the plane that hit the pentagon, what really happened

[burningwheel]

this is VERY (http://pixla.px.cz/pentagon.swf) interesting

edit>link is a flash

[JimDreamworx]

Now why wouldn't Michael Moore do something like this in his movie?

[applenut]

Originally posted by burningwheel
this is VERY (http://pixla.px.cz/pentagon.swf) interesting

edit>link is a flash

no it isn't:no:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

[AirSluf]

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

[jwri004]

I wonder how this thread will pan out.....

:)

[FormerLurker]

Originally posted by jwri004
I wonder how this thread will pan out.....

:) Probably just as well as this (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=1682) one! :D

[jwri004]

I don't know if wretched is up for it. Who will play devils advocate?

:)

[groverat]

The question never answered by the conspiracy theorists... what happened to Flight 77?
If a Boeing 777 could not have done the damage, what "commuter" plane could have? Or military jet?
Was it a missile or a plane?

But it was in a Flash movie!

[MarcUK]

I dont buy this, but I cant help wonder where the the Wings went? I simply cannot see how they disappeared into the hole made by the fuselage.

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=106

http://www.scanair.no/typer/777-200-3view.jpg

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/images/commercial/777200-06.html

There is no fucking way the wings which measure about 27 metres (90feet) in each direction, folded themselves neatly up at 90 degress to go through the 7 metre (22 feet) hole the fuselage would punch.

Are there absolutely no videos/photos of the 777 approaching the pentagon.?

Eh? Why does the video keep refering to a 757?

[groverat]

There is no fucking way the wings which measure about 27 metres (90feet) in each direction, folded themselves neatly up at 90 degress to go through the 7 metre (22 feet) hole the fuselage would punch.

Why not?
I doubt the Boeing engineers were thinking wall penetration when designing those wings.

That's basically all the conspiracy has, the disbelief of people who don't have any idea what is and is not plausible when a Boeing777 hits a large building.

Incidentally, what did the wings do to the side of the WTC towers, which weren't as strong as the Pentagon walls?

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by groverat
Why not?
I doubt the Boeing engineers were thinking wall penetration when designing those wings.

That's basically all the conspiracy has, the disbelief of people who don't have any idea what is and is not plausible when a Boeing777 hits a large building.

Incidentally, what did the wings do to the side of the WTC towers, which weren't as strong as the Pentagon walls?

Yeah, but look at the size of the holes? Especially the ones with the firemen standing in them. There is no way those holes are large enough for the fuselage of a 757/777. The firemen could reach the top if they stood on toes.

If the fuselage did punch such a circular hole, where is the evidence of the holes made by the engines, if they travelled so far into the building.

Shouldn't this perfectly circular hole be elliptical at the very least, allowing for the fact that where the wings join the fuselage, is the thickest/strongest part of the wing.

The engines are pretty close to the fuselage - see schematics link. The hole should be at least 70 feet wide on the exterior edge of the pentagon, which it clearly is not.

I dont believe the fuselage would punch a neat hole of exact size, that the engines punched 2 holes of 5 feet diameter, 33 feet either side of this, but the wings folded up and went through an 8 foot hole leaving no evidence of thier impact, while the rest of the building between the 3 holes stayed perfectly intact. C'mon explain that too me?

[faust9]

Originally posted by MarcUK
I dont buy this, but I cant help wonder where the the Wings went? I simply cannot see how they disappeared into the hole made by the fuselage.

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=106

http://www.scanair.no/typer/777-200-3view.jpg

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/images/commercial/777200-06.html

There is no fucking way the wings which measure about 27 meters (90feet) in each direction, folded themselves neatly up at 90 degress to go through the 7 metre (22 feet) hole the fuselage would punch.

Are there absolutely no videos/photos of the 777 approaching the pentagon.?

Eh? Why does the video keep refering to a 757?

Ever seen a car accident? Door mirrors get damaged in many cases but remain attached to the car event in in violent crashes. There are a lot of cables, wires, and fuel lines running through the wings of an aircraft along with structural members which would easily cause disattached wings to stay with the aircraft.

Another point: look at the huge fireball. Missles do not make huge fireballs like that. The fireball is wasted energy unless the intent of the weapon is the fireball in which case the explosion would not have done that much damage.

Here, an example of flawed analysis: http://www.sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/1538140_comment.php

This analysis was done assuming the wings would stay intact. This is a very inaccurate scenario because aluminum is fairly brittle and clacks easily; however, steel plumbing and steel encased copper wires and steel cables are much stronger. Easily strong enough to pull two wings through a hole with them.

