NO to amnesty for Illegal aliens!

[steve666]

I received this email from FAIR. I happen to agree with them. The overpopulation of the US must end or we are doomed to third world status.
Enough with ignoring illegal activity, no amnesty for illegals! Any opinions?


Fight the Amnesty/Guestworker Juggernaut
Urge your Elected Officials to Oppose H.R. 2330/S.1033

It is now time to begin mobilizing to defeat a nightmarish amnesty/guestworker bill designed to legalize virtually all 12 million plus resident illegal aliens and create a new open-ended "guestworker" program that lets "guests" stay permanently.
This bill, backed by cheap labor interests and the open-borders lobby, seeks to let big business dictate immigration policy, while hanging a "for sale" sign on visas, green cards, and U.S. citizenship. It has been introduced in both bodies of Congress and has significant support in the Senate.

If enacted, this would drive down American wages and working conditions, place an enormous strain on our health care and educational systems, and make immigration levels completely unmanageable. Cheap labor interests would win a free flow of foreign indentured servants and American taxpayers would be forced to foot the bill.

ACTION NEEDED

FAX your Legislators. Click here then type your zip code in the take action box to send free, pre-written, cosponsor-based editable faxes and emails opposing H.R. 2330/S.1033.
CALL your Legislators. Reiterate your opposition and ask them to comment on their position regarding the bill. Call the Capitol Switchboard (Senate: 202-224-3121, House: 202-225-3121) or get direct numbers from the elected officials section of our web site. See below for some suggested arguments against the bill.
***Tips on Being Effective - Interested in learning more about how to be effective when contacting Congress? Check out the Capitol Hill Basic section of our legislative action center for advice on making phone calls, sending letters, and information on the legislative process.
BILL DETAILS

This legislation is deceivingly titled the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act. The Senate version, S. 1033, was introduced on May 12 by Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Edward Kennedy (D-MA). Reps. Jim Kolbe (R-AZ), Jeff Flake (R-AZ), and Luis Gutierrez (D-IL) introduced the House companion, H.R. 2330.
It would vastly liberalize our immigration system by creating two new guestworker visa categories: one for currently resident illegal aliens, another for future legal participants. After a period of indentured servitude, these so-called "guestworkers" could buy green cards and inevitably U.S. citizenship.

H-5A Visas for New "Guestworkers:"


A new H-5A visa program would be established to provide 3 year work visas to all foreign nationals wishing to work in the U.S. for a minimal fee of $500, provided they find initial employment in the U.S. in occupations other than those considered agricultural or highly skilled. These visas could be renewed for an additional three years, during which point the applicant could apply for a green card.
H-5A visa holders would be eligible for adjustment of status to legal permanent resident immediately through employer-based petitions, or, after they have accumulated four years of work within the United States, through self-petition.
The initial annual cap on this category is set at 400,000 but is designed to automatically increase if that number is reached before the end of the fiscal year. There is no limit on how high the cap may be raised over time.
H-5B Visas for Currently Resident Illegal Aliens:
A new H-5B visa program would be established for nearly all 12 million plus currently resident illegal aliens. Illegal aliens working in the U.S. and their spouses and children could buy a three year visa for $1000, which could be renewed for an additional three years.
After six years of work under the H-5B program they could buy a green card for an additional $1,000, and eventually gain U.S. citizenship.
There is no cap on this visa category, nor is there a cap on the number of individuals that could apply for legal permanent resident status.
TALKING POINTS

Amnesty is Not the Solution:
Amnesty (in any form) is not a solution to the illegal immigration problem. It certainly didn't work when last tried in 1986. It sets a dangerous precedent, encourages more illegal immigration, and is a slap in the face to people who wait in line to come here legally.
Even talking about amnesty intensifies the problem by encouraging more illegal immigration, as demonstrated by increased border apprehensions immediately following the president's announcement of his amnesty/guestworker proposal.
Not only is this an amnesty for illegal aliens, it's an amnesty for employers who illegally hire them. It shield employers from civil or criminal penalties related to unlawfully employing illegal aliens. Nothing in the bill prevents employers from continuing to hire illegal aliens.
There are No Jobs Americans Won't Do:
There are no jobs Americans won't do, only wages and working conditions that are below livable standards.
Flooding the labor market with cheap foreign labor will further depress wages and working conditions not only in lower-skilled occupations but, under this proposal in occupations throughout our economy.
We have the most generous immigration policy in the world, taking in nearly a million legal immigrants each year. It's inconceivable to argue that there aren't enough workers here to fill labor needs.
American Taxpayers Pay the Price for Cheap Labor:
This is a win for cheap labor interests and a loss for American taxpayers forced to fund health care, education, and other public service costs incurred by illegal aliens who would qualify for this amnesty and "guestworkers" who never have to go home.
The Real Solution:
The real solution to the illegal immigration problem is to remove the job magnet by requiring employers nationwide to participate in the employment eligibility verification system and enforcing laws against employers who hire illegal aliens.
* Please forward this message to friends and email lists.
* Not on our action alert list? Click here to subscribe.
* For breaking immigration news, visit the Stein Report.
* Fax your legislators for free from FAIR's Legislative Action Center.
* Support our work! We depend on contributions from people like you.

http://www.fairus.org/
(202) 328-7004

[Gene Clean]

Screw you, hippie!

[talksense101]

Go for it. Kick out everyone who is not a true American. The only problem is that you will be left out with only American Indians and there aren't enough of them left out in the reserves to sustain the nation. Maybe you can include Caucasians who have been in the continent for a hundred years of so. That would work. You would still need people willing to do physical labour. So maybe some afro-americans or hispanics who have been around for a while. What's that? You don't have skilled labour. Ok, let's exempt the really smart people you have been attracting from countries all over. Lets give them a VISA...

Back to square one?

[sammi jo]

Originally posted by steve666
[B]I received this email from FAIR. I happen to agree with them. The overpopulation of the US must end or we are doomed to third world status.
Enough with ignoring illegal activity, no amnesty for illegals! Any opinions?


Agreed. Everybody should be subject to the same laws, and policing of those laws. I don't care if one's black, white, brown or yellow, there must be one interpretation of the law only. If you come in illegally, then you get booted out. It's a simple as that. Immigration should never be perceived as a race issue or made into one. Its not only a matter of law, but a space and resources matter, especially here in S. California.

One law, one standard, no duplicity or privilege, and no playing the race card thankyou very much.

My 2c.

[steve666]

Originally posted by talksense101
Go for it. Kick out everyone who is not a true American. The only problem is that you will be left out with only American Indians and there aren't enough of them left out in the reserves to sustain the nation. Maybe you can include Caucasians who have been in the continent for a hundred years of so. That would work. You would still need people willing to do physical labour. So maybe some afro-americans or hispanics who have been around for a while. What's that? You don't have skilled labour. Ok, let's exempt the really smart people you have been attracting from countries all over. Lets give them a VISA...

Back to square one?

My grandparents came here LEGALLY. Can you see the difference?

[steve666]

Originally posted by sammi jo
Agreed. Everybody should be subject to the same laws, and policing of those laws. I don't care if one's black, white, brown or yellow, there must be one interpretation of the law only. If you come in illegally, then you get booted out. It's a simple as that. Immigration should never be perceived as a race issue or made into one. Its not only a matter of law, but a space and resources matter, especially here in S. California.

One law, one standard, no duplicity or privilege, and no playing the race card thankyou very much.

My 2c.

Amen to that

[hardeeharhar]

Here is the thing...

And the thing is this:

Illegal immigrants are going to exist in the country. The more illegal they are, the lower their wages, and an increase likelihood that they will partake in other illegal activities.

