Osama's back.....

[segovius]

BBC link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3966741.stm).

So, no October Surprise - unless this is it.

Maybe it's time to remember why Osama is still on the loose....

[Northgate]

Now pay attention to the GOP PR machine...

A VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IS A VOTE FOR BIN LADEN!

They won't say it in those words. But that is what they'll mean.

A VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IS A VOTE FOR THE TERRORISTS!

A VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IS A VOTE FOR SADDAM!

Of course, a vote for John Kerry couldn't mean DEMOCRACY in action.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Northgate
Now pay attention to the GOP PR machine...

A VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IS A VOTE FOR BIN LADEN!

They won't say it in those words. But that is what they'll mean.

A VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IS A VOTE FOR THE TERRORISTS!

A VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IS A VOTE FOR SADDAM!

Of course, a vote for John Kerry couldn't mean DEMOCRACY in action.

It's tough to call though - what the effect will be apart from the already 'converted'.

Anyone want to hazard an opinion how this will play amongst the undecided voters ?

[dmz]

....does anyone have a full transcript of this tape?

[Beige_G3]

Originally posted by dmz
....does anyone have a full transcript of this tape?

I have not seen a full translation yet. I think it is still being translated.

[Anders]

Ladies and gentlemen: Kerry just lost the election.

[Akumulator]

Originally posted by Anders
Ladies and gentlemen: Kerry just lost the election.

Bullshit.

[dmz]

Full(?) Transcript (http://www.drudgereport.com/flash2.htm)

[pfflam]

Gee . . . . one week before the election . . . . how perfect.

Either the tape has been in American hands till now,
or,
OBL is on the payroll,
OR,
OBL really does want Bush to win.

In all cases its absurd

[Anders]

Originally posted by Akumulator
Bullshit.

I bet you 10 bucks this is going to cost Kerry shitloads of votes.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by dmz
Full(?) Transcript (http://www.drudgereport.com/flash2.htm) Why does that sound so fake?!?!

[dmz]

I dunno, guys he hit most of Micheal Moores talking points. I'd say he is trying to throw the election Kerry's way.

[shetline]

Originally posted by segovius
It's tough to call though - what the effect will be apart from the already 'converted'.

Anyone want to hazard an opinion how this will play amongst the undecided voters ?
Those who are driven by unthinking fear might very well run to Daddy for help, Daddy being Bush in this case.

Anyone with half a brain will realize that if anyone is to blame for Osama still being around to taunt Bush about My Pet Goat, it's Bush, and they'll vote for Kerry.

Anyone with a full brain is already voting for Kerry, so for them the tape won't make any difference. :D

[Anders]

Originally posted by dmz
I dunno, guys he hit most of Micheal Moores talking points. I'd say he is trying to throw the election Kerry's way.

It depends on what the meaning of the word 'he' is

[shetline]

Originally posted by Anders
Ladies and gentlemen: Kerry just lost the election.
Nah. This tape can be used for good 'ol Republica fear-mongering, but it's hardly all that good for Bush. Kerry can easily capitalize on this tape by pointing out how it demonstrates Bush's failure to finish the job in Afghanistan and his failure to go after OBL harder.

Each side can spin this to rev up their base, but the effect is probably a wash on undecideds.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

The election belongs to Bush. This is worth 2% points to the Security President right across the board. There's not a swing voter in the land who's not going to turn to the Commander in Chief faced with the sight of frigging Osama bin Laden on his TV.

SHIT SHIT SHIT.

[Anders]

Early voters are trying to withdraw their Kerry vote. 23 voting locations have already been stormed in Florida (http://www.ifakedit.com)

[jimmac]

Originally posted by Anders
Ladies and gentlemen: Kerry just lost the election.

-----------------------------------------------------------
" Americans go to the polls in four days, but Bin Laden says their security depends on neither George W Bush nor John Kerry, but on US foreign policy. "

-----------------------------------------------------------

I don't think so.

[segovius]

So who reckons they've been sitting on this tape for months - it's the October Surprise.

[jimmac]

Originally posted by Anders
Early voters are trying to withdraw their Kerry vote. 23 voting locations have already been stormed in Florida (http://www.ifakedit.com)


ifakedit.com?

[jimmac]

Originally posted by segovius
So who reckons they've been sitting on this tape for months - it's the October Surprise.

I wouldn't be surprised. At this point they'd try anything.

[Anders]

Originally posted by jimmac
ifakedit.com?

But of course I did. Its only in the local news here and you don´t understand danish. So I had to fake the URL.

[jamac]

If we vote for Osama he won't attack us.
And he seems pretty level headed, comes from a good family and already has a lot of friends in the administration.

[Gilsch]

You would've thought Osama directed this at foreigners. Look at them panicking on this thread alone. Get a grip.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by dmz
I dunno, guys he hit most of Micheal Moores talking points. I'd say he is trying to throw the election Kerry's way. Care to expand on those Moore talking pointS, plural, that Osama "hit"?

[Northgate]

A VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IS A VOTE FOR OSAMA BIN LADEN!

(Edit: Oops.)

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Northgate
A VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IS A VOTE OF OSAMA BIN LADEN!
Of?

[faust9]

Even bin laden criticized Bush for sitting on his ass reading a book to school kids on 9/11!!!

OBL: We agreed with Mohamed Atta, god bless him, to execute the whole operation in 20 minutes. Before Bush and his administration would pay attention and we never thought that the high commander of the US armies would leave 50 thousand of his citizens in both towers to face the horrors by themselves when they most needed him because it seemed to distract his attention from listening to the girl telling him about her goat butting was more important than paying attention to airplanes butting the towers which gave us three times the time to execute the operation thank god.



This will get some play. This will cost Bush dearly. Bush fear of frightening the children--more like Bush was a chicken shit child himself--gave the nare-do-wells more time to execute their plane.

[faust9]

Originally posted by Anders
Ladies and gentlemen: Kerry just lost the election.

Read the debate transcripts. Look for mentions of OBL. Kerry dropped OBL's name as ofen as he could while Bush only addresses OBL when confronted. Why, because OBL's freedom is NOT good for Bush's reelection. This is a negative for Bush. The American people see OBL is still alive, still free, still threatening the US while we putz around in Iraq. The recent reports of 377 tons of high explosives added to this will tank Bush for sure. No doubt about it.

[faust9]

Add this too: http://homepage.mac.com/njenson/movies/notconcerned.html

[shetline]

I know these aren't scientific surveys, but online polls for both CBS and NBC are both showing as of now about an 87% rating for "Hurts Bush" vs. "Helps Bush" regarding the new OBL video.

Besides reminding everyone that OBL is alive and wasn't captured by Bush, the fact that hated enemy Osama himself is mocking Bush for reading "My Pet Goat" while he knew the his own country was under attack is not doing Bush any good at all.

I was a bit worried when I heard about this story at first, but the War of Spin in our media right now seems to be in Kerry's favor.

[Beige_G3]

This is going to help Bush, which is probably OBLs wish. I think OBL wants Bush in power because he wants war. He is ready for his last stand and he wants to go down fighting Bush, the absolute symbol of what the world hates about the US. Also, the F911 quotes are major fuel for the ulta right's fire. Savage (as nut sas he is) is calling for the arrest of MM. These are strange times we live in.

