(Further) Through the looking glass...

[segovius]

This one should jam a few right-wingers apparatus, or short-circuit it a bit more anyway- it seems that the only people working actively for the UK hostage Ken Bigley's release are muslims and a man detained without trial or rights on suspicion of belonging to al-Qaeda (http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3542507) .

Now either he is al Qaeda or he isn't. If he isn't then the UK has held a man for three years falsely without any rights or representation - if he is, then we have an al-Qaeda operative not behaving in the stereotypical 'evil™' mode and begging for the life of a hostage.

All while Blair and Straw shamelessly pontificate and bluster on TV about how they 'will not give in' (ie - we will let this man die for our political stance).

The innocent man/evil terrorist (delete according to bias) who is being held in a mental hospital (another twist - either he's insane or 'evil') was arrested within 24 hours of 9/11 and has been held ever since without any reason being given. Nevertheless he asked the group to release Bigley and said to the hostage takers:

I am a Palestinian prisoner. I have been tortured by the Israelis. I have been held for 3 years under unjust laws in England. I know what it is like to suffer inustice so I ask you to release Ken Bigley.

Meanwhile Britain has ruled out any negotiations or discussions with the kidnappers.

Looks like Mr Bigley's hopes of survival lie with 'al Qaeda' and not the US or UK.

[Stoo]

Are you being (partly) facetious, or do you not recognize that dealing with kidnappers/terrorists through offical channels gives them credibility and encourages them?

[segovius]

Originally posted by Stoo
Are you being (partly) facetious, or do you not recognize that dealing with kidnappers/terrorists through offical channels gives them credibility and encourages them?

Well, I'm not being facetious....

[Stoo]

Sorry about being condescending. My point is that the UK government's policy has long been that they do not negotiate with terrorists, so it's hardly surprisingly official negotiations have been ruled out. It seems that personal appeals are Mr Bigley's best hope.

Anyway, holding someone for three years under New Terror Lawsâ„¢ (what else?) without any progress is a bit off.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Stoo
Sorry about being condescending. My point is that the UK government's policy has long been that they do not negotiate with terrorists, so it's hardly surprisingly official negotiations have been ruled out. It seems that personal appeals are Mr Bigley's best hope.

Anyway, holding someone for three years under New Terror Lawsâ„¢ (what else?) without any progress is a bit off.

Yeah but the point is that they do negotiate with terrorists - they just say they don't (ie lie) for public consumption and they do it anyway - in secret.

And guess what ? It saves lives.

Look at Thatcher's (genuine) refusal to negotiate with the IRA - hundreds dead.

Major's government started negotiations in secret (and Blair wheeled out Clinton when all the hard work had been done). Result: cease fire, virtual peace - hundreds (thousands ?) of lives saved.

So my point is not the policy - it is that they are patronising the voters. They think we can't handle the truth. Or maybe something worse.

Whatever they say they are negotiating now. Or trying to.

They can't admit it because it would interfere with their portraying the 'enemy' as 'evil' and themselves as whiter than white.

[Stoo]

The Northern Ireland situation is not directly analogous to present day Iraq. The NI peace process was between political parties and representatives, rather than the government speaking directly to terrorists. As far as I know, Iraq doesn't have (m)any political parties, let alone ones with a degree of control over numerous terrorist groups or an official (and recognised as legitimate) forum for political discussion. Northern Ireland during The Troubles was much more stable than Iraq's current state and the peace process still took decades to get the parties to the table.

Whay are you so sure that the UK government is holding secret negotiations when your previous examples are 50/50 (Thatcher/Major) and relate to a different situation?

[bunge]

Originally posted by Stoo
The Northern Ireland situation is not directly analogous to present day Iraq. The NI peace process was between political parties and representatives, rather than the government speaking directly to terrorists.

Hamas is a political entity.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Stoo
Whay are you so sure that the UK government is holding secret negotiations when your previous examples are 50/50 (Thatcher/Major) and relate to a different situation?

Because Blair is an opportunist politician - and worse, an opportunist politician in deep doo doo.

If he can pull Bigley out of the hat then he will be crowing form here to Armageddon in the usual misguided bid to 'carve his place in history'.

