Outsider's view on America [Archive]

Sceptic

01-29-2005, 03:58 PM

As a New Zealander, I have to say the America of the last 5 years is a very different beast to the one I used to look up to in the 90s.

Economically, you guys are so far down the shitter it is hard to fathom. With ever increasing war costs, lowering productivity gains, and an inability to live within your means, how will you EVER pay off the debt you are accumulating? Forget about GDP increases. There is no dot com this time around. I guess you could keep rolling the debt over. Until Asian central banks stop bankingrolling you guys.

Socially, you guys are regressing into Christian fundamentalism. The 10 commandments in your Court rooms?! 50% of the country born again christians?! Evolution being replaced by CREATIONISM?! My gawd.

Politically, you have a leader who wants to spread liberty around the world, but doesn't seem too interested in liberty within his own country. Patriot act? Banning protests at his innauguration? That bay in Cuba? (oh yeah it is some extra-judicial zone where no law applies, right?)

Can some American explain to me WHAT THE FUCK you guys are doing?

Anders

01-29-2005, 04:03 PM

Nice roll up of the latest 100 threads here :D

Someone have a neatly packed answer? 42? If not let this sink ever so gently.

pfflam

01-29-2005, 04:13 PM

But its so nice to see the truth said with such directness!!

Yes, what is happening?!?!?

Good question: somehow we expect the forces of any possible fascism would wear black and red and beat-up Jews . . . we never thought that our best principles 'Democracy et al' would become the very tool used agaisnt us . .. or wielded terribly in our name . .

andas for the whole loss of our economy, lack of production . . . no shit!!!

just try to buy ANYTHING here that is not made in China!!

Anders

01-29-2005, 04:22 PM

Let me rephrase that.

If I see no original contents within the next three posts this thread is closed.

Specific subjects are preferred over general ones. And all issues in the first post are discussed elsewhere.

So please surprise me with something new, like pointing to general trends that encompass all three issues.

Sceptic

01-29-2005, 04:33 PM

Hassan i Sabbah

01-29-2005, 08:18 PM

http://storetn.cafepress.com/4/4415524_F_store.jpg

crazychester

01-29-2005, 09:31 PM

I'm so confused. I don't know whether, as an Australian, to poke fun at the Kiwi, or cheer because the post is so without artifice and all the usual wanky crap.

I think I'll cheer. Hooray!

Trying hard to think of original content. Nope. Can't. The original post sums it up so perfectly there's nothing more to say. Ah well, so much for that. Back to everybody disappearing up their own arses as usual, I guess. Being half a world away from everybody else isn't an impediment. It's a state of mind.

pfflam

01-29-2005, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by Anders
Let me rephrase that.

If I see no original contents within the next three posts this thread is closed.

Specific subjects are preferred over general ones. And all issues in the first post are discussed elsewhere.

So please surprise me with something new, like pointing to general trends that encompass all three issues. What the hell are you worried about . . . its not like people are clamoring to get into Political Outsider in order to get a word in edge-wise . . . . sheesh.

As far as original . . . I think this fellow has pointed out soemthing that is not talked about enough here . . . and that is the complete decimation of the American Industrial Base . . . . thanks to Wallmart etc . . .

This is an important topic and is a real sign of everything that he mentioned: 48% of Government Bonds were purchased by the Chinese last year . . . why?!
In order to prop up a dollar that should be far weaker than it is . . .

Persopnally, I think that we should let the dollar sink . . . that way, at least it would be an incentive to have manufacture return to the US . . .

anyway

hardeeharhar

01-29-2005, 09:56 PM

Burn baby burn...

Scott

01-29-2005, 11:00 PM

I'm always amazed at how ignorant these "outsider views" are.

SpcMs

01-29-2005, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Scott
I'm always amazed at how ignorant these "outsider views" are.
Care to explain? I'm sure the 'outsiders' are willing to learn a thing or two :)

Scott

01-30-2005, 12:32 AM

Sure. Here's one. Sceptic claims, with no proof, that productivity is down in the US. That is ignorance. Also when did Creationism replace Evolution? It didn't. That is ignorance.

Just another hysterical "progressive" that doesn't really understand the US at all.

madmax559

01-30-2005, 01:30 AM

scott is partially correct. productivity is still up.
i moved here in 1995
what really scares me is the fact that the avg person is completely
ignorant of the outside world or any history whatsoever.
i sometimes feel like im living in a tunnel

Sceptic

01-30-2005, 01:57 AM

Scott

01-30-2005, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by Sceptic
That is my point. I don't understand the US.

