is so desperately needed.

The anti-choice movement never yields in publicly discussing abortion. As part of their rhetoric, many anti-choice activists declare that they had abortions. Their motive is to place a scarlet letter in our minds and then to re-criminalize abortion; ours is to spark discussion and cast off shame.

Women who have abortions are the same women who have children, and they make both of those decisions with thought and heart and moral deliberation.

As an organization, Planned Parenthood does more to prevent unintended pregnancy and the need for abortion than any other group. Our belief that every pregnancy should be a wanted pregnancy and every child a wanted child is the very core of our mission. Reproductive rights and the ability to control one's own fertility are fundamental human rights. Our goal in selling this T-shirt is to remind people that abortion policy affects real people and that guaranteeing safe and legal abortion is critical to our rights and our health.

Anti-choice forces have never worked harder to shame women into silence about the realities of their lives. It is our duty to empower women who wish to share their experience with the venues to do so — free from the stigma, prejudice, and censorship others wish to impose.

[Placebo]

I'd like a "You shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place, you whore."

[Ichiban_jay]

I think it would be funny if they made that shirt for guys. :lol:

But for a girl to wear that shirt.... :wow: I can just see violence around the corner

[Northgate]

I think it's tasteless and damages the pro-choice movement.

[Common Man]

This is disgusting. Planned Parenthood is a horrid organization. They promote immorality and the murder of babies. We protest one of their places a few times a month. They are just disgusting.

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

Originally posted by Placebo
I'd like a "You shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place, you whore."

how 'bout "put a condom on your penis you irresponsible piece of shit"

[Placebo]

Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
how 'bout "put a condom on your penis you irresponsible piece of shit"
Yeah, but that has less shock value. Maybe I'll sell both shirts.

How bout "A condom's cheaper than an abortion"

[ShawnJ]

How about, "provide thorough sex education in schools and easy access to a variety of cheap contraceptives, you ignorant slut!" (actual size of text on t-shirt)

[trumptman]

Look at all these great shirt ideas! Who's designing the website and what percent of the total revenue do I get?

Nick

[superkarate monkeydeathcar]

they could be as big as the wham! and "frankie says" shirts of the eighties!

[pfflam]

Originally posted by BRussell
Planned Parenthood is selling these t-shirts (http://store.yahoo.com/ppfastore/ihadabt.html):

http://store1.yimg.com/I/ppfastore_1802_384152

It seems odd to me. No one thinks abortion is a cool thing, even if you're pro-choice. I could see a t-shirt saying "I'm pro-choice," but I can't imagine anyone actually wearing one of these things outside of a NARAL rally. that is really repugnant and thouroughly discredits pro-choice stance. . . . what is worse if the notion in the rhetoric that accompanies the shirt that makes it seem that an abortion is something that someone should not be ashamed of . . . . OF COURSE you should BE ASHAMED if you had an abortion . . . it isn't something to sing songs of joy about!!!!

[bunge]

You shouldn't be ashamed if you've had an abortion. Should you be ashamed if you had a kidney removed? Or a tumor? Or gall stones? Should you be ashamed if you had botox injections to remove wrinkles?

You should be content with your life.

[Scott]

[tyler durden]... but we're not.[/tyler durden]

[pfflam]

Originally posted by bunge
You shouldn't be ashamed if you've had an abortion. Should you be ashamed if you had a kidney removed? Or a tumor? Or gall stones? Should you be ashamed if you had botox injections to remove wrinkles?

You should be content with your life. That's absurd . . . to equate the possibility of bringing a life into the world with a kidney:wow: :err: :(

Come on people!! I'm pro-choice, even though I hate the idea of abortion . . . though women that I have known have had to have them, I would vote for trying to raise the child when possible.

What's shameful is that someone lacks the imagination to make room for what is the closest thing to a miracle that we can think of, That they can't imagine that their life can expand and that they can make room ( a Mexican saying says: "the child comes with a loaf of bread under its arm" -meaning that you will be amazed at what can be done when the child arrives) it is shameful that they fuucked without thinking about the profundity of sex and were completely unwilling to accept the seriousness of the consequences . . .

The way some of you think that it is like getting a zit clean, or a mole removed makes me absolutely question the pro-choice stance that I hold . . . is it that shallow for most people? Do they really think it is just another painful trip to the doctor? Do they think of it as just another option for birth control?

HUman existence is serious stuff!! This is it! its as serious as it gets! . . . treating it like fluff is sickening.

[ShawnJ]

It's threads like these and the responses within that makes me wish more women posted on these forums. What would they have to say about the notion of mandatory disgrace, shame, and guilt that many male posters insist must accompany all abortions? I don't believe in that. I don't believe that's the way it should be, especially in an environment without easy access to a variety of cheap or free contraceptives-- and one with poor or inconsistent sex education about one's choices. That's the real shame. I'm sure many of my left-leaning but anti-t-shirt friends would agree.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
It's threads like these and the responses within that makes me wish more women posted on these forums. What would they have to say about the notion of mandatory disgrace, shame, and guilt that many male posters insist must accompany all abortions? I don't believe in that. I don't believe that's the way it should be, especially in an environment without easy access to a variety of cheap or free contraceptives-- and one with poor or inconsistent sex education about one's choices. That's the real shame. I'm sure many of my left-leaning but anti-t-shirt friends would agree. You don't get it . . . men feel ashamed as well when their partner kills a potential child.

What do you think an abortion is? . . some kind of political litmus test? I would seriously question any woman's humanity if she felt nothing after an abortion. . . and I would doubt her sanity if she felt proud of it.

And as for your humanity, shawnj, I simply chalk it up to lack of experience and lack of years.

[bunge]

Originally posted by pfflam
The way some of you think that it is like getting a zit clean, or a mole removed makes me absolutely question the pro-choice stance that I hold . . . is it that shallow for most people? Do they really think it is just another painful trip to the doctor? Do they think of it as just another option for birth control?

It doesn't matter because it's their choice, not yours or mine. If you're pro-choice, then you agree to let someone make that choice for themselves regardless. It's not your place to judge and the fact that you do implies that in fact you're not pro-choice. Your way or the highway. That's unacceptable to me.

[ShawnJ]

Originally posted by pfflam
You don't get it . . . men feel ashamed as well when their partner kills a potential child.

What do you think an abortion is? . . some kind of political litmus test? I would seriously question any woman's humanity if she felt nothing after an abortion. . . and I would doubt her sanity if she felt proud of it.

And as for your humanity, shawnj, I simply chalk it up to lack of experience and lack of years.