[dmz]

Originally posted by faust9
Even bin laden criticized Bush for sitting on his ass reading a book to school kids on 9/11!!!



It's pretty cool when you realize Micheal Moore and the big O are on the same page.

Ladies and gents, in poker, it's really cool when you rattle your oponent -- and if you can do it on International TV, all the better. Too bad W didn't give that ragheaded c**ksucker the pleasure. GWB knew exactly what he was doing.

[sammi jo]

Does anyone yet have any idea when this tape was made, and where?

It is strange how bin Laden first denied any involvement with 9-11, then secondly, this morphed into "having advance knowledge" on the previous Thursday that the attacks had been authorized, presumably by aniother party, to now, actually ordering the attack personally. He's either a flip flopper, incredibly inconsistent, or an outright liar.

Any "bin Laden" tapes have to be treated with the utmost skepticism, especially after December 2001 Kandahar video, which was phoney, and a really poorly done fake at that.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The latter is beyond lacking.

(added later...edit)

Bin Laden is a huge asset in justifying the war on terror. Even if he is dead, he will be kept alive for years and years. Without that unmistakeable image popping up on everyone's TV screens from time to time, the "war on terror", phoney as it is, will be far harder to justify, even to the sheep.

[faust9]

Originally posted by dmz
It's pretty cool when you realize Micheal Moore and the big O are on the same page.

Ladies and gents, in poker, it's really cool when you rattle your oponent -- and if you can do it on International TV, all the better. Too bad W didn't give that ragheaded c**ksucker the pleasure. GWB knew exactly what he was doing.

324 characters of utter nonsense!?! What are you talking about? M.Moore pointed out that Bush did nothing. OBL pointed out that Bush's doing nothing allowed for more misdeeds.

The second part of your post is a major candidate for the "out in left filed" category BTW. No clue what you're getting at or talking about for that matter.

[Aquatic]

These days it seems like both sides agree on the facts but draw opposite conclusions.

I do not understand this.

How can you be anything but angered at Bush after terrorists steal 395 thousand TONS of high explosives?

How can you not be angered when a free OBL posts videos willy nilly encouraging people to attack us?

These are the facts. Bush is Commander in Chief. He did not send enough troops to "win" in Iraq. In fact they should never have been there because they should have been in Afghanistan. He waited two months to even START looking for Osama. These are facts. How can you support Bush foreign policy with facts like these? dmz, et al, there is no room.

Americans are incredibly stupid when they say sure OBL is still out there, but Bush is "making tough choices and sticking with them." Would he have never pulled out of Vietnam, if he was President then? Or would just have skipped it entirely to smoke up...:D OK that was bad, no more needless jabs. Regardless, I am puzzled by the way people are "debating" the "meaning" of "facts" and drawing conclusions in this election year. I don't think it has ever been like this. The polarization is incredible. And bad. It must go. We need a uniter, not a divider. I am not sure if Kerry is the man to do it. I have a feeling Edwards is. We shall see. Kerry so far has shown incredible thoughtfulness in his career. Or as some would call it, flip-flopping.

[midwinter]

If only during the debates Kerry had constantly referred to Bush's turning his attention from OBL to SH. If only Kerry had talked about how Bush allowed OBL to escape. If only Bush hadn't said he wasn't concerned with OBL. If only Bush hadn't said that he hadn't said he wasn't concerned with OBL.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by dmz
Ladies and gents, in poker, it's really cool when you rattle your oponent -- and if you can do it on International TV, all the better. Too bad W didn't give that ragheaded c**ksucker the pleasure. GWB knew exactly what he was doing. LMAO.

Plane crashes into the world's most important financial center. President decides to go ahead with a photo-op.

DMZ considers this proof that Bush is a great leader.

Bizarro world.

[shetline]

Originally posted by Aquatic
These days it seems like both sides agree on the facts but draw opposite conclusions.

I do not understand this.
What's going on mostly in this thread is people who've already decided that Bush is a Bad Thing getting worried that stupid people (there are a lot of them out there, and some of them vote) will see the OBL video and irrationally panic and run for the illusory safety of Dubya. They've seen so much rapant stupidity based on emotional rhetoric it's easy to get worried that practically anything sensational somehow plays into Bush's hands.

I feared this a little myself about the OBL tape. But those fears have faded fast. This is starting to play out badly for Bush in the American media.

As far as I'm concerned, the only real downside to the tape is that it crowds out other bad news for Bush, like 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians (doesn't look like US invasion and occupation is much healthier for the longevity of the Iraqi people than Saddam was), the 380 tons of high explosives fiasco, more Halliburton scandal, etc.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by dmz
Too bad W didn't give that ragheaded c**ksucker the pleasure. GWB knew exactly what he was doing.

Did you just call OBL a "raghead"?

[dmz]

Originally posted by Aquatic
These are the facts. Bush is Commander in Chief. He did not send enough troops to "win" in Iraq. In fact they should never have been there because they should have been in Afghanistan. He waited two months to even START looking for Osama. These are facts. How can you support Bush foreign policy with facts like these? dmz, et al, there is no room.


Winning Iraq? I don't happen to think that your garden variety Muslim is up to the task of 'Western Democracy' (which may be a self-contraadictory term) -- not because they are stupid, but because for them counting noses DOES NOT CONFER AUTHORITY. This was tried in Viet Nam and did not work for the very same reasons -- it took a semi-religious figure in Ho Chi Mihn to rally the Buddists. Also, Bush frelled up in Iraq by underestimating his opponent, and his ability to fade into the background.

It took two months to get the SF into Afghanistan handing out $100 bills (or what ever it took to get enough help moving in the same direction.) The SF guys where getting off planes in China within a day or two of the 9/11 attacks IIRC.

(If Bush wanted oil he could have played the sancitons/kickback game the same way as France, Russia, and China.)

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by dmz
(If Bush wanted oil he could have played the sancitons/kickback game the same way as France, Russia, and China.) A "closer to home" example would've been Cheney/Halliburton doing business with Iran illegally.

I ask you AGAIN, because you didn't/couldn't reply before.
Care to expand on those Moore talking pointS, plural, that Osama "hit"?Otherwise I'll just take it as you talking out of your ...

[dmz]

quicky -- the Saudi thing and the School thing.


I gotta go I'm getting on a plane to Oakland shortly! Bye! May they'll have wifi at the hotel.

HEY EVERYBODY I'M MAKING THE FRELLING PILGRIMAGE TO CUPERTINO!!!

shit, what am I saying.


bye

[Akumulator]

Originally posted by shetline
What's going on mostly in this thread is people who've already decided that Bush is a Bad Thing getting worried that stupid people (there are a lot of them out there, and some of them vote) will see the OBL video and irrationally panic and run for the illusory safety of Dubya.

Here's one example from this thread (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=2417):

sigh* .....just when I had moved from the "undecided" column into the Kerry column. :(
That if Bin Laden would much rather have Kerry in office, it's obvious that he feels his life would be considerably easier under Kerry than under Bush.

I don't particularly want Bin Laden's life to be easier.

(linking here is allowed by now.. eh?)

[Akumulator]

If Kerry can convince the people that Bush has made blunders and one of the major one's is not capturing/killing bin Laden in favor of going to Iraq, then this may not be so bad for Kerry after all.

