Real people's lives in Iraq

[segovius]

A while ago it was asked in a thread why the US could not ensure security or even basic electricity to the citizens of Iraq in two years of occupation.

There was no answer to the question of course because really there is none. But it seems things are getting worse and now the third summer of hell is on its way. From Dahr Jamail (http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/dispatches/000250.php#more):

Keep in mind that all of this is against the backdrop of well over 50% unemployment, horrendous traffic jams, and an infrastructure in shambles that continues to degrade with next to no reconstruction occurring in Baghdad.

“Electricity shut offs drive us crazy in this hot summer,” one of my friends wrote me recently, “Even we can’t read at night because of long hours of electricity cuts and because the outside generators can’t withstand running these long hours and we have to turn these generators off for some time to cool them!”

He continues, “Two years of occupation…for God sake where is the rebuilding, where the hell are these billions donated to Iraq? Even not 1% improvement in services and electricity!

They say again and again the terrorists are to blame and I would accept this, but why they do not protect these facilities? Do the American camps have cuts of electricity? No, no, and nobody will allow this to happen...but poor Iraqis, nobody would be sorry for them if they burn with the hell of summer, small kids and old men they get dehydrated because no electricity, no cold water, etc. Have you heard about the tea that is mixed with iron particles? It is real in our life. People have to make sure their tea is not mixed with iron by use of magnets.”

Fifty percent unemployment and less than One percent improvement in electricity and other services in 2 years ????

And note this: ongoing fuel, electricity and drinking water shortages persist, and only 37% of Iraqis have a working sewage system.

It seems to me that if the US had actually provided real employment opportunities and had shown steady progress in restoring electricity, water and infrastructure then the situation would be very, very different now.

If the Iraqis themselves had a stake in their homeland, if they saw real hope and a brighter future then THEY would sort out the insurgents themselves. In fact, imo, the insurgency would be over and the country would be joining the modern world.

The US could have done this.

But they did not. They could still start - see a mistake and remedy it. But they will not. US companies were making their millions, still are, and that is enough.

So instead of change, hope and progress we have this obscenity :

Yesterday the Iraqi government announced that it may decrease subsidies for fuel and electricity, despite a severe shortage of both in the country, according to the electricity minister who warned Iraqis to prepare for more blackouts this summer.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[hardhead]

It's for their own good... Besides, a little suffering is good for the soul.

They'll be much happier after we've finished cramming "democracy" down their throats, errr, I mean after we've helped the Iraqi people develope democracy. Yeah, that's what we're doing over there...

[tonton]

Halliburton's too busy with other things, and hasn't had time to get to the electricity supply problems.

















;)

[Gene Clean]

But don't forget, it's the 'only' company in the world that is 'able' to provide the 'services' needed there.

[NaplesX]

Um, I think your talking about Bechtel, right?

http://www.bechtel.com/iraq.htm

"Reconstruction Highlights
As of June 2, Bechtel has:

Dredged Port of Umm Qasr, Iraq's only deepwater port, to enable commercial traffic. Restored the port’s grain handling facility, enabling the transfer of up to 60,000 tons per day.
Completed repairs to enable resumption of commercial flights at Baghdad and Basrah International Airports.
Renovated more than 1,200 schools.
Refurbished 10 fire stations and 52 primary health clinics.
Constructed 57 kilometers (35 miles) of new rail lines.
Restored switching stations required to reconnect more than 215,000 Baghdad telephone subscribers, and restored fiber-optic backbone connecting Iraqi cities to the Baghdad area network.
Completed power projects to make available an additional 700 megawatts of electricity, enough to serve 700,000 residents.
Repaired three bridges (Al Mat, Khazir, and Tikrit) critical to traffic flow across Iraq.
Completed seven wastewater treatment projects throughout the country, enabling the treatment of wastewater for more than 7.5 million people.
Rehabilitated seven water treatment projects, restoring their ability to provide treated water to 8.5 million people."

Where are you getting your info?

EDIT: That's a lot of progress in just a couple of years amidst constant sabotage by the "insurgents/terrorists", don't you think?

[Gilsch]

Wow. Directly from the RDF of Bechtel. Next up: a press release from Halliburton.
LMAO.

You tools don't get it. The Iraqis should be happy they're alive. Bastards. They're lying and we should not read/believe anything that's not directly from Bechtel, and/or Halliburton. :lol:

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Gilsch
Wow. Directly from the RDF of Bechtel. Next up: a press release from Halliburton.
LMAO.

