Dean: Democrats cannot give up

[Existence]

A wonderfully inspirational column by Howard Dean:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/features/2004/11/08/democrats_cannot_give_up.php

I agree with him completely.

[trick fall]

After reading that he has my vote to head the DNC.

[tonton]

I too agree with him on every level, especially fiscal responsibility, and this:

"The President successfully turned a discussion about moral values into a discussion about gay marriage and abortion. I think moral values are also about how you treat poor people, how you treat those who are different, how you respect the opinion of others, and what you leave to your children. On those moral values, I think the Republicans lose. We need to talk about these values too."

[Aries 1B]

Originally posted by tonton
I too agree with him on every level, especially fiscal responsibility, and this:

"The President successfully turned a discussion about moral values into a discussion about gay marriage and abortion. I think moral values are also about how you treat poor people, how you treat those who are different, how you respect the opinion of others, and what you leave to your children. On those moral values, I think the Republicans lose. We need to talk about these values too."

Please, please, please install Howard Dean as DNC Chair.

Thank You.

Aries 1B

[applenut]

Originally posted by Existence
A wonderfully inspirational column by Howard Dean:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/features/2004/11/08/democrats_cannot_give_up.php

I agree with him completely.

well stated but still kind of empty.

Would have been interesting if he had gotten the nod. But based on this outcome and his extreme differences to Bush I think he would have done a lot worse. Although, he would have definitely gone on the offensive more so than Kerry

[Scott]

WTF was Dean going to say? "Democrats should give up!"?

Anyway he says almost nothing.

[trick fall]

Scott, I actually think he says quite a lot. I particularly liked this section,

"The President successfully turned a discussion about moral values into a discussion about gay marriage and abortion. I think moral values are also about how you treat poor people, how you treat those who are different, how you respect the opinion of others, and what you leave to your children. On those moral values, I think the Republicans lose. We need to talk about these values too."

And this too,

"Having said all this, the Democratic Party needs an overhaul. We will never win by trying to be "Republican-lite".

Its time for the Democratic Party to start defining itself and stop worrying about how the right is going to define it. Its also time to shine a bright light on the fundamentalist freaks that run the Republican Party.

[dmz]

Dean will crater the Democratic party he is given his way.

[Ra]

Originally posted by dmz
Dean will crater the Democratic party he is given his way. Care to explain?

[dmz]

Originally posted by Ra
Care to explain?


I think his early lead -- pre-scream -- baited the party much further left than would have been expedient.

[Anders]

The only thing that can save anything is election reform that breaks the two party system and lead a piece of the republican (not the party) democracy model into the electoral process. Anything else (including party internal makeup) is nothing but a distraction from what is really needed to ensure the future of US democracy.

[Scott]

If Kerry had won would you want to end the two party system?

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by Scott
If Kerry had won would you want to end the two party system?
Congratulations on winning the election. Fantastic. Well done. Great. Superb work. Good goin'. Thumbs up. A pat on the back. Onward and upward. Jubilations. Break out the bunting.

[Anders]

Originally posted by Scott
If Kerry had won would you want to end the two party system?

Yes.

Read my post back when we discussed Nader. I said back then that I would find it worth the risk to vote for him, even if it meant Bush would win. Not because of his ideas (although I tend to agree more with those than those of the two big parties) but because your political system will stay in bad shape as long as you have the current system.

This election had a negative result. Not as much because Bush won again. But because the two parties (mostly the democrats) succeded in convincing the voters to believe that the world and the choice is binary.

[Common Man]

Make Dean your leader and you will be done .

[jimmac]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Congratulations on winning the election. Fantastic. Well done. Great. Superb work. Good goin'. Thumbs up. A pat on the back. Onward and upward. Jubilations. Break out the bunting.


:lol:

[Hassan i Sabbah]

No, really. Well done! An auspicious day. Fabulous. Splendid. You deserve it. You won, the Democrats lost, Bush is the President, Kerry isn't.

We get it now.

[jimmac]

Originally posted by Common Man
Make Dean your leader and you will be done .


Oooooohhhhhhhh! I'm soooooooo scared!