"I regret that when George Bush had the opportunity in Afghanistan at Tora Bora, he didn't choose to use American forces to hunt down and kill Osama bin Laden."

"He outsourced the job to Afghan warlords. I would never have done that. I think it was an enormous mistake, and we're paying the price for that today," he said.

Kerry also said that he believes he can "run a more effective war on terror than George Bush."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/29/kerry.friday/index.html

[NaplesX]

It hard to argue about this when OBL did everything but hold a Kerry Edwards sign.

I think he got the DNC talking points.

[bunge]

Originally posted by NaplesX
It hard to argue about this when OBL did everything but hold a Kerry Edwards sign.

I think he got the DNC talking points.

Honestly, does this matter? He could get up and recite Shakespear and I wouldn't decide that it was bad literature. Osama alive is nothing but a complete failure by the Bush administration.

I think Kerry laid off the topic of Osama because he was afraid of an October surprise; that being a dead Osama. He's got four days to capitalize on confirmation of the biggest failure of Bush's presidency.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by bunge
Honestly, does this matter? He could get up and recite Shakespear and I wouldn't decide that it was bad literature. Osama alive is nothing but a complete failure by the Bush administration.

I think Kerry laid off the topic of Osama because he was afraid of an October surprise; that being a dead Osama. He's got four days to capitalize on confirmation of the biggest failure of Bush's presidency. What about the whole idea that the October surprise would be a sudden announcement of his capture, being that they had him in custody all this time?

Where is that rise in the terror alert? Even after this?

Were you wrong about Bush? Are you willing to admit it?

I am sure your answer is no.

[shetline]

Originally posted by NaplesX
It hard to argue about this when OBL did everything but hold a Kerry Edwards sign.

I think he got the DNC talking points.
If Osama sends out a video saying 2+2=4, do we change all of our kids' text books to say 2+2=3 or 2+2=5 just to show Osama who's in charge, and to show the world we're "tough on terrorism"?

Call it a "DNC talking point" as much as you like, it's a damning truth about Bush that he sat there listening to kids read "My Pet Goat" when he should have been taking decisive action. Whether Michael Moore, Osama bin Laden, or the Easter Bunny says it, it's still true.

Shall we spite ourselves by re-electing an awful President just to spite Osama?

[bunge]

Originally posted by NaplesX
What about the whole idea that the October surprise would be a sudden announcement of his capture, being that they had him in custody all this time?

Where is that rise in the terror alert? Even after this?

Were you wrong about Bush? Are you willing to admit it?

I am sure your answer is no.

I'm not sure I follow. I don't think the Bush administration would have said that Osama had been held for weeks or months. If they pulled him out of a hat they would have said they caught him yesterday and no one would have been the wiser.

Did anyone think the surprise was going to be that Osama had been held for a long time? I think the answer to that is no.

[Frank777]

Assuming the tape is real, I think Bin Laden's trying to have it both ways.

1. If Bush wins, he can point to the American President as conducting his "crusade" against Islamic countries.

2. If Kerry wins, he will take credit for influencing the U.S. election, then continue with Point #1.

[Frank777]

Originally posted by shetline
Call it a "DNC talking point" as much as you like, it's a damning truth about Bush that he sat there listening to kids read "My Pet Goat" when he should have been taking decisive action. Whether Michael Moore, Osama bin Laden, or the Easter Bunny says it, it's still true.

No, it's not.

The first thing you're taught when handling a security portfolio is to never react suddenly in public when presented with crucial information. I imagine Bush has had this drilled into him, since he's always got a camera pointed at him.

If Bush was the complete idiot a lot of people think he is, he would have leapt from the chair and tried to be some sort of political superman.

And the footage of the U.S. President panicking over terrorism would have been far worse.

I think he should have excused himself earlier, but when someone told me on the morning of Sept. 11 that a plane had struck a building in New York, I didn't get the significance of it at first either.

[bunge]

Originally posted by Frank777
I think he should have excused himself earlier, but when someone told me on the morning of Sept. 11 that a plane had struck a building in New York, I didn't get the significance of it at first either.

Well you weren't privy to as much of the information as Bush was prior to the event.

[Ra]

Originally posted by bunge
Well you weren't privy to as much of the information as Bush was prior to the event. And he's not the president.

[giant]

edit: nevermind. I'm sick of responding to stupid posts.

edit 2: Maybe someone can explain to me why this tape helps bush. I honestly don't understand why it would help bush to have the US' #1 enemy resurface, thus reinforcing how bush admin policies let him escape and live free while we wasted our attention, energy and resources on a war for a WMD threat that didn't exist.

[Akumulator]

Originally posted by giant
edit: nevermind. I'm sick of responding to stupid posts.

It was about Frank777 being Canadian, wasn't it? :D

[Gene Clean]

it's a nice way to divert attention from the explosives scandal. they were screwed today at the pentagon briefing, they didn't know what the hell they were saying.

they put out two guys, one of them a solider that when asked did he see IAEA seals keept talkinh about how he got recruited, the other supposedly a special advisor to the department of defence, kept repeating two very interesting phrases (said them over 50 times) :

1. "we don't know..."

2. "we are trying to learn better...".

no wonder kerry says they have no clue what is going on in Iraq (point 1), and they also do not know how to handle the war and the peace in Iraq (point 2).

I actually expected this, as the US government had a copy of the tape before it was broadcasted in Al-Jazeera, which leads me to believe that they had the tape for God know how long, and were saving it for one of their big scandals, which they, obviously, did.

[Frank777]

Originally posted by giant
edit: nevermind. I'm sick of responding to stupid posts.

That defeats the whole point of coming to AI in the first place. :D

[Anders]

Originally posted by giant
edit 2: Maybe someone can explain to me why this tape helps bush. I honestly don't understand why it would help bush to have the US' #1 enemy resurface, thus reinforcing how bush admin policies let him escape and live free while we wasted our attention, energy and resources on a war for a WMD threat that didn't exist.

You could see this as you see it. "Hmm Osama. Yeah isn´t that the guy Bush said he would get? Wasn´t he the one who did the 911 thing? Oh yeah. Why the hell is he still able to make videos ridiculing us? What a douchbag president we have"

Or you could react like this "Osama. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhh. Hidehidehide. Protectprotectprotect. Bombbombbomb anything. Please where is my father so he can protect me?"

Two logical reactions. One on a intellectual level, the other on a emotional level. I believe people more often react emotional. I know I do.

[giant]

Interesting. I've really always struggled with understanding how large groups of people think, particularly WRT to emotional motivations.

edit: cut out my waxing philosophic that I doubt anyone cares about.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by Anders
You could see this as you see it. "Hmm Osama. Yeah isn´t that the guy Bush said he would get? Wasn´t he the one who did the 911 thing? Oh yeah. Why the hell is he still able to make videos ridiculing us? What a douchbag president we have"

Or you could react like this "Osama. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhh. Hidehidehide. Protectprotectprotect. Bombbombbomb anything. Please where is my father so he can protect me?"

Two logical reactions. One on a intellectual level, the other on a emotional level. I believe people more often react emotional. I know I do.

I don't believe in the fear factor here.

I don't think that many people are scared to know that OBL is still alive, they are scared that Alquaeda is still alive, and nobody believed that Al Quaeda is dead.

