Being Big and Tough

[Fellowship]

I ask you all does the following resonate,,,

Has America bought into this notion of "Being big and tough"?

With the automobile we see in America that America has traded practicality, for image and "toughness" We have huge Trucks and SUV's.

We have the governor of CalEEEEfornia and we are expected to be impressed with his "tough guy" persona.

I mean look at people driving Hummers on the civilian streets. Are we a nation which glorifies war and toughness?

America has the ability to install democracy (nationbuild) just because we can. We are "tough" once again and we are to be impressed?

Americans are so so so tough!!

We look at the French and many make insults at their culture. Why?

We belittle the french and their " wine, cheese, pastries and coffee" while we go down to the local All You Can Eat Buffet and stuff our big and tough selves.

***Yes I have generalized some there*** but I think you get the point.

Americans eat more
Drive bigger cars
Vote for tough-like people such as the Gov of CA.
It seems that many Americans cheer on wars we go to like it is a sport.
GO TEAM!!!!

Is all this selfish, pigheaded, tough guy, force filled sportism really wise?

Have we relegated all people "other than republicans" Liberals?

Are democrats nothing more than "wimps" who are so weak that they need a gov't handout?

Does Republican equal "Big and Tough" ???


I am just asking questions here... To me it seems Americans have traded wisdom for brute force. Traded class for trash. Traded quality for mass-production. Traded critical thinking with "staying the course".


Your thoughts,

Fellowship

[FormerLurker]

Election 2004: Fear and Ignorance Rule

[Anna Mated]

I'd vote for fellowship :)

[Jubelum]

Strength is good.

I think the metrosexual, queer-eye, spineless thing is heading out. Most of the women I know have moved beyond the "90's guy" thing a long time ago.

It's instinct. We can try and try, but we are not programmed to gravitate toward weakness, compromise, and consensus at self-expense.

"People are beginning to see that the first requisite to success in life is to be a good animal." - Herbert Spencer

Sorry. It's the way it is. No matter how hard we try to intellectualise it.

[Jubelum]

Election 2004: The people have spoken. Get over it.

[DanMacMan]

Peace through strength works.

[FormerLurker]

Originally posted by Jubelum
Strength is good.

I think the metrosexual, queer-eye, spineless thing is heading out. Most of the women I know have moved beyond the "90's guy" thing a long time ago.

It's instinct. We can try and try, but we are not programmed to gravitate toward weakness, compromise, and consensus at self-expense.

"People are beginning to see that the first requisite to success in life is to be a good animal." - Herbert Spencer

Sorry. It's the way it is. No matter how hard we try to intellectualise it. Law of the jungle! Only the strong survive! Compromise and consensus are for losers!

So much for compassionate conservatism!
Jesus would be soooo proud.... :no:

[rageous]

Originally posted by Fellowship
I ask you all does the following resonate,,,

Has America bought into this notion of "Being big and tough"?

With the automobile we see in America that America has traded practicality, for image and "toughness" We have huge Trucks and SUV's.

We have huge tracks and SUVs because we can have hughe trucks and SUVs. In America, the market (aka the population) determines what is successful and what is not. For the most part the government stays out of it. As they should. We are free to do things, be they for the greater good or our eventual peril.

We have the governor of CalEEEEfornia and we are expected to be impressed with his "tough guy" persona.

I mean look at people driving Hummers on the civilian streets. Are we a nation which glorifies war and toughness?

Interesting you would mock Schwarzenegger here, and then cry about people disrepecting the French later. But I will get to that...

Also, buying a hummer does not glorify war. It makes people feel tough, I'll totally agree to that. But you are making a complete stretch when you claim buying a Hummer is war glorification. It's purcgasing an automobile of one's own choosing, for their own selfish reasons.

America has the ability to install democracy (nationbuild) just because we can. We are "tough" once again and we are to be impressed?

Americans are so so so tough!!

The only people I hear talking about "toughness" are people not supporting Bush. Those who have supposrted him do so because they believe the cause is more noble than this superficiality you think exists. You can debates the merits of their beliefs all you want, but try and refrain from blanket assumptions.

We look at the French and many make insults at their culture. Why?

Because they insult us to the point of making many people despise them? Surely a lot of the dislike stems from the fact that the French openly oppose Bush, and Bush supporters take that to be an open opposition to them. But is that wrong? When people choose representatives, they do so with the understanding that that person is an extension of their views. When the representatives views get attack, their views get attacked. We've had endless battles about the validity of the opposition, but in the end that's not the issue. Because when people vote for people who they feel represents them, they are not wrong. You can't be wrong when you vote for someone. It's right or right.

We belittle the french and their " wine, cheese, pastries and coffee" while we go down to the local All You Can Eat Buffet and stuff our big and tough selves.

***Yes I have generalized some there*** but I think you get the point.

Yes, and they belittle us too. Big fucking deal. People belittling people, OMGRUNFORCOVER!

Americans eat more
Drive bigger cars
Vote for tough-like people such as the Gov of CA.
It seems that many Americans cheer on wars we go to like it is a sport.
GO TEAM!!!!

And we also oppose the people we think have a team mentality with an equally fervent team mentality. That is the unfortunate byproduct of a two party system.

Is all this selfish, pigheaded, tough guy, force filled sportism really wise?

If you believe it to be as pessimistic as you obviously do, no. For those that are more optimistic about things, yes.

Have we relegated all people "other than republicans" Liberals?

Are democrats nothing more than "wimps" who are so weak that they need a gov't handout?

Does Republican equal "Big and Tough" ???

It's getting a little bitter now, so I'm not going to get into it. Maybe life isn't as dire as it looks right now. Maybe it is. Who knows?


I am just asking questions here... To me it seems Americans have traded wisdom for brute force. Traded class for trash. Traded quality for mass-production. Traded critical thinking with "staying the course".