It is like premarital sex, you can outright ban it, but you are still going to be faced with the consequences of it occurring.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Here is the thing...

And the thing is this:

Illegal immigrants are going to exist in the country. The more illegal they are, the lower their wages, and an increase likelihood that they will partake in other illegal activities.

It is like premarital sex, you can outright ban it, but you are still going to be faced with the consequences of it occurring. So let's just accept foreign invasion?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
My grandparents came here LEGALLY. Can you see the difference?

Newbie.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by NaplesX
So let's just accept foreign invasion?

Ever wonder how we all got here?

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by midwinter Ever wonder how we all got here? Until someone shows me an organization that isn't a total f-ing joke like FAIR is, I won't be taking any orgs. seriously. FAIR is a total joke.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by NaplesX
So let's just accept foreign invasion?

Hmm... That would require illegal immigrants to be agents of their government. There is no proof that they are. You are wrong.

[New]

stop complaining.

You have the space.

[groverat]

steve666:

Do not just post damned e-mail forwards into your post. Summarize the points and link to something that big. This is not a place for you to copy and paste your favorite e-mail forwards.

sammijo:

It's certainly about race if the law you want to enforce is racist to begin with.

[e1618978]

As a libertarian, my position on immegration is that we should allow unlimited immegration for non-criminals/terrorists, and just not give them any social services (welfare, etc) until they become citizens (which I think should happen after 20 years of residency). The ones that can't feed themselves will leave.

One of my families friends was a productive member of the community, and she got booted out. She missed the amnesty under Clinton because her ex-husband was also here under a student visa. All but one of her children were born here, and she could not come back for their marriages. I thought that really sucked - I know plenty of people that are allowed to stay that don't contribute.

The only thing that makes me go against this is that we seem to be importing a lot of conservative cathelocs that vote on values issues like gay marriage. Damn immegrants!

[sammi jo]

sammijo:

It's certainly about race if the law you want to enforce is racist to begin with. [/B]

Very true...enough said. Apart from getting the law amended, if racist to begin with, so it too, does not exhibit double standards and privileges. And that will be like pushing a steam roller up Mt. Everest, in the teeth of a hurricane.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gilsch
Until someone shows me an organization that isn't a total f-ing joke like FAIR is, I won't be taking any orgs. seriously. FAIR is a total joke.

FAIR is fantastic. They email me with Congressional alerts and I send faxes, etc to every member in my district.

FAIR rocks!

http://www.fairus.org

[steve666]

Originally posted by groverat
steve666:

Do not just post damned e-mail forwards into your post. Summarize the points and link to something that big. This is not a place for you to copy and paste your favorite e-mail forwards.

sammijo:

It's certainly about race if the law you want to enforce is racist to begin with.

What's the big deal? I thought some people might want to read the whole thing.
But if King Groverat objects I won't do it next time.:rolleyes:

[steve666]

Originally posted by e1618978
As a libertarian, my position on immegration is that we should allow unlimited immegration for non-criminals/terrorists, and just not give them any social services (welfare, etc) until they become citizens (which I think should happen after 20 years of residency). The ones that can't feed themselves will leave.



They will not leave, they will get Govmnt aid.
Unlimited immigration means a population increase similar to a third world country. We already have that with our 1 million/year immgration rate which is way too high.

High immigration decreases wages, raises housing costs, has deleterious environmental consequences, increases sprawl, promotes school overcrowding, raised taxes to cover the costs of population increases, water shortages in States prone to it, and a reduced if not destroyed quality of life.

In my opinion, the LEGAL immigration rate should be about 200,000 per year with needed skills taken into account. It could be increased if a definite need arose.

[hardeeharhar]

Prove all of your claims, please.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Prove all of your claims, please.

Prove that they aren't true

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Prove that they aren't true

I am not claiming that they are facts, you are.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I am not claiming that they are facts, you are.

Then do some research.
Start here:

http://www.fairus.org

[segovius]

Originally posted by steve666
Then do some research.
Start here:

http://www.fairus.org

I'm getting deja vu all over again....

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Prove all of your claims, please. He can't. The organization in question, "FAIR" is ...well, do a quick Google and find out how misleading and ridiculous they are. Read up on their founders, the board, where they get their money from etc.

If you were to write a piece that is scandalously anti-immigrants, they'd quote and reference you. :D

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Then do some research.
Start here:

http://www.fairus.org

no. you do the research. and prove your claims to us.

you are a weak willed person, aren't you?

what you are trying to get away with is utterly laughable here.

you are not the voice of authority on this subject, and I will not take you issuance of truths to be reflective of anything.

illegal immigrants are the life blood of this country. a man-hour from a mexican immigrant is more productive than a man-hour of an american, on average. cheap labor is vital to continuation of our quality of life -- otherwise the middle class couldn't afford the mcmansion knockoffs it lives in... etc etc etc.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
no. you do the research. and prove your claims to us.

you are a weak willed person, aren't you?

what you are trying to get away with is utterly laughable here.

you are not the voice of authority on this subject, and I will not take you issuance of truths to be reflective of anything.

illegal immigrants are the life blood of this country. a man-hour from a mexican immigrant is more productive than a man-hour of an american, on average. cheap labor is vital to continuation of our quality of life -- otherwise the middle class couldn't afford the mcmansion knockoffs it lives in... etc etc etc.

Ahhhh the lefties crawl out of the woodwork.
I couldn't give a rats ass whether clowns like you believe me.
I gave a link, use it.
Illegals work for very little pay, thereby lowering wages for everyone. i don't blame them for wanting to come here, I blame our Govmnt and saps like yourself for allowing it to happen.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Ahhhh the lefties crawl out of the woodwork.
I couldn't give a rats ass whether clowns like you believe me.
I gave a link, use it.
Illegals work for very little pay, thereby lowering wages for everyone. i don't blame them for wanting to come here, I blame our Govmnt and saps like yourself for allowing it to happen.

Lefty? Hardly.

Educated? Definitely.

How do illegals reduce the wages of people who are not employed in jobs that they perform? Think about it. Illegal immigrants take jobs Americans do not want. They aren't competing with anyones wages. In point of fact they are making goods in the US cheaper thereby raising our standard of living.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
illegal immigrants are the life blood of this country. a man-hour from a mexican immigrant is more productive than a man-hour of an american, on average. cheap labor is vital to continuation of our quality of life -- otherwise the middle class couldn't afford the mcmansion knockoffs it lives in... etc etc etc. They will be the death of this country. I would love to see you put an illegal in front of a computer and tell him to correct the permissions on 'nix server or transfer a website from one server to the other. After that research the cost-effectiveness of switching platforms, then plan a company-wide fall over plan, and to top it off train another company to use their computers effectively. I mow my own lawn thank you very much.

huge amounts of the money made by illegals is sent right back to where they came from. Here's to boosting the Mexican economy while hurting our own.

[segovius]

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, Über alles in der Welt, Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze Brüderlich zusammenhält.....

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Lefty? Hardly.

Educated? Definitely.

How do illegals reduce the wages of people who are not employed in jobs that they perform? Think about it. Illegal immigrants take jobs Americans do not want. They aren't competing with anyones wages. In point of fact they are making goods in the US cheaper thereby raising our standard of living. Um, sorry to interrupt your pontificating.

I started a company with my wife doing construction cleaning. We were outbid constantly by companies that hired low wage illegals. We had to lower our cost so much that we were loosing money and got out of that business because of it. I had to lay off 3 people. I hardly see how that helps the economy.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by NaplesX
They will be the death of this country. I would love to see you put an illegal in front of a computer and tell him to correct the permissions on 'nix server or transfer a website from one server to the other. After that research the cost-effectiveness of switching platforms, then plan a company-wide fall over plan, and to top it off train another company to use their computers effectively. I mow my own lawn thank you very much.

huge amounts of the money made by illegals is sent right back to where they came from. Here's to boosting the Mexican economy while hurting our own.