And I chalk your opinion up to being a stodgy old man? Although I nearly always agree with what you have to say (even when I don't want to-- like your upsetting but observant review of "lost in translation"), our views sharply diverge here. I'm certainly up for debate, but my age and perceived experience is not. So drop it. :)

Still, I understand what you're saying-- generally the other half feels the affects of an abortion, too. And I agree. I don't agree that it's necessarily shame. But my point was that *maybe* women would have something different to say about what some men tell her she should or rather *must* feel.

And as far as a "political litmus test"-- no-- I don't know if that's an accurate description. I understand the diversity of viewpoints about reproductive rights even on the left, and I don't think everyone Must Accept My View. My point was that a lot of the people who have similar views as me should agree that a system that exacerbates rather than mitigates the number of abortions is the real shame-- or the greater problem.

That's my view. Why? Because it's unnecessary and preventable. As long as we live in a system that punishes working mothers-- that doesn't guarantee health care or a right to a living wage-- that doesn't provide the contraceptives and education I talked about--a whole host of reasons, really-- women shouldn't necessarily feel shamed. It's more complex than that-- and I think you know this.

[BRussell]

Abortions are awful. That's what's wrong with these shirts. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be safe and legal. It seems to me that that's the whole premise of a liberal philosophy: that even if you don't like something, you come down on the side of individual liberties.

There are so many examples - I hate Howard Stern. His show is the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen in my life. But I'm against censorship laws. I'll be honest, the thought of two men having sex really creeps me out. It must just be biologically programmed or something. Yet making it illegal creeps me out much more. Etc., etc.

The social conservatives are against things on an emotional level, and so they want them to be illegal. It's a gut-level reaction. Liberals use their neo-cortices and reason through the implications, despite any emotional reactions. But we don't have to like the things just because we support freedom to do them. That's what's wrong with this shirt, that it implies it's a good thing on an emotional level.

[ShawnJ]

Again, many women have positive experiences with abortion. For a little more literature on that note, read the following article in The Nation: We're Not Sorry, Charlie (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040202&s=baumgardner). Frankly, I don't blame them.

[midwinter]

I want a shirt that says "I had a medical procedure many people oppose."

[BRussell]

That article says it's a "sad and stressful" thing, which I'm sure is exactly right. It then says the women don't regret it, because it wasn't the right time for them to have a baby, which I'm sure is also right. But that's kind of the distinction I was making between rational vs. emotional.

A few years ago, my family had to take my mom off life support, because she was breathing only with the use of a machine, and she had a living will saying not to keep her on it. I'm sure it was the most difficult thing my dad ever had to do. I get teary-eyed thinking about it right now. It was the right thing to do, and yet it was awful, and I can't imagine wearing a t-shirt proclaiming it.

[ShawnJ]

I'm sorry about your mom. But the social stigma attached to removing life support is not nearly the same as the stigma attached to abortion. That's the reason for wearing the shirt- to subvert and confront the stigma. I'm sure most generally are sympathetic to your situation, with a few notable exceptions. Here, clearly, it's the other way around.

Edited for no reason at all.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
I'm sorry about your mom. But the social stigma attached to removing life support is not nearly the same as the stigma attached to abortion. That's the reason for wearing the shirt- to subvert and confront the stigma. I'm sure most generally are sympathetic to your situation, with a few notable exceptions. Here, clearly, it's the other way around.

Edited for no reason at all. That's probably true. And to the extent a shirt like that could reduce stigma, I suppose it would be a good thing. But I'm not sure it does reduce stigma, I think it trivializes the issue in a crass way.

To use another example, what about wearing an "I was raped" t-shirt. Rape victims are stigmatized, and it would be good to reduce that stigma. Some people have said that not publishing the names of rape victims serves to further stigmatize them. So sometimes on shows like Oprah women go on and talk about it. But wouldn't a t-shirt be ridiculous and horrible? I could imagine and respect someone going on TV to talk about having an abortion, to reduce the stigma. But to put it on a t-shirt just seems to trivialize it.

I'm not trying to say that women are bad for having abortions, or that they should be stigmatized. I guess it just seems like a very difficult and highly personal issue, and putting it on a t-shirt, the home of American commercialism, just seems in bad taste.

[ShawnJ]

Good points-- all of them. :) I think I agree.

[bunge]

Originally posted by BRussell
That's probably true. And to the extent a shirt like that could reduce stigma, I suppose it would be a good thing. But I'm not sure it does reduce stigma, I think it trivializes the issue in a crass way.

But that's good too. Free flow of information. If everybody knew everything, there would be nothing to hide.

The fact that some people here want a woman to hide this information scares me most.

[Existence]

I like the t-shirt.

Originally posted by Placebo
I'd like a "You shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place, you whore."

Tell that to a rapist.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a08/a08.gif

Ah, t-shirthell.com.

[Anders]

Do the t-shirt say

Yahoooooo. I just did my first ABORTION. Kiss me


No. it states a fact. It tells that you shouldn´t be ashamed or lie about it. It doesnt brag about it.

To say people should hide it is a little bit shameful is like telling a homosexual to tone down their sexuality and please dont wear that multicoloured badge because we don´t like to be reminded that your type exists, although we fully respect your sexuality on the intellectual plan.

I dont like the idea of an abortion either and would like to make sure that the conditions that needed to avoid one was available to the mother. But the choice isn´t mine and in the end I cannot question the decision because I am not in her shoe. And to hide it because its a little bit shameful is to say the woman made a wrong decision.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Anders
Do the t-shirt say

Yahoooooo. I just did my first ABORTION. Kiss me


No. it states a fact. It tells that you shouldn´t be ashamed or lie about it. It doesnt brag about it.

To say people should hide it is a little bit shameful is like telling a homosexual to tone down their sexuality and please dont wear that multicoloured badge because we don´t like to be reminded that your type exists, although we fully respect your sexuality on the intellectual plan.

I dont like the idea of an abortion either and would like to make sure that the conditions that needed to avoid one was available to the mother. But the choice isn´t mine and in the end I cannot question the decision because I am not in her shoe. And to hide it because its a little bit shameful is to say the woman made a wrong decision.

I don't care to know about strangers' sexual orientations either. How about this, Anders and bunge, why don't you two post your real name and address in here, and describe all of the most personal issues about yourself - who you've had sex with, how often you masturbate, whether you're circumcised, and any other info of that nature. And why don't you wear a t-shirt that says some of those things.

[Anders]

Originally posted by BRussell
I don't care to know about strangers' sexual orientations either. How about this, Anders and bunge, why don't you two post your real name and address in here, and describe all of the most personal issues about yourself - who you've had sex with, how often you masturbate, whether you're circumcised, and any other info of that nature. And why don't you wear a t-shirt that says some of those things.

Are you sure you don´t have it the other way around? One thing is if I want to expose my sexual habits, another thing is whether I should be ashamed to do so.