And to many Americans, and apparently the majority of them, they feel differently. They feel that force can be wise. The class for trash argument is a bit low and completely opinion based. Americans traded quality for mass-production LONG ago. And perhaps, just perhaps, staying the course may be the conclusion of critical thinking? Is that really hard to believe?


Your thoughts,

Fellowship

I respect your opinions, I truly do. But you've bought in a little too much to some of the more leftist positions that have been hammered home on these forums. You're buying into the mentality by re-electing Bush, Americans are egotistical trashy idiots that want to run roughshod over the planet with their SUVs. If you honestly believe that, that is fine with me. We need all kinds of viewpoints to make America work. But I would wish you'd actually have more faith in and less resentment towards your fellow citizens. If America were truly as blind and stupid as many want to think we are, we would have been a failed union long ago.

And I voted for John Kerry too.

- rageous

[Anna Mated]

Originally posted by Jubelum
Strength is good.

I think the metrosexual, queer-eye, spineless thing is heading out. Most of the women I know have moved beyond the "90's guy" thing a long time ago.

It's instinct. We can try and try, but we are not programmed to gravitate toward weakness, compromise, and consensus at self-expense.

"People are beginning to see that the first requisite to success in life is to be a good animal." - Herbert Spencer

Sorry. It's the way it is. No matter how hard we try to intellectualise it.

And they tell us Evolution is the cause of this mindset.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by Fellowship
I ask you all does the following resonate,,,

Has America bought into this notion of "Being big and tough"?


I doubt it. If that were true, precident would have followed the path of silly little things like electing whatever candidate for president happened to be taller.

With the automobile we see in America that America has traded practicality, for image and "toughness" We have huge Trucks and SUV's.

Actually the majority of the "tough" people driving those vehicles are "soccer moms." As a school teacher, I look at my miniscule Jeep Cherokee being dwarfed on all sides by the large number of Expeditions, Suburbans and so forth. All driven by 40+ year old women who want to drag everyone everywhere and feel safe while doing it. I believe your sister owns an SUV as well if I recall.

The other issue is to consider the changes of laws and how people react to them. My family, like most growing up, owned a car/station wagon and a truck. When we had to go somewhere to play as a family, we took the car. When we had to go help with some work anywhere, we all took the truck. All four children and two adults took the truck.

This would not be tolerated today. In California anyone below six years old or sixty pounds needs to be in a car seat. That means if you need to haul around several people while also doing some work, specifically towing or hauling of any sort, you must purchase an SUV.

We have the governor of CalEEEEfornia and we are expected to be impressed with his "tough guy" persona.

I mean look at people driving Hummers on the civilian streets. Are we a nation which glorifies war and toughness?

Most bodybuilders, Arnold included often present themselves as people who used weightlifting to literally reshape themselves both inside and out. The ideal of being able to become more than you were very much resonates with Americans. I think people drive things like Hummers much like why you drive your car. You don't really race for a team or anything of that nature. You probably don't really ever drive beyond anything that would be considered close to the edge of control loss. But we have a sort of Walter Mitty type existance where we are horribly responsible while sometimes being able to imagine we are doing something horribly irresponsible and exciting.

America has the ability to install democracy (nationbuild) just because we can. We are "tough" once again and we are to be impressed?

Americans are so so so tough!!

I don't hear Germany or Japan complaining. Do you? We "build" nations because instead of leaving our enemies to die after we defeat them, we turn around and give them the greatest gift of all instead. Freedom and democracy.

We look at the French and many make insults at their culture. Why?

We belittle the french and their " wine, cheese, pastries and coffee" while we go down to the local All You Can Eat Buffet and stuff our big and tough selves.

Those would be called returning the insults, though I would prefer we not even do that.

I think many Americans have a bone to pick with any country that does not walk the walk while talking the talk. Most Americans find it unacceptable that France for example was willing to veto security action claiming the high ground while actually being bought off with money from the UN oil for food program. It is just is a bit galling.

Does Republican equal "Big and Tough" ???

I am just asking questions here... To me it seems Americans have traded wisdom for brute force. Traded class for trash. Traded quality for mass-production. Traded critical thinking with "staying the course".

I'm going to try to answer this without being too "out there."

I have two boys. I roughhouse with them quite a bit. This brings about an aggressive behavior but at the same time they learn how to apply it in appropriate amounts.

Tempered aggression is a very hard thing to convey. In life for example, the right amount makes someone driven. The wrong amount can make them abusive and violent. Too little leaves them passive and unable to achieve their responsibilities.

My boys will be men who would never dare raise a hand to their wives, yet be willing to die defending them the second a threat arose.

Some will argue that schooling them in any form of aggression turns them into a threat. They believe that any sort of aggression only brings more aggression. Yet being unwilling to yield a bus seat or demanding service at a counter is a form of aggression. It attacked the status quo. It is tempered aggression. Being able to pull it off without forgoing the tempering is very hard. It requires a lot of wisdom and critical thinking.

Bush is attacked for being willing to engage in any form of aggression. He is accused of overaggression. Passivity is also a mistake. In biblical terms it is just as much a sin. When we apply this in societal terms we might see both as wrong, but be much more likely to forgive one than the other.

Take my example earlier. Society deems us all equal, but the reality is that males are considered the expendible members of society. They are the ones who we declare must be placed in the circumstances where they are most likely to die or have violence occur.

A son, mine or yours no matter, is walking home with his wife late at night. A mugger appears and threatens the wife. Being wise the son gives the mugger any valuables they have however afterwards the mugger decides that a little rape of the wife is desired as well.

The son acts, fearing the welfare of the wife and also his own life. His aggression cannot be perfectly tempered, swings out of control and he ends up killing the mugger.

Killing the mugger might be a crime. He might even have to stand trial for it. Right or wrong, I know I could forgive my son for what he did. I know what was attempted. I know what I would have done myself.

