Anti-South bias

[e1618978]

I have noticed quite a few posts with a serious
anti-south bias, like:

"homophobia is quite common in the south"

from the recent kill all gays thread from ati-man
(who, I am ashamed to say, shares my state). Homophobia
is also quite common in the north, and even in
California.

Please just keep in mind that racism and homophobia
are pretty much uniform across the US. The worst
anti-black racism I have seen was in Montreal.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by e1618978
I have noticed quite a few posts with a serious
anti-south bias, like:

"homophobia is quite common in the south"

from the recent kill all gays thread from ati-man
(who, I am ashamed to say, shares my state). Homophobia
is also quite common in the north, and even in
California.

Please just keep in mind that racism and homophobia
are pretty much uniform across the US. The worst
anti-black racism I have seen was in Montreal.

I admit to writing that statement. I am from the south. The fact remains that the statement is utterly true. It was a meaningless gesture for me to add in the south, I wasn't comparing it to anywhere else. Yeah, I thought about this before I wrote the statement.

Racism is much more overt in the south, it certainly is far more prevalent in the NE, however.

But whatever...

[BRussell]

I'd guess that anti-gay attitudes are stronger and more prevalent in the south. I don't have any data to back that up, but my guess is that traditionalist and conservative religious attitudes are associated with anti-gay attitudes, and traditionalist and conservative religious attitudes are stronger in the "old south" than other parts of the country.

Not that every southerner is anti-gay and every non-southerner is pro-gay, but I'd be willing to bet there's a real difference.

[groverat]

Originally posted by BRussell
I'd guess that anti-gay attitudes are stronger and more prevalent in the south. I don't have any data to back that up, but my guess is that traditionalist and conservative religious attitudes are associated with anti-gay attitudes, and traditionalist and conservative religious attitudes are stronger in the "old south" than other parts of the country.

Not that every southerner is anti-gay and every non-southerner is pro-gay, but I'd be willing to bet there's a real difference.

++

[dmz]

Well, if the University of Chicago is any measure, it looks like the damn yankees aren't buying the gay-as-a-biological-condition, so they MUST be massively homophobic too:

....it is patently false that homosexuality is a uniform attribute across individuals, that it is stable over time, and that it can be easily measured.

damn pointy-headed homophobes.....when will it end??!!

[johnq]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Racism is much more overt in the south, it certainly is far more prevalent in the NE, however.

How the hell do you "know" that? Been here?

Remember that racism is not "just" "white" vs. "black".

Do Asians and Hispanics have a much better life in the south than in the northeast? I doubt it.

Particularly nasty is the racism between African Americans/Asians/Hispanics upon eachother.

I've seen far more African American resentment/racism towards Asian Americans in the NE than I have seen "white vs. black".

There are myriad combinations of racism. Yet only "white vs. black" has truly been stigmatized and the other combinations are much more ignored.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by johnq
How the hell do you "know" that? Been here?

Remember that racism is not "just" "white" vs. "black".

Do Asians and Hispanics have a much better life in the south than in the northeast? I doubt it.

Particularly nasty is the racism between African Americans/Asians/Hispanics upon eachother.

I've seen far more African American resentment/racism towards Asian Americans in the NE than I have seen "white vs. black".

There are myriad combinations of racism. Yet only "white vs. black" has truly been stigmatized and the other combinations are much more ignored.

Whoa now. I do in fact live in Philadelphia -- at this point I have spent roughly 1/3 of my life in the NE and 2/3 in the south. Racial groups in the NE do not mix like they do in the SE. That creates a huge barrier to the type of understanding that undermines human instinct to hate what is different. You are right, Asians have it worse off in the south, Latino/Latinas do not.

It is all about perceptions here, and in the south since social classes (and hence to a very large degree what we view as races) live next door to each other, reducing the biases that come about from having the Urban Blacks/Hispanics, and the Suburban Whites...

[Mac on a Mac]

I agree hardeeharhar. In the south people of different races tend to live in the same communities more than they do up north.

[johnq]

Originally posted by Mac on a Mac
I agree hardeeharhar. In the south people of different races tend to live in the same communities more than they do up north.

The NE is where the immigrants have come in over the ages and they traditionally initially cluster amongst themselves for language/social reasons plus the fact that they each suffered racism from the previous immigrants before them. As time goes by interbreeding and assimilation and interpolation occurs and some neighborhoods flourish into more diverse places.

You act as if people forming communities of similar types of people is racist itself. It is a fundamental human, indeed animal, characteristic.

That the south is more diverse (to you) only speaks to different social/historical and economic conditions than are present in the NE. All the regions of the U.S. have their own stories and flavor and 'reasons" why the clumps of people are the ways they are.

But it need not be purely racism.

[Mac on a Mac]

I grew up 3 blocks from the American Nazi Party HQ in Chicago. It was a very racist place. Standing outside of an elementary school yelling "Niger go home" is a little more than "people forming communities of similar types". This is what I grew up in.

White people refused to live with black people. As soon as a black family moved into a neighborhood, the whites put their houses on the market. Property values fell through the basement and the neighborhood quickly became mostly black. With the low property values, many homes became rental properties or were abandoned. Some of the whites that moved out early in the cycle moved out in the middle of the night to avoid facing their white neighbors. This cycle went on and on and on. My parent’s generation fought this cycle by fighting integration any way they could.

If people could have just learned to live together, we would have developed economically health and integrated neighborhoods. It did not work this way though. The general consensus was "You can't live with nigers".

Sorry if this account is offensive, but it is true.

