Christian Resconstructionism

[segovius]

The quest is over - we have finally found it: the appropriate term for the phenomena described inaccurately under the rubric "fundies" and "neocons" etc.

Those things exist but they are not what we have mostly been talking about when 'bashing' fundies and Bush for being 'Christian'. Now we have a name for the target:

Christian Reconstructionists (http://www.natreformassn.org/)

The above link is the site of the NRA - National Reform Association for Christian Politics, the base of Christian Reconstructionism. Before anyone dismisses them out of hand there are two issues to consider:

1) What they actually stand for - 'how mad are they ?' in effect.

2) The degree of power they have in government and policy.

Let's look at those. Some tasters of point 1 from Americans United for Separation of Church and State (http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5628&abbr=cs_) :

The Rev. William Einwechter has a novel solution to the problem of incorrigible juvenile delinquents -- stone them to death.

Einwechter says the stoning penalty is clearly called for in the Bible (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), and he's not ashamed to say that the punishment should still apply today.

"Properly understood," the Pennsylvania pastor argued in a January 1999 article, "it displays the wisdom and mercy of God in restraining wickedness so that the righteous might flourish in peace. It is those who reject this case law that should be embarrassed, for they have cast reproach on God and his law, cast aside the testimony of Christ and substituted their own imaginations for the blessed word of God."

Einwechter's piece appeared in Chalcedon Report, a magazine published by Christian Reconstructionists, the most aggressive and extreme wing of the Religious Right.

And just one more will suffice:

As if this were not controversial enough, Christian Reconstructionists also advocate an extreme vision of social policy. Citing passages from the Old Testament Books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, many Reconstructionists would institute the death penalty for a number of offenses, among them striking or cursing a parent, adultery, homosexuality, "unchastity," rape of a betrothed virgin, witchcraft, "incorrigible" juvenile delinquency, blasphemy and propagation of "false" religious doctrines. Some favor stoning as the biblically preferred means of execution.

So far so bad. Obviously nutjobs but the question is - "are these the same nutjobs that are the religous Bush supporting Right ?".

I think you'd better sit down:

Through their "Operation Potomac" project, Einwechter, NRA president Jeffrey A. Ziegler and other group leaders have made three forays into Washington, D.C., since July 2000, meeting with members of Congress and their staffs. With the help of powerful House Whip Tom DeLay (R-Texas), they hope next year to host a "biblical worldview" conference for congressional staff on Capitol Hill.

....During the last visit, the Christian Reconstructionist delegation also stopped at the White House, where it was warmly received by an official in the Office of Public Policy and Liaison; they also stopped in to visit with the staff of Ashcroft, now serving as attorney general.

While meeting with DeLay, Ziegler reported, the NRA officials made plans to sponsor a "biblical worldview seminar to be conducted at the Capitol" for congressional staffers. Although a date for the event has yet to be announced, Ziegler says it will occur next year. He also hopes to meet with President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney later this year or next.

Clearly we are faced with a fanatical threat from inside our own culture. While all eyes are being deliberately turned to a minimal threat from outside the true fanatics are massing within our own ranks.

It's much later than we think.

More on these maniacs here..... (http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/21/13392/6893)

[madmax559]

i for one support our new stoned overlords

frankly i think we will sink a long way before sanity
will prevail..

[dmz]

Originally posted by madmax559
i for one support our new stoned overlords



I think they mean business, Humboldt county all the way, none of this crap mexican red hair action.

[MarcUK]

This passage particularly interested me.

quote:
Israel - The nation of Israel ties heavily into Reconstructionist thinking, being the place they believe Jesus will first physically appear after his return. Further, since they believe that the Jews are ultimately doomed, they give little thought to the humanitarian violations visited upon the Palestinians by the Israeli government. Their only concern insofar as Israel is concerned is to make sure it continues to exist as a state until the Rapture comes.

Which answers a question I have previously been thinking about, but didn't think of an answer.

I couldn't understand why Xians and the US held Israel and its people with such high regard. When you consider Jews disagree with Xians even more than Islam does about the 'Sun', and to make bad comment about the 'Sun' is such a fucking crime...

Ah, selfishness again, wrapped up in a noble cause.

so we have a new term "reconstructies" :D

[pfflam]

Yes these people are scary and should be visited upon by a tribe of heroin addicted oil-rubbed, nubile belly dancers that curse 'fuckme haysoos you know ya want it' while hiking up their rumps a little bit higher on ever beat . . .