There's an internet video of a crab getting sucked into a tiny-tiny hole in an under ocean pipe. While it may seem impossible at first the reality is it happens. During car accidents, mirrors get crushed and knocked around but remain attach to the steel cable used to adjust the mirror.

Here is some proof against the missile strike idea: http://www.911-strike.com/engines.htm

And some more: http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

Here's that neat little hole that's been mentioned:

http://www.rense.com/general32/fuselagefragment_MVC-027S.jpg

Note the piece of debris center bottom of the picture. Looks like a pieces of fuselage to me.

Anyway, enough about this from me at least.

[faust9]

Originally posted by MarcUK
Yeah, but look at the size of the holes? Especially the ones with the firemen standing in them. There is no way those holes are large enough for the fuselage of a 757/777. The firemen could reach the top if they stood on toes.

If the fuselage did punch such a circular hole, where is the evidence of the holes made by the engines, if they travelled so far into the building.

Shouldn't this perfectly circular hole be elliptical at the very least, allowing for the fact that where the wings join the fuselage, is the thickest/strongest part of the wing.

The engines are pretty close to the fuselage - see schematics link. The hole should be at least 70 feet wide on the exterior edge of the pentagon, which it clearly is not.

I dont believe the fuselage would punch a neat hole of exact size, that the engines punched 2 holes of 5 feet diameter, 33 feet either side of this, but the wings folded up and went through an 8 foot hole leaving no evidence of thier impact, while the rest of the building between the 3 holes stayed perfectly intact. C'mon explain that too me?

One last response I guess...

The fuselage would be nothing more than a heap of shrapnel shooting through the building after the initial impact. Have you ever shot a 30-6 at an animal or watermelon? Small hole in bigger hole out. A moderate sized piece of debris--say a 100lb 4'x4' chunk initially traveling at 500+ MPH has a hell of a lot of momentum. Easily enough keep pounding through wall after wall leaving holes which appear small when compared to an aircraft fuselage but are the right size when looking at the actual size of the debris doing the damage.

[edit]found a good graphic

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/avion-incrustation.jpg

[Stoo]

Wasn't that graphics orignally intended to bolster the "where's the plane?" case? It seems that some of the consporacy theorists expect the aircraft to stop dead a few feet into the Pentagon and fall into chunks. Most of the peices of wreckage and fuel would be end up inside the building, carried there by their momentum.

[bunge]

Why don't they just release the films of the impact? The attacks on the WTC are widely available, why not these?

[bunge]

Originally posted by faust9
A moderate sized piece of debris--say a 100lb 4'x4' chunk initially traveling at 500+ MPH has a hell of a lot of momentum. Easily enough keep pounding through wall after wall leaving holes which appear small when compared to an aircraft fuselage but are the right size when looking at the actual size of the debris doing the damage.

Why was no evidence of the plane found in the building? And the fuel? The fuel is a huge question. People on the ground floor of the WTC towers were burned by the fuel that travelled 80+ floors down the elevator shafts. What would have happened on the ground at the Pentagon?

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by applenut
no it isn't:no:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm [/B]

The snopes.com story regurgitates the official version, and does not address so many unanswered questions. Why the questions? Because we have not been presented with any satisfactory explanations or answers. It's a simple as that, and no conspiracy theory is needed. A number of other inconsistencies with the Snopes story:

The ONE engine found in the Pentagon wreckage (talked about in that army link) was some 3 or 4 feet in diameter. whereas the TWO engines of a Boeing 757 are 9 feet in diameter.

Where is the heavy landing gear and undercarriage? If it was hot enough to obliterate all traces of the plane...seats, fuselage, engines, etc...how come enough DNA was discovered to identify all the passengers? Or was there no real DNA analysis?

Then there's the Snopes paragraph about the speculation that a smaller plane had hit the WTC as the external damage seemed inconsistent with a large commercial plane: This is nonsense...the entry holes in both WTC towers are an exact match for the height and wingspan of the planes comprising Flights 11 and 175.

How come the windows of the Pentagon at exactly the height of where the wings should have hit remained intact?