You just proved my point. Thank you very much. They take the jobs that 'mericans don't want.

It is a process that moves towards equlibrium regardless of what you do. There is no stopping the faster rise in quality of life in 2nd/3rd world countries than in 1st world countries. By simple economics it works out that this is the way it will be regardless of what you do up top, on the ground, or down below. The money the immigrants ship back to mexico is on the same order of the money that we would ship to mexico to buy cheaper crops because american farm hands are paid minimum wage etc etc etc...

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Um, sorry to interrupt your pontificating.

I started a company with my wife doing construction cleaning. We were outbid constantly by companies that hired low wage illegals. We had to lower our cost so much that we were loosing money and got out of that business because of it. I had to lay off 3 people. I hardly see how that helps the economy.

You were worse off but I don't care, nor does the economy. Ultimately the jobs got done for cheaper and cost the companies wanting them less money so they could employ more people...

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You just proved my point. Thank you very much. They take the jobs that 'mericans don't want.

It is a process that moves towards equlibrium regardless of what you do. There is no stopping the faster rise in quality of life in 2nd/3rd world countries than in 1st world countries. By simple economics it works out that this is the way it will be regardless of what you do up top, on the ground, or down below. The money the immigrants ship back to mexico is on the same order of the money that we would ship to mexico to buy cheaper crops because american farm hands are paid minimum wage etc etc etc... Who said the people I laid off did not want or need their jobs?

They did but I could not pay them $3.00 an hour in order to compete, even if they wanted to work for that much, that would be, um illegal, much the people that are taking these jobs for lower than minimum wage. Not to mention that they snuck across a border of a sovereign nation. What about the numerous illegal activities that it takes to remain in a country illegally - like buying stolen SS numbers and forged documents.

Everyon keeps moving beyond that whole illegal thing.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Who said the people I laid off did not want or need their jobs?

They did but I could not pay them $3.00 an hour in order to compete, even if they wanted to work for that much, that would be, um illegal, much the people that are taking these jobs for lower than minimum wage. Not to mention that they snuck across a border of a sovereign nation. What about the numerous illegal activities that it takes to remain in a country illegally - like buying stolen SS numbers and forged documents.

Everyon keeps moving beyond that whole illegal thing.

You are a republican, you should know that laws only apply to the middle class and lower class...

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You are a republican, you should know that laws only apply to the middle class and lower class... I am not a republican and I obey the laws, regardless of wether I agree with them or not.

Edit: Can you address my comments to you or do you need the help of the collective?

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by NaplesX
I am not a republican



Great now we have republicans in denail.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by NaplesX
I am not a republican and I obey the laws, regardless of wether I agree with them or not.

Edit: Can you address my comments to you or do you need the help of the collective?

My only point was that laws are often enforced according to need versus justice. It is more important to the US economy, according to some, that we have a steady source of cheap labor whether at home or abroad. Our lifestyle depends upon it. Think about asian cars, which are of the same quality as midrange american cars, but are sold for much less even with importation fees... One reason is that american workers are expensive...

[hardeeharhar]

I am turning my computer off for the evening....

I will address whatever points arise as I see fit tomorrow or Monday...

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Lefty? Hardly.

Educated? Definitely.

How do illegals reduce the wages of people who are not employed in jobs that they perform? Think about it. Illegal immigrants take jobs Americans do not want. They aren't competing with anyones wages. In point of fact they are making goods in the US cheaper thereby raising our standard of living.

Illegals are not taking jobs Americans won't do, they are getting jobs because they work for far less than an American or legal immigrant would.
Reducing the pay scale on the low end affects that scale. Why pay more if you can get someone to do the job for so little?
More people competing for jobs lowers the wage levels for the same reasons they raise housing costs. More people looking for work gives business the upper hand in determining pay. More people looking for housing means fewer units available and therefore, property owners have the upper hand in determining how much they can charge for their house, and landlords cam command whatever they want in rent.

[steve666]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Um, sorry to interrupt your pontificating.

I started a company with my wife doing construction cleaning. We were outbid constantly by companies that hired low wage illegals. We had to lower our cost so much that we were loosing money and got out of that business because of it. I had to lay off 3 people. I hardly see how that helps the economy.

Exactly.
Then we can add to the cost of building new schools to teach children of illegals, health care costs of illegals which is in the billions.
When will California ever see a balanced budget? Think none of their problems have anything to do with millions of illegals living there?

The Feds don't bear the brunt of the cost of illegals, the States do.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You are a republican, you should know that laws only apply to the middle class and lower class...

What difference would it make whether he was Republican or not? The fact is that he is correct and you are wrong. I should then assume you are a Democrat?

Before you ask (or label), I am an independent. I voted for Al Gore and John Kerry.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I am turning my computer off for the evening....

I will address whatever points arise as I see fit tomorrow or Monday...

We all wait with baited breath

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
We all wait with baited breath

Not me. I wait with bated breath, because that's how you spell it.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally posted by midwinter
Not me. I wait with bated breath, because that's how you spell it.

You're a real master.

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
Not me. I wait with bated breath, because that's how you spell it.

It's funny. I thought that was the way to spell it also, but I typed in 'baited breath' on google and it came up with many links with that spelling, so I went with it.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
It's funny. I thought that was the way to spell it also, but I typed in 'baited breath' on google and it came up with many links with that spelling, so I went with it.

Just goes to show how popular something that's completely, demonstrably false can be. ;)

[Wrong Robot]

Well, I personally would have Wated with Baited breath, but that's just me.

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
Just goes to show how popular something that's completely, demonstrably false can be. ;)

Good one, even though it's a dig at me.
;)

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
Good one, even though it's a dig at me.
;)

Well, not at you specifically.

[Empyrean]

I will admit to not reading this entire thread but I'll voice my (possibly niave) opinion. I think a guest worker program is a good thing. I think if we had that program years ago we wouldn't have so many illegals. The majority of illegals are here to work so let them continue legally. This is what they wanted in the first place.

I think if we revamp our immigration laws to better suit the needs of our country we are heading in the right direction. Who cares if we give the current illegals amnesty? It doesn't mean that any future illegals with new laws will get it. You make guest worker programs available and you will have less illegals. Less illegals means easier enforcement of our immigration laws. The illegals that then sneak across our borders will have it much tougher. To me, this just sounds like a win-win situation.

--AJ

[steve666]

Originally posted by Empyrean
I will admit to not reading this entire thread but I'll voice my (possibly niave) opinion. I think a guest worker program is a good thing. I think if we had that program years ago we wouldn't have so many illegals. The majority of illegals are here to work so let them continue legally. This is what they wanted in the first place.

I think if we revamp our immigration laws to better suit the needs of our country we are heading in the right direction. Who cares if we give the current illegals amnesty? It doesn't mean that any future illegals with new laws will get it. You make guest worker programs available and you will have less illegals. Less illegals means easier enforcement of our immigration laws. The illegals that then sneak across our borders will have it much tougher. To me, this just sounds like a win-win situation.

--AJ

What happened after the 1986 amnesty? More illegals.
If you give amnesty to those who broke the law, more will try to break the law.
Amnesty means more than the 11 million already here, the rest of their families will be free to join them. It will be a bigger disaster than the 1986 amnesty, which after passage basically guaranteed that California and other high immigrant States would basically never see another balanced budget.