But anyway: BushCo doesn't actually give a hoot about these religious nut-cases: they are using them hook-line, sinker and every vote's worth and every dollar too . .

And their relationship to Israel is manifold: mostly because it is a Western culture in the heart of the Middle East, but also because it is an extension of US power . . .realpolitikally: the US and Israel are very close . . . Israel is like Hawaii to us . .. and we are like their big dumb gaurd dog . . .

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by pfflam
And their relationship to Israel is manifold: mostly because it is a Western culture in the heart of the Middle East,…
That is where both you and “they” (“their, them” etc.) are mistaken, Israel is not culturally Western. It may be a technologically advanced liberal democracy, and an infinitely better place to live if you are a woman, an artist, a troublemaker, a homosexual, an atheist, an apostate or all of the above, than anywhere else in the Middle-East (as well as some parts of the West). Yet Israel is culturally Middle-Eastern, something other Middle-Easterners have some difficulty coming to term with.

but also because it is an extension of US power . .
Not quite.
In the nineteen-fifties and early sixties, Israel's ally was France, yet it was no more an extension of French power then than of U.S. power now.
Need I remind you that at the time of Israel's founding it was under U.S. military embargo, and was not a recipient of the Marshall plan or any other U.S. aid, unlike Western Europe and Yugoslavia?

.realpolitikally: the US and Israel are very close . . . Israel is like Hawaii to us
There are no U.S. troops stationed in Israel, perhaps Qatar might be more like it.

. .. and we are like their big dumb gaurd dog . . .
For the time being the U.S. military has not intervened on Israel's behalf (let's just ignore this time the many claims that every U.S. intervention is in Israel's behalf shall we?)
Whether it was in 1958 in Lebanon's behalf, in 1991 in Kuwait's behalf, and for more than ten years for which U.S. armed forces acted as bodyguard for the smelly Saudi dynastic rulers, if the U.S. has ever been a “big dumb gaurd dog” (sic) to anyone in the area it was not to Israel but to several Arab countries.

It is true however that although the U.S. has been much more protective of several Arab countries than of Israel, the U.S. is nevertheless the only western country to be overtly and consistently supportive of Israel (and that what's unforgivable), and that was just as true under the previously “heathen” administrations and for wholly “secular” reasons.

[Anders]

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
That is where both you and “they” (“their, them” etc.) are mistaken, Israel is not culturally Western. It may be a technologically advanced liberal democracy, and an infinitely better place to live if you are a woman, an artist, a troublemaker, a homosexual, an atheist, an apostate or all of the above, than anywhere else in the Middle-East (as well as some parts of the West). Yet Israel is culturally Middle-Eastern, something other Middle-Easterners have some difficulty coming to term with.

Huh? In what way? What I have seen in Israel is either what I would suspect from a south european country (economically wise) or a mix of south, north and east european and russian (family structure, ethics etc).

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by Anders
Huh? In what way? What I have seen in Israel is either what I would suspect from a south european country (economically wise) or a mix of south, north and east european and russian (family structure, ethics etc).
Lebanon also enjoys more varied cultural influences than many countries in the area, yet is unmistakebly Middle-Eastern; when it comes to east/west mix the two countries are really quite similar.
Israel might enjoy a political and economical level comparable to that of Spain or Italy (one shudders at the thought that it could have reached the level of “a fucking dreamworld” had its existence mostly been accepted by its neighbours and had it given up consumption of messianic hallucinogens), but the Eurovision song constest notwithstanding and despite protests to the contrary from many descendents of the Ashkenazic founder generation, at the end of day it is definitely the Levant and more so at the end of each day.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
snip Well . . . . the least that can be said is that we seem to be sharing common interests as far as the maintanance or establishment of power in the region. . . sure Israel has not actually had the US intercede but now, it is a commonly understood ntion that the US and Israel would commit whatever is necessary to support one-another . . . the 2 countries seem to be somewhat dependant, and have very 'cheery' relationship.

Israel stands up for itself, but it is no secret that they and the US have been standing along-side for a long time . . . . perhaps the religious nutters are responsible(but I doubt it), or maybe its the 'Democratic' nature (if you're a Jew that is), or maybe it has something to do with the origins of many of the populace coming from Europe and America . . . many having dual property even, and family here . . . whatever it is, there is definitely a sense of alliance . . .