I think that this video is bad for Bush, it show that he was not able to punish the man that ordered 9/11 : it's a provocation for Bush, but it's essentially a provocation for US

[segovius]

Originally posted by Frank777
Assuming the tape is real, I think Bin Laden's trying to have it both ways.

1. If Bush wins, he can point to the American President as conducting his "crusade" against Islamic countries.

2. If Kerry wins, he will take credit for influencing the U.S. election, then continue with Point #1.

When did he ever take credit for influencing Spain ?

I think your #2 can safely be struck off.

#1 doesn't fly either come to think of it - OBL says quite clearly in the tape that it is US froeign policy that is the cause of any previous or future attacks, regardless of the POTUS.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by Frank777
I think he should have excused himself earlier, but when someone told me on the morning of Sept. 11 that a plane had struck a building in New York, I didn't get the significance of it at first either. What a load. He's the President of the United States not a regular Canadian citizen. I think there's a little bit of a difference there responsibility wise don't you think? Get real.

One plane had already hit the world's most important financial center,which Bush already knew about, and you're telling us that when they told Bush a second plane had hit the other tower the best thing to do was to remain calm, and stay put and go ahead with the photo-op? Please.

I'd like to think the secret service kicked into a higher gear, began considering all possibilities and making the necessary calls after the first plane hit. When the second one hit, the obvious thing to do would have been to tell the Prez and then he should've at the very least excused himself and grabbed his phone.

Excusing himself should've been the least of his concerns. "The President needs to take this call, please excuse me"......simple.
This is the Commander in Chief, give me a break.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Gilsch
What a load. He's the President of the United States not a regular Canadian citizen. I think there's a little bit of a difference there responsibility wise don't you think? Get real.

One plane had already hit the world's most important financial center,which Bush already knew about, and you're telling us that when they told Bush a second plane had hit the other tower the best thing to do was to remain calm, and stay put and go ahead with the photo-op? Please.

I'd like to think the secret service kicked into a higher gear, began considering all possibilities and making the necessary calls after the first plane hit. When the second one hit, the obvious thing to do would have been to tell the Prez and then he should've at the very least excused himself and grabbed his phone.

Excusing himself should've been the least of his concerns. "The President needs to take this call, please excuse me"......simple.
This is the Commander in Chief, give me a break.

They knew that planes had been hijacked way before the planes hit.

Frank's argument hinges on the disinfo that the first realisation was during the goat-reading,

It wasn't.

[Frank777]

It has been awhile since I looking at the Sept. 11 timeline, and I honestly can't remember.
Was Bush informed of the hijacking prior to stepping into the classroom?

[Anders]

Originally posted by segovius
They knew that planes had been hijacked way before the planes hit.

Not according to Clarke, who I take as the high authority on this.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Anders
Not according to Clarke, who I take as the high authority on this.

Well, for you and Frank from Timeline.net (http://www.911timeline.net/)

8:21 a.m.: Betty Ong, a flight attendant on American Airlines Flight 11, calls Vanessa Minter at American Airlines reservations from the seatback phone. "She said two flight attendants had been stabbed, one was on oxygen," said the manager on duty. "A passenger had his throat slashed and looked dead and they had gotten into the cockpit." She identifies the seats of the hijackers and confirms that the plane is descending.


So that's confirmation of hijack and murder at 8:21.

8:25 a.m.: Boston air traffic control notified several air traffic control centers that a hijack is in progress with American Airlines Flight 11.

It's official 4 minutes later.

8:32 a.m.: Bush’s motorcade leaves The Colony Beach and Tennis Resort on Longboat Key, Florida for Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota.

7 Minutes later Bush sets out (11 minutes after the first message).

8:46:26 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 11 impacts the north side of the North Tower.

14 minutes after hijacking is confirmed.

8:51 a.m.: Bush arrives at Emma E. Booker Elementary School.

19 minutes after hijacking is confirmed. 5 mins after plane hits tower.

Btw - Bush claims to have seen this plane hit tower on TV as it happened. It wasn;t on TV then and he was in the motorcade.

9:02:54 a.m.: Second Plane hits.

30 minutes after hijacking is confirmed. 16 mins after first plane hits tower.

9:05 a.m.: Andrew Card walks up to Bush while he is listening to Goat Story

Bush was told 33 minutes and two planes after hijacking confirmed.

Either he knew before Card told him in class (I would think he would have been told in the motorcade) or there's a problem.

[Gon]

Originally posted by segovius
When did he ever take credit for influencing Spain ?

I think your #2 can safely be struck off.

#1 doesn't fly either come to think of it - OBL says quite clearly in the tape that it is US froeign policy that is the cause of any previous or future attacks, regardless of the POTUS. I think Frank777 is about right about both #1 and #2, and you are correct in that Osama says it is ultimately about foreign policy.

He is an intelligent guy, and certainly taking lessons from GWB. What he does is to let each group of people hear a message tailored for them. All he has to do is to include both anti-neocon and anti-liberal points in his speech, and the US news orgs will pick up the ones that suit their respective agendas. The GWB administration uses the same tactic with the likes of Fox News. If some news shows them wrong or doesn't fit their agenda, they will just issue a contradicting statement without evidence right after the real news surface - it can be something they later dismiss as casual theorizing - yet it is the latter news that Fox picks up.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Gon
I think Frank777 is about right about both #1 and #2, and you are correct in that Osama says it is ultimately about foreign policy.

He is an intelligent guy, and certainly taking lessons from GWB. What he does is to let each group of people hear a message tailored for them. All he has to do is to include both anti-neocon and anti-liberal points in his speech, and the US news orgs will pick up the ones that suit their respective agendas. The GWB administration uses the same tactic with the likes of Fox News. If some news shows them wrong or doesn't fit their agenda, they will just issue a contradicting statement without evidence right after the real news surface - it can be something they later dismiss as casual theorizing - yet it is the latter news that Fox picks up.

A great analysis, I think you may have something here.

The Islamists certainly do seem to have adopted a policy of 'copying' the US - from Abu Ghraib jumpsuits to the adoption of this 'freedom' line which is something OBL has never utilised before.

I'm still not 100% on this tape though. They've been proved to have faked them before. Looks more genuine than not though,

[Anders]

Originally posted by segovius
They knew that planes had been hijacked way before the planes hit.

Who are "they" in this post? Air control or the president?

[jimmac]

Originally posted by NaplesX
It hard to argue about this when OBL did everything but hold a Kerry Edwards sign.

I think he got the DNC talking points.


Actually what he has done has gone a long way to support Bush. Without Osama Bush wouldn't have 911 to lean on for support of his programs.;)

[segovius]

Originally posted by Anders
Who are "they" in this post? Air control or the president?

People who are charged with protecting the citizens. Specifically I suppose you have to say NORAD.

Air control passed the information on to NORAD as they were required to do. Whether NORAD had any duty to pass this on to the SS or the President I don't know.

But you'd like to think they did wouldn't you ?

[jimmac]

Originally posted by NaplesX
What about the whole idea that the October surprise would be a sudden announcement of his capture, being that they had him in custody all this time?

Where is that rise in the terror alert? Even after this?

Were you wrong about Bush? Are you willing to admit it?

