the pope... [Archive] - AppleInsider

segovius

02-25-2005, 04:02 AM

Originally posted by Frank777
Wanting to live as long as possible - to complete the work you believe God gave you - is not the same as being afraid to die.

Hold on - this smells like bad theology.......

If the Pope is God's appointee on earth and the 'work' was given him by God then surely the fact that he is lying terminally ill in hospital is an indication of the fact that that work is now over.

In short, as MarcUk so astutely points out, it is his time to go to account for his actions to the Grand Architect of the Universe and (presumably, in his view) receive his eternal reward.

Only he doesn't seem in such a hurry to leave this Vale of Tears and pick up the glittering prize.......why could that be I wonder ?

johnrp

02-25-2005, 04:51 AM

I'm not particularly religious, I was brought up as a Christian and try to live my life with a pretty high moral code.

If pushed I would even say I am if anything an aethist.

However I do feel thet this particular pope has been a god one, If you look at the power the guy has and how he has chosen to use it I think you will agree that he as tried to do good and not abused his position.

I hope the next one (when there is one) will be of the same high standards. Which is not always the case with powerfull positions.

j.

Nightcrawler

02-25-2005, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by johnrp
However I do feel thet this particular pope has been a god one..

LOL, if that isn't a freudian typo..

But on topic, I think every pope fears/feared death because they knew/know pretty well that God would await them angry about them preaching Jesus were His son or even God himself, but maybe that's just my islamic tainted view.

Nightcrawler

segovius

02-25-2005, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by Nightcrawler
LOL, if that isn't a freudian typo..

But on topic, I think every pope fears/feared death because they knew/know pretty well that God would await them angry about them preaching Jesus were His son or even God himself, but maybe that's just my islamic tainted view.

Nightcrawler

Yes, they will definitely have to explain that as well as a lot of other things.....

MarcUK

02-25-2005, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by Frank777
Well as an Evangelical I take issue with that, but it's beside the point here.

Wanting to live as long as possible - to complete the work you believe God gave you - is not the same as being afraid to die.

As Segovius points out, it is clear that God is ready for the pope, but it seems the pope is not ready for God, because he is resorting to the human philosophy of sciences of the Medicine to drag out a few more weeks on this miserable planet as opposed to eternal paradise he is so promised.

Now, as it is you Frank, I will have to point out that this is because the Pope knows (as he has access to all the Christian scriptures, theologians and advisors one could ever desire) that his little fairytale is based on astrology and sunworship, and when it finally comes to put 'the money where the mouth is', he knows damn well, once its over - its over. Or atleast that he's in big trouble :D

Actually Frank, a serious question - from an evangelicals point of view, what is so seriously wrong with the pope and his church that gets an evangelicals blood boiling?

segovius

02-25-2005, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by MarcUK
Now, as it is you Frank, I will have to point out that this is because the Pope knows (as he has access to all the Christian scriptures, theologians and advisors one could ever desire) that his little fairytale is based on astrology and sunworship, and when it finally comes to put 'the money where the mouth is', he knows damn well, once its over - its over. Or atleast that he's in big trouble :D

While we're on this one - wtf is going on with this Secret of Fatima ? I'm starting to think there might be some truth to your rantings :D

Sister Lucy, the last recipient of the visions has just died and guess what ? Her cell has been sealed off on the orders of Cardinal Ratzinger and all correspondence between her and the Pope and all her lifetime journals are being 'evaluated' by the Vatican:

The very next day Vittorio Messori, one of Italy's top journalists, whose interview of John Paul II became the best-selling book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, broke the stunning news in the Italian daily Corriere della Serra: "Secret of Fatima, Sealed in the Cell of Sister Lucia." Messori reports that Sister Lucy's cell in the convent at Coimbra "has already been sealed" and that "whatever is enclosed there will be passed through the sieve of trusted theologians and monsignors sent, one supposes, by the same Cardinal Ratzinger who, as custodian of orthodoxy, must keep at bay visionary temptations which always reemerge."

Dodgy link (http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/latest/perspective453.asp)

I wouldn't mind have a browse through those journals before Mathhew Hopkins and Co get to work. That's the end of it though for sure......

johnq

02-25-2005, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by MarcUK
Actually Frank, a serious question - from an evangelicals point of view, what is so seriously wrong with the pope and his church that gets an evangelicals blood boiling?