I am pretty much all for it . . . the point was though, that I don't think that the Nutters, the two-faced Apocallypters, have that much influence on the relationship . . . for one, they are being used by the Bush administration, and two, they are deeply anti-Semitic: they just want Jews to serve a purpose, and then either convert or go away to a very hot, eternal and non-existent place . . .

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by pfflam
Well . . . . the least that can be said is that we seem to be sharing common interests as far as the maintanance or establishment of power in the region. . .
As is the case with Japan and Western European countries except those depend more on the U.S. for their defence.

Israel stands up for itself, but it is no secret that they and the US have been standing along-side for a long time . . . . perhaps the religious nutters are responsible(but I doubt it), or maybe its the 'Democratic' nature (if you're a Jew that is),…
Or an Arab, a Druze, or a Circassian. While there is discrimination against Arabs in Israel, it is mostly due to the the very ethnic nature of the conflict in question.
Unlike in the Netherlands however, Israeli mosques and Muslim schools don't get torched at the first murder committed by a Muslim extremist.

…or maybe it has something to do with the origins of many of the populace coming from Europe and America . . . many having dual property even, and family here . . .
What's “dual property”, an iMac and a Mercedes?

Roughly half of Israeli Jews are of Middle-Eastern, North African, and South/Central Asian diasporas, the other half (counting the cultural enclave of those recently arrived from the former U.S.S.R.) is of European diaspora background; most Israelis Jews are Israeli-born and are likely to have relatives abroad (a common Jewish theme everywhere), mostly in the West as other diasporas are often emptied of their Jews, sometimes North America but not especially so.

whatever it is, there is definitely a sense of alliance . . .
Certainly.

I am pretty much all for it . . . the point was though, that I don't think that the Nutters, the two-faced Apocallypters, have that much influence on the relationship . . .
You are right.

…for one, they are being used by the Bush administration, and two, they are deeply anti-Semitic: they just want Jews to serve a purpose, and then either convert or go away to a very hot, eternal and non-existent place . . .
I wouldn't make a collective judgement, but there's definitely some antisemitic features in an approach which seeks to see all the Jews soon converted all the while encouraging Israel to escalate a conflict rather than to find a negociated solution (mind you it's the same as those self-styled ‘progressives’ who are supportive of the Palestinians in the sense of supporting their instransigent factions).

After a while, when it becomes clear apocalypse is nowehere to be seen guess who'll be blamed for failing to deliver?

[segovius]

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
After a while, when it becomes clear apocalypse is nowehere to be seen guess who'll be blamed for failing to deliver?

It's a very interesting point - my question would be: how long is 'after a while' ?

How long before we can conclude that (Messianic/Apocalyptic) religion is a wrong hypothesis and we are merely waiting for Godot ?

How long before we can consign it to the dustbin of history ? A lifetime ? A century ? Millennia ?

I'd like to think we are quite near this point personally and all the increased fundie activity in all religions are merely the final death throes. The rage against the dying of the light.

Sometimes I'm not so sure though.

[MarcUK]

How possible is it that Solomons temple could be rebuilt any time soon? Are their prior conditions that have to be met, before there is any point. Remember something about seeing a 'red' heifer. couldn't that be GM engineered?

Personally If it was possible, I would start reconstructing it today.

Seg, does the Qu'ran have end time revelations? Similar to Xian? return of Jesus?

[segovius]

Originally posted by MarcUK
How possible is it that Solomons temple could be rebuilt any time soon? Are their prior conditions that have to be met, before there is any point. Remember something about seeing a 'red' heifer. couldn't that be GM engineered?

Personally If it was possible, I would start reconstructing it today.

Seg, does the Qu'ran have end time revelations? Similar to Xian? return of Jesus?

As it happens yes - and this is my all time fave topic :D

I've rambled on interminably about this in the past but it always worth another blast. Check this stuff out:

Firstly in the end time the antichrist will turn up. This is the beginning of the end. He has a symbol he can be recognised by and his simple is one eye. That is he is described as being 'one-eyed' and also this is his 'icon'.