I am sure your answer is no.

Because as stupid as Bush is he knows it's too late for something like that.

[segovius]

Originally posted by jimmac
Because as stupid as Bush is he knows it's too late for something like that.

I'm not sure Bush is stupid.

At any rate his advisors and back-room staff certainly aren't.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by segovius
People who are charged with protecting the citizens. Specifically I suppose you have to say NORAD.

Air control passed the information on to NORAD as they were required to do. Whether NORAD had any duty to pass this on to the SS or the President I don't know.

But you'd like to think they did wouldn't you ?

I'm sure the Prez of the USA is briefed on what to do in case of an emergency, or a potential emergency.

You (his people) call the Pentagon. The Pentagon calls Norad. After the first plane hit there should've been immediate ongoing contact with the Pentagon/Rummy or Rice. Anything unusual about it? Do we have any idea how it happened? Terrorism? Bin Laden? (<--- remember the August 6th PDB?)

If that timeline is correct, Bush should've been rushed to the secure location if not AF1 and not continued on with the photo-op.

[Northgate]

Originally posted by NaplesX
It hard to argue about this when OBL did everything but hold a Kerry Edwards sign.

I think he got the DNC talking points.

If George Bush had done his job you wouldn't have had this golden opportunity to be a dick.

[Northgate]

An update on the Bush rules of engagement. From AFP ...

Speaking to reporters outside the campaign rally here, White House communications director Dan Bartlett said that the tape should not affect the way Bush campaigns but that Kerry should have marked a 12-hour truce.

"You would think that there would be a, maybe, 12 hours to let the American absorb what has just happened today," he said.


Prodded on why, if the tape ought not to affect the campaign, Kerry should have stopped criticizing the president, Bartlett revised his statement, saying that the problem was that Kerry's attack had been "discredited."

There's nothing, it seems, they won't game. These people are un-fucking-believable. 12 hour moratorium. Fuck you!

[Anders]

I saw Kerry and Bush come down from each their planes and say almost the exact same thing in the same order at CNN. If you have access to the online video at CNN try check it out. There is no doubt that one called the other and agreed to do it that way.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Northgate
An update on the Bush rules of engagement. From AFP ...

[/size]

There's nothing, it seems, they won't game. These people are un-fucking-believable. 12 hour moratorium. Fuck you! [/B]

Unbelievable.

There was this Bush aide type guy on the BBC yesterday just after the news broke of the tape who tried this classic piece of BS:

"Osama wanted to do what he did in Spain at the US elections - because he couldn't he had to send this message, It was the best he could do.

Therefore we are winning the WOT and this tape represents an awesome victory (his words) because al-Qaeda has been neutralised and all tey can do is send tapes rather than bombs. This proves we are winning the WOT."

Pathetic

:no:

[Northgate]

A VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY IS A VOTE FOR OSAMA BIN LADEN!

They mean it. They imply it. They insist you to believe it.

[giant]

Originally posted by Anders
I saw Kerry and Bush come down from each their planes and say almost the exact same thing in the same order at CNN. If you have access to the online video at CNN try check it out. There is no doubt that one called the other and agreed to do it that way.
TPM comment: Which of these two statements sounds like it comes from the stronger leader?

John Kerry: In response to this tape from Osama bin Laden, let me make it clear, crystal clear. As Americans, we are absolutely united in our determination to hunt down and destroy Osama bin Laden and the terrorists. They are barbarians. And I will stop at absolutely nothing to hunt down, capture or kill the terrorists wherever they are, whatever it takes. Period.

George W. Bush: Earlier today I was informed of the tape that is now being analyzed by America's intelligence community. Let me make this very clear: Americans will not be intimidated or influenced by an enemy of our country. I'm sure Senator Kerry agrees with this. I also want to say to the American people that we're at war with these terrorists and I am confident that we will prevail.

[giant]

Oh, and Bush guys call osama tape 'a little gift.'

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/247753p-212149c.html

Isn't it wonderful that they want osama to directly influence US politics?

[segovius]

Originally posted by giant
TPM comment: Which of these two statements sounds like it comes from the stronger leader?

John Kerry: In response to this tape from Osama bin Laden, let me make it clear, crystal clear. As Americans, we are absolutely united in our determination to hunt down and destroy Osama bin Laden and the terrorists. They are barbarians. And I will stop at absolutely nothing to hunt down, capture or kill the terrorists wherever they are, whatever it takes. Period.

George W. Bush: Earlier today I was informed of the tape that is now being analyzed by America's intelligence community. Let me make this very clear: Americans will not be intimidated or influenced by an enemy of our country. I'm sure Senator Kerry agrees with this. I also want to say to the American people that we're at war with these terrorists and I am confident that we will prevail.

The Kerry quote sounds ok but it isn't true is it ?

America is clearly not united in such a determination - far from it in the White House. That's why Osama is on the loose and able to send such tapes at will.

[giant]

We americans are united in it. It's just the nuts in the bush admin that apparently have other priorities.

[Aurora]

Kerrys answer was better...... George did wander off what should have been his #1 Focus. Kerry isnt going to be so nice. He didnt get the silver star and bronze for nothing. The extremist republican zealots would like us to think they just hand those things out to whoever wants one.... He got it for killing the enemy thank you. Lets elect a president who is in touch with reality. George's 4 years have not impressed and since he has no idea what a VETO is we need a president to put the brakes on congress.

[Anders]

Oh come on. They said the exact same thing :rolleyes:

[midwinter]

Originally posted by dmz
Too bad W didn't give that ragheaded c**ksucker the pleasure. GWB knew exactly what he was doing.

I ask again: Did you just call OBL a "raghead"?

[Akumulator]

Originally posted by Anders
Oh come on. They said the exact same thing :rolleyes:

I think there's a good chance that they talked to each other and decided that they wouldn't let Osama sway the election at all. So they just said the same thing and tried to put the thing to rest.

[Anders]

Originally posted by giant
Oh, and Bush guys call osama tape 'a little gift.'

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/247753p-212149c.html

Isn't it wonderful that they want osama to directly influence US politics?

Its you who are using it that way. Its you who is is trying to spin the tape your way :rolleyes:

That article doesn´t say the GOP will USE Osamas tape in any way. It say that its an external factor that works for Bush, no matter if he use active or not. Just like new unemployment figures work for Kerry no matter if he use them or not.

And finally. I am so tired that "my side" use arguments like yours. Its just not a honest debate. Its natural to expect it from an opponent of ones views (thats how the mind works) but when its so blatant from democratic leaning posters I can´t´help getting disappointed. In the discussion between honest and strategic arguments by the two sides this shows that it isn´t one side doing the first and the other doing the second. And that makes the attempt to have a fair exchange of ideas futile.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by Anders
Its you who are using it that way. Its you who is is trying to spin the tape your way :rolleyes:

That article doesn´t say the GOP will USE Osamas tape in any way. It say that its an external factor that works for Bush, no matter if he use active or not. Just like new unemployment figures work for Kerry no matter if he use them or not.

