The First Debate

[Aquatic]

Wow. Bush has done WAY worse than I thought he would. Stuttering, stumbling, trying to look convincing (like he always does, squinting, pursing his lips) and faking looking sad about sending soldiers to die. I don't know how the GOP can spin his win but I'm sure they'll try.

Kerry was good, but needs energy. Edwards would whoop his ass...sigh...

I like this one: Bush goes "the only thing consistent in my opponent is that he keeps changing his positions."

[madmax559]

um is it my perception or does bush come across
as really really arrogant ?

[Outsider]

He also comes of as stubborn when he speaks of his Iraq strategy.

[madmax559]

Originally posted by Outsider
He also comes of as stubborn when he speaks of his Iraq strategy.

i think you mean petulant

[shetline]

I'm sure a lot of pundits will somehow manage to spin this debate as a Bush win... but I don't know how.

By any objective standards, Kerry is whipping Bush's ass! Kerry sounds prepared and in charge, very presidential, and has solid arguments to make.

Bush is stumbling, bumbling, and sounds about as prepared as a high school kid who forgot to do his homework and got called on unexpectedly in class. His responses aren't amounting to much more than a half-dozen or so pre-memorized talking points and jibes that he can't even remember very well.

[Aquatic]

Both. He is the worst: arrogant and ignorant. I've noticed they often go hand in hand. Sort of like the high-horse dumbass "conservatives" around here.

[faust9]

Bush keeps singing the same song too. Kerry has laid out Bush's failings--about 20 of them so far--while Bush has be-bopped the Flip-flop line. Oh, remember, we didn't join the world court fella's.

[Aquatic]

Nukeyular.

[Aquatic]

I had to admit I was getting nervous, I thought he'd be slick. He's not. Only blind sheep would take him seriously in this debate. He is not doing well.

[Outsider]

Originally posted by madmax559
i think you mean petulant not yet but give him time.

[madmax559]

how did this guy become prez much less a govenor ?

[Aquatic]

"...uh uh I just know how this world works."

Just like the conservative idiots on this board, full of unqualified one-liners that are just BS.

[faust9]

Originally posted by Aquatic
"...uh uh I just know how this world works."

Just like the conservative idiots on this board, full of unqualified one-liners that are just BS.

:lol:

[bunge]

I actually think Bush is much better now than he was 4 years ago. He is making a lot of stupid mistakes as I would expect, but he seems to have learned the ability to actually respond to comments made by his opponent during the actual debate. He couldn't do that 4 years ago.

[rageous]

WAY too many "it's tough" and "mixed message"s from Bush. Stop repeating them fr God's sake!

I find Bush's performance to be lacking, but I also have found both guys to be wothout the real substance I had hoped for, but not expected.

All in all it's going as I figured.

15 minutes to go...

[Northgate]

Anybody want to take any bets that the post-debate spin over the next two weeks will be conjecture about what happened to Kerry's orange tan? It's be called Makeupgate!

I wouldn't put it past Ed Gillespie.

[faust9]

Talking about N. Korea and Bush brings up Saddam!!! Idiot.

[Northgate]

Has anybody else noticed that Bush's camera never shakes, never moves, is always rock solid. Kerry's camera seems to have a case of the shakes. Plus the camera is constantly being raised, lowered, bouncing.

Fox?

[BRussell]

Originally posted by rageous
WAY too many "it's tough" and "mixed message"s from Bush. Yeah but he kept calling them "mexed missages."

[steve666]

Kerry smoked Bush. I was surprised at how pathetic Bush looked and sounded.

Kerry did quite well.

Kerry is mostly too liberal for me, but on foreign policy he wins over Bush. Now, lets see about Domestic. If he tries to out-hispander Bush in terms of an illegal alien amnesty and not cutting back legal immigration he will also be off my radar.

So as for now I will never pull the lever for Bush.
Whether I pull it for Kerry is still up in the air.

[Wrong Robot]

I don't think Bush understood the concept of kerry being against how bush has handled things. Every time kerry made that point bush said "but you supported them in the first place"

[Fellowship]

Bush lost the debate.

Bush failed.

Kerry spoke very well and I will most likely support Kerry in November.

Fellowship

[trumptman]

Originally posted by Northgate
Anybody want to take any bets that the post-debate spin over the next two weeks will be conjecture about what happened to Kerry's orange tan? It's be called Makeupgate!

I wouldn't put it past Ed Gillespie.

Actually Kerry tried with his usual spin to criticize from all sides and ended up sounding like an idiot.

For example he criticizes the President for using Afghan troops to pursue Osama instead of our own. (Called it outsourcing) Then he claims he basically wants to outsource the war on Iraq by using Iraqi troops along with the troops of allies, while bring our own troops home.

I mean are we really going to believe that Afghan warlords are bad, but somehow Iraqi warlords are going to be good for us with regard to pursuing and ending terrorism?

The point is pursuing and ending terrorism is going to eventually be done with the various trained troops within these self-governing countries. However Kerry again shows how he can't really build up and instead must rip or tear down. Allies we have are the coalition of the bribed, those who didn't come along will under him, even while the say they won't. Troops who assist our troops are untrained warlords, who he will be glad to use just as soon as he is in office. Prime ministers in these countries are puppets. Treaties, like Kyoto, which Kerry voted against are signs that we have lost respect in the world.

Not a bit of it convincing.

Nick

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by trumptman
Actually Kerry tried with his usual spin to criticize from all sides and ended up sounding like an idiot.

For example he criticizes the President for using Afghan troops to pursue Osama instead of our own. (Called it outsourcing) Then he claims he basically wants to outsource the war on Iraq by using Iraqi troops along with the troops of allies, while bring our own troops home.

I mean are we really going to believe that Afghan warlords are bad, but somehow Iraqi warlords are going to be good for us with regard to pursuing and ending terrorism?

The point is pursuing and ending terrorism is going to eventually be done with the various trained troops within these self-governing countries. However Kerry again shows how he can't really build up and instead must rip or tear down. Allies we have are the coalition of the bribed, those who didn't come along will under him, even while the say they won't. Troops who assist our troops are untrained warlords, who he will be glad to use just as soon as he is in office. Prime ministers in these countries are puppets. Treaties, like Kyoto, which Kerry voted against are signs that we have lost respect in the world.

Not a bit of it convincing.

Nick

AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA:D

YOU WERE FUCKING OWNED!

[faust9]

Originally posted by trumptman
Actually Kerry tried with his usual spin to criticize from all sides and ended up sounding like an idiot.

For example he criticizes the President for using Afghan troops to pursue Osama instead of our own. (Called it outsourcing) Then he claims he basically wants to outsource the war on Iraq by using Iraqi troops along with the troops of allies, while bring our own troops home.

I mean are we really going to believe that Afghan warlords are bad, but somehow Iraqi warlords are going to be good for us with regard to pursuing and ending terrorism?

The point is pursuing and ending terrorism is going to eventually be done with the various trained troops within these self-governing countries. However Kerry again shows how he can't really build up and instead must rip or tear down. Allies we have are the coalition of the bribed, those who didn't come along will under him, even while the say they won't. Troops who assist our troops are untrained warlords, who he will be glad to use just as soon as he is in office. Prime ministers in these countries are puppets. Treaties, like Kyoto, which Kerry voted against are signs that we have lost respect in the world.

Not a bit of it convincing.

Nick http://www.lds-mormon.com/blinder2.jpg

[spindler]

I don't know whether Bush or Kerry won the debate, but I think Kerry won the swing votes.

You're either voting Bush or not Bush. Kerry presented a strong enough image to vote for. He got lots of little jabs in and Bush wasn't his usual cocky self. Bush seemed overly upset and not calm and collected. So if they appeared as equals or near equals, that's good enough for you to vote for Kerry if you have doubts about Bush. He was much stronger than he appears in the newspapers.

[steve666]

>For example he criticizes the President for using Afghan troops to pursue Osama instead of our own. (Called it outsourcing) Then he claims he basically wants to outsource the war on Iraq by using Iraqi troops<

You need to look up the word OUTsource. Iraqi soldiers happen to be in........Iraq

[giant]

Originally uttered by Bush
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 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[Outsider]

Originally posted by steve666
>For example he criticizes the President for using Afghan troops to pursue Osama instead of our own. (Called it outsourcing) Then he claims he basically wants to outsource the war on Iraq by using Iraqi troops<

You need to look up the word OUTsource. Iraqi soldiers happen to be in........Iraq You mean.... we're... not taking over Iraq??