[hardeeharhar]

The AFL-CIO (http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/rights/rightsatwork/disc_immigrants.cfm) supports an immigration reform policy which includes offering amnesty to current illegals. Their reasons are better than I have argued here, but it is clear enough that labor is viewing illegal immigrants as a monumental problem, especially with respect to working conditions.

The vast majority of illegal immigrants are day workers who work most of the time as farm hands. The US population, regardless of any saber-raddling by members here, does not produce farm hands, we are simply not in that economic regimen. In addition, while I can reasonably argue that our cost of living necessarily rises with wages of all workers, and thus we can expect pressure on Americans to seek lower wages as a result of a non-amnesty boot-em-all policy, my primary concern is the immediate quality of life of everyone within our borders, legal or not.

I couldn't care less about whether we boot these workers or not (my primary reasons for not booting them is that a void of millions of farm hands won't be pretty), all of the complaints that are legitimate can be solved by a strong requirement for employers in the US to pay all employees minimum wage. Giving illegal immigrants a legal status is a way of tracking these individuals and ensuring that they are getting paid what the US government deems. Forget cheap labor, this can give them the ability to unionize, demand working conditions that are appropriate, and from "our" side, lets taxes be collected from these workers. Giving a legal status to non-citizens of this type, with the requisite increase in wages will provide an economic incentive for these illegals to register. More money = better life, here and at home = entire reason for being here.

I am not in support of Bush's plan per se, but I think it is a poor solution to something that clearly can be fixed without the seal the border crowd yelling at the rafters.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
The vast majority of illegal immigrants are day workers who work most of the time as farm hands. The US population, regardless of any saber-raddling by members here, does not produce farm hands, we are simply not in that economic regimen.

Actually, it's not so much that the US doesn't produce farm hands. It's that farmers can't afford to pay American workers. Of course, American farmers can't really charge what they need to for their crops, anyway. No one wants to pay $9 for a potato.

[e1618978]

They will not leave, they will get Govmnt aid.

You didn't read the whole post before responding - I said that a nessessary condition for unlimited immegration is no social benefits for non-citizens.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by e1618978
You didn't read the whole post before responding - I said that a nessessary condition for unlimited immegration is no social benefits for non-citizens.

There are legal immigrants who are not citizens yet [they wait 5 years to become citizens]. They pay taxes, work legally, are educated legally, and participate in all community related work and contribute to the society much like citizens. No social benefits for them? Why not?

Furthermore, 'social benefits' is a broad term, it has no defined borders of what it actually incorporates. What's a social benefit? Using the roads of this society to go to work? Drinking water from fountains in public parks? Sitting in a bench in a public park? Ejoying the newly built roads and the security provided by the government?

These are all social benefits, but in contrast to say, Medicaid or Food Stamps, you can't just take them away because they belong to the whole community and are subject to be used by the community no matter if one's a citizen or not.

[sammi jo]

There was an earlier thread about this problem, (and the 'minutemen'...which is a wrongheaded, cart before-the-horse, misplaced priorties approach).

Ask the question, why do illegals come here in throngs, mostly from Mexico? Answer... the crooked employment practises of (mostly) big agribusiness, who knowingly employ illegals without working visas (aka Green Cards), fully aware that they can flout the laws of the land with impunity, presumably because of their wealth and connections. The record speaks for itself: anyone find or hear of a case where a big agri-corporation got busted for employing illegal labor? There maybe cases but the law is generally not policed, and ignored.

As soon as these businesses are brought to heel and operate in a law-abiding framework, just like the rest of us are expected to do, then the motivation for wholesale immigration from Mexico and other Central American nations will start to founder. The underlying problem is that the US government and big business of all persuasions coexist in unhealthy, anti-democratic symbiosis.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by sammi jo
There was an earlier thread about this problem, (and the 'minutemen'...which is a wrongheaded, cart before-the-horse, misplaced priorties approach).

Ask the question, why do illegals come here in throngs, mostly from Mexico? Answer... the crooked employment practises of (mostly) big agribusiness, who knowingly employ illegals without working visas (aka Green Cards), fully aware that they can flout the laws of the land with impunity, presumably because of their wealth and connections. The record speaks for itself: anyone find or hear of a case where a big agri-corporation got busted for employing illegal labor? There maybe cases but the law is generally not policed, and ignored.

As soon as these businesses are brought to heel and operate in a law-abiding framework, just like the rest of us are expected to do, then the motivation for wholesale immigration from Mexico and other Central American nations will start to founder. The underlying problem is that the US government and big business of all persuasions coexist in unhealthy, anti-democratic symbiosis.

Most agribusiness is not "big business", and the truely big agricultural buisnesses probably don't hire illegals just as a self-protection measure.

Most illegals that I know work in small grading and landscaping businesses.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
The AFL-CIO (http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/rights/rightsatwork/disc_immigrants.cfm) supports an immigration reform policy which includes offering amnesty to current illegals. Their reasons are better than I have argued here, but it is clear enough that labor is viewing illegal immigrants as a monumental problem, especially with respect to working conditions.

The vast majority of illegal immigrants are day workers who work most of the time as farm hands. The US population, regardless of any saber-raddling by members here, does not produce farm hands, we are simply not in that economic regimen. In addition, while I can reasonably argue that our cost of living necessarily rises with wages of all workers, and thus we can expect pressure on Americans to seek lower wages as a result of a non-amnesty boot-em-all policy, my primary concern is the immediate quality of life of everyone within our borders, legal or not.

I couldn't care less about whether we boot these workers or not (my primary reasons for not booting them is that a void of millions of farm hands won't be pretty), all of the complaints that are legitimate can be solved by a strong requirement for employers in the US to pay all employees minimum wage. Giving illegal immigrants a legal status is a way of tracking these individuals and ensuring that they are getting paid what the US government deems. Forget cheap labor, this can give them the ability to unionize, demand working conditions that are appropriate, and from "our" side, lets taxes be collected from these workers. Giving a legal status to non-citizens of this type, with the requisite increase in wages will provide an economic incentive for these illegals to register. More money = better life, here and at home = entire reason for being here.

I am not in support of Bush's plan per se, but I think it is a poor solution to something that clearly can be fixed without the seal the border crowd yelling at the rafters.

The Union heads (you'd have to take a vote to see if the actual union members support them) want illegals legalized because they believe they can unionize them. Unions have dropped in numbers quite a bit from their heyday. The problem with this rationale is that wages will be kept down with such a drastic increase in newly legalized workers.

The farm workers actually make up a small percentage of illegals. I agree that farm workers need to be imported and i would support a guest worker program for farm workers only as long as citizenship is not part of the package and it explicitly states that.

The first illegal alien amnesty was a disaster. A second one would be even worse. Its not just that they are here anyway, an amnesty won't make things worse, realize that if we legalize 11 million illegals we are actually legalizing at least 3 times that amount if total family reunification is added.

California will never see a balanced budget in our lifetime if an amnesty takes place. The same will be true for other States with high numbers of illegals. It will be a disaster.

No to mention the fact that citizenship should not be granted to those who broke our laws to gain entry and jumped over legal immigrants waiting for their chance the right way. It's a slap in the face to everyone who ever immigrated here legally.

[steve666]

Originally posted by e1618978
You didn't read the whole post before responding - I said that a nessessary condition for unlimited immegration is no social benefits for non-citizens.

And that doesn't exist. The same people that are big enough saps to award citizenship to those who broke our laws in the first place will not want to be big meanies and strip govmnt aid from those who clearly don't deserve it.

Unlimited immgration is a nice one way ticket to third world status and further environmental degradation. Thats not what I want for my country.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
There are legal immigrants who are not citizens yet [they wait 5 years to become citizens]. They pay taxes, work legally, are educated legally, and participate in all community related work and contribute to the society much like citizens. No social benefits for them? Why not?