And finally. I am so tired that "my side" use arguments like yours. Its just not a honest debate. Its natural to expect it from an opponent of ones views (thats how the mind works) but when its so blatant from democratic leaning posters I can´t´help getting disappointed. In the discussion between honest and strategic arguments by the two sides this shows that it isn´t one side doing the first and the other doing the second. And that makes the attempt to have a fair exchange of ideas futile. Get over it . . .

when 'their side' says quite blatantly that they want the American people to be thinking 'Terrorism for the last four days" of this election, what they are saying is they want us to be afraid for the next four days of this election . . . that is disgusting. Any opportunistic bunch of fear-mongers like that don't deserve to be president or in power at all.

[Anders]

Originally posted by pfflam
Get over it . . .

when 'their side' says quite blatantly that they want the American people to be thinking 'Terrorism for the last four days" of this election, what they are saying is they want us to be afraid for the next four days of this election . . . that is disgusting. Any opportunistic bunch of fear-mongers like that don't deserve to be president or in power at all.

That wasn´t what I was addressing but if you want ignore what I wrote please feel free to do so and let the debate go even further down south.

Of course they want you to think terrorism and be afraid about that because its where Bush has an advantage in the perception of the american people (In reality his policy will make us all less secure on the long haul but thats for another discussion).

And of course Kerry wants you to think unemployment, lack of health care etc. and let you be afraid of that because thats where he is strongest in the eyes of the population.

In that game noone is better than the other. I just think if you peel all the rhetoric and strategy away Kerrys policy is better for US and the world. But right now I can´t have other feelings than disgust for the process and discussions leading up to the election of the leader of the worlds second largest "democracy"

[giant]

Originally posted by Anders
Its you who are using it that way. Its you who is is trying to spin the tape your way
"little gift" were his words, not mine. I don't need to spin it any one way or the other. He said the osama tape is a 'little gift.'

Another quote from the article:
"We want people to think 'terrorism' for the last four days," said a Bush-Cheney campaign official. "And anything that raises the issue in people's minds is good for us."
They might as well send him a thank you note.

Sorry, anders, but you are just wrong. Not least of the reasons is that you've bought into the new illusion of empirical relativism in large scale global events, thus making you believe that the facts all have two sides and therefore my position on them gives you some sort of clue about what I think about politics. In case you are wondering, I am big pro-free market, pro-supplyside ethically but pro gov't spending/demand side for real effect, pro-pinochet, socially libertarian. Meaning I'm probably more politically right than the people that pretend to be on AO.

Finally, let's return to what appears to be the center of your problem with my post:
That article doesn´t say the GOP will USE Osamas tape in any way.
Really? Neither did I. So what are you attacking me about?

[giant]

After all, can't you understand why an american would be pissed about this administration being grateful for the osama tape when it was this administration's crap that is the reasons he's still alive?

[pfflam]

Originally posted by Anders
That wasn´t what I was addressing but if you want ignore what I wrote please feel free to do so and let the debate go even further down south.

Of course they want you to think terrorism and be afraid about that because its where Bush has an advantage in the perception of the american people (In reality his policy will make us all less secure on the long haul but thats for another discussion).

And of course Kerry wants you to think unemployment, lack of health care etc. and let you be afraid of that because thats where he is strongest in the eyes of the population.

In that game noone is better than the other. I just think if you peel all the rhetoric and strategy away Kerrys policy is better for US and the world. But right now I can´t have other feelings than disgust for the process and discussions leading up to the election of the leader of the worlds second largest "democracy" Its hard for me to think that concern over the outright misshandling of domestic politcies is fear-mongering.

I have heard this claim from right-wing oriented speakers a lot in the recent past: "Kerry is scarring you about jobs and the economy"
What I find so absurd about that is the fact that that attitude is not only wrong it is a bad attempt to stear people away from the real attempt by hte Rove machine to utilize fear as a campaign strategy . . .

Concern for better domestic policies is not fear mongering: thankfulness that OBL released a tape threatening more attacks IS fear-mongering.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by giant
After all, can't you understand why an american would be pissed about this administration being grateful for the osama tape when it was this administration's crap that is the reasons he's still alive? Yeah, it has nothing to do with chance or that he is a good evader.

Maybe they are grateful that Americans are remembering what the WOT is all about, remembering 9/11. I have never seen an act so horrendous forgotten so quickly. If Kerry wins tomorrow, it will be a distant memory, much like pearl harbor is now.

I am very saddened by the fact that 3000 people are so willingly swept under the rug, there families told that 9/11 was just a political act, not to be taken too seriously.

[giant]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Yeah, it has nothing to do with chance or that he is a good evader.
No, it doesn't. It has to do with a) rumsfeld's failed experiments and b) the bush admin's diversion of resources to Iraq.
I have never seen an act so horrendous forgotten so quickly.
Pretty shocking, isn't it? That's one of the reasons so many people are pissed about Iraq.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by giant
No, it doesn't. It has to do with a) rumsfeld's failed experiments and b) the bush admin's diversion of resources to Iraq.

Pretty shocking, isn't it? That's one of the reasons so many people are pissed about Iraq. Both of these statements are stupid and not very well thought out.

As for your second, I am a bit confused. Why would Iraq cause people to forget about 9/11? Can't you or your friends remember 9/11 while a conflict wages elsewhere. You see if that is why, then why are you not crying out for those conflicts in Sudan, Algeria, Nigeria, Sri Lanka, and Columbia to be ended as they are also a diversion to the WOT? US resources are being used there to help end those conflicts also. Do you want to hazard a guess at death toll as a result of those conflicts?

Really, a lot of conflicts and US intervention can be considered a diversion from previous wars and solutions, if we are to use your logic. Shouldn't we have finished Somalia before moving on to anywhere else. Go back even further, shouldn't we have finished Vietnam before moving on to something else.

And now that I think about it, there were some that thought that Afghanistan would bankrupt the country and would last decades. So really, even if Iraq takes a few years longer than expected, it is way better than what was predicted, just for Afghanistan. Wasn't it those same people that predicted 10's of thousands of Coalition deaths in the Iraqi deserts as a result of Chem/Bio? I would have to say that things are progressing much better in both places. Two brutal regimes for less then the price of one, no?

The whole Afghan situation also proves the 'diversion' theory wrong, IMO. We accomplished the mission there quickly and decisively. The Afghans have conducted a fair election and have a democracy in place. The Taliban is being methodically mopped up and their future looks good. For being a diversion, Iraq has not stopped progress in Afghanistan, IMO.

This argument falls apart after a bit of reasoning, IMO.

[giant]

Originally posted by NaplesX
The whole Afghan situation also proves the 'diversion' theory wrong, IMO.
It's not a theory. It's a fact.

[Powerdoc]

I have heard an interesting interview of a french communication advisor who used to work for Bush senior.

His opinion was, that this tape will change nothing. The shift between Bush and Kerry supporter is too huge :

- For Bush supporter this video prove that the security under Bush is fine : OBL canno't attack anymore US, he can just make harmless video.

- For Kerry supporter or Bush haters, this video prove that OBL is still alive and in a good shape contrary to what have claimed Bush admin. It's a proof that Bush's adimin have failed to catch him and punish him.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by NaplesX
As for your second, I am a bit confused.

Giant was making a joke at your expense. It was a pretty clever one, too.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
I have heard an interesting interview of a french communication advisor who used to work for Bush senior.

