christian comics

[New]

We did a thread a while ago where someone posted a lot of chritian cartoons about people going to hell.

Anyone know where I can find these?

[segovius]

Originally posted by New
We did a thread a while ago where someone posted a lot of chritian cartoons about people going to hell.

Anyone know where I can find these?

www.chick.com (http://www.chick.com/)

[shetline]

Originally posted by New
We did a thread a while ago where someone posted a lot of chritian cartoons about people going to hell.

Anyone know where I can find these?
Why bother to start this thread? Someone might say something that could be construed as being rude to Christianity, and the thread will get locked.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Chick ROCKS!

http://www.chick.com/tractimages64743/0042/0042_05.gif

[New]

Originally posted by shetline
Why bother to start this thread? Someone might say something that could be construed as being rude to Christianity, and the thread will get locked.

I need them for a project at work. :)

So it doesn't really matter if it gets locked. But while u mention it, I read yesterday about the japanese anime series Samurai Camploo, that just started airing in the US.

It's full of blood, violence and some nudity. But the only things that are censored are profane references to God, which is pretty funny since all references to budha and the shinto faith are left unaltered...

[New]

evolution (http://www.chick.com/catalog/posters/lrgposter.asp)

posted the picture first, but it was a bit big...

[segovius]

Originally posted by shetline
Why bother to start this thread? Someone might say something that could be construed as being rude to Christianity, and the thread will get locked.

Let's give it a test with some truth.

On that Chick site there is some time devoted to racist lies about Islam - in fact the source of these lies, a book called The Islamic Invasion is the main source of where Xian Islamophobes get their info.

This is important, not because I have an Islamic hobby horse but because they are deliberate and provable lies - that is to say, we are deling with a sect and alleged subset of Christianity (ie not the whole faith) that is founded on lies and deceit.

Here are some examples from this page (http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/allah.asp)

Various archeological digs in Arabia and throughout the Middle East have uncovered the answer: Islam is a modern version of the ancient fertility religion of the moon god. Once this is grasped, the rise and history of Islam becomes clear.

A deliberate lie or perhaps just ignorance - no academic department in archaeology or Islamic studies that I am aware of would support this view.

Muhammad's wart against the Meccans was a war against polytheism in essence and of course his first act on taking Mecca was to destroy all idols within the city.

Anthropologists have recorded how the Arabs destroyed the cultural heritage of any nation which fell under their sword.

Who were these Arabs? They obviously were not Christians because they destroyed churches and murdered priests wherever they went. Obviously, they were not Jews because they persecuted Jews without pity.

Anthropologists have not recorded this and if they did they would be drummed out of their departments for woeful ignorance of history.

How is the Jewish cultural heritage under Islam intact for 800 years -0 true after the fall of the Spanish Caliphate it was destroyed by the mass slaughter of Jews and Muslims by the Christians but it was there.

But let's just look at the stupidity of this particular lie. Here are countries under Islam rule for 1500 years and their requisite cultural traditions:

Iraq: Christian monasteries, Buddhist shrines - to this day

Egypt, Christian Coptic religion intact to this day - pyramids, Pharaonic sites intact

Iran: Persepolis Sasanian city - extant, Zoroastrian sites and religion intact, Jewish settlements intact.

Syria: all Christian monuments intact and available for visit. I have personally visited Ananais' house where Paul hid (now a Church), Christian monastery at Malalula (2000 years old and functioning still) Jewish synagogue at Dura Europos.

Spain: Islamic period synagogue extant at Toledo - perhaps greatest example. Unfortunately many Islamic Jewish sites here destroyed by the Church.

Afghanistan: Buddhist shrines intact, Jewish and Zoroastrian sites - Bamiyan Buddhas gone but survived 1500 years of Islamic rule until Taleban.

As to persecuting Jews this is a lie as all responsible (ie non Zionist but Orthodox Jewish) sources will attest.

What religion today practices the pagan rites of the moon god? Islam! This explains why the crescent moon is the symbol of Islam. It is placed on top of mosques and minarets and displayed on hats, flags, rugs, amulets and even jewelry. Every time you see the Muslim symbol of a crescent moon, you are seeing the ancient symbol of the moon god.

This is a blatant lie. The crescent symbol was the symbol of the Byzantine Christians and was adopted by Islam relatively late as a symbol of victory when they took Constantinople:

"The crescent and star, ancient Byzantine symbols that became the emblems of Constantinople, were also assumed as the standard of the Ottoman Turks. The crescent surmounted by a cross indicates the origin of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The crescent appears on the flags of various present-day Muslim nations. The emblem is also used in blazonry."

From answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/crescent)

The whole sordid piece ends with a disgracefully patronising and offensive diatribe, hypocritically aimed at a 'muslim friend':

Dear Muslim friend, instead of worshipping a false moon god called Allah, you should worship the God of the Patriarchs, prophets, and apostles. This one true God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Read the New Testament for it is the true Word of God.

Frankly, I'm getting sick of these topics but the are absolutely necessary - this Christian subset of loons is a cancer - and very, very dangerous.

It is dangerous to Muslims, atheists, thinkers (free or otherwise) anyone who professes any religion other than theirs and most particularly - dangerous to the true message of Christ and real Christians everywhere.

We need to stop these lunatics like we need to stop all racists/bigots and like someone should have stopped the Inquisition. They ARE insane, they ARE filled with hate and they DO have big plans with the power to carry them out.

They are a threat to us all, whatever you believe or don't.

[segovius]

Originally posted by New
evolution (http://www.chick.com/catalog/posters/lrgposter.asp)

posted the picture first, but it was a bit big...

What's the Stegosaurus on the left doing to Heidleberg Man's bottom ????? :wow:

I thought this was Christian comic :( :no:

[OBJRA10]

Originally posted by segovius
Frankly, I'm getting sick of these topics but the are absolutely necessary - this Christian subset of loons is a cancer - and very, very dangerous.

It is dangerous to Muslims, atheists, thinkers (free or otherwise) anyone who professes any religion other than theirs and most particularly - dangerous to the true message of Christ and real Christians everywhere.

We need to stop these lunatics like we need to stop all racists/bigots and like someone should have stopped the Inquisition. They ARE insane, they ARE filled with hate and they DO have big plans with the power to carry them out.

They are a threat to us all, whatever you believe or don't.

1. It represents a trace percentage of the population of the set of people who would call themselves Christian.

2. You are correct, they are idiots if in fact they believe what you posted. (I didn't read it, but I'll stipulate that they are loons!)

3. They are however, no more "dangerous" then the small population of radicals associated with almost every belief system in the world including: athiest, muslim, environmentalist, jew, etc...

[New]

Originally posted by OBJRA10
1. It represents a trace percentage of the population of the set of people who would call themselves Christian.

2. You are correct, they are idiots if in fact they believe what you posted. (I didn't read it, but I'll stipulate that they are loons!)

3. They are however, no more "dangerous" then the small population of radicals associated with almost every belief system in the world including: athiest, muslim, environmentalist, jew, etc...

I agree with this. It is important to recognize that these extreemist do in no way represent all of their religion, be it christian or muslim, or any other. But just like one could argue that fundamentalism has been on the rize in many muslim nations the last decades, it seems to be maybe even more the case in the US.

The most significant difference between the US and the Muslim world being that while most muslim countries are experienceing "fundamentalist resistance" as they are becoming more, in lack of better words, "open" or "liberal", the US is on the other hand, moving away from previous liberal ideas, and to a less liberal and more "christian value" based society.

Banning of un-plolitical correct christian-references in adult comics is a clear example of this.

[New]

BTW, those were not the comics I was looking for. The comics in question were black and white and dealth with people going to hell for all kinds of silly things...

[segovius]

Originally posted by New
BTW, those were not the comics I was looking for. The comics in question were black and white and dealth with people going to hell for all kinds of silly things...

Was it the notorious This Was Your Life (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp) ?

http://www.chick.com/tractimages64743/0001/0001_12.gif

Btw, I notice Chick has some QT movies online now (God help us) This still from one of them doesn't look like very angelic or loving behaviour though - seems even the sort of thing one might get sent to hell for - someone should do a background check on that Angel - wasn't it traditionally demons that did that sort of thing ?

This is a key pointer to the fundie mentality - usually such punishments are the province of the demonic hordes - in fundie Xianity it's God's privilege (pleasure ?).

http://www.chick.com/catalog/videos/images/fire.gif

[Harald]

Originally posted by New
BTW, those were not the comics I was looking for. The comics in question were black and white and dealth with people going to hell for all kinds of silly things...

I think I have hard copies of just about all of them.

[New]

Thanks! that was exactly what I was looking for.

Not very organized, that site is...

[segovius]

Originally posted by New
Thanks! that was exactly what I was looking for.

Not very organized, that site is...

Here is the full unbelievable list of links to their rather lame output. (http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp)

Seriously, some of that stuff would be illegal in Europe under race and incitement to hate laws.