Furthermore, 'social benefits' is a broad term, it has no defined borders of what it actually incorporates. What's a social benefit? Using the roads of this society to go to work? Drinking water from fountains in public parks? Sitting in a bench in a public park? Ejoying the newly built roads and the security provided by the government?

These are all social benefits, but in contrast to say, Medicaid or Food Stamps, you can't just take them away because they belong to the whole community and are subject to be used by the community no matter if one's a citizen or not.

Thus proving my previous point. The same people that will reward illegals for breaking our laws will allow Govmnt aid for legal immigrants.
Immigrants are supposed to be able to survive on their own. If they can't, they are supposed to go back home. That is what made this country grow-only the strong survive.
Unfortunately the namby pamby's have taken over.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by steve666
Thus proving my previous point. The same people that will reward illegals for breaking our laws will allow Govmnt aid for legal immigrants.
Immigrants are supposed to be able to survive on their own. If they can't, they are supposed to go back home. That is what made this country grow-only the strong survive.
Unfortunately the namby pamby's have taken over. I would suggest that non-mamby-pambies have taken over and began to flex their muscle. But the mamby-pambies have raised such a fuss and lied and misled with the help of the media, that it is impossible for the current powers to be to do anything without some major negative backlash.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by steve666
Thus proving my previous point. The same people that will reward illegals for breaking our laws will allow Govmnt aid for legal immigrants.
Immigrants are supposed to be able to survive on their own. If they can't, they are supposed to go back home. That is what made this country grow-only the strong survive.
Unfortunately the namby pamby's have taken over.

Though you claim that your family came here legally, you are unable to realize that your family received government benefits as well. The first thing they received was citizenship. That allowed for some other benefits, namely voting rights, et al.

However, a lot of immigrants that come here today are people whose homes have been destroyed, people that have escaped the wraths of war, or people that have been forcefully deported from their own land. They are called REFUGEES. Note that I said 'a lot' and not 'all', because some of them come here because they have family here, etc.

Now, I'm not quite clear how a refugee, whose property was destroyed or is otherwise unable to excersize his right to it, can survive in the US without any government help, in the beginning. First of all, they need to find a shelter. Then they need to buy furniture, clothes, and some food as well. That costs money. The government, usually state governments, only pay about $220 per month per person, and then, if a case has been established, a family can receive Food Stamps as well, them too, around $200. That's how it is in the state of IL.

Now these people are newcomers, and they need help from the government to kind of stand on their feet. Of course, once they do stand on their feet, the government lets them go [I think it's 8 months]. This is hardly a burden for the government since they do repay what they received by giving back to the government in the form of taxes, intellect, and/or social work. You know, many of them have special skills and are highly educated too.

You seem to miss the big picture: illegal aliens are the ones that pay taxes, but don't receive any benefits from the government. At least the ones working in a job that isn't run by people that prefere tax evasion. Yet you seem to think that barring tax-paying people from receiving 'social benefits' as opposed to 'government benefits' is somehow good and just.

I think you've just messed up your terminology, and while you were at it, you kind of lumped together legal and illegal immigrants all the while thinking they're the same. All I can say is: get a clue.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Though you claim that your family came here legally, you are unable to realize that your family received government benefits as well. The first thing they received was citizenship. That allowed for some other benefits, namely voting rights, et al.

However, a lot of immigrants that come here today are people whose homes have been destroyed, people that have escaped the wraths of war, or people that have been forcefully deported from their own land. They are called REFUGEES. Note that I said 'a lot' and not 'all', because some of them come here because they have family here, etc.

Now, I'm not quite clear how a refugee, whose property was destroyed or is otherwise unable to excersize his right to it, can survive in the US without any government help, in the beginning. First of all, they need to find a shelter. Then they need to buy furniture, clothes, and some food as well. That costs money. The government, usually state governments, only pay about $220 per month per person, and then, if a case has been established, a family can receive Food Stamps as well, them too, around $200. That's how it is in the state of IL.

Now these people are newcomers, and they need help from the government to kind of stand on their feet. Of course, once they do stand on their feet, the government lets them go [I think it's 8 months]. This is hardly a burden for the government since they do repay what they received by giving back to the government in the form of taxes, intellect, and/or social work. You know, many of them have special skills and are highly educated too.

You seem to miss the big picture: illegal aliens are the ones that pay taxes, but don't receive any benefits from the government. At least the ones working in a job that isn't run by people that prefere tax evasion. Yet you seem to think that barring tax-paying people from receiving 'social benefits' as opposed to 'government benefits' is somehow good and just.

I think you've just messed up your terminology, and while you were at it, you kind of lumped together legal and illegal immigrants all the while thinking they're the same. All I can say is: get a clue.

Now where do i begin to unravel your drivel?
First off, the Government never gave a dime to my grandparents. They came here, found a job and lived on. The only aid that immigrants receive are from charity organizations. Social welfare did not even exist when my grandparents came over here and American citizens were lucky to ever see a dime from the Govmnt.

Illegal aliens do not pay taxes because they do not have SS Numbers. State Govmnts especially do not see any money from them, yet they have to shell out services in the form of schooling for their children (those that made it over here), health care (which I and every other American pays for out of our taxes), Policing (immigrant communities commit more crime than other communities), higher housing costs (illegals rent , and fewer apts are available to those who are supposed to be here), and this is not including non-monetary costs such as sprawl, increased traffic, and reduced quality of life.

Now, time for you to get a clue and realize that illegal immigration is a huge economic drain to the US and reduces our quality of life.
Any way we can deport you along with them?

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by steve666

Now where do i begin to unravel your drivel?
First off, the Government never gave a dime to my grandparents. They came here, found a job and lived on. The only aid that immigrants receive are from charity organizations. Social welfare did not even exist when my grandparents came over here and American citizens were lucky to ever see a dime from the Govmnt.


err... you don't read what I write, do you? Because if you did, you wouldn't be engaging in 'my family never received anything!!11!' bitchin' that you're in right now.

Your family received the right to have those benefits in the future. They recieved their CITIZENSHIP. Ever heard of that thing? That thing alone is a huge benefit that others don't get. Your grandparents recieved the right to use those benefits even though they didn't do anything to contribute back. They received it automatically, by virtue of being here, where as legal immigrants have to wait 5 years and contribute first, then get their citizenship. Your grandparents received their citizenship right away, used the social services right away, didn't have to wait 5 years for them, and you're still bitchin' to me here?

They didn't benefit from the police keeping their property safe? From roads being built? From public parks? From public libraries?


Illegal aliens do not pay taxes because they do not have SS Numbers.

Wake up, my man. If they work at McDonalds taxes are deducted from their cheques no matter what. If they work at a construction company, taxes are deducted from their cheques. The only way they wouldn't be paying taxes would be if they recieved their wages under-the-counter, which, most people agree, is not the norm.


State Govmnts especially do not see any money from them, yet they have to shell out services in the form of schooling for their children (those that made it over here), health care (which I and every other American pays for out of our taxes), Policing (immigrant communities commit more crime than other communities), higher housing costs (illegals rent , and fewer apts are available to those who are supposed to be here), and this is not including non-monetary costs such as sprawl, increased traffic, and reduced quality of life.

Do you want masses of people that are illiterate and with no qualifications whatsoever?

Do you want children born here [US Citizens] to be rejected from schooling because they belong to immigrant families?

And they don't receive any health care, that's patently a lie.

Now, time for you to get a clue and realize that illegal immigration is a huge economic drain to the US and reduces our quality of life.