[tonton]

I think also that there's a huge difference in rural vs. urban areas in both the north and the south in regards to overt racism. Where Atlanta might be less racist than Boston, I think a town 100 miles out of Atlanta would be far more segregated and racist (blacks to white as well as whites to black) than any small town in the north.

[Northgate]

And I've heard just as many people use sweeping statements to describe the gay loving, liberal elitists as primarily from California and Massachussettes.

These same folks believe whole heartedly that if you are from New England you CANNOT run for president. Only SOUTHERN candidates are true Americans with true American values representative of "the people".

Gag.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by tonton
I think also that there's a huge difference in rural vs. urban areas in both the north and the south in regards to overt racism. Where Atlanta might be less racist than Boston, I think a town 100 miles out of Atlanta would be far more segregated and racist (blacks to white as well as whites to black) than any small town in the north.

Forsythe county is infamous - and because of its reputation probably attracts racists, but I doubt that the rest of Georgia is as bad as you think.

[trailmaster308]

Racism in South = yes
Homophobia in South = yes

Whats the point again of this thread?

[e1618978]

Originally posted by trailmaster308
Racism in South = yes
Homophobia in South = yes

Whats the point again of this thread?

Racism in the North = Racism in the South
Homophobia in the North = Homophobia in the South

I don't think that the South is any more racist or
homophobic than the North. Of course, I am a white
straight man, so my view may be askew.

Any African American or Gay people here that have lived
in both areas that can comment?

[giant]

Originally posted by e1618978
I don't think that the South is any more racist or
homophobic than the North.
I certainly saw far more racism during my time in the south (texas->east) than anywhere else in the country. As a white male, other white males made racist comments quite often around me. It also was relatively common where I lived for a few years outside of detroit, although to a lesser degree. I was always surprised by the white on white ethnic slurs I've overheard in new england, because here in chicago the dominant racism is blacks making racist comments about whites.

So, obviously it comes in all different flavors, but as someone who has lived in many parts of the country, I think it's quite a stretch to say that there is the same level of racism in the north as there is in the south.

One thing that some of my die-hard jewish friends don't like to hear is that as a white male I have had many, many other white males say racial slurs around me in normal conversation (particularly when I was in the south), but I don't think I've ever heard an anti-jewish slur from anyone that isn't from the middle east. :\

[Aquatic]

OK this may be slightly OT, but what the FUCK is this term "liberal elitist".

This is a contradiction in terms. Liberal means you are for the PEOPLE. That is the OPPOSITE of elite. It's as much of an oxymoron as..compassionate conservatism.

[Aquatic]

And the South I've seen, is more racist. Sorry it just is. I saw parts of VA, and TN. Cities seem to mix people, but at the same time, make them more aware of their differences, I guess. In small towns in NE it is less of a deal to be different, in any respect. Sure, some people call that "snowed" or "white-ified" but I disagree. Sure that happens, but sometimes it doesn't, and we don't make a big deal about it. New Englanders don't have time for that crap.

[hardeeharhar]

Yeah, new england. You don't have minorities in New England.

I have seen New England, and New England is WHITE.

You can't see racism if there is no one to be racist against.

That makes your comment about cities causing people to more easily see differences all the more meaningful as there are no differences between the races, not any real ones -- not any ones you don't see more broadly between social classes.

[tonton]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Yeah, new england. You don't have minorities in New England.

I have seen New England, and New England is WHITE.

You can't see racism if there is no one to be racist against.

That makes your comment about cities causing people to more easily see differences all the more meaningful as there are no differences between the races, not any real ones -- not any ones you don't see more broadly between social classes.

Yeah. No blacks live in Boston. Right.

[Ra]

I go to school here in California. I met a guy when I was a freshman who came from Alabama. He was also of Middle Eastern/Indian descent. The first month he didn't leave his room because "where [he's] from, all white people are racist," so he thought all of the white people here were, too. :grumble:

[e1618978]

Originally posted by tonton
Yeah. No blacks live in Boston. Right.

Boston is where the cops hauled in hundreds of random black people because a woman claimed to be raped by a black person, if I remember correctly (and all she saw was the persons hands). I don't think that Boston is your role model city.

Where I grew up (on an island in British Columbia) almost everyone white (except for one crazy black guy who thought that bar codes were the mark of the devil, and we would soon get them on our foreheads). I didn't notice much racism there 8-). The races were segregated by island, the next island over was where the Native Canadians lived.

[NaplesX]

Racism - The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Homophobia - Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

Behavior based on such a feeling.

Notice that these two things are not the same, even though you "progressives" keep trying to make them the same to further some agenda.

Racism means that YOU think YOU are better than another human because of YOUR race. Uttering words like "nigger" and "cracker" or "spick" does not necessarily make you a racist. These words are part of the American vernacular, sadly. If you think that is true then most blacks are racist against their own race because the word "nigger" is used non-stop in the inner city.

Homophobia means you fear or have contempt for OTHER gay PEOPLE.

Disapproving of the gay lifestyle and behavior does not make someone necessary homophobic.

I know you guys can see the glaring differences, so I am confused as to why you "progressives" insist on lumping them all together.

I know that certain people that adopt racism also adopt homophobia among other isms. But, to say the South is this and the North is that is entirely too sweeping, IMO.

In my life, I have lived in PA, NY, AZ, WV, and now FL. and have traveled to almost every state except the far NW and a few others, along with travel to Canada and multiple cities in Mexico. In all that time and land covered I have only met a handful of people that I consider truly Racist or homophobic.