[segovius]

This tract on AIDS (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0090/0090_01.asp) is also a disgraceful and highly offensive load of lies

http://www.chick.com/tractimages64743/0090/0090_12.gif

If you look at that list of links you find anti-Buddhist propaganda, lies about AIDS, highly offensive homophobic material, noxious pro-Israel ridiculousness and the usual ubiquitous 'Muslims worship demons' crap.

Seriously, how is this stuff allowed ? Aren't there laws against this sort of filth in the US ?

http://www.chick.com/tractimages64743/0084/0084_05.gif

[AWILL]

It is pretty amazing that everyone seems to be so offended because of some cartoon drawings, but no one seemed to be offended and complain when innocent poeple are being murdered and having it posted on the internet. Those radicals believe in what they are doing just as much as the Christian, but for some reason the Christians are characterized as narrow minded and "loons". The Islamic radicals are just as narrow minded!! If it is ok for them to publicize what they believe in it should be just as ok for the Christians. Last time I checked I never heard of any Christians killing innocent people. Sounds like a narrow minded double standard.

[New]

Originally posted by AWILL
Last time I checked I never heard of any Christians killing innocent people. Sounds like a narrow minded double standard.

We all agree that fundamentalist muslims are "loons", don't worry.

But You must have heard about McVeigh? IRA or the Ulster Freedomfighter? The people attacking doctors or clinics that perform abortion?

or at the very least, The inquisition?

[New]

oh, I just remember Sabra and Shatila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_Massacre). You can always blame that one on Israel, but it was still commited by christians...

And the hutu's of Rwanda. One million inocent dead at the hands of christians right there...

[segovius]

Originally posted by AWILL
ILast time I checked I never heard of any Christians killing innocent people. Sounds like a narrow minded double standard.

No - sounds more like bad checking due to a narrow-minded refusal to look at the real facts.

Try the Lord's Resistance Army (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/UNHCR/dfad5f7c1a2cf90009275091e8ece173.htm)

Two months after a peace agreement was signed, incursions by the notorious Lord's Resistance Army from northern Uganda finally turned 28-year-old Yusuf, his wife and their four children into refugees.

"We had no choice but to flee here," Yusuf said in a squalid makeshift refugee reception centre in northern Uganda. "On that dreadful night (of March 14), the women in my village were cooking and the rebels came with pangas (long knives). They snatched what they could carry and set our tukuls (traditional dome-shaped shelters) on fire." He feels lucky to be alive: "They came with the intention of completely killing us."

Yusuf is speaking his native Madi language, but no interpreter is needed for his hand gestures. Without any prompting, he graphically illustrates the horrific tale of what he saw – vicious knife blows to the back of the head, the forehead, neck, across the eyes, slicing off the ears of his neighbours. He says he saw 12 people hacked to death and some of their bodies burned.

The UN refugee agency has expressed concern that LRA attacks have contributed to the displacement of more than 4,000 South Sudanese from their country since the beginning of this year,

The Lord's Resistance Army is a force that says it seeks to overthrow the Ugandan government and install a regime based on the biblical Ten Commandments. Yet its trademark methods are kidnapping children to press them into service as soldiers and sex slaves.

They have forced 1.6 million Ugandans from their homes, and over the years frequently attacked settlements of Sudanese refugees inside Uganda. Their incursions into the Nimule area of South Sudan are increasing in frequency and brutality....three small children were shot to death in a recent raid on a village.

You probably won't read all that so I will point out the important bit:

The Lord's Resistance Army is a force that says it seeks to overthrow the Ugandan government and install a regime based on the biblical Ten Commandments. Yet its trademark methods are kidnapping children to press them into service as soldiers and sex slaves.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by AWILL
It is pretty amazing that everyone seems to be so offended because of some cartoon drawings, but no one seemed to be offended and complain when innocent poeple are being murdered and having it posted on the internet. Those radicals believe in what they are doing just as much as the Christian, but for some reason the Christians are characterized as narrow minded and "loons".
A classic "X is hard to defend... everybody: look at Y!" argument. But a really, really bad one.

Why anyone would want to defend these cartoons by comparing them to videos of people being executed by fanatics is beyond me. Looks like the worst defence you could have chosen. But OK, you started it.

Originally posted by AWILL
Last time I checked I never heard of any Christians killing innocent people. Sounds like a narrow minded double standard.

I'm George Bush and God made me do this. (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/)

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Back on topic, does anyone else find these cartoons curiously addictive?

I can't stop reading them.

[segovius]

Also see the historical context - a random example would be this eye witness account of the first crusade, by Raymond of Aguiles (1099):

Wonderful sights were to be seen. Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shoot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services are normally chanted ... in the temple and the porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. Indeed it was a just and splendid judgement of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies.

From The Crusades (http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/crusades.html#1crusade).

[segovius]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Back on topic, does anyone else find these cartoons curiously addictive?

I can't stop reading them.

What's your fave so far ?

[New]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Back on topic, does anyone else find these cartoons curiously addictive?

I can't stop reading them.

Have you seen the movies (http://www.chick.com/catalog/videos/LOTW.asp#clips)?

[segovius]

"Satan has millions of followers worshipping Buddha" :lol:

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by segovius
What's your fave so far ?
Oh, so many to choose from.

That crazy guy! (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0090/0090_01.asp) has something. A woman's diagnosed with AIDS (that'll teach her.) The doctor, instead of giving her a few words of sympathy or referring her to counselling, sees an opportunity to tell her about Jesus and His gift of eternal life. "OK, so you're going to die. You don't want to burn in Hell for all eternity do you?"

Priceless.

What's yours?

:)

[Hassan i Sabbah]

I have a new favourite!The Holocaust! (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0054/0054_01.asp)

Doesn't get much more offensive.

:)

[segovius]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Oh, so many to choose from.

That crazy guy! (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0090/0090_01.asp) has something. A woman's diagnosed with AIDS (that'll teach her.) The doctor, instead of giving her a few words of sympathy or referring her to counselling, sees an opportunity to tell her about Jesus and His gift of eternal life.

Priceless.

What's yours?

:)

As you say - so many to choose. I'm inclining slightly towards Love The Jewish People (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp) which is a propaganda tour de force.

Apparently the famines in Africa are a curse on people who broke off diplomatic relations with Israel.

http://www.chick.com/tractimages64743/1000/1000_09.gif

Some of the colour big comics are utter classics too - check out
Spellbound (http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/0110.asp) on demonic rock music - always a winner !

http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/images/110b.jpg

[e1618978]

someone should do a background check on that Angel - wasn't it traditionally demons that did that sort of thing ?

Angels and demons are the same thing. They were all angels to start out with, just on different sides in the war of God vs Satan (so the angels that were cast out were renamed as demons).

I liked this account:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312870493/qid=1117456147/sr=8-3/ref=pd_csp_3/002-0266034-9060843?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[segovius]

Originally posted by e1618978
Angels and demons are the same thing. They were all angels to start out with, just on different sides in the war of God vs Satan (so the angels that were cast out were renamed as demons).

I liked this account:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312870493/qid=1117456147/sr=8-3/ref=pd_csp_3/002-0266034-9060843?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

So they're all on the payroll then ? Kind of makes sense.

The 'Controversial' movie on the site says God has given Satan 'permisison' to run amok and cause people to go to hell so maybe they're all on the same side ?

Maybe it's all a big con and Satan is planning to get your soul by means of Christianity :wow:

I can see a comic in this one - I'll write it, can anybody draw ? This could be massive.....

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by New
Have you seen the movies (http://www.chick.com/catalog/videos/LOTW.asp#clips)?
Oh yes. :)

[Stoo]

or at the very least, The inquisition?

I can't decide whether or not I expected that...

[e1618978]

Originally posted by segovius
So they're all on the payroll then ? Kind of makes sense.

The 'Controversial' movie on the site says God has given Satan 'permisison' to run amok and cause people to go to hell so maybe they're all on the same side ?

Maybe it's all a big con and Satan is planning to get your soul by means of Christianity :wow:

I can see a comic in this one - I'll write it, can anybody draw ? This could be massive.....

I don't see how anyone can be a christian fundie - if the bible is literally true, then god is a passive agressive sadist (i.e. Catbert).

[Outsider]

Here's my favorite so far: Evolution (http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/0106.asp)

[Outsider]

http://www.chick.com/tractimages64743/0030/0030_02.gif
Is this what fundies think the 'outside' world is like? :lol:

[segovius]

Originally posted by Outsider
http://www.chick.com/tractimages64743/0030/0030_02.gif
Is this what fundies think the 'outside' world is like? :lol:

Probably is what it would be like if the fundies weren't so scared of hell - they're merely judging by their own standards......

[Anders]

Sorry guys I do not follow you here. This kind of humour may be all right in first year in college when trying to impress you fellow student by analyzing and putting down obvious lying and misguided statements. But its a bit boring when it is used as a strawman for everybody in a certain group on a public board.