Pretty much anyone but Catholics disagrees with the Pope being the supreme authority:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Rome

MarcUK

02-25-2005, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by johnq
Pretty much anyone but Catholics disagrees with the Pope being the supreme authority:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Rome

yeah I know, but I'm wondering what is so wrong with Catholicism through the eyes of evangelicals. Or are they just repeating like parrots something someone told them to think?

MarcUK

02-25-2005, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by segovius

Dodgy link (http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/latest/perspective453.asp)

Interesting, that will take some time to get through.

Oh and BTW, I ripped CC a new one while you were away:D

MarcUK

02-25-2005, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Anders
Chances are we are going to see a black pope the next time.

I vote Kofi Annan for pope, or was it US president?

Frank777

02-25-2005, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by segovius
Hold on - this smells like bad theology.......

If the Pope is God's appointee on earth and the 'work' was given him by God then surely the fact that he is lying terminally ill in hospital is an indication of the fact that that work is now over.

In short, as MarcUk so astutely points out, it is his time to go to account for his actions to the Grand Architect of the Universe and (presumably, in his view) receive his eternal reward.

Only he doesn't seem in such a hurry to leave this Vale of Tears and pick up the glittering prize.......why could that be I wonder ?

Please remember that I'm Evangelical, and don't presume to speak for Catholics here.

As you know, there's a segment of the Christian population that takes the Bible's end-time scenarios very, very seriously. Researching Biblical prophecy was a hobby of mine back when I was younger, after I read Hal Lindsay's Late Great Planet Earth and figured the guy was on to something.

No Prophecy watcher gets everything right. The Bible isn't meant to be a personal Crystal Ball. But the scriptures do say that tensions in the Middle East would be the driving force at the End of Days, which made the Book of Revelation seem silly to people like Luther and others, since Israel didn't even exist back then.

The Earth seems to be moving in a strange direction. The "Mark of the Beast" prophecies call for a cashless society and the suspension of many civil liberties. Not to mention a "Mark" implanted in the skin, which seems to be the VeriChip's destiny.

What does this have to do with the Pope?

If you contemplate the Revelation scenarios, you inevitably come to the point where the European Leader (Antichrist) is welcomed by the False Prophet, who is said to have major religious sway over Europe.

There's only one leader who fits that bill.

I would agree that the current Pope has been a good one. But there has been word on the Christian grapevine that he is terribly afraid of something about the next leader of the Catholic church. He has tried stacking the cardinal body that chooses the leader, and has tried to move the entire church into defending a "culture of life".

Naturally, this is interpreted by the media as simply moving the church to a conservative opposition to abortion, euthanasia and gay rights, but I don't think that's the whole case.

I personally think he's hanging on so tightly because he truly believes that something will go badly wrong with the next leader.

johnq

02-25-2005, 12:51 PM

It's all gripping stuff but it's also pure shite.

Pass the popcorn.

Frank777

02-25-2005, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by MarcUK
yeah I know, but I'm wondering what is so wrong with Catholicism through the eyes of evangelicals. Or are they just repeating like parrots something someone told them to think?

In Evangelical eyes, Catholics have mutated the church into something it's not supposed to be. Praying to Mary, the "Priest" system of governance (which is not mentioned in the New Testament), calling leaders "Father", insisting that any one man is infallible etc, etc.

And I shouldn't have to tell you, of all people, where the Confessional idea comes from.

johnq

02-25-2005, 12:59 PM

We're going to need to be cashless soon, once a contagion or even hint of a contagion gets onto the U.S. currency.

Look what they did with the anthrax situations. Forget mail, next step is to put "it" on money, or even the fear of it being on money, and overnight people will just stop using cash.

Of course "it" might need to be something stronger than anthrax.

I often thought it ironic that we have nukes and yet our "enemies" have all the oil we want. We can't exactly nuke the oilfields can we. Which lead me to think what if all the oil were irradiated intentionally (by whomever)? Man that would suck/be great (since it'd spur creation of alternatives overnight).

But that brings me to irradiated money. Could radioactive money quicken the creation of a purely cashless society?

I digress.

Frank777

02-25-2005, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by johnq
We're going to need to be cashless soon, once a contagion or even hint of a contagion gets onto the U.S. currency.

