Top of the line Powerbook falls short...

[hardhead]

After much deliberation over the course of many months, I'm going to take the leap into non-desktop computer-hood.

I just sold my Arstechnica "god box" clone (+23" CG) at a profit! I gave my hot-rodded Pismo (OS 9 only) to my mid-seventies-old next door neighbors. They've never owned a computer but I now have them comfortable surfing, attaching, sending and reading emails and doing very basic word processing and image manipulation. They were both good open minded students!

I'm not in the graphic arts, nor science and technology (sort of...) fields. A little Photoshop and Office to take care of my business dealings are important to me.

As far as these needs go, Mac OS X makes XP look rough. XP also requires vigilance from the hackers and multitude of virii out there. You just have to stay on top of the updates. Here again, Mac OS has it all over XP. Of course, if the Mac OS X user base could increase by 10% (or whatever...) we would start to see an increase in hack and virus problems for the Mac. Maybe. Arguably, OS X is the sweetist looking "ready made" GUI on the planet! I think so anyway.

The one big however: I do love FPS gaming. SP and MP. I blame my son and daughter for this "sickness". Because of the powerful desktop I've been living with, I've grown use to state of the art game graphics. I'll tell you guys, I do get a kick everytime I fire up Doom 3, SoF 2, UTk4 and even HaloCE at how sweet they look and play. Umm, played...

Anyway, I have no allegiance to either Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. Neither one has ever invited me over for dinner. If I were twenty years younger, I would throw myself headfirst into one of the Linux varieties. Now that I'm in my fifties, I no longer have the patience for that sort of "geek" pursuit. I want a system that just "works". I want a laptop that "approaches" a high end desktop. I need to make my move now.

Apple's top of the line Powerbook just does not cut the mustard. Especially at it's price. I'm not kidding you people when I state that I really went round and round in my head over this. My lady accused me of going nuts. She may have been a little right.

I'm going with the Overam 8700. It is a sweet piece of technology. The only drawback, it doesn't run OS X. Oh well. A year or two from now, if Apple can produce a comparably spec'ed Powerbook, I might consider going back to Apple. This is not a rant against Apple, I'm just sharing with you guys. The Overam runs XP at almost "instantaneous" speeds. The Powerbook runs OS X with, to me, a percetible "lag". It's still fast. Very fast. I'm sure Tiger will offer a slight speed boost also. Compared to the Overam w/XP, there's somethng sluggish about the Powerbook/X combo. I know, I'm nitpicking in the extreme. These are, afterall, extreme machines.

Overam Mirage 8700 $2,000.00
http://www.overam.com/custom-laptops.htm#mirage-4700-custom-laptop
weight 8.6 lbs.
17" 1440x900 XGA (NO DEAD PIXELS!)
ATI-Radeon 9700Pro Mobility 256MB
8x AGP
Integrated high-res (300,000 pixels) digital video-camera (CMOS)
Pentium 4 3.07GHz w/Hyper Threading
800MHz FSB
60Gig 7200RPM HDD
1Gig PC3200 DDR400 RAM
Microsoft XP-Pro

Apple Powerbook $3,249.00
weight 6.9 lbs.
17" 1400x900 XGA (5 dead pixels?)
ATI-Radeon 9700Pro Mobility 128MB
4x AGP
G4 1.5GHz
167MHz(?) FSB
80Gig 5400RPM HDD
1Gig PC2700 DDR333 RAM
OS X.3

[tonton]

That looks like a good setup for a DTR laptop (desktop replacement). I'm sure you'll love it.

Fortunately, I'm not a FPS fan, so I get to enjoy the beauty and simplicity of OS X. But obviously that comes at a premium.

Good luck!

[Dave K.]

You need to check your numbers again. There is no way that laptop deal is better than Apple's.

[Placebo]

Other than the weight, that's a nice laptop.

[tonton]

Of course, while as he's a gamer I don't think he's dumb for looking at Windows machines, I think he is EXTREMELY dumb for pricing the PowerBook with Apple RAM. NEVER BUY APPLE RAM.