The comics obviously use arguments with holes as big as planets but it does not constitute the collective beliefs of all fundamentals.

[New]

Originally posted by Anders
Sorry guys I do not follow you here. This kind of humour may be all right in first year in college when trying to impress you fellow student by analyzing and putting down obvious lying and misguided statements. But its a bit boring when it is used as a strawman for everybody in a certain group on a public board.

The comics obviously use arguments with holes as big as planets but it does not constitute the collective beliefs of all fundamentals.

ah, stop being such a boring sociology-arse.. ;)

[OBJRA10]

New,

Did you find what you were looking for?

Is there anyone who does not agree that these comics come from a segment of a population that in no way is representative of the overwhelming majority of everyday-normal people who call themselves "christian?"

Is there anyone who would disagree that these people are "loons?" (since we're using that word)

[giant]

Originally posted by OBJRA10
Is there anyone who does not agree that these comics come from a segment of a population that in no way is representative of the overwhelming majority of everyday-normal people who call themselves "christian?"
How could we know? 1) [personal anecdote] I know a number of people who get chick comics sent to their workplaces by individuals (ie, not bulk mail). 2) [forum anecdote] We have a number of people who have defended and posted in favor of chick comics here in PO, as is the case across the internet. 3) [poll] 45% of americans (http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=14107) believe man was created within the past 10K years, 1/3 believe the bible should be read literally and ~75% identify themselves as christian.

[New]

Originally posted by OBJRA10
New,

Did you find what you were looking for?

Is there anyone who does not agree that these comics come from a segment of a population that in no way is representative of the overwhelming majority of everyday-normal people who call themselves "christian?"

Is there anyone who would disagree that these people are "loons?" (since we're using that word)

Yes I found what I was looking for, and had a very good time as well. :)

[segovius]

Originally posted by Anders
Sorry guys I do not follow you here. This kind of humour may be all right in first year in college when trying to impress you fellow student by analyzing and putting down obvious lying and misguided statements. But its a bit boring when it is used as a strawman for everybody in a certain group on a public board.

The comics obviously use arguments with holes as big as planets but it does not constitute the collective beliefs of all fundamentals.

I disagree.

Imo, it is not humour. These guys are representative of mainstream thought and as such represent a very serious danger to independent thought in the present climate.

As an example - I will use Islam because that is my area of knowledge, others could use evolution or Buddhism perhaps as an equivalent - the lies that they propagate are the same lies used as anti-~Islam arguments every time I hear one. Every time. Without fail.

On this very board recently Islamophobes were spouting about how Muslims want an 'Islam state' and how they historically oppressed and murdered Jews under their rule - both lies traceable to these comics. And there are many others, word for word.

There are two possibilities: this disinfo stems from these comics or the comics are a subset of a greater source of disinfo. Either way it is part of a plan - a plan to spread lies for a specific agenda.

I'm sure similar lies and exact 'memes' can be pointed out by those with knowledge of evolution.

Rational thinkers may laugh but they won't be laughing when the book-burning starts - and it will. I have witnessed it myself on several occasions and there is even a pic in this thread explicitly exhorting burning of records.

This is fascism folks.

It would be funny if they were a minority and indeed, it was funny for the last twenty tears or so.

Look around you at the world and the place of this kind of attitude in it. It's time to stop laughing.

[e1618978]

These comics seem to match the quality of information that I was getting from one of my ex-co-workers. He was part of a local baptist church, and he and another guy I knew are totally convinced that gay men caused the fall of the roman empire.

Not only that, they were trying to justify oppression of gays using that "fact".

IMHO Religious people, for the most part, are crazy freaks. Some seem a little less crazy than others, but a good 20-30% of them are of the "God told me to skin you alive" variety.

[groverat]

I wouldn't call this representative of mainstream Christian thought nor would I say it should be dismissed as a very small segment. I would characterize it as a significant minority.

The only difference, really, between these people and Islamist terrorists is that these people have access to the most powerful military the world has ever known.

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
These guys are representative of mainstream thought and as such represent a very serious danger to independent thought in the present climate.
You know, In a way, Christians need to be raked over the coals for communicating in comic book form.

On the other hand, you, segovious are meticulous in separating any deleterious elements that exist in Islam to the "extremist" and more importantly not representative of Islam. It would be resonable to expect you to extend the same logic to another philosophy, but, oddly enough, you don't. When one philosophy becomes somewhat insensate, they communicate in comic books and roadside hiaku, while the other engages in honor killings.

How do you figure, that in the Protestant west, that any thought is going have the kibosh put on it? Where is the blueprint for this? Do we have to go back 300 years to find your imagined boogyman paradigm -- can we really crowbar a 17th century social vignette into an acceptable level of paranoia?

This thread, once agian, is nothing more than your continued cycling between bigotry-for-entertainment at the expense of Christians, and shilling for a very primitve religion with extremely violent tendencies. It's the 21st century and the "violent west" is still trying to bring democracy to the ME, and you're shilling conspiracy threories and pining away over roadsigns and comic books. Who is supposed to take this seriously?

You should have taken the weekend off too, segovious.

[e1618978]

On the other hand, you, segovious are meticulous in separating any deleterious elements that exist in Islam to the "extremist" and more importantly not representative of Islam. It would be resonable to expect you to extend the same logic to another philosophy, but, oddly enough, you don't.

I think that you have a valid point, but it can also be turned around.

There have been plenty of calls from Christians, asking for moderate Muslums to denounce the extremeists. How come moderate christians are not denouncing the hate and bad data coming out of the fundamentalist christians in the US (as represented in these comics)?

Did you find the messages in the comics compelling? Some of the stuff seems similar to things I have heard even moderate Christians say, and it turns my stomach.

[giant]

Amazing, dmz. In that post you do the very thing for which you condemn segovious.

[dmz]

Originally posted by e1618978
I think that you have a valid point, but it can also be turned around.

There have been plenty of calls from Christians, asking for moderate Muslums to denounce the extremeists. How come moderate christians are not denouncing the hate and bad data coming out of the fundamentalist christians in the US (as represented in these comics)?

Did you find the messages in the comics compelling? Some of the stuff seems similar to things I have heard even moderate Christians say, and it turns my stomach.

No, there's no turning it around, some of the comics linked to are upwards of 30 years old -- and in any event they were used/linked to not because the various posters didn't know they existed, but for their shock value. "I'm not going to tell mom you broke the vase, I'm going to ask her if she knows about it."

The 'poisoning the well' rhetorical tool was used also -- dated/fringe material was used to introduce some more recent material, then it was by association linked to the idea of 6000 year-old-Earth, and then before you know it, any Christian who thinks homosexuality shouldn't have been removed from the DSM is huddled in a basement corner with a Bible, Uzi and roaring case Sociopathic guilt.

I read the hate speech here on AI, and I get pictures of Hilter at the Nazi Party Nuremberg Rally. 'Yes! we are that great! Yes! the Jews are really that bad!'

Denoucement/nondenouncement is irrelevant -- we can sit around and denounce things untill the cows come home, it doesn't make any difference -- it just a tool, and not a very good one. For those of you in your early 20s with a belly full of fire and agnst, be carefull of these slight-of-hand techniques. The worn-out 'when did you stop beating your wife' questions smell just as bad under any other name or technique.

It is possible to understand each other and why we disagree, but when one side comes to the table without an intellectual footing, or comes with prejudice of the other side and is not willing to listen, or brings a can of spraypaint instead of something to take notes on -- then this whole website can becomes a very sly propaganda organ -- and does when the moderating influences approve of cheap rhetorical devices, and hate speech that would flunk you out of any freshman level speech class.


More tomorrow.

[giant]

Originally posted by dmz
This thread, once agian, is nothing more than your continued cycling between bigotry-for-entertainment at the expense of Christians, and shilling for a very primitve religion with extremely violent tendencies.
Don't you see the irony of the first part of this sentence followed by the second?

[dmz]

Originally posted by giant
Don't you see the irony of the first part of this sentence followed by the second?
No, that was a statement of fact, Islam at large, has issues with drifting towards dictitorial government/authority structures and it has violent tendencies.

These are facts. In fact, both of these facts significantly impact the geopolitical landscape -- right or wrong -- from Darfur to Chechnya, to ground zero.

But you have to note I don't make culturally insensitive statements like:
I don't see how anyone can be a christian fundie - if the bible is literally true, then god is a passive agressive sadist (i.e. Catbert).
Probably is what it would be like if the fundies weren't so scared of hell - they're merely judging by their own standards......
Yes I found what I was looking for, and had a very good time as well.
Is this what fundies think the 'outside' world is like?
Oh yes. :)
What's your fave so far ?
But there is no glee --- no joy -- no revelling in the any philosophy's apparent shortcomings.

....and quite frankly, I've learned some things from Segovius, he's caused me to go back and be very carful to look at the factions and look at things in a more holistic light. It's been a good thing. But at the same time, I don't feel he's honest about the prickliness of Islam today, or even it's troubled history.