[steve666]

Originally posted by giant


You left out the silent pause before that

[faust9]

Call me kooky but when they showed Bush during the split screens while Kerry was speaking he looked like this:

http://www.whatsthefuss.com/turtle.jpg

to me.

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by steve666
You left out the silent pause before that

and stamping fists on the desk

FOUR MORE WEEKS! FOUR MORE WEEKS! FOUR MORE WEEKS! FOUR MORE WEEKS!

[steve666]

Originally posted by MarcUK
and stamping fists on the desk

And Deer caught in the headlights stare

[sammi jo]

Debate! if the word has ever sunk to a new low, we had it here tonight. The questions were pre-screened, soft-soapers...and both parties avoided the really gnarly issues.

The debate was quite even....neither party smoked the other.

The most noticeable thing was the lighting. If any of you noticed, the lighting on Bush was soft and golden, and Kerry looked harsh and grayed out. Or was it the makeup job?

[MarcUK]

I think the lack of Scott, SDW, Naples, etc here at the moment is very telling.

Even the ignorants know when they're owned.

Run and hide mofo's

"Your world is crumbling"

[Placebo]

Originally posted by MarcUK
I think the lack of Scott, SDW, Naples, etc here at the moment is very telling.

Beat me to it.:p

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by sammi jo
The questions were pre-screened, soft-soapers...

Yet Bush couldn't even speak properly.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by MarcUK
I think the lack of Scott, SDW, Naples, etc here at the moment is very telling.

Even the ignorants know when they're owned.

Run and hide mofo's

"Your world is crumbling"

I think that there are so many people here right now in the first place is also very telling. :lol:

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by MarcUK
I think the lack of Scott, SDW, Naples, etc here at the moment is very telling.

Even the ignorants know when they're owned.

Run and hide mofo's

"Your world is crumbling"

Watching the debate again on video, I reckon Kerry had a small edge. But it's not going to make much of a difference re. the election, which is what counts. Its almoist a certainty that it's going to be Bush for another 4 years, not that I look forward to that outcome.

[rok]

anyone catch the daily show's review of the debate? i mean, clark and guiliani sure had different views on how the debate went, huh?

p.s. if the democratic election crew has two licks of sense among them, they had better have picked up on one crucial detail:

bush does not like to be told he is wrong to his own face. you can see it gets under his skin quickly, and the role of the challenger to an incumbent is to say that the current direction is wrong, so george had better get a thicker skin FAST. i see the democrats seeing a seam in the armor and hitting it for all they're worth now.

[MarcUK]

I predict the next Gallup poll will have Bush on a 20 point lead.:D

[Moogs]

I predict that anyone who still defends and supports Bush after that performance (on the ONLY topic with which is supposedly strong), needs a CAT-scan.

To defend that is to be in complete denial about this man's thinking capacity, communications ability and ability to accurately assess complex questions and problems.

My 14 year old nephew has more insight and intelligent things to say about foreign policy than George W. Bush. Who by the way, was obviously coached to repeat the same meaningless chants, over and over and OVER when he was stumped by any question given to him.

What a tool. I don't know how the hell any thinking person can vote for this guy. Seriously. It's like "Wellll, I know he's not the smartest or the best, but I really did enjoy that tax cut."

Pathetic.

[rok]

Originally posted by Wrong Robot
I don't think Bush understood the concept of kerry being against how bush has handled things. Every time kerry made that point bush said "but you supported them in the first place"

the entire bush crew probably pushed him out on stage whispering "go get him! remember, bring up flip-flopping as often as possible!!!"

[faust9]

Transcript (http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040930/NEWS09/40930003)

[rageous]

Yeah it seemed that way about the flip-flopping. Bush was careful not to use that term, but he might as well have with as many times as he harped on it.

I really got the impression Bush simply ran out of things to talk about in the final 1/3 of the debate. And the fact that foreign policy was to be his strong suit, he could be in for major trouble in the next two debates.

[steve666]

Originally posted by sammi jo
Watching the debate again on video, I reckon Kerry had a small edge. But it's not going to make much of a difference re. the election, which is what counts. Its almoist a certainty that it's going to be Bush for another 4 years, not that I look forward to that outcome.

He had a huge edge. Im hardly a Democrat sympathizer but Kerry came across as more intelligent, thoightful, and Presidential.
Bush looked like an idiot, way out of his league to be President of anything.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by faust9
Transcript (http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040930/NEWS09/40930003)
Thanks, is there a recording available anywheres?

[ipodandimac]

Originally posted by Northgate
Has anybody else noticed that Bush's camera never shakes, never moves, is always rock solid. Kerry's camera seems to have a case of the shakes. Plus the camera is constantly being raised, lowered, bouncing.

Fox?
Bad cameraman or a lens that doesnt have image stabilization.

[rageous]

I had the debate on two TVs in my living room, one on CNN and one on FOX, to try and compare the different broadcasts.

I have to say I didn't notice any of the camera shaking that's been brought up, but that could be entirely due to the fact that I wasn't focused on one channel the whole time.

[Anders]

Originally posted by Placebo
Thanks, is there a recording available anywheres?

C-span is airing it continuously right now.

[giant]

I noticed the camera go out of focus a couple of times, but it happened with both candidates. You'd think that the #1 cable news station would be able to focus cameras on near-stationary points, but apparently not.

[Anders]

This is not important and doesn´t show how good a president Bush is and should not be used in the campaign. But:

Mexed missages

;)

[burningwheel]

bush was a babbling idiot. it was kinda sad. don't like bush but i'm not sure i can bring myself to vote for kerry. may not vote...

[Moogs]

OMG. Say it ain't so!

Kerry is not the ideal candidate but he is SO much better prepared (mentally and otherwise) to do this job well it's not even funny. Vote Kerry for God's sake! Maybe if some respectable member of the GOP were running against him I'd agree with you but COMMON.

;)

[Gilsch]

The way Bush was twitching after almost every Kerry closing comment was pretty telling. Bush looked defeated, scared, unsure of himself AND his policies...he had that "shit I don't think people are buying my rosey world scenario bullshit anymore" look.


And what the heck is up with having to READ what to say time and time again? That was ridiculously lame.

[shetline]

I have to say, I'm relieved that the worst of my cynical fears regarding how this debate would be spun by the media haven't come to pass so far, and I can't see how the spin is going to turn pro-Bush anywhere but on Fox News.

Over the next few days, I think were going to be hearing phrases like, "In the first debate, which is generally being regarded as a win for Kerry...".

Of course, what I'd really like to be hearing more of is "John Kerry hit one out of the ballpark!", which is how I feel about it, but I suppose that's hoping for too much and projecting my own views too much.

I get the impression that the Democratic spinmeisters brought out to comment for the Kerry side had been coached beforehand to be politely controlled no matter how much they personally felt Kerry had won, because if I'd been asked, I'd have had a hard time not loudly crowing that Bush had been owned. The would-be President came off very presidential -- knowledgeable, controlled, calm, strong -- while the actual President was unsure, uncomfortable, terribly lacking in specifics, and about as presidential as the losing side of an unprepared high school debate team.

Think of the fact Bush's people spent days coaching and rehearsing Bush for this debate. From the way his performance went, I'll guess that the rehearsals ended up going something like this: "Look, Dubya's just not going to be able to get all this prep material down. Let's just stick to a handful of tried-and-true stump speech lines, a couple of generic fallback phrases like 'we're workin' hard on that', get Dubya to memorize those, and hope he can pull the right stock phrases out at the right times with a little folksy charm thrown in."

And then, after all that debate prep work, Bush couldn't manage to do anything but bumble and burble through his small stockpile of pre-chewed replies, obviously having a hard time during those long, awkward silences and "err, ums" while he was trying to figure out which of his pre-packaged answers he was supposed to use, and struggling to remember just how the wording went.

I just wish there was a TV commentator who the guts to call it like I saw it, saying that Bush's performance was "truly pathetic".

[faust9]

Originally posted by Gilsch
And what the heck is up with having to READ what to say time and time again? That was ridiculously lame.

What do you mean?

[pfflam]

I only saw the last part of the debate.

it seemed to me that Kerry won.

However, if I were inclined to believe at all costs in Bush's 'message' then I understand how it would appear that Bush won.