Unfortunately, every PC head who does a price comparison decks out the Mac with Apple RAM while they deck out the PC with third-party RAM. Of course the Mac will look more expensive.

Now here's the price of that configuration PowerBook, only with 1.5 Gig RAM instead of 1.0G:

Stock Configuration 17" PowerBook G4: $2799
Upgrade Video to 128MB: $100
Upgrade Hard Drive to 5400 RPM: $50
Add 1GB PC2700 DDR 333 (certified Samsung RAM from Data Memory Systems): $310

$3259

How much would the PC cost with 1.5 GB of RAM?

[MCQ]

Originally posted by tonton


How much would the PC cost with 1.5 GB of RAM?

Well, I can't figure out how he got $2000, I got $2492 for the quoted spec (I'm assuming he got the 4x DVD-RW for parity with the PB).

In any case, with 2 GB configured, it's $2962, still under the PB price.

[hardhead]

tonton, if I have Overam load the laptop with 2Gigs of RAM, that adds $590 for a grand total of $2,590.00 Still beats the Mac by a good amount of dough.

Your right, I priced both machines to be delivered to my door READY to rumble. I'm aware that especially in the case of the Powerbook, most folks are gonna shop for their own RAM to bring prices down. I could do the same for the Overam to drop price a bit.

Dave K., how are the numbers wrong? I'm all ears (eyes)...

Like I stated before guys, I think OS X is superior to XP in many regards. It's their laptop hardware I find lacking, especially for the money.

If the Powerbook spec'ed out like the Overam, I would buy a Powerbook. Even at Apple's premium price.

[hardhead]

Ooops...:embarrass :embarrass :embarrass

Dave k., nevermind...:lol: Mea culpa.

So price-wise the two machines are closer. That's good. The performance difference for gaming (especially) still remains.

[shabbasuraj]

8.6 lbs:lol:

[slughead]

open-minded x86 users: Laptops are expensive as hell, and you get screwed on every additional feature

it's OK to concede that the PB is the best for the money, that's what I tell my clients and after shopping around they agree.


I just wish Apple would make a $700 laptop because that seems to be where my first-time computer users are looking, and they find it in Dell and Compaq.

[hardhead]

shabbasuraj, does 8.6 lbs seem too heavy to you? It's a bit heavier than the Powerbook at 6.9 lbs. That's not really much difference.

slughead, yup, laptops are always going to be more expensive for a given price to performance ratio no matter the brand.

[MCQ]

Originally posted by hardhead
shabbasuraj, does 8.6 lbs seem too heavy to you? It's a bit heavier than the Powerbook at 6.9 lbs. That's not really much difference.

slughead, yup, laptops are always going to be more expensive for a given price to performance ratio no matter the brand.

I just noticed that the 8.6 lbs is without battery. W/battery, I'd guess it's easily 9 lbs.

http://www.overam.com/pages/en/8700/8700.htm

[shabbasuraj]

Originally posted by MCQ
I just noticed that the 8.6 lbs is without battery. W/battery, I'd guess it's easily 9 lbs.

http://www.overam.com/pages/en/8700/8700.htm

classic.

don't you love disclosure of specifications.

[hardhead]

Whu'chu mean by "classic" Willis?

Like I said before, I'm not slamming Powerbooks. They are beautiful machines.

As I stated in original post, I'm replacing "desktop" towers. So it's not going to get carried around very often. Well, the ocasional LAN party.

[Res]

Nine pounds? O My Gawd!!! A whole 2.1 pounds heavier then Apple's? How will my back support the extra weight! :rolleyes:

An extra 2 pounds for over twice the performance? Sounds good to me.

Apple used to have desktop replacement notebooks: The G3 towers were not much faster then the G3 series powerbooks. Then they decided to go for slim form notebooks and we've been power starved ever since.

Sometimes I think that Apple is intentionally trying to avoid the desktop replacement category to try and force people to buy both a portable, and a tower...

[Placebo]

Yeah, the whole 'thin' obsession is pretty stupid.