I don´t demand that everybody who had an abortion should wear a sign saying so. But those who wear one shouldn´t be stigmazied. There is nothing to be ashamed of.

[kneelbeforezod]

Originally posted by Common Man
We protest one of their [Planned Parenthood] places a few times a month. Really? What do these protests involve?

[kneelbeforezod]

Originally posted by pfflam
OF COURSE you should BE ASHAMED if you had an abortion I don't see how you can make a statement like this and then claim to be pro-choice. If you believe abortion to be a shameful thing, don't have one. Don't assume the responsibility of telling people how they should feel based on your beliefs.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Anders
Are you sure you don´t have it the other way around? One thing is if I want to expose my sexual habits, another thing is whether I should be ashamed to do so. But that's really what I'm talking about. Why wouldn't you want to expose them? The reason you wouldn't want to expose them is that they're private and personal, and other people just don't need to know about it. Just like abortion. Masturbation is natural and normal and everyone does it, and yet I can't believe you wouldn't think it was strange and silly if someone wore a shirt proclaiming that they do it.

[kneelbeforezod]

Originally posted by pfflam
The way some of you think that it is like getting a zit clean, or a mole removed makes me absolutely question the pro-choice stance that I hold . . . is it that shallow for most people? Do they really think it is just another painful trip to the doctor? Do they think of it as just another option for birth control?Some do. One person I know had an abortion a few years ago and it appeared to mean very little to her. Going on outward appearances alone, she seemed to regard it as an inconvenience. I don't know her personal thoughts on the matter.

Another person I know had an abortion when she was quite young and regrets it to this day. She knows that there would have been no way that she could have provided for a child, but her decision still saddens her.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
I don't see how you can make a statement like this and then claim to be pro-choice. If you believe abortion to be a shameful thing, don't have one. Don't assume the responsibility of telling people how they should feel based on your beliefs. He can claim to be pro-choice because he believes abortion should be safe and legal. That's all it takes. You don't have to love the things that you want people to be free to do. Isn't that the basic premise of liberalism? "I disapprove of what you say, but would defend your right to say it" and all that?

[Anders]

Originally posted by BRussell
But that's really what I'm talking about. Why wouldn't you want to expose them? The reason you wouldn't want to expose them is that they're private and personal, and other people just don't need to know about it. Just like abortion. Masturbation is natural and normal and everyone does it, and yet I can't believe you wouldn't think it was strange and silly if someone wore a shirt proclaiming that they do it.

I don´t have any problems with what you write

The problem I have is reactions like pfflams: that you should be ashamed to get an abortion.

[kneelbeforezod]

Originally posted by BRussell
He can claim to be pro-choice because he believes abortion should be safe and legal. That's all it takes. You don't have to love the things that you want people to be free to do. Isn't that the basic premise of liberalism? "I disapprove of what you say, but would defend your right to say it" and all that? Perhaps I was being a little unfair...but I do think that support for a woman's right to choose is diminished if it goes hand in hand with condemnation for their exercising that right.

[SDW2001]

Northgate:

I think it's tasteless and damages the pro choice movement

pfflam:

that is really repugnant and thouroughly discredits pro-choice stance. . . . what is worse if the notion in the rhetoric that accompanies the shirt that makes it seem that an abortion is something that someone should not be ashamed of . . . . OF COURSE you should BE ASHAMED if you had an abortion . . . it isn't something to sing songs of joy about!!!

I never thought I'd say this with respect to the both of you...but, AGREED.

Shawn,

I think you're very misguided on this issue. Whether one supports legal abortion or not, abortion is taking the life of a child. No matter what the circumstances, that's a sad thing...even if it is needed or chosen.


I'm sorry about your mom. But the social stigma attached to removing life support is not nearly the same as the stigma attached to abortion. That's the reason for wearing the shirt- to subvert and confront the stigma. I'm sure most generally are sympathetic to your situation, with a few notable exceptions. Here, clearly, it's the other way around.


Wow, I'm sorry...but you must be from another planet. God forbid we have a society that <GASP> thinks abortion should be relatively private. I think what you really want is to make abortion socially acceptable. It's not and it shouldn't be. People DO make moral judgments about those who've had abortions because said individuals have opted to take a life. That's a personal decision under our laws, but don't expect me or anyone else to just shrug and say "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

There IS something wrong with it, even if it is legal. It doesn't mean I think the person who had one is "evil" or even a bad person. It means that I think it's a serious thing to take human life. It's absolutely REPUGNANT and DISGUSTING to seel shirts that advertise the fact that one had an abortion.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Perhaps I was being a little unfair...but I do think that support for a woman's right to choose is diminished if it goes hand in hand with condemnation for their exercising that right.

Choices have consequences. I suppose that pretty soon we're going to start the "abortion is not a choice" argument".


World...

Hell...

Handbasket.

[tonton]

There's no shame in being raped. There's no shame in being a victim of incest. There's no shame in having sex with your boyfriend and the condom breaks. There's no shame in being foolish enough to believe some idiot who preaches the rhythm method and then being wise enough not to give birth to a child when that's not what you want to do or are capable of supporting.

There are many reasons someone who has had an abortion should not feel ashamed about it.

[Anders]

Originally posted by SDW2001


Wow, I'm sorry...but you must be from another planet. God forbid we have a society that <GASP> thinks abortion should be relatively private. I think what you really want is to make abortion socially acceptable. It's not and it shouldn't be. People DO make moral judgments about those who've had abortions because said individuals have opted to take a life. That's a personal decision under our laws, but don't expect me or anyone else to just shrug and say "Not that there's anything wrong with that."


I would be disappointed if you said that ;)

No I dont want to make you think that abortion is 10-4 (well I do but ...well you know what I mean). But neither would I want women who think its okay to have an abortion to be shy about it just because there is someone out there who don´t want to know "bad stuff" like that happens in the world.

[Common Man]

Our protests are peaceful and informative. We walk on the sidewalk where it is legal. We carry signs. We often sing. We have information about alternatives available. It amazes me how many of you who got so up at arms about a few terrorists on a leash take the murder of innocent babies so lightly.

Moe

[Placebo]

Other than me, are there any pro-life'rs that are liberal and secular?

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Placebo
Other than me, are there any pro-life'rs that are liberal and secular? Probably not, but it sure seems like the vast majority base their position on religious ideas. And that's strange because I don't think there's anything in the Bible or that Jesus said that would suggest abortion should be outlawed. There's "thou shalt not kill" in the 10 commandments, but that's really the debate - is abortion killing/murder?

[faust9]

Originally posted by BRussell
Probably not, but it sure seems like the vast majority base their position on religious ideas. And that's strange because I don't think there's anything in the Bible or that Jesus said that would suggest abortion should be outlawed. There's "thou shalt not kill" in the 10 commandments, but that's really the debate - is abortion killing/murder?