Look what they did with the anthrax situations. Forget mail, next step is to put "it" on money, or even the fear of it being on money, and overnight people will just stop using cash.

That's unbelievable. :wow:

Most of the speculation I've read (note: I'm referring to journals and non-fiction - NOT the Left Behind series!) has centred around the idea that some sort of terrorist/money laundering pretext would be used to justify the abolition of cash. I've never heard of the scenario you mentioned, but it would certainly seem like the best move for those with totalitarian intent.

johnq

02-25-2005, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Frank777
That's unbelievable. :wow:

Most of the speculation I've read (note: I'm referring to journals and non-fiction - NOT the Left Behind series!) has centred around the idea that some sort of terrorist/money laundering pretext would be used to justify the abolition of cash. I've never heard of the scenario you mentioned, but it would certainly seem like the best move for those with totalitarian intent.

Mind you, <checks this thread's location> Bush & Company/E.U./Vatican/U.N./Russia/China is as likely as Bin Laden/AQ to authorize it, imho. :D

tonton

02-25-2005, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Frank777
In Evangelical eyes, Catholics have mutated the church into something it's not supposed to be.

True, but in many people's eyes, evangelicals have mutated the Church into something it's not supposed to be, too.

Anti-homosexuality.
Anti-choice.
Anti-sex education.
Anti-separation of Church and State.

Anti-this and anti-that, American Evangelicanism has evolved into a body of judgment and condemnation, rather than one of love and compassion. They are by no means any better than the Catholics in terms of the damage they are doing to Christ's message.

Frank777

02-25-2005, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by tonton
Anti-this and anti-that, American Evangelicanism has evolved into a body of judgment and condemnation, rather than one of love and compassion.

Marc wanted to know the reason for the schism, so I elaborated.
I didn't intend to turn the thread into Northern Ireland.

However, to answer your points, I see nothing compassionate about leaving people on their own to make choices you believe will hurt them. (in reference to your first three points.) I know we disagree on many moral fronts, but Christians should be free to voice their opinions on behaviour like everyone else.

In reply to the fourth, most of what I've seen in the U.S. is Christians voting according to their beliefs and conscience, which hardly jeopardizes Church and State. Democracy's a numbers game, and pro-life voters will always outnumber the advocates of abortion, gay rights and euthnasia. For reasons that are just obvious.

Call me when Christians advocate seizing armed control of the government and blocking non-Christians from participating in democracy. We'll fight them side by side.

tonton

02-25-2005, 02:44 PM

Whoever the new pope is, I pray every day to whatever God I believe in that he will do two things:

1. End the bullshit about contraception and admit that condoms help control AIDS.

2. Initiate a "no tolerance" policy on paedophilia within the church.

Then we can concentrate on the other sins of the church like their blatant discrimination.

Res

02-25-2005, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by segovius
Hold on - this smells like bad theology.......

If the Pope is God's appointee on earth and the 'work' was given him by God then surely the fact that he is lying terminally ill in hospital is an indication of the fact that that work is now over.

In short, as MarcUk so astutely points out, it is his time to go to account for his actions to the Grand Architect of the Universe and (presumably, in his view) receive his eternal reward.

Only he doesn't seem in such a hurry to leave this Vale of Tears and pick up the glittering prize.......why could that be I wonder ?

Originally posted by MarcUK
As Segovius points out, it is clear that God is ready for the pope, but it seems the pope is not ready for God, because he is resorting to the human philosophy of sciences of the Medicine to drag out a few more weeks on this miserable planet as opposed to eternal paradise he is so promised.

Now, as it is you Frank, I will have to point out that this is because the Pope knows (as he has access to all the Christian scriptures, theologians and advisors one could ever desire) that his little fairytale is based on astrology and sunworship, and when it finally comes to put 'the money where the mouth is', he knows damn well, once its over - its over. Or atleast that he's in big trouble :D

There is absolutely nothing in the Catholic belief (or most Christian beliefs) that prohibits the use of medical technology to extend life. He didn't send the doctors away when he was shot, back in 81, nor has he refused medical treatment for any of his previous ills. It would be quite out of character to do so now. Most Christians believe that life is precious and that medicine is a gift from god that should be used. Saying that if a Catholic uses medicine he must doubt the existence of god is just silly.

MarcUK

02-25-2005, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Res
Saying that if a Catholic uses medicine he must doubt the existence of god is just silly.

