PDA

View Full Version : More on the Sauds....


segovius
06-19-2005, 04:47 AM
As Bush yesterday yet again stated that the US invaded Iraq because of 911 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usiraqbushattacks) the question of the relationship with the Saudi Wahabis - the sect that make up almost 100% of Islamic terrorist groups (if you discount the Iraqi insurgents who would not in any case exist if their country had not been invaded) - again is worth considering. Particularly in the light of the recent announcement that (despite links with the notorious A Q Khan) Saudi have been declared exempt (http://smh.com.au/news/World/Saudis-exempt-from-nuclear-inspection/2005/06/17/1118869063778.html?oneclick=true) from nuclear inspections.

So how has this situation come about ? That the one Islamic sect that is synonymous with terrorism, which accounts for the vast majority of terrorist acts (including 911 and all al Qaeda, Zarqawi activities) and which are a heretical Islamic sect representing the views of less than 5% of all Muslims not only is exempt from censure in the WOT, regarded as an ally regardless of whatever they do (much like Israel) and (and this is my point in this thread), are accepted as representative of what Islam actually is ?

This is a situation that has always puzzled me and it seems that the answer is that there is an organised campaign to discredit and neutralize Islam (and has been for a long time) and the Sauds are front-line soldiers in that effort.

This would explain:

a) Their involvement in terrorism
b) How they consistently are never called to account for that involvement whereas other Islamic countries with no involvement are
c) Their status as 'special allies'

So, here's some points from the above link (which I urge anyone interested in these matters to read) which I throw out with brief comments for discussion:

The West and Islam have had a long era of compatibility, but this history has been denied to foster the myth of a "Clash of Civilizations". In order to inflame the sentiments of the West against Islam, our attention has been focused on the specter of fanatical Wahhabism, and more specifically, its most notorious exponent, Osama bin Laden.

It is true that the west and Islam (and Judaism) do have a long harmonious relationship: over 800 years in medieval Spain. What is most surprising is that this is not widely known - where it is there are numerous attempts to deny it.

So why is it not known ? What is the mechanism whereby this knowledge is suppressed ?

the Globalists have had a hand in shaping and financing all the terrorist organizations of the twentieth century, including the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, Hamas of Palestine and the Afghan Mujahideen. But the history of their duplicity dates farther back still, to the 18th Century, when British Freemasons created the Wahhabi sect of Saudi Arabia itself, to further their imperialistic objectives.

That a British spy by the name of Hempher was responsible for shaping of the extreme tenets of Wahhabism was mentioned in a Turkish work, Mir'at al-Haramain, by Ayyub Sabri Pasha between 1933-1938. British policy in its colonies often involved the creation of deviant sects, in order to Divide and Conquer, as was the case with the Ahmadiyya sect of Islam in India in the nineteenth century.

I do not personally know what the writer intends by the term 'globalists' and I view it with suspicion. However, there is no doubt that the US, UK and Israel all funded terror organisations.

It is well known that the US financed Osama at one point - of course there are 'justifications'. Israel are known to have initially created Hamas but again, the excuse is that the project 'went out of control'. But maybe it stayed in control.

Similarly with the Ahmadiyya and the British - this is widely believed and imo, it is true.

But this Hempher business is the most interesting and discussion-worthy (for those that are interested here is Hempher's first-hand account (http://asmar.perso.ch/wahhabies/htm/spy1.htm) ) :

The document is a first-hand account by Hempher of his mission for his government, which sent him to the Middle East to discover ways to undermine the Ottoman Empire. Among the vices the British were to promote were racism and nationalism, alcohol, gambling, fornication and tempting