[MCQ]

Originally posted by hardhead
Whu'chu mean by "classic" Willis?

Like I said before, I'm not slamming Powerbooks. They are beautiful machines.

As I stated in original post, I'm replacing "desktop" towers. So it's not going to get carried around very often. Well, the ocasional LAN party.

True... if you're replacing an Ars god box with the laptop, then the Overam is definitely the way to go to get comparable power.

[kiwi-in-dc]

Originally posted by MCQ
True... if you're replacing an Ars god box with the laptop, then the Overam is definitely the way to go to get comparable power.

But if you're not, then the PBG4 is still a very nice machine. My 17" PBG4 1.33GHz is still the envy of my collegues who all have 17" 3.2GHz PC laptops. For 90% of what we do (software architecture consulting), the PB is as good as if not better than the PC.

The big thing for me (and the collegues who have also made the switch) is Mac OS X. It makes an excellent Java development environment. is extremely stable and compares very well with the PCs for performance - except when it comes to games and other 3D stuff.

Then again, if I wanted a machine where the driving factor was gaming, then why would I want a laptop anyway?

[applenut]

Originally posted by Placebo
Yeah, the whole 'thin' obsession is pretty stupid.

you're pretty stupid.

as well as the other people in this thread saying this massive piece of shit is a superior product to the Powerbook.

The Powerbook has so many more uses for its price than that hunk of shit that it more than pays for itself.

Performance
Ok, give the hunk of shit the edge. But by how much. And how exactly do you measure performance on a laptop? Is it strict benchmarks? Is it performance/battery life percentage? Performance/portablitity? You want to play FPS. Well, in that case even a desktop replacement laptop is a dumbass choice to make. You can't upgrade it, it's already slow, and making it suitable for that use makes it unsuitable as a laptop. The performance is going to be good at best. Not great, not outstanding....gor games at least. The Powerbook will get buy....however, you'll have the added benefit of actually having a portable

Weight
2 pounds is not much more....riiiight. this is spoken like a true person who has never had a 7 pounds laptop and a 9 pound laptop in their posession to compare. two pounds is a significant additon. very noticeable and much heavier. especially once you add accessories and everything else in. every pound counts. i will make a bet, and im 99percent sure of it, that the PC's power adapter is significantly larger and heavier as well. The thing is also over twice as thick. It doesn't look nearly as well built, the ports have no thought to their placement, and its made of cheap material.

Overall value
Apple knows how to make laptops. They know how to make a machine painlessly portable. OS X is a dream to use on the road. with automatic syncing and recognition of networks and sleep and the interface in itself. OS X is superior and arguably more productive and has a better workflow. The machine is comparable in performance and the design is much superior, It's significantly lighter, thinner, and smaller overall. I really don't see how this is much of a comparison. Seems pretty one sided to me.

[Stoo]

i will make a bet, and im 99percent sure of it, that the PC's power adapter is significantly larger and heavier as well.

There aren't [m]any laptop power supplies smaller than Apple's current one.

[murbot]

Hmm. I was going to post here, then I saw applenut's post, and realized I didn't have to.

[hardhead]

applenut, that is quite an ignorant post. Do you feel better now? Do some physical work outs once in awhile. Sounds like you're a little out of shape son. :lol:

murbot, if you agreed with applenut's post, well... :D

Once again I'll state for the record, I think Powerbooks are beautiful machines. I think OS X is sweet.

Two important points made me choose the Overam over the Powerbook.

1- Most of my corporate clients are on Windoze.

2- I love gaming.

As far as the Overam being a "hunk of shit", you obviously have never seen one in the "flesh". Hence, you are speaking out of your ass. Upon close inspection, it is more solidy built than the Powerbook and to tighter tolerances. For example, the way the screen lid fits to the base, there's no "give" on the Overam. On most Powerbooks that I have examined, that lid "give" can be fairly pronounced. No big deal really. However, you don't know what you are talking about applenut.