Generally, though Kerry re-introduced himself to the 'people' and gave a statesman-like and poised performance, whereas Bush seemed to have only 'consistency' where what he is being consistent with is the last four years.

I think the coup for Kerry was the moment when Kerry all but created a new "Issue" that the Bush administration has failed on . . . namely the irradication of old nuclear stocks in Russia.

The one place where Bush has a pressure point is when he brings up the possibility that critiquing the war is NOT supporting the troops . . .

But you can weigh the respective strengths on the depths of those two issues: nuclear remnants floating around, vs, mexed missages.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by faust9
What do you mean? Faust, I was referring to Bush having to pause, cluelessly, to FIND and read a talking point directly. LIke a kid who gets lost during reading class. It was pathetic.

My 9 year old nephew who has no clue about politics said something like "hah, he's reading big time" . lol...I kid you not.

[faust9]

What was up with Poland BTW? "...Britain then Poland but to be fair Costa Rica put us on the do not call list."(Stewart stoner laureate).

[faust9]

Originally posted by Gilsch
Faust, I was referring to Bush having to pause, cluelessly, to FIND and read a talking point directly. LIke a kid who gets lost during reading class. It was pathetic.

My 9 year old nephew who has no clue about politics said something like "hah, he's reading big time" . lol...I kid you not.

I didn't know what you refering to. Kerry had the intelligence to take notes throughout the entire debate--and used them-- in order to counter Bush's arguments in a clear concise method. Go figure. Bush OTH wrote down the talking points as soon as he could and just kept rehashing them over and over.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by faust9
I didn't know what you refering to. Kerry had the intelligence to take notes throughout the entire debate--and used them-- in order to counter Bush's arguments in a clear concise method. Go figure. Bush OTH wrote down the talking points as soon as he could and just kept rehashing them over and over.

Not just the hand written notes. Bush obviously had talking points he needed to find and blatantly READ from a few times. It thought that was really sad.

[giant]

Originally posted by steve666
You left out the silent pause before that
Point taken.
Originally posted by Bush








































*chirp, chirp*










































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[faust9]

Originally posted by rok
anyone catch the daily show's review of the debate? i mean, clark and guiliani sure had different views on how the debate went, huh?

p.s. if the democratic election crew has two licks of sense among them, they had better have picked up on one crucial detail:

bush does not like to be told he is wrong to his own face. you can see it gets under his skin quickly, and the role of the challenger to an incumbent is to say that the current direction is wrong, so george had better get a thicker skin FAST. i see the democrats seeing a seam in the armor and hitting it for all they're worth now.

Rudy is a total shill!!! I just saw it and man did Guiliani dodge--Stewart called him on it though and it was funny. Catch is at 7PM tomorrow on Comedy Central and be counted as an educated stoner.

[giant]

Yeah, I saw that, too.

[curiousuburb]

Perhaps crucial for those who only watch the one debate...
or those who take my copywriting or professional practice classes.

Kerry asked for the opportunity to lead blah <transcript has full version of long phrase>
Bush explicitly said "I ask for your vote".

So while Bush didn't use his time well, seemed off topic and repetitive and generally showed less substance in his closing statement than Kerry, he would get bonus points for explicitly asking for the desired behaviour.

Kerry scored a few points but also missed a few opportunities to score more.

Bush seemed mostly repeated platitudes and pouty attitudes (no wonder the republicans wanted the two shots banned) and "I know how the world works" defensiveness, but he remembered to ask for the vote straight up.

Kerry better learn that one, but otherwise he seemed far more presidential.

[johnq]

Wow what an all-out failure for Bush. A t-o-t-a-l collapse. HE SUCKED. It was awesome to watch, yet painful (that this cretin is in fact, in charge). Kerry scored major points with me and my crowd (as opposed to merely being the lesser evil)

Bush was EMBARRASING. (Moreso than usual)

Kerry was dignified and suitably incredulous at this baboon.

Can't wait for the next two debates.

BTW, I'm a civilian, I have no requirement to be civil or respectful to Bush. You want respect, you earn it.

[pfflam]

Guiliani gave a speech here in Wisconsin the other day where he was riffing on the fact that Kerry didn't know all the players on the Boston Red Sox . . . the man seriously, and I mean he was serious, said that the fact that Kerry didn't know the players was a sign that kerry was not 'real' . . . was not a 'real' genuine down-to earth person for knowing sports figures from his home town . . .I mean he went off on him because of this, using it as a reason to slander Kerry

and after saying that Kerry's character is not 'real', not a 'genuine' forthright character because he doesn't know the players for the team , he said that it is absolutely important in a time of war to have a 'real' person leading us . . .

so, to lead in a time of war one must know their baseball players.

:wow: :mad:

It was one of the most absolutely unbelievably stupid things I have ever heard in politics

supposedly many people in the audience got up and walked out after he said that

[Frank777]

I would say the debate won't change the minds of those who follow politics and have a preferred "team". There was no "knockout" from either side.

Kerry came off the better of the two, but that's to be expected. If you can't come off as a better public speaker than Bush, stop wasting everyone's time.

Bush's lack of eloquence actually works in his favour at times, since it clicks with regular people. I don't know middle America well enough to say if that will work this time.

BTW, are some of you (presumably undecideds) really going to decide your vote on the FIRST debate when there are two others left? That's odd.

Is the next one where they debate the "lockbox" :lol:
I sincerely hope those rules they agreed on banned the use of that word.

[rageous]

Originally posted by Frank777
BTW, are some of you (presumably undecideds) really going to decide your vote on the FIRST debate when there are two others left? That's odd.

There's only two undecided people who post here. And my margin of error is -2.

[shetline]

National Review's very pro-Bush Jay Nordlinger calls it, though he can barely bring himself to have to say it, a big win for Kerry:

Don’t Shoot the Messenger... 'cause this assessment's grim. (http://www.nationalreview.com/nordlinger/nordlinger200410010114.asp)

[talksense101]

I went through the transcript. I haven't seen the video so I have missed out the body-language.

Bush is using the F.U.D. tactic and he thinks he is going to win for some reason. :err: He is not addressing the concerns raised by Kerry. He is trying to play with words just to make Kerry look bad.

Kerry is making half-baked promises as all politicians do before an election. At least the thought process is in the right direction. Six months for a Iraq pull out is bull shit. But hey, a Iraq pull out is better than GWB's perenial presence in Iraq even if happens after a year.

[Moogs]

The only accurate transcript (the one with all the mispoken words and akward shit) is at NYT.com. But no transcript does it justice. You have to see it to know how bad Bush really was.

[faust9]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-01-battleground-debate_x.htm

USA Today asks some undecided voters their view of the debate. Looks good for Kerry.

MSNBC's poll http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/#survey

Enjoy

[Ra]

Originally posted by talksense101
Six months for a Iraq pull out is bull shit Bush called Kerry out on this one, and then Kerry's explanation was something along the lines of, "I never said we'd be out in six months. What I said is that if things go according to my plan, we get other nations in there [blah blah, etc...], then in six months we can begin to pull troops out and gradually reduce our numbers in Iraq."

[Towel]

Originally posted by Ra
Bush called Kerry out on this one, and then Kerry's explanation was something along the lines of, "I never said we'd be out in six months. What I said is that if things go according to my plan, we get other nations in there [blah blah, etc...], then in six months we can begin to pull troops out and gradually reduce our numbers in Iraq." I think what you meant to say is that Bush trotted out another lie, trying to put words into Kerry's mouth that he didn't say. Kerry then called him on it, in what I thought was his most devastating reposte of the night. He began by restating his actual words - that, if we follow his plan, we could start to reduce troop numbers in six months. He then wove that into the larger point that we can't win the war if Iraqis and Arabs think we're there to conquer - taking a potshot at the President for giving the impression we were there for the oil, and planned to stay forever. To paraphrase, we can only convince Iraqis to fight for their country - we'll never convince them to fight for us. Most significantly, he explicitly pledged that we had no long-term designs on Iraq, and that we would not base significant numbers of troops there indefinitely. That was a major policy statment, and GWB, given the chance to rebutt it, choose not to.

Aw, heck, since that was my favorite bit (apart from the line about learning not to try to put leashes on his kids), it's worth posting in full. The body language was great, too, which the transcript obviously doesn't capture.The timeline that I've set out, and again, I want to correct the president because he's misled again this evening on what I've said. I didn't say I would bring troops out in six months. I said if we do the things that I've set out and we are successful we could begin to draw the troops down in six months.

