Immigration out of control-Newsweek

[steve666]

Robert J. Samuelson wrote a good article in the June 13 edition of Newsweek on the problems of mass immigration and illegal immigration.

One quote to entice:
" No society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many of them are poor or unskilled workers."

He also goes on to say that Mexicans are the poorest performing immigrants, even second generation. That's 30 percent of the total immigration level in 2000 that will continue to be a drain on this society.

26 percent of immigrants receive some form of Federal benefit.
35 percent lack health insurance.

More quotes:

" Being brutally candid means recognizing that the huge and largely uncontrolled inflow of unskilled latino workers into the United States is increasingly sabotaging the assimilation process."

"The more who arrive, the harder it will be for existing low-skilled workers to advance".

""The more poor immigrants, the harder it will be for schools to improve the skills of their children. The schools will be overwhelmed; the same goes for social services."

"We could also make more sensible decisions about legal immigrants-favoring the skilled over the un-skilled."

Sounds like a mainstream economist is coming around to the seriousness of the situation. The larger the unskilled latino population grows, the worse off America is. Expect more articles to be written on the current situation. Immigration is out of control and is the single greatest threat to the future of the United States.

All of my local policitians are finding out how concerned their constituents are about the problem. My local paper said at town meetings they expected to be hectored about potholes, medical costs, etc.,etc, but what surprised them was the voracity and frequency of complaints about illegal immigration and overpopulation.

It's time to end the madness and let your politicians know that the problem is real and to deal with it head-on and with candor, minus the timidity that current politicians are showing towards the immigration problem.

http://www.fairus.org

[segovius]

Racism out of control - Segovius

[Aurora]

Originally posted by segovius
Racism out of control - Segovius No its a Border thats out of control along with Washington.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Aurora
No its a Border thats out of control along with Washington.

Fair enough, I can't comment on the US situation but racism (particularly focused on immigration issues) is rampant in Europe and has started increasing four years ago.

The problem is so bad in the UK that the government (which is Islamophobic itself) has been forced to introduce a law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4075442.stm) which makes hate speech on racist grounds or against religions in public an offence punishable by jail time.

Could be bad news for some people on here actually.

[Aurora]

Here in the States George and his republicans have set us back years and years on everything from Immigration to how the world looks at us to the enviroment to healthcare to building a military complex that doesnt seem to answer to anyone. Immigration is just icing on the cake for what i see as the worst presidency since Carter. Its Funny they dont want to touch the immigration issue but they find it easy to pass the Unpatriotic Patriot act. Washington sucks.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by steve666
Robert J. Samuelson wrote a good article in the June 13 edition of Newsweek on the problems of mass immigration and illegal immigration.

One quote to entice:
" No society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many of them are poor or unskilled workers."

He also goes on to say that Mexicans are the poorest performing immigrants, even second generation. That's 30 percent of the total immigration level in 2000 that will continue to be a drain on this society.

26 percent of immigrants receive some form of Federal benefit.
35 percent lack health insurance.

More quotes:

" Being brutally candid means recognizing that the huge and largely uncontrolled inflow of unskilled latino workers into the United States is increasingly sabotaging the assimilation process."

"The more who arrive, the harder it will be for existing low-skilled workers to advance".

""The more poor immigrants, the harder it will be for schools to improve the skills of their children. The schools will be overwhelmed; the same goes for social services."

"We could also make more sensible decisions about legal immigrants-favoring the skilled over the un-skilled."

Sounds like a mainstream economist is coming around to the seriousness of the situation. The larger the unskilled latino population grows, the worse off America is. Expect more articles to be written on the current situation. Immigration is out of control and is the single greatest threat to the future of the United States.

All of my local policitians are finding out how concerned their constituents are about the problem. My local paper said at town meetings they expected to be hectored about potholes, medical costs, etc.,etc, but what surprised them was the voracity and frequency of complaints about illegal immigration and overpopulation.

It's time to end the madness and let your politicians know that the problem is real and to deal with it head-on and with candor, minus the timidity that current politicians are showing towards the immigration problem.

http://www.fairus.org Amen.

Get the military on the borders and stop it like quick.

[segovius]

.......before they steal our jobs and our women with their enormous manhoods.

[Aurora]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Amen.

Get the military on the borders and stop it like quick. Bush doesnt want to, its easier to take away rights from every single American then it is for him to enforce our Border. Plus if he didnt have terrorist coming across the border he couldnt grow the police state. He is a pathetic president in so many ways... Osama still roams the earth................George's answer to all? the Patriot Act. They should have called it the Police Act or the Liberty killing act. America wake up. The President is Guilty of dereliction of duty of his Oath of office.:devil:

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Aurora
Bush doesnt want to, its easier to take away rights from every single American then it is for him to enforce our Border. Plus if he didnt have terrorist coming across the border he couldnt grow the police state. He is a pathetic president in so many ways... Osama still roams the earth................George's answer to all? the Patriot Act. They should have called it the Police Act or the Liberty killing act. America wake up. The President is Guilty of dereliction of duty of his Oath of office.:devil: Well you see, this is where I get confused (not really) about things.

When this subject comes up, we all hear a obnoxiously loud outcry for the "rights" of illegals, I mean "undocumented workers". "We can't take human dignity away from them"... "they just want a better life"... bla bla bla.

On the other hand we hear you advocating treason charges or dod against the president.

If the president put's the military on the border, the onslaught of lawsuits will be so fast and overwhelming we all will get whiplash.

I am not sure there is anything this president could do that would not cause a huge firestorm on the home-front.

Wartime catch 22.

[e1618978]

This problem is easily solved - you just remove welfare and unemployement benefits for non-citizens, and you outsource jails back to Mexico (i.e. Mexican illegals who go to jail would be sent to a low-cost jail run by Mexican contractors south of the border).

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
This problem is easily solved - you just remove welfare and unemployement benefits for non-citizens

And the result is MASSIVE crime.

The only solution to all of this is EITHER to set up a guest worker program OR to aggressively prosecute those business who hire them.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Aurora
No its a Border thats out of control along with Washington.

Bingo

[steve666]

Originally posted by segovius
Racism out of control - Segovius

You're calling Robert Samuelson a racist?
I know you would call me that, even though I have stated the same things that this article states forever.
I thought perhaps since you guys are always asking me to give you some legitimate info from a legitimate source that perhaps you would open your minds and realize that a problem exists.

Oh well, I will keep bringing the message, some will get it, some won't.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Aurora
Bush doesnt want to, its easier to take away rights from every single American then it is for him to enforce our Border. Plus if he didnt have terrorist coming across the border he couldnt grow the police state. He is a pathetic president in so many ways... Osama still roams the earth................George's answer to all? the Patriot Act. They should have called it the Police Act or the Liberty killing act. America wake up. The President is Guilty of dereliction of duty of his Oath of office.:devil:

Bush is a train wreck. So far, he has to go down in history as the worst President we have ever had, after Jimmy carter. At least Jimmy Carter had good intentions.

[steve666]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Well you see, this is where I get confused (not really) about things.

When this subject comes up, we all hear a obnoxiously loud outcry for the "rights" of illegals, I mean "undocumented workers". "We can't take human dignity away from them"... "they just want a better life"... bla bla bla.

On the other hand we hear you advocating treason charges or dod against the president.

If the president put's the military on the border, the onslaught of lawsuits will be so fast and overwhelming we all will get whiplash.

I am not sure there is anything this president could do that would not cause a huge firestorm on the home-front.

Wartime catch 22.

He has the right to put troops on the border. They cant sue for that, however they have sued every time Congress tries to do the right thing and cut off all services (except emergency medical care) for illegals and legal immigrants. Then, the wimps back down. I say, the Govmnt should sue the suers for bringing on worthless lawsuits.

[Moe_in_Texas]

1. We should put troops on the border. Mexico protects its South border, we can protect ours. Are the Mexicans racist against Central Americans?

2. Raid jobsites in thge US . Illegals found, shut down the job and fine the company and of course send the illegals home. Repeat companies shut down for good.



Too bad US Gov has no real interest in closing the borders.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
1. We should put troops on the border. Mexico protects its South border, we can protect ours. Are the Mexicans racist against Central Americans?

2. Raid jobsites in thge US . Illegals found, shut down the job and fine the company and of course send the illegals home. Repeat companies shut down for good.



Too bad US Gov has no real interest in closing the borders.

Thats exactly right. Mexico sends back Central Americans the second it finds them. We should be doing the same.
Its atrocious that Shrub and Congress are trying to pass another damn amnesty when the problem will only grow and they will once again reward illegal behavior.

[Aurora]

The U.S. Government isnt accountable to its people, its accountable to Big Business and every day of George Bush only confirms this for me. Republicans are going to get kicked out and it will be decades again before the American People let them back. America is slow to react but react it will . History 101 but George missed that just as he did the vietnam war.:mad:

[e1618978]

Originally posted by steve666
Thats exactly right. Mexico sends back Central Americans the second it finds them. We should be doing the same.
Its atrocious that Shrub and Congress are trying to pass another damn amnesty when the problem will only grow and they will once again reward illegal behavior.