Perhaps I am just not attracted to people like that or chose to ignore it, but even now, I have no friends or family that is either homophobic or racist, not even acquaintances.

I am thinking that the Libs, Black leaders, gay-rights activists and the media have blown these issue up and you people are hypersensitive.

Racism and homophobia can't survive in a capitalistic society. So both are dead or dying ideas.

[Harald]

When a black person says "Nigga" it is very different to a white person saying "Nigger."

How many black people do you know that you call "My nigger"?

[Harald]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Racism and homophobia can't survive in a capitalistic society. So both are dead or dying ideas.

The US capitalist system was built upon slavery.

Racism was a primary justification that enabled the British to dominate the world.

Another Naples classic.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by tonton
Yeah. No blacks live in Boston. Right.

Great! tonton, this is about as disingenous as some of the conservatives get on this site. Good Job, tonton!

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Harald
When a black person says "Nigga" it is very different to a white person saying "Nigger."

How many black people do you know that you call "My nigger"?
A couple.

"Nigga" is slang for "Nigger". It is just a word derived neger, black person, from French nègre, from Spanish negro which means black. But anyway, to say that a word has a different meaning because it comes out of a person with a different skin color is racist in and of itself. if you spend 1/10th of a second thinking about it.

We are talking about some serious double standards that some here have bought into lock, stock and barrel. When Chris Rock says the word "Cracker" or more precisely "Cracka", does that not mean the same as the word "Nigga" does?

Of coarse it does, but why am I or you or anyone not offended by that?

Simply because some lowlife white plantation owners called some black slaves "Nigger" back in the 1700 -1800's. That's why.

Forget the fact that it was blacks that sold blacks, and who fought in this country and died to help the plight of blacks in Amerca, don't bring that up!

Word games. Hmmph...

I never use the word unless this exact conversation comes up. I thought that people were sophisticated enough to get past this crap.

Guess not.

[groverat]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Of coarse it does, but why am I or you or anyone not offended by that?

Tens of millions of white Americans are very offended by it. So offended, in fact, they say mind-blowingly idiotic things like: "to say that a word has a different meaning because it comes out of a person with a different skin color is racist in and of itself."

Simply because some lowlife white plantation owners called some black slaves "Nigger" back in the 1700 -1800's. That's why.

Or because the federal government made it official policy to oppress blacks until the mid 20th century.
Or because race-motivated violent crimes were not treated properly until the 1990s and even then under severe white outrage.
Or because whites have influenced the decimation of social welfare that gave poor blacks opportunities.
Or because white America harps incessantly on every negative feature of black culture.
I could go on for days.

Forget the fact that it was blacks that sold blacks, and who fought in this country and died to help the plight of blacks in Amerca, don't bring that up!

Building straw men makes for easy battles!

I never use the word unless this exact conversation comes up.

Wait, but you said you call "a couple" of black people "my nigger". Which one of those is the lie?

Remember, lie-teller, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by groverat
Tens of millions of white Americans are very offended by it. So offended, in fact, they say mind-blowingly idiotic things like: "to say that a word has a different meaning because it comes out of a person with a different skin color is racist in and of itself."



Or because the federal government made it official policy to oppress blacks until the mid 20th century.
Or because race-motivated violent crimes were not treated properly until the 1990s and even then under severe white outrage.
Or because whites have influenced the decimation of social welfare that gave poor blacks opportunities.
Or because white America harps incessantly on every negative feature of black culture.
I could go on for days.



Building straw men makes for easy battles!



Wait, but you said you call "a couple" of black people "my nigger". Which one of those is the lie?

Remember, lie-teller, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. So you are stooping to calling me a liar now?

Nice.

I should have been more precise because no-one here can joke, oh no don't do that! You might poke an eye out or something...

I actually have friends that I grew up with from infancy, that I could talk to like that if I chose to. But hey, go ahead call names and marginalize if you must.

And all of those things that you state, I, a white male, had nothing to do with nor did any of my family going back to colonial days. So please don't include me in your sweeping generalizations, it is actually pretty offensive.

You would be be more accurate if you said, "Some whites" because history is full of all different colors of people oppressing all sorts of other colors of people AND even same color people oppressing themselves.

In conclusion, it's really not ALL whity's fault.

[e1618978]

Or because white America harps incessantly on every negative feature of black culture.

Now, there are lots of things about poor black culture that I find very distastful (obscene or sexist rap music, car modifications including chrome wheels and neon lights, too much jewelry, underwear showing, etc).

I don't think that is racism, per se, just personal preference.

[groverat]

Originally posted by NaplesX
So you are stooping to calling me a liar now?

If you make two conflicting statements in one post, yes.

I should have been more precise because no-one here can joke, oh no don't do that! You might poke an eye out or something...

I actually have friends that I grew up with from infancy, that I could talk to like that if I chose to. But hey, go ahead call names and marginalize if you must.

Never v. sometimes. Don't blame me for your wanting to be on all sides at all times. That's your own tangled web.

You would be be more accurate if you said, "Some whites" because history is full of all different colors of people oppressing all sorts of other colors of people AND even same color people oppressing themselves.

The vast majority of whites in the 18th and 19th centuries.
The smaller majority of whites in the 20th century.
Most whites.

Interracial marriage was only made legal nationwide in 1967. And the court had to do that.

Do you really want to pretend that our culture is not absolutely steeped in anti-black racism?

In conclusion, it's really not ALL whity's fault.

Your use of "whity's (sic)" exemplifies exactly what I'm talking about, you are mocking blacks. That's your entire purpose, the downplay the oppression of blacks in American history and further mock them.