Im not exactly saying that, but what I find silly, is that if you spend your whole life believing that life is a test before you reach judgement before God, then why would you be so desperate to cling on to a few weeks of life?

The pope knows what lies before him in death, and he's clearly demonstrating a desire to extend his earthly flesh for as long as possible, even though his Parkinson is so severe that futher operations are required to keep him alive. The Pope is barely a machine running on autopilot, but he seems to prefer this than what he knows awaits him.

Perhaps Segovius's 'dodgy' link marries with Franks worry that the next Pope will be totally bad. Perhaps the Pope knows that the sucessor will reveal the 3rd prophecy of Fatima, and the church will come crumbling down.

Perhaps the third revelation is that the orthodox story of Jesus is completely false and based on astrology - as the evidence forcefully suggests, and that the true work of Jesus will be revealed, thus revealing the knowledge to the world of how to defeat the anti-christ.

You would want the real nature of Jesus to be revealed wouldn't you? You wouldn't want a false story of Jesus to propogate the world, deceiving millions from the love of God by worshipping a false prophet. False prophets 'might' have the same name, and offer the same fuzzy feeling of Salvation, but if there is sufficient evidence to suggest that is fundamentally not true - and this has been supressed for thousands of years by the cunning of Satan, you would want the truth to be revealed? or would it be easier maintaining the beliefs installed by Satan?

Take a look around you, Christianity, the Bible, and its leaders are full of errors, contradictions, deceit and falsehoods - its history is arrogant, full of bravado and overflowing with fake compassion, when infact the opposite is true, and its main story is pillaged from the works of Pagan religions and sunworship. There exists a whole industry of clever sneaky theology to try to explain away these falsities, and people learn how to explain away the contradictions better than they understand the supposed message. Its followers are largely ignorant, scared to question, arrogant, full of conviction yet empty of works and brimming with hypocricy and self deceit. Whould God reveal 'this' salvation to us, and require thousands of works of man to suppliment it so we could understand it, or would Gods word stand up on it own for every man to understand - whether their IQ is 60 or 160. Something is very amiss.

Towel

02-26-2005, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Frank777
But the scriptures do say that tensions in the Middle East would be the driving force at the End of Days, which made the Book of Revelation seem silly to people like Luther and others, since Israel didn't even exist back then. Here's the thing that's always bothered me about that. Yeah, there's tension in the Middle East now. But when hasn't there been tension in the Middle East? Between the Roman conquest, the Persian-Byzantine wars, the Islamic conquest, the Crusades, the various Turkic/Mongol invasions, the Ottoman conquest, the European conquest, the various uprisings against the Europeans, leading up to the various Arab-Israeli conflicts, you could throw a dart at a calendar of the last 2000 years and have a pretty good shot at hitting an era with "tensions in the Middle East."

Which is all likely irrelevant, since Revelation was written by Jews in the 1st century AD, for Jews in the 1st century AD. Remember, they had just finally regained their sovereignty after a millenia or three of being ground between Egyptian, mesopotamian, Persian and Greek overlords. And just as soon, the Romans swooped in and took it away again - and more hashly than most. The "tensions" referred to were the severe Roman-Jew tensions that eventually boiled over in the revolt of the zealots and ended with the complete descruction of the Jewish state and the dispersal of the remaining Jews across Europe and the Near East. Even the Temple was torn down, for goodness' sake. The end of the 1st century AD was literally an armageddon for the Jews. "Christians" didn't have it much better, since right about the same time presecutions reached their peak under Nero.

So I find it vaguely amusing that folks think the current Arab-Israeli stuff must mean the end times are nigh. It makes a nice story that makes your hair curl and sends shivers up your spine, but it seems crazy to try to interpret Revelation without any of the context in which it was written.

Gene Clean

02-26-2005, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by Towel
...but it seems crazy to try to interpret Revelation without any of the context in which it was written.

...by men, for men.

tonton

02-26-2005, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by Frank777
However, to answer your points, I see nothing compassionate about leaving people on their own to make choices you believe will hurt them.

This is an absolutely ridiculous argument. First of all, there is not one single shred of evidence that says that homosexuality, seeing abortion as an option, or teaching teenagers how to use a condom correctly is harmful. In fact, most people, when you consider Christians and non-Christians all together, believe that repressing sexual identity, bringing a child into the world that cannot be cared for, or "trusting" teenagers and adults to be abstinant does far more harm than good, and there IS in fact ample scientific evidence that supports that fact.