1. Are you willing to pay $8/lb for peaches?
2. Are you willing to earn minimum wage working as a seasonal farm hand?

You have to choose one or the other if you want to stop small farms from hiring illegal mexican labor.

[e1618978]

And the result is MASSIVE crime.

So spend the saved welfare money on extra cops.

[steve666]

Originally posted by e1618978
1. Are you willing to pay $8/lb for peaches?
2. Are you willing to earn minimum wage working as a seasonal farm hand?

You have to choose one or the other if you want to stop small farms from hiring illegal mexican labor.

I think there needs to be a guest worker program for farm workers only.
They should get a card and be able to move back and forth as the season warrants.
The farms should have to provide shelter for them-good shelter.
This should not be able to lead to citizenship.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Aurora
The U.S. Government isnt accountable to its people, its accountable to Big Business and every day of George Bush only confirms this for me. Republicans are going to get kicked out and it will be decades again before the American People let them back. America is slow to react but react it will . History 101 but George missed that just as he did the vietnam war.:mad:

The only hope is a third party.
A few huge noisy protests are also needed.

Join FAIR and get in on the fight with me:

http://www.fairus.org

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
1. We should put troops on the border. Mexico protects its South border, we can protect ours. Are the Mexicans racist against Central Americans?

2. Raid jobsites in thge US . Illegals found, shut down the job and fine the company and of course send the illegals home. Repeat companies shut down for good.



Too bad US Gov has no real interest in closing the borders.

1. Yes.

Actually...

"2nd generation immigrants" aren't immigrants, they're citizens.

And the quoted comments in the first post aren't specifically towards illegals.

And as I said elsewhere in the last of steve652 propagandizing posts, most illegals are legal immigrants who over stay their visas, NaplesX...

This is racism at its core...

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
1. Yes.

Actually...

"2nd generation immigrants" aren't immigrants, they're citizens.

And the quoted comments in the first post aren't specifically towards illegals.

And as I said elsewhere in the last of steve652 propagandizing posts, most illegals are legal immigrants who over stay their visas, NaplesX...

This is racism at its core... Why mention my name, I was born here as were for like 5 or six generations. My family came over legally way back when from England and Scotland and Germany.

Unless you wanted me to point out that "overstaying" a visa is still being illegal. I mean, why make rules...

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
1. Yes.

Actually...

"2nd generation immigrants" aren't immigrants, they're citizens.

And the quoted comments in the first post aren't specifically towards illegals.

And as I said elsewhere in the last of steve652 propagandizing posts, most illegals are legal immigrants who over stay their visas, NaplesX...

This is racism at its core...

So you are calling Robert Samuelson racist?
That's the punk way out-you have no argument so you go with the name calling.
Typical.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
So you are calling Robert Samuelson racist?
That's the punk way out-you have no argument so you go with the name calling.
Typical.

I don't personally think he's a racist, but I do believe that all anti-immigrant movements like this one are classist—and racism is a subset of classism. It was this way 100-150 years ago; it is today.

http://homepage.mac.com/scottrogers_/nina.jpg

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
I don't personally think he's a racist, but I do believe that all anti-immigrant movements like this one are classist—and racism is a subset of classism. It was this way 100-150 years ago; it is today.

http://homepage.mac.com/scottrogers_/nina.jpg

Thats ridiculous. So there can never be a rational discussion about immigration. And those who are against illegal immigration will always be branded racist.
Hard to have a debate about a serious issue when one side refuses to acknowledge that the issue is serious enough to warrant a look at the positives and negatives of mass immigration.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
Thats ridiculous.

So my position that racism is a subset of classism is "ridiculous"? Powerful counter-argument you have there.

So there can never be a rational discussion about immigration.

There has NEVER been a rational discussion about illegal immigration. Anywhere. Ever. America, for its earliest days, has always possessed factions that were vehemently—even violently—anti-immigration (http://www.hsp.org/files/unclesamslodginghousecover2.jpg). Ironic, of course, for a nation of immigrants to act this way, but there you are. (Sort of like the English hating the French, considering the French conquered them in 1066 and never left.) Despite its hyperbole, the anti-immigration sentiments in The Gangs of New York did exist.

I'll make a few points: 1) Illegal immigrants are illegal and should be treated as if they are breaking the law. 2) Stopping them is impossible and, 3) Would mean death to huge sectors of the economy.

The over-arching point here, of course, is simply that America's bourgeoisie has a long history of enjoying relative luxury at the expense of an effective slave class. It was that way in the 19th century. We've simply replaced the farm labor with people from Mexico.

You want to stop illegal immigration? Start arguing for an end to farm subsidies. Start complaining that your vegetables are too cheap. Start demanding that your produce be picked only by legal workers.

Here's a nice little moment: every time you purchase anything that used illegal immigrant labor in its production—and this includes buying oranges or having construction done—you are complicit in the system you're attacking.

Fun, isn't' it? It's just like the faux-hippies railing against big oil and then cruising the streets in their SUVs. Except this is inescapable.

Demand it from your farmers. Demand that your local government crack down on those businesses that use illegal labor. Kindly explain to everyone that our veggies are too cheap and our day labor is woefully underpaid.

Hard to have a debate about a serious issue when one side refuses to acknowledge that the issue is serious enough to warrant a look at the positives and negatives of mass immigration.

Indeed. The problem is that, at this point, it's simply intractable. There is no way to "fix" it. People move around. They always have.

[steve666]

You know what I think? If Hillary Clinton suddenly came out and said exactly what Robert Samuelson said you would suddenly agree.

He is a mainstream economist pointing out the problems with our current immigration system and you are basically ignoring the argument by falling back on the racism canard and the "we can't do anything about it" lazy response.

You can do better than that.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
You know what I think? If Hillary Clinton suddenly came out and said exactly what Robert Samuelson said you would suddenly agree.

It would be a lot better if you would deal with what I actually said rather than just make up arguments you imagine I might make (and I fucking despise Senator Clinton, FWIW).

He is a mainstream economist pointing out the problems with our current immigration system and you are basically ignoring the argument by falling back on the racism canard and the "we can't do anything about it" lazy response.

You can do better than that.

Did you miss my call for a guest worker program? Did you miss my call for the gov't to crack down on businesses that hire illegal workers? Did you miss my argument that there would be wide-ranging economic implications? Did you miss my call for Americans to suck it up if they really want this?

Jesus. I presented a thoughtful, if rambling response, and this is what you fucking come back with? Why don't you re-read what I wrote.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
So you are calling Robert Samuelson racist?
That's the punk way out-you have no argument so you go with the name calling.
Typical.

I have arguments. I made them already. You didn't respond to any of them in the previous thread.

Mr. Samuelson is asking you to believe that all latinos (specifically Mexicans) are lazy. That is racism.

He doesn't ask why immigrants from latin american countries are "poor performers," whatever that means. Likely reason: language, and preservation of language over generations (unlike most other immigrants, spanish is very much tied to the culture of these immigrants in ways that most others perhaps cannot understand).

He also is trying to push off poor performing schools on immigrants, which sir, is a cop out. Schools are performing badly all over the fucking place.


etcetcetc

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
It would be a lot better if you would deal with what I actually said rather than just make up arguments you imagine I might make (and I fucking despise Senator Clinton, FWIW).



Did you miss my call for a guest worker program? Did you miss my call for the gov't to crack down on businesses that hire illegal workers? Did you miss my argument that there would be wide-ranging economic implications? Did you miss my call for Americans to suck it up if they really want this?

Jesus. I presented a thoughtful, if rambling response, and this is what you fucking come back with? Why don't you re-read what I wrote.

Whatever you write gets lost when the 'racist' plank gets raised. Next time leave it out and stick to the point you are trying to make.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Whatever you write gets lost when the 'racist' plank gets raised. Next time leave it out and stick to the point you are trying to make.

Another cop out.

Edit: Ball-less punk.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I have arguments. I made them already. You didn't respond to any of them in the previous thread.

Mr. Samuelson is asking you to believe that all latinos (specifically Mexicans) are lazy. That is racism.

He doesn't ask why immigrants from latin american countries are "poor performers," whatever that means. Likely reason: language, and preservation of language over generations (unlike most other immigrants, spanish is very much tied to the culture of these immigrants in ways that most others perhaps cannot understand).

He also is trying to push off poor performing schools on immigrants, which sir, is a cop out. Schools are performing badly all over the fucking place.


etcetcetc

I snipped quotes from the article. If you read the whole article, theres nothing racist about it, just listing facts. The cause of latino's poor performance is implied that there is something in latino culture that doesn't put an emphasis on education and assimilation. That is a valid argument, whether its nice or not isn't the issue. Whether or not it is true is an issue. To me, to that economist, to the fellow that did the research it sure seems to be that way.
What he also said is that we need to do something to improve their lot in this country for their sake and ours. The resulting conclusion is that further high rates of immigration will make that job more difficult, and I agree with this assessment.
As for schools being bad, you can look at the performance of different immigrant groups and the native born population and latinos are by far the poorest performers. This needs to be addressed, whether you think its racist or not.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Another cop out.