The ironic twist here is "Thou shalt not kill" in any of its forms was/is originally an Old Testiment law. The practioners of the Old Testiment--The Jewish People--are not morally opposed to abortion. The fetus/embryo is not alive until god breaths breath into the child. That doesn't mean Jewish people are given free reign to have abortions. Jewish women can only have them if the pregnancy is life threatening because the fetus/embryo is a part of the woman until birth. Its odd though that Jews don't attach the same moral stigma to abortion as Christians do. Moreover, many Asia cultures also view abortion as an acceptible means of birth control. Buddhists feel abortion is wrong, but so is killing any animal. People who kill for whatever reason will have to answer their own demons in the afterlife according to Buddhist. Practioners of Shinto see abortion as giving the child back to the gods and attack nor moral stigmal to the act. In China abortion is an exceedingly acceptible solution with no moral stigma(except among Christians and Muslims).

Personally I am against abortion. If my wife had one for convenience I'd probably leave her. To me its murder unless the life of the mother is at stake. My view extends only to my direct family unit though. What right do I have to impose my views across the pickett fences of my neighborhood? None because my view is religiously based while my neighbors may have a different view of religion and abortion altogether.

[Towel]

Originally posted by SDW2001
Whether one supports legal abortion or not, abortion is taking the life of a child.Whoa there. I realize you're trying to sound tolerant, and I appreciate that, but phrasing the question as you did is exactly why this issue is so polarized. The whole point is that while you might think it's the murder of a child, lots of other sane, right-thinking people do not. And pro-choice people believe that in a secular nation, it's immoral and improper for you to impose your religious value judgments on everyone else. To participate meaningfully in the national debate on this subject, you have to understand that, even if you don't agree with it.Originally posted by Placebo
Other than me, are there any pro-life'rs that are liberal and secular?There are plenty of liberal, secular pro-lifers out there, but most of them happen to also be pro-choice. Like Mario Cuomo, like John Kerry, like many pro-choice Republicans. Like me. I used to be a viciously pro-life, anti-choice Catholic (and not a particularly liberal one), until - this is going to sound condescending, but I don't mean it that way - I grew up and opened my mind. My values didn't change, but I recognize that they're my values. As above, the essence of pro-choice is not love of abortion, but realization that your personal religious or moral beliefs, especially on as muddied as issue as this one, should not be imposed on others against their will. Thus, most secular, liberal folks who personally don't believe in abortion still seek to defend the right of others to make their own choice. Just like BRussell said a few posts above.

[bunge]

Originally posted by BRussell
Why wouldn't you want to expose them? The reason you wouldn't want to expose them is that they're private and personal, and other people just don't need to know about it. Just like abortion. Masturbation is natural and normal and everyone does it, and yet I can't believe you wouldn't think it was strange and silly if someone wore a shirt proclaiming that they do it.

You're 100% wrong. These are reasons why YOU wouldn't let the information out. Someone else might not give a shit. In a public place, it's wrong to ask the rest of the world to shelter you. If you don't like something, it's your responsibility to stay away. If you don't like sunlight, you can't have the government block out the sun.

Should people stop wearing crosses or burkas because it's 'personal' like masturbation?

[BRussell]

Originally posted by bunge
You're 100% wrong. These are reasons why YOU wouldn't let the information out. Someone else might not give a shit. In a public place, it's wrong to ask the rest of the world to shelter you. If you don't like something, it's your responsibility to stay away. If you don't like sunlight, you can't have the government block out the sun.

Should people stop wearing crosses or burkas because it's 'personal' like masturbation?

You seem to be suggesting that one can't have opinions about the behavior of others. That seems unrealistic. I think people shouldn't smoke. I think people shouldn't make racist comments. I think bald men shouldn't wear comb-overs. Note that in none of those cases do I want the government involved, as you suggest above. I'm also not asking to be sheltered, I'm simply expressing my opinion of what I view as bad or tasteless behavior; I also believe it would be tasteless for someone to wear an "I had an abortion" t-shirt.

To believe in freedom doesn't mean to lose discernment. To oppose government restriction doesn't mean to oppose personal disapproval. To me, that's the essence of liberalism.

Let me ask you: Is there anything (speech, behavior, etc.) that you would oppose the gov't regulating, and yet you would personally disapprove? Or does your personal opinion always = your beliefs about what government should do, so that if bunge approves, the gov't shouldn't regulate, and if bunge opposes, bunge wants a law against it?

[bunge]

Originally posted by BRussell
You seem to be suggesting that one can't have opinions about the behavior of others.

Saying someone shouldn't wear the shirt goes beyond an opinion though, at least as I read it. Your opinion is that you don't want to have to see someone wearing it, but saying someone shouldn't goes beyond. You're attempting to change another person's behavior, which is why I say it's more than simply opinion.

Yes, obviously you're welcome to your opinion, but once you say someone has to change their behavior because of your opinion you move into the realm of regulation. I didn't mean to blur the lines, split hairs or whatever.

As for your direct question, I definitely don't want the government to regulate any speech and personally oppose none. But, if there was some I did oppose of I wouldn't want it regulated.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by bunge
Saying someone shouldn't wear the shirt goes beyond an opinion though, at least as I read it. Your opinion is that you don't want to have to see someone wearing it, but saying someone shouldn't goes beyond. You're attempting to change another person's behavior, which is why I say it's more than simply opinion.

Yes, obviously you're welcome to your opinion, but once you say someone has to change their behavior because of your opinion you move into the realm of regulation. I didn't mean to blur the lines, split hairs or whatever.

As for your direct question, I definitely don't want the government to regulate any speech and personally oppose none. But, if there was some I did oppose of I wouldn't want it regulated.

Actually, I'd argue that the opinion is "I don't like that shirt."

[tonton]

"I masturbate. So what."

I'd wear that on a t-shirt.

I don't think the "I had an abortion" t-shirts are that great, but I'd love for women to start wearing "I was raped" t-shirts. Or "I was raped and had an abortion". Take the shame out of being a rape victim. Let women know they are at risk and let other rape victims know that it's nothing to be ashamed about.

[Outsider]

Is it possible to be pro-life AND pro-choice? I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I think abortion is wrong like I think punching someone in the face is wrong. But there are times when either one may be necessary.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by tonton
"I masturbate. So what."