In no point in this thread have you actually proved how it reduces quality of life and how it's an economic drain. Furthermore, you don't even answer questions posed to you, such as my question of what a 'social benefit' is, or why would legal immigrants not get any of these 'social benefits' provided that you actually give a reasoned and factual answer to the former question?


Any way we can deport you along with them?

Why? I'm using 'social benefits' provided to me by this Forum and whilst doing that, I'm 'reducing' your 'quality of life'?

Ignorant.

[steve666]

>err... you don't read what I write, do you? Because if you did, you wouldn't be engaging in 'my family never received anything!!11!' bitchin' that you're in right now.

Your family received the right to have those benefits in the future. They recieved their CITIZENSHIP. Ever heard of that thing? That thing alone is a huge benefit that others don't get. Your grandparents recieved the right to use those benefits even though they didn't do anything to contribute back. They received it automatically, by virtue of being here, where as legal immigrants have to wait 5 years and contribute first, then get their citizenship. Your grandparents received their citizenship right away, used the social services right away, didn't have to wait 5 years for them, and you're still bitchin' to me here?

They didn't benefit from the police keeping their property safe? From roads being built? From public parks? From public libraries? <

What are you babbling about? Citizenship wasn't automatic, and plenty of immigrants went back home when they found they couldn't make it here.




>Wake up, my man. If they work at McDonalds taxes are deducted from their cheques no matter what. If they work at a construction company, taxes are deducted from their cheques. The only way they wouldn't be paying taxes would be if they recieved their wages under-the-counter, which, most people agree, is not the norm. <

Illegals don't work for McDonalds. if they do have a SS number it was stolen from a citizen of the US. You think thats cool? And most construction work, lawn care, day worker work, etc is done off the books.




>Do you want masses of people that are illiterate and with no qualifications whatsoever? <

Already have that

>Do you want children born here [US Citizens] to be rejected from schooling because they belong to immigrant families? <

I want them to be deported along with their law breaking families.

>And they don't receive any health care, that's patently a lie.<

They don't receive health care!? Of course they do you nit. They use emergency rooms, they give birth in hospitals that we pay for, then their children automatically become US citizens, which is also ludicrous.
There are hospitals defaulting and going broke because illegals dont pay their bills and hospitals aren't renumerated at full cost.



>In no point in this thread have you actually proved how it reduces quality of life and how it's an economic drain. Furthermore, you don't even answer questions posed to you, such as my question of what a 'social benefit' is, or why would legal immigrants not get any of these 'social benefits' provided that you actually give a reasoned and factual answer to the former question? <

I have proven it you just choose to ignore the ramifications. A social benefit is health care, police care, schooling, legal care.
Legal immigrants need to be here 5 years before receiving any benefits, although they will get health care just by going to a hospital because they can't be turned away.




>Why? I'm using 'social benefits' provided to me by this Forum and whilst doing that, I'm 'reducing' your 'quality of life'?

Ignorant. <

You're reducing my quality of life by being an annoying nit

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by steve666
[B] What are you babbling about? Citizenship wasn't automatic, and plenty of immigrants went back home when they found they couldn't make it here.

So now you don't want others to have that benefit? I mean, if it wasn't automatic, it was achieved within a certain period of time, right? And did they not enjoy the 'social benefits' during that time? Ignorant.


Illegals don't work for McDonalds. if they do have a SS number it was stolen from a citizen of the US. You think thats cool? And most construction work, lawn care, day worker work, etc is done off the books.

Stolen SS#'s? More like fake. But that doesn't stop the administration from collecting those taxes.


Already have that

As evidenced by you in this thread.


I want them to be deported along with their law breaking families.

You want to deport families that are US citizens?


They don't receive health care!? Of course they do you nit. They use emergency rooms, they give birth in hospitals that we pay for, then their children automatically become US citizens, which is also ludicrous.
There are hospitals defaulting and going broke because illegals dont pay their bills and hospitals aren't renumerated at full cost.

It was ludicrous how you became citizen automatically when you were born too, then.

And 'health care' does not equal emergency rooms. People take their dogs to emergency rooms and they don't pay any taxes.


I have proven it you just choose to ignore the ramifications. A social benefit is health care, police care, schooling, legal care.

You have proven that you are ignorant, yes.

What's 'legal care' anyway? How can you take care, legally, of an illegal alien?


Legal immigrants need to be here 5 years before receiving any benefits, although they will get health care just by going to a hospital because they can't be turned away.

So they need to pay their taxes 5 years, and only then get their benefits? So your sorry ass can take advantage of their taxes and their money 5 years, because you feel like it, right? Ignorant to the extreme.



You're reducing my quality of life by being an annoying nit

Because your thread is pointless and your arguments lack the basic support needed for an intelligent debate?

Yep, I shall always try to reduce the 'qualities' of life of such people. Deal with it.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Though you claim that your family came here legally, you are unable to realize that your family received government benefits as well. The first thing they received was citizenship. That allowed for some other benefits, namely voting rights, et al.

However, a lot of immigrants that come here today are people whose homes have been destroyed, people that have escaped the wraths of war, or people that have been forcefully deported from their own land. They are called REFUGEES. Note that I said 'a lot' and not 'all', because some of them come here because they have family here, etc.

Now, I'm not quite clear how a refugee, whose property was destroyed or is otherwise unable to excersize his right to it, can survive in the US without any government help, in the beginning. First of all, they need to find a shelter. Then they need to buy furniture, clothes, and some food as well. That costs money. The government, usually state governments, only pay about $220 per month per person, and then, if a case has been established, a family can receive Food Stamps as well, them too, around $200. That's how it is in the state of IL.

Now these people are newcomers, and they need help from the government to kind of stand on their feet. Of course, once they do stand on their feet, the government lets them go [I think it's 8 months]. This is hardly a burden for the government since they do repay what they received by giving back to the government in the form of taxes, intellect, and/or social work. You know, many of them have special skills and are highly educated too.

You seem to miss the big picture: illegal aliens are the ones that pay taxes, but don't receive any benefits from the government. At least the ones working in a job that isn't run by people that prefere tax evasion. Yet you seem to think that barring tax-paying people from receiving 'social benefits' as opposed to 'government benefits' is somehow good and just.

I think you've just messed up your terminology, and while you were at it, you kind of lumped together legal and illegal immigrants all the while thinking they're the same. All I can say is: get a clue. No I think the thread is about illegal aliens. ILLEGAL

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by NaplesX
No I think the thread is about illegal aliens. ILLEGAL


READ THE THREAD. He specifically mentions LEGAL aliens as a part of his 'let's deport them!!!111!' crusade.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
READ THE THREAD. He specifically mentions LEGAL aliens as a part of his 'let's deport them!!!111!' crusade. I read the whole thread from inception. I read nowhere that he thought we should deport LEGAL aliens.

He however DID bring them up to point out that there is a way to assimilate into US society LEGALLY.

Those 1000 people that just came across the border under the cover of night are breaking the LAW even if they "are just looking for a better opportunity".

If we follow that standard, it should be OK to move into someone's house while they are away (hell, even if they are there) and declare occupancy. Hey, "I'm just seeking a better way of life here".

Great progressive mindset there....

:no:

[New]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/bo/2005/bo050530.gif

[e1618978]

It seems to me that we need to move to a stable, totally legal situation.

We can do either one of the following:

1. Allow any non-criminal to immegrate and work, but protect the US treasury by restricting welfare and other benefits from those people until they are citizens.

2. Severely restrict immegration, taking drastic measures to prevent companies from hiring illegal immegrants. This allows non-citizens to have welfare and unimployment insurance.

What we are doing now is not a stable situation. I really disagree with Steve666 (a camp 2 person) - I think that the current population of illegal immegrants is vital to our economy and should not be deported, so I am in camp 1.