Edit: Ball-less punk.

You are unbelievable.
Try to be less emotional when you argue, it works better.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
You are unbelievable.
Maybe you should leave the discussion to the adults.

I am just using your level of discussion.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I am just using your level of discussion.

My discussion is based on an article that a respected economist wrote and the dissection of it.
My level of discussion is to look at the facts that are on the ground.
You can't sit there and say that what he is saying is not true.
If you want to argue about the causes, fine, but the situation is what it is.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
I snipped quotes from the article. If you read the whole article, theres nothing racist about it, just listing facts. The cause of latino's poor performance is implied that there is something in latino culture that doesn't put an emphasis on education and assimilation. That is a valid argument, whether its nice or not isn't the issue. Whether or not it is true is an issue. To me, to that economist, to the fellow that did the research it sure seems to be that way.
What he also said is that we need to do something to improve their lot in this country for their sake and ours. The resulting conclusion is that further high rates of immigration will make that job more difficult, and I agree with this assessment.
As for schools being bad, you can look at the performance of different immigrant groups and the native born population and latinos are by far the poorest performers. This needs to be addressed, whether you think its racist or not.

I don't read newsweek. Your quotes indicate a selective use of language without defining any of his terms.

I can say white christian males are by far the worst performers. But what does that mean? Unless I make my evaluation clear (in this case I choose any evaluation system that will prove me correct), it is a meaningless statement and any opinions derived from these sorts of statements are also meaningless.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
My discussion is based on an article that a respected economist wrote and the dissection of it.
My level of discussion is to look at the facts that are on the ground.
You can't sit there and say that what he is saying is not true.
If you want to argue about the causes, fine, but the situation is what it is.

You aren't arguing about what is occurring on the ground. You are arguing about what is going on in these psuedopundit's minds. They are jerking off to the population of Americans, like yourself, who want reasons to fear something they barely understand.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I don't read newsweek. Your quotes indicate a selective use of language without defining any of his terms.

I can say white christian males are by far the worst performers. But what does that mean? Unless I make my evaluation clear (in this case I choose any evaluation system that will prove me correct), it is a meaningless statement and any opinions derived from these sorts of statements are also meaningless.

Its not meaningless, the facts are quite simple.
Latinos drop out of High School at a higher rate than any other ethnic group in the US.
Latinos go to College at a lower rate than any other ethnic group.
The speculation is that further high immigration rates of uneducated immigrants is bad for this country-true or false?
The speculation is that further high latino immigration rates make it more difficult for latinos already here to move up the ladder and make more money.

I'll give you the last word if you want it, my typing hand hurts (damn arthritis).

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
Whatever you write gets lost when the 'racist' plank gets raised. Next time leave it out and stick to the point you are trying to make.

So in other words, you have not read any of the posts I've made and now you're trying to cover your tracks by taking the high ground.

Coward.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Its not meaningless, the facts are quite simple.
Latinos drop out of High School at a higher rate than any other ethnic group in the US.
Latinos go to College at a lower rate than any other ethnic group.
The speculation is that further high immigration rates of uneducated immigrants is bad for this country-true or false?
The speculation is that further high latino immigration rates make it more difficult for latinos already here to move up the ladder and make more money.

I'll give you the last word if you want it, my typing hand hurts (damn arthritis).


:rolleyes:

Latinos aren't one cultural group.

The US has survived immigration from the uneducated masses many times before this and has come out better than before.

Most americans don't have high school deplomas. How do these immigrants compare with people in their social class, given the existence of a massive language barrier?

Meaningless comparisons, meaningless "facts".

What is your deal with the last word?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
What is your deal with the last word?

It means he's running away.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by steve666
Its not meaningless, the facts are quite simple.
Latinos drop out of High School at a higher rate than any other ethnic group in the US. Ahhh, there you go. I don't see you differentiate between US born latinos/legal latino immigrants and latinos who got here illegally so I'm going to assume all Latinos=illegal immigrants=problems to you. It's not like Latinos become criminals or bums when they drop out of HS either.
Latinos go to College at a lower rate than any other ethnic group. That is true. So? Let's get to the root of the problem and first of all, help them get to college. Let's try and fix that without "assuming" all latinos= illegals. The speculation is that further high immigration rates of uneducated immigrants is bad for this country-true or false? I could wipe my ..... with "speculation". Specially based on FAIR's credentials. lol The speculation is that further high latino immigration rates make it more difficult for latinos already here to move up the ladder and make more money. More "speculation". So all this is actually about....helping latinos in the US? How noble of "FAIR" and you. How sweet.

Since you purposely grouped all latinos into one category, I shall do the same and finish by saying that I sure want to get my hands on those latino $1- trillion- by- 2010 purchasing dollars. I have no doubt that there is no worst case scenario- not even one by FAIR- capable of offsetting the benefit of 1 TRILLION dollars into our economy.

I urge everyone to research that joke called "FAIR" and latino workforce and economic numbers. Maybe you'll also find the thread starter's argument shifts quite telling.

Edit: By the way. I do think porous borders and illegal immigration are problems we need to deal with pronto.

I believe in workers' programs and amnesty to those who have been here paying taxes and contributing to our economy long enough.

[Aurora]

Just enforce the dam border, its not rocket science. There is a line where the U.S. ends and other countries begin. Its that simple. Spin,lies and Special Intterest can screw up anything including our Border. According to this President we are at war so why hasnt he done his Job? Why isnt he upholding his Oath of Office? he should resign or be impeached for dereliction of duty. Immigration is out of control and both parties could care a less. Their Interests are elsewhere like attacking each other etc.Meanwhile 1/7 of our population is now latino. Its time for both parties to pull their heads out of their arse's. Vote out all incumbants is the only answer.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Aurora
Just enforce the dam border, its not rocket science. There is a line where the U.S. ends and other countries begin.

Maybe a moat? A human chain? Mutated dogs?

Yes. We have a border. It is enormous.

[Aurora]

Originally posted by midwinter
Maybe a moat? A human chain? Mutated dogs?

Yes. We have a border. It is enormous. Your right just ignore it and those Million's of illegal mexicans will just go away.:lol: :wow: :no: I like the Moat idea. plus it will give us a alternative to the Panama Canal:smokey:

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Aurora
Your right just ignore it and those Million's of illegal mexicans will just go away.

Yay! Really expensive oranges!

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by midwinter
Yay! Really expensive oranges! Scare tactics. If prices even go up it will be only slightly. It's not like each illegal only picks 1 orange each.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Scare tactics. If prices even go up it will be only slightly. It's not like each illegal only picks 1 orange each.

So wait. The illegals are here in numbers enough to affect our economy but not in numbers enough to affect our economy? Do you even realize what you're arguing?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by midwinter
So wait. The illegals are here in numbers enough to affect our economy but not in numbers enough to affect our economy? Do you even realize what you're arguing? Yes, I do.

if illegal picks 1000 oranges a day @ 3.00/hr, assuming an 8 hour day, It costs the farmer 28.00 per 1000 oranges or 2.8 cents per orange.

If a legal picks 1000 oranges a day at minimum wage it costs the farmer 61.50 per 1000 or 6.1 cents per orange.

Were talking pennies in cost increase. Even if every worker in the chain - picking, sorting, packing, delivery - were illegal, it is only a modest increase. Easily absorbed or made more efficient to compensate.

[Moe_in_Texas]

We are already paying for the illegals. The "expensive oranges” talk is nonsense. How about the expensive schools, the expensive hospitals, and the cops and the firemen? We are already paying for our oranges.

What we need to do:

-Stop the flow of illegals--yes we can do this

-Maintain legal immigration at a level that we can support

-Initiate a guest worker program for agricultural jobs and make the employers responsible for their people.


Over and over I hear about how this nation was built by immigrants. It was, but a lot has changes over the last 100 years. Once we were an open land hungry for people to settle and expand this developing country. It is not like that today. We are a mature nation. We can no longer take anyone who wants to be here. It is not anti-anybody or racist. It is a physical and economic reality.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by NaplesX
if illegal picks 1000 oranges a day @ 3.00/hr, assuming an 8 hour day, It costs the farmer 28.00 per 1000 oranges or 2.8 cents per orange.

If a legal picks 1000 oranges a day at minimum wage it costs the farmer 61.50 per 1000 or 6.1 cents per orange.

Were talking pennies in cost increase.

You're talking a 300% increase in cost for only ONE WORKER which, when worked out down the line, is amplified and amplified and will, eventually, have to be passed on to the consumer.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
How about the expensive schools, the expensive hospitals, and the cops and the firemen? We are already paying for our oranges.

Tell that to the farmers. They're all making a killing these days, which is, of course, why they hire illegals to pick things.

-Stop the flow of illegals--yes we can do this

Impossible. Those damned Canadians will find a way to get across and steal our jobs.

-Maintain legal immigration at a level that we can support

OK.

-Initiate a guest worker program for agricultural jobs and make the employers responsible for their people.

OK.

Over and over I hear about how this nation was built by immigrants. It was, but a lot has changes over the last 100 years.