As if you would know.;)

[trumptman]

Originally posted by tonton
I too agree with him on every level, especially fiscal responsibility, and this:

"The President successfully turned a discussion about moral values into a discussion about gay marriage and abortion. I think moral values are also about how you treat poor people, how you treat those who are different, how you respect the opinion of others, and what you leave to your children. On those moral values, I think the Republicans lose. We need to talk about these values too."

This passage is practically delusional.

The Democratic party has run away from the values of middle America. Any look back to those good ol'Clinton years (you remember those, they are the ones that featured some Democrats winning) will show you this. Dean is a hard left turn and will run the party off the cliff.

The president DID NOT turn this into a discusssion about gay marriage and abortion. The news coverage barely mentioned any of this. The only matters that brought any of this up were leftist actions. Bush did not control the Massachusetts Supreme Court. Bush did not ask Newsome to defy state law even in liberal California and begin marrying hundreds of homosexual couples, often in front of large numbers of television cameras for all of middle America to see.

The left was very effective in broadcasting and declaring their agenda. It was rejected. Stem cells (code word for abortion) and any homosexual references were brought up constantly by the left in an attempt to crack the Republican party with a wedge issue. There are large numbers of Republicans who are pro-choice and Kerry and company were trying to get Bush to choose a side and crack the party along those lines. It didn't work. You do not feature Arnold and Rudy as prime time speakers when you are trying to remind people you are pro-life. Simply put it was a Democratic wedge issue that didn't work.

Clinton, Republicans and Democrats signed the Defense of Marriage Act. Clinton, Republicans and Democrats signed welfare reform ending welfare as a lifetime entitlement.

Some of us have better memories than Dr. Dean.

Some of us know that respecting the opinion of others doesn't mean forgoing what we believe. It doesn't mean doing nothing while they show nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't strike that perfect party line and walk in lockstep.

Republicans can feature pro-life, pro-choice and even Democrats at their convention. Meanwhile Democrats watch a Senate leader lose a state he held for 18 years and not question a single decision. The fact that the senator started out pro-life, pro-gun and pro-business and now is not means nothing. The fact that Al Gore would have been president if he carried his HOME STATE and he also started out with all three positions also means nothing.

The Republicans have room in their party for Republican lites. The even have room for a few Democrat-lites as shown in the likes of Arlen Specter and Rick Santorum representing the same state. It is the Democratic party that enforces a hard orthodoxy with no discussion or alternative thought allowed. You either agree or are scorned as a religious fanatic, Republican wannabe, Nazi, etc.

BTW, if you are using abortion as an issue you also don't go into the Pennsylvania primary and work against a hard right candidate and on behalf of Mr. Arlen which is exactly what Bush did.

Nick

[trumptman]

Originally posted by trick fall
"Having said all this, the Democratic Party needs an overhaul. We will never win by trying to be "Republican-lite".

Its time for the Democratic Party to start defining itself and stop worrying about how the right is going to define it. Its also time to shine a bright light on the fundamentalist freaks that run the Republican Party.

The Democratic Party doesn't need to start defining itself. It already knows perfectly well what it stands for. It doesn't even need an overhaul or a new message.

The problem is those beliefs are rejected by the majority of Americans. The only lack of effectiveness is in finding lies that will coverup their true beliefs.

Kerry on abortion for example. Abortion on demand, anytime, paid for by the government, even late term, with no parental notification, waiting periods, or counseling.

That is an extreme view. Trying to snow the American people by attempting to constantly reframe it as stem cell research doesn't work. No one bought it. The Kerry view is an extreme one.

You can say the Bush position is an extreme one for example, but Bush did allow the destruction of life that had already occurred to continue. He would not have done that if he had an extreme view. His explanation on stem cells was probably his best debate answer. Science is amoral. It must be guided by ethics.

Nick

[trick fall]

The only thing that can save anything is election reform that breaks the two party system


While nothing is perfect I'll take our two party system over any other form of democracy. It's serverd us well for quite awhile. Of course like capitalism itself its destined to completely break down every once in awhile, but that just means a new party will be birthed.