Gene - you asked what can refugees do when they come here to start up if they cannot get benefits. From what I have seen they have a good support network that finds jobs for the new people right away, so they don't need the benefits initially - if they were legal (camp 1) immegrants, then this would be above board and more accessable even than it is now.

What I don't understand is people that don't fall into either camp (i.e. most of the people in the thread). How could you justify bankrupting our economy like that?

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by talksense101
Go for it. Kick out everyone who is not a true American. The only problem is that you will be left out with only American Indians and there aren't enough of them left out in the reserves to sustain the nation. Maybe you can include Caucasians who have been in the continent for a hundred years of so. That would work. You would still need people willing to do physical labour. So maybe some afro-americans or hispanics who have been around for a while. What's that? You don't have skilled labour. Ok, let's exempt the really smart people you have been attracting from countries all over. Lets give them a VISA...

Back to square one?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. At this point, I think one time amnesty coupled with massive border patrol efforts and immigration law reform would be the way to go. Illegal immigration should not be tolerated. It's a security risk, and probably not a net economic positive. Here's an example of the financial problems concerning health care:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/10/heallth.illegal.ap/

Add to this millions in uncollected federal, local and state income taxes, school taxes and the cost of free services the illegals use and the problem is worse.

We can't just ignore the problem and say that illegals do the jobs that American's won't do. That's a dubious assertion in the first place, but beyond that it's not an excuse for coming into the United States illegally when legal procedures are in place.

What do you suggest?

[Aurora]

We the people should hold our leaders responsible for dereliction of duty. From the very guilty President to all of Congress. They are selling us out to big business who wants illegal workers. Both Parties are guilty. Time to sweep out the incumbants with people representing USA instead of something else.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
The Union heads (you'd have to take a vote to see if the actual union members support them) want illegals legalized because they believe they can unionize them. Unions have dropped in numbers quite a bit from their heyday. The problem with this rationale is that wages will be kept down with such a drastic increase in newly legalized workers.
um... yes and no. Why would wages decrease when the government forces employers to pay 'illegals' more money? That makes no sense. You are striking at a core issue but not going far enough in your analysis... things will become more expensive if we are systematic in our pursuit of employers of illegals... that is an accepted fact.



The farm workers actually make up a small percentage of illegals. I agree that farm workers need to be imported and i would support a guest worker program for farm workers only as long as citizenship is not part of the package and it explicitly states that.

I cannot find statistics that state other than what I have claimed. Care to provide evidence that "farm workers actually make up a small percentage of illegals"?



The first illegal alien amnesty was a disaster. A second one would be even worse. Its not just that they are here anyway, an amnesty won't make things worse, realize that if we legalize 11 million illegals we are actually legalizing at least 3 times that amount if total family reunification is added.

Actually, there have been something like seven amnesties.... So you are wrong on assuming all of our illegal immigrant woes come from one amnesty.


California will never see a balanced budget in our lifetime if an amnesty takes place. The same will be true for other States with high numbers of illegals. It will be a disaster.

One, I don't give a rats ass about California, and two, there is no way you can prove any of what you just said, economic success is unpredictable...

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by SDW2001
I don't think anyone is suggesting that. At this point, I think one time amnesty coupled with massive border patrol efforts and immigration law reform would be the way to go. Illegal immigration should not be tolerated. It's a security risk, and probably not a net economic positive. Here's an example of the financial problems concerning health care:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/10/heallth.illegal.ap/

Add to this millions in uncollected federal, local and state income taxes, school taxes and the cost of free services the illegals use and the problem is worse.

We can't just ignore the problem and say that illegals do the jobs that American's won't do. That's a dubious assertion in the first place, but beyond that it's not an excuse for coming into the United States illegally when legal procedures are in place.

What do you suggest?

According to this site (http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/lwsch/journals/bclawr/41_4/01_TXT.htm), most illegal immigrants are not boarder jumpers as you have indicated here. Most, in fact, are people who have overstayed their temporary work visas...

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Thus proving my previous point. The same people that will reward illegals for breaking our laws will allow Govmnt aid for legal immigrants.
Immigrants are supposed to be able to survive on their own. If they can't, they are supposed to go back home. That is what made this country grow-only the strong survive.
Unfortunately the namby pamby's have taken over.

:rolleyes:

Look at it this way: every nation is responsible for everyone within their borders, citizen or not. That means that if a large group of immigrants from Mexico come into the US and get ebola from handling fruit from africa, that the US government agencies, specifically the CDC, quarantine and treat these individuals and not Mexican authorities simply due to the fact that they are on US soil.

Social darwinism went extinct in 1945.

[steve666]

>So now you don't want others to have that benefit? I mean, if it wasn't automatic, it was achieved within a certain period of time, right? And did they not enjoy the 'social benefits' during that time? Ignorant. <

They came here legally, they did what they were supposed to, then they became citizens. Obviously just being in this country there are benefits but they weren't on the dole, like illegals are. Illegals suck us dry and think they are entitled to it. Bozos like you encourage them.



>Stolen SS#'s? More like fake. But that doesn't stop the administration from collecting those taxes. <

No, they are stolen. if they were fake the numbers wouldn't go through the system. You can't bring yourself to admit that these people are breaking the law can you?




>As evidenced by you in this thread.<
Dumb comment, typical




>You want to deport families that are US citizens?<
I want to deport illegals that give birth to children in the US. Those children for some Godforsaken reason are considered American because the Mexicans were smart enough to come over the border and drop one of their brood here. Not only do we have to foot the bill, they then claim that they have a right to become citizens because their children are. I say, take the lot of them and ship 'em back to Vicente's house. Its a fucking con game.




>It was ludicrous how you became citizen automatically when you were born too, then. <

My parents were born in the US, obviously citizens. if you can't see the difference between legal and illegal buy an education.

>And 'health care' does not equal emergency rooms. People take their dogs to emergency rooms and they don't pay any taxes. <

People take their dogs to vets. Illegals get free health care in hospitals. Our taxes pay for their health care.




>You have proven that you are ignorant, yes. <
Dumb comment #2

>What's 'legal care' anyway? How can you take care, legally, of an illegal alien? <

Being illegal hasn't stopped them from suing people here. Maybe they are more American than I think.





>So they need to pay their taxes 5 years, and only then get their benefits? So your sorry ass can take advantage of their taxes and their money 5 years, because you feel like it, right? Ignorant to the extreme. <

Its not a right to immigrate to this country, its an honor. If they don't want to play by our rules, then stay the fuck home.





>Because your thread is pointless and your arguments lack the basic support needed for an intelligent debate? <

When you make an intelligent statement let us all know. I won't hold my breath.

[steve666]

Originally posted by NaplesX
No I think the thread is about illegal aliens. ILLEGAL

Gene Clean has a comprehension problem. There seems to be some grey matter missing among the rocks.

[steve666]

Originally posted by NaplesX
I read the whole thread from inception. I read nowhere that he thought we should deport LEGAL aliens.

He however DID bring them up to point out that there is a way to assimilate into US society LEGALLY.

Those 1000 people that just came across the border under the cover of night are breaking the LAW even if they "are just looking for a better opportunity".

If we follow that standard, it should be OK to move into someone's house while they are away (hell, even if they are there) and declare occupancy. Hey, "I'm just seeking a better way of life here".

Great progressive mindset there....

:no:

Hard to argue with Gene Clean and his ilk. There isn't a shred of common sense among them.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Aurora
We the people should hold our leaders responsible for dereliction of duty. From the very guilty President to all of Congress. They are selling us out to big business who wants illegal workers. Both Parties are guilty. Time to sweep out the incumbants with people representing USA instead of something else.