You are reducing blacks as a whole to a caricature all the while pulling that lame, tired "I have black friends" card right-wing bigots always pull.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by e1618978
Now, there are lots of things about poor black culture that I find very distastful (obscene or sexist rap music, car modifications including chrome wheels and neon lights, too much jewelry, underwear showing, etc).

I don't think that is racism, per se, just personal preference. Yeah but just stating that makes you racist don't you know...

:wow: :lol:

Don't be a hater... er hata... er hate - a... you know what I mean.

:D

[thuh Freak]

for my own self, i tend to think of the south as more racist and homophobic than the north and rest of the country. i don't know for certain that it is or isn't true. but the impression i get from my own experiences and the media encourage this idea. for my own part, living in nyc, i have seen, met and dealt with many minorities. for my own self, i don't harbor any particular hatred or distaste towards them {well, to be honest, it bugs me a bit to be around the flamoyantly-gay types}. some of the people i know are quite angry/hateful, but most people aren't. some (self included) people will make insensitive jokes, but always in jest. it seems to me that southerners are more likely, and possibly in greater quantities, to have actual anger/hatred toward minorities. well, southerners and old people. old people more so.

[e1618978]

i tend to think of the south as more racist and homophobic than the north and rest of the country. i don't know for certain that it is or isn't true. but the impression i get from my own experiences and the media encourage this idea.

I thought this as well, before I moved here - I was kind of afraid to move here, with all of the negative media image. I was expecting a lot of things that never materialised.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by groverat
If you make two conflicting statements in one post, yes.



Never v. sometimes. Don't blame me for your wanting to be on all sides at all times. That's your own tangled web.



The vast majority of whites in the 18th and 19th centuries.
The smaller majority of whites in the 20th century.
Most whites.

Interracial marriage was only made legal nationwide in 1967. And the court had to do that.

Do you really want to pretend that our culture is not absolutely steeped in anti-black racism?



Your use of "whity's (sic)" exemplifies exactly what I'm talking about, you are mocking blacks. That's your entire purpose, the downplay the oppression of blacks in American history and further mock them.

You are reducing blacks as a whole to a caricature all the while pulling that lame, tired "I have black friends" card right-wing bigots always pull. So now I am a liar and a right-wing bigot?

Just a suggestion but... perhaps you should moderate yourself a bit more because you seem to toeing that line that you are supposed to keep others from crossing.

But hey, it's just a suggestion.

I explained my statement in question in a reasonable manner, I think that unless your purpose is to start an personal argument with me you should except my explanation.

I don't care if you believe me about who my friends are, because I know where I grew up and who they are. I have nothing to prove to you. You can either choose to take me at my word or not. Your choice is clear and is very insulting when you make such judgments.

The very instances that you quote also point out the very nature of the democracy that you live in that corrects its wrongs and strives to make life better for as many people as possible. If America was so racist why does it allow mixed marriages now? Black voting? Blacks are a pivotal group in today's politics. Get real and get over it. Black home ownership has sky rocketed even though the cost of housing has done the same.

Opportunity abounds here for everyone.

[Protostar]

I do feel that there is "some" anti-south bias but it is understandable since we did try to secede from the US. Also I have been called white but this was b/c of my knowledge and interest in PCs,Linux,etc. and rock music (because obviously only whites can know anything about computers and like rock and a "real" black guy wouldnt know anything about such subjects or want to so I must be acting white). And as far as ati-man's views on wiping out gays, I think everyone would be suprised to know that almost every male (and some females) I have talked at my high school about the matter share the same views.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Yeah but just stating that makes you racist don't you know...

:wow: :lol:

Don't be a hater... er hata... er hate - a... you know what I mean.

:D

But to my credit, I dislike that stuff regardless of the race of the person associated with it. Maybe it is classism, rather than racism.

[e1618978]

And as far as ati-man's views on wiping out gays, I think everyone would be suprised to know that almost every male (and some females) I have talked at my high school about the matter share the same views.

Now that is frightning! All of a sudden I feel much less optimistic than usual about the future.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by e1618978
But to my credit, I dislike that stuff regardless of the race of the person associated with it. Maybe it is classism, rather than racism.

Yeah, I was about to say that it is classism... but I thought perhaps you were getting at that when you added "poor".

[e1618978]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Yeah, I was about to say that it is classism... but I thought perhaps you were getting at that when you added "poor".

On the one hand, a lot of the stuff I hate is associated with poor people (thrift stores, food lion, k-mart, and trailer parks come to mind) - but how can you tell the difference between classism and hating ugly stuff?

If poor people lived in beautiful (but small) adobe buildings, I don't think that I would hate the houses - just as I like some of the cool looking (but run down) houses in poor neighborhoods near me. Food Lion has some nicer stores now, and I shop in them, and I shop at Wal-Mart.

But I will try to be less judgemental the next time I see a Dodge Neon with a huge bolted on spoiler.

[Anders]

Hell. I have nothing against you semi-mexicans

[giant]

Originally posted by NaplesX
[B]"Nigga" is slang for "Nigger". It is just a word derived neger, black person, from French nègre, from Spanish negro which means black.
Really? Thanks for letting us know. Just a piece of advice: you know these little info sessions you are so fond of? That's the stuff that people learn when they go to middle school. It's kind of on the same level as pointing out that germany is in europe.
When Chris Rock says the word "Cracker" or more precisely "Cracka", does that not mean the same as the word "Nigga" does?
Uh, no. They are different words with different meanings. That's basically how language works.