One comment only here (ok - two !):

http://garibaldi.marway.org/~hacker23/darpa-logo-1.jpg

http://garibaldi.marway.org/~hacker23/tn-eye_pyramid.jpg

After the antichrist the religion of Islam will be totally corrupted and the opposite of what Muhammud originally taught. This is an actual quote from Muhammad on this issue:

`There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious_ leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'

Then there are some specific prophecies which precede the second coming of Christ (have confirmatory links of these if any one interested):


It will be hot in winter (and vice versa).
The length of days is stretched, i.e. a journey of a few days is covered in a matter of hours.
The nations of the earth will gather against the Muslims like hungry people going to sit down to a table full of food. This will occur when the Muslims are large in number, but "like the foam of the sea".
Rain will be acidic or burning
The people of Iraq will recieve no food and no money due to oppression
People will hop between the clouds and the earth
Smog will appear over cities because of the evil that they are doing
Earthquakes will increase (Bukhari & Muslim)
There will be attempts to make the deserts green
The conquest of Constantinople by the Muslims (Ahmad)
The conquest of India by the Muslims,
The Euphrates will disclose a treasure
A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening in his home.
Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men
Three major landslides (one in the East, one in the West, and one on the Arabian peninsula).


Also there are some that tell of fires in Baghdad and a war there prior to the utter destruction of Syria.

The Ka'aba at Mecca will also be destroyed and then Jesus will return. Tradition has it he will return in Damascus but this must mean before the destruction of Syria (which may not be an orthodox prophecy anyway).

There is also a 'rapture' like belief where the souls of the good are taken by a strange wind and only the 'bad' are left behind on earth.

[MarcUK]

I know you're into this fortean stuff, check this out!

http://www.exopolitics.org/Eye-Horus.htm

and then there's this, any relation to your one eye. The dollar symbols are apparently symbolic of it, from the Masonic or illuminati belief system, based on Eqyptian culture.

http://eyeofhorussymbol.homestead.com/links.html

read more at (page 20, if that's too much)

http://ancientegypt.hypermart.net/

[MarcUK]

Oh yeah, nearly forgot, I chanced across a program, think it was on Channel4 or BBC2 last night, about "Ancient Plastic surgery", did you see it?

Awesome, the Greeks and Romans were practising plastic surgery 2500 years ago, liposuction, eye tucks, mad stuff! because of the information learned at Alexandria, - until some morans burnt it all.

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by segovius
It's a very interesting point - my question would be: how long is 'after a while' ?
That depends on the patience-span of the apocalypticals, when their patience is gone the while will be done.

I'd like to think we are quite near this point personally and all the increased fundie activity in all religions are merely the final death throes.
Perhaps.

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by segovius

The Euphrates will disclose a treasure

The Ka'aba at Mecca will also be destroyed

There is also a 'rapture' like belief where the souls of the good are taken by a strange wind and only the 'bad' are left behind on earth.

would like links / more info on these?

[pfflam]

Originally posted by segovius

A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening in his home.
At about this point yer getting pretty damn spooky . . .

What are the sources of this. . Qu'ran verses?

ANyway . . . strange world . . .


I remember when I was younger I used to watch Doctor Gene Scott . . . and he was trumpeting on about the Dual prophecy of the book of Daniel (a favorite with kooks cause it can mean anything) and he said a couple of things that were 'spooky'

One: that the Apocalypse would be precipitated by one guy in a turban . . probably blue . . . and at the time it was the war with Iraq#1 . . . so he was saying 'this aint it . . . but it will be someone else there soon'
and, that the Beast would, at that time, be princes ruling the air.

Now, only one power seems to have dominance of the air in the ME these days . . . I got to thinking . . . . Bush Sr (at the time)=anti-Christ?

Anyway . . . I stopped taking so many drugs and grew up some . . so now I just get a kick out of the way that mystagogues can make things seem 'spooky' . . .

[MarcUK]

But is it MacBeth?

[segovius]

Originally posted by MarcUK
would like links / more info on these?

No probs. it's difficult to find objective data on the net. That is to say, metaphorical - I am not a lteraist as you know and so I would interpret some of these things symbolically which is unfashionable.

Clearly many are meant literally though and quite a few have happened already.

The actual quote from muhammad re the Ka'aba is this:

The Ka’bah will be destroyed by Dhu’l-Suwayqatayn from Ethiopia. And Allah will take the Qur’an away from the earth, and not one ayah of it will be left or in people’s hearts. Allah will not permit His Book to remain on earth if it is not benefitting anyone and no one is acting in accordance with it. So this thing will come to pass.

Of course the literalists would see that as a call to a strict interpretation of shariah and believe the absence of this (ie moderate Islam) to be what the prophecy refers to. I would interpret it th eother way round - the Qur'an as understood by the fundies is what is referred to - the original meaning 'has been taken'.