You can nit pick but haven't offered an explanation of what the US stands for now, or where it is going.

To me that is telling.

You're the one that started the thread. None of your assertions are backed up by any facts. You may as well post that the grass is blue and the sky is green.

MarcUK

01-30-2005, 08:32 AM

Scott, the whole world thinks America is going down the shitter, half of America thinks America is going down the shitter,

Infact, the only people who don't think it, are the Republicans in power and it's fanbase. Why is that?

There has never been a time in history where so many people think America is going down the shitter. It isn't a coincidence.

Harald

01-30-2005, 09:29 AM

Seeing as we're doing 10,000 metre world views:

The foreign debt your write about is predicated upon the fact the oil is still invoiced in dollars. That is, the debt is serviced by people who trust they will get their money back ... because every barrel of oil underground is a dollar waiting to be pumped up. Security.

As soon as it becomes clear that global oil production has peaked, the US is FUBAR. Like, FUBAR. And we've got 40? 60? years of oil undeground. But oil ain't gonna just stop totally one day, but tail off gradually. It's going to peak Real Soon Now.

If countries started to invoice in, say, euros (like Iraq started to do before invasion), the same thing would happen. Total collapse of the dollar; hyperinflation, bleats requesting the world writes off foreign debt so it can eat.

IF the dollar collapses, you're looking in some ways like Germany in the 30's: a very arrogant society feeling shat on by the world; a middle-class and intelligensia believing crazy shit about the country's role in the world, and mythologising its past; a messianic corrupt spritualism / nationalism in government, a profoundly polarised populace, and a HUGE ARMY. Oh, and the belief that anything is worth it to maintain the American Way of Life®.

SDW2001

01-30-2005, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by MarcUK
Scott, the whole world thinks America is going down the shitter, half of America thinks America is going down the shitter,

Infact, the only people who don't think it, are the Republicans in power and it's fanbase. Why is that?

There has never been a time in history where so many people think America is going down the shitter. It isn't a coincidence.

I love that last statement.

Scott

01-30-2005, 09:44 AM

Hummm? I wonder why a bunch of "progressives" are so eager to declare the US in the "shitter"?

spindler

01-30-2005, 09:51 AM

Sceptic wrote:

"Can some American explain to me WHAT THE FUCK you guys are doing?"

While I'm a far left liberal, a lot of what was in your initial post is simply the sensationalism of the media. There have ALWAYS been millions of Americans that wanted to get rid of evolution. It just wasn't reported because they were considered crackpots by us city people and we knew that the law mandates separation of church and state. Now any little thing that happens in some hick town in Alabama is reported (not all Alabamans are hicks, just some)

There have ALWAYS been people working to get rid of abortion. With 50% for and 50% against, there's no way abortion should have ever been considered something that will stay around forever. It's always been in jeopardy but not necessarily any more than it is now.

The same goes for most of the other stuff.

e1618978

01-30-2005, 09:53 AM

Mr Sceptic

Your post is no different from the anti-apple posts over the
years ('Apple is in the shitter, will die at any moment').

I was raised in Canada, and I am an Athiest living in the American
South - from my viewpoint the economy is coming back, the
religious right (for all their bluster) have not made any real gains,
and the patriot act has not affected anyone I know.

The media is giving you a twisted idea of things - before I moved
here, I expcted things to be like the movies - lots of lynchings and
horrible bigoted rednecks, it isn't like that here.

I had the same experiece when I went to Isreal a few years ago
for business - Isreal is safer than Philidelphia. I went to the west
bank, everything was very safe there.

The US is not as nice a place as Canada, Australia or New Zealand,
but it has its good points. Remember your own country also has problems,
with all the people on the dole laying on beaches and surfing (at least
it is like this in Australia, I am assuming it is also like this in New Zealand).

It wasn't that long ago that your ancestors were slaughtering natives
and taking their land, just like here. The only successful genocides were
in Tasmania and Canada.

Hassan i Sabbah

01-30-2005, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by e1618978
Mr Sceptic

Your post is no different from the anti-apple posts over the
years ('Apple is in the shitter, will die at any moment').