I think what you meant to say was "Isn't cracka just as offensive as nigger?" Obviously not. It's not a loaded term backed by centuries of oppression and marginalization that continues to this day. We whites are still very much in charge of just about every aspect of life in this country, so it's really a hollow term. That's exactly why none of the racial slurs against whites have ever made a dent on american culture.

Anyway, white people love black comedians when they make jokes about white folks for a lot of the same reasons why roman comedies had slaves making fun of, outfoxing or otherwise subverting their masters. And that's yet another example of how far we still have yet to go.

[trick fall]

Unfortunately you can find racism, prejudice and homophobia where ever you find humans, but that has nothing to do with why I'm biased against the south.

[groverat]

The very instances that you quote also point out the very nature of the democracy that you live in that corrects its wrongs and strives to make life better for as many people as possible.

You're right, and wrongs are only corrected once they are acknowledged. Right now you refuse to acknowledge that anti-black racism is still pervasive in society, just like racists in the 1967 claimed that there was no racism in not allowing whites and blacks to marry.

If America was so racist why does it allow mixed marriages now? Black voting?

So, in your opinion, Americans were racist the day before the 1967 court decision and then not racist the day after? To use a single law, or even an entire set of laws, as a barometer for whether or not a society is racist is foolish to say the least.

Get real and get over it.

This is the crux of modern racist argument; blacks should shut up. They should quit complaining about what is happening to them.

Here's a fact: Racism lives on today and victims of racism should not be quiet about it.
Racism will always be around and victims of racism should never be quiet about it.

You have no basis from which to tell people from a historically oppressed group to "get real and get over it." None at all.

[johnq]

Originally posted by groverat
You have no basis from which to tell people from a historically oppressed group to "get real and get over it." None at all.

Every group has been "historically oppressed". What's the statute of limitations?

Can I sue Hadrian yet?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by groverat
You're right, and wrongs are only corrected once they are acknowledged. Right now you refuse to acknowledge that anti-black racism is still pervasive in society, just like racists in the 1967 claimed that there was no racism in not allowing whites and blacks to marry.



So, in your opinion, Americans were racist the day before the 1967 court decision and then not racist the day after? To use a single law, or even an entire set of laws, as a barometer for whether or not a society is racist is foolish to say the least.



This is the crux of modern racist argument; blacks should shut up. They should quit complaining about what is happening to them.

Here's a fact: Racism lives on today and victims of racism should not be quiet about it.
Racism will always be around and victims of racism should never be quiet about it.

You have no basis from which to tell people from a historically oppressed group to "get real and get over it." None at all. I don't want anyone to shut up. I want them to stop broad-brushing. I and most people that i know don't oppress Blacks or gays or anyone else for that matter.

I refuse to be grouped with the very small percentage of lowlifes that embrace ignorance like racism and homophobia. Sorry if i cannot conform to your outlook.

Racism exists, but it rarely manifests in my presence. I won't stand for it and I know a lot of people that feel the same way.

Perhaps you might want to find some buddies that have more testicular fortitude.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by trick fall
Unfortunately you can find racism, prejudice and homophobia where ever you find humans, but that has nothing to do with why I'm biased against the south.

And the reason is...

Don't like it too hot?
Allergic to ocra?
You are a muslum, and offended by pork BBQ?
Hurricanes tore your house down as a child?
Pine pollen?

I'll admit, the pine pollen makes me want to leave.

Why are you biased against the south, mr. NYC?

[trick fall]

Well with the exception of Georgia I can't stand the accent. I have a general disdain for right to work states, the religious right, conservative politicians and southern rock. Also I have to walk through Times Square to get to and from work and the most irritating tourists always seem to have a drawl. I'd also like to add that I do not consider Texas to be a part of the south.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by trick fall
Well with the exception of Georgia I can't stand the accent. I have a general disdain for right to work states, the religious right, conservative politicians and southern rock. Also I have to walk through Times Square to get to and from work and the most irritating tourists always seem to have a drawl. I'd also like to add that I do not consider Texas to be a part of the south.

I am pretty anti-union, so I agree with the right to work laws. Union states have much higher unemployment:

http://www.nilrr.org/growth.htm

Unions also just protect the "old boy network" - you can't get a job unless you know someone, but then the wages are above market value. When you go to trade shows, moving the boxes from the hotel lobby to your room costs hundreds of dollars because of the crappy unions (and you aren't allowed to move the boxes yourself). I'll admit that unions have a place - they forced the country to adopt safe worker laws, but if things were really bad then unions would also form in right to work states.

I still hate country music, the religious right, some conservative politicians (specifically the gay bashers) and southern rock, but the twang no longer bothers me - I submit to you that the "most irratating tourists" have a twang because the twang is what makes them irratating.

When I go to New York City or Las Vegas, the whole feel of the town fatigues me after a few days and I start to hate the place - but I am sure that I would get used to it after a while, just as you would get used to the south.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by trick fall
Well with the exception of Georgia I can't stand the accent. I have a general disdain for right to work states, the religious right, conservative politicians and southern rock. Also I have to walk through Times Square to get to and from work and the most irritating tourists always seem to have a drawl. I'd also like to add that I do not consider Texas to be a part of the south.

I am surprised that you would fault someone or a group of people because of an accent. As for unions I think they are ok but not really needed. It is just another form of protectionism. The reality is that we *all* live in a competitive world economy and nobody is "above" the reality of real competition for every job. I grew up in Texas (Dallas / Fort Worth) which is at least 50% made up of people from all across the country and 50% native D/FW'ians. Like most metro urban cities it is progressive, mixed race, and more liberal than many or most small towns.