You tools don't get it. The Iraqis should be happy they're alive. Bastards. They're lying and we should not read/believe anything that's not directly from Bechtel, and/or Halliburton. :lol: Freedom of Information Act.

But hey, laugh.

I asked where you guys are getting your information, I'l ask again. In addition do your sources provide any tangible evidence for their claims?

Or are we just talking more mindless regurgitation of propaganda?

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Or are we just talking more mindless regurgitation of propaganda? You should know. You're the master of that.
With Us or Against Us™.

P.S We're at War™

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Gilsch
You should know. You're the master of that.
With Us or Against Us™.

P.S We're at War™ That does nothing to support your claims.

I'll let you collect your thoughts, so you can answer me intelligently.

Take your time.

EDITED FOR MISTAKES. THANKS GILSCH. GOOD CATCH.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by NaplesX
That's does nothing to support your claims.
I'll let you collect your thoughts, so you can answer me intelligently.


:D Answer intelligently?...."that's does nothing to support my claims"?
Could you quote my "claims" or make some up like you usually do because "that's does nothing" to entice me to post anything.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Gilsch
:D Answer intelligently?...."that's does nothing to support my claims"?
Could you quote my "claims" or make some up like you usually do because "that's does nothing" to entice me to post anything. So you're just sniping then, I assume.

I appreciate your effort at correcting my typing mistakes. I always wondered what having a personal assistant was like. Kinda cool. Keep up the good work.

[giant]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Or are we just talking more mindless regurgitation of propaganda?
Who knew your posts could get even more ironic?
Originally posted by Gilsch
:D Answer intelligently?...."that's does nothing to support my claims"?
Could you quote my "claims" or make some up like you usually do because "that's does nothing" to entice me to post anything.
:lol:

[Protostar]

Wow. Directly from the RDF of Bechtel. Next up: a press release from Halliburton.
LMAO.

You tools don't get it. The Iraqis should be happy they're alive. Bastards. They're lying and we should not read/believe anything that's not directly from Bechtel, and/or Halliburton.

I doubt they're just making things up. So, all of Iraq has not seen improvements, does that mean that nothing is being repaired or done? I don't believe so. Over time the situation will improve.

But don't forget, it's the 'only' company in the world that is 'able' to provide the 'services' needed there.

Actually, that's close to the truth. It's not the only company that can do it but one of few.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by NaplesX
So you're just sniping then, I assume. I asked you to quote me on my "claims", and predictably, you couldn't. Nothing new there.
I appreciate your effort at correcting my typing mistakes. I know it's hard work to spell properly for some. Glad to be the only source of intelligence in your life. I do recommend you stop trying to learn how to spell, read and write by just reading wacky right-wing sites. Unless you want 3rd grade level education of course. :D

Good day.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Gilsch
I asked you to quote me on my "claims", and predictably, you couldn't. Nothing new there. I am assuming, quite logically, that you agree with assertions and claims put forth in this thread, since you appear to defend them. It would also seem to be the vantage point you are sniping from. If I am wrong please say so, or kindly clarify.

EDIT: Now, it's your turn to answer my question. Seems fair to me.
Originally posted by Gilsch
I know it's hard work to spell properly for some. Glad to be the only source of intelligence in your life. By focusing on spelling you are avoiding the issues. It is a tactic that works for you, but I'm not falling for that, silly. Besides, my spelling is fine. My typing, however is another story.

I am not sure that I would call the infantile direction you have steered this conversation, is what I would call intelligent. I guess your adopted standards are a bit lower than mine. That's cool.

Originally posted by Gilsch
I do recommend you stop trying to learn how to spell, read and write by just reading wacky right-wing sites. Unless you want 3rd grade level education of course. :D Projection doesn't become you.

Originally posted by Gilsch
Good day. Hey thanks. You too.

[giant]

Originally posted by NaplesX
I asked where you guys are getting your information
I'll answer:

A number of people who are currently or were in the country, including a number of guys in the military (some close family, all officers), a number of aid workers (who, incidentally, are often courted by state intel agencies), a handful of civilians from two families. Family members who are involved in the government in a bunch of different ways (currently law professors), including working on the moussaoui case and the admin's torture policies.

On top of that, typically the New Yorker and Atlantic Monthly which are really the best two places to get good, in-depth overarching policy stories, profiles and interviews. When I'm in a phase of reading about politics (and I'm not now) I generally like to read foreign affairs and bulletin of the atomic scientists a lot, too. Aside from that, I read whatever good, detailed stories are out there.

