Spain... No Ally.

[NaplesX]

From the March 11th bombings there, It took till december for Spain to warn the FBI that there were plans to attack Grand Central Station in NYC!

Sounds very dubious to me.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=2&u=/nm/20050302/ts_nm/security_spain_usa_dc

Any thoughts?

[groverat]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Any thoughts?

Non-story. That's my thought.

[Harald]

Possiblities:

1) Spain didn't realise what they had for several months. In the end they were able to provide several agencies on foreign countries with this data, sharing information of the type that the FBI and the CIA and other US agencies were UNABLE to share with each other despite being in the SAME COUNTRY, prior to 9/11.

2) Spain sat on it because they wanted al Qaeda to bomb Grand Central Station.

Obviously the latter.

[Gene Clean]

Obviously.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by Harald
Possiblities:

1) Spain didn't realise what they had for several months. In the end they were able to provide several agencies on foreign countries with this data, sharing information of the type that the FBI and the CIA and other US agencies were UNABLE to share with each other despite being in the SAME COUNTRY, prior to 9/11.

2) Spain sat on it because they wanted al Qaeda to bomb Grand Central Station.

Obviously the latter.
Yes. That must be it. Having suffered a devastating terrorist attack, they did nothing in the hope that the same thing would happen to the Americans.

They are bastards, the Spanish.

Since they pulled their troops of Iraq.

[segovius]

Socialist French bastards, even.

[groverat]

I love it when simple-minded people imply ridiculous things because their idiotic worldview requires them to hide their true beliefs because their true beliefs are absolutely insane.

It makes me very happy.

[bergz]

To make a more educated assertion along the same lines:

Spain is a terrorist regime.

It is the only country in the EU that allows (albeit reluctantly) the political arm (HB) of an international terrorist organization (ETA) to present itself to local and statewide elections, and then govern.

The PNV is in unquestionable control of the Basque country, in a coalition with HB. The PNV, which has representation in the central government, makes the same arguments as ETA, has the same goals, and for some reason has never been targeted by ETA.

ERC has also had contacts with ETA and they jointly run Catalonia with the Socialists, who, as it happens, also run the central government.

The Basque Country is also the only place in the world where the "outlaw" terrorists attack the opposition parties as opposed to the parties that control the government, which stinks of state-sponsored terrorism (at least when we talk about Arzalluz's malevolent PNV, not the merely incompetent Maragall and Zapatero).

Oh, and they pulled out of Iraq and sent more troops to Afghanistan instead in order to mollify their local democratic electorate, the bastards.

--B

[Gilsch]

Pinko commie bastards!! They are no allies, let's nuke em'!! NOW!!

Nuke em'!!!

[segovius]

Originally posted by bergz
Spain is a terrorist regime.

Good reasoning - fatally flawed though.

ETA cannot be terrorists as you have to be Muslim to fit that category.

The WOT has never attempted to fit within its rubric such groups as ETA, IRA, Jewish Defence League, Shining Path etc for this very reason.

Clearly none of the above are to be regarded as terrorist groups as by definition the 'war' on such groups does not apply to them and allows them to continue their activities with impunity. Which they do.

Oth Spain is also manifestly racist and Islamophobic so maybe those good points nullify the bad....

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by bergz
To make a more educated assertion along the same lines:

Spain is a terrorist regime.

It is the only country in the EU that allows (albeit reluctantly) the political arm (HB) of an international terrorist organization (ETA) to present itself to local and statewide elections, and then govern.
--B
Au contraire, my friend: the British government allows Sinn Fein, the political arm of the IRA, to stand and govern!!!!!threefourfive!!!!!!one!!!!pissflaps!!!!

Ergo Britain is a terrorist regime.

Excellent analysis, by the way. The Spanish are BASTARDS, right?

[segovius]

Originally posted by Gilsch
Pinko commie bastards!! They are no allies, let's nuke em'!! NOW!!

Nuke em'!!!

I think we may have to - take a look at this. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3706414.stm)

:wow: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by segovius
The WOT has never attempted to fit within its rubric such groups as ETA, IRA, Jewish Defence League, Shining Path etc for this very reason.