I think the real issue here is personality and social mindset. Some people embrace diversity and their fellow neighbor regardless of race, religious nature or secular nature, sexual orientation or political philosophy and others are more exclusive or "supremist", need their space and are less social in general. I would suggest that more of the later group are found in small towns and if they must mingle with others in the community they prefer to be in the company of those who agree with them on just about every political stance.

The real question is are people "small" minded or "open" minded on a scale of 1 -10.

The funny thing is that we like to think that narrow minded "small" minded people are only found in places like the "South" or small towns but I would argue this is a false perception. In fact I would argue that within many urban and suburban wealthy zipcodes you will find many who still live their life within the context of exclusivity and supremacy. They try to make themselves "apart" from others even if they do live within a large population metro area. They try to "separate" from their community. They could for example live in a gated community. They could have an electric rod iron automatic electric gate at their driveway. All to suggest that "they are better" They may never step foot for example in a store or restaurant which "common people" might frequent. I call this the "snooty" factor.

Think about these words/phrases:

Snooty
Snobbish
Exclusive
Selfish
Arrogance
Inflated self-importance
Pride

If you think about it these qualities are similar to those which embolden blatent racists, homophobes or political haters of the opposite party or political view.

These attitudes are not "exclusive" (pardon the pun) to small towns or the "South".

These attitudes are in every wealthy large metro urban center around the world as well.

What can or what should we do to change this for the better?

I would suggest people:

Love their neighbor
Be a peacemaker
Fellowship with people of diversity from all backgrounds.
Live and let live
Forgive
Be humble
Give
Have mercy and grant grace
Gain the understanding that we are all unique and different and that this diversity is beautiful.
Remember that you do not have to agree with everything or everyone but you can respect the person and difference of outlook or perspective regardless.

This would add value, meaning, purpose and joy to the world both for ourselves and others if we practiced these things.

Just my 2 cents ;)

Fellowship

[tonton]

Great post, Fellows.

[Mac on a Mac]

As I said earlier in this thread, I grew up in a large, northern city and it was downright mean racist. The South has slavery in its history which will always haunt it, but I think we live together much better down here than yankees tend to think.

[giant]

Well, I grew up in chicago and live there now and it is very, very different from what I've seen during my time in the southeastern US. I've lived in a traveled to most parts of the country and there were only two regions where white males used the word "nigger" often and without hesitation: the southeastern US and some areas of the detroit suburbs. I've spent over 20 years total in Chicago and have never had anyone use the word "nigger" around me here.

[Mac on a Mac]

Where in Chicago Giant? I grew up near Marquette Park. Remember the park with the Nazis marching in it in "The Blues Brothers"? That's the place and no they did not make that scenario up for the movie. It happened every summer in front of my house. Next there would be a black counter demonstration through the park with Nazis and skinheads chanting all along the route. That's the Chicago I grew up in. Perhaps you live in a more enlightened part of the city.


http://store1.yimg.com/I/ihf_1826_6043296

[giant]

Rogers Park/Evanston primarily, but my family is all south side irish catholic. My mother grew up just south east of marquette park @ ~79th and ashland.

Chicago's south side is unique (we all know about marquette park and the MLK march, racial violence in the areas surrounding the park, redlining earlier in the century, etc) and, as you can tell from my background, my family has been in the center of it. However, my understanding is that racial tensions have cooled considerably there, so much so that my irish catholic relatives and friends that live there now are unaffected by it, take the kids to black reggae festivals, etc. There have also been strong and, as I understand, relatively successful efforts to ease racial tension in places like Beverly.

And I'm not trying to say there are no racial tensions whatsoever. I don't think I've ever seen anywhere that doesn't have racial tension of some sort. The fact is that I can't even imagine my white, south side relatives and friends coming close to saying "nigger," but I heard it all the time in the southern states.

[Mac on a Mac]

Fair enough Giant. You are there and I am here. I guess those childhood memories will always affect me. I remember the Nazis coming to our door with their literature and assuring us that they would "keep the niggers out of the neighboorhood". I remember black kids being bussed into Bogan High School on 79th street and all of my neighbors out yelling and throwing stuff at the busses. Long time ago...better to let it go.

[e1618978]

And I'm not trying to say there are no racial tensions whatsoever. I don't think I've ever seen anywhere that doesn't have racial tension of some sort. The fact is that I can't even imagine my white, south side relatives and friends coming close to saying "nigger," but I heard it all the time in the southern states. [/B]

I heard it quite often in Vanier (a suberb of Ottawa), and
almost never in North Carolina.

[giant]

I will note, however, that post-riot Detroit is one northern metro area where racism and segregated communities are by far the norm to this day, so it's certainly not limited to the south.

[tonton]

Maybe it's time rather than place in the above examples. Even in Southern California, one of my 2nd grade classmates whose dad was a WWII buff frequently called the Vietnamese immigrants "Japs".

But another anecdote...

On my first day to kindergarten, my mom told me to make friends as she sent me to class, and immediately upon enterng the classroom, I picked the first little boy I saw and said "will you be my friend"?

I didn't know he was different than me. He was just a little boy.

He was my best friend for two or three years and I used to play at his house regularly.

But then he learned that he was different abd by fourth grade, he decided he'd only play with other black boys. No biggie, because I already had a bunch of other (white) friends by that time.

And then there was the social segregation between the Mexicans and the other kids. Very extreme when I was in school. However, when my sister went to the same school four years earlier, some of her best friends were Mexican. I guess it's just random changes to the racial environment in time.