Clearly the destruction of the Ka'ba is meant literally as the perp is named.

The 'Euphrates treasure' is generally considered to be oil but I have also heard that it refers to water which will become very scarce. The literal intent states 'gold' and warns anyone there when it happens not to take any as it is cursed.

This link (http://etori.tripod.com/dajjalsystem/judgement.html) outlines the major and minor prophecies - the site is a bit wild and conspiracy orientated but the prophecies are authentic transmissions I think. Should have about the wind somewhere there.

As I say, a lot of it is literalist and interpreted in a fundie way but much isn't. It's interesting I think.

Originally posted by pfflam
What are the sources of this. . Qu'ran verses?

No they are what is called hadith which is statements of Muhammad, kind of answers to questions people asked him and obviously, many were about the end of the world. They don't have the 'authority' of Qur'an verses but they were written down by people around him and transmitted through the generations.

Some are very interesting such as the statement that it will be possible to somehow do three or four day's journey in a few hours. There is also one that says that someone born a woman will be able to become a man and vice versa.

It's quite fascinating when you think this was all derived from desert nomad culture in the Arabian peninsular of the 7th century.

[MarcUK]

do you think God sent Mohammed as the last prophet because the message of Jesus was so corrupted by the catholics?

[segovius]

Originally posted by MarcUK
do you think God sent Mohammed as the last prophet because the message of Jesus was so corrupted by the catholics?

No. I do not believe in an interventionist God.

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by segovius
No. I do not believe in an interventionist God.

then why would God send any prophets?

[segovius]

Originally posted by MarcUK
then why would God send any prophets?

Imo He did not send them as such Prophethood is (or was) a state that one can achieve in the sense of 'enlightenment' or the like in Buddhist traditions.

This is a personal and unorthodox opinion though and the local Mullah wouldn't like it.

[MarcUK]

can one be truly enlightened, if at the back of ones mind there is the suspicion that it might not be true?

[pfflam]

Originally posted by MarcUK
can one be truly enlightened, if at the back of ones mind there is the suspicion that it might not be true? the state 'enlightenment' is not like being saved and belief and all that stuff . . its a state of being . . . if you are anxious a the core you can still be enlightened but it would be an enlightened anxiety -- doubt would still be enlightened . .

as someone said: "an enlightened asshole is still an asshole"

[segovius]

Originally posted by MarcUK
can one be truly enlightened, if at the back of ones mind there is the suspicion that it might not be true?

Not according to my understanding although clearly, as is fairly well known and apparent, I am not enlightened.

Imo, the state of enlightenment would be one of complete self-knowledge so 'suspicions' of things relating to one's inner state would not be present.

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by segovius
Not according to my understanding although clearly, as is fairly well known and apparent, I am not enlightened.


do you think that might be because we have gone down the wrong path?

Would you rather be 'enlightened' and happy, but from our point of view 'believing falsehoods' or unhappy and seeking the truth?

[pfflam]

Well . . . since I've been enlightened going on to about ten years now ;)

no, but seriously . . . you're probably right Segovious . . . but I do believe that that sort of enlightenment is close to not even possible
. . I tend to think that a form of beatitude, a form that can circumscribe the Egoic aspects of one's being, can be called 'enlightenmnet' and can co-exist with all the other selves that make up a person . . . in fact, I tend to think that there is always that aspect co-terminous with experience . . . but it is more or less acknowledged according to one's clarity of mind . . .

I guess that means a 'Buddha-nature' sort of state is always existent, even psychologically, but not completely apparent.

I suppose if one feels the need to acknowledge people who had been completely denuded with that state of clarity --'prophets', enlightened ones etc, then that is fine-- but I tend to to dwell on or idolze them

I guess I should probably listen-up, as they say, and check out more about said people's ways of being and thought forms . . . since I tend to run circles around my own minor skandas and self perpetuated miseries . . . even though they're engulfed in a larger bliss . . . or so I trust . . .

[MarcUK]

I havn't really paid attention to pfflam's beliefs much, sorry pfflam, where are you coming from? what is it you believe?

[segovius]

Originally posted by pfflam
Well . . . since I've been enlightened going on to about ten years now ;)

no, but seriously . . . you're probably right Segovious . . . but I do believe that that sort of enlightenment is close to not even possible
. . I tend to think that a form of beatitude, a form that can circumscribe the Egoic aspects of one's being, can be called 'enlightenmnet' and can co-exist with all the other selves that make up a person . . . in fact, I tend to think that there is always that aspect co-terminous with experience . . . but it is more or less acknowledged according to one's clarity of mind . . .