And I think a critical component of success in Iraq is being able to convince the Iraqis and the Arab world that the United States doesn't have long-term designs on it. As I understand it we're building some 14 military bases there now. And some people say they've got a rather permanent concept to them.

When you guard the oil ministry but you don't guard the nuclear facilities the message to a lot of people is maybe well, maybe they're interested in our oil.

Now the problem is that they didn't think these things through properly. And these are the things you have to think through. What I want to do is change the dynamics on the ground. And you have to do that by beginning to not back off of Fallujah and other places and send the wrong message to the terrorists. You have to close the borders. You've got to show you're serious in that regard. But you've also go to show that you're prepared to bring the rest of the world in and share the stakes.

I will make a flat statement. The United States of America has no long-term designs on staying in Iraq. And our goal in my administration would be to get all of the troops out of there with the minimal amount you need for training and logistics as we do in some other countries in the world after a war to be able to sustain the peace.

But that's how we're going to win the peace. By rapidly training the Iraqis themselves. Even the administration has admitted they haven't done the training. Because they came back to Congress a few weeks ago and asked for a complete reprogramming of the money. Now what greater admission is there, 16 months afterwards, oops, we haven't done the job. We've got to start to spend the money now. Will you guys give us permission to shift it over into training?

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by Anders
Mexed missages

;)

I'm glad someone else caught that. My friends and I were having a good laugh at that one. The fact he was talking about not sending mixed messages and managed to mess up those words was priceless.

[G2G]

Well I think being the Pres is hard work ....and it's tough....X6...WOW what a good debate....Bush had so much to say ...uh I mean what did he say again?????....Kerry looked an acted very tough...they need to hammmer em oh so hard for the next 30 days or so..

[shetline]

I love the smell of post-debate coverage in the morning... :D

[rok]

Originally posted by Frank777
BTW, are some of you (presumably undecideds) really going to decide your vote on the FIRST debate when there are two others left? That's odd.

i think that, for many undecideds, they definitely do not want to vote for bush. however, the media and spin-machine have constantly made them doubt their support for kerry. they were desperate to see ANYthign smacking of professional steadfastness that the bush team says he doesn't have.

last night may have been all they needed.

[MarcUK]

Seems like the Political Outsider 'GOP' diehards have gone 'Missing in Action'

Follow in the footsteps boys!

[notaclone]

Spaghetti Western Extra versus a Real Leader

When I hear Bush speak, I feel like I'm watching a spaghetti western: he is reading from a script in a language he doesn't understand. As soon as he strays from the script, or forgets his lines (or how to pronounce them), he reveals himself to be the mindless parrot he is.

And as far as Kerry flip-flopping? He evaluates new data and revises his analysis to take into account a broader range of knowledge. Lord I hope my doctor uses that same level of wisdom when he tells me what to do with this bottle of Vioxx.

Choose wisely.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by notaclone
Spaghetti Western Extra versus a Real Leader

When I hear Bush speak, I feel like I'm watching a spaghetti western: he is reading from a script in a language he doesn't understand. As soon as he strays from the script, or forgets his lines (or how to pronounce them), he reveals himself to be the mindless parrot he is.

And as far as Kerry flip-flopping? He evaluates new data and revises his analysis to take into account a broader range of knowledge. Lord I hope my doctor uses that same level of wisdom when he tells me what to do with this bottle of Vioxx.

Choose wisely.

I just love your post here.

You hit it.

Fellows

[dmz]

*rips self-imposed duct tape from mouth*


Shocking! I CAN"T believe GWB is inarticulate at times, just SHOCKING -- and in public too. I think this has got to be the first time this has been brought up on these forums. Time-sensitive information, indeed.

I didn't watch the debate, but it is riveting to watch this forum fall to the same death as nearly all others that dicuss GWB even tangentially.


Parrot.
Dunce.
Greedy Cracker.

Kerry? What's the choice? Rich or Richer?


Well, folks, (you Americans rather) wake up, put down the prescription meds, and slide the frisbee back under the couch -- because the two candidate are not addressing ANYTHING that really matters in America's future. Their respective parties and other power brokers simply want control to the White House, and giving you a Dog and Pony Show in return. Let's review:

Instead of government we had a stage. Instead of ideas, a prima donna's rage!! Instead of help, we were given a crowd. [They] didn't say much but [they] said it loud.



One way or another, Iraq will solve itself, Kerry's being on all sides of the issue, and GWB on only one side, nothwithstanding. Iraq is a done deal, crying over it will not improve math socres in America, nor will it address the fact that Social Security is almost broke, and that America, without substantial immigration, can't maintian the stable increase in population growth needed to support the Baby Boomers that are, even now, beginning to retire en mass. Health care costs? What health care costs? Nursing shortage? What nursing shortage---hey, isn't Fear Factor on?

--hell, maybe you guys should pull that frisbee back out.

[jamac]

Whaht Buish relly sid:
"I wnat nucular war :D It's haerd wrork end funn"

Sad reality:
Saddam, Osama, vegetables, slugs and sea urchins are smarter than Bush.

Students across all states are extremely anti Bush, indeed there are no republican voter registrations on campuses. Everybody with just a small amount of education and brain has to be anti Bush after this debate. Bush is STUPID!!!!!!!!

Or maybe I am too stupid to fully understand his superior intelligence. It's hard work to be that stupid, showing intelligence and knowledge sends mixed messages to our uneducated youth.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by notaclone
Spaghetti Western Extra versus a Real Leader

When I hear Bush speak, I feel like I'm watching a spaghetti western: he is reading from a script in a language he doesn't understand. As soon as he strays from the script, or forgets his lines (or how to pronounce them), he reveals himself to be the mindless parrot he is.

And as far as Kerry flip-flopping? He evaluates new data and revises his analysis to take into account a broader range of knowledge. Lord I hope my doctor uses that same level of wisdom when he tells me what to do with this bottle of Vioxx.

Choose wisely.

Kerry does flip-flop. Even during the debate he proposed both bilateral and multilateral talks with North Korea AT THE SAME TIME.

He chastized Bush for using our allies with North Korea and chastized him for using Afghan troops in Afghanistan. Then proposes exactly the same thing as a better solution in Iraq. It isn't even different factors that leads to these different actions, it is nothing but the politics of convenience. He may have said this nonsense more clearly, and looked more rested, but the reality is that when people look at the actual statements and policies surrounding themm the result is almost always bad for Democrats. This is why the results may start out strong for the instant response, but as time goes on, and something besides the thinking of how tanned someone is, or whether he slotched kicks in, the result is always worse for Democrats.

I can love the look of the car. I can love the smell of the car. I can enjoy the test drive. However it is when the numbers are sitting on the table that the thought process kicks in.

Here is a perfect example of something that probably sounded great and was well delivered but the ramifications behind it are terrible and terrifying.


KERRY: The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

No president, though all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you‘re doing what you‘re doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons. ...

BUSH: Let me—I‘m not exactly sure what you mean, “passes the global test,” you take preemptive action if you pass a global test.

My attitude is you take preemptive action in order to protect the American people, that you act in order to make this country secure.

Hey, if we can convince the world, then it is okay to actually protect the United States, but if they don't buy into it.... well I guess that is just too bad for us.

Nick

[applenut]

Originally posted by jamac
Whaht Buish relly sid:
"I wnat nucular war :D It's haerd wrork end funn"

Sad reality:
Saddam, Osama, vegetables, slugs and sea urchins are smarter than Bush.

Students across all states are extremely anti Bush, indeed there are no republican voter registrations on campuses. Everybody with just a small amount of education and brain has to be anti Bush after this debate. Bush is STUPID!!!!!!!!

Or maybe I am too stupid to fully understand his superior intelligence. It's hard work to be that stupid, showing intelligence and knowledge sends mixed messages to our uneducated youth.

"From: California"

enough said

[rok]

Originally posted by applenut
"From: California"

enough said

two words: arnold schwarzenneggar

:)

[pfflam]

Originally posted by dmz
*rips self-imposed duct tape from mouth*

Doesn't it even raise one iota of self-reflection to have just come onto a thread about the debates, immediately taken a stance that is tantamount to critiquing Kerry's presentation (with a pslight pretence towards also critiquing Bush) and THEN admitting that you didn't EVEN WATCH THE DEBATES-?!?!?!?!?

How do you know that Kerry did not address "anything that mattered"?