I'd wear that on a t-shirt. Ha, I'd like to see that. Make it a bet.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by Towel
Whoa there. I realize you're trying to sound tolerant, and I appreciate that, but phrasing the question as you did is exactly why this issue is so polarized. The whole point is that while you might think it's the murder of a child, lots of other sane, right-thinking people do not. And pro-choice people believe that in a secular nation, it's immoral and improper for you to impose your religious value judgments on everyone else. To participate meaningfully in the national debate on this subject, you have to understand that, even if you don't agree with it.There are plenty of liberal, secular pro-lifers out there, but most of them happen to also be pro-choice. Like Mario Cuomo, like John Kerry, like many pro-choice Republicans. Like me. I used to be a viciously pro-life, anti-choice Catholic (and not a particularly liberal one), until - this is going to sound condescending, but I don't mean it that way - I grew up and opened my mind. My values didn't change, but I recognize that they're my values. As above, the essence of pro-choice is not love of abortion, but realization that your personal religious or moral beliefs, especially on as muddied as issue as this one, should not be imposed on others against their will. Thus, most secular, liberal folks who personally don't believe in abortion still seek to defend the right of others to make their own choice. Just like BRussell said a few posts above.

It's taking the life of a child. Period. If you can't admit that, then there is nothing to discuss. With modern technology, we can see that fetuses yawn and stretch and such at like 10 weeks. It's a life. End of story.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by tonton
"I masturbate. So what."

I'd wear that on a t-shirt.

I don't think the "I had an abortion" t-shirts are that great, but I'd love for women to start wearing "I was raped" t-shirts. Or "I was raped and had an abortion". Take the shame out of being a rape victim. Let women know they are at risk and let other rape victims know that it's nothing to be ashamed about.

And you honestly think that would help them not feel shame? I know someone who was raped. She doesn't like to talk about it. She doesn't want her life to be about being raped. Wearing a goddamn T shirt isn't going to help people who get raped feel any better.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by Outsider
Is it possible to be pro-life AND pro-choice? I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I think abortion is wrong like I think punching someone in the face is wrong. But there are times when either one may be necessary.

That's pretty much my position. Actually, abortion is an issue I'm not sure I've made up my mind on.

[tonton]

Originally posted by SDW2001
And you honestly think that would help them not feel shame? I know someone who was raped. She doesn't like to talk about it. She doesn't want her life to be about being raped. Wearing a goddamn T shirt isn't going to help people who get raped feel any better.

All of us know someone who has been raped. I can just about guarantee it. Your friend who doesn't like to talk about it obviously talks about it more than most victims do.

And yes, talking about it helps. A lot. Phsychologists would agree. The message needs to go out that it's okay to talk about it. It's confronting the problem instead of hiding it.

I'm not saying the t-shirt would be the right thing for every rape victim to wear. But I doubt the t-shirt would make women feel worse about their own experiences, except as a reminder, which is not always a bad thing. And it definitely would get the message out to men that the days of women keeping quiet about rape are numbered.

[tonton]

Originally posted by SDW2001
It's taking the life of a child. Period. If you can't admit that, then there is nothing to discuss. With modern technology, we can see that fetuses yawn and stretch and such at like 10 weeks. It's a life. End of story.

No. The foetus is part of the woman's body.

Any movement of the foetus at that stage of pregnancy is a reflex. There is no cognitive ability. It is a potential child. But then again so is the sperm (they move too) you spill into a condom, tissue or the shower floor. And if it's about conception, you do realize that the majority of fertilized eggs are naturally flushed away. Usually because they have trouble attaching to the uterus, but quite often in early miscarriage. Wouldn't you say then, that God is killing babies?

To bring an unwanted child or a child who has little potential to have a good childhood or who will cause serious harm to the life and future of a mother who does not want the child is a crime to humanity.

[bunge]

Originally posted by midwinter
Actually, I'd argue that the opinion is "I don't like that shirt."

He very clearly stated that people shouldn't want to expose this kind of information. He's saying other people shouldn't wear this shirt because it's personal and private information they shouldn't share with others. I just take the opposite view, that he (or anyone else for that matter) doesn't want to see it but that has no bearing on what shirt someone else should or shouldn't wear.

[bunge]

Originally posted by SDW2001
Wearing a goddamn T shirt isn't going to help people who get raped feel any better.

How would you know what makes everyone feel happy or not? You're absolutely 100% wrong to believe you know that just as I feel that BRussell is wrong to believe that someone shouldn't want to advertise personal information about themselves.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by Anders
To say people should hide it is a little bit shameful is like telling a homosexual to tone down their sexuality and please dont wear that multicoloured badge because we don´t like to be reminded that your type exists,. First off, I would never not support a women who chose to have an abotion, it is her choice.

That does not mean that I have to find the reasons for her choice to be meaningful and reasonable in an abstract sense.
For instance, if a woman said that she wanted to terminate the coming child because she fears it might be a Leo and Leo's tend to be self centered, then I would think that her head is on wrong and that she has put blatantly idiotic ideas before a real responcibility and a natural marvel
If a woman gets an abortion because she wants to go see a Neil Diamond Concert and throw panties without a elly then I would be angry at her self absorbed narcissistic trivial attitude towards life and denial of the responsibility that being pregnant implies.

When I say someone should be ashamed I mean in circumstances where they have opted to terminate pregnancy in favor of something, anything, about themselves and their life that is tantamount to saying 'I got an abortion because the child doesn't fit in the picture' . . . I didn't mean in cases of health or rape cases (though there imagination and an open attitude to the gifts of possibilities can be astounding as well)

I think that generally we have a profoundly sick society: we imagine ourselves to be these isolated atoms, disconnected egos that exist in a sovereign void barely touching one another only when we complete a cash transaction . . . I think that too much of our lives revolve around an image of ourselves, and that we adore that image and it is false and alienated . . . I also tend to think that too many abortions are the result of merely accepting that image as truth and not using the most important faculty of our humanity, the imagination, in order to try and tackle what should be seen as a very serious situation.

I think that we are a narcissistic culture and choosing to give in easily when confronted with such a delemma is egotistical and probably trivializes the reality.
I don't think people realize what they are doing generally . . . on a daily basis . . . and in cases of abortion I also think that many people don't understand the gravity of their actions . . . especially when 'convenience' trumpts imaginatively taking up the challenge to be truly human beyond one's egotistical little interests . . . i think people should feel ashamed when their imaginations fail them.

But I wouldn't legislate something like that.

[bunge]

pfflam, while you're correct that some people might have an abortion because they want to throw panties at Neil Diamond, this T-Shirt is not a window into the motivation of a woman's choice. Some people here are perceiving it to be, when in fact it's just a T-Shirt. Adding any more significance to the shirt is, well, silly.

[zaphod_beeblebrox]

Originally posted by BRussell

... A few years ago, my family had to take my mom off life support, because she was breathing only with the use of a machine, and she had a living will saying not to keep her on it. I'm sure it was the most difficult thing my dad ever had to do...I'm sure it was. My family went through the same kind of hell. And? How do these experiences shed ANY light on the topic at hand? Your mother had a living will as did mine. At the very end she needed us to tell the doctors her wishes but she wasn't voiceless. As painful as it was, we were carrying out her wishes. That's probably what gave us the courage to make the decision. She'd made it for us.