Some of those cable spools are in the flight path...according to the official version the plane flew a few feet above the ground, but the cable spools, standing taller than an average man, remain undamaged,

The sole 5 frames of security video released by the Pentagon "showing a plane" in the first frame and a developing fireball in the next 4 have a huge problem. The first frame has been titled by Pentagon as "Plane"...but no Boeing 757 is visible in that frame. A small tailplane (far smaller than a 757s), appears silhouetted against the horizon, but no fuselage is visible: the aircraft was small enough to be hidden by the object in the foreground....also the dates and timecode on the Pantagon frames refer to 12 September 2001 and the time was late afternoon. This is a problem in itself...re both the timestamp and the content. Has anyone heard of Adobe Photoshop?

Even while they were fighting the fire, there was a long line of dozens of Pentagon staffers repeatedly working their way from one end of that lawn to the other and back, removing and bagging debris, a flagrant violation of all standard police procedure for gathering evidence. It is ILLEGAL to tamper with or alter a crime scene.

there is far far more....

You cannot lump legitimate questioning with black helicopter territory, especially when there are so many questions to be answered....and not just with the Pentagon part of the event, but with *every* aspect of 911..including the status of a number of the apparent hijackers themselves (at least 6 have turned up alive!), there were no Arabs on the flight manifests, the way both towers collapsed, the bizarre collapse of WTC#7 a 47 story office block that owner Larry Silverstein authorized to be "pulled" (demolished), the fact that the USAF was stood down, the probabilty that Flight 93 was shot down (rather than was brought down by the heroic actions of passengers), ....and every aspect of the official version of 9-11....right down to the bin Laden "smoking gun" tape 'found' in Kandahar being a fraud....

[faust9]

Originally posted by bunge
Why was no evidence of the plane found in the building? And the fuel? The fuel is a huge question. People on the ground floor of the WTC towers were burned by the fuel that travelled 80+ floors down the elevator shafts. What would have happened on the ground at the Pentagon?

Did you look at any of the links in my first post? Debris was found. The pic in my first post shows a piece od fuselage. Aluminum burns like magnesium so much of the metal was destroyed. Molybdnum OTOH can withstand substantial temps which is why there was engine debris still present.

http://www.911-strike.com/trb.jpg

http://www.911-strike.com/engine_rotor.jpg

http://www.rense.com/general32/landinggear002.jpg

http://www.rense.com/general32/aedrive6.jpg

http://www.rense.com/general32/pentagonplanetire.jpg

[faust9]

Originally posted by sammi jo
The snopes.com story regurgitates the official version, and does not address so many unanswered questions. Why the questions? Because we have not been presented with any satisfactory explanations or answers. It's a simple as that, and no conspiracy theory is needed. A number of other inconsistencies with the Snopes story:

The ONE engine found in the Pentagon wreckage (talked about in that army link) was some 3 or 4 feet in diameter. whereas the TWO engines of a Boeing 757 are 9 feet in diameter.

Where is the heavy landing gear and undercarriage? If it was hot enough to obliterate all traces of the plane...seats, fuselage, engines, etc...how come enough DNA was discovered to identify all the passengers? Or was there no real DNA analysis?

Then there's the Snopes paragraph about the speculation that a smaller plane had hit the WTC as the external damage seemed inconsistent with a large commercial plane: This is nonsense...the entry holes in both WTC towers are an exact match for the height and wingspan of the planes comprising Flights 11 and 175.

How come the windows of the Pentagon at exactly the height of where the wings should have hit remained intact?

The sole 5 frames of security video released by the Pentagon "showing a plane" in the first frame and a developing fireball in the next 4 have a huge problem. The first frame has been titled by Pentagon as "Plane"...but no Boeing 757 is visible in that frame. A small tailplane (far smaller than a 757s), appears silhouetted against the horizon, but no fuselage is visible: the aircraft was small enough to be hidden by the object in the foreground....also the dates and timecode on the Pantagon frames refer to 12 September 2001 and the time was late afternoon. This is a problem in itself...re both the timestamp and the content. Has anyone heard of Adobe Photoshop?

Even while they were fighting the fire, there was a long line of dozens of Pentagon staffers repeatedly working their way from one end of that lawn to the other and back, removing and bagging debris, a flagrant violation of all standard police procedure for gathering evidence. It is ILLEGAL to tamper with or alter a crime scene.

there is far far more....