[applenut]

1- Most of my corporate clients are on Windoze.


you're point. please share how it would not integrate and what incompatibilities you would have. this is usually the excuse people come up with who have no excuse

2- I love gaming.

see above for why you're a tool

As far as the Overam being a "hunk of shit", you obviously have never seen one in the "flesh". Hence, you are speaking out of your ass. Upon close inspection, it is more solidy built than the Powerbook and to tighter tolerances. For example, the way the screen lid fits to the base, there's no "give" on the Overam. On most Powerbooks that I have examined, that lid "give" can be fairly pronounced. No big deal really. However, you don't know what you are talking about applenut.

things that have no give break when they fall. things that have no give snap.

i claim I don't know what I'm talking about yet the only two arguments you come up with after being torn a new asshole are it isn't compatible and the screen has no give....o...and my physique.

weak.

[tonton]

Applenut, I agree with you 100% on the "corporate client" thing :rolleyes: but I honestly think that if he's an FPS fan the PC is better for him.

Where'd he talk about your physique? Oh you mean anal verbage ability? Or maybe the phrase "Upon close inspection, it is more solidy built than applenut and to tighter tolerances"? :lol:

[Flounder]

If you don't think carrying around two extra pounds won't be extremely noticeable, you're nuts.

[Gavriel]

Do your balls and ears a favor, mate. Get a Powerbook!

[dfiler]

Whew, Applenut, that was waaay over the top. This guy put forth a very good discussion of currently available laptops, listing which criteria were important to him. He doesn't deserve to be called 'stupid'. *deep breath* :)

Hardhead, I share most of your sentiments regarding the tradeoffs. OS X is why I am on the Mac platform, yet I do get envious of less expensive hardware on the PC side.

I can't offer a recommendation, since I understand exactly why you went around in circles on this decision forever.

The PC definately has the powerbook beat on price, UI responsiveness, and gaming. Yet the powerbook offers many advantages as well. The powerbook's form is significantly better, being of higher quality, size, and weight (once battery is figured in). The powerbook probably has better battery life when under heavy load. Can anyone offer stats on this?

But finaly, for people looking for something that 'just works', the landscape has changed recently. Adware and spyware are now so prevailent that windows becomes a chore to maintain. Within the last year or two things have really gotten out of hand. Most users now need to constantly battle maliciously installed software.

Ok... I take it all back... and recommend the powerbook. OS 10.4 should do amazing things for UI responsiveness. Can you live without the gaming?

[hardhead]

applenut, back up and take it easy. Let me first say that I publicly apologize to you for the "speaking out of your ass" comment. That was uncalled for on my part. OK? I was not attacking your physique. I meant that as a light hearted jab at'cha...

I started the thread to share my conclusions with all of you. I always expect mature and intelligent conversation here at AI. I know things can get a bit heated sometimes in the course of discussion. I'm guilty of this.

As a long time Mac and Windows user, I never got into the "us or them" mentality.

Just to reiterate a few points:
I realize that working in a corporate environment no longer requires "Windows only". The thing is, all of my newer software is Windows XP native, namely the two biggies; Photoshop CS and Office 2003.

All of my Mac software is OS 9 native. I know, I can run it in "Classic". C'mon... So the switch would also entail replacing my software. A considerable cost and nothing to sneeze at.

A fair performance benchmark between the two platforms appears to be somewhat tricky. Many more of you know the technical intricacies of this problem better than I. So I'll break it down in my non-tech way. Win XP Pro on the Overam responds "RIGHT NOW". Mac OS X on the Powerbook feels "fairly fast". I know that's an exceedingly simple description. I don't know how else to describe the GUI response for each platform.

Gaming. Particularly online multiplayer. Yes I love it. I admit it. If that makes me a "tool", so be it. Counterstrike is my current favorite. It's awesome. I can more than hold my own against the youngsters. I'm VERY lucky that my lady love also enjoys online gaming.

Graphics. No contest here. 256MB +DX 9 +8x AGP lay the SMACK on 128MB +OpenGL +4x AGP. That's just the reality of the situation.