And even more over the last 200, one of which is that the damned gummit made people start paying their slave workers. Bastards.

[Moe_in_Texas]

It is not about stealing our jobs. it is about knowing who is in the US. The WOT is a joke while the borders are Swiss Cheese.


"Tell that to the farmers. They're all making a killing these days, which is, of course, why they hire illegals to pick things."

Poor farmers or huge farming corporations?


"And even more over the last 200, one of which is that the damned gummit made people start paying their slave workers. Bastards."

What does this have to do with anything? Slavery and fake hick talk? Please!

The US was a wide open land that needed people. We welcomed anyone who could get here and those immigrants created this nation. Today we need to be more selective. We can't hold everyone who wants to be here. Immigration must have limits. It must be controlled and it must be legal.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
What does this have to do with anything?

Sigh. Nothing. Nothing at all. Move along, please. These aren't the droids you're looking for.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by midwinter
You're talking a 300% increase in cost for only ONE WORKER which, when worked out down the line, is amplified and amplified and will, eventually, have to be passed on to the consumer. 300% ?

from approx .3 to .6 is 300% in your book? Try closer to 200%

But that does not equate to a 200% increase in price when you buy it. The picking part is just a fraction of the overall cost of operation.

Stop the chicken little dance. I think we are all smarter than that.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by NaplesX
300% ?

from approx .3 to .6 is 300% in your book? Try closer to 200%

OK. Fair enough. The cost of one worker picking only DOUBLES.

But that does not equate to a 200% increase in price when you buy it. The picking part is just a fraction of the overall cost of operation.

Are you trying to make my argument for me?

[e1618978]

Originally posted by steve666
Bush is a train wreck. So far, he has to go down in history as the worst President we have ever had, after Jimmy carter. At least Jimmy Carter had good intentions.

Or the best we have had since Nixon, depending on your point of view.

[e1618978]

He also goes on to say that Mexicans are the poorest performing immigrants, even second generation.

From my point of view, they are the hardest working people in the country - so how could they be the "poorest performing"?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
From my point of view, they are the hardest working people in the country - so how could they be the "poorest performing"?

I think that's pretty obvious: they don't, even at the second generation, go on to make the big bucks.

Meet Mexico. It's the new Black.

[e1618978]

Tell that to the farmers. They're all making a killing these days, which is, of course, why they hire illegals to pick things.

That was a joke, right?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by midwinter
OK. Fair enough. The cost of one worker picking only DOUBLES.



Are you trying to make my argument for me? Ok look, pay attention.

function - cost - before legalization

Harvesting - 10000
Packaging - 10000
Shipping - 10000
Storage - 10000
Management - 10000
Licensing - 10000


total cost for harvest - 60000


----


function - cost - after legalization

Harvesting - 20000
Packaging - 10000
Shipping - 10000
Storage - 10000
Management - 10000
Licensing - 10000


total cost for harvest - 70000

About a 16% increase in cost by these numbers.

This is an illustration but it makes my point.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
That was a joke, right?

Very much.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by NaplesX
About a 16% increase in cost by these numbers.

This is an illustration but it makes my point.

And where have you factored in the profit margins?

[e1618978]

Originally posted by midwinter
I think that's pretty obvious: they don't, even at the second generation, go on to make the big bucks.

Meet Mexico. It's the new Black.

But neither did the irish, I imagine that it was 4 or 5 generations before they started going to university.

[e1618978]

function - cost - before legalization

Harvesting - 10000
Packaging - 10000
Shipping - 10000
Storage - 10000
Management - 10000
Licensing - 10000


All of those jobs except for Management are done by mexican immegrants (not illegals, for the most part, but the article was about all mexican immegrants anyway).

My wife grew up on a farm in New Mexico, and she spoke only spanish until she moved away at age 4.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
But neither did the irish, I imagine that it was 4 or 5 generations before they started going to university.

Good point. And again, we're back to my earlier point that this is about class, not race (although race is a subset of class, I argue). The Irish who came here following the blight in the 1840s were OVERWHELMINGLY poor. Bad poor. Awful poor. The kind of poor most folks who don't read Engels's Condition of the Working Poor can't even begin to imagine.

Why is it so surprising that an impoverished sector of the population doesn't, on average, suddenly start acting all WASP middle class?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by midwinter
And where have you factored in the profit margins? Profit margins are determined by supply and demand. They fluctuate.

It doesn't matter, you will see approx. the same increase in price as you will see increase in cost. This fluctuates also.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Profit margins are determined by supply and demand. They fluctuate.

It doesn't matter, you will see approx. the same increase in price as you will see increase in cost. This fluctuates also.

I get most of my income from a farm - profit margins are low, and return on investment is really bad.

If your costs rise 16%, that can easily put you into the red. There are a lot of farms that are worth more as residential land than farm land, and if you make them unprofitable then they will be converted to houses.

Of course, the governement needs a good percentage of the food supply to be grown domestically for national security reasons, so the government will bump of the farm subsidies rather than let this happen.

So you will end up paying higher taxes...

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
What does this have to do with anything? Slavery and fake hick talk? Please!

I'm from podunk Mississippi. It's real hick talk.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by e1618978
All of those jobs except for Management are done by mexican immegrants (not illegals, for the most part, but the article was about all mexican immegrants anyway).

My wife grew up on a farm in New Mexico, and she spoke only spanish until she moved away at age 4. Are not legal immigrant supposed to be paid minimum wage?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
If your costs rise 16%, that can easily put you into the red.

Not to mention that a 16% increase in costs for just about any business would be immense.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Are not legal immigrant supposed to be paid minimum wage?

I was making a side point about the value of Mexican immegrants (both legal and illegal), they are an overwhelming presence that cannot be replaced by other labor.

All of those jobs will have to pay a lot more if there are fewer Mexican people available. Supply of workers will dry up, and wages will go up, and costs will go up, as will food prices and inflation.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
All of those jobs will have to pay a lot more if there are fewer Mexican people available. Supply of workers will dry up, and wages will go up, and costs will go up, as will food prices and inflation.

No no no!!! Don't you get it? Illegal immigrants come here and are a drain on our economy and steal our jobs to such a tremendous degree that we all need to be up in arms (some, literally) about it! But if we stop them, there will be only a negligible effect on the economy, as their effect on it is minor.

;)

I swear to God. That's the argument.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by midwinter
Not to mention that a 16% increase in costs for just about any business would be immense. Indeed. A 16% cost increase in ANY business is H-U-G-E. :no:

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
So in other words, you have not read any of the posts I've made and now you're trying to cover your tracks by taking the high ground.

Coward.

What the hell are you babbling about, you little runt?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
What the hell are you babbling about, you little runt?

So now, rather than address my points or read what I've said, you decide to call me a "little runt."

Nice.

Edit: to which I should add the following. I'm not a "little runt." I'm 12 feet tall and have 7 black-belts in various forms of martial arts. And I breathe fire.

I love internet tough guys.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
:rolleyes:

Latinos aren't one cultural group.

The US has survived immigration from the uneducated masses many times before this and has come out better than before.

Most americans don't have high school deplomas. How do these immigrants compare with people in their social class, given the existence of a massive language barrier?

Meaningless comparisons, meaningless "facts".

What is your deal with the last word?

The US has never had this long a period of endlessly high numbers of poor immigrants. Thats just legal immigrants, throw in illegals and the problem is worse.
As for the massive language barrier, that doesn't seem to be such a problem for most asian immigrants, russian immigrants, etc etc.
And their study showed that second generation latinos also seem to fall behind other ethnic groups.
Those aren't meaningless unless you want to ignore them.

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
It means he's running away.

I obviously meant for the night.
Do you two always have such poor reading comprehension?

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gilsch
Ahhh, there you go. I don't see you differentiate between US born latinos/legal latino immigrants and latinos who got here illegally so I'm going to assume all Latinos=illegal immigrants=problems to you. It's not like Latinos become criminals or bums when they drop out of HS either.
That is true. So? Let's get to the root of the problem and first of all, help them get to college. Let's try and fix that without "assuming" all latinos= illegals. I could wipe my ..... with "speculation". Specially based on FAIR's credentials. lol More "speculation". So all this is actually about....helping latinos in the US? How noble of "FAIR" and you. How sweet.

Since you purposely grouped all latinos into one category, I shall do the same and finish by saying that I sure want to get my hands on those latino $1- trillion- by- 2010 purchasing dollars. I have no doubt that there is no worst case scenario- not even one by FAIR- capable of offsetting the benefit of 1 TRILLION dollars into our economy.

I urge everyone to research that joke called "FAIR" and latino workforce and economic numbers. Maybe you'll also find the thread starter's argument shifts quite telling.

Edit: By the way. I do think porous borders and illegal immigration are problems we need to deal with pronto.

I believe in workers' programs and amnesty to those who have been here paying taxes and contributing to our economy long enough.