If he did nothing then he would have committed no crime. Society would have no right to judge him and yet I believe it would though not in the legal sense. I question whether that level of passivity would be something I would ever view as right. While I should forgive it, I, being horribly human, doubt whether I would be capable of forgiving him for simply choosing to let his wife be harmed in such a horrible way.

In such instances we can argue about what legally might be right. We can argue about technicalities. But in the end, most of us know what we prefer in action and what we can forgive in aggression vs passivity in the people we expect to be our leaders.

BTW, I have to give you a little jab here at the end. Especially with so much indignation in that post. You mentioned big meals, and big wheels, but you forgot the biggest thing of all. Big houses. People are buying larger and larger houses. Much more space than the number of people in them truly need. They fill them up with big junk. Large televisions, stereos, electrical gadgets galore which consume evermore electricity.

I don't see many people here advocating 3-4 people living in a two bedroom house, 900-1000 sq. ft. house with a swamp cooler. Even though this easily would have satisfied their needs a generation ago. Instead, I see a lot of 2500 sq ft air conditioned McMansions, fully justified by the people living in them.

Nick

[tonton]

Originally posted by trumptman
As a school teacher, I look at my miniscule Jeep Cherokee :lol: being dwarfed on all sides by the large number of Expeditions, Suburbans and so forth. All driven by 40+ year old women who want to drag everyone everywhere and feel safe while doing it.

And if you and your ilk had nice little Jettas, those "soccer moms" would feel safe in their Volvo station wagons. And the world would be a better place. :)

[timmy o'tool]

Am I the only one who see logical thought, kindness to those who are not kind, helping those who cannot help themselves, working with friends even though we don't see eye to eye, and not looking for the easy way out as strengths.

[dmz]

I think you're setting up what may be more of a learned behavior response to the Skoal-ring, creased Wranglers, baseball cap, pickup truck thing that you see quite a bit more in Texas, then you would in, say, West Seattle. You may be generalizing too much, the SUV's in Seattle, at least, were more of a Soccer mom thing than anything else.

Also, I think generalizing "Americans" is almost as bad as generalizing "Kids".

On the Ahnold issue, that is a sign of social decay. What you have in the Govinator is a "strong man" type that you will probably see alot more of in the future.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Jubelum
Election 2004: The people have spoken. Get over it.
Will I have to put you on my "Don't show posts by this user" list, too?

[applenut]

Originally posted by Placebo
Will I have to put you on my "Don't show posts by this user" list, too?

considering you are already on so many peoples I wouldn't be surprised if he never saw that post.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by applenut
considering you are already on so many peoples I wouldn't be surprised if he never saw that post.
I was being sarcastic. :rolleyes:

[applenut]

Originally posted by Placebo
I was being sarcastic. :rolleyes:

I was being honest

[trumptman]

Originally posted by tonton
And if you and your ilk had nice little Jettas, those "soccer moms" would feel safe in their Volvo station wagons. And the world would be a better place. :)

Yeah, I looked up the tow capacity for that Volvo. It doesn't have one.

Nick

[trumptman]

Originally posted by applenut
I was being honest

Dude, applenut is so big and tough. Let's nominate him for public office!:p ;)

applenut for senate!

Nick

[bunge]

Originally posted by applenut
considering you are already on so many peoples I wouldn't be surprised if he never saw that post.

Have you finally figured out that A-Rod-Hole was out at first?

[addabox]

Originally posted by Jubelum
Strength is good.

I think the metrosexual, queer-eye, spineless thing is heading out. Most of the women I know have moved beyond the "90's guy" thing a long time ago.

It's instinct. We can try and try, but we are not programmed to gravitate toward weakness, compromise, and consensus at self-expense.

"People are beginning to see that the first requisite to success in life is to be a good animal." - Herbert Spencer

Sorry. It's the way it is. No matter how hard we try to intellectualise it.

Nice to hear from social darwinism, circa 1963.

"Weakness, compromise and consensus" aka cooperation is actually at the center of recent thought in evolutionary biology. The idea of the "individual" acting independently of every other "individual" as the engine of progress is quite dated.

Of course, your obvious homosexual panic probably makes that hard for you to discern. Keep telling yourself, "I am a strong, heterosexual man."

[dmz]

Originally posted by addabox
Keep telling yourself, "I am a strong, heterosexual man."



*sashays back into forum, one hand on waist, sporting a pronounced lisp*


oh stop it, you bitch

[pfflam]

Yes Fellowship, you are absolutely correct.

I haven't read the posts after yours yet . .

But I can tell you that most of them are probably either in agreement or are rationalizations that do not understand the insight that you recognized.

Why wouldn't they: because what you are seeing is a truth of a deeper order than someone's 'reasons' for buying a bloated SUV, or for loving Arnold, or etc . . . what you are recognizing is that our culture operates in a nearly complete state of falsity . . . there are things in the world and then there are the symbolic meanings to these things, and there is those thing's "world".


Symbolic meanings help detirmine choices like -useful pick-up truck, or gigantic pick-up truck with racing-flames but a small flat-bed . .
and even then there are deeper symbolic levels to the reasons why people make these kinds of decisions . . . reasons could range from will to have power, to masculine fear of women, to the striving of social prestige etc . . . but at a deep level they seem to boil down to one kind of fear or another

But whtever the reasons, I think that what you have touched on that is interesting is the extent to which this proclivity, this outrageous and useless urge towards 'Biggy Sized', and GIGANTISM, and muscles beyond usefulness or gracefullness is a large scale social proclivity: this is something that is widespread and cultural . . . and yet is something that we are buying into and at the same time, not completely aware of, at least not on a rational level.

In other words: we have unconscious motivations

In other words, what I like about your insight, besides it truth, is that it is working in the realms of a deeper kind of poetic truth, a symbolic level of truth.