I think maybe you should crawl back under that rock now . . .

[pfflam]

Originally posted by trumptman
Kerry does flip-flop. Even during the debate he proposed both bilateral and multilateral talks with North Korea AT THE SAME TIME. I don't remeber that

But, I wouldn't say that it is impossible . . . . and not even a bad idea . . .
in fact, it is a rather good idea.
More talks . . . we talk with NK about everything that is a real issue with regards to them and SK and the world
and then
Get this one Trumpt . . . let's see if its possible
We also have a 6-way talk that includes other nations, such as China

Seems to me that China would want to be in on talks in some capacity, while at the same time not being bogged down with the minutia of dealing with DMZ issues and repatriations and SK visitor rights issues . . .

hmmmm?!?!

Seems like you don't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by trumptman
chastized Bush for using our allies with North Korea and chastized him for using Afghan troops in Afghanistan. Then proposes exactly the same thing as a better solution in Iraq. It isn't even different factors that leads to these different actions, it is nothing but the politics of convenience. No, politics of convineience is using ragged bands of near thugs to do our mountain fghting for us . . . hell, the people are fondly reffered to as "Warlords"!!
As far as NK, he was chastizing Bush for breaking off relations then much later, after it was revealed that Bush's 'hard-line' stance (which, unfortunately, sounds good and tough, but is really just stupid) pushed them further into developing weapons, he opened multilateral discussion

Weren't you paying attention to the crisis in NK?!

Don't you remember the length of time when Bush was playing some strange Fantasy Poker Hold-Em and refusing to even acknowledge NK, and even went as far as humilating envoys that were supposed to come for talks?
What were you doing during that time?
practicing scales on the trombone?

Originally posted by trumptman
He may have said this nonsense more clearly, and looked more rested, but the reality is that when people look at the actual statements and policies surrounding themm the result is almost always bad for Democrats. This is why the results may start out strong for the instant response, but as time goes on, and something besides the thinking of how tanned someone is, or whether he slotched kicks in, the result is always worse for Democrats. I will attemnpt to translate this:
Just because Kerry looked and sounded better and did a better job doesn't mean that I won't spend the next two weeks trolling freeper sites and Hard-core NeoCon blogs that will tell me how good Bush was and reinforce my forgone-at-all-costs-conclusions about the minor-diety-known-as-GWB

Originally posted by trumptman
Hey, if we can convince the world, then it is okay to actually protect the United States, but if they don't buy into it.... well I guess that is just too bad for us.

Nick You know what, when I heard Kerry say that and Bush's retort, I knew one thing . . . I said to myself, the GOP will use that against Kerry (in the manner which Trumpt just did) BUT that is all that it reveals . . . kerry left himself open to a rhetorical trick . . . it means nothing and you know it . .
You post it as some kind of problem with Kerry, but it isn't at all, it is only a chance for you to swing that dead-cat rhetorical malarky . . .

The difference between being diplomatic and open to a world of other nations, working alongside and with and sometimes against
and being beholden to them for your own pretection is night-and-day
and if you believe that Kerry intends the latter than you are willfully believing lies.
How could a man who has pledged to strenthen, both physically and strategically, the US military be giving away the control of the government

That is an empty GOP 'principle' issue . . . its like allegience based on voice and posture . . .

[Ra]

Originally posted by dmz
I didn't watch the debate [...] Well, folks, (you Americans rather) wake up, put down the prescription meds, and slide the frisbee back under the couch -- because the two candidate are not addressing ANYTHING that really matters in America's future.
If you didn't watch the debate, then how in the hell do you know what the candidates did or did not address??? Kerry addressed a hell of a lot that matters to our future. Watch the debate.
Kerry's being on all sides of the issue, and GWB on only one side, nothwithstanding. Iraq is a done deal, crying over it will not improve math socres in America
Simply not true. Watch the debate. Here, it's on the C-Span front page: http://www.c-span.org/

[Ra]

Originally posted by trumptman
Kerry does flip-flop. Even during the debate he proposed both bilateral and multilateral talks with North Korea AT THE SAME TIME.
How is that a flip-flop? The both aren't mutually exclusive... you can have multilateral and bilateral talks at the same time. He even said it would work because China has a big interest in North Korea, and so resuming bilateral talks wouldn't make them pull out, because regardless, they have a big interest in North Korea.

He chastized Bush for using our allies with North Korea and chastized him for using Afghan troops in Afghanistan. Then proposes exactly the same thing as a better solution in Iraq.
Wrong, he chastised Bush for ending the bilateral talks with North Korea, not for using our allies. Afghanistan: our troops should be going after Al Queda, not the Afghan troops who were on the other side of the fence just a little while before. And it is a better solution for Iraq - we made the wrong choice in going to Iraq how we did, and now it's a mess. Bringing in our allies will only help to improve the Iraq fiasco.

[shetline]

Originally posted by trumptman
Kerry does flip-flop. Even during the debate he proposed both bilateral and multilateral talks with North Korea AT THE SAME TIME.
You seem to be laboring under the false assumption that it's not possible to have bilateral and multilateral talks at the same time. Oddly enough, China, one of the participants in the current multilateral talks, has been trying to convince Bush to enter bilateral negotiations.

Now, maybe such simulataneous negotiations would be impossible for Bush to grasp and deal with, but we can solve that little stumbling block easily enough.

He chastized Bush for using our allies with North Korea and chastized him for using Afghan troops in Afghanistan. Then proposes exactly the same thing as a better solution in Iraq.
You continue to labor under the same false assumption here that multilateral and bilateral talks are mutually exclusive. They aren't, therefore your "flip-flop" claim doesn't stand up.

[shetline]

Originally posted by Ra
How is that a flip-flop? The both aren't mutually exclusive...
Looks like we we're working on posting pretty much the same thing at the same time. :D

[rok]

well, bob novak gave kerry the lowest scorecard score of a "D" for content. everyone else had him at B level vicinity. then again, i guess the onyl way kerry could get an "A" from novak would be to name at least three CIA operatives by name in his answers...

[shetline]

Originally posted by rok
well, bob novak gave kerry the lowest scorecard score of a "D" for content. everyone else had him at B level vicinity. then again, i guess the onyl way kerry could get an "A" from novak would be to name at least three CIA operatives by name in his answers...
Or promise to lower Bob's taxes. :lol:

[Aurora]

Fact is Kerry won the debate and George showed his true colors. George struggled and continued to stumble on Saddam, Bin Laden should have been his focus as Kerry said. Having served in the military if i had to choose from these two guys it would be a no brainer i would want Kerry leading me or my son into battle not chickenhawks like George and Dick. Chickenhawks find it easy to send others to die for their bullshit. Iraq is a mess and Bush has no idea what to do.Kerry has some good ideas. Sure Saddam is in Jail but he isnt the one who was behind 911 George. George is out of touch with reality. it was very obvious watching the debate. we need a Democrat in the whitehouse to balance the Republican congress anyways so im voting for Kerry. my first time voting for a Democrat.:smokey:

[dfiler]

I am registered as an independent and have previously voted for libertarian candidates. Last night’s debate restored a bit of my faith in democracy. As much as I dislike how our country is currently being run, at least the system isn’t a complete failure. A real challenger was given the chance to directly challenge our president in a public forum. Let us hope that this never changes.

Now for my analysis:
-------------------------
I'm glad to see that many others share my perception of what went on in the first debate.

Kerry articulated his stance on foreign policy, specifically stating what he would do in a coherent manner. Bush seemed to stumble along, harping on his steadfast nature but never really explaining how his policies differ from Kerry’s.

As an American, I am embarrassed that our president is unwilling or unable to present and justify his views. Instead, he thinks it’s more important to convince people that he never changes his mind, even when presented with new evidence.

Scariest of all?

Bush was explicit in stating that he is unwilling to discuss anything with North Korea. A country on the verge of becoming a nuclear power and Bush won’t even talk to them. In fact, that’s his entire foreign policy. Just do whatever the he wants with complete disregard to the new intelligence and the other six billion people on the planet.

In general, refusing to talk to others and refusing to consider new evidence is a foolhardy way to make any decision. When the decision is to invade and occupy another country, I prefer someone with a clear and analytical thought process. Instead, we’re stuck with someone who thinks it’s more important to appear resolute than to make correct decisions.