By the time we little kids matured and went to high school, I had become completely integrated and anti-racist, even though my junior high was basically all white.

Then, in college I lived in a dorm room with six black guys and one other white guys. We got along fine. I remember during the Rodney King riots, one of my roommates whose family lived in South Central saying "Hey, let's go lootin'!" I didn't think it was funny.

[trick fall]

I am surprised that you would fault someone or a group of people because of an accent. As for unions I think they are ok but not really needed. It is just another form of protectionism. The reality is that we *all* live in a competitive world economy and nobody is "above" the reality of real competition for every job. I grew up in Texas (Dallas / Fort Worth) which is at least 50% made up of people from all across the country and 50% native D/FW'ians. Like most metro urban cities it is progressive, mixed race, and more liberal than many or most small towns.


Was being a bit facetious about the accent. I think a careful look at American history shows that unions have been not only needed, but also beneficial for a majority of Americans, but hey that's just my opinion. BTW, the whole we all live in a competitive world is an absolute crock. Number one we have inherited wealth and number two social connections. If you think the job market and economic success is a level playing field for all Americans you are in my opinion naive.



I'd agree.

[QUOTE] They try to "separate" from their community

Personally I think this is more of a suburban thing. I live in NYC and in a way you really can't do this, unless I guess if you are extremely wealthy. I mean the richest people I know still ride the subway cause its the quickest way to get around town during the day. I also spend a considerable amount of time in rural upstate New York and am often astounded by the sense of community up there, as a matter of fact the only place I've lived where I did not feel a part of a community was growing up in the suburbs in Long Island. On another note I know that at least through the 80's Long Island, New York was the most segregated place in America.

[e1618978]

I looked up hate crime statistics:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hatecm.htm

And sorted them by state (via hate crimes per 100,000 people). Of course this assumes uniform reporting.

State Population Crimes c/100K

New Hampshire 80401 24 29.85
Minnesota 2222490 285 12.82
Georgia 404337 49 12.12
Idaho 1154533 114 9.87
New Jersey 7948721 768 9.66
Montana 146201 11 7.52
Massachusetts 4563851 333 7.3
Maryland 5041200 353 7
Delaware 716612 45 6.28
Maine 1234660 75 6.07
Utah 1908800 107 5.61
California 31575724 1751 5.55
Michigan 7471391 405 5.42
Arizona 4095027 220 5.37
Illinois 2749811 146 5.31
Washington 5292420 266 5.03
Oregon 3129911 152 4.86
New York 17607895 845 4.8
Rhode Island 990000 46 4.65
Nevada 1528846 68 4.45
Wyoming 457505 19 4.15
Oklahoma 924403 37 4
Colorado 3740318 149 3.98
Missouri 3440651 135 3.92
Ohio 7531175 267 3.55
Connecticut 2686092 87 3.24
Vermont 309236 10 3.23
Alaska 253500 8 3.16
Pennsylvania 11842573 282 2.38
North Carolina 2319608 52 2.24
Kentucky 3839698 81 2.11
New Mexico 1213889 24 1.98
Tennessee 1401961 25 1.78
Texas 18659819 326 1.75
South Dakota 301872 5 1.66
Virginia 3330876 51 1.53
Florida 14214968 164 1.15
Indiana 3234261 35 1.08
Iowa 2832372 29 1.02
Mississippi 619465 6 0.97
Wisconsin 5120215 45 0.88
District of Columbia
554000 4 0.72
South Carolina 3666417 26 0.71
North Dakota 495888 3 0.6
Arkansas 2476091 7 0.28
Louisiana 2681595 7 0.26

New Hampshire has 100 times the hate crimes per capita of Louisiana...

[finboy]

Originally posted by tonton
I think also that there's a huge difference in rural vs. urban areas in both the north and the south in regards to overt racism. Where Atlanta might be less racist than Boston, I think a town 100 miles out of Atlanta would be far more segregated and racist (blacks to white as well as whites to black) than any small town in the north.

Having lived all over the country, I can say that most of you guys are a little myopic about racist stereotypes and prejudice.

As for the south being a target of bias, I'd say "damned straight." Imagine someone saying the same things about Jews or African-Americans that are said about white Southerners. Now, yesterday, tomorrow.

[Anders]

What is the definition of a hate crime?

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Anders
What is the definition of a hate crime?

They dont explicitly define it on the web page, but it looks like it is any crime with race/religion/sex/sexual preference as a motive. Only one hate-crime in the table against athiests, thank god. 8-)

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by e1618978
They dont explicitly define it on the web page, but it looks like it is any crime with race/religion/sex/sexual preference as a motive. Only one hate-crime in the table against athiests, thank god. 8-)

Doesn't this A) Require the person who was the victim of the hate crime to report it, 2) Require someone to care enough to push prosecution in that direction, Gamma) Have a local culture that isn't numbed by these crimes.

Alabama, for instance, isn't even on that list, and everyone who has been raised in the South and has lived there for any extended period of time knows that hate crimes and veritible state sanction racism has its breeding ground there.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Doesn't this A) Require the person who was the victim of the hate crime to report it, 2) Require someone to care enough to push prosecution in that direction, Gamma) Have a local culture that isn't numbed by these crimes.

Alabama, for instance, isn't even on that list, and everyone who has been raised in the South and has lived there for any extended period of time knows that hate crimes and veritible state sanction racism has its breeding ground there.

Are you sure that you have an unbiased opinion of Alabama? I have never been there, but before I came to NC I thought that there were still lynchings here.