My main goal was to RID MYSELF of the "tower" factor. The laptop will regularly get moved from the den to the patio under the trees (um yeah...)where I just ran an outside cable line. Once in a while to LAN parties. Hence, the weight will be a non-factor. Yes, it's a big guy. It's a powerful machine.


I had been living with a very powerful PC for the past seven months. You get kinda spoiled with the performance. Compared to this beast the Overam is a big compromise. I can live with that. The Powerbook at first felt positively underpowered. Laptops, no matter the platform, are going to continue to lag behind desktop performance for a few more years to come.

As I stated before, I'll come back to the Mac if Apple release the kind of laptop that I want.

[hardhead]

dfiler, the crap that can affect your Windowed machine are never ending it seems. You just try to stay on top of it. I tell friends and clients. Immediately load Spyware and Adware on your PC and use them at least once a week. They work.

How about your Steelers!? Oh, theres another thread for that.:)

[dfiler]

Originally posted by hardhead
dfiler, the crap that can affect your Windowed machine are never ending it seems. You just try to stay on top of it. I tell friends and clients. Immediately load Spyware and Adware on your PC and use them at least once a week. They work.

How about your Steelers!? Oh, theres another thread for that.:) Heheh, tell me about it. My job is mostly coding and maintainance of database software. However, as of late, spyware and such has been consuming much of our time.

We run F-Prot and AdAware on most machines.

This morning, our FedEx machine froze up completely with spyware. Fortunately, I stole the administrative password from our local rep the last time he came in to rid it of malware. Otherwise, we would have had to ship all orders by UPS until a rep could come out and remedy the situation. The machine will only boot straight into the FedEx shipping software. FedEx is also adiment about maintaining their own machines.

Also, AdAware did in one of the computers in our human resources department this week. This computer happens to be the one running ADP, the program responsible for getting our payroll checks printed and mailed to hourly employees. Apparently, AdAware in not compatible with ADP. Fortunately, one of the other IT gimps stayed late to reinstall everything.

Ahhh... job security. ;)

[hardhead]

dfiler, I'm glad you replied right away. You're describing a situation I just witnessed at a client's office. I'm pointing him at your response! Over and out. :D

[9secondko]

Originally posted by tonton
Applenut, I agree with you 100% on the "corporate client" thing :rolleyes: but I honestly think that if he's an FPS fan the PC is better for him.

Where'd he talk about your physique? Oh you mean anal verbage ability? Or maybe the phrase "Upon close inspection, it is more solidy built than applenut and to tighter tolerances"? :lol:

Tonton...

This is not the same guy who posts on boxing boards is it?

[Aquatic]

Yes I agree the "thin" thing is dumb. They should come out with a G5 PowerBook that is a desktop replacement (but keep developing the current lines until the G5 can be in a thin case, and then at that point I guess a G6 PowerBook or something in the thick model) Most of the laptops our campus computer store sells are over two inches thick and probably over 7 pounds. They never leave the students' dorm desks. They have 16" or bigger screens. But this is definitely a niche, and a growing one: the Desktop Replacement. Hell I might get one, or an iMac... I don't move my PowerBook as much as I used to.

[PB]

hardhead, if you are so serious about gaming, there is no much to think about. A Windows based laptop is the obvious way to go. From game availability to gaming hardware. You know already, but just to point it out, look what (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2268&p=1) nVidia offers today and ATI wil offer in two weeks for PC laptops. But when for the Powerbooks, especially if there is one more G4 iteration?

[applenut]

Originally posted by hardhead
applenut,......

that was a much more reasonable and understandable explanation for the decision than your initial posts.

Although I still don't understand the desire to purchase a laptop for gaming purposes. The graphics will be underpowered by today's standards, are not upgradable and the native resolution of the displays are usually too high to actually play the games at so you must switch to a fuzzy lower resolution. and because you chose this behemoth of a laptop, in 8 months when games come out that exceed your hardware you are left with a 9 pound unportable portable where as with something that was actually portable it would still fullfill a purpose.