So, this nonsense of digging up the worst noisemakers Christianity has to offer and then ignoring the realities that Protestantism, by it's very nature is open to "diverse opinions", and has more factions than can be accounted for, AND doing it out of spite is too much.

And coming from segovious it is disingenous, bigoted, mean spirited, and hypocritical.

I HAVE to work --I'm wizzing away my day.

[giant]

You're feigning outrage at segovious' comments while making bigoted statements against islam yourself.

Also, as noted before, you don't have a monopoly on christianity. Stop acting like every discussion that critiques primarily political elements of moden thought in some [possibly dominant] christian sects are full-blown condemnations of christianity itself.

It's particularly ironic that I have to say that in light of your unmistakable full-blown condemnation of islam.

[segovius]

Originally posted by dmz
No, that was a statement of fact, Islam at large, has issues with drifting towards dictitorial government/authority structures and it has violent tendencies..

Well, you see the thing is that I accept the teaching of Christ but believe it to have been perverted by the Church - as you know I have said this many times.

The Chick comics and other fundie excesses are merely supporting arguments for this corruption, so to prove I am anti-Christian you will either have to find where I have denied Christ's actual teachings such as forgiveness, peace and love - or else prove that Christ really was aiming at building a following that could produce such offenses as we see illustrated in this thread.

Fortunately, you can do neither.

In arguments I never decry Christ or his teaching and you will not be able to find anywhere I have (so don't bother :D ).

Nor have I resorted to lies along the lines of 'Christians worship a demon' or 'Christianity is an evil religion' - all of which ar efamiliar gambits from our resident Islamophobes.

The uncomfortable fact for fundies is that their pet-hate Islam actually accepts Christianity and other religions - as do most sophisticated world religions today. It is fundamentalist Christianity that is intolerant. Intolerant against Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, gays, whoever.

I refuse to believe that this intolerance was what Jesus intended. You obviously don't have such a problem.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

"What's your fave?" was my quote.

These comics are hateful and I'm allowed, if not obliged, to take the piss out of them.

What's more I can take the piss with impunity, I reckon. My target isn't Christianity, it's the minority of Christians who think these comics are defensible. This minority presumes to speak for all Christians, because that's what fundamentalists do. While I'm at it, I note that you've chosen not to criticise these cartoons.

In one of them, an old Jewish man is converted, desiring to escape the lake of fire, soon after speaking about the gas chambers and the ovens. Chick closes this cartoon with the old man embracing Jesus with joy, but he leaves out the next frame, in which the old Jewish man realises that all his family, friends and people, having been gassed and burnt by the Nazis, are now burning again, and for all eternity, in the Lake of Fire. The look on his face.

This comic is so tasteless it's actually inhumane. I like people, and so I'm sort of required to detest it.

[e1618978]

it's the minority of Christians who think these comics are defensible.

I don't think it is a minority. Maybe it is a minority that believe every single bit of trash in the comics, but the majority pick and choose little bits of garbage here and there (weather they get it from the comics or elsewhere).

[Anders]

Do anyone remember when Sammi used Irvings homepage as evidence?:lol: The libs are such losers they don´t even know who they agree with...

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Anders
Do anyone remember when Sammi used Irvines homepage as evidence?:lol: The libs are such losers they don´t even know who they agree with...

Huh? If you are trying to disagree with me, I am not a 'lib', and I also don't understand your post.

[Anders]

Originally posted by e1618978
I am not a 'lib', and I also don't understand your post.

Then it was probably not directed at you :)

[OBJRA10]

Originally posted by e1618978
I don't think it is a minority. Maybe it is a minority that believe every single bit of trash in the comics, but the majority pick and choose little bits of garbage here and there (weather they get it from the comics or elsewhere).

I probably know several thousand people who would call themselves "Christian." I do not know of one that would consider these comics "defensible."

On what do you base your position that "I don't think it is a minority?"

[giant]

Originally posted by OBJRA10
On what do you base your position that "I don't think it is a minority?"
I'm not going to answer for him, but I already pointed out how there is evidence that they are not
Originally posted by giant
How could we know? 1) [personal anecdote] I know a number of people who get chick comics sent to their workplaces by individuals (ie, not bulk mail). 2) [forum anecdote] We have a number of people who have defended and posted in favor of chick comics here in PO, as is the case across the internet. 3) [poll] 45% of americans (http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=14107) believe man was created within the past 10K years, 1/3 believe the bible should be read literally and ~75% identify themselves as christian.
Just going by this poll it seems that a majority agree with at least one of the biggest Chick views. Tack on views toward gays and you probably have the majority of christians agreeing with the majority of views expressed in chick comics. We also have a huge number of bigoted statements against islam on this board and in this thread, reports of anti-semitism and other religious harrassment coming from evangelicals at the air force academy, etc...

Fundamentalist christians don't speak for christianity as a whole, but there seem to be many more of them in the US than is obvious.

[OBJRA10]

Originally posted by giant
I'm not going to answer for him, but I already pointed out how there is evidence that they are not

Just going by this poll it seems that a majority agree with at least one of the biggest Chick views. Tack on views toward gays and you probably have the majority of christians agreeing with the points made in the majority of chick comics. We also have a huge number of bigoted statements against islam on this board and in this thread, reports of anti-semitism and other religious harrassment coming from evangelicals at the air force academy, etc...

So, it would be your position that at least half of all people that call themselves Christian would fit that category? Based on two anecedotal pieces of evidence?

[giant]

Originally posted by OBJRA10
So, it would be your position that at least half of all people that call themselves Christian would fit that category? Based on two anecedotal pieces of evidence?
Apparently you hit reply without reading the whole post.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by OBJRA10
I probably know several thousand people who would call themselves "Christian." I do not know of one that would consider these comics "defensible."

On what do you base your position that "I don't think it is a minority?"

What giant said 8-)

Your thousands of christians would probably find something in the comics to agree with, even though they found other things there that made them uncomfortable.

[OBJRA10]

Originally posted by giant
Apparently you hit reply without reading the whole post.

nope, I read it all... and I reject your extrapolation of what you believe to be "evidence" from some sort of fringe group to a faith population as a whole.

Further, when did the word "fundamentalist" get such a negative connotation? Doesn't it just mean someone who practices the "fundamentals" of something? When applied to Christianity, wouldn't that be a good thing?

I think the groups you describe would be better described as "extremist," "fringe," or "distorted." I reject that they in any way represent a faith population as a whole, or any significant segment of that population. I believe that to suggest otherwise is to attempt to "spin" the rhetoric to fit a pre-determined, biased perspective.

[OBJRA10]

Originally posted by e1618978
What giant said 8-)

Your thousands of christians would probably find something in the comics to agree with, even though they found other things there that made them uncomfortable.

They might, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't find the comics on balance, deplorable, disgusting, and void of any value.

[giant]

Originally posted by OBJRA10
nope, I read it all...
Then why would you say, "Based on two anecedotal pieces of evidence?" when there's a whole lot more there?
and I reject
You also apparently reject facts that are inconvenient to your argument. Let me know when you are ready to have a discussion without lopping off parts of posts and ignoring inconvenient facts.
I reject your extrapolation of what you believe to be "evidence" from some sort of fringe group to a faith population as a whole.
Go back and read my posts on the subject and rethink your false claim about what I 'believe' and 'extrapolat[e].' Focus hard on statements and words such as "How could we know?," "possibly dominant," "there is evidence" and "there seem," all of which indicate that I don't know the extent and only have this evidence to go by.

Last but not least, read this line again: "Fundamentalist christians don't speak for christianity as a whole." In case you missed it, that's the exact opposite of what you falsely claim I said.
I think the groups you describe would be better described as "extremist," "fringe," or "distorted."
45% of americans, and presumably 60% of christians (who make up 75% of the US population), apparently believe that man was created in his present form within the past 10K years. That's a majority of christians.

On top of that, 44% of american christians appear to be biblical literalists. That's close to half. Then consider the gray area between the biblical literalists at 44% and the 'man is only 10K years old' 60%.

I've met only a handful of these people, and if you know "several thousand people who would call themselves 'Christian'" then I certainly do, too, but evidence indicates they are out there. I welcome a chance to explore this issue, but you simply ignoring facts and misrepresenting posts only stalls it.
Further, when did the word "fundamentalist" get such a negative connotation?
When it's opposed to rational thought and tolerance and begins to get imposed on others who don't agree. Even if it's a majority it results in the tyranny of a religious majority.

Before you respond, remember not to resort to distorting my post by saying things like "Based on two anecedotal pieces of evidence?" or claiming I hold a position that I don't.

[giant]

Originally posted by OBJRA10
I reject that they in any way represent a faith population as a whole
Also, how many times does it need to be pointed out that the only people claiming that christians are a homogeneous group are those on this board who want to spread the false notion that christians are victims of an atheist liberal attack.

[BRussell]

Does anyone else get the feeling that OBJRA was/is trying to set this thread up for the lock?