I think that Alabama was accidentally left off the list - there is a blank line where it is supposed to be. Here is the information:

State Profile
In Alabama , there were a total of 1 bias-motivated criminal incidents reported for 2003. Of the incidents, 1 (100%) were racial bias motivated; 0 were religious bias motivated; sexual orientation bias accounted for 0; ethnicity/national origin bias was the cause of 0; disability bias was connected with 0; and the remaining 0 incidents were the result of multiple biases.

During 2003, a total of 36 agencies in Alabama reported hate crimes.

http://www.partnersagainsthate.org/hate_response_database/detail.cfm?id=214

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by e1618978
Are you sure that you have an unbiased opinion of Alabama? I have never been there, but before I came to NC I thought that there were still lynchings here.

I think that Alabama was accidentally left off the list - there is a blank line where it is supposed to be. Here is the information:

State Profile
In Alabama , there were a total of 1 bias-motivated criminal incidents reported for 2003. Of the incidents, 1 (100%) were racial bias motivated; 0 were religious bias motivated; sexual orientation bias accounted for 0; ethnicity/national origin bias was the cause of 0; disability bias was connected with 0; and the remaining 0 incidents were the result of multiple biases.

During 2003, a total of 36 agencies in Alabama reported hate crimes.

http://www.partnersagainsthate.org/hate_response_database/detail.cfm?id=214

Yeah.... One. I believe that.

:rolleyes:

These stats are clearly flawed.

And my opinion on Alabama is formulated on fact. Again, I am from the south.

[Junkyard Dawg]

Originally posted by e1618978
I have noticed quite a few posts with a serious
anti-south bias, like:

"homophobia is quite common in the south"

Please just keep in mind that racism and homophobia
are pretty much uniform across the US. The worst
anti-black racism I have seen was in Montreal.

You are quite right, racism and bigotry are prevalent everywhere. But they are worse on in some places, and there tend to be more bigots in the South, where education is poorer, the people are poorer, and the ugly history of slavery still haunts them. I think the mistake some people make is to label the South as the "home" of bigotry and assume that it's not a problem in the North or on the Coasts.

Still, one does wonder about the South. I've visited there a few times, and when I have I've witnessed mullet-bearing buffoons proudly wearing openly gay-hating t-shirts of the sort one would NEVER see anywhere in my home state of Michigan. I can only imagine how threatened a gay person must feel having to walk amongst such brutish displays of hate and fear. Rush Limbaugh boasts a greater number of listeners in the South and he, along with other hate-radio jocks, spew out countless nuggets of hateful inanity. And of course the South is home to country music! (j/k)

So I don't believe it's entirely fair to say "racism is everywhere" and think that this lets the South off the hook. It may still be useful to single out the South as being more racist than any other region in the US. Yet it would also be inaccurate to stereotype Southerners as being racist, since that's obviously ridiculous. Some of the most open-minded and inclusive people I've met have been Southerners, and they didn't hesitate to voice their disgust over their home state's level of ignorance and hate.

[Junkyard Dawg]

Originally posted by e1618978
I looked up hate crime statistics:

New Hampshire has 100 times the hate crimes per capita of Louisiana...

Where's someone more likely to get prosecuted for killing a gay black man, New England, or Mississippi?

Here in MI some time ago, two guys beat a gay man to death. The judge let them off with a warning, and there wasn't even any national coverage of the murder. This incident was never reported as a hate crime.

[Junkyard Dawg]

Originally posted by Mac on a Mac
As I said earlier in this thread, I grew up in a large, northern city and it was downright mean racist. The South has slavery in its history which will always haunt it, but I think we live together much better down here than yankees tend to think.

Perhaps, but if so, why does the South respond so reliably to political campaigns based on fear and hate? Why does the anti-gay message work in Alabama and Texas but not California and Massachusetts?

And why does our Southern president go out of his way to bash Massachusetts? Isn't he president of ALL states? Family values man that Bush is, I figured he would respect MA for having the lowest rates of abortion, out of wedlock births, and divorce.

Oh, and what states have the most abortions, the most divorces, and the most single mother births? Southern states.

I think the problem here is that many non-Southerners see this data or experience Southerners in a bad way, and then go on to stereotype anyone with a southern accent. But this is NOT the same as homophobia or racism! Why? Because Southerners are not persecuted in America. The South is the most politically powerful region in the country, partly because Southerners only vote for Southerners, and it is a bit pathetic for such a powerful region to have a persecution complex.

You know what else is a form of stereotyping? When Southerners characterize all east/west coast liberals as "latte-sipping, sushi-eating, Volvo-driving snobs." The liberals I've met who have a disdain for the South have a very specific list of grievances, and that's not snobbery. It doesn't make me snob to think that bigots, racists, and misogynists are full of shit. As I noted earlier, there is a problem with some liberals stereotyping all Southerners as bigots, but it doesn't seem as bad as the stereotyping done by what seems like a large minority of Southerners.

[groverat]

It's really easy to make your state look race-friendly if they just repress all the facts.

Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
And why does our Southern president go out of his way to bash Massachusetts? Isn't he president of ALL states? Family values man that Bush is, I figured he would respect MA for having the lowest rates of abortion, out of wedlock births, and divorce.

Because his constituency operates on very base levels; they need their hate-fuel and you need to feed them more ignorance or else they get upset.

Basically they are idiots. Bush was born and raised in Massachussetts by a wealthy, powerful family. He led a life of privelege and excess. But it doesn't matter to them at all. They don't think for themselves, they do what they're told because that's what they've been trained to do since birth.

I could write a book on the goddam Southern political mentality, it's a joke.