To refuse to admit that the evangelicals' stance is based on the intention to impose their own individual values onto society as a whole is completely and utterly dishonest. And this perpetual dishonesty is definitely harmful to the church.

Powerdoc

02-26-2005, 03:43 AM

I a m a bit surprised by the answers I read here.

Do people seriously consider that believing in god and heaven, anhilate totally the fear of death ?

The fear of death is ankored deeply in our mind, and logical constructions like god and heaven only help us to face this terrific shift.

MarcUK

02-26-2005, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by Powerdoc
I a m a bit surprised by the answers I read here.

Do people seriously consider that believing in god and heaven, anhilate totally the fear of death ?

The fear of death is ankored deeply in our mind, and logical constructions like god and heaven only help us to face this terrific shift.

but you're thinking like an athiest, you might try to think like a believer for a bit.

segovius

02-26-2005, 05:14 AM

This is a poem by a real and wise Christian that should put the matter in perspective as regards attitudes to death:

I live, but not in myself,
and I have such hope
that I die because I do not die.

I no longer live within myself
and I cannot live without God,
for having neither him nor myself
what will life be?
It will be a thousand deaths,
longing for my true life
and dying because I do not die.

This life that I live
is no life at all,
and so I die continually
until I live with you;
hear me, my God:
I do not desire this life,
I am dying because I do not die.

When I am away from you
what life can I have
except to endure
the bitterest death known?
I pity myself,
for I go on and on living,
dying because I do not die.

A fish that leaves the water
has this relief:
the dying it endures
ends at last in death.
What death can equal my pitiable life?
For the longer I live, the more drawn out is my dying.

When I try to find relief
seeing you in the Sacrament,
I find this greater sorrow:
I cannot enjoy you wholly.
All things are affliction
since I do not see you as I desire,
and I die because I do not die.

And if I rejoice, Lord,
in the hope of seeing you,
yet seeing I can lose you
doubles my sorrow.
Living in such fear
and hoping as I hope,
I die because I do not die.

Lift me from this death,
my God, and give me life;
do not hold me bound
with these bonds so strong;
see how I long to see you;
my wretchedness is so complete
that I die because I do not die.

I will cry out for death
and mourn my living
while I am held here
for my sins.
O my God, when will it be
that I can truly say:
now I live because I do not die?

St John of the Cross

MarcUK

02-26-2005, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by segovius
This is a poem by a real and wise Christian that should put the matter in perspective as regards attitudes to death:

[snip]

that guy needs to get a shag. Seriously, if life is really that terrible...or is he just trying to pass some guilt and shame on to someone else?

segovius

02-26-2005, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by MarcUK
that guy needs to get a shag. Seriously, if life is really that terrible...or is he just trying to pass some guilt and shame on to someone else?

He was an ascetic. Shagging was out.

MarcUK

02-26-2005, 06:09 AM

was that written by St John o the cross, or is that referencing something else? whats an ascetic? era?

segovius

02-26-2005, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by MarcUK
was that written by St John o the cross, or is that referencing something else? whats an ascetic? era?

Yes, it was JotC. An ascetic is someone who rejects comforts and tries to focus on the spiritual realm while rejecting the 'world'. Like Jesus in fact.

This is the issue that the evangelicals like Frank above disagree with about the Pope and the Catholic Church (one of them anyway) - that the Church is essentially a temporal secular power-structure and the Pope its worldly ruler, legitimised in a 'Christian' context.

Ascetics, like John the Baptist and Jesus and the disciples, rejected this approach. That was what they were all about. Witness the over-turning of the tables in the Temple.

The early (and hence most genuine) Christians were not interested in power structures and it is dubious whether the concept of a 'Church' arose with them or with later Pauline thought. Certainly the evangelical house-groups and informal meetings are the closest to the original Christian ethos that we currently have - or the were in the 60's and thereabouts. Now they have become the money-changers.

MarcUK

02-26-2005, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by segovius

Ascetics, like John the Baptist and Jesus and the disciples, rejected this approach. That was what they were all about. Witness the over-turning of the tables in the Temple.