Policy papers are a huge source of info. Those have been a big point of focus for folks interested in where all of this came from. Personally, I took the opportunity to dive back into greek philosophy to get at the origins of neoconservative thought, as a number of other folks even here on AI did to varying degrees.

Aside from that, there are whole, whole lot more technical sources, most of which you don't have access to because they cost money.

In fact, probably about 90% of the sources I check out you don't have access to unless you are connected to a major university. Being connected to a university library gives free access to literally every article, book, film, audio or any scrap of info anywhere in the world. Large u libraries give access to electronic and paper subscriptions of every major magazine and journal and what they don't have you can order from another library (and I have ~5 items from libraries across the world checked out to me at any given time). I've even contacted original authors for things like manuscripts and speech notes. In addition, big libraries are the only way to access old news articles through tools like lexisnexis. Last, there are the professors, talks, guest speakers, etc. I've been actually fortunate to work at a university that includes one of the nation's top journalism schools, so we've had some fantastic guests over the past 4 years. Our library is also a government and UN depository which gives us both a great collection to dig into as well as a team of fantastic librarians who know all of the nooks and crannies of the gov't web presence (and anyone who has done significant research using those mazes of sources knows you get close to nothing without a guide).

Anyway, that's the short, consumer version. The landscape has changed a lot in recent months. We've had two real big public developments: the declining interest of the US media in the minutiae of what's going and the simultaneous explosion of information from Iraqi citizens.

These days segovious seems to be on the right track with good blogs and non-us media. He's been pretty consistently passing along some really interesting bits. It appears that the political climate in the us, the attacks on journalism and growing disinterest in the mess in iraq has crippled us media for the time being.

Of course, I'm not really all that interested in politics right now. We're back to the point where there's not enough drama for regular folks to get big enough groups to make a dent in non-religious/non-morality focused policy and reality has already reared it's ugly head and been ignored by people like you. There just isn't much of a point in getting worked up about it when there are more important things to focus on in life.

In the end the bigger question is how do you get any information without access to any of these resources? The answer is that you obviously don't and can't.

It's also clear you are aware of your information deficiency and that you try to compensate by going to crackpot sites and blogs. They make you feel like you are getting some inside information or that some hidden political reality is revealed. They also demonstrate to their readers how to argue against the mountain of facts, since that's the primary feature of any decent crackpot theories/theorist. In the end, however, they result in consistently false belief systems that are internally coherent thanks to dynamic and flexible justification. Add a shovel full of internet arguing and attempts to save face and your recipe is complete.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by NaplesX
I am assuming, quite logically, that you agree with assertions and claims put forth in this thread, since you appear to defend them. Again, one more time. YOU SAID I MADE CLAIMS.....AGAIN, THIRD TIME....1-2-3....YOU STILL can't quote me or provide proof of what you're saying. To your "credit"( you're right, how I lower my standards with you) you didn't fabricate anything(besides me "defending" others') this time. Kudos?Besides, my spelling is fine. Yeah, it's quite "good". :D

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by giant
Aside from that, there are whole, whole lot more technical sources, most of which you don't have access to because they cost money.

It's also clear you are aware of your information deficiency and that you try to compensate by going to crackpot sites and blogs. They make you feel like you are getting some inside information or that some hidden political reality is revealed. They also demonstrate to their readers how to argue against the mountain of facts, since that's the primary feature of any decent crackpot theories/theorist. In the end, however, they result in consistently false belief systems that are internally coherent thanks to dynamic and flexible justification. Add a shovel full of internet arguing and attempts to save face and your recipe is complete. You know, I was reading your post and actually considering what you had to say, in spite of or in light of, take your pick, your penchant for pontification.

However, you prove just how arrogant you truly are when you make statements like the above. You are obviously part of academia and have no desire to come to grips with reality or the circumstances surrounding it. That being said, I can't quite figure out why you post here. You are obviously, in your own mind, smarter and better equipped than everyone here. But it would seem you have an internal battle with yourself - the one that urges you to post here. So you either have a innate desire to teach (highly doubtful, considering your style) the less fortunate or you are not getting enough attention while in your pompous, self-rightous circle of comrades.