There's nothing that he'd like more than to take the credit for 'saving a brit' from the barbarians.

He's just spent so much time hammering home that they [i[are[/i] barbarians (we never used to actually hear that word on the news till now did we ?) and conversely, that he is the polar opposite and never the twain shall meet, that he can't be seen doing it.

Btw - a significant amount of the Iraq religious factions and insurrectionists are political entities.

I'm in Edinburgh too now - it's kind of cold isn't it ?

[Stoo]

If he can pull Bigley out of the hat then he will be crowing form here to Armageddon in the usual misguided bid to 'carve his place in history'.

I'd be surprised if Blair took direct credit, but I would expect some official comment if Bigley is freed. Hopefully we'll get the chance to see whether or not Blair basks.

Yes, Edinburgh is rather cold and wet. Not the ideal time to take a week holiday and not go anywhere.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Stoo
I'd be surprised if Blair took direct credit, but I would expect some official comment if Bigley is freed. Hopefully we'll get the chance to see whether or not Blair basks.

Yes, Edinburgh is rather cold and wet. Not the ideal time to take a week holiday and not go anywhere.

Wish I was on holiday, relocated but it's ok.

Even Bigley's brother is now blasting Blair for doing nothing. It's actually a bad situation for Blair - much worse than it appears imo.

If Bigley is killed he will take a backlash - public sympathy will be with the family and they are against Blair.

If he is released then the 'terrorists' don't look so bad after all and it will be the efforts of ordinary citizens like Yusuf Islam and others who did it. Blair can't win.

This is the sort of political and psychological trap that Blair/Bush continually walk into - even Saddam could play them like a violin. The question is an anomalous one and very strange to anyone who bothers to think about it: how is it that we in the west with all our 'sophistication' cannot understand the eastern mind and culture yet these 'evil barbarians' have a penetrating grasp of western politics, diplomatic practice and psychology that matches (and frequently outwits) our own best minds in this field ?

Why do you think that is ? How did they grasp the intricacies of our cultural mindset so completely ? Or is it merely that our glorious leaders are just more mind-bogglingly inept than even the most raucous malcontents among us could ever possibly imagine ?

[segovius]

Update: so the Italian hostages have been released.

And the Italian government negotiated the release. So is Blair wrong or is he lying when he says you can't negotiate because it doesn't work ?

Clearly it does.

And as a by the by (as they say) I have just been listening to one of the released hostages, she says (and this is a quote) that she was treated with "dignity, respect and humility".

And then they let her go after engaging in negotiations.

Meanwhile Blair refuses to enter discussion with the "evil Barbarians" and unlike the Italians appears happy to see one of his citizens heading to a gruesome death without lifting a finger to help.

Barbarism seems contagious.

[Stoo]

(It is my duty as Devil's Advocate to point out that) It appears that the groups in these cases are different (Italian women: Jihad Organisation,Tawhid and Jihad (led by al-Zarqawi): Bigley). I'd doubt that they have the same MO, motives, issues and flexibilities. I'd also expect that some kidnappings are actually just organised criminals in it for some loot (whether the rumours of the 1M€ ransom are true or not).
Does anyone have any details on Iraqi hostages/criminal kidnappings?

It seems that Blair has commented on the case: Blair Would Respond 'Immediately' If Kidnappers Made Contact (http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3563525). No clue as to what the government would do if the kidnappers contacted them, though.

And as a by the by (as they say) I have just been listening to one of the released hostages, she says (and this is a quote) that she was treated with "dignity, respect and humility".

And then they let her go after engaging in negotiations.

Lovely. Ignoring the deprivation of freedom and fear of death, of course. Perhaps they were lucky and got the "good" kidnappers?

[segovius]

Originally posted by Stoo
Lovely. Ignoring the deprivation of freedom and fear of death, of course. Perhaps they were lucky and got the "good" kidnappers?

Good point, I suppose we can't take the word of the actual hostage herself for anything - and you must bear in mind that we cannot expect these savages to possess anything approaching the olympian standards of civilized treatment that we in the west dispense to our detainees in luxurious flagship establishments such as Abu Ghraib and Gitmo so really you're not comparing like with like.