I think that that is where the work for smarter and brighter minds is in the future: unearthing the poetic and symbolic mythologies which theaten us with their idiotic, literalistic self-excuses and reasons for absurd ways of living and choices . . . get to the heart of the matter . . . that's what we need to do.

sorry, it turned into a rant

[tonton]

Originally posted by trumptman
Yeah, I looked up the tow capacity for that Volvo. It doesn't have one.

Nick

What, to tow the speed boat you bought with your tax cut? While your "less fortunate" neighbors bought a week's supply of food with theirs?

[applenut]

Originally posted by bunge
Have you finally figured out that A-Rod-Hole was out at first?

as i said in that thread.

you need reading comprehension skills.

it's pretty funny seeing all you jackasses so bitter about this election. you all are such pathetic individuals. its no wonder Kerry lost with the support of arrogant and righteous douche bags

[addabox]

Originally posted by applenut
as i said in that thread.

you need reading comprehension skills.

it's pretty funny seeing all you jackasses so bitter about this election. you all are such pathetic individuals. its no wonder Kerry lost with the support of arrogant and righteous douche bags

Gracious in victory, as always.

[Jubelum]

Originally posted by addabox
Nice to hear from social darwinism, circa 1963.

"Weakness, compromise and consensus" aka cooperation is actually at the center of recent thought in evolutionary biology. The idea of the "individual" acting independently of every other "individual" as the engine of progress is quite dated.

Of course, your obvious homosexual panic probably makes that hard for you to discern. Keep telling yourself, "I am a strong, heterosexual man."

Wow-wee! I've lucked out. Another personal attack from addabox!
You do know your sociology, so you get some points for that... maybe 1863. You were doing so well with a thoughtful response until the end. Ya almost had me. Then you went personal and lost. So sad.

Next.... 8)

[Gon]

Really tough people are willing to stand up for what they want, whatever it calls for. They are capable of facing reality without make-believe. The only way they would pose is deliberately. They would only compromise when the environment forces them to - never in their wants, or principles. They control themselves. Fear does not control them.

That is very close to my ideal of myself.

Oh yeah, strength is good too.

[Gon]

Originally posted by addabox
Nice to hear from social darwinism, circa 1963.

"Weakness, compromise and consensus" aka cooperation is actually at the center of recent thought in evolutionary biology. The idea of the "individual" acting independently of every other "individual" as the engine of progress is quite dated.I'm not sure if you have been reading the same material that I have. Are you saying genes are not selfish, or what?

No matter what the biological explanations and models for our inclination to act in a certain way - they're just that, models. At best, they can help explain why we are likely to make certain choices. If you assume you have free will, on every single actual decision it's the individual you making that decision.

What is this "progress" you mention is not fueled by "individuals"?

Weakness is not good. If you can show weakness, that can be. Compromise is what you do when not compromising gets you a worse outcome. Consensus is what happens when individuals agree on mutually preferred course of action.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by tonton
What, to tow the speed boat you bought with your tax cut? While your "less fortunate" neighbors bought a week's supply of food with theirs?

Sure I have a boat. Circa 1976 paid in full. I also have a pick up bed trailer that I use for hauling around various materials, since I don't own a pick up.

I suppose I could sell the Jeep and the pickup bed for a nice new crewcab pickup. But the gas mileage wouldn't be any better. I'd be out about $30k dollars, and people like you would still be using class envy and attacking others as evil for owning certain vehicles they need.

Nick

[addabox]

Originally posted by trumptman
Sure I have a boat. Circa 1976 paid in full. I also have a pick up bed trailer that I use for hauling around various materials, since I don't own a pick up.

I suppose I could sell the Jeep and the pickup bed for a nice new crewcab pickup. But the gas mileage wouldn't be any better. I'd be out about $30k dollars, and people like you would still be using class envy and attacking others as evil for owning certain vehicles they need.

Nick

Because, the only possible explanation for being grossed out by the legions of soccer moms and weekend warriors sucking down gas and spewing out air pollution at levels that are wildly disproportionate to their actual transportation needs is, of course, class envy.

Also, I resent wealthy land owners who pour benzene into the ground water because I secretly wish I could do the same. When someone buys a stand of old growth redwood forest and turns it into pulp for Japan, the only plausible reason for getting upset is that I crave my own redwood forest so I can get to be the one to reduce it to a cratered moonscape. I dunno, kind of gets me hard, putting mother nature over a barrel and fucking her up the ass. Bitch!

But of course I can't admit that to myself, so I must try to ruin the fun of those who are not so encumbered, hypocrite that I am (for that matter, it's obvious to me, at least, that only people that are opposed to recreational rape are those pussies that can't get it up and hate the ones that can).

Because, at the end of the day, there is no such thing as people that think past there own immediate gratification and care about the larger world and its future. Anyone that claims to do so is a pretentious scold who should be mocked.

And in this way the world keeps getting better and better.

[addabox]

Originally posted by Gon
I'm not sure if you have been reading the same material that I have. Are you saying genes are not selfish, or what?

No matter what the biological explanations and models for our inclination to act in a certain way - they're just that, models. At best, they can help explain why we are likely to make certain choices. If you assume you have free will, on every single actual decision it's the individual you making that decision.

What is this "progress" you mention is not fueled by "individuals"?

Weakness is not good. If you can show weakness, that can be. Compromise is what you do when not compromising gets you a worse outcome. Consensus is what happens when individuals agree on mutually preferred course of action.

I guess we should start with the paucity of your language.

"Cooperation" is the word your looking for. Cooperation does not imply coercion, weakness or compromise. It involves subsuming individual goals into a larger structure that benefits all participants. It is only in the West, and fairly recently, that romantic ideas of heroic individualism would regard that model as suspect.

The paradigm shift in evolutionary biology is part of a larger trend in the sciences away from "atomism" towards various kinds of "wholism". That is, the behavior of an entire system is found to be far more complex than the sum of the behaviors of its constituents, encompassing, as it does, various feed back loops, distributed phenomena, spontaneously organizing networks, chaotic nodes, etc.