The early (and hence most genuine) Christians were not interested in power structures and it is dubious whether the concept of a 'Church' arose with them or with later Pauline thought. Certainly the evangelical house-groups and informal meetings are the closest to the original Christian ethos that we currently have - or the were in the 60's and thereabouts. Now they have become the money-changers.

Based on the sign of Libra, the scales, which the sun enters in late autumn after the harvest - remembering that the ancients based the signs of the zodiac around yearly events to help them plan their lives - as the actual stars of libra do not represent a pair of scales at all. -

IMO Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers represents the end of the harvest season when there is no more food to harvest and sell - (they didn't have cash registers!) hence symbolic overturning of a now useless item. re-write this as a moral lesson perhaps? witness Jesus cursing the fig tree- Pointless- unless you understand it as the symbolising the failing power of the sun to produce growth at the onset of autumn - leaves falling from the trees.

It is more than a bit of a coincidence that events of Jesus' life corresond in order to actual events on earth bought about by humans need to sustain and understand agriculture during the year cycle- for which the symbolism of the zodiac existed for early civilization. I have already covered John-the-baptist symbolising the onset of the rainy season - baptising the Earth.

which leads me back to the Pope. I am thoroghly convinced that those in the Vatican know fully well the paralles between astrotheology and the tales of Jesus. If this 3rd Fatima is what it claims to be - the downfall of the church and knowledge to defeat the antichrist - It would have to contain this information. For the highest authority in Christendom (some digress!) to reveal such knowledge would result in utter chaos and destruction of the church.

But it also defeats the antichrist - knowledge that basing life, 'foreign policy', and beliefs on false prophecy, which has resulted in near destruction of humanity - or could if taken too far by extremists - might be a pretty savage wake up call for humanity - but it would dispell firm convictions that we must convert or kill our fellow humans because they interpret it somewhat differently from us.

So maybe that is the antichrist - devout conviction that my little group is the one chosen by God and everyone else is deceived by satan - while all the while not acting on the message of Christ and risking anhillation by extremists taking interpretations a little too far.

Powerdoc

02-26-2005, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by MarcUK
but you're thinking like an athiest, you might try to think like a believer for a bit.

Impossible n'est pas francais, but there is some exception to this rule :p

tonton

02-27-2005, 10:14 AM

My own grandmother died a Christian Scientist because she refused to take medicine for a simple infection.

MacCrazy

02-27-2005, 10:26 AM

sunilraman

02-28-2005, 07:59 AM

whoa... deep stuff my mac friends...

okay, lets look at this in two ways:

1. you perceive that the pope is suffering, just some poor old guy that is sorting out what he belives while he faces death, he was born into the catholic system somehow, if i am not mistaken, so that's how he's ended up the pope.
-->in this case, yeah, well, anyone that has human form is not God, because if you were God you wouldn't want to be the pope... unless:

2. you perceive that the pope is not really suffering, shure, he looks like a mess, but what if he is really God and is really happy and just looks to us like he is a mess?
-->in this case, that would mean that, possibly everyone around you IS GOD and you just think everyone seems to be suffering but really they're all happy, we are all happy... well not, me, because:

3. 1. and 2. is just a bit of mindf**k to continue this discussion. i'm working on no. 3... :devil:

umm anyone here doing Course In Miracles? I've finished Lesson 134 of 365 and taking a break from it now, deep revelations and the like, experienced the deconvolution of space and time, etc. etc. for brief glimpses of eternity

whoa... i've said too much.. toodles :D

seriously though if you are a Mac user and doing or considering or reading Course In Miracles, PM me, or reply here....

PS: For those who don't know, Course In Miracles is generally considered New Age, although it heavily uses Christian terminology...

later peoples...

Scott

02-28-2005, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by MacCrazy
Oh come on, he's been feeble for years. Does anyone really believe that the Pope is doing God's work? If so, why has the pope given the same number of saint-hoods as all the other popes put together?

'cause God told him too?

segovius

02-28-2005, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Scott
'cause God told him too?

Exactly. I mean possibly. Or possibly exactly if you see what I mean.

And lot's of people believe he is doing God's work.

sunilraman

02-28-2005, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by segovius
Exactly. I mean possibly. Or possibly exactly if you see what I mean.