The study actually concentrated on LEGAL latino immigrants, not illegals.
The study showed that further high immigration rates hinder advancement for latinos.
You cannot force people to get educated. Its more of a community effort than a govmnt effort, although if they can come up with something that works, I'm all for it.
Getting rid of bilingual education is one way to help.
As for FAIR, they had nothing to do with the article, thats why i thought some of you might find it difficult to jump all over a respected economist writing an article that FAIR could have written itself, saying essentially the same things I have said and that FAIR have said.
Unfortunately, your mind's made up and anything contradictory to your views is automatically racist or just plain wrong.

Amnesty? They don't deserve it and shouldn't get it.
Let them get back in line with everyone else.

[NaplesX]

None of you got the point. Never-mind.

If every immigrant, legal or no, got paid minimum wage tomorrow, they would contribute more to the economy, and thus generate growth in other areas. This is the nature of an economy.

Agriculture is not the whole of the American economy, either. So if all illegals left tomorrow, demand would immediately cause wages to increase until the situation settled itself out. A 16% (remember theoretical) increase in operating costs is better than no crops or profits.

I take it none of you are business people?

[steve666]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
We are already paying for the illegals. The "expensive oranges” talk is nonsense. How about the expensive schools, the expensive hospitals, and the cops and the firemen? We are already paying for our oranges.

What we need to do:

-Stop the flow of illegals--yes we can do this

-Maintain legal immigration at a level that we can support

-Initiate a guest worker program for agricultural jobs and make the employers responsible for their people.


Over and over I hear about how this nation was built by immigrants. It was, but a lot has changes over the last 100 years. Once we were an open land hungry for people to settle and expand this developing country. It is not like that today. We are a mature nation. We can no longer take anyone who wants to be here. It is not anti-anybody or racist. It is a physical and economic reality.

Moe, you're being too rational. Midwinter, hardeharhar, and the other idiot don't understand common sense.

[steve666]

Originally posted by e1618978
From my point of view, they are the hardest working people in the country - so how could they be the "poorest performing"?

Education and moving into the middle class.

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
Good point. And again, we're back to my earlier point that this is about class, not race (although race is a subset of class, I argue). The Irish who came here following the blight in the 1840s were OVERWHELMINGLY poor. Bad poor. Awful poor. The kind of poor most folks who don't read Engels's Condition of the Working Poor can't even begin to imagine.

Why is it so surprising that an impoverished sector of the population doesn't, on average, suddenly start acting all WASP middle class?

But there have been ebbs and tides of immigration rates.
For the last 20-30 years there has been no let-up. What they are saying is that there needs to be a period of slowdown in immigration to give those who are here now a greater chance to move up and assimilate.

[steve666]

Originally posted by e1618978
I was making a side point about the value of Mexican immegrants (both legal and illegal), they are an overwhelming presence that cannot be replaced by other labor.

All of those jobs will have to pay a lot more if there are fewer Mexican people available. Supply of workers will dry up, and wages will go up, and costs will go up, as will food prices and inflation.

Funny, I thought there were immigrants from all over the world that want to come here. How about spreading it out between other groups that may have something else to offer us?

Illegals can be replaced by...........legals.

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
So now, rather than address my points or read what I've said, you decide to call me a "little runt."

Nice.

Edit: to which I should add the following. I'm not a "little runt." I'm 12 feet tall and have 7 black-belts in various forms of martial arts. And I breathe fire.

I love internet tough guys.

Interesting.
I try to keep the discussion civil, then I get called racist, coward, etc.
I decide to finally answer back and now I'm the bad guy?
Typical liberal. Now thats a dirty word

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
But there have been ebbs and tides of immigration rates.

Yes. And typically, those fluctuations in immigration rates are tied to economic disturbances or natural disasters. Ireland is really the only comparison here.

For the last 20-30 years there has been no let-up. What they are saying is that there needs to be a period of slowdown in immigration to give those who are here now a greater chance to move up and assimilate. [/B]

Great. My point throughout this whole discussion has been that you are not ever ever ever going to get Canadians to stop sneaking across the border and getting jobs that would otherwise, presumably, go to legal workers. If you want to stop it, go after the companies/industries that hire them.

I would also point out what should be fairly obvious: not everyone can move up. Not everyone can be WASP middle class. I'm not talking about ability or capacity. I'm saying that the economy NECESSITATE a poor/working/labor class, just as it necessitates that there be some degree of unemployment (or "surplus labor" as it used to be called).

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by NaplesX
If every immigrant, legal or no, got paid minimum wage tomorrow. They would contribute more to the economy, and thus generate growth in other areas. This is the nature of an economy. What?? Can we have English please? A 16% (remember theoretical) increase in operating costs is better than no crops or profits. That's the whole bloody point. A "theoretical" 16% increase in operating costs would wipe out many businesses with lower profit margins. :no: I take it none of you are business people? :lol:

It's obvious you aren't.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
Interesting.
I try to keep the discussion civil, then I get called racist, coward, etc.
I decide to finally answer back and now I'm the bad guy?
Typical liberal. Now thats a dirty word

Just quoting this so that it won't disappear.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Gilsch

It's obvious you aren't.

I thought the same thing. And then I hoped he wasn't an economist.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Gilsch
What?? Can we have English please? Once again, you childishly point out typos and mistakes, rather than address issues. I guarantee I will make more misspellings and typos, so now is the perfect time to be a grown up little boy and get over it.



Originally posted by Gilsch
That's the whole bloody point. A "theoretical" 16% increase in operating costs would wipe out many businesses with lower profit margins. :no: :lol:

It's obvious you aren't. In my example of totally made up numbers, I illustrated how an increase in one or a couple of areas might only increase overall cost by a small percentage. So a 200% increase in labor costs for my example only resulted in a 16% increase in overall cost.

However the thing that you are missing, is the agricultural companies that are illegally hiring illegals, are making more profits than they are legally allowed to. That means that profit margins, wholesale and retail costs along with labor costs are being artificially deflated or inflated anyway.

These corporations and companies are passing on costs to you and I, the legal taxpayer, to provide health care, housing and many other costs. So in reality you are fighting and paying for the illegal profiting by unscrupulous businesses.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
The US has never had this long a period of endlessly high numbers of poor immigrants. Thats just legal immigrants, throw in illegals and the problem is worse.
As for the massive language barrier, that doesn't seem to be such a problem for most asian immigrants, russian immigrants, etc etc.
And their study showed that second generation latinos also seem to fall behind other ethnic groups.
Those aren't meaningless unless you want to ignore them.

Again... language barrier...

Look at it this way: most immigrants from other countries come to the US knowing English. Latinos generally do not. It would be as if france was all of the sudden an attractive place to live for everyone... The British would have a better time coping with the enormous language barrier since they learn french in school than would Americans....

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again, you childishly point out typos and mistakes, rather than address issues. I guarantee I will make more misspellings and typos, so now is the perfect time to be a grown up little boy and get over it.



In my example of totally made up numbers, I illustrated how an increase in one or a couple of areas might only increase overall cost by a small percentage. So a 200% increase in labor costs for my example only resulted in a 16% increase in overall cost.

However the thing that you are missing, is the agricultural companies that are illegally hiring illegals, are making more profits than they are legally allowed to. That means that profit margins, wholesale and retail costs along with labor costs are being artificially deflated or inflated anyway.

These corporations and companies are passing on costs to you and I, the legal taxpayer, to provide health care, housing and many other costs. So in reality you are fighting and paying for the illegal profiting by unscrupulous businesses.

We aren't talking about illegals here. We are talking about legal immigrants whom steve666 doesn't want any more.

[midwinter]

Totally off-topic, but this is one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Originally posted by NaplesX
In my example of totally made up numbers, I illustrated. . . .

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Again... language barrier...

Look at it this way: most immigrants from other countries come to the US knowing English. Latinos generally do not. It would be as if france was all of the sudden an attractive place to live for everyone... The British would have a better time coping with the enormous language barrier since they learn french in school than would Americans....

Really? All those Russians, South Vietnamese, Koreans, Chinese, etc come here speaking English? You wouldn't know it since there are 7 Chinese language newspapers in NY alone.
I think you are mistaken.

[Gilsch]

By the way. Calling Samuelson a "respected" economist was funny. Very funny.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gilsch
By the way. Calling Samuelson a "respected" economist was funny. Very funny.

Considering that fact that he wrote the book I used in my College Economics Course, I would say that he's respected.

Why do you think he isn't?

[Aurora]

Originally posted by steve666
Really? All those Russians, South Vietnamese, Koreans, Chinese, etc come here speaking English? You wouldn't know it since there are 7 Chinese language newspapers in NY alone.
I think you are mistaken. Spinning things, bottom line was people who came to America learned English, they had to. Now days due to our Dumbass politicians the rest of the country will need to learn spanish to keep up with these illegals who are overtaking our country while the Fed is looking the otherway because of the $$$. Our country has been screwed more by its own politics,congress and presidents then any Enemy ever could have caused.

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by steve666
Why do you think he isn't? Is that what you read at "FAIR"? He's a financial journalist with a B.A in government.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Really? All those Russians, South Vietnamese, Koreans, Chinese, etc come here speaking English? You wouldn't know it since there are 7 Chinese language newspapers in NY alone.
I think you are mistaken.