The fact is, the whole idea of atomism as it has been applied to various fields is somewhat an artifact of the tools available at the time . Analyzing systems in ways that reveal manifold emergent properties requires enormous computational power unavailable until relatively recently.

So: a given individual appears to be the proximate "cause" of innovation, but only because we lack the sophistication to read the dense web of interconnecting and mutually interpenetrating currents the confluence of which actually constitute the "node" that reads (at a corse enough resolution) as the causative moment.

This has nothing to do, by the way, with free will or predetermination. It simply speaks to the nearly limitless corpus of "conditions" that create the space where the hero manifests. And is manifested.

[tonton]

Originally posted by trumptman
Sure I have a boat. Circa 1976 paid in full. I also have a pick up bed trailer that I use for hauling around various materials, since I don't own a pick up.

I suppose I could sell the Jeep and the pickup bed for a nice new crewcab pickup. But the gas mileage wouldn't be any better. I'd be out about $30k dollars, and people like you would still be using class envy and attacking others as evil for owning certain vehicles they need.

Nick

Honestly. How often do you "haul stuff around"? Really. Couldn't you rent a U-Haul trailer when you really need it? It can hook up quite nicely to a Volvo, by the way, and although you might lose SOME acceleration power, surely it wouldn't happen all that often.

For the boat, well that's a reason to have a powerful vehicle. And I'm not saying you don't have the right to have a boat. I'd love to have one. But what percentage of male SUV and pickup owners do you think have boats, or legitimate, frequent reasons to tow anything, or to go offroad, for that matter?

When I move house I hire a moving company or rent a U-Haul. When I "haul stuff around" I put it in the trunk or the back seat.

Of course, you might be frequently hauling band equipment or something, in which case you have every right to own a trailer or a truck. But most SUV and truck owners just don't have such needs, and you know it.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by tonton
Honestly. How often do you "haul stuff around"? Really. Couldn't you rent a U-Haul trailer when you really need it? It can hook up quite nicely to a Volvo, by the way, and although you might lose SOME acceleration power, surely it wouldn't happen all that often.

For the boat, well that's a reason to have a powerful vehicle. And I'm not saying you don't have the right to have a boat. I'd love to have one. But what percentage of male SUV and pickup owners do you think have boats, or legitimate, frequent reasons to tow anything, or to go offroad, for that matter?

When I move house I hire a moving company or rent a U-Haul. When I "haul stuff around" I put it in the trunk or the back seat.

Of course, you might be frequently hauling band equipment or something, in which case you have every right to own a trailer or a truck. But most SUV and truck owners just don't have such needs, and you know it.

I do frequently haul stuff around or allow my vehicle to be used in hauling it. The tow capacity on the Cherokee isn't very high compared to even say, a half ton pickup. It is rated at 5,000 lbs. But it does hold a family of four including two car seats and tow a boat or haul that trailer.

I don't quite understand the bit with the rental of the trailer. This one is made from a full size extended pick-up bed. It has the sides built up as well. It is very well set up for what I do periodically with it. My last project was to sod in most of our yard. It took just under 500 pieces and could still use some more toward the back. I had to make three trips of about 160 pieces each. The trailer weighs 1300 lbs and formerly was from a three quarter ton pickup.(basically cut off from the cab back in about 1967) The sod, especially when wet in the morning weighs a ton per 100 pieces. I was moving 160 pieces. It would have made any minivan or front wheel drive sedan platform drop its tranny and die. As it was it had to be balanced right on the trailer or it would have lifted up the rear end of the Jeep right off the ground. (The curb weight of a Cherokee is under 3,000 lbs which makes it about as heavy as a Honda Accord)

Now I know you live in Hong Kong and perhaps it is different there. In California you basically have two sets of folks. People who live by the beach and pay a ton to live there and people who have moved inland and have a bunch of toys since they don't live at the beach. I happen to be in the latter group. Most people I know have a boat, or a couple jet skis. Lots have motorcycles or perhaps quads. (I won't buy them) We use our boat for fishing and some weekend fun. It will likely see even more use as the kids get older and the schedules get more crowded. Lots of folks park their boats at various lakes for the summer and then drive up each weekend with the family. I think people turn to the toys more because between working moms and dads, sports and activities and kids at different levels of school or perhaps on different schedules at year-round schools, it gets very hard to find two weeks to a month off to travel extensively. I get plenty of time off.

However someday my wife might go back to work. Our children will be in school, how do we insure all those schedules match up? For many it is much easier to find three or four days to go play with some of these toys.

Now I didn't mean to make this so long but lots of folks don't get multiple months off like I do. I'm trying to help you realize that people don't just drive these things to piss off folks such as yourself. They have a lot of considerations in their decision and weigh them all in the buying decision. The reality is that lots of folks need some sort of hauling and towing capacity. This requires a pick-up or SUV. The point becomes mute because the problem people have with SUV's is not that they aren't trucks, but that they are allowed to have truck gas mileage. So SUV vs. truck really doesn't matter. Most need something that can hold 4 o more people, some luggage and perhaps do some towing.

Nick

[G2G]

Cant win the peace at the end of a gun .......or try to force a country or ppl to think and live the way we do....not going to happen.

[groverat]

Has America bought into this notion of "Being big and tough"?

Yes, and welcome to the 19th century.

[applenut]

Originally posted by tonton
Honestly. How often do you "haul stuff around"? Really. Couldn't you rent a U-Haul trailer when you really need it? It can hook up quite nicely to a Volvo, by the way, and although you might lose SOME acceleration power, surely it wouldn't happen all that often.

For the boat, well that's a reason to have a powerful vehicle. And I'm not saying you don't have the right to have a boat. I'd love to have one. But what percentage of male SUV and pickup owners do you think have boats, or legitimate, frequent reasons to tow anything, or to go offroad, for that matter?