[OBJRA10]

Originally posted by giant
45% of americans, and presumably 60% of christians (who make up 75% of the US population), apparently believe that man was created in his present form within the past 10K years. That's a majority of christians.

On top of that, 44% of american christians appear to be biblical literalists. That's close to half. Then consider the gray area between the biblical literalists at 44% and the 'man is only 10K years old' 60%.

I suppose this is where we disagree. You seem to imply that the fact that people believe a) that the world was created within the last 10K years and b) that the bible should be interpreted "literally" (whatever that means), places them within the same subsection of people as those who generate these "comics."

That would be the premise that I "reject." I do not think similar beliefs in one area dictate similar belief structures across the board.


Does anyone else get the feeling that OBJRA was/is trying to set this thread up for the lock?

I don't get that feeling... why would you?

[giant]

Disagree all you want, but the difference here is that I provided a list of facts, evidence and anecdotes that point in a direction and you've provided nothing beyond your unsubstantiated opinions littered with false claims about and distortions of my posts. Why bother posting if you aren't going to say anything other than you 'reject' points, some of which you made up in your imagination and falsely attributed to me?

The reason people like me know that chick comics even exist is because they are everywhere. I even have a few in my home (http://tinypic.com/5l1klx). The fact is that they simply provide arguments for the same things that apparently a majority of christians believe, and numerous christians in this very forums have posted in favor of them.

Chick comics are also hugely popular whether you 'reject' it or not. For instance (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1346/is_5_48/ai_101173128):
With more than 500 million copies of his 142 books in print, including translations in more than 100 languages, Chick is the world's most published living author.
also (http://www.chick.com/information/authors/chick.asp):
Jack Chick has written and published hundreds of illustrated gospel tracts in close to one hundred different languages. Copies of Chick tracts are even displayed in the Smithsonian Institute as an integral part of American culture.

The evidence is mounting and it points in one direction. Considering the apparent popularity of both the comics and the beliefs they are based on, at the very least e1618978 appears to be absolutely right.

[OBJRA10]

you are absolutely right.

[dmz]

Originally posted by giant
The reason people like me know that chick comics even exist is because they are everywhere.
...so are copies of The Anarchist Cookbook. It doesn't mean it's part of anyone's mainstream, or a fixture of the publishing industry.

Your fundie poster child has advocated that:
The Catholic Church keeps "the name of every Protestant church member in the world" in a "big computer" in the Vatican for use in future persecutions.

In the sixth century, Catholic leaders manipulated the Arabian tribesman Mohammed into creating the religion of Islam to use as a weapon against the Jews and to conquer Jerusalem for the pope.

The Jesuits instigated the American Civil War, supporting the Confederate cause and seeking to undermine the Union. When they failed, they arranged the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. Later, they formed the Ku Klux Klan.

"Jesuits worked closely with Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin" to create Communism, and it was "believed that soon . . . Communism would rise up as the new strong daughter of the Vatican." It was Rome that instigated the Bolshevik Revolution and the murder of the czar’s family. The Communist "liberation theology" movement also is a Vatican plot.

The Nazi Holocaust of the 1940s was a Vatican-controlled attempt to exterminate Jews and heretics. Further, "Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco were backed by the Vatican for the purpose of setting up a one-world government to usher in the ‘Millennial Kingdom’ under Pope Pius XII."

The Vatican conspiracy is so extensive that, through the Jesuits, Rome controls the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations, international bankers, the Mafia, the Club of Rome, the Masons, and the New Age movement.

The Jesuits created the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Unity, Christian Science, and other religious groups.

"Pope John Paul II has been a good Communist for many years" and engineered a phony assassination attempt against himself in 1981 to shame Islam into warming relations with the Vatican, since the would-be killer was a Muslim.
giant, I need you to get me the head of ANY any major denomination on record supporting any of these "ideas."

The truth is out there.

[giant]

Originally posted by dmz
fundie poster child
I never said he was a "fundie poster child." All I have said is that the comics are obviously hugely popular and that many of the beliefs contained in them are also widespread and appear to be mainstream.

However, I don't think Chick represents christian values as I know them, but non-creationist christians are apparently becoming the minority.

I'm also not going to name frequent PO posters who have promoted or defended chick in the past, but they are here. I know at least one of them no longer supports the ideas expressed in them, but another defended them just a few months ago.
So are copies of The Anarchist Cookbook.
Not only have I never recieved a single anarchist cookbook in the mail, I've also never been handed one by someone on the street trying to convert me. The anarchist cookbook is popular simply as a staple of teen rebellion and had far less copies printed, apparently less than a half of a percent of the chick publications.

[e1618978]

However, I don't think Chick represents christian values as I know them, but non-creationist christians are apparently becoming the minority.

Pope John Paul II recognized evolution as being "more than a hypothesis", so I am sure that there are plenty of pro-evolution Cathleocs.

[segovius]

Originally posted by dmz
...so are copies of The Anarchist Cookbook. It doesn't mean it's part of anyone's mainstream, or a fixture of the publishing industry.

Your fundie poster child has advocated that:

giant, I need you to get me the head of ANY any major denomination on record supporting any of these "ideas."

The truth is out there.

Two points:

One, many Christians do not feel comfortable expressing their more extreme views when not in the company of their own kind.

I personally have had access at various times to many of the fundie 'big cheeses' and they have felt comfortable enough in my presence to give their true views (on Islam or gays for example) as for some reason they believed me to be one of them. I can assure you it was shocking and chilling in several instances and a major regret is that I didn't have a concealed mic.

I have also seen them switch and dissimulate when confronted by non-believers. They aren't stupid. You won't catch them on the record.

Take yourself for example, your views on Islam are very similar to Chick's in many respects but you won't give full voice to them in your reply to this if I ask you to.

Which brings me to point two:

Many Christians agree with some of the issues but not necessarily all of hem - these they put to the back of their mind and give the benefit of the doubt.

Likewise, a Christian is always supported till proven guilty. I happen to have fundie family members believe it or not and they were very friendly with both Swaggart and Bakker in their pomp and would never hear a word against them - despite the evidence that we all knew even then. They were Christians so they MUST be ok - by definition. And all else was the 'attacks of the devil' which always come the holier someone is.

When I talk to them now I see the exact same process operational with Bush. He is a Christian therefore he is right.

So no-one will condemn Chick for those two reasons: Christian closing ranks by some and actually agreeing with him by the rest.

Meanwhile the cancer spreads.....

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
Two points:

One, many Christians do not feel comfortable expressing their more extreme views when not in the company of their own kind.

I personally have had access at various times to many of the fundie 'big cheeses' and they have felt comfortable enough in my presence to give their true views (on Islam or gays for example) as for some reason they believed me to be one of them. I can assure you it was shocking and chilling in several instances and a major regret is that I didn't have a concealed mic.

I have also seen them switch and dissimulate when confronted by non-believers. They aren't stupid. You won't catch them on the record.

Take yourself for example, your views on Islam are very similar to Chick's in many respects but you won't give full voice to them in your reply to this if I ask you to.

Which brings me to point two:

Many Christians agree with some of the issues but not necessarily all of hem - these they put to the back of their mind and give the benefit of the doubt.

Likewise, a Christian is always supported till proven guilty. I happen to have fundie family members believe it or not and they were very friendly with both Swaggart and Bakker in their pomp and would never hear a word against them - despite the evidence that we all knew even then. They were Christians so they MUST be ok - by definition. And all else was the 'attacks of the devil' which always come the holier someone is.

When I talk to them now I see the exact same process operational with Bush. He is a Christian therefore he is right.

So no-one will condemn Chick for those two reasons: Christian closing ranks by some and actually agreeing with him by the rest.

Meanwhile the cancer spreads.....
I seeeeeeee. So the funides are in danger of sliding down a slippery slope at any minute into the land of "Gosple Noir", where the bad guys are behind every corner, where the Vatican is lurking, God punishes countries for braking ties with Isreal, and rock music lyrics are going to set me off faster then Frank Sinatra at a costume party.

You definitely need to keep reading these comics in steady rotation, otherwise your symptoms might go away.

Enough with the childishness.

[shetline]

Originally posted by dmz
I'll leave it there, somewhere there's an adult converstation in progress.
So, discussion about a group "closing ranks" in the face of criticism of its members, and pointing out how people with extreme beliefs often tailor their messages to their audiences, concealing their extreme views from those they consider outsiders, and pointing out personal anecdotal evidence in support such phenomena... um, I take it these are the things you consider indicative of non-adult conversation?
Originally posted by dmz, in another message in this thread
You know, In a way, Christians need to be raked over the coals for communicating in comic book form.[/B]
So your studied, very adult observation of what's going on in this thread is that we're criticizing the medium of Chick's message? You're not picking up on even an eensie teensie hint that maybe it's the content of Chick's message that we find simplistic, close-minded, offensive, and, to top it all off, laughably boorish and heavy handed?