You cannot lump legitimate questioning with black helicopter territory, especially when there are so many questions to be answered....and not just with the Pentagon part of the event, but with *every* aspect of 911..including the status of a number of the apparent hijackers themselves (at least 6 have turned up alive!), there were no Arabs on the flight manifests, the way both towers collapsed, the bizarre collapse of WTC#7 a 47 story office block that owner Larry Silverstein authorized to be "pulled" (demolished), the fact that the USAF was stood down, the probabilty that Flight 93 was shot down (rather than was brought down by the heroic actions of passengers), ....and every aspect of the official version of 9-11....right down to the bin Laden "smoking gun" tape 'found' in Kandahar being a fraud....

The engine are not 9' in diameter. The outer housing(aluminum) may be, however, the gas turbine is not that large. Take some engineering classes... Materials, Dynamics, even Engineering Physids... You'll see your concerns are not well placed in this instance. It was a plane. It was a large plane that struck the pentagon. It was a fast moving plane that struck the pentagon. 500+ MPH is faster than most cameras can clearly record.

Recording rate: 32 frames/sec.

Speed of plane: 777.33 feet/sec

feet coverd per frame: 24...

No wonder the plane is blury.

[iPoster]

Originally posted by faust9
Another point: look at the huge fireball. Missles do not make huge fireballs like that. The fireball is wasted energy unless the intent of the weapon is the fireball in which case the explosion would not have done that much damage.

Here, an example of flawed analysis: http://www.sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/1538140_comment.php

This analysis was done assuming the wings would stay intact. This is a very inaccurate scenario because aluminum is fairly brittle and clacks easily; however, steel plumbing and steel encased copper wires and steel cables are much stronger. Easily strong enough to pull two wings through a hole with them.

IRT the fireball, ever heard of a Fuel/Air bomb?
Fuel Air Explosive (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm)

IRT to the wings, show me one plane crash where the wings folded back along the fuseloge instead of shearing off. If you look at the WTC footage, there are clearly oblong holes made by the fuseloge and wings. The buildings are even of similar construction, stone/concrete backed by substantial steel reinforcement. Granted, the Pentagon is somewhat 'tougher' than the WTC, but the wings should have done something to the outside of the wall.

I am not sold on the bomb/missle theory myself, but personally I believe we don't know everything about 9/11 either. An attack by Muslim Terrorists is the most likely cause, but there are many questions unanswered. Apparently 7 of the terrorists are still alive, the video with Bin Laden claiming responsibility is a fake, there is no record of any phone calls made from the "Let's roll" Pensylvania flight, etc, etc...

If I had to guess given the information presented here, as far as not being an airplane, I would say shaped charge warheads(make nice round holes) to breach the outer wall, followed closely by an FAE to cause the fireball/explosion.

And IIRC, the flight in question was a 757, not 777?

As an aside, I have an uncle who's been flying Boeings for AA his whole adult life, and he says he would have had high difficulty flying the high speed/nap of earth flight profile (to stay off the radar) taken by the 9/11 aircraft. So we're supposed to believe some guys with a few hours in Cessnas flew that day? These are huge, heavy, cumbersome aircraft, not military jets that routinely do things like that. Try it in a good PC/Mac flight simulator program sometime and see what I mean.

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by faust9
[B]Did you look at any of the links in my first post? Debris was found. The pic in my first post shows a piece od fuselage. Aluminum burns like magnesium so much of the metal was destroyed. Molybdnum OTOH can withstand substantial temps which is why there was engine debris still present.

Those parts look like airplane wreckage for sure but there is a lack of reference in (most of) these pictures to verify both the scale and location of the wreckage. Where did the pictures come from? In any investigation, all side have to be held to the same standard.

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by faust9
The engine are not 9' in diameter. The outer housing(aluminum) may be, however, the gas turbine is not that large. Take some engineering classes... Materials, Dynamics, even Engineering Physids... You'll see your concerns are not well placed in this instance. It was a plane. It was a large plane that struck the pentagon. It was a fast moving plane that struck the pentagon. 500+ MPH is faster than most cameras can clearly record.

Recording rate: 32 frames/sec.

Speed of plane: 777.33 feet/sec

feet coverd per frame: 24...

No wonder the plane is blury.

Fair enough...I must have been referring to the outer casings. But when it comes down to the chase, these details are almost beside the point.

There are tapes being withheld from public scrutiny. How many we dont know...but one from the gas station, another from the hotel and an unknown number from Pentagon security cams. That is at least 3.

We can speculate for ever ad infinitum, but the matter will never be satisfactority settled until:.....