When I move house I hire a moving company or rent a U-Haul. When I "haul stuff around" I put it in the trunk or the back seat.

Of course, you might be frequently hauling band equipment or something, in which case you have every right to own a trailer or a truck. But most SUV and truck owners just don't have such needs, and you know it.

I have a Dodge Dakota quad cab. I can't see myself using anything else than a pickup truck. you generalize people too much. probably because it's really easy to do and helps to argue.

Why do I have a pick-up truck? Well, I drive it back and forth from school to NY. So I haul all my crap in it to and from in the summer. I'm also in architecture, and use it to transport material.... plywood, sheetrock, foam core, cardboard, concrete, metal, etc. I'm also on the crew team. Drive to practice, drive friends, quad cab makes this comfortable. I also have boat racks on it so that I can transport boats when needed. When I'm at home I use the bed to transport sea kayaks or bicycles.

So perhaps you are fine trying to ram that stuff into a backseat or trunk.....im pretty sure it wouldn't work....or perhaps you are fine renting a trailer or UHaul several times a month, but I'm not.

As for mileage I get about 18 to the gallon on Highways and 16.5 in the city.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by applenut
I was being honest
I doubt it

[Jubelum]

Originally posted by G2G
Cant win the peace at the end of a gun .......or try to force a country or ppl to think and live the way we do....not going to happen.

OK, then... if it is not at the end of a gun, or on the nose of a tomahawk missile, then where is it? What other language should we speak to the people that have killed thousands of innocent Americans? Where you comatose on Sept 11? The very nature of supra-national terrorism makes dealing with these groups almost impossible. Let's just play nice and hope that people that have been killing American's since 1983 (and before) will leave us alone? Yea. To stop a bully, you get a spine and break his nose. Al-Q lost bargaining legitimacy when the first plane hit the tower. Now they must die or be locked up. We tried to appease Hitler, too, while millions died. There is evil, and it must be confronted.

There's making people think like we do (we are not trying to put Al-Q to work at WalMart and worship next to GWB in church) and then there's defending ourselves against demonstrated catastrophic murderers.
Waging war against people sworn to kill American's is not war-mongering. It's called national defense.

Mao Zedong said the power came from the barrel of a gun. And that was a communist- not some "right wing fascist" like Bush. Across the spectrum, from Hitler to Mao to Stalin... politicians know two things: 1. you must position yourself at the moral apex of the fight and 2. Final victory comes through victory in warfare... only very rarely at the table ("I have secured peace in our time" - Blam!)

:smokey:

[PS5533]

Its not about being big and tough just dumb ignorant and trendy:-P

[rampancy]

Originally posted by Anna Mated
And they tell us Evolution is the cause of this mindset.

:lol:

Hypocrisy, thy name is Creationism.

[bunge]

Originally posted by applenut
as i said in that thread.

you need reading comprehension skills.

it's pretty funny seeing all you jackasses so bitter about this election. you all are such pathetic individuals. its no wonder Kerry lost with the support of arrogant and righteous douche bags

That's some fairly lame denial.

[IonYz]

Originally posted by tonton
Of course, you might be frequently hauling band equipment or something, in which case you have every right to own a trailer or a truck. But most SUV and truck owners just don't have such needs, and you know it.

This argument can be compared with Power Mac versus AIO right? You buy the Power Mac because it has PCI slots, you have the possibility to expand and you tell yourself you will. Many don't but nonetheless its their Power Mac and they love it. Their huge, 600W PSU, expandable (God forbid) Power Mac.

I also don't understand how _ALL_ these people purchasing SUVs are off-roading (around here? off-roading is riding the curb) or hauling. Its more the possibility that, if the event arises they can. "Future Proof". There is a thread in and of itself.

At the office a coworker is in the market for a new vehicle. What do they want? Something that can move a good amount of people, but they scoff at SUVs. Too big, too expensive. Their current vehicle is an older model station wagon. You know the kind, with seats in the bed and all? The market doesn't cater to these people. Its SUV or nothing.

Selfishness has nothing to do with it, I bought a new car (http://ionyz.net/sharing/boxy/) when I could have just continued using my 15 year old Volvo. But vehicles like the H2 harm others (http://www.greenercars.com/12mean.html). I agree there is nothing we can do about forcing the market where it doesn't want to go. But regulations should be stricter (especially for vehicles like the H2) to reduce pollution.

[applenut]

Originally posted by bunge
That's some fairly lame denial.

keep crying. you're only impressing yourself:lol:

[FormerLurker]

So we've established that Trumpt and AppleNut are not soccer moms. That doesn't meant that there aren't soccer moms out there that would have safer, more economical, and more environmental transportation with a Volvo station wagon, or even a Chrysler minivan.

[addabox]

Originally posted by applenut
keep crying. you're only impressing yourself:lol:

Yankees suck.

[Outsider]

Originally posted by addabox
Yankees suck. You mean the team and not the people riiiiiight? :p

[Boost_g5]

FELLOWSHIP,
EVERY THREAD YOU CREATE IS LEFT WING, POLITICAL CRAP. KNOCK IT OFF! THIS IS AN APPLE ENTHUSIAST FORUM, NOT A POLITICAL OPINION FORUM!

NOBODY CARES ABOUT WHAT YOUR POLITICAL OPINIONS ARE, SO PLEASE TAKE IT ELSEWHERE.

[Jubelum]

Originally posted by Boost_g5
FELLOWSHIP,
EVERY THREAD YOU CREATE IS LEFT WING, POLITICAL CRAP. KNOCK IT OFF! THIS IS AN APPLE ENTHUSIAST FORUM, NOT A POLITICAL OPINION FORUM!

NOBODY CARES ABOUT WHAT YOUR POLITICAL OPINIONS ARE, SO PLEASE TAKE IT ELSEWHERE.