This is an excellent, excellent point.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by bergz
Oh, and they pulled out of Iraq and sent more troops to Afghanistan instead in order to mollify their local democratic electorate, the bastards.

--B
Or they pulled their troops out of a repugnant mess and sent them to aid the reconstruction of Afghanistan instead of bombing the shit out of a country and then devoting essential materials to another, totally unrelated war before their work was done, like your administration did.

[bergz]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
like your administration did.

Now I'm responsible for that? Most offensive line yet in this thread! :mad:

I was under the impression that the British government first allowed Sinn Fein to do that groovy governing thing they do only AFTER receiving certain concessions to the tune of disarming, etc., and that it was also just one step in the institutionalization of extraoffical groups which always makes them more accountable to their goals, and less reliant upon their "extraofficial" means (I will make no reference to the PLO at this point). No concessions (not even verbal) have ever been juiced out of HB.

It's funny, though, when HB's spokesperson says things like "ETA will stop when they receive the same autonomy as our Irish brothers have received."

Of course, the Basque government is almost completely autonomous (its own finances, its own police, etc.) and its parliament can't constitutionally be shut down by Madrid as London often does to punish the Irish when they're not getting along, or when spies show up somewhere they shouldn't, etc.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by bergz
Now I'm responsible for that? Most offensive line yet in this thread! :mad:

I was under the impression that the British government first allowed Sinn Fein to do that groovy governing thing they do only AFTER receiving certain concessions to the tune of disarming, etc.,
No. They've been a Parliamentary party since 1917.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/ni/rise_sinn_fein.shtml

Bomb Britain!

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by segovius
[B]Good reasoning - fatally flawed though.

ETA cannot be terrorists as you have to be Muslim to fit that category.

The WOT has never attempted to fit within its rubric such groups as ETA, IRA, Jewish Defence League, Shining Path etc for this very reason.



The WOT is a war on some terrorists, while the ones who are on friendly terms with the Bush/Blair axis are accepted, including of course legions of Central and South American terrorists and thugs. Repeat something often enough, no matter now inaccurate or untruthful, and the people will eventually end up believing:

Stay on message: muslim=terrorist...repeat after me....

[NaplesX]

Ya know...

When I said "Thoughts?", I wasn't really trying to open the door to what you people are posting, even though it turned out that way. :wow: :lol:

You guys can guess and speculate all you want but the facts are out there:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050302/D88IRC480.html

"The sketch and data were on a computer disk seized about two weeks after the March 11 train bombings in Madrid that killed 191 people last year, the newspaper El Mundo said."

9 months?

Is the spanish justice/investigation system that slow?

Most people in AO know the state of technology today, and know that the contents of that laptop could be sent rather quickly. I would just like to hear something that makes sense as to why they would not pass that info on when the FBI and CIA were right there after the bombings.

Any care to reasonably speculate on that?

Or are we to just take Spain's word for it when most here don't even trust there OWN government?

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Ya know...

When I said "Thoughts?", I wasn't really trying to open the door to what you people are posting, even though it turned out that way. :wow: :lol:

Any care to reasonably speculate on that?

Or are we to just take Spain's word for it when most here don't even trust there OWN government?
Well, I'm convinced. Regime change can't come a moment too soon for me.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

OK, Naples, let's hear your thoughts and speculation. It's your thread, they're your links, let's hear what you think. You felt motivated to start a thread on the subject: tell us in a few sentences what your opinion is.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
OK, Naples, let's hear your thoughts and speculation. It's your thread, they're your links, let's hear what you think. You felt motivated to start a thread on the subject: tell us in a few sentences what your opinion is. To be honest, I am dumbfounded. I can't see any good reason not to cooperate with the FBI. None.

A lot of countries give the FBI things to look at. Our facilities are among the best in the world. And we were offering, so that right there makes a red flag go up for me.

Who knows.

I could go and make accusations about any number of things, but you guys have covered that, albeit through sarcasm. I am really interested to see what happens. I have a feeling it can't be good for Spain.

[Harald]

So when the CIA did not share information with the FBI, thus leading to 9/11, that was because (to quote your TITLE) they are 'no ally' of the US people?