His opinion was, that this tape will change nothing. The shift between Bush and Kerry supporter is too huge :

- For Bush supporter this video prove that the security under Bush is fine : OBL canno't attack anymore US, he can just make harmless video.

- For Kerry supporter or Bush haters, this video prove that OBL is still alive and in a good shape contrary to what have claimed Bush admin. It's a proof that Bush's adimin have failed to catch him and punish him.

I think that's pretty much spot-on. Even Fox News are calling it even and I heard the same interview I think - he said also that any more 'surprises' wouldn't change much. Basically it didn't hurt Bush but he didn't gain much from it either.

One thing though - those who say that this tape means America is safe are being very, very foolish and very, very hypocritical.

If it's safe then the WOT is over. But it isn't - painting OBL as neutralised is very dangerous (for them) imo.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by giant
It's not a theory. It's a fact. What no names?

Are you feeling OK?

[giant]

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time I called you a name?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by giant
Just out of curiosity, when was the last time I called you a name? It may have been a while, now that you bring it up. I am not sure how long it has been since you impugned my education and intelligence and/or motives, but hey who's counting. I figured it was par for this course. Maybe that has changed. Cool beans.

You know reading this thread has been a pleasant surprise as far as your posts are concerned. Good to see that things are working out in 'civilized conversation' arena. I may have to reevaluate my odium for you. :)

What happened? If I may be so bold.

[giant]

Originally posted by NaplesX
It may have been a while, now that you bring it up.
OK, and when was the last time you called someone a name, like "Mr. Poopy-head", "know-it-all liberal leprechaun", "hind hovel" (actual quotes) or any variation thereof? A day or two?

In other words, people who live in glass houses...

[Powerdoc]

Naples X and Giant : I am happy to see some civil talks around here. I will be glad if it continues that way.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by giant
OK, and when was the last time you called someone a name, like "Mr. Poopy-head" (actual quote) or any variation thereof?

In other words, people who live in glass houses... Come now. You mean to tell me that "Mr. Poopy-head" (actual quote) is a big insult in your neighborhood?

I hope not. You would hardly be able to turn on your TV, let alone watch this election cycle, if that was the case. :lol:

Forget watching BET or even MTV.... :wow:

I usually use "Poopy Face" or "Poopy Pants" and rarely "Poopy Head". That is like the worst. The "Face" is bad, but the whole "Head"... that is BAD.

However, I could tone it down a bit with something like "excrement nose" or "Squishy Drawers" or something. :D

[giant]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
Naples X and Giant : I am happy to see some civil talks around here. I will be glad if it continues that way.
I would, too, and that's why I reported his post, powerdoc.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by giant
I would, too, and that's why I reported his post, powerdoc.

I am happy to see that we both agree. Let's expect that a third person will soon agree to.

[crazychester]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Yeah, it has nothing to do with chance or that he is a good evader.

Maybe they are grateful that Americans are remembering what the WOT is all about, remembering 9/11. I have never seen an act so horrendous forgotten so quickly. If Kerry wins tomorrow, it will be a distant memory, much like pearl harbor is now.

I am very saddened by the fact that 3000 people are so willingly swept under the rug, there families told that 9/11 was just a political act, not to be taken too seriously.
What we have here is an excellent example of righteous indignation being used to conceal, what's known in common parlance as a big steaming pile of bullshit. Just like your president, you need to learn that just spouting words doesn't make them true.

So put up or shut up. On what do you base this claim that 9/11 has been forgotten so quickly? That those who perished have been swept under the rug? Who's forgotten? Who swept them under the rug? Who said it was a political act not to be taken seriously?

You're making some fairly damning criticisms of your fellow country men and women in this post. I think you should at least provide some evidence to back up your comments.

AFAIC, posts like these are far worse than any ad hominen I've ever seen. You are breathtakingly insulting to your fellow Americans without anymore evidence than your own precious outrage to back up your comments. As if that isn't bad enough, you then use the deaths of 3,000 of your fellow citizens to bolster what was a poisonous, hateful opinion all along.

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
I am happy to see that we both agree. Let's expect that a third person will soon agree to. Read my posts, I am way ahead of you.

To clarify: I also agree.

This has got to be a celebrated day, we AGREE. Much like the celebration scene at the end of "Return of the Jedi". I am picturing Ewoks running amuck.

Picture:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/ewok/img/movie_bg.jpg

[crazychester]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
I am happy to see that we both agree. Let's expect that a third person will soon agree to.
Sorry Powerdoc I wasn't reading the script while typing my reply.

I stand by every word.

[bunge]

...is hairy.

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by crazychester
Sorry Powerdoc I wasn't reading the script while typing my reply.

I stand by every word.

Well I am not here Crazychester to kill the discussion, but for enhancing civil discussion and to make stop, personal attacks.

Otherwise anyone is free to react to any post, the way she wants

Edited for Crazychester, but was it mandatory to use she instead of he ? :p

[crazychester]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
the way he want.
the way she wants.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by crazychester
What we have here is an excellent example of righteous indignation being used to conceal, what's known in common parlance as a big steaming pile of bullshit. Just like your president, you need to learn that just spouting words doesn't make them true.

So put up or shut up. On what do you base this claim that 9/11 has been forgotten so quickly? That those who perished have been swept under the rug? Who's forgotten? Who swept them under the rug? Who said it was a political act not to be taken seriously?

You're making some fairly damning criticisms of your fellow country men and women in this post. I think you should at least provide some evidence to back up your comments.

AFAIC, posts like these are far worse than any ad hominen I've ever seen. You are breathtakingly insulting to your fellow Americans without anymore evidence than your own precious outrage to back up your comments. As if that isn't bad enough, you then use the deaths of 3,000 of your fellow citizens to bolster what was a poisonous, hateful opinion all along.

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. Come on, man. Snap out of it.

CC do you feel the same about Kerry and his insults on those that were protecting your freedoms? Ok so I don't know where you hail from... How about the attacks on all soldiers over the Abu-Graib mess? How about the insults on our black population that assume that they are too stupid to figure out an election ballot? How about the insults that you spew at those who disagree with you or who are on the other side of the political or ideological isle? How about we talk about the litany of insults thrown at the President of the United States, George W. Bush? These are all in the same category, no?

I hope you also express your outrage at those and the many more insulting circumstances. I anxiously await the plethora of new threads on those topics...

In the meantime, I will reply to the question that underlies your angry (and misdirected IMO) post, Namely:

"What is your proof that 9/11 is forgotten or swept under the rug?" (My interpretation)

Look at the news coverage, look at this election. Roughly half of the US population (extrapolated from likely voters) buy into the "kinder gentler" "global test" approach to the WOT as opposed to GWB's approach. I am not implying that either approach is wrong, just that it seems that half of America would rather focus on blaming Bush for the world's woes.

Bush is human, and as such he is prone to mistakes. Much like the rest of us. So I am not certain that blaming him for the reduction in fresh water pigmy shrimp will do anything about terrorism, which is, if you're honest, THE REAL ISSUE of our day.

[giant]

hotlinking images is considered in bad form.

[giant]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Roughly half of the US population (extrapolated from likely voters) buy into the "kinder gentler" "global test" approach to the WOT as opposed to GWB's approach.
:no:

I can't believe you actually posted this.