"I'll get the tar"

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by Boost_g5
FELLOWSHIP,
EVERY THREAD YOU CREATE IS LEFT WING, POLITICAL CRAP. KNOCK IT OFF! THIS IS AN APPLE ENTHUSIAST FORUM, NOT A POLITICAL OPINION FORUM!

NOBODY CARES ABOUT WHAT YOUR POLITICAL OPINIONS ARE, SO PLEASE TAKE IT ELSEWHERE.

Why do I get the feeling you are someone else hiding under a new screen name?

For the record I posted in a political forum here within AI in case you did not notice.

2nd I will never be silenced by youself.

Fellowship

[applenut]

Originally posted by Fellowship
Why do I get the feeling you are someone else hiding under a new screen name?

For the record I posted in a political forum here within AI in case you did not notice.

2nd I will never be silenced by youself.

Fellowship

wow bravo. way to go!


the jackass is right. you've turned into a left wing bitter nutjob. it's kind of sad.

[Jubelum]

re: boost...

I love this thread... funniest damn thread ever. A true classic.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37355

Which was, BTW, locked by Fellowship before I died of visceral, painful laughter.

[Boost_g5]

Fellowship of the left wing,

This evening I did a search for laser printer reviews and one of your political threads was in the search results. Your liberal ramblings are inescapable! I understand that you posted this thread in a 'political outsider' thread, but left wing politics is ALL YOU POST ABOUT!

It gets extremely old when no matter what the forum user is searching for, your anti-bush opinions end up in the search results.

I'm not asking for you to be 'silenced', I am asking you to treat your addiction to daily left wing thread creation.


- Boost_G5

[Gene Clean]

- Boost_G5
Registered Democrat

:lol:

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by Boost_g5
Fellowship of the left wing,

This evening I did a search for laser printer reviews and one of your political threads was in the search results. Your liberal ramblings are inescapable! I understand that you posted this thread in a 'political outsider' thread, but left wing politics is ALL YOU POST ABOUT!

It gets extremely old when no matter what the forum user is searching for, your anti-bush opinions end up in the search results.

I'm not asking for you to be 'silenced', I am asking you to treat your addiction to daily left wing thread creation.


- Boost_G5
Registered Democrat

My liberal ramblings? I understand you claim to be new here and who knows you just might actually be.

Just to let you know about myself not as if I need to explain,, I am a moderate who was previously a republican who voted republican in every election since voting age minus this last election.

It is none of your business really but I would suggest to you if politics gets under your skin pay careful attention to the "Forum" you venture into when doing searches.

You are correct that this is Appleinsider and it is about all things Apple.

What you need to also know is that Political Outsider is a sub-forum where people talk politics.

If you do not like this forum I expect not to see you here within political outsider from this moment onward.

Pretty simple really ;)

Fellowship

[Boost_g5]

We shall let the people decide.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47888

[FormerLurker]

The insects (or rats, or whatever you wanna call creatures that scurry away at the first sign of light) that have been in hiding till yesterday are coming out of the woodwork.

Sure, it's funny for now, but won't it get old in a few weeks?

[FormerLurker]

- Boost_G5
Registered Demagogue Correcting the typo.
Fanning the flames.
Trolling the trolls.
[oops, did I say that out loud?]

[bunge]

Originally posted by applenut
keep crying. you're only impressing yourself:lol:

Crying? I just think it's funny that you can't admit to being wrong about something as stupid as baseball. It makes your opinions in a political forum even less valid than I thought.

[FormerLurker]

Three baseball fans were on their way from a game when they noticed a foot sticking out of the bushes by the side of the road. They looked and discovered a nude woman, drunk and passed out.

Out of respect for the lady, the Cubs fan took off his cap and placed it over her right breast. The Red Sox fan took off his cap and placed it over her left breast. Following their lead, the Yankee fan took off his cap and placed it over her crotch.

The police were called and when the officer arrived, he conducted his inspection. First, he lifted up the Cubs cap, replaced it, and wrote down some notes. Next, he lifted the Sox cap, replaced it, and wrote down some more notes. The officer then lifted the Yankees cap, replaced it, then lifted it again, replaced it, lifted it a third time, and replaced it one last time.

The Yankee fan was getting upset and finally asked, "What are you, a pervert or something? Why do you keep lifting and looking, lifting and looking?" Well," said the officer, "I am simply surprised. Normally when I look under a Yankees hat, I find an asshole."

[applenut]

Originally posted by bunge
Crying? I just think it's funny that you can't admit to being wrong about something as stupid as baseball. It makes your opinions in a political forum even less valid than I thought.

wah....keep crying.

please dear, inform me of what i was wrong about?

and keep wasting your time, it's amusing. you are so easy its pathetic. for someone who dishes out insults left and right you insult yourself with ease.

[bunge]

Originally posted by applenut
please dear, inform me of what i was wrong about?

Just the rules of the game, that's all. At least, that's all in the other thread.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by FormerLurker
So we've established that Trumpt and AppleNut are not soccer moms. That doesn't meant that there aren't soccer moms out there that would have safer, more economical, and more environmental transportation with a Volvo station wagon, or even a Chrysler minivan.

Former, you're right that these soccer mom's could get by in something else. A lot of them do get by in minivans. However minivans don't get much better gas mileage than a smaller SUV. The argument about what vehicle you own is that all these folks won't buy a sedan that gets 30+ mpg.

The second thing is this, that many families also have a limited number of vehicle choices they have to make that suit all the family needs. Most families that own an SUV also own a sedan. From what I have seen most families put the harder burdens upon the guy when it comes to either commuting or earning more. So they often own an SUV and a sedan. The SUV stays with the wife during the week in her job which is closer to home and either full or part time. This allows her to be closer to the kids for all the activities she chooses to drag them to, if they are ill, etc. Dad often commutes farther and takes the family sedan which usually does get better gas mileage. Mom or dad could switch their work/car roles and all it would change is what car they drive during the week.

On the weekends, dad or mom drives the SUV and they haul the toys, etc.