Nope.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gilsch
Is that what you read at "FAIR"? He's a financial journalist with a B.A in government.

And Newsweek is now hiring hacks?
Please, you don't like him because he has an opinion different from your own.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Nope.

Yep.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
Yep.

No. You are wrong, seriously.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
No. You are wrong, seriously.

actually, I am correct. Most immigrants come here not knowing a word of English.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
actually, I am correct. Most immigrants come here not knowing a word of English.

Not a word?

That is just wrong.

Most immigrants?

I never claimed that most immigrants did anything, I specifically said most immigrants from outside of latin america come to the US with significant english skills (significant as measured versus our own native dual language speaking proclivities)...

Re: Your retarded chinese paper example. I never claimed that people forget how to speak their native language when they get to the US.

You really don't know what you are talking about...

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by steve666
And Newsweek is now hiring hacks?
Please, you don't like him because he has an opinion different from your own. I didn't say he was a hack or that I didn't like him. You said he was a "respected economist". Prove it. Don't forget the name of his book you used in that College Economics Course.
Originally posted by steve666
thats why i thought some of you might find it difficult to jump all over a respected economist writing an article that FAIR could have written itself Prove he's a "respected economist".

By your own words, I guess if you lied about him being a "respected economist" he must be a hack. :D

[Gene Clean]

A respected economist is any economist that will support 666's agenda. Just look at his nickname for example. That's a 'respected nickname'.

[midwinter]

And now we're completely off track.

1) Is "immigration" actually out of control?

2) Can illegal immigration be stopped?

3) What would the effects of any policy have on the economy?

[Aurora]

1. Yes, thats fact
2. Yes, Just look at the minuteman with no budget.
3. Little, but George has made such a mess of things that even million's of illegal's $$$ mean more to him then his "war" on Terror and so the illegals,the Al-queda' and anyone else is allowed to roam in to make up for his Party's Fiscal mess. We can spend Billion's in Iraq but cant spare a few bucks for the border.Its Amazing Discrace.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by Aurora
1. Yes, thats fact
2. Yes, Just look at the minuteman with no budget.
3. Little, but George has made such a mess of things that even million's of illegal's $$$ mean more to him then his "war" on Terror and so the illegals,the Al-queda' and anyone else is allowed to roam in to make up for his Party's Fiscal mess. We can spend Billion's in Iraq but cant spare a few bucks for the border.Its Amazing Discrace.

2. NO. GODDAMN IT ALL. LOOK. THE VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS OVERSTAY THEIR LEGALLY OBTAINED WORK VISAS AND ARE NOT BORDER HOPPERS.

[Aurora]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
2. NO. GODDAMN IT ALL. LOOK. THE VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS OVERSTAY THEIR LEGALLY OBTAINED WORK VISAS AND ARE NOT BORDER HOPPERS. Its both for sure but i would rather have "knowns" in this country then unknowns who are strolling across the borders by the thousands & thousands. Why are you so opposed to enforcing our border. We just suppose to ignore this and continue the soaking of the American taxpayer on everything? Sorry, there is a line where my country ends and others begin.Immigration is out of control thanks to a Washington who is out of control. Big Business.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Aurora
1. Yes, thats fact

Ok. I'd like to see some facts. Maybe you can find something on the US Immigration office web page to substantiate this claim. Thanks.

2. Yes, Just look at the minuteman with no budget.

Look at them do what? Do you have data about their effectiveness?

3. Little, but George has made such a mess of things that even million's of illegal's $$$ mean more to him then his "war" on Terror and so the illegals,the Al-queda' and anyone else is allowed to roam in to make up for his Party's Fiscal mess. We can spend Billion's in Iraq but cant spare a few bucks for the border.Its Amazing Discrace. [/B]

Bush's various wars are beside the point. What would the effects be of severely limiting the number of immigrants—illegal or otherwise—who currently hold jobs?

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Not a word?

That is just wrong.

Most immigrants?

I never claimed that most immigrants did anything, I specifically said most immigrants from outside of latin america come to the US with significant english skills (significant as measured versus our own native dual language speaking proclivities)...

Re: Your retarded chinese paper example. I never claimed that people forget how to speak their native language when they get to the US.

You really don't know what you are talking about...

You honestly believe that the poor Chinese and South Vietnamese immigrants come here speaking English?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
You honestly believe that the poor Chinese and South Vietnamese immigrants come here speaking English?

My point again.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gilsch
I didn't say he was a hack or that I didn't like him. You said he was a "respected economist". Prove it. Don't forget the name of his book you used in that College Economics Course.
Prove he's a "respected economist".

By your own words, I guess if you lied about him being a "respected economist" he must be a hack. :D

I went to College over 20 years ago, the chance of me remembering the name of the book is about the same as me remembering anything I actually learned in college :smokey:

Samuelson is very well known. I can't make you believe that he is respected, but I really don't know why you would doubt it out of hand.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
A respected economist is any economist that will support 666's agenda. Just look at his nickname for example. That's a 'respected nickname'.

I never said that, however it seems that if a economist agrees with me on immigration than to you and the rest of the three stooges, he can't be respected.

I don't believe he has ever written anything on immigration before.

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
My point again.

And your point is?
Most immigrants come to this country looking for opportunity. Not all are poor, but most are

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
And your point is?
Most immigrants come to this country looking for opportunity. Not all are poor, but most are

My point throughout this whole thing has been that the larger, more important issue being dredged up with all this anti-immigrant nonsense is not racism, but classism. Your remark about poor immigrants was precisely what I'm talking about.

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
My point throughout this whole thing has been that the larger, more important issue being dredged up with all this anti-immigrant nonsense is not racism, but classism. Your remark about poor immigrants was precisely what I'm talking about.

If it were just about classism, then the same argument could be made for all poor immigrant groups.
Hispanic immigrants, even second generation, have a harder time becoming upwardly mobile (and I dont mean rich I mean middle class), graduate high school at lower rates, go to college at lower rates, than other immigrant groups.

Since they are the largest group of immigrants that does not bode well for this country.
Should latinos continue being the largest group of immigrants into this country or should we change the mix to allow fewer latinos and more asians and europeans?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
If it were just about classism, then the same argument could be made for all poor immigrant groups.

It can. And it is.

Hispanic immigrants, even second generation, have a harder time becoming upwardly mobile (and I dont mean rich I mean middle class), graduate high school at lower rates, go to college at lower rates, than other immigrant groups.

In other words, there are class issues.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by Aurora
Its both for sure but i would rather have "knowns" in this country then unknowns who are strolling across the borders by the thousands & thousands. Why are you so opposed to enforcing our border. We just suppose to ignore this and continue the soaking of the American taxpayer on everything? Sorry, there is a line where my country ends and others begin.Immigration is out of control thanks to a Washington who is out of control. Big Business.

Put it this way: It is a small, tiny, miniscule minority of illegal immigrants in the US that actually cross the boarder illegally.

Do we really track the illegals who overstay their work visas? Really?

Heh.

Boarder jumpers are a problem, sure. But they aren't the source of all of our issues here, nor the source of the problems steve666 loves to blame on them, nor a drop in the pool of illegals.

You want to spend billions and billions enforcing the boarder to a feverish pitch when the flood of illegal immigrants will still be happening because they cross that well guarded boarder legally.

The average illegal immigrant is a mexican who crosses the boarder with visa in hand and becomes illegal only when his work visa expires.

He isn't a boarder jumper.

There is no reason to believe that terrorist won't use legal means to get into the US, since that is what they have done in the past. It is idiotic to say the least, to suggest that people intent on causing the US harm would risk having their plots foiled by something as minor as a boarder crossing.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
You honestly believe that the poor Chinese and South Vietnamese immigrants come here speaking English?

They know more English than you know Mandarin or Vietnamese (much more).

[midwinter]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You want to spend billions and billions enforcing the boarder to a feverish pitch when the flood of illegal immigrants will still be happening because they cross that well guarded boarder legally.

Like I said earlier: a moat or mutant dogs would do the trick.

Ooh! A moat filled with mutant water-breathing labradors!

[Aurora]

I wonder what country hardeehar lives in?, and i guess Minuteman are on the border because there isnt anyone coming across? This is the kind of spin crap our govt would push concerning the border. Spin it into anything but the truth. Just Blabber and talk and if you make enough smoke and lies no one will Know the truth. You have been watching to much George Bush. Your miniscle comment is wrong,your overstayed my visa and no one is watching is right.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by Aurora
I wonder what country hardeehar lives in?, and i guess Minuteman are on the border because there isnt anyone coming across? This is the kind of spin crap our govt would push concerning the border. Spin it into anything but the truth. Just Blabber and talk and if you make enough smoke and lies no one will Know the truth. You have been watching to much George Bush. Your miniscle comment is wrong,your overstayed my visa and no one is watching is right.

No I am not wrong. I looked up the statistics. I read actual documents prepared by people outside of the government.

What have you done but speculate?

Edit: I live in the birth place of this nation thank you very much, asshat.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Put it this way: It is a small, tiny, miniscule minority of illegal immigrants in the US that actually cross the boarder illegally.