Couldn't of said it better myself.
There are many republicans as well as Democrats who need to be removed from office.
Bush is garbage, McCain is weak, and the rest are followers, except for independent minded people like Tom Tancredo, Jim Sensenbrenner, etc.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
According to this site (http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/lwsch/journals/bclawr/41_4/01_TXT.htm), most illegal immigrants are not boarder jumpers as you have indicated here. Most, in fact, are people who have overstayed their temporary work visas...

Thousands of border jumpers make it through each year, although you are correct that a huge number overstay their visas

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by steve666
Gene Clean has a comprehension problem. There seems to be some grey matter missing among the rocks.


You, actually, have a comprehension problem. You comprehend words, but economics is not one of your stronger points I gather.

Seeing this, I think any further discussion with you is futile and pointless. Good luck deporting people. I guess it makes you feel better.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
:rolleyes:

Look at it this way: every nation is responsible for everyone within their borders, citizen or not. That means that if a large group of immigrants from Mexico come into the US and get ebola from handling fruit from africa, that the US government agencies, specifically the CDC, quarantine and treat these individuals and not Mexican authorities simply due to the fact that they are on US soil.

Social darwinism went extinct in 1945.

Thats emergency treatment. We don't have a choice in that instance. Personally, I think our Govmnt should send Mexico the bill.
More specifically I think we should warn Mexico that NAFTA will be scrapped unless Mexico agrees to control their hordes.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
You, actually, have a comprehension problem. You comprehend words, but economics is not one of your stronger points I gather.

Seeing this, I think any further discussion with you is futile and pointless. Good luck deporting people. I guess it makes you feel better.

Its futile and pointless for you because you have no idea what you are talking about. Ta-ta

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by steve666
Its futile and pointless for you because you have no idea what you are talking about. Ta-ta

:no:

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Thats emergency treatment. We don't have a choice in that instance. Personally, I think our Govmnt should send Mexico the bill.
More specifically I think we should warn Mexico that NAFTA will be scrapped unless Mexico agrees to control their hordes.

Why would the Mexican Government have anything to do with the situation?

Edit: In addition, the US government has a responsibility to its own citizens to prevent the spread of disease etc, which is why the US is likely to provide welfare-like benefits to immigrants who don't make it while they are being deported...

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Why would the Mexican Government have anything to do with the situation?

Edit: In addition, the US government has a responsibility to its own citizens to prevent the spread of disease etc, which is why the US is likely to provide welfare-like benefits to immigrants who don't make it while they are being deported...

The mexican Govmnt is encouraging illegal immigration. They even prinbt pamphlets on how to stay safe while crossing the border and hoiw to avoid detection.
How does that make you feel?

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
The mexican Govmnt is encouraging illegal immigration. They even prinbt pamphlets on how to stay safe while crossing the border and hoiw to avoid detection.
How does that make you feel?

What do my emotions have to do with anything?

The US government printed pamphlets telling Iraqis how to surrender. How do you think that made the Iraqis feel?

You need to grow some testes and stop blaming California's problems on illegal immigrants. Namby-pamby my ass.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
What do my emotions have to do with anything?

The US government printed pamphlets telling Iraqis how to surrender. How do you think that made the Iraqis feel?

You need to grow some testes and stop blaming California's problems on illegal immigrants. Namby-pamby my ass.

My testes are perfectly fine thank you.
And that's why I have the balls to tell the truth, even at the risk of getting cluster-fucked by a bunch of whining panty waists

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
My testes are perfectly fine thank you.
And that's why I have the balls to tell the truth, even at the risk of getting cluster-fucked by a bunch of whining panty waists

Truth be told, you have no idea what you are talking about. After having investigated this subject thoroughly shortly after it came about on this site, I have to say you aren't even close to hitting reasonable points to argue from. Your attempts to make the reader *care* about an issue are utterly laughable, and Gene Clean is right in saying you don't know shit about economics, and I will add to that international law, let alone policy.

Your choice in language smacks of racism. You choose to target the mexican hordes, jumping boarders even those these individuals represent a tiny tiny fraction of all illegals. Instead of finding facts to argue from, you chose to stand on senses of things and are ill-informed when challenged.

All in all, I rate your performance here a 1 out of 10. The 1 is for causing Gene Clean to become frustrated, which he shouldn't have because you have no f-ing clue.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by steve666
And that's why I have the balls to tell the truth, even at the risk of getting cluster-fucked by a bunch of whining panty waists :lol: "Balls to tell the truth"?? :lol: How is spreading false propaganda from a worthless organization that takes money from people that support eugenics "having balls"?

Come on, tell us what you really think of "the mexicans".

I love California. How are the mountains of West Virginia treating you mate? :D

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Truth be told, you have no idea what you are talking about. After having investigated this subject thoroughly shortly after it came about on this site, I have to say you aren't even close to hitting reasonable points to argue from. Your attempts to make the reader *care* about an issue are utterly laughable, and Gene Clean is right in saying you don't know shit about economics, and I will add to that international law, let alone policy.

Your choice in language smacks of racism. You choose to target the mexican hordes, jumping boarders even those these individuals represent a tiny tiny fraction of all illegals. Instead of finding facts to argue from, you chose to stand on senses of things and are ill-informed when challenged.

All in all, I rate your performance here a 1 out of 10. The 1 is for causing Gene Clean to become frustrated, which he shouldn't have because you have no f-ing clue.

And this is an argument? All you do is put me and anyone who disagrees with you down, and you consider that a point in your favor?
Are you actually going to stand there and tell me that Mexicans do not make up the vast majority of illegal aliens?
Sometimes I use harsh language to wake you up from your stupor. Unfortunately all it seems to be doing is closing your mind even more towards the truth.
You are stuck in the lie that illegal immigration does no harm to the US.
You are stuck in the lie that America can't survive without illegal cheap labor.
Nothing I say will change your mind but that won't keep me from telling the truth, no matter how many times you call me a racist or whatever other description you use towards someone with an opposing viewpoint to your rose colored world.
Illegals aren't just innocents trying to make a better life for themselves. Their actions have consequences, and those consequences need to be aired.
I am airing them, whether they sound mean or non-PC, or downright nasty.
The truth ain't always pretty.

Now, I am going to sleep. I will pummel you with my verbiage tomorrow should you care to engage me again.
Nighty night.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Are you actually going to stand there and tell me that Mexicans do not make up the vast majority of illegal aliens?

I never said they weren't. Most illegal immigrants are people who have over stayed their work visas. Period. The border jumping variety that you and NaplesX love to think about constitute a small, miniscule, fraction of the illegal immigrants in this country.

Since you have put forward no arguments. I thought I could help you out by giving you pointers on how to change people's minds. Sure illegal immigrants hurt this nation, but so do drunk drivers, and the clap, and fundamentalist christians; you haven't shown me that this is a problem that needs to be dealt with the way you want to deal with it, and for all of those reasons and more, I can honestly say that you would be a horrible politician...

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I never said they weren't. Most illegal immigrants are people who have over stayed their work visas. Period. The border jumping variety that you and NaplesX love to think about constitute a small, miniscule, fraction of the illegal immigrants in this country.

Since you have put forward no arguments. I thought I could help you out by giving you pointers on how to change people's minds. Sure illegal immigrants hurt this nation, but so do drunk drivers, and the clap, and fundamentalist christians; you haven't shown me that this is a problem that needs to be dealt with the way you want to deal with it, and for all of those reasons and more, I can honestly say that you would be a horrible politician...

Actually, I think I would make a horrible politician, because politicians as a whole are a bunch of lying, enabling, sniveling cowards.
I tell the truth, and you can't handle the truth.

[hardeeharhar]

Ok, then.