[shetline]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Look at the news coverage, look at this election. Roughly half of the US population (extrapolated from likely voters) buy into the "kinder gentler" "global test" approach to the WOT as opposed to GWB's approach.
As opposed to the "tough-guy", "incompetently invade the wrong country and create a haven for terrorists in the bloody aftermath" approach that the other half supports? :D

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by giant
hotlinking images is considered in bad form. Really? By whom?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by shetline
As opposed to the "tough-guy", "incompetently invade the wrong country and create a haven for terrorists in the bloody aftermath" approach that the other half supports? :D You did read the whole post, no?

I was not trashing either side.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Really? By whom?

It's common netiquette, hotlinking pictures like that saps bandwidth for that user who then has to deal with hundreds more people having the load that image off their server. Granted, a lot of people don't care about this, and even many people who preach it don't necessarily always follow through, and also, you linked from starwars.com which I'm sure has more than its share of bandwidth, as they likely have a very high daily traffic. BUT generally if you have web space, it's a courtesy to host images off your own space rather than use others.

think of it this way, how would you feel if someone on fark or /. linked an image from your site, it got a million hits, causing you to either have to pay heinous bandwidth charges, or forcing your site off-line for an indefinite period of time, because of the constant bandwidth drainage.

I thought you were a web designer or something, shouldn't you know this?

[giant]

In fact, it reminded me to check my logs and lo and behold, someone was hotlinking an image I have on one of my sites. I had a few hundred hits on just that image every day for the past couple of days because someone posted it in a forum.

[crazychester]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Come on, man. Snap out of it.

CC do you feel the same about Kerry and his insults on those that were protecting your freedoms? Ok so I don't know where you hail from... How about the attacks on all soldiers over the Abu-Graib mess? How about the insults on our black population that assume that they are too stupid to figure out an election ballot? How about the insults that you spew at those who disagree with you or who are on the other side of the political or ideological isle? How about we talk about the litany of insults thrown at the President of the United States, George W. Bush? These are all in the same category, no?

I hope you also express your outrage at those and the many more insulting circumstances. I anxiously await the plethora of new threads on those topics...

In the meantime, I will reply to the question that underlies your angry (and misdirected IMO) post, Namely:
I'm not buying into your game of dodge and weave. You'll have to go play with someone else.


"What is your proof that 9/11 is forgotten or swept under the rug?" (My interpretation)

Look at the news coverage, look at this election. Roughly half of the US population (extrapolated from likely voters) buy into the "kinder gentler" "global test" approach to the WOT as opposed to GWB's approach. I am not implying that either approach is wrong, just that it seems that half of America would rather focus on blaming Bush for the world's woes.

Bush is human, and as such he is prone to mistakes. Much like the rest of us. So I am not certain that blaming him for the reduction in fresh water pigmy shrimp will do anything about terrorism, which is, if you're honest, THE REAL ISSUE of our day.
Well let me tell you what I see when I look at your country. I see a population that has been deeply affected by a very great tragedy. I see a population that is divided as to how to deal with the causes of that tragedy and it's consequences. What I don't see is a population who has forgotten or who desires to sweep it all under the carpet. If those people do exist, they must be very, very rare because I don't recall ever noticing any of them. When people blame Bush I do not see this as indicating they have forgotten 9/11 or that they seek to trivialize it. When people attack Kerry's approach, I do not see them as having forgotten 9/11 or trying to sweep it under the rug.

I do not see you or dmz or Trumpty or SDW or Scott as having forgotten 9/11 anymore than I see bunge or giant or midwinter or Akumulator or pfflam doing so. I do not see either the right or the left as having some sort of monopoly on the memory of what happened or on the depth of their feeling about the events of 9/11.

I see, for all the difference in your views, a bunch of people who have been equally traumatized by an unspeakable act of violence.

Perhaps you should spend some time asking yourself why you don't see that too.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Wrong Robot
It's common netiquette, hotlinking pictures like that saps bandwidth for that user who then has to deal with hundreds more people having the load that image off their server. Granted, a lot of people don't care about this, and even many people who preach it don't necessarily always follow through, and also, you linked from starwars.com which I'm sure has more than its share of bandwidth, as they likely have a very high daily traffic. BUT generally if you have web space, it's a courtesy to host images off your own space rather than use others.

think of it this way, how would you feel if someone on fark or /. linked an image from your site, it got a million hits, causing you to either have to pay heinous bandwidth charges, or forcing your site off-line for an indefinite period of time, because of the constant bandwidth drainage.

I thought you were a web designer or something, shouldn't you know this? Of course, I realize this as I work for an Internet provider. We are a small yet growing one and this has never even come up in conversations as it is really not an issue.

Now if you are worried about www.starwars.com don't. It would take 1M new people to hit it at the exact same time to cause bad things as a result of dling that pic. In which case it would take 44,000 minutes to serve all of them, of course the picture would just timeout in most cases. Assuming they are hooked to a T3.

But let's say a million people hit that picture over an day's time, that's 3,888,000,000,000 bits of info or 3.8 trillion bites. Anyway... the chances of getting 1M people to visit the same site in the same day for the first time is very slim.

Most browsers cache images so you may only download that picture once despite visiting the same page/site 100's of times.

But hey, I will make a link.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Of course, I realize this as I work for an Internet provider. We are a small yet growing one and this has never even come up in conversations as it is really not an issue.

Now if you are worried about www.starwars.com don't. It would take 1M new people to hit it at the exact same time to cause bad things as a result of dling that pic. In which case it would take 44,000 minutes to serve all of them, of course the picture would just timeout in most cases. Assuming they are hooked to a T3.

But let's say a million people hit that picture over an day's time, that's 3,888,000,000,000 bits of info or 3.8 trillion bites. Anyway... the chances of getting 1M people to visit the same site in the same day for the first time is very slim.

Most browsers cache images so you may only download that picture once despite visiting the same page/site 100's of times.

But hey, I will make a link.


As I said, in this particular instance it doesn't matter.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by crazychester
I do not see you or dmz or Trumpty or SDW or Scott as having forgotten 9/11 anymore than I see bunge or giant or midwinter or Akumulator or pfflam doing so. I do not see either the right or the left as having some sort of monopoly on the memory of what happened or on the depth of their feeling about the events of 9/11.

I see, for all the difference in your views, a bunch of people who have been equally traumatized by an unspeakable act of violence.

Perhaps you should spend some time asking yourself why you don't see that too. Nor do most people in PO. I would have to say that most here seem to be up on world affairs. But I stated no such monopoly.

I am stating what I have observed. I know that you question my sanity/knowledge/intellect/insert-whatever-here, but the fact remains I live here. I see people everyday that want to forget 9/11. We are a lazy lot here in the US. If we have pain we take a pill, if we have a craving for something we trot down to the local 7/11 and get some. If we don't like our bodies we get a boob job or a penis implant. If we don't like reality we blame someone in charge. If memories are bad we just don't talk about them.

Just like my previous post, I do not attribute these traits to everyone. But, that does not mean it isn't a trend. Let's not blow this out of proportion, OK?

[bunge]

NaplesX,

It's a choice of principle. On principle, you shouldn't hot link.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by bunge
NaplesX,

It's a choice of principle. On principle, you shouldn't hot link. I changed it to a link. I really didn't think about it when I posted it, bit I have now changed it.

Cool?