I’d rather hurt troops’ feelings then alienate and enrage the entire planet by continuing a failed invasion and occupation. Which is worse, to make somebody feel bad or to perpetuate a situation in which tens of thousands of people are dieing? Bush is destabilizing the entire planet, and in the process, breeding a whole new generation of USA hating terrorists.

Hopefully, others who watched the debate will come to similar conclusions.

[Aurora]

dfiler i agree about scariest of all, George can not admit he ever does wrong. this isnt a good trait.

iam independent so just wanted to say that though i have usually backed the republican side more so.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by Aurora
dfiler i agree about scariest of all, George can not admit he ever does wrong. this isnt a good trait.

+1, can anyone think of a time when he has ever taken responsibility for anything that went wrong?

[Towel]

Originally posted by trumptman
Here is a perfect example of something that probably sounded great and was well delivered but the ramifications behind it are terrible and terrifying.

Hey, if we can convince the world, then it is okay to actually protect the United States, but if they don't buy into it.... well I guess that is just too bad for us. Frankly, I think the alternative - not caring a whit about how the world sees your actions - is even more terrifying. There's a fine line between "pre-emption" and "naked aggression". The only difference lies in the motivation of the two parties, not their actual actions. To bring up an obvious historical example, Japan pre-emptively attacked the US in 1941 because they saw us a short-term (embargo) and long-term (fleet size) threat to their power in East Asia. They were right, on both counts. I don't think anyone, however, would cite Pearl Harbor as an example of the Bush Doctrine in action. Why is that?

Kerry's point is that if you're going to wage aggressive war, the bar for evidence supporting the idea of an imminent threat has to be set very high. If you can't convince anyone else in the world that such a threat exists, well, first of all you ought to begin to doubt the strength of your own evidence. Second of all, if you go to war anyway, you'll end up creating more enemies than you destroy. Going to war for no good reason, or a reason no one else can understand, is almost the definition of a rouge state. I don't want my country to fall into that category. I can imagine no more dangerous world to live in than one where the United States of America's only source of influence is the barrel of a gun, and war is the only tool we have left for protecting our interests.

[Common Man]

Some of you are so out of touch . The President did a fantastic job. He was strong and resolute and spoke to the people. His popularity can only rise after the debate.

Bush 55%
Kerry 45%

Moe

[pfflam]

haha, common man, that's funny

anyway . . . this from Salon:
- MISSTATING THE RATIONALE FOR WAR IN IRAQ: Bush tried to rebut Kerry about the prewar need for more patience on Iraq, saying diplomacy wouldn't have persuaded Saddam to disarm. Writes the Boston Globe, "It was almost as though the president has forgotten that no stockpiles of forbidden weapons have been found in Iraq."


-- MISSTATING VOTER REGISTRATION SUCCESS IN AFGHANISTAN: Bush stated, "10 million people have registered to vote in Afghanistan." The problem: most sources agree there aren't even 10 million eligible voters in the country ...


-- MISSTATING NORTH KOREA DIPLOMACY: Bush inexplicably claimed Kerry's proposal to have direct talks with North Korea would end the six-nation diplomacy that the administration has pursued over Pyongyang's nuclear ambitions, claiming it would also "drive away China, a key player in the negotiations." He was unable to explain this charge, however."


-- MISSTATING NUCLEAR NONPROLIFERATION EFFORTS: Last night, Bush said he'd increased spending by "about 35 percent" on nonproliferation efforts since he took office. The Washington Post points out that in his first budget, "he proposed a 13 percent cut -- about $116 million -- and much of the increases since then have been added by Congress."

[pfflam]

Originally posted by Common Man
Some of you are so out of touch . The President did a fantastic job. He was strong and resolute and spoke to the people. His popularity can only rise after the debate.

Bush 55%
Kerry 45%

Moe This is so perfect that I had to post it for you Commoner:The ever-cautious mainstream media is mostly calling Bush-Kerry Round 1 a draw this morning. Perhaps they don't trust the instapolls or the folks in Ohio. Perhaps they are CBS.

But a number of conservatives are calling it like they saw it -- and it ain't pretty for their man.

Jay Nordlinger, managing editor of the right-wing flagship National Review magazine, wrote up his thoughts immediately following the debate, without talking to anyone else or listening to other commentary. He said that an effective, relaxed Kerry "spoke clearly, and at a nice pace," while Bush, "a little desperate," pulled a Dan Quayle. (Ouch.) Here is part of his take on the president's quagmire in Coral Gables:

"I thought Kerry did very, very well; and I thought Bush did poorly -- much worse than he is capable of doing. Listen: If I were just a normal guy -- not Joe Political Junkie -- I would vote for Kerry. On the basis of that debate, I would. If I were just a normal, fairly conservative, war-supporting guy: I would vote for Kerry.

"Kerry went right to the alliances. He emphasized the importance of such relationships. At least you can't accuse him of succumbing to Republican mockery on the subject, of shucking this core conviction of his. Bush, throughout the evening, as Kerry spoke, had that pursed and annoyed look. I think it must have driven many people crazy. ...

"Bush said, 'We're makin' progress' a hundred times -- that seemed a little desperate. He also said 'mixed messages' a hundred times -- I was wishing that he would mix his message. He said, 'It's hard work,' or, 'It's tough,' a hundred times. In fact, Bush reminded me of Dan Quayle in the 1988 debate, when the Hoosier repeated a couple of talking points over and over, to some chuckles from the audience.

"Staying on message is one thing; robotic repetition -- when there are oceans of material available -- is another… I hate to say it, but often Bush gave the appearance of being what his critics charge he is: callow, jejune, unserious. And remember -- talk about repetition! -- I concede this as someone who loves the man.

"Bush was weary -- harmfully weary, I think. He let a million opportunities go by."

(Did we say, ouch?)

[pfflam]

Faces of Frustration -(RealPlayer) (http://mfile.akamai.com/8082/rm/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/video/faces/faces.ram)

[Ra]

Originally posted by Common Man
Some of you are so out of touch . The President did a fantastic job. He was strong and resolute and spoke to the people. His popularity can only rise after the debate. I don't agree. All I've heard from the Bush administration up to this point is Kerry is a flip-flopper, we need to get those darn terrorists, we're doing a great job in Iraq, etc, etc.

Last night the president had a real chance to talk to the American people, to explain what the hell we're doing in Iraq, provide an exit strategy, to explain why we aren't going after Osama bin Laden, to explain a lot of things. But I don't feel that he gave us any specifics. Well, I guess he did give us one thing specific: keep training the Iraqi police/military/national guard; he said 100,000 Iraqis have been trained thus far... but NBC news has been reporting there aren't that many but just under 50,000 (citing the Iraqi prime minister on this number).

Bush tried to discredit Kerry on his Iraq policy by saying he's disrespectful to the troops, you can't get anything done when you talk like that, etc... but what is Bush's Iraq policy? He hasn't laid anything out and I'm disappointed in him.

[DanMacMan]

I love reading all of your posts on this board. So typical in your hatred for Bush that you immediately go after his delivery and his so-called unintelligence. As Kerry says, its just more of the same. Bush has heard these same criticisms most of his political life, and all he does is win; Ann Richards, and Algore most recently. I mean, all Kerry has ever done in his 20 odd years in the senate is debate, thats what senators do. Of course his delivery and presentation will seem better. The difference in all of this is that Kerry, like most elitists in the Democratic party, is a thinker. He thinks he has all the answers, he thinks he has the plans. What are they? How will he implement them? And what happens when thinkers are leaders? They end up sitting around at a summit of some sort and talk and talk and talk, and nothing ever happens. Bush on the other hand is a believer, he says what he means, he means what he says, he talks the talk, walks the walk, he acts. He believes what he believes. Kerry believes what you want him to. Bush doesn't change based on the audience.

Listen, we can sit and argue all day long about politics, and never come to an understanding, let alone an agreement. But for Christ's sake, don't nail a man to the wall because he seems arrogant, or aloof, or monarchistic. The message is what matters. Bush's message is clear, understandable and consistently principled. He is who he is, he wears his heart on his sleeve. All I know is that you can think that 9/11 was a one time deal, to be dealt with in a old-fashioned police manner. Go on living your life like its September 10th, you'll feel better. But here in reality, you have to take the fight to the terrorists before it ends up on your doorstep again. A September 12th mentality is what it takes to lead this nation, and Bush has that.

End rant.