Contrast that with what happens with an abortion. The putative mother has her say but the one with the most at stake - the human life that will be ended - is voiceless. It's just not the same thing.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by bunge
How would you know what makes everyone feel happy or not? You're absolutely 100% wrong to believe you know that just as I feel that BRussell is wrong to believe that someone shouldn't want to advertise personal information about themselves.

Because it's a stupid idea. That's why. Rape will not be made less horrible by wearing a t shirt. Jesus christ.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by tonton
No. The foetus is part of the woman's body.

Any movement of the foetus at that stage of pregnancy is a reflex. There is no cognitive ability. It is a potential child. But then again so is the sperm (they move too) you spill into a condom, tissue or the shower floor. And if it's about conception, you do realize that the majority of fertilized eggs are naturally flushed away. Usually because they have trouble attaching to the uterus, but quite often in early miscarriage. Wouldn't you say then, that God is killing babies?

To bring an unwanted child or a child who has little potential to have a good childhood or who will cause serious harm to the life and future of a mother who does not want the child is a crime to humanity.

It's a life. Say it with me: A life. Whether you support the legality of taking it or not is another issue. Look at some high res ultrasounds and tell me it's not a life.

BTW: I would not agree that the "majority" of fertilized eggs get flushed out. I'm not sure that's accurate.

[jimmac]

Originally posted by SDW2001
It's a life. Say it with me: A life. Whether you support the legality of taking it or not is another issue. Look at some high res ultrasounds and tell me it's not a life.

BTW: I would not agree that the "majority" of fertilized eggs get flushed out. I'm not sure that's accurate.

I'm kind of in agreement with you about the t-shirt part of this issue. It really doesn't help anything with this issue.

However SDW at what point does the fetus stop being just tissue and become self aware life?

Because if you're just counting life under that definition you'd better stop triming your nails ( or having surgery for cancer ).

Or are you one of those " potential " people? In which case you'd better not use a condom.

I think most people think the fetus becomes a human life when it becomes self aware or cognitive. That doesn't happen from the get go.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by zaphod_beeblebrox
I'm sure it was. My family went through the same kind of hell. And? How do these experiences shed ANY light on the topic at hand? Your mother had a living will as did mine. At the very end she needed us to tell the doctors her wishes but she wasn't voiceless. As painful as it was, we were carrying out her wishes. That's probably what gave us the courage to make the decision. She'd made it for us.

Contrast that with what happens with an abortion. The putative mother has her say but the one with the most at stake - the human life that will be ended - is voiceless. It's just not the same thing. zaphod is back like a lighting bolt!

It's not the same thing, but it's an example of how one can support something that is personal and controversial and yet not want to publicize it. I'm not sure why you deleted all the context from my post, quoted it, and then challenged me on the missing context.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by SDW2001
It's a life. Say it with me: A life. Whether you support the legality of taking it or not is another issue. Look at some high res ultrasounds and tell me it's not a life.

BTW: I would not agree that the "majority" of fertilized eggs get flushed out. I'm not sure that's accurate. I've read that too, that about half of fertilized eggs are aborted. You can probably find some references in here. (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22half+of+fertilized+eggs%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)

[SpcMs]

Originally posted by tonton
To bring an unwanted child or a child who has little potential to have a good childhood or who will cause serious harm to the life and future of a mother who does not want the child is a crime to humanity.

This statement is so dumb and offensive i don't even know where to start...

(and for reference, i'd like to join the pro-choice, pro-life, liberal secular group thing :))

[zaphod_beeblebrox]

Originally posted by BRussell
zaphod is back like a lighting bolt!

It's not the same thing, but it's an example of how one can support something that is personal and controversial and yet not want to publicize it. I'm not sure why you deleted all the context from my post, quoted it, and then challenged me on the missing context. There's no missing context. The decision to pull the plug on someone who has specifically requested they not be kept alive on a machine is not nearly so controversial as is abortion.

[bunge]

Originally posted by SDW2001
Because it's a stupid idea. That's why. Rape will not be made less horrible by wearing a t shirt. Jesus christ.

I didn't say it would be made less horrible, I said you wouldn't know if wearing the shirt made someone feel better.

"Because it's a stupid idea."

That's the crux of the argument here. Some of you think it's stupid, but someone wearing the shirt probably doesn't care and shouldn't. I think it's stupid that someone wears a christian cross around their neck. Who cares if that's what I think?

[BRussell]

Originally posted by bunge
I didn't say it would be made less horrible, I said you wouldn't know if wearing the shirt made someone feel better.

"Because it's a stupid idea."

That's the crux of the argument here. Some of you think it's stupid, but someone wearing the shirt probably doesn't care and shouldn't. I think it's stupid that someone wears a christian cross around their neck. Who cares if that's what I think? It still sounds to me like you're basically saying that it's wrong to have a negative opinion about someone else's behavior. :???:

[edit] I was reading the posts again, and you said that you thought I was trying to change someone else's behavior, which goes beyond a simply opinion. Actually I don't think I ever said anything like that, I just said I thought it was tasteless.

But let's take it further - what if I did say to someone "that's a tasteless shirt and you shouldn't wear it." Would that be wrong? We try to change people's behavior all the time. I might ask someone to vote for a candidate, or to stop making that loud noise. So what?

Obviously, I'm talking about doing it within reason - I don't mean stalking the person or pounding on their door 24 hrs. per day. But within general guidelines of respectful behavior, what's wrong with trying to change people's behavior?

Again, what I'm getting at is the separation between laws and private behavior. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's OK. Rather than asking the gov't to change people behavior, don't we normally keep the gov't out of it, and try to change behavior privately?

[bunge]

Originally posted by BRussell
It still sounds to me like you're basically saying that it's wrong to have a negative opinion about someone else's behavior. :???:

Sonofabitch!

Just wrong a long post and closed the window.

Mutherfucker!

Anyway, I'll make this brief. It's not wrong to hold any opinion, but opinions can be factually incorrect. SDW claims 'it's stupid' to wear the shirt. I claim his opinion is factually incorrect.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by bunge
Sonofabitch!

Just wrong a long post and closed the window.

Mutherfucker!