Message to the FBI and the Pentagon and any other paranoid Govt. agencies who are hiding vital evidence: Give it up, what are you scared of? These tapes will either flatten the conspiracists at a single stroke and settle the matter once and for all....or show something that is inconsistent with a Boeing 757. Its as simple as that.

Why the balking?????? That is the question.

[MarcUK]

[edit]Came to senses!

[AirSluf]

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

[bunge]

Why don't they just release the films of the impact? The attacks on the WTC are widely available, why not these?

[bunge]

Why was no evidence of the plane found in the building? And the fuel? The fuel is a huge question. People on the ground floor of the WTC towers were burned by the fuel that travelled 80+ floors down the elevator shafts. What would have happened on the ground at the Pentagon?

[johnq]

Originally posted by AirSluf

You have been hereby nominated as a lifetime member of the Lone Gunmen!:lol:

*cough* The Lone Gunmen pilot *cough*

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by AirSluf
Gotta love Sammi! Never met a fact or detail she let get in the way of her conspiracy theories!:lol:

You have been hereby nominated as a lifetime member of the Lone Gunmen!:lol:

As I suggested earlier....if you didnt read, or didnt want to:
The FBI and the Pentagon have video-tapes of the Flight 77 event that could bury the conspiracy theories. If they have nothing to hide, then lets see those damned tapes!!!! The American people have seen Flights 11 and 175 slamming into the WTC more times than is countable....so we can handle it. Show us the tapes and demonstrate to us the damned truth, and let the speculation stop once and for always. If the tapes all concur and show a United Airlines 757 slamming into the side of the Pentagon, then so be it...the matter is over and settled for good, and the skeptics and conspiracy theorists would be silenced.

Can anyone suggest a valid and defensible reason why both the Pentagon and the FBI (and whatever other agency have a video record) refuse to show these tapes publicly??? After all....if they did, won't we see a large, commercial airplane with United Airlines colors flying close to the ground in an area to which the public has 24/7 visual access?...so invoking "national security considerations" as an excuse would be irrelevant and 100% non-credible.

[AirSluf]

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

[AirSluf]

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by AirSluf
http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~maxwell/misc/tinfoil.jpg

I know that's not you sammi. But the hat's resemblance is striking!:p

Oh dear, here we go again. Yawn. Let me hold your hand and try one more time OK:
(1) A conspiracy is "an agreement between two or more individuals to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.'
(2) A theory is (in this context), "an assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture".
(3) 9-11 was a conspiracy...nobody will argue against that, as a plan as complex as that requires large number personnel to execute it.
(4) The Government's explanation is a conspiracy theory. It has some facts to back it up, but there are too many holes, too many contradictions, too many impossibilities and too many unanswered questions to assign a QED to it.
(5) There are other conspiracy theories out there, (such as the "Operation Pearl" scenario) which has been tailored to fit the facts and timeline, but leaves another bunch of questions unanswered. Similarly with other conspiracy theories.
(6) The conspiracy theory that gets the most "credibility" is the one that gets the exposure. In this case, the Government's version was up and running as soon as the event happened. The national and world media took that ball and ran with it, while confusion and chaos reigned. Gradually, upon examination, other possibilities reared their heads.....
(7) Whichever explanation that has been repeated and repeated ad infinitum, in this case the Government version (despite its own weaknesses, combined with the lack of knowledge of the event amongst the public), is the one which eventually assumes the mantle of truth in the individual and collective psyche.
(8.) Alternative explanations therefore, regardless of merit, assume mantle of non-credibility.

To express skepticism when reasonable doubt exists is in my view rational. To express blind faith and ignore facts is....irrational. Tinfoil hats are not required, or inappropriate. I have offered no alternative explanation.... The friends and relatives of those who died that morning deserve nothing but the truth from their government...not a half baked story couched in paranoia, unnecessary secrecy, silence, balking of inquiries, and even outright lies. As of yet, these people have been roundly denied their simple and most deserved request. If I was a close relative of one of those who were murdered...I know I would feel at least as angry.

That is what is pissing me off.

:mad:

[drewprops]

What a strange, strange life some people lead....

This is but an example of our human tendency to create explanations for things we cannot understand. If SJO and Bunge took Faust up on his suggestion to study particle physics. If they studied the burn rates of jet fuel, paid ATTENTION to the fact that a fire burned for 12 hours and REALIZED that reality can often defy our expectations with astonishing alternatives, they might understand why some of us "so blindly" follow the "official" story.