Do we really track the illegals who overstay their work visas? Really?

Heh.

Boarder jumpers are a problem, sure. But they aren't the source of all of our issues here, nor the source of the problems steve666 loves to blame on them, nor a drop in the pool of illegals.

You want to spend billions and billions enforcing the boarder to a feverish pitch when the flood of illegal immigrants will still be happening because they cross that well guarded boarder legally.

The average illegal immigrant is a mexican who crosses the boarder with visa in hand and becomes illegal only when his work visa expires.

He isn't a boarder jumper.

There is no reason to believe that terrorist won't use legal means to get into the US, since that is what they have done in the past. It is idiotic to say the least, to suggest that people intent on causing the US harm would risk having their plots foiled by something as minor as a boarder crossing.

First off-tiny, miniscule? It is estimated that hundreds of thousands illegals gain entry into this country by hopping the border. I don't consider that tiny-why do you think that the minutemen are drawing attention to the border insecurity?
As for terrorists, the legal means of entry are being closed to them. According to Homeland Security 30-40% of illegals caught at the border are not Mexicans. Many of them were from Muslim countries. There have been Al-Queda operatives caught and detained in Mexico. They werent there to hit mexican targets.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
They know more English than you know Mandarin or Vietnamese (much more).

yeh, sure

[steve666]

Originally posted by Aurora
I wonder what country hardeehar lives in?, and i guess Minuteman are on the border because there isnt anyone coming across? This is the kind of spin crap our govt would push concerning the border. Spin it into anything but the truth. Just Blabber and talk and if you make enough smoke and lies no one will Know the truth. You have been watching to much George Bush. Your miniscle comment is wrong,your overstayed my visa and no one is watching is right.

hardeeharhar lives in his own little world, where the truth doesn't exist. It might upset him too much.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Edit: I live in the birth place of this nation thank you very much, asshat.

You live in England? ;)

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
According to Homeland Security 30-40% of illegals caught at the border are not Mexicans.

Do you have a source for this statistic?

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
First off-tiny, miniscule? It is estimated that hundreds of thousands illegals gain entry into this country by hopping the border. I don't consider that tiny-why do you think that the minutemen are drawing attention to the border insecurity?
As for terrorists, the legal means of entry are being closed to them. According to Homeland Security 30-40% of illegals caught at the border are not Mexicans. Many of them were from Muslim countries. There have been Al-Queda operatives caught and detained in Mexico. They werent there to hit mexican targets.

Lets talk real numbers, and not speculations (estimates)...

The US has roughly 1 million legal immigrants per year. 10% of these come from Mexico, legally. Are you suggesting that boarder jumpers are outstripping legal immigration from most of the world?

Or are you just shooting your mouthpiece off?

Could there be hundreds of thousand boarder jumpers in this nation, sure, but if you consider the facts, 200000 people crossing the boarder in a year requires somewhere on the order of 1000 people per day getting across and that just isn't happening.
So wherever you are getting that number from, it may well be the sum over many years.

More reasonable estimates suggest on the order of a thousand to ten thousand boarder jumpers a year, or 1-10% of Mexican immigrants, and 0.1-1% of all immigrants. Tiny. See?

Lets talk more facts. 1/10 people currently living in this country are foreign born. This is the highest percentage in quite some time. That is what the minute men are fearing, loss of their Americaness same as the know-nothings before them...

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
hardeeharhar lives in his own little world, where the truth doesn't exist. It might upset him too much.

Truth exists. It just isn't on your side.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Lets talk real numbers, and not speculations (estimates)...

The US has roughly 1 million legal immigrants per year. 10% of these come from Mexico, legally. Are you suggesting that boarder jumpers are outstripping legal immigration from most of the world?

Or are you just shooting your mouthpiece off?

Could there be hundreds of thousand boarder jumpers in this nation, sure, but if you consider the facts, 200000 people crossing the boarder in a year requires somewhere on the order of 1000 people per day getting across and that just isn't happening.
So wherever you are getting that number from, it may well be the sum over many years.

More reasonable estimates suggest on the order of a thousand to ten thousand boarder jumpers a year, or 1-10% of Mexican immigrants, and 0.1-1% of all immigrants. Tiny. See?

Lets talk more facts. 1/10 people currently living in this country are foreign born. This is the highest percentage in quite some time. That is what the minute men are fearing, loss of their Americaness same as the know-nothings before them...

There are an estimated 11 million illegals currently living in the US.
There are hundreds of thousands crossing the borders illegally every year.
Accept it, deal with it, you'll be happy you did.
There are far more than 10,000 border jumpers every year. Are you just pulling number out of your ass?
And then you jump right on the racist bandwagon in the end, the sure sign of someone who has no argument.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Truth exists. It just isn't on your side.

Oh, but it is, and it frightens you to admit you were wrong.

[steve666]

Some numbers:

INS estimates that for every 3 caught, 1 enter

INS APPREHENSION DATA -- FY'61 to FY'96
1961
88,823
1962
92,758
1963
88,712
1964
86,597
1965
110,371
1966
138,520
1967
161,608
1968
212,057
1969
283,557
1970
345,353
1971
420,126
1972
505,949
1973
655,968
1974
788,145
1975
766,600
1976
1,097,739*
1977
1,042,215
1978
1,057,977
1979
1,076,418
1980
910,361
1981
975,780
1982
970,246
1983
1,251,357
1984
1,246,981
1985
1,348,749
1986
1,767,400
1987
1,190,488
1988
1,008,145
1989
954,243
1990
1,169,939
1991
1,197,875
1992
1,258,482
1993
1,327,259
1994
1,094,717
1995
1,394,554
1996
1,649,986

* 1976 data include 15 months when the fiscal year end was moved to Sept.30.

Updated 3/98


It is difficult to have an exact figure because the illegal nature of their presence prevents any enumeration, but the U.S. Census Bureau estimated 8.7 million illegal aliens were here in 2000, and immigration officials estimate that the illegal alien population grows by as many as 500,000 every year.

The United States has a major problem with visitors overstaying their visas, taking jobs and staying illegally as if they were immigrants. A chief reason for the problem is that we have no effective tracking system for visitors to our country. The most recent estimate of the INS is that about 40 percent of the nine to eleven_million illegal alien residents in the United States originally entered the country with nonimmigrant visas.

[hardeeharhar]

There are numbers of illegal immigrants caught inside of our boarders...

What does that have to do with boarder jumpers?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
There are numbers of illegal immigrants caught inside of our boarders...

What does that have to do with boarder jumpers?

They apparently don't pay sales taxes. ;)

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by steve666
There are an estimated 11 million illegals currently living in the US.
There are hundreds of thousands crossing the borders illegally every year.
Accept it, deal with it, you'll be happy you did.
There are far more than 10,000 border jumpers every year. Are you just pulling number out of your ass?
And then you jump right on the racist bandwagon in the end, the sure sign of someone who has no argument.

Your numbers have nothing to do with eachother. How many of those illegal immigrants actually crossed the boarder illegally? Find me some data....

[hardeeharhar]

I looked up the data the INS keeps on illegal aliens. They indicate that the number of illegal aliens in this country grows by 250000 or so a year. Unless all of these individuals are boarder jumpers, steve666 is full of shit.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I looked up the data the INS keeps on illegal aliens. They indicate that the number of illegal aliens in this country grows by 250000 or so a year. Unless all of these individuals are boarder jumpers, steve666 is full of shit.

Well, as you've been pointing out all along, there are various kinds of "illegalness" at issue here:

1) Legal immigrants who have overstayed their visas.
2) Border jumpers.
3) Fake passport holders.

My sense is that the vast majority of illegal aliens are in the 1st category.

[hardeeharhar]

I want people to poor over the data before they draw conculsions by word of mouth.

That is my only hope.

In any event, I have a week long conference on something completely unrelated to immigration law enforcement (bioorganic chemistry, in fact) starting tomorrow morning so I will leave this thread in the trusted hands of other reasonable members of this board.

I will make sure the door doesn't slam me in the ass on the way out...

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by midwinter
Well, as you've been pointing out all along, there are various kinds of "illegalness" at issue here:

1) Legal immigrants who have overstayed their visas.
2) Border jumpers.
3) Fake passport holders.

My sense is that the vast majority of illegal aliens are in the 1st category.

And that is what the data says as well...

[midwinter]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I want people to poor over the data before they draw conculsions by word of mouth.

That is my only hope.

In any event, I have a week long conference on something completely unrelated to immigration law enforcement (bioorganic chemistry, in fact) starting tomorrow morning so I will leave this thread in the trusted hands of other reasonable members of this board.

I will make sure the door doesn't slam me in the ass on the way out...

Slacker! If I can comment on threads like this while at a conference on Victorian women's writing, you can do the same! ;)

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
There are numbers of illegal immigrants caught inside of our boarders...

What does that have to do with boarder jumpers?

How do you think they got here, by osmosis?
Those numbers also shot down your 'tiny' number of border jumpers-60% of the total are jumpers. From what I remember from School, 60% is a huge number, a majority in fact.:wow:

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Your numbers have nothing to do with eachother. How many of those illegal immigrants actually crossed the boarder illegally? Find me some data....