Anyway, I'll make this brief. It's not wrong to hold any opinion, but opinions can be factually incorrect. SDW claims 'it's stupid' to wear the shirt. I claim his opinion is factually incorrect. I think that he is correct . . . and I think there are tests, scientific tests, that can measure the stupidity within the shirt itself ;)

To continue with my philophastry (and I dare you to follow me): I think that we, as a culture, tend to mistake the idea that something 'is' something. Bill Clinton acually said a profound thing when he questioned the idea that the meaning of 'is' is so easy to understand. I think that we imagine that something is what it is at present . . . which ends up being what we think that it is. We don't think of things in terms of potentialities and possibilities: we are possessive and egotistical: we imagine that we have a fixed identity rather than being a part of a fluid process, (rather than becoming) . . . a process that is past and future in the form of actualities, and possibilities (actual possibles & possible actualities ) converging to give the illusion of a solid presence: the presence of the present time. We cling to this idea that this present is some fixed and known quantity, that we 'are' someone, and that this someone -who we picture ourselves to be- fits in a world that is 'pictured' as a fixed form, -a quantity, an image withing a sort of cognitive frame of intelligabiltiy: we fix the world in a picture and put our illusionary fixed ego-image into this picture -it all 'makes sense'.

But this is a process of reducing the actual possibilities and potentialities that are part of the becoming of the world - to imagine that we are a fixed entity and that our plans -that are based on those notions- are sensible, is to value the world in a certain manner. But since the world image and the self-image that is based on such false fixed ideas is a radical reduction of the becoming that is the world, then that image is a form of devaluing the plentitude of becoming.
In other words, when something 'is' something it has been reduced fundamentally . . . and when a cultural world view tends to see things in terms of 'is' and what soemthng is being then it devalues the world: it is the lack of imagination at the core of our culture . . . to say that something is what it is belittles.

How does this apply to abortion: we assume that it 'is' a life, or it 'is' not (which is still a kind of reduction) but the problem is in the tendency to not see what is happening with a pregnancy as the nascence of potentiality itself: the growth of possibilities: a perfect symbol for the imagination itself.

Anyway, take what you will from that, but remember, I am still pro-choice and many people who I love and respect have had abortions.

now about that T-shirt: that T-shirt is an attempt at modifying other people. Pretend that it is not, but it sure isn't soley for the wearer's solitary pleasure: it is for other people . . . . it wouldn't make sense for them to only wear it while sleeping . . . so if they can wear it and tell me, proudly, that they had an abortion, then I can tell them that I think that their T-shirt is tastless.
I can tell them that they shouldn't be proud of it; that wearing that Tshirt is like smearing shiit on your face and saying proudly 'I smeared shiit on my face, so there'

[bunge]

Originally posted by pfflam
now about that T-shirt: that T-shirt is an attempt at modifying other people. Pretend that it is not, but it sure isn't soley for the wearer's solitary pleasure: it is for other people . . . . it wouldn't make sense for them to only wear it while sleeping . . . so if they can wear it and tell me, proudly, that they had an abortion, then I can tell them that I think that their T-shirt is tastless.
I can tell them that they shouldn't be proud of it; that wearing that Tshirt is like smearing shiit on your face and saying proudly 'I smeared shiit on my face, so there'

I couldn't disagree more. It's just as much a way to make the shirt wearer 'fit in' as it is anything else. If I've had an abortion, I shouldn't be ashamed. If you know it, I shouldn't be ashamed. I am still myself, and nothing you say or think can change it, for better or worse.

I think the problem here is that some of those here that are offended are egotistical. They can't see any potential benefit because they can't turn the tables and see themselves in a situation where they might need or want to wear that shirt.

Also, self-righteousness blinds some people here from understanding that the statement being made on the shirt is not necessarily based in pride, but possibly even in humility. You should reward humility, even condone it, but not ostracize it.

[pfflam]

Maybe some of 'us here' have been in that situation and find nothing to be proud of.

[bunge]

Originally posted by pfflam
Maybe some of 'us here' have been in that situation and find nothing to be proud of.

Hence the line about humility....

[pfflam]

Originally posted by bunge
Hence the line about humility.... That is not what the Tshirt is obviously designed to do. It is supposed to be about 'stopping shame' . . . . 'how dare our moralistic righteous culture make me feel bad for having an abortion' . . .that is absolutely 180 degrees from humility, and to pretend that that Tshirt is anything else is lying to yourself.

I can't help but think of all hte people who have undergone such experiences with pain and extreme ambivalence which vacillates from self-loathing only to conviction but never to pride, feeling very very offput and even slapped by such a cavaleir and trivial attitude to something so personal and life changing.

[bunge]

Originally posted by pfflam
That is not what the Tshirt is obviously designed to do.

I don't care what the t-shirt was designed to do in our opinions, it's why the person wears it that matters.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by bunge
I don't care what the t-shirt was designed to do in our opinions, it's why the person wears it that matters. So you're saying that a person wears this Tshirt, despite the fact that it is obviously about being proud of having an abortion, (or merely seeming proud), that it is like wearing a sign glorifying the fact because such a stance is contrary to idiotic ideas about pro-lifers (and some maybe not so idiotic ideas) you're saying that they wear it to feel secure or satisfied, to overcome possible bad feelings about their decision? They wear it to feel, in other words, proud of their decision?!

Everytime you put on a shirt with some sort of writing on it you are practically signing up for a uniformed position . . . especially now with the hipster trend of seemingly meaningless T-shirts from some unheard of camp in the 70s etc. You wear these things as a social tool, as a social relation, where you are opening up a 'discussion' by pre-emptively defining your position: ie: "I am into Heavy metal, don't you see my Pantera T-shirt?! and BTW don't mess with me."
If that is the case, -and it it is hardly debatable that clothes with signs on them serve that purpose- then that T-shirt broadcasts one thing -and anybody trying to wear it simply to feel better isn't helping themselves . . .
I gaurantee that every second that a person wears that T-shirt with other people around they are aware, on some level, of the pugilistic and purposely confrontational tone that the T-shirt carries, and, that they are self-concious about it. That kind of constant awareness can not be helping anybody feel good about their abortion. I can imagine it only as a burr under the skin, excacerbating the difficulty. . . . and for what . . some political positioning and self identifying?!

and IMO, if you 'feel good' about your abortion then you are a trivial, misguided, anemic soul that has never scratched even the surface of the question of their own being in the world.

[bunge]

My position is that the shirt is not by default 'proud' as you claim it to be. No offense, but you have to be narrow minded to limit your understanding in this way. You can't possibly know what the shirt means outside of the basic fact. Even that could be a lie. I'm considering the shirt and I'm male. If I'm wearing it, am I proud? That doesn't make sense. Should only females be allowed to wear it then? That makes even less sense.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by bunge
My position is that the shirt is not by default 'proud' as you claim it to be. No offense, but you have to be narrow minded to limit your understanding in this way. You can't possibly know what the shirt means outside of the basic fact. Even that could be a lie. I'm considering the shirt and I'm male. If I'm wearing it, am I proud? That doesn't make sense. Should only females be allowed to wear it then? That makes even less sense. You'd be wearing it in some sort of political positioning, or 'statement' making, and to me that is trite. it is willfully confrontational without regards to others who may not be so 'happy' about their decisions, happy enough for emblems, it trivializes the reality of the issue and also partakes of all of the above identity issues that I outlined in other posts with regard to egotism, fixed identity, etc.