[trick fall]

Nick, perhaps I should've been more explicit and said, defining, articulating and selling itself, but I thought that was inferred.


As for your example to me the Democrats need to do a better job of explaining why it is none of your business if a woman decides to have an abortion and why personal religious beliefs should not be allowed to tyrannize the whole of society.

[Anders]

Originally posted by trick fall
While nothing is perfect I'll take our two party system over any other form of democracy. It's serverd us well for quite awhile. Of course like capitalism itself its destined to completely break down every once in awhile, but that just means a new party will be birthed.

No it means you have a political system that promotes strategic positioning over the political debate.

[Common Man]

Let me rephrase :

If you pick Dean as your leader you might as well board up the DNC HQ.

I don't expect you to be scarred, jimmac. You go on and talk about how I don't know what I'm talking about if that's what you think. However, when you have a chance, look at the scoreboard! The less you understand America, the better for us. Pick Dean . Go further left. I think it's a good idea.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by Common Man
Go further left. I think it's a good idea.

Finally, something we can agree upon...

[trumptman]

Originally posted by trick fall
Nick, perhaps I should've been more explicit and said, defining, articulating and selling itself, but I thought that was inferred.


As for your example to me the Democrats need to do a better job of explaining why it is none of your business if a woman decides to have an abortion and why personal religious beliefs should not be allowed to tyrannize the whole of society.

Again, that would mean that American needs to "buy" into Democratic beliefs that are extreme. It isn't the pitch but rather the product that has been rejected.

Your view, that someone informing their beliefs with a religious viewpoint is tantamount to tyranny is what made it impossible for John Kerry, a Catholic, to win the Catholic vote.

As for a woman and an abortion, we aren't even discussing first trimester or any other area where the arguments are more strident. Republicans have been beating Democrats with late term abortion, (third trimester) government funding of abortion, and parental notification of abortion by minors.

Those positions win clear, large majorities of the populace with regard to voting. No amount of education will change that. In fact especially with regard to science and what can be learned and shown in the third trimester now, it makes such a position almost political suicide since it appears to work against the scientific high ground the Democrats try to claim.

Nick

[trick fall]

Again, that would mean that American needs to "buy" into Democratic beliefs that are extreme. It isn't the pitch but rather the product that has been rejected.

I don't consider a secular state or seperation of church and state to be extreme viewpoints.

Those positions win clear, large majorities of the populace with regard to voting. No amount of education will change that. In fact especially with regard to science and what can be learned and shown in the third trimester now, it makes such a position almost political suicide since it appears to work against the scientific high ground the Democrats try to claim.

I'm sure people would've said the same thing about abolition and when has the religious right ever made an argument based on science?

I guess my faith is just different, I have faith in logic, reason and a hope that eventually good will triumph over evil small minded bigots and religious fanatics.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by trick fall
I don't consider a secular state or seperation of church and state to be extreme viewpoints.



I'm sure people would've said the same thing about abolition and when has the religious right ever made an argument based on science?

I guess my faith is just different, I have faith in logic, reason and a hope that eventually good will triumph over evil small minded bigots and religious fanatics.

You don't have to consider them to be extreme. However it is unlikely that a nation that has their "unalienable rights" given to them by their "creator" is ever going to be entirely secular. Also knowing what I just pointed out doesn't make one a "religious fanatic" or a "small-minded bigot."

However I do hope you continue to believe that so your party will remain in the minority for at least a generation.

I find it very humorous that you take some purely rational terms, reason and logic, and mix them in with some purely emotional terms, hope and good. A nuclear bomb is science, but is it good or evil? We inform science with ethics. Plenty of people use religion to help determine their ethical values. You may not choose to do so, but claiming those who do have nothing to add to public discussion insures that you will never be able to dialog with them, or receive their votes.

Nick

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Nick, change your sig. It's OK, the war criminal lost.

Let's hope for your sake that Barak Obama sleeps with Hilary Clinton or something or you'll be in trouble come 2008.

[Stoo]

Go further left. I think it's a good idea.

Go left, life is peaceful there.
Go left, lots of open air.

Is that left as in "central everywhere" else left, or genuine Commie left?