Perhaps if Chick put his message into the form of rap music or, maybe interpretive dance, the… um… valuable message would come shining through to us comic-haters?

[e1618978]

Likewise, a Christian is always supported till proven guilty. I happen to have fundie family members believe it or not and they were very friendly with both Swaggart and Bakker in their pomp and would never hear a word against them - despite the evidence that we all knew even then. They were Christians so they MUST be ok - by definition. And all else was the 'attacks of the devil' which always come the holier someone is.

I really agree with this - I know of two seperate incedents where sexually abusive fathers got custody of their children because they had the support of their fellow church members.

In one case they told the judge that the mother was a witch because she was in a womens group with my wife, and that was the reason the father got custody.

[dmz]

Originally posted by shetline
So, discussion about a group "closing ranks" in the face of criticism of its members, and pointing out how people with extreme beliefs often tailor their messages to their audiences, concealing their extreme views from those they consider outsiders, and pointing out personal anecdotal evidence in support such phenomena... um, I take it these are the things you consider indicative of non-adult conversation?

First of all, it wasn't/isn't a "discussion" it's was/is a sly smear job of guilt-by-association. And it was good sport until someone spoke up.

You are speaking in very vauge terms, but this in not an abstract topic. Either the Jesuit conspiracy, et al, is supported by the major denominations, or it's not. It's very simple -- and this is where you, and segovious, and anyone else who is willing to chisel have to run to insinuations to make your point.

Shetline, get me the head of any Major denomination, any major Christian periodical, that signs off on these comics -- no, not the basic Gosple message -- I want the good stuff, the Muslim conspiracy, the Catholic conspiracy, the 'God punishing countries for breaking with Israel' conspiracy. Maybe the Klu Klux Klan could help you since, following your pernicious logic, fundies should be closet racists as well.

What absolute Childishness.

Originally posted by shetline
So your studied, very adult observation of what's going on in this thread is that we're criticizing the medium of Chick's message? You're not picking up on even an eensie teensie hint that maybe it's the content of Chick's message that we find simplistic, close-minded, offensive, and, to top it all off, laughably boorish and heavy handed?

I wouldn't try to separate those two issues. A "simplistic" and "laughably boorish" comic in any form seems redudant.

[Fellowship]

Originally posted by dmz
...

You do make a valid observation in your post above dmz and for the most part I agree with you here.

Fellows

[giant]

Originally posted by dmz
First of all, it wasn't/isn't a "discussion" it's was/is a sly smear job of guilt-by-association. And it was good sport until someone spoke up.
You are trying to avoid the fact that most christians do apparently agree with the majority of topics covered chick comics by focusing on the most outrageous and controversial. However, I've run down a list of things that point in a particular direction. Feigning outrage isn't a valid element of an informed exploration of the issue, it's a cop-out. It's particularly unfortunate since I'm sure I'm not the only person who hasn't made up his mind about a number of elements of this issue.

[dmz]

Originally posted by giant
most christians do apparently agree with the majority of topics covered chick comics
Right, and I can agree with a Klansman on the gosple message, QED, I'm at any minute going to go looking fer 'coons to drag behind my Minivan.

Do I need to break out the Venn diagrams? (http://www.venndiagram.com/venn01.html)

[segovius]

Originally posted by dmz
get me the head of any Major denomination, any major Christian periodical, that signs off on these comics -- no, not the basic Gosple message -- I want the good stuff, the Muslim conspiracy, the Catholic conspiracy, the 'God punishing countries for breaking with Israel' conspiracy

We need to know who you consider 'major denominations' and the names of their 'heads'.

Give this info and we'll see what we can do.

Just a few names - two or three.....

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
We need to know who you consider 'major denominations' and the names of their 'heads'.

Give this info and we'll see what we can do.

Just a few names - two or three.....
I'd rather that you just be adult about this, admit you were out of line, that you tried, and are trying, to smear a bunch of good people with a convenient, broad brush.

[segovius]

Originally posted by dmz
I'd rather that you just be adult about this, admit you were out of line, that you tried, and are trying, to smear a bunch of good people with a convenient, broad brush.

I'm sure you would but you can't just back off your ludicrous assertions. Atonement must be made, if you pardon my lapse into a Biblical terminology.

So this is the plan: I'll suggest, you say yes or no - when we get a yes we'll take it from there.

Ok, here we go:

Pat Robertson.

Is he a 'leader', a 'head' or 'representative' of Christianity ?

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
I'm sure you would but you can't just back off your ludicrous assertions. Atonement must be made, if you pardon my lapse into a Biblical terminology.

So this is the plan: I'll suggest, you say yes or no - when we get a yes we'll take it from there.

Ok, here we go:

Pat Robertson.

Is he a 'leader', a 'head' or 'representative' of Christianity?
I apologize segovious, I'm not being clear, Let's do this again:

Get me the head of a major denomination or the name of a major Christian Periodical that supports this 'Gosple Noir', the conspiracies., brow beating etc. -- the whole paranoid shabang.

Edit: just keep it simple -- pick one conspiracy, say the Jesuit conspiracy, and run that up the flagpole. Ask the Catholics where they keep all those names.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by dmz
Edit: just keep it simple -- pick one conspiracy, say the Jesuit conspiracy, and run that up the flagpole. I'm not sure about the Jesuit thing, which is new to me, but Chick spends a whole lot of time on anti-gay and anti-evolution ideas, which I think you'd agree are pretty mainstream, especially within conservative Christianity. Throw in the anti-Muslim stuff, and you've got a whole lot of overlap between his stuff and conservative Christianity.

[segovius]

Originally posted by dmz
I apologize segovious, I'm not being clear, Let's do this again:

Get me the head of a major denomination or the name of a major Christian Periodical that supports this 'Gosple Noir', the conspiracies., brow beating etc. -- the whole paranoid shabang.

Edit: just keep it simple -- pick one conspiracy, say the Jesuit conspiracy, and run that up the flagpole.

I'd love to - raring to go but unfortunately I need to establish what you think is a major denomination, church and leader.

So: Robertson ? Schiller ? Roberts ? Give us some names......

[MarcUK]

segovius why dont you go do something useful, like learn how to model a mosque (I can even help you with this!) or something....ok, - eat dmz first, then go do something useful. :no: :no: :devil: :D :smokey:

[segovius]

Originally posted by MarcUK
segovius why dont you go do something useful, like learn how to model a mosque (I can even help you with this!) or something....ok, - eat dmz first, then go do something useful. :no: :no: :devil: :D :smokey:

:D :lol:

[dmz]

Originally posted by BRussell
I'm not sure about the Jesuit thing, which is new to me, but Chick spends a whole lot of time on anti-gay and anti-evolution ideas, which I think you'd agree are pretty mainstream, especially within conservative Christianity. Throw in the anti-Muslim stuff, and you've got a whole lot of overlap between his stuff and conservative Christianity.
Okay, some remedial logic:

Some cats have fur.
All Blue cats have fur.
All blue cats have a Swastika pattern in their fur.
White cats have fur.

Therefore white cats have a Swastika pattern in their fur. <--- No, this is incorrect.

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
I'd love to - raring to go but unfortunately I need to establish what you think is a major denomination, church and leader.

So: Robertson ? Schiller ? Roberts ? Give us some names......
It was a simple request for a simple answer.

(Maybe the Pentecostals know where the Vatican's "big computer" is -- try them.)

In any event, if you quote Robertson, do I get to quote Al Jazeera?

[segovius]

Originally posted by dmz
It was a simple request for a simple answer.

(Maybe the Pentecostals know where the Vatican's "big computer" is -- try them.)

In any event, if you quote Robertson, do I get to quote Al Jazeera?

Billy Graham ?

[Gilsch]

^^^ Excellent post there Common...er dmz. :lol: Someone had to bring up Nazism. Next up....Clinton and the UN.

Those comic books are more representative of far right religious America than people think. I'd be in denial too. They're ridiculous and embarrassing. America 50(?) years ago.

Don't forget these are the same people the RNC spent millions and millions of dollars to target by mailing them brochures telling them the "Lib'hruls" were gonna ban their Bibles and allow 2 man weddings if they won. The horror!!!

[BRussell]

Originally posted by dmz
Okay, some remedial logic:

Some cats have fur.
All Blue cats have fur.
All blue cats have a Swastika pattern in their fur.
White cats have fur.

Therefore white cats have a Swastika pattern in their fur. <--- No, this is incorrect. Huh? Why don't you just say what you mean rather than using strange allusions to blue cats with swastikas.

I've said that Chick has beliefs A, B, C, & D. Most conservative christians have beliefs A, B, & C. Therefore there's a lot of overlap between conservative Christians and Chick, despite the fact that I'm sure not every Christian holds every specific belief illustrated in Chick's writings.

Can you show me how that's wrong without using blue cat swastika analogies?

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by segovius
Billy Graham ?

hey, i've seen that guy - in Bristol Uk, when I was about 7-8 y/o i think.