I was raised in Canada, and I am an Athiest living in the American
South - from my viewpoint the economy is coming back, the
religious right (for all their bluster) have not made any real gains,
and the patriot act has not affected anyone I know.

snip

natives
and taking there land, just like here. The only successful genocides were
in Tasmania and Canada.
Can you stop putting hard returns in when your sentences reach the end of the text box, or whatever it is you do?

It's really irritating. I don't know why.

Please, do it for me.

e1618978

01-30-2005, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Can you stop putting hard returns in when your sentences reach the end of the text box, or whatever it is you do?

It's really irritating. I don't know why.

Please, do it for me.

Sorry, backslided. I actually like it better my way, but nobody else seems to.

Powerdoc

01-30-2005, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by e1618978
Sorry, backslided. I actually like it better my way, but nobody else seems to.

Well I love that way for poems, but I guess it's not a poem. :p

pfflam

01-30-2005, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Scott
Sure. Here's one. Sceptic claims, with no proof, that productivity is down in the US. That is ignorance. Also when did Creationism replace Evolution? It didn't. That is ignorance.

Just another hysterical "progressive" that doesn't really understand the US at all. Our gingantic trade deficit would seem to argue against there being such enourmous productivity . . . what there has been, has been a huge shift to services and general consumption: there are not that many things that you can name that are exclusivley made in America anymore . . . not Levis, not Converse Shoes, not Macs, . . . some cars have manufacture here (sort of) . . . but we are so dependant on car production and sales that it is dangerous . . a blip in sales and the ripples are strong . . . Harley Davidson: and they play up that MIAmerica stuff with their silly aesthetic package to the hilt . . . but then why shouldn't they . . . it really does make them unique.

Scott

01-30-2005, 06:36 PM

Productivity is measured independent of the trade deficit. In fact, gains in productivity over the years are blamed in part for the weak recovery of jobs. Why hire more people when the people you already have can produce more?

This is for 2003 but you can't ignore the trend.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prin.nr0.htm

madmax559

01-30-2005, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Scott
Why hire more people when the people you already have can produce more?

I feel off my chair laughing when I read this.
You do realize people in some sectors are working insane hours
& that also a lot of work has been outsourced.
I have quite a few friends who are highly qualified & still unable to
find work.
Where do come up with this stuff & what is your education level ?

Scott

01-30-2005, 10:05 PM

Isn't that the point. Increase in productivity means you don't need to hire. So you're friends are out of work because those other people are working "insane hours".

Also can you quantify "lot of work has been outsourced" the labor boogie man of the new millennium.

Sceptic

01-30-2005, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Scott
Productivity is measured independent of the trade deficit. In fact, gains in productivity over the years are blamed in part for the weak recovery of jobs. Why hire more people when the people you already have can produce more?

This is for 2003 but you can't ignore the trend.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prin.nr0.htm

Productivity is relevant to the FISCAL deficit.

IF productivity can increase, one would expect increases in GDP and a subsequent increase in tax revenue, which will offset some of the increased expenditure.

My original point was that there is no way current productivity gain levels will be able to increase GDP to the extent that tax revenue will be able to negate the current fiscal deficit.

re the trade deficit, given that it is STILL growing despite the fact the US dollar has depreciated by roughly 30% in recent times, how much further do you think it needs to fall?

I personally cannot see a way out of the US re the FISCAL or TRADE deficits, short of rampant protectionism (see 1929 era economic theory), or significantly increased taxes. Either way, it is going to hurt.

Scott

01-30-2005, 10:13 PM

Productivity has increased. It's a fact that you are ignorant of. Among other things. The reason you can't see anyway out of it is because you have chosen your conclusion and now create a fiction to justify it.

Sceptic

01-30-2005, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Scott
Productivity has increased. It's a fact that you are ignorant of. Among other things. The reason you can't see anyway out of it is because you have chosen your conclusion and now create a fiction to justify it.

And you think current productivity gains are going to increase GDP to the extent that taxes will be able to offset increased expenditure?

Because if not, there is very little point in arguing about 1-3% productivity increases.

Can you try to explain to me what America is doing economically/socially/politially without getting bogged down in straw issues?

Scott

01-30-2005, 10:46 PM

I didn't say that. You said productivity was down. It's not. It's up. You were wrong.

You hate Bush and so come up with reasons, most you make up, as to why we are in the "shitter". Stop posing things that are factually wrong and I wont have to point them out for you.

I know I know. You hate Bush and so you see the glass half empty with a bottomless pit at the bottom (ha ha). Point taken. Congratulations on your thread.