But none of you are going to change each others' minds (well one mind was changed), so this is just head-butting at this point.

[iPoster]

Originally posted by AirSluf
Ummm, a fire that burned too hot to approach with manned hose teams for about 12 hours??? JP doesn't burn hot enough to fuse anything, just melt metal.

You're right about that. I love how the plane was supposedley shredded going throught the building, and the 'fire' was hot enought to melt something like 99% of the airframe, but they were able to recover enough remains to identify almost everyone with DNA??:lol: :no: :rolleyes:

[bunge]

Originally posted by AirSluf
Ummm, a fire that burned too hot to approach with manned hose teams for about 12 hours??? JP doesn't burn hot enough to fuse anything, just melt metal.

What's JP?

[bunge]

Why don't they just release the films of the impact? The attacks on the WTC are widely available, why not these?

[bunge]

Originally posted by drewprops
This is but an example of our human tendency to create explanations for things we cannot understand. If SJO and Bunge took Faust up on his suggestion to study particle physics. If they studied the burn rates of jet fuel, paid ATTENTION to the fact that a fire burned for 12 hours and REALIZED that reality can often defy our expectations with astonishing alternatives, they might understand why some of us "so blindly" follow the "official" story.

But none of you are going to change each others' minds (well one mind was changed), so this is just head-butting at this point.

See, now you're just being a dick. I'm asking some realistic questions because I'm genuinely curious. I didn't bother to read this thread at first because I thought it was silly, and when I finally looked I saw that circular hole and it was intriguing.

Regardless of what hit the Pentagon, I want to know why the fuck my government took those tapes and isn't willing to release them to the public. If that doesn't bother you then you have a larger problem than the one you're imposing on me.

[bunge]

Originally posted by AirSluf
Ummm, a fire that burned too hot to approach with manned hose teams for about 12 hours???

Let's compare the images of the Pentagon to the World Trade Center towers. If the fuel in the towers could travel down 80+ floors I would personally expect a much larger fire at the Pentagon. 80+ floors is a large area, even if it's concentrated in a 10'x20' elevator shaft.

Can anyone estimate the scale of the explosions on the outside of the buildings for the different crashes? The footage we have of the Pentagon shows a fireball that's taller than the Pentagon itself, but I don't know how many floors the explosion covered at the WTC.

Now it could have simply been that the plane that hit it didn't have as much fuel in it. Or it could be something else.

[johnq]

Originally posted by bunge
What's JP?

What would you think it means? Hint: AirSluf is some sort of Brit/Aussie/NZ/whatever...based on cursory reading of a handful of his posts.










(mue)lortep tej

[bunge]

Originally posted by johnq
What would you think it means?

In context I figured it was Jet Fuel, but why the hell would it be capitalized and abbreviated? And without punctuation?

[johnq]

Originally posted by bunge
In context I figured it was Jet Fuel, but why the hell would it be capitalized and abbreviated? And without punctuation?


http://www.bp.com/images/bp-logo.gif

No punctuation? No idea why... :D probably like us saying SJ for Steve Jobs....do you really use punctuation for abbreviations that religiously?

Caps? not sure...Probably IM's fault....OMG ROTFL etc...

[bunge]

Originally posted by johnq
http://www.bp.com/images/bp-logo.gif

No punctuation? No idea why... :D probably like us saying SJ for Steve Jobs....do you really use punctuation for abbreviations that religiously?

No, but when communicating it's usually better to communicate accurately. Steve Jobs is a known quantity on these boards.

[faust9]

Originally posted by AirSluf
Ummm, a fire that burned too hot to approach with manned hose teams for about 12 hours??? JP doesn't burn hot enough to fuse anything, just melt metal.

Sure it does--especially when burning in an oven like environment. Jet Propulsion (JP) fuel burning on a runway gets hot enough to melt aluminum. Now fire it up inside a concrete container filled with wood and paper and you have yourself one hot fire. The WTC showed us that when burned in a confined environment that A-1 does in fact burn hot enough to soften Iron girders.

I'm not saying all of the Aluminum burned only some of it. Most of the plane wreckage was turned to shrapnel upon impact IMHO. I'll use a car analogy again: Have you ever seen what happens to a car traveling 90MPH when it crashes or have you ever seen an Indy/Nascar high speed crash? These crashes are relatively low speed when compared to 500MPH. Now add in the fact that airplanes are not designed to withstand the kind a lateral forces flight 77 was subjected to when it rammed headlong into a concrete wall.