Perhaps, I am totally wrong, and you're just misunderstood. Either way, I will give you a little advice, if you find it worthy to listen to another human being, for once in your life - You just demonstrated how not to win allies or effectively win an argument. This is your biggest weakness, IMO from the our brief history here in AO.

You should present your evidence and your opinion on that evidence and leave it at that. Everyone here is smart enough (for the most part) to see if your opinion is an honestly arrived at one. No-one here has to agree on everything. That's what keeps this place going, no?

When you insult someone like you seem to love to do, you lose the battle - EVEN IF YOU MAY BE RIGHT.

You are an intellectual person, this is not news to you. You know this stuff. Yet you still employ these tactics... What does that make you, really?

[giant]

Originally posted by NaplesX
When you insult someone like you seem to love to do
Take a look at your own posts. I'd bet your posts account for far more than half of the insults on all AI forums every day.

And if you get insulted by me calling your clinton body count and other theories 'crackpot' that's your problem, not mine.
Perhaps, I am totally wrong
very likely, just like the rest of the time

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Gilsch
Again, one more time. YOU SAID I MADE CLAIMS.....AGAIN, THIRD TIME....1-2-3....YOU STILL can't quote me or provide proof of what you're saying. To your "credit"( you're right, how I lower my standards with you) you didn't fabricate anything(besides me "defending" others') this time. Kudos? Yeah, it's quite "good". :D You are being childish. Let's end this now. You are boring me, and dare I say, probably everyone else.

You joined this conversation at your own free will. This conversation is about a fairly narrow topic. You are on one side of this issue and that side is not mine.

Since these facts exist, I assume you are of the same or similar mind as the posters in this particular thread about the, according to them, dismal plight of the Iraqi people.

Now, you are correct that you made no specific claims as to this subject, however you indicated some agreement with the posters here by posting this sarcasm:
Originally posted by Gilsch
You tools don't get it. The Iraqis should be happy they're alive. Bastards. They're lying and we should not read/believe anything that's not directly from Bechtel, and/or Halliburton.
This said to me that you didn't believe the public claims by Bechtel, mandated by the FOIA and that you place some weight on other reports because they are specifically not from "Bechtel, and/or Halliburton" as you put it.

But now you seem to be saying you really weren't posting for or against any point of view. You are being dishonest, IMHO. You can't just pick up the enemy's ammo and gun and start shooting, only to throw it down and declare you're not the enemy.

So forget my previous question. Why are you posting in this forum exactly,,, other than to prove you know how to spell?

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Now, you are correct that you made no specific claims as to this subject, however you indicated some agreement with the posters here by posting this sarcasm: I was about to give you props for finally admitting you lied about things I didn't say, before I read the rest of your post. Here's some advice. If someone doesn't say something, don't make stuff up for them or say or accuse them of saying it. You mention the word dishonest quite a bit, maybe you should learn from it. Then again, that wouldn't leave you with much to say. This said to me that you didn't believe the public claims by Bechtel, mandated by the FOIA and that you place some weight on other reports because they are specifically not from "Bechtel, and/or Halliburton" as you put it. I didn't say I didn't "believe" Bechtel. I think it's silly to take what a company -that will undoubtedly have its best interest in mind when talking about its work- says, as an only source. That said, that list seems awfully limited when you consider the size of Iraq and the amount of destruction shock and awe causes. Not to mention how long they've been working in Iraq. But now you seem to be saying you really weren't posting for or against any point of view. What was that you said about being dishonest? I'd ask you to quote me where I said that, but we know your MO and we know you can't. To be expected from Naples. So forget my previous question. Why are you posting in this forum exactly,,, other than to prove you know how to spell? I suppose you meant thread not forum. I was actually proving how you can't spell for **** and just pointing out how ironic it was that when you asked for intelligence....you posted something incoherent, which I just noticed you corrected lol. And also to point out...how silly it is to take a corporation as an only source like I said above. Capiche?
By the way, you seem to be a little bit confused about the Freedom of Information Act. You provided a link to Bechtel's website. What does it have to do with the FOIA?? Here I am to help you. ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_%28United_States%29FOIA and government
The Freedom of Information Act (1966), for one, explicitly applies to government agencies. These agencies are under several mandates to comply with public solicitation of information. Along with making public and accessible all bureaucratic and technical procedure for applying for documents from that agency, agencies are also subject to penalties for hindering the process of a petition for information.http://www.usdoj.gov/04foia/The FOIA applies only to federal agencies and does not create a right of access to records held by Congress, the courts, or by state or local government agencies.