[bergz]

Originally posted by NaplesX
When I said "Thoughts?", I wasn't really trying to open the door to what you people are posting

Sorry if informed discussions are less satisfying and polemic-provoking than the pong-like interchanges of uninformed opinions that normally fuel AO.

You guys can guess and speculate all you want but the facts are out there:

"An FBI official said the information was "interesting to us," but questioned what it meant. "It is without context," the official said. "Is it for certain Grand Central station? Who drew it? It appears at first to be suspicious, but it may not be. We all know that New York is a terrorist target."

it wasn't even clear to whom the drawing belonged.

"A piece of paper turned up in the raid last March 24," the police source told CNN. "You can't say for sure the drawing was of Grand Central station. Some think it might look somewhat like the entrance."

"The paper reported, toward the bottom of its story, that Spanish police weren't sure who had made the drawing or compiled the computer information."

"New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg told WBLS-FM radio that the city had known about the sketch "for a long time""

"We have no information to indicate that these drawings were part of an operational plan to attack Grand Central station"

"the sketch, which he described as "amateur renderings of the interior," did not appear to have been done from actual surveillance of the facility."

""I wouldn't say this is cause for alarm," New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly told reporters."

from http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/02/spain.ny/index.html

You're absolutely right. The facts are out there. But facts don't seem to be too popular in this reactionary political climate, do they?

--B

[bergz]

Originally posted by NaplesX
To be honest, I am dumbfounded. I can't see any good reason not to cooperate with the FBI. None.

A lot of countries give the FBI things to look at. Our facilities are among the best in the world. And we were offering, so that right there makes a red flag go up for me.

...

I am really interested to see what happens. I have a feeling it can't be good for Spain.

You obviously haven't read about the hoops that the post-911 Homeland Security Dept. has made law enforcement agencies in "allied" countries go through to get the most minimal information regarding their natl. security.

What is this last line you write? A threat?

I can't believe that I'm having to say this, nor that I care, but this country just had the worst terrorist attack in its history, these guys find a piece of paper and may or may not have warned the US Authorities that high-profile buildings in NY might be terrorist targets (yeah, no shit sherlock), and we should now threaten them? Maybe I'm unclear on what a good ally really is...

--B

[Gene Clean]

So, when does the bombing start? I wanna get some popcorns, but I don't want them to get cold without any action.

[FormerLurker]

I think that when we invade Spain, we should send all the Hispanic soldiers we can. Just think of it... a liberating force that already speaks the native language!! Spreading Freedom and Democracy will be sooo much easier!!
:devil:

[Scott]

It's gotta be Bush's fault.

[segovius]

Originally posted by FormerLurker
I think that when we invade Spain, we should send all the Hispanic soldiers we can. Just think of it... a liberating force that already speaks the native language!! Spreading Freedom and Democracy will be sooo much easier!!
:devil:

And any resistance movements, er I mean terrorists, there's some big dungeons and torture chambers underneath Barcelona left from the Castro era so these can be pressed into service like Saddam's prison at Abu Ghraib....

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by Scott
It's gotta be Bush's fault.
Read the thread before you post anything. Please promise that from now on you will READ A THREAD BEFORE YOU POST THINGS LIKE THIS and piss us all off. Please.

[pierr_alex]

Originally posted by segovius
...underneath Barcelona left from the Castro era...
You probably mean "the Franco era", ignorant ! ;-)

[bergz]

Originally posted by pierr_alex
You probably mean "the Franco era", ignorant ! ;-)
Although Castro was politically active when Franco was just starting his consolidation of power. See this letter (http://history1900s.about.com/library/photos/blycastro.htm) he wrote to President Roosevelt when he was 12. The comandante asks Mr. "Good Neighbor Policy with Batista" for a 10-spot!!!

Fer real!!

--B

[segovius]

Originally posted by pierr_alex
You probably mean "the Franco era", ignorant ! ;-)

Yes, I probably did - sheer ignorance ! :lol:

[addabox]

Originally posted by FormerLurker
I think that when we invade Spain, we should send all the Hispanic soldiers we can. Just think of it... a liberating force that already speaks the native language!! Spreading Freedom and Democracy will be sooo much easier!!
:devil:

Plus, "liberals" will get all confused and shrill cause they won't know if they should support the terrorists or the "minority" troops.

[addabox]

dp