Something y'all should take into account is that this accident had a known cause. This was not a typical airline accident where all of the debris must be gathered and sifted through to determine why the plane crashed. They/we knew why it crashed. Because of that the need to meticulously gather all of the plane fragments was lessened. There was no need to reconstruct the engines and airframe to determine the cause of failure so they didn't. The wreckage was sifted through and the human remains gathered. The rest was simply scooped up and trucked away.

Note--JP is Jet Fuel as already stated. There are a few variants such as JP-5 (Navy is the primary user of this) JP-8 (Airforce uses this) and A-1 or Jet-A is the commercial blend. Basically it's all Kerosene with a few other trace ingredients such as Naphtha.

As to why the videos have not been released: Why show terrorist exactly how this was done? The NY attack was too public to keep under wraps. The videos where on TV before the Military knew what was happening (or so it seems). NY is too populated to keep something like that under wraps. The Pentagon OTOH is a lot more isolated. Its easier to keep the details hidden so that terrorist can't take notes and say "you know we could've done more damage if we hit at such height at x speed at some angles yaw and pitch". Why give more information than necessary?

[sammi jo]

One of the most telling points in this thread so far is how those who accuse anyone doubting that the official version represents the sum of reality re. 9-11, have consistently refused to, or are unable to offer a sensible explanation as to why our government would refuse to release multiple tapes of an event involving a national carrier's aircraft hitting a publicly funded building. Long sentence, phew.

What is best? Blind faith, or absolute proof? Secrecy or openness?

[faust9]

Originally posted by sammi jo
One of the most telling points in this thread so far is how those who accuse anyone doubting that the official version represents the sum of reality re. 9-11, have consistently refused to, or are unable to offer a sensible explanation as to why our government would refuse to release multiple tapes of an event involving a national carrier's aircraft hitting a publicly funded building. Long sentence, phew.

What is best? Blind faith, or absolute proof? Secrecy or openness?

I gave you a reasonable reason. Read my post directly above yours.

[bunge]

Originally posted by faust9
I gave you a reasonable reason. Read my post directly above yours.

Unfortunately I don't think that either you or I really believe that answer though. Footage from a gas station isn't going to help anyone crash a plane any better. I think we all need a better response than that.

And the Pentagon isn't isolated in the least. Have you ever driven around it? I don't know where you live or if you have ever visited D.C.

My best guess at this point in time is that the footage would be evidence towards the fact that Bush seriously screwed up on that day.

[Placebo]

Intriguing...

[curiousuburb]

There have been some test crashes of planes into the type of reinforced concrete structures that the nuclear industry uses for reactor containment buildings and certain other 'hardened' structures. I recall seeing video of one such crash from 1988 (http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,364320,00.html), but am still googling the actual vidclip.

IIRC, that '88 test was a modified F4 or F104 on a rocket sled driven into the structure faster than any of the 9/11 impacts, and the plane was absolutely shredded... even the engines were in pieces. The structure was barely scuffed.

Studies since 9/11 (http://www.nei.org/documents/EPRINuclearPlantStructuralStudy200212.pdf.) reference similar science.

[neutrino23]

I've barely followed this but I have a question. If flight 77 did not hit the pentagon then what happened to it and the people that were on board?

[faust9]

Originally posted by neutrino23
I've barely followed this but I have a question. If flight 77 did not hit the pentagon then what happened to it and the people that were on board?

Ever see close encounters?:)

[AirSluf]

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

[AirSluf]

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

[AirSluf]

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.


As for fuel dripping down stairwells and elevator shafts, sure, but when you are already on the ground floor, you just make icky burning muck with no more downward room to go.

As for fireball size, it would seem reasonable that the Pentagon would generate a larger fireball for the same amount of fuel on board. Just because the WTC is all glass and fuel will act like a near solid at those velocities so much of it will carry into the structure. Solid limestone walls will resist fuel penetration somewhat where there aren't already holes or windows, making more splatter and more fireball because of it.

[johnq]

Originally posted by AirSluf
Spent some time there, but semi-regular use of down under terminology is a less than accurate way to determine location or nationality. :)


Sure but good enough to know u meant jet petroleum of some sort... ;) I only needed less-than-accurate accuracy :D

If a person says "y'all" etc. and if they said they like eating at G&G every morning, I'll assume you're talking about grits n' gravy and are some sort of southerner in the U.S...would I be wrong? Sure, if the person is a Russian with a southern affectation :D ...but not that they meant grits 'n' gravy ;)

Hardly an indictment of who you are as a person ;) Your real identity is still safe ;)

[AirSluf]

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

[johnq]

Remember that very few planes crash head on into a hardened structure, most crash dropping vertically onto belly, side or upside down, so the impact is wide and the debris has a chance to spread out everywhere as does the fuel which is less focussed in its burn.