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
Billy Graham ?
If Billy Graham knows where the 'big computer' is, then you can quote him.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by BRussell
Can you show me how that's wrong without using blue cat swastika analogies? LMAO. Just keep the blue swastika kitty away from the "big computer".

Instant classic.

[dmz]

Originally posted by BRussell
Huh? Why don't you just say what you mean rather than using strange allusions to blue cats with swastikas.

I've said that Chick has beliefs A, B, C, & D. Most conservative christians have beliefs A, B, & C. Therefore there's a lot of overlap between conservative Christians and Chick, despite the fact that I'm sure not every Christian holds every specific belief illustrated in Chick's writings.

Can you show me how that's wrong without using blue cat swastika analogies?

All Christians believe Jesus is "the way the truth and the light" and all that that implies.
Some Christians forgot the part about "loving one another as I have loved you" & "loving your neighbor as yourself" and "let your yes be yes and your no be no".
Some Christian read "go forth and preach the Gosple" as 'go forth and scare the crap out people'
Some Christians believe that the Jesuits shape the World and that Dick Cheney garrotted their dog.
All fundies are Christian

Therefor all fundies scare the crap out people, believe conspiracy theories, etc.

[segovius]

Ok, since DMZ refuses to tell me, can someone else please inform me of the 'major denominations' in the US and who their leaders are.

I am reasonably familiar with a variety of televangelists but don't know whether these are accepted as 'mainstream' or not - they certainly have mass following.

Are they representative of US Christianity ? If not who is ?

Thanks in advance.

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
Ok, since DMZ refuses to tell me, can someone else please inform me of the 'major denominations' in the US and who their leaders are.

I am reasonably familiar with a variety of televangelists but don't know whether these are accepted as 'mainstream' or not - they certainly have mass following.

Are they representative of US Christianity ? If not who is ?

Thanks in advance.
My dearest segovious, a televangelist or a person with a TV 'ministry' is NOT A Bishop, A statement of the Southern Baptist Convention, etc, etc, etc.

Pick a denomination: Southern Baptist, Luthern, Catholic, Pentecostal, Episcopal, Presbyterian, etc. stop fooling around, I have a secret meeting to attend.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by segovius
Ok, since DMZ refuses to tell me, can someone else please inform me of the 'major denominations' in the US and who their leaders are. You've got to be careful here, because even Pat Robertson doesn't like the major denominations of Christianity:
You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist." -- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991 Everybody hates Presbyterians, and don't get even me started on those fucking Methodists. :mad:

[dmz]

Originally posted by BRussell
You've got to be careful here, because even Pat Robertson doesn't like the major denominations of Christianity:
Everybody hates Presbyterians, and don't get even me started on those fucking Methodists. :mad:
I thought Methodists were Baptists who could read.;)

[segovius]

Originally posted by dmz
My dearest segovious, a televangelist or a person with a TV 'ministry' is NOT A Bishop, A statement of the Southern Baptist Convention, etc, etc, etc.

Pick a denomination: Southern Baptist, Luthern, Catholic, Pentecostal, Episcopal, Presbyterian, etc. stop fooling around, I have a secret meeting to attend.

Ok, we're getting somehwere: lucky dip - Pentecostal.

Now all you need to do is give me the name of the leader so I can consult my voluminous files :D

Jeez, it's like pulling teeth....

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
Ok, we're getting somehwere: lucky dip - Pentecostal.

Now all you need to do is give me the name of the leader so I can consult my voluminous files :D

Jeez, it's like pulling teeth....
...that might not work so well, they're the 'happy denomination' -- they might not get the whole 'Gosple Noir' thing.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by dmz
All Christians believe Jesus is "the way the truth and the light" and all that that implies.
Some Christians forgot the part about "loving one another as I have loved you" & "loving your neighbor as yourself" and "let your yes be yes and your no be no".
Some Christian read "go forth and preach the Gosple" as 'go forth and scare the crap out people'
Some Christians believe that the Jesuits shape the World and that Dick Cheney garrotted their dog.
All fundies are Christian

Therefor all fundies scare the crap out people, believe conspiracy theories, etc.
This isn't even a good syllogism. :)

[segovius]

Originally posted by dmz
...that might not work so well, they're the 'happy denomination' -- they might not get the whole 'Gosple Noir' thing.

Just a name will do....

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
Just a name will do....
I'm sure they have a website.

Here, it's just SCANDALOUS!! (http://www.pctii.org/pccna/art3.html)

[BRussell]

Originally posted by dmz
I'm sure they have a website.

Here, it's just SCANDALOUS!! (http://www.pctii.org/pccna/art3.html) Compare that to Chick's own Statement of Faith (http://www.chick.com/information/general/statementoffaith.asp).

[dmz]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
This isn't even a good syllogism. :)
I'd have to agree with you -- concentrate on the cats.

[segovius]

Originally posted by dmz
I'm sure they have a website.

Here, it's just SCANDALOUS!! (http://www.pctii.org/pccna/art3.html)

Point 8:

We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

That means they are unified with Chick.

That was easy - where's the competition here :(

[segovius]

Ok, let's do the next one.

How about Falwell ?

[dmz]

Originally posted by BRussell
Compare that to Chick's own Statement of Faith (http://www.chick.com/information/general/statementoffaith.asp).
Try comparing them conspiracy theory for conspiracy threory. Go to the section on the Pentecostal's website were they talk about the 'big computer' and the 'vatican's holocaust'.

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
Ok, let's do the next one.

How about Falwell ?
I don't think he knows about the 'big computer' either.

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
That was easy - where's the competition here :(
You'll need to actually pick up the ball for that to start happening.

[dmz]

...maybe the South Baptist stance on the 'Blueprint for the Catholic takeover of America'?

[dmz]

You know, segovious I have to apologize, I shouldn't have humoured you on this -- I started looking at that comic website -- what you're doing here isn't very funny.

Continue to treat Christians as Strerotypes --- hey, after all, it's a whole lot easier than dealing with them as people.

[segovius]

Ooh, ooh - I got another one (http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/122903F.shtml):

Jerry Vines, former head of the Southern Baptist Convention, has described the Prophet Mohammed as a "demon-obsessed paedophile".

Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham and the head of Samaritan's Purse, a big donor to Iraq, has described Islam as a "very evil and wicked religion".

Ok, who's up next, that's the Southern Baptists out of the way - this is fun....

[shetline]

Originally posted by dmz
Continue to treat Christians as Strerotypes --- hey, after all, it's a whole lot easier than dealing with them as people.
I can't think of a more caustic stereotype than dogmatically dividing the world into the Saved and the Unsaved, with only those who believe as yourself being among the saved -- and that, I can fairly say, describes a large number, if not an outright majority, of American Christians.

[dmz]

Originally posted by shetline
I can't think of a more caustic stereotype than dogmatically dividing the world into the Saved and the Unsaved, with only those who believe as yourself being among the saved -- and that, I can fairly say, describes a large number, if not an outright majority, of American Christians.
That was a nonsensical thing to say, shetline.

[dmz]

Originally posted by segovius
Ooh, ooh - I got another one (http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/122903F.shtml):



Ok, who's up next, that's the Southern Baptists out of the way - this is fun....
I have to apologize agian, segovious, you didn't understand my challenge. I'm not being clear -- one more time, in English:

Get me the head of a major denomination or the name of a major Christian Periodical that supports this 'Gosple Noir', the conspiracies., brow beating etc. -- the whole paranoid shabang.

[BRussell]

I recommend Hell House (http://www.hellhousemovie.com/hellhouse/index.html). Fascinating documentary.

[dmz]

Originally posted by BRussell
I recommend Fascinating documentary.
do they find the 'big computer'?

[dmz]

I'd like to draw everyone's attention to something.

A lot of you came to this argument with a lot of preconcieved slurs/libel/slander that you couldn't back up with facts. segovious is finding that out the hard way right now: several hours of searching has yielded him an asinine observation about Pentecostals, and one off-hand remark from someone who no longer speaks for a major denomination.

segovious had preconcieved notions that he "just knew" were right, and it was good fun to slur for a while, but when the chips were down, he came up a little short on the truth. You see, segovious you shouldn't have had to dig for your facts. Even before you made remarks on the order of "the cancer is speading", you should have had reason for making such statements -- you shouldn't have had to go looking for one.

[giant]

Originally posted by dmz
A lot of you came to this argument with a lot of preconcieved slurs/libel/slander
Originally posted by dmz
shilling for a very primitve religion [islam] with extremely violent tendencies.

[dmz]

Originally posted by giant

primitive as in: archaic, persistent, undeveloped, unevolved
Islam is the essentially the same as it was in the 7th century. It had no Reformation. This is a fact.

violent tendencies:
Go to the Voice of the Martyrs website or any other site that covers such things, and check out what it's like TODAY to be a Christain in any Muslim country -- not always a walk in the park.