You must have missed my post, look up

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I looked up the data the INS keeps on illegal aliens. They indicate that the number of illegal aliens in this country grows by 250000 or so a year. Unless all of these individuals are boarder jumpers, steve666 is full of shit.

steve666 got his numbers from the Govmnt

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
Well, as you've been pointing out all along, there are various kinds of "illegalness" at issue here:

1) Legal immigrants who have overstayed their visas.
2) Border jumpers.
3) Fake passport holders.

My sense is that the vast majority of illegal aliens are in the 1st category.

And the INS says that it is not #1
Regardless, look at the chart I showed you, and divide the number shown by 3. That is a hell of a lot of border jumpers-not a 'tiny' amount.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
How do you think they got here, by osmosis?
Those numbers also shot down your 'tiny' number of border jumpers-60% of the total are jumpers. From what I remember from School, 60% is a huge number, a majority in fact.:wow:

HHH's point was that all illegal aliens apprehended are not "border jumpers." Many of them will have had expired visas.

[steve666]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I want people to poor over the data before they draw conculsions by word of mouth.

That is my only hope.

In any event, I have a week long conference on something completely unrelated to immigration law enforcement (bioorganic chemistry, in fact) starting tomorrow morning so I will leave this thread in the trusted hands of other reasonable members of this board.

I will make sure the door doesn't slam me in the ass on the way out...

coward

[e1618978]

Originally posted by steve666
coward

Do you have any real data to back up your position?

[steve666]

Originally posted by e1618978
Do you have any real data to back up your position?

My position that he is a coward?
Well, I could say that he left as soon as he saw he was losing the argument but he was losing it from the beginning.
So, I guess that doesn't prove him to be a coward.

Lets just say I was getting back at him for previously calling me a coward because I couldn't stay up all night responding to his inane views.

I believe in revenge
666:devil:

[e1618978]

No, I was talking about the percentage of illegal immegrants who come over the border vs over-stay their visa.

[steve666]

Originally posted by e1618978
No, I was talking about the percentage of illegal immegrants who come over the border vs over-stay their visa.

>The United States has a major problem with visitors overstaying their visas, taking jobs and staying illegally as if they were immigrants. A chief reason for the problem is that we have no effective tracking system for visitors to our country. The most recent estimate of the INS is that about 40 percent of the nine to eleven_million illegal alien residents in the United States originally entered the country with nonimmigrant visas.<

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
Lets just say I was getting back at him for previously calling me a coward because I couldn't stay up all night responding to his inane views.

I believe in revenge
666:devil:

That was me who called you a coward. If you do believe in revenge, you don't seem to care much about accuracy.

[steve666]

Originally posted by midwinter
That was me who called you a coward. If you do believe in revenge, you don't seem to care much about accuracy.

oops
:embarrass

[e1618978]

Originally posted by steve666
>The United States has a major problem with visitors overstaying their visas, taking jobs and staying illegally as if they were immigrants. A chief reason for the problem is that we have no effective tracking system for visitors to our country. The most recent estimate of the INS is that about 40 percent of the nine to eleven_million illegal alien residents in the United States originally entered the country with nonimmigrant visas.<

http://www.cis.org/articles/1997/IR28/5million.html

increase in the illegal population is 275,000 annually

The INS estimates that 41 percent of the illegal population are overstayers and 59 percent are EWIs.

So this seems to support both of your points. Entry without inspection is a real problem - 181,000 per year (the 275k figure is growth accounting for death, total illegal imegration is 420K total).

It is indeed much less than the 1m legal immigrants - so hardeehar is right there.

Mexicans compose 54% of illegal population, so you are right there.

I don't think that your 11 million figure is right, because it was about 4 million in 1996, according to the web page.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
http://www.cis.org/articles/1997/IR28/5million.html

increase in the illegal population is 275,000 annually

The INS estimates that 41 percent of the illegal population are overstayers and 59 percent are EWIs.

So this seems to support both of your points. Entry without inspection is a real problem - 181,000 per year (the 275k figure is growth accounting for death, total illegal imegration is 420K total).

It is indeed much less than the 1m legal immigrants - so hardeehar is right there.

Mexicans compose 54% of illegal population, so you are right there.

I don't think that your 11 million figure is right, because it was about 4 million in 1996, according to the web page.

THANK YOU E-NUMBERS FOR BRINGING SOME ACTUAL FACTS TO THIS DISCUSSION.

Now, the next question for me is how many of those Mexican EWI are seasonal or otherwise return to Mexico.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by midwinter
THANK YOU E-NUMBERS FOR BRINGING SOME ACTUAL FACTS TO THIS DISCUSSION.

Now, the next question for me is how many of those Mexican EWI are seasonal or otherwise return to Mexico.

It says that the numbers do not include short-term illegals, who stay less than one year.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
It says that the numbers do not include short-term illegals, who stay less than one year.

Gotcha.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by e1618978
It says that the numbers do not include short-term illegals, who stay less than one year.

One interesting point. If steve666 is right about the 11M illegals, then at 275k per year the illegal immegrant population is growing at 2.5% (the same as the population growth of the US as a whole/all races, so the percentage of the population that is illegal is not changing).

That means that only 31% of the hispanic population is illegal, and that percentage is shrinking because the 5% growth of the hispanic population far outstrips the 2.5% growth in the illegal hispanic population.

You will have to speak spanish some day soon, but it will not be because of illegal immigration.

[steve666]

Originally posted by e1618978
http://www.cis.org/articles/1997/IR28/5million.html

increase in the illegal population is 275,000 annually

The INS estimates that 41 percent of the illegal population are overstayers and 59 percent are EWIs.

So this seems to support both of your points. Entry without inspection is a real problem - 181,000 per year (the 275k figure is growth accounting for death, total illegal imegration is 420K total).

It is indeed much less than the 1m legal immigrants - so hardeehar is right there.

Mexicans compose 54% of illegal population, so you are right there.

I don't think that your 11 million figure is right, because it was about 4 million in 1996, according to the web page.

Its hard to get a handle on the figures because some is guestimation.

[steve666]

Originally posted by e1618978
One interesting point. If steve666 is right about the 11M illegals, then at 275k per year the illegal immegrant population is growing at 2.5% (the same as the population growth of the US as a whole/all races, so the percentage of the population that is illegal is not changing).

That means that only 31% of the hispanic population is illegal, and that percentage is shrinking because the 5% growth of the hispanic population far outstrips the 2.5% growth in the illegal hispanic population.

You will have to speak spanish some day soon, but it will not be because of illegal immigration.

If so, 31% is still a high number.
As for speaking Spanish, I don't think Bubba in Alabama is going to start learning to speak Spanish anytime soon.
Speaking of which, I also belong to USEnglish, a group trying to get a Constitutional Amendment declaring English to be our official language.8)
http://www.usenglish.org/

[midwinter]

Originally posted by steve666
If so, 31% is still a high number.

Yes. But as E#s pointed out, that number is shrinking and will no doubt continue to do so. It took decades for the number to get that high. It'll take decades for it to go back down. Of course, one way to discourage illegal immigration is to help out the Mexican economy as much as possible.

As for speaking Spanish, I don't think Bubba in Alabama is going to start learning to speak Spanish anytime soon.

Bubba in Alabama (and FWIW my uncle Bubba lives in the cultural Mecca of the South, Mississippi, not that cesspool, Alabama. Yuck!) has little or no reason to learn Spanish. But the Bubbas here in Utah sure took to Spanish just fine. I suspect that if the 35% black population of my hometown were magically transformed into Spanish speaking hispanic folks, my relatives would suck it up and learn a few words and phrases if it meant getting something done.

Speaking of which, I also belong to USEnglish, a group trying to get a Constitutional Amendment declaring English to be our official language.8)
http://www.usenglish.org/ [/B]

Now why on Earth does that not surprise me? ;)

You know, I've always found that movement strange, considering most people in America can't speak English worth a damn, anyway.

Cheers

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by steve666
Samuelson is very well known. I can't make you believe that he is respected, but I really don't know why you would doubt it out of hand.
:lol: My goodness. Stop playing dumb. To my count you have claimed Robert Samuelson is a "respected ECONOMIST" or ECONOMIST exactly five times in this thread.Originally posted by steve666
Sounds like a mainstream economist is coming around to the seriousness of the situation.He is a mainstream economist pointing out the problems with our current immigration system.To me, to that economist, to the fellow that did the research it sure seems to be that way.My discussion is based on an article that a respected economist wrote and the dissection of it.thats why i thought some of you might find it difficult to jump all over a respected economist writing an article When I pointed out that he's a financial journalist with a B.A in government- just like his bio in Newsweek says- you dismissively said:" And Newsweek is now hiring hacks?"

So by your own definition if this guy isn't the "respected ECONOMIST" you've been claiming that he is, then he's a hack. Sweet irony. :lol:

Edit: Still waiting for the title of that book.

[midwinter]

Glisch: are you an American? If you're not then GET THE HELL OFFA MAH LAWN!!!

;)