I guess that means a 'Buddha-nature' sort of state is always existent, even psychologically, but not completely apparent.

I suppose if one feels the need to acknowledge people who had been completely denuded with that state of clarity --'prophets', enlightened ones etc, then that is fine-- but I tend to to dwell on or idolze them

I guess I should probably listen-up, as they say, and check out more about said people's ways of being and thought forms . . . since I tend to run circles around my own minor skandas and self perpetuated miseries . . . even though they're engulfed in a larger bliss . . . or so I trust . . .

Yes, you make some valid points, thinking is the great impediment isn't it?

I once read a talk of Bankei, a 15th (?) century Zen Master, and he was speaking to a group of people under some trees. they asked what they had to do to realise the Buddha mind and what it was and he replied that all the time they had been listening to his talk, they had also heard on another level, the birds and the wind in the trees. That was the buddha mind he said.

I think it must be something like that - we have it but don;t have it - our thoughts and ego get in the way.

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by segovius
Yes, you make some valid points, thinking is the great impediment isn't it?


im sure you could crack a sarcastic joke now ;), but sometimes I wish that I was of just average intelligence, and didn't think much, just went with the flow, and maybe I'd be happy and content. Is intelligence a curse?

[segovius]

Originally posted by MarcUK
im sure you could crack a sarcastic joke now ;), but sometimes I wish that I was of just average intelligence, and didn't think much, just went with the flow, and maybe I'd be happy and content. Is intelligence a curse?

I dunno (duh !) - I do know thinking isn't the way. I have met many 'simple' people who are very 'advanced'.

It may be more about 'sensing' or some other skill we are unaware of than thinking.

Don't personally think it's about happiness and contentment either though. Everything may be a trap.

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by segovius
I dunno (duh !) - I do know thinking isn't the way. I have met many 'simple' people who are very 'advanced'.

It may be more about 'sensing' or some other skill we are unaware of than thinking.

Don't personally think it's about happiness and contentment either though. Everything may be a trap.

therein lies the problem for me, are 'simple' people very 'advanced' because they don't have the capacity to realise the flaws of thier simplicity?

[pfflam]

Originally posted by MarcUK
I havn't really paid attention to pfflam's beliefs much, sorry pfflam, where are you coming from? what is it you believe? Welll . . . harrumph!!

If you had been paying attention I think that I have been pretty prolific in several threads lately, laying out my Anti/Onto/theology. . . check out Pass the Ammo, this thread and others . . . and, as I say in my profile . . . I pretty much come from FLUX ;)

I think your notion of meeting yourself (the TDE thread) is both exciting and terrifying: reminds me of Neitszche's Eternal Reccurence: if it were a reality than in orderr to accept it without absolute dread, one would have to deeply accept being . . . or something like that . . .

I guess the resemblance to the Nietsxche thing is more in intensity than any one-one similarity . . .

Boy, I can tell allready, I'm gonna be a candidate for some serious self-deception . . . . aargh!!!

[pfflam]

Originally posted by MarcUK
therein lies the problem for me, are 'simple' people very 'advanced' because they don't have the capacity to realise the flaws of thier simplicity? BTW: big difference between 'simple' and simplistic . . .

and there are many ways of understanding: a woodworker 'understands' his task, understands his materials and his woodshop without thinking about it . . . if he had to articulate each aspect of his work then it might demand being verbally, conceptually 'intelligent' . . . He might also be able to explain hand-in-hand with doing . . .

I suppose, following this form of reasoning, that this is why forms of 'spirituality'/Philosophy that include constant work are superior to head-games and gotcha metaphysics (Damn!!!)
Meditating ('Prayer,' i guess, if it isn't just asking for Christmas presents and good things for the prayee) even (and especially?!) Yoga . . .
But still I think that there is a real place for intellectual work: I think that the clearer one can 'think', and the more one is accostomed to at least trying to think, then the better they can reflect on even simple things . . . like woodworking.

I am not much of a thinker, I have pretensions to having once been involved with thinking . . . but now, its just here on these boards and while discussing art history and theory in classes . .
I also do not meditate . . .
but, just as woodworking can be a means of achieving flow and insight if done reflectively, I try to make my relationship with art-creation take the role of reflection and coming to understanding . . .

But then again I;m a prime candidate for seriously self-decieved . . .