Here are some links to check out also here (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/705huaky.asp) and here. (http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005704)

[Common Man]

We will have to see how the polls respond. but I suspect little or no change. The President is telling the truth. There is no time table for this war. There can't be. We are in this for the long hall and he admits it.

[pfflam]

Where's that blinders image when you need it . . .


:lol: :lol:

[giant]

I do have to say that for all the comments about the debates lacking substance, last night was the most substance from either side that I've seen the whole time.

[johnq]

Originally posted by DanMacMan
Listen, we can sit and argue all day long about politics, and never come to an understanding, let alone an agreement. But for Christ's sake, don't nail a man to the wall because he seems arrogant, or aloof, or monarchistic.

That's rich!

"Don't nail a man to the wall because he seems arrogant, or aloof, or monarchistic"...Hm...I'll have to remember that...for next time Cheney opens up his dour piehole for the next round of repugnant anti-Kerry character assassination.

Originally posted by DanMacMan
Bush's message is clear, understandable and consistently principled.

That's just silly and actually scary!

[Common Man]

http://www.chronicallybiased.com/index.php?itemid=1727


Chronically Biased has a nice analysis of the debate.

[johnq]

Originally posted by shetline
You seem to be laboring under the false assumption that it's not possible to have bilateral and multilateral talks at the same time.

Right and so is Bush, worst of all.

Mr. Bush, bilateral and multilateral talks ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. :rolleyes:

[dmz]

Originally posted by pfflam
I think maybe you should crawl back under that rock now . . .


From my prespective it's akin to putting the manhole cover back on the sewer.

[dmz]

Originally posted by Ra
If you didn't watch the debate, then how in the hell do you know what the candidates did or did not address???


Because they want to be elected, not address serious issues. That third rail will have to wait until after the election.

[Towel]

Originally posted by pfflam/Salon
- MISSTATING THE RATIONALE FOR WAR IN IRAQ: Bush tried to rebut Kerry about the prewar need for more patience on Iraq, saying diplomacy wouldn't have persuaded Saddam to disarm. Writes the Boston Globe, "It was almost as though the president has forgotten that no stockpiles of forbidden weapons have been found in Iraq."
This bugged me. WRT diplomacy vs. force in Iraq, he kept repeating the same talking points he used in the run-up to the war: Saddam will never voluntarily disarm, inspections have failed, diplomacy will never work, the only way to disarm him is by force, etc etc.

Except for that niggling little detail that's come to light since the war: there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Saddam had already been disarmed.

Yet the President resolutely fails to even acknowledge that fact. Not only does he say he'd still have gone to war, knowing everything that we know now. He even speaks about it as it we found those weapons and proved him (Bush) right. 1. "But Saddam Hussein had no intention of disarming."
2. "And secondly, to think that another round of resolutions would have caused Saddam Hussein to disarm, disclose, is ludicrous, in my judgment."
3. "He had the capability of making weapons and he would have made weapons."1. He had already been disarmed, evidently. 2. See #1. 3. I thought we were officially all the way down to "weapons-related program activities"? That's not "capability".

It's this complete refusal to acknowledge reality that scares me the most about him. Words do not make reality go away.

[Aurora]

Towel makes a nice post about Bush and WMDs and Saddam was disarmed by his father for the most part. I dont want a kid of mine dieing for this. ChickenHawks..............:mad:

[Paul]

Originally posted by DanMacMan
[B]Here are some links to check out also here (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/705huaky.asp)
are you kidding?
Round 11: Give us specifics as to how you would end U.S. involvement in Iraq.
Kerry talks about 14 military bases in Iraq and guarding the Oil Ministry and we're off to MoveOn land again.
Round to Bush

Yeah, that seems like a good reason to give the round to Bush... :rolleyes:

and common man's link:
Suffice to say that I have come to the following conclusion: Bush won.
My reason for reaching this conclusion is simple; while Bush stayed on message, Kerry dabbled in minutia.

that came right outa this (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46754) :no:

comeon fellas, you can do better then that...

[bunge]

Originally posted by Paul
comeon fellas, you can do better then that...

No, they can't.

[pierr_alex]

John Kerry is gonna win the elections.
If not, I'll eat my PowerBook: Including its 512Mb additional RAM.

;-)

[jimmac]

Do you guys remember the Churchlady from SNL?

That's what Bush's expression reminded me of last night. Kind of puckered up and bothered. Most of the people interviewed after the debate said they both did well but Kerry came out the winner. He seemed so calm and easy with his answers. Prepared would be the term I guess.

[Ra]

Originally posted by DanMacMan
Bush's message is clear, understandable and consistently principled. He is who he is, he wears his heart on his sleeve. All I know is that you can think that 9/11 was a one time deal, to be dealt with in a old-fashioned police manner. Go on living your life like its September 10th, you'll feel better. But here in reality, you have to take the fight to the terrorists before it ends up on your doorstep again. A September 12th mentality is what it takes to lead this nation, and Bush has that. On Bush's message: at least to me, it hasn't been clear or understandable. All I've been hearing from the republican camp is charges of "flip-flopping" and "we need to fight the war on terror" and "we need to get those terrorists before they get us." Ok... but now we're in Iraq where there were no terrorists because "we need to fight the war on terror"? I'm not sure I understand.

At least to me, it seems fighting the war on terror would be going after Al Queda and the Taliban, hunting down Osama bin Laden, putting an end to North Korea and Iran's nuclear (weapons) programs, and gathering up loose nuclear materials left over from the cold war.

Now don't try and label me a liberal, I'm an independent and regularly vote on both sides of the fence. With regard to foreign policy, all I've seen from the republican camp is attacks on John Kerry. So I'm genuinely concerned about what Bush's foreign policy is. When you say we're going after terrorists and then invade a country without terrorists in it, and provide (still) no exit strategy, it makes me wonder what their intentions really are, and why they really invaded.

[midwinter]

I don't know about any of ya'll, but by the end of the debate, I wanted to put Bush, his incessant charges of "flip-flopping," his bizarre statements that "____ is hard work!" and his freaky blinking in a lock box.

[badtz]

Originally posted by Aquatic
"...uh uh I just know how this world works."

Just like the conservative idiots on this board, full of unqualified one-liners that are just BS.

Exactly [!!!!] what I was thinking. :err:

[Frank777]

Originally posted by midwinter
...in a lock box.

Now you're just trying to annoy me. That word should never, ever, be used in a Presidential debate again!
Any candidate using it should forfeit the election.

[the cool gut]

I actually just saw the debate today on re-runs. I can't believe those who called the debate "close"

Kerry won hands down - I couldn't believe how uncomfortable Bush looked. I thought Kerry spent a little too much time writing, but it was a better strategy than just standing there looking like an idiot.

[faust9]

Originally posted by the cool gut
I actually just saw the debate today on re-runs. I can't believe those who called the debate "close"

Kerry won hands down - I couldn't believe how uncomfortable Bush looked. I thought Kerry spent a little too much time writing, but it was a better strategy than just standing there looking like an idiot.

Nothing wrong with writing things down. It's better to write "Bush is a F&*king idiot" on a piece of paper than to show it on your face. Kerry chose to write while Bush chose to show his emotions as facial expressions. Sneers and scowls are not good form during a debate. They give the impression of arrogance and appear like the scowler is asking via facial expression alone "How dare you question me!" No, write all you want Mr. Kerry. You gave the high-school bully the whipping he deserved. You'll do the same in the next two also (I said Kerry would do well here and no-one believed me).

DMZ: "It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain

You didn't watch the debate thus you are a fool for commenting on that which you have no knowledge of.

[curiousuburb]

PBS's News Hour had some interesting commentary last night on the mechanics, rhetorical styles, and things like body language and non-verbal cues.

Note taking was specifically mentioned as a technique used previously to some degree to distract the viewers from the points the other speaker is making. Kerry appeared attentive and one might conclude he was planning replies or noting details.

Bush, by contrast, took few notes, and his primary postures during the times Kerry was speaking seemed to be pursed lips, rolling eyes, and generally appearing distracted and not paying attention.

PBS noted that their coverage of the debate (which I watched) was primarily a single camera, sometimes in a two-shot or cutaway.
CNN, and many of the networks, including C-SPAN, apparently ran much of the debate in a constant split-screen two-shot, so you nearly always watched the responses of the other.

According to the early polling quoted by PBS last night, those who watched the single camera version or read the transcripts after the fact were more likely to conclude Bush had done well, or thought the overall result was a draw. Those who watched the split-screen were quite measurably of the view that Kerry won and/or that Bush had done poorly by comparison.