Sure this is a generalization and there are people that aren't even close to that criteria. However we are looking at what people own a certain type of vehicle. My wife and I looked at a lot of minivans not too long ago. They were all built on front wheel drive sedan platforms and would not tow more than 3500 lbs. We did find some rear wheel drive ones like the Chevy Astro, but the gas mileage again, is no better than an SUV. If the family purchases a minivan and sedan, there is no option of towing anything period.

Nick

[BuonRotto]

Originally posted by Boost_g5
I'm not asking for you to be 'silenced', I am asking you to treat your addiction to daily left wing thread creation.


- Boost_G5

So long as Trumptman, Scott and Common Man also agree to not create so many right wing threads. That fair?

Door swings both ways. We have our left wing nut jobs on one side, and out right wing nut jobs on the other. They apparently like to preach, be self-righteous, flame, taunt, argue and fight in front of others of similar and opposing viewpoints.

Look, it's an idiotic forum, get over it. Don't visit it. Either join in the lunacy or don't. I'm not asking you to be silenced. I'm asking that you treat your addiction to PO. ;) :p

applenut: I'm made out of rubber, you're made out of glue.... nyah, nyah! :D

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by IonYz
Selfishness has nothing to do with it, I bought a new car (http://ionyz.net/sharing/boxy/) when I could have just continued using my 15 year old Volvo. But vehicles like the H2 harm others (http://www.greenercars.com/12mean.html).

Isn't Volvo selling wagons in the USA? Or are they priced there beyond most people's means?
Surely an expensive paramilitary mammoth such as the H2 is not the only alternative to a federalised Toyota bB in lieu of an old Volvo.

You might have appreciated a Peugeot 307 SW, if it were imported and propelrly serviced in North America.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by Boost_g5
Fellowship of the left wing,

This evening I did a search for laser printer reviews and one of your political threads was in the search results. Your liberal ramblings are inescapable! I understand that you posted this thread in a 'political outsider' thread, but left wing politics is ALL YOU POST ABOUT!

It gets extremely old when no matter what the forum user is searching for, your anti-bush opinions end up in the search results.

I'm not asking for you to be 'silenced', I am asking you to treat your addiction to daily left wing thread creation.

Firstly, there's nothing wrong with being 'left wing'. The 'left wing' isn't the enemy. You live in a democracy and you you NEED dissent.

Secondly, this is a political forum and he can start any thread he damn well pleases.

Thirdly, Fellowship isn't left wing. He thinks for himself and sometimes he gets things wrong (in my warped opinion) but your country would be far richer and braver if it listened to people like him.

Fourthly, who are you really? Four posts and you presume to know the guy? If it's über liberals you want you'd take aim at Giant and Shawn, or me. It's kinda telling you don't.

[Outsider]

Originally posted by FormerLurker
The insects (or rats, or whatever you wanna call creatures that scurry away at the first sign of light) that have been in hiding till yesterday are coming out of the woodwork.

Sure, it's funny for now, but won't it get old in a few weeks? Don't worry. In a few months they' have a gun in hand somewhere in the middle east.

[IonYz]

I think you misunderstand my post (or I yours).

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Isn't Volvo selling wagons in the USA? Or are they priced there beyond most people's means?

Volvo automobiles in the States are luxury cars. Their wagons base at $25K and my budget was below $20K.

Surely an expensive paramilitary mammoth such as the H2 is not the only alternative to a federalised Toyota bB in lieu of an old Volvo.

Yes, but I didn't like my Volvo ;) Heck it isn't even mine. It was my first car. Parents bought it for me. I had no real choice in the matter. Although it has regular mechanical problems (what happen to being reliable cars?) costing us about $700 every six months it is still running.

Nor was I looking at a Hummer, or any other wagon really. Funny though the Scion xB (Toyota bB in Japan) is classified as a wagon albeit a very short one (6" shorter then a VW Beetle).

I brought up the Hummer because I see too many. They are one of the worst polluting vehicles on the road. I'm selfish because I splurged on a new car but its not hurting others (to the extent that the emissions and fuel consumption of a Hummer does). Besides I don't like large vehicles. "Boxy" is 2450 lb. (1110 kg.), very short and low to the ground. He also has a 110HP (1500cc) engine. While the displacement is low the power-to-weight isn't really that bad. Plus 30mpg and over is common.

You might have appreciated a Peugeot 307 SW, if it were imported and propelrly serviced in North America.

Maybe. I'd like to see more european cars stateside. Both Asian and European car design is so different then ours because they need to maximize internal space while minimizing outward size. "Boxy" is proof enough, with head and legroom rivaling the majority of SUVs on the market.

[Gon]

I don't see why so many people would be concerned about towing and massive cargo capacity. Sure there is the occasional person who regularly needs to transport lots of goods, and they need a correspondingly big car for that task. Now, I know exactly one person who has a SUV; he recently sold his food store, and he needed that cargo capacity both for the business and for towing his boat. I only know one person who has a van; he has two kids, a dog, and is into scouting. I don't know anyone who has a truck.

If the hauling or towing is professional, the car will rarely be privately owned, rather the company's. I have lots of friends doing such work but they either have no car of their own, or have a small five-seater.

For infrequent hauling like moving, around here people either buy professional services (if you do the math, it's usually cheaper than doing it by yourself) or they dig up a van (either through friends or rental) and do the work themselves.

Even families big enough to absolutely need a big vehicle are not that common. A normal small hatchback carries five for some distance when necessary. Usually the whole family is *not* in the car at the same time. And if you have a small hatch and a mid size sedan, that's comfortable transport for eight.

I know a couple who spend a big part of their available time in serious construction work on the husband's old home. They get by with a light four-wheel trailer (legal maximum weight 750kg) that they tow with an old and *weak* sedan. My driver's education teacher transported his track bike to the track, and the driver's ed bike to classes, in a similar trailer behind his sedan.