Some others rip apart pre-crash.

This one is nose first, super fast into something far stronger than the relatively brittle WTC facade (brittle laterally!). These steel beams already are bearing enormous vertical weight. This makes them very brittle from side damage.

Pentagon was a more solid object. The fuel all propelled forward with the entirety of the plane, most of which is aluminum and burns very easily and quickly. There's not all that much steel in planes. Aluminum and composites.

I buy the the majority was swallowed up into the face (the large hole that the water obscures) and it is obvious that there was a large hole there since the collapse literally points to that hole. It all slides down sloping to the left since nothing was supporting it.

Look at how cars crumple down to nothing in impacts. Look at how the WTC planes were consumed immediately in impact.

As much as I'd love for there to be a Bush-sponsored/Israeli supported plan to have the U.S. be attacked Reichstag-style so that he can rise to power (massive EYEROLL) I doubt it. We can have all kinds of fun with that idea. No need to make the Pentagon attack be a fake for that to be true.

I just think a jetliner indeed hit the Pentagon. With people on it. Hijacked by Islamic radicals.

You can then proceed to cobble all kinds of conspiracy theories based on that all you want. :D

[neutrino23]

Minor point. Aluminum does burn but it does not generate gas. When wood burns it largely turns into carbon dioxide, a gas, which is carried away in the air. When aluminum burns it forms aluminum oxide which is a refractory material. It doesn't even melt till extremely high temperatures. The point is that even if the aluminum burned it would leave a large pile of ash.

A second point to consider, airplanes are very large but they are mostly composed of empty space. They are not built heavy like buildings.

[Vox Barbara]

Originally posted by bunge
Why don't they just release the films of the impact? The attacks on the WTC are widely available, why not these?

I always asked myself that question. I think the answer is quite simple: protection. And this is very legitimate imo.

No conspiracy at all.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
I always asked myself that question. I think the answer is quite simple: protection. And this is very legitimate imo.

No conspiracy at all.

Crap answer. There is no protection. NOT releasing the films is as dangerous as releasing them. As much as the terrorists might learn, we all might learn more to protect ourselves.

Your answer is no answer at all.

[drewprops]

What, praytell, could you possibly learn from that video that would help protect yourself from having a jetliner unexpectedly slammed into your office building?

::best Foghorn Leghorn accent::

I demand, I say, I demand an INVESTIGATION!!!

:rolleyes:

[johnq]

It's all part of a secret 10 year plan to have the Pentagon entirely rebuilt...4 sides to go...

I'd laugh if it wasn't so serious and probably true.

Who has the list of contractors involved in the rebuilding? Are they publicly held?

[bunge]

Originally posted by drewprops
What, praytell, could you possibly learn from that video that would help protect yourself from having a jetliner unexpectedly slammed into your office building?

What the hell could you learn about flying a plane from watching the video?

Shortly after the beginning of the war in Afghanistan one of Osama's videos was released on TV. The US government was unhappy that network TV was spreading his words. In the video though, he was seen in front of some rock. A geologist watching the news recognized the type of rock and the fact that it was only located in one specific and small region of Afghanistan so he alerted the authorities. Ultimately the US was able to find the location, unfortunately too late. But it's one less place Osama can hide and one of the many videos the US government would have elected to keep private.

[johnq]

Originally posted by bunge
A geologist watching the news recognized the type of rock and the fact that it was only located in one specific and small region of Afghanistan

...

But it's one less place Osama can hide and one of the many videos the US government would have elected to keep private.

Oh the irony...

Reminds me of an old riddle...

If a video is kept secret by the Pentagon, will a geologist be able to see it on the news and recognize the fact that the rock behind Osama Bin Laden was only located in one specific and small region of Afghanistan?

In this case the government is like Microsoft, closed, proprietary. Who knows if geologists within the CIA/etc. would have done any better. Sometimes outside help is far better, as is the case with many open source projects. That the government dragged it's feet enough to miss him is sad...

[Ra]

This guy spent way too much time on this: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

But he makes a good argument.