And lot's of people believe he is doing God's work.

i'm with you on the possibly exactly... you know, we've each got our paths of forgiveness... you just gotta do what you gotta do and not beat yourself up over it...

and right now, personally i gotta be honest and say, poor bastard, that pope... should be put out of his misery... although his passing would make many people sad, so i ain't got this figured out... hmmm :\

MacCrazy

02-28-2005, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by sunilraman
i'm with you on the possibly exactly... you know, we've each got our paths of forgiveness... you just gotta do what you gotta do and not beat yourself up over it...

and right now, personally i gotta be honest and say, poor bastard, that pope... should be put out of his misery... although his passing would make many people sad, so i ain't got this figured out... hmmm :\

if you're arguing for the utilitarian action, it would be for the pope to stay alive. The people who don't care if he's alive wont be affected either way. But the people who believe the pope is doing God's work would rather he lived.

sunilraman

02-28-2005, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by MacCrazy
if you're arguing for the utilitarian action, it would be for the pope to stay alive. The people who don't care if he's alive wont be affected either way. But the people who believe the pope is doing God's work would rather he lived.

that indeed seems 'utilitarian' ... that is, staying alive but suffering (as i see it) of this poor bastard, just one guy, maybe worth it because thousands, millions perhaps are happier with him alive :\ *ponders*

MacCrazy

02-28-2005, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by sunilraman
that indeed seems 'utilitarian' ... that is, staying alive but suffering (as i see it) of this poor bastard, just one guy, maybe worth it because thousands, millions perhaps are happier with him alive :\ *ponders*

Personally I'm with the don't care group.

segovius

02-28-2005, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by MacCrazy
But the people who believe the pope is doing God's work would rather he lived.

This is the logical fallacy that is the basis of this thread - the Papacy is an office and not related to any one man. The next guy will be just as adored regardless and held to be just as 'holy'.

MacCrazy

02-28-2005, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by segovius
This is the logical fallacy that is the basis of this thread - the Papacy is an office and not related to any one man. The next guy will be just as adored regardless and held to be just as 'holy'.

yes that is true but that does not mean the Catholics want a new Pope.

segovius

02-28-2005, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by MacCrazy
yes that is true but that does not mean the Catholics want a new Pope.

No, but it does mean that a Pope himself would be expected to be in more of a hurry to shuffle oiff the mortal coil when the big man calls time - especially seen as there's an equal and identical (theologically speaking) replacement waiting in the wings and double especially in order to cash in on the reward reserved for the 'holiest' of God's servants and head of the Churchian totem pole.

sunilraman

02-28-2005, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by segovius
No, but it does mean that a Pope himself would be expected to be in more of a hurry to shuffle oiff the mortal coil when the big man calls time - especially seen as there's an equal and identical (theologically speaking) replacement waiting in the wings and double especially in order to cash in on the reward reserved for the 'holiest' of God's servants and head of the Churchian totem pole.

hmm yeah.. i guess if i were God, i would let the poor bastard, that suffering aging Pope, shed his mortal coil and upgrade from Os Earth.0.01 to Heaven 1.0 .. but i would ask the pope to deliver one final message to all the catholics, saying something like "i have seen the light, it's time for me to go, but hey, this next guy here [the pope's successor], he's cool, god says it's his turn, and God wants all of us to be happy"...

sorted :D pope dies, doesn't suffer anymore, catholics around the world mourn a little but are generally happy that the Pope himself has said it's cool that he is dying, and that the Pope+God has endorsed the New Pope. New Pope is happy that he gets to weild some Catholic power and rule the vatican. And the rest of us that don't give a shit about this can go back to enjoying other news such as how well iPods are selling :D

there. everyone is happy....! ha ha !! i solved it how to make everybody happy!!!!! yeahhhh

segovius

02-28-2005, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by sunilraman
hmm yeah.. i guess if i were God, i would let the poor bastard, that suffering aging Pope, shed his mortal coil and upgrade from Os Earth.0.01 to Heaven 1.0 .. but i would ask the pope to deliver one final message to all the catholics, saying something like "i have seen the light, it's time for me to go, but hey, this next guy here [the pope's successor], he's cool, god says it's his turn, and God wants all of us to be happy".

Well, that's kind of like what happens with the Dalai Lama more or less - or used to when the Lamaship was real and not degraded by a CIA financed autocratic dictator/egomaniac intent on eradicating the last vestige of reality from the religion.

There's a lot of parallels with Popianity actually.