Look at things like the honor killings in Germany and elsewhere, or the general treatment of women. Look at the tendencies towards dictatorship, look at the hard core elements that have taken over entire countries. These are violent tendencies, they are a presistent, reocurring phenomena in Islam to this day. These are facts and they significantly impact the geopolitical landscape -- right or wrong -- from Darfur to Chechnya, to ground zero.

I've chosen my words very carefully. Did I say something irresponsible, like "the cancer of Islam is spreading" or "Islam is a violent religion", no I did not, nothing even close.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by dmz
I'd like to draw everyone's attention to something.

A lot of you came to this argument with a lot of preconcieved slurs/libel/slander that you couldn't back up with facts. segovious is finding that out the hard way right now: several hours of searching has yielded him an asinine observation about Pentecostals, and one off-hand remark from someone who no longer speaks for a major denomination.

segovious had preconcieved notions that he "just knew" were right, and it was good fun to slur for a while, but when the chips were down, he came up a little short on the truth. You see, segovious you shouldn't have had to dig for your facts. Even before you made remarks on the order of "the cancer is speading", you should have had reason for making such statements -- you shouldn't have had to go looking for one. I'd like to draw your attention to something:

Originally posted by segovius
we are deling with a sect and alleged subset of Christianity (ie not the whole faith) that is founded on lies and deceit.
...
Frankly, I'm getting sick of these topics but the are absolutely necessary - this Christian subset of loons is a cancer - and very, very dangerous. Aside from his atrocious spelling ( :p ), I don't know how you could be any more explicit that he believes - and the rest of us believe - that not all of Chick's views are held by all Christians.

[dmz]

Originally posted by BRussell
I'd like to draw your attention to something:

Aside from his atrocious spelling ( :p ), I don't know how you could be any more explicit that he believes - and the rest of us believe - that not all of Chick's views are held by all Christians.
I don't know BRussell, the cancer bit was just too much.

I get about half a dozen fairly serious Christian periodicals a month/quarter, and I pay attention to maybe that many more -- you can follow the trends in popular Christian thought, whose got the hot book, the latest bioethical dilemma, etc. These comic books just don't register intellectually, there ideas don't register, and the people that surround them don't register, and they never have -- the complaint, the whole thing of bringing the comics up was complete horse hockey -- a wierd little canard, that, after you overlook the acid trip conspiracy theories, is a dark emotional hail mary pass to save souls.

These forums could be so good, we have people talking to each other literally worldwide. But it somehow ends up a pissing contest every damn time. You know, I'm real sorry I look at Islam at large as having functionality issues with the modern world, but a great deal of educated people feel the same way I do -- and I think those issues are apparent. Apparent in a logical sort of way.

The answer for Islam and it proponents SEEMS to be either to deny history or deny the present too, to save face. We've put Christianty under a microscope, but when it's time to starting checking the wow and flutter of Islam -- you're branded an "Islamophobe". So if an idiot puts up a redneck sign in North Carolina, it's a sign the west is coming unravled, BUT if someone wants to know what's up with the honor killings in Germany it' sshhhhhhh!..... HOW DARE YOU, BIGOT!!?

Not good.

In all likihood I need to delete my cookies and stop wasting time here. This whole paradigm examining the electron micrographs of every twitch on the Christian landscape, while whole countries are living in the moral 7th century really gets to be too much.

[shetline]

Originally posted by dmz
You know, I'm real sorry I look at Islam at large as having functionality issues with the modern world...
Funny, I feel that way about fundamentalists brands of Christianity. :)
but a great deal of educated people feel the same way I do -- and I think those issues are apparent. Apparent in a logical sort of way.

The answer for Islam and it proponents SEEMS to be either to deny history or deny the present too, to save face. We've put Christianty under a microscope, but when it's time to starting checking the wow and flutter of Islam -- you're branded an "Islamophobe".
I haven't seen a whole lot of pro-Islam viewpoints expressed here in these forums. I personally have no particular love of Islam, but for that matter I have no special fondness for Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Scientology, Wicca or any form of religion, organized or disorganized. To me, it's all bullshit.

I relate to other people's religious and spiritual beliefs with the attitude that the less likelyhood that their expression of their beliefs is going to impact my freedoms and the freedoms of others, the better.

If I point out problems I have with various brands of Christianity far more often and loudly than I do about problems with Islam it's because Christianity hits closer to home for me and I know more about it. I live in a culture steeped in Christianity. I even grew up Christian. (Or at least Roman Catholic, which, in their delightfully sectarians ways, many Christians might not wish to consider "truly" Christian.) Thankfully, I recovered. ;)

Tell you what: I'll stack my vast wealth of carefully gathered sociological data concerning the attitudes and beliefs of American Christians along side your immense collection of data regarding statistical distributions of extremist views and behaviors among modern practitioners of Islam -- and then we can put both of our portfolios of documentation together into one pile and see if together we have enough to cut up and fill a dozen fortune cookies.

When it comes to Jack Chick comics and how close I think his views (and the narrow, simplistic thinking upon which those views are based) come to the mainstream of American Christianity, all I've got to go on are my personal experiences with people who call themselves Christians, polling data I've seen on very broadly-stated issues, other impressions from media all around me, including discussion boards such as this, and my generally low opinion of the depth of understanding and consideration that the average human being seems to bring to any strongly-held political or religious belief -- which is seldom very impressive.

While I can't put firm numbers on it by far, all of the above makes it very easy for me to imagine that easily more than 15%, perhaps 25%, and maybe even 30-40% of the American Christian Right would gladly buy into 75-100% of what the illustrious Mr. Chick has to say. It's a thought that saddens me greatly, and it's just a little bit scary too.

[Gene Clean]

You grew up a Roman Catholic, I was literally bombarded with Roman Catholicism - even went to a Roman Catholic High School - which, in turn, has made me more atheistic and more anti-religion as a matter of principle.

When I say anti-principle, I do NOT mean anti-people-who-practice-a-religion, I was fortunate enough to have a Theology teacher who was a very liberal minded guy as far as social issues and religion was concerned, so we actually learned more about other religions than we did learn about Catholicism. In fact, that's where my simpathy for Buddhism comes about; him, taking us to see Buddhist temples here in Chicago, and not only Buddhist but Muslim, and Baha'i too.

All of my friends in that High School were people that later turned out to be anti-religionists (for lack of a better word), and luckily, they are all doing just fine. The problem though, and I was exposed to this every day during my high school days, was the belief that in the end, Christianity was somehow 'better' because it was 'our way of life'. And it was never criticized, never held to light, not even a word, nothing, whereas with other religions people would chime and in say a couple of things or two that didn't really make a whole lot of sense; bullshit they got from either their parents or someone in their vicinity.

I'm guessing everybody is like that...

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by dmz
. You know, I'm real sorry I look at Islam at large as having functionality issues with the modern world, but a great deal of educated people feel the same way I do -- and I think those issues are apparent.
The poster still believes that the world is 6,000 years old.

Just so as you know.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Aaanyway.

The stuff Jack Chick makes is revolting and full of hate. I'm allowed to object to it. Simply because he's Christian doesn't mean he should get be allowed to escape criticism, and if Christians like you, dmz, are going to defend him then it's up to non-Christians like us to make a fuss.

[New]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/bo/2005/bo050602.gif

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by dmz
primitive as in: archaic, persistent, undeveloped, unevolved
Islam is the essentially the same as it was in the 7th century. It had no Reformation. This is a fact.



I see you also wrote somewhere about 'evolving' morals. WOW, you just blew your absolutism argument right out the solar system. I thought the morals of the Heile Byblos didn't change, now you're critisizing Islam for being essentially the same as it was when revealed. I have to laugh. You're all over the place.

What is it then?

A)Gods ultimate laws are subject to relativism and evolution. Christianity is right and you're a hypocrite.

B)Gods ultimate laws are not subject to relativism and evolution. Islam is right and you're a hypocrite.

C)Neither of above, and you're a hypocrite.

[MarcUK]

Originally posted by dmz





Not good.

In all likihood I need to delete my cookies and stop wasting time here. This whole paradigm examining the electron micrographs of every twitch on the Christian landscape, while whole countries are living in the moral 7th century really gets to be too much.

I'll tell you what the problem here is.

The vast majority of Christians here are winger fundamentalists. By default their opinions and views grate on just about everyones nerves, be they Athiest, Scientists, Muslims, green, pink, plack, etc. Always shooting from the hip, loud mouthed narrowminded twits (I don't mean you actually) You set yourselves up to be persecuted and ridiculed by your very demeanour. Infact, I think you actually enjoy it.

Contrast that to the Muslims here. I only know of 2 really, Note that the Muslims here do not constantly grate everyone and talk utter nonsense and stupidity from their rear passage, from what I have seen of Muslims here, they are years ahead of Christians spiritually and intellectually, so even if Islam was the religion of the antiChrist, no-one here feels the need to constantly settle old scores or drag them or Islam through the ringer.

And BTW, I am not a muslim, damn moon god worshippers :devil: :D