Some went so far as to argue Bush only does well in folksy town meeting style debates, where the barstool-buddy image seems more important for some reason, but purely on image and statesmanlike appearance, Kerry gained advantage.

[rok]

Originally posted by DanMacMan
[B]I mean, all Kerry has ever done in his 20 odd years in the senate is debate, thats what senators do. Of course his delivery and presentation will seem better. The difference in all of this is that Kerry, like most elitists in the Democratic party, is a thinker. He thinks he has all the answers, he thinks he has the plans.

rob corddry from the daily show, reporting from the bush camp immediately following the debate (somewhat paraphrased by me, so don't nitpick if i don't get every word right... my accuracy is at least as good as any republican soundbite these days):

jon stewart: "so, rob, what's the sentiment there in the republican camp?"

rob corddry: "orgasmic triumph, jon."

jon: "????"

rob: "you see, jon, as we all know, senator kerry is the son of french-speaking homosexual billionaires who has been honing his debate skills since the tender age of three. the fact that the president, who by many standardized tests is, in fact, clinically retarded, managed to escape the debate without bawling in tears can only be viewed as a success. lest we forget, this is a president who was nearly done in by a pretzel."

[midwinter]

Originally posted by DanMacMan
The difference in all of this is that Kerry, like most elitists in the Democratic party, is a thinker.

Are you saying then that Bush is not a thinker?

[MarcUK]

completele off topic. Havn't mentioned for a while.

Pagan SUN Worship

Osiris-Horus-Zeus-Dionysis-Mithras-Jesus-MarcUKus

The age of Aquarius:Precession

"diabolical mimicry." My ARSE.

[Ra]

Originally posted by rok
rob corddry from the daily show, reporting from the bush camp immediately following the debate [. . .] Here's that link for those that want it: http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.jhtml?player=realplayer&type=v&quality=high&reposid=/multimedia/tds/headlines/9040.html

[faust9]

A beaten man?

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Web_Exclusives/040928_041002/041002_PollStory_hd.hmedium.jpg (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6159637/site/newsweek/)<--- click me.

[Xool]

I taped the debate and Daily Show report but haven't watched 'em yet. I did see the last 30 minutes however, and watch some of the post debate coverage. Can't wait to see the whole shebang.

Bush was his usual weasel self. Kerry put on a good show.

[MarcUK]

Just wait until Bush starts blaming others in his administration and then blames the failure on the populace, then you can be sure that Bush is the new Hitler.

[segovius]

Originally posted by MarcUK
Just wait until Bush starts blaming others in his administration and then blames the failure on the populace, then you can be sure that Bush is the new Hitler.

But Hitler didn't do any of those things.... :???:

[Common Man]

Enjoy your assault on the President, but come election day you not be happy. The President looked angry because he was. He had to stand there for 90 minutes and listen to Kerrry's drivel.



Bush 55%
Kerry 45%


Moe

[jimmac]

Well here's the truth......

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/03/election.poll/index.html

I knew the debates would be telling.


;) OUT THE DOOR IN 2004!

[segovius]

Originally posted by Common Man
Enjoy your assault on the President, but come election day you not be happy.

Ain't that the truth.

Bush-Lite or Bush-Lite.

Democracy and choice is truly a gift from God.

[johnq]

Well, since Gore sighed and the RepubliFOXes decreed that he lost because of it, then I guess Bush will lose.

http://www.nullface.com/ai/sigh.jpg


:D

[FormerLurker]

Originally posted by faust9
A beaten man?

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Web_Exclusives/040928_041002/041002_PollStory_hd.hmedium.jpg (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6159637/site/newsweek/)<--- click me.

Good coverage from Newsweek:

A whopping 63 million voters watched the Miami debate, and Kerry was scored the winner by 61 percent of them; only 19 percent thought Bush had won. Among viewers, Kerry overwhelmingly was regarded as the better informed and more self-assured. More ominously for Bush, Kerry was seen as the stronger leader onstage (47-44 percent)—and even as the more likable guy (47-41 percent). Bush aides privately had to admit that it was a race again, understating the obvious.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by faust9
A beaten man?

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Web_Exclusives/040928_041002/041002_PollStory_hd.hmedium.jpg (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6159637/site/newsweek/)<--- click me.

Should I point out the ironicness of you pointing to a Newsweek poll that doesn't balance for party representation or are you just going to admit you were wrong on the whole Gallup issue?

Nick

[shetline]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
"Ironicness"

:lol:
Besides the damage to this country and the world at large, think of the irreparable harm that might befall the English language if the chimp gets for more years. :D

[jimmac]

Originally posted by trumptman
Should I point out the ironicness of you pointing to a Newsweek poll that doesn't balance for party representation or are you just going to admit you were wrong on the whole Gallup issue?

Nick

Try " irony ". :lol:


Besides I seem to recall the republicans quoting the Newsweek poll just last week.;)

[midwinter]

Originally posted by trumptman
Should I point out the ironicness of you pointing to a Newsweek poll that doesn't balance for party representation or are you just going to admit you were wrong on the whole Gallup issue?

Nick

The ironicness of "ironicness" aside, didn't the Newsweek poll ID skew in favor of Republicans?

[jimmac]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/01/debate.worldreax.ap/index.html

;)

[johnq]

The Bush PLAYDOWN/PLAYUP LIST:

1. PLAY DOWN "BRING IT ON" AND "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" AND STEADY WORSENING OF THE SITUATION, ATTIBUTE IT TO "HARD WORK":

Hard Work:
- It's hard work. It's incredibly hard.
- It's hard work.
- And it's hard work.
- It is hard work.
- It is hard work to go from a tyranny to a democracy.
- It's hard work to go from a place where people get their hands cut off, or executed, to a place where people are free.
- You know, it's hard work to try to love her as best as I can, knowing full well that the decision I made caused her loved one to be in harm's way.
- It's hard work.
- Everybody knows it's hard work, because there's a determined enemy that's trying to defeat us.
- We've done a lot of hard work together over the last three and a half years.

2. PLAYUP KERRY'S INARTICULATE GAFF AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE INGORANCE OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND THEIR DISINTEREST OF THE DETAILS OF THE ACTUAL VOTE FOR THE "87 BILLION".

Mixed Messages/Signals:
- He doesn't want U.S. leadership, however, to send mixed signals, to not stand with the Iraqi people.
- I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals to our troops, our friends, the Iraqi citizens.
- I think that by speaking clearly and doing what we say and not sending mixed messages, it is less likely we'll ever have to use troops.
- You cannot lead if you send mixed messages.
- Mixed messages send the wrong signals to our troops.
- Mixed messages send the wrong signals to our allies.
- Mixed messages send the wrong signals to the Iraqi citizens.
- The way to make sure that we succeed is to send consistent, sound messages to the Iraqi people that when we give our word, we will keep our word, that we stand with you, that we believe you want to be free.

3. PLAYDOWN THE DEATHS, ERRORS, WEAKNESSES, EVER SMALLER COALITION AND SPIN IT AS "STRENGTH".

Strong:
- The best way to defeat them is to never waver, to be strong, to use every asset at our disposal, is to constantly stay on the offensive and, at the same time, spread liberty.
- But if we remain strong and resolute, we will defeat this enemy.
- And that's why it's essential that we have strong alliances, and we do.
- And our alliance is strong.
- We're standing with you strong.
- Our coalition is strong. It will remain strong, so long as I'm the president.
- And our alliance is strong.
- By being steadfast and resolute and strong, by keeping our word, by supporting our troops, we can achieve the peace we all want.

4. PLAYDOWN THE FACT THAT WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS AND LOSING
- We're making progress.
- And we're making progress there.
- We're making progress.
- Yes, we're getting the job done.

[DanMacMan]

http://www.drudgereport.com/kdn.jpg

New reports that Kerry may have, against the agreed-to rules of both campaigns, brought in an illegal piece of paper. A cheat sheet? Who knows, no one but Kerry and his closest most likely. What affect might it have had?

Story Link. (http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc57.htm)

[midwinter]

Originally posted by DanMacMan
http://www.drudgereport.com/kdn.jpg

New reports that Kerry may have, against the agreed-to rules of both campaigns, brought in an illegal piece of paper. A cheat sheet? Who knows, no one but Kerry and his closest most likely. What af