Sure there are other possible reasons to wear it, all the ones that I can think of are ugly and insensitive: perhaps you would be a guy who thrives off of 'shocking' people and being rude? perhaps it would be out of "'solidarity' with those who have been forced to feel ashamed by our moralizing death-culture, duude!" who knows what other reasons . . . all I can think, in my 'limited understanding' is that it will come across as a slap in the face of 95 out of a hundred people who have thought or felt seriously through this situation: the other percentage, I would venture to say, are not thinking deeply enough about it to care either way . . . . or, probably like many here who would rather make some sort of psuedo-political position rhetorical mumbo jumbo and claim the shirt as victory for 'our-side', they care more about an ideology than the realities: hurt men and women who have to make horrible painful decisions and potentialities that are quashed, often due to a lack of imagination, and often out of real needs. Either way it is a tragedy not something to 'celebrate'.

[tonton]

Originally posted by pfflam
You'd be wearing it in some sort of political positioning, or 'statement' making, and to me that is trite. it is willfully confrontational without regards to others who may not be so 'happy' about their decisions, happy enough for emblems, it trivializes the reality of the issue and also partakes of all of the above identity issues that I outlined in other posts with regard to egotism, fixed identity, etc.

Sure there are other possible reasons to wear it, all the ones that I can think of are ugly and insensitive: perhaps you would be a guy who thrives off of 'shocking' people and being rude? perhaps it would be out of "'solidarity' with those who have been forced to feel ashamed by our moralizing death-culture, duude!" who knows what other reasons . . . all I can think, in my 'limited understanding' is that it will come across as a slap in the face of 95 out of a hundred people who have thought or felt seriously through this situation: the other percentage, I would venture to say, are not thinking deeply enough about it to care either way . . . . or, probably like many here who would rather make some sort of psuedo-political position rhetorical mumbo jumbo and claim the shirt as victory for 'our-side', they care more about an ideology than the realities: hurt men and women who have to make horrible painful decisions and potentialities that are quashed, often due to a lack of imagination, and often out of real needs. Either way it is a tragedy not something to 'celebrate'.

You don't understand. By telling people all the time (as you're doing now) how "horrible" and "tragic" and "shameful" is is to have had an aborion, you're making those who are trying to deal with it much less comfortable, and much more ashamed than they were to begin with. It's important to let people know that if they had an abortion than "that's all right". They should not feel shame. They should learn from their mistake and move on with their life. There's no room in someone's heart for the kind of guilt you're perpetuating. Let them forgive themselves. Let them know that life moves on. This is the feeling I get from the t-shirt.

[ShawnJ]

Spent the last few days working 10 hour shifts. I'll try to get to some of the other posts today or tomorrow. Pfflam, maybe you'd clear things up for me if you could address the literature supplied on the order page. :)

[bunge]

Originally posted by pfflam
You'd be wearing it in some sort of political positioning, or 'statement' making, and to me that is trite.

Planned Parenthood's purpose in selling this T-shirt was to remind everyone that abortion policy affects real people and that guaranteeing safe and legal abortion is critical to our rights and our health. The T-shirt helps to subvert the insidious silence that surrounds abortion and the shame that anti-choice extremists try to create around these personal choices and women who make them.

Planned Parenthood extends a special thanks to Jennifer Baumgardner...for bringing such an important conversation out of the shadows and into the forefront of social debate.

Doesn't sound trite to me.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by bunge
Doesn't sound trite to me. Sounds glib and 'well intentioned' . . . not like a T-shirt that says 'I got an abortion' -clever rationalizations from too much political ideology for something that comes across as rude and insensitive

[trumptman]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
Again, many women have positive experiences with abortion. For a little more literature on that note, read the following article in The Nation: We're Not Sorry, Charlie (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040202&s=baumgardner). Frankly, I don't blame them.

Actually this site could generate even more scorn for abortion. Do you think the majority of even pro-choice people think that having a three day procedure when you are over five months along is the same as getting a wart burned off?

Sassy (http://www.imnotsorry.net/sassy.htm)

The other thing is that site might be used to undermine support for contraceptive effectiveness since a large number of testimonials on there swear they were "not only on the pill but used a condom everytime" as well.

Nick

[pfflam]

Originally posted by tonton
You don't understand. By telling people all the time (as you're doing now) how "horrible" and "tragic" and "shameful" is is to have had an aborion, you're making those who are trying to deal with it much less comfortable, and much more ashamed than they were to begin with. It's important to let people know that if they had an abortion than "that's all right". They should not feel shame. They should learn from their mistake and move on with their life. There's no room in someone's heart for the kind of guilt you're perpetuating. Let them forgive themselves. Let them know that life moves on. This is the feeling I get from the t-shirt. I'm not perpetuating guilt, what I am doing here is responding to a sloganization of a complex and profound reality.

I wouldn't say the things I am saying beyond this thread, I WOULDN'T wear my thoughts as a slogan on a T-shirt . . . so, participate in this thread, and if you had an abortion, then read what I am saying and recognize that I understand the difficult and painful feelings of ambivalence that accompany the decision to abort . . . I recognize them and I don't think that they should go away, and I don't think that 'it is all alright' . . . perhaps we should hold onto the pain and remember the decision with a depth of feeling that is worthy of the magnitude of the decision . . .
not covering it over with a glib slick sloganism that is then justified by politically driven rhetoric.

Perhaps 'shameful' is not completely the right word . . . perhaps I should say that I would be disappointed if a person simply let go of the powerful difficulty of feelings that would, and IMO should, arise due to such a decision , if they simply said 'oh well. that's over-with . . . just another thing that was dealt with'. . . when it becomes something that is easy then I question your humanity . . All I want is for people to respect the issue with some depth not simply erase it as one would an inconvenience

This T-shirt is perfectly symbolic of our age: the reduction of all experience into a slogan, a sound-byte . . . gloss over difficulty with a bumper-sticker and a T-shirt and make it 'all go away'
and then, when asked to explain it, fill the void -left by the quick reduction- with a buncha catch term politicizing ideological-positioning mumbo jumbo . . .

[ShawnJ]

Again, can you specifically address the literature that accompanies the t-shirt on the order page? We realize your distaste for "catch term politicizing ideological-positioning mumbo jumbo" and "psuedo-political position rhetorical mumbo jumbo." I don't like the limited ways we seem to express ourselves either-- probably the result of a lack of imagination like you said. But I'd really like to read your thoughts on how the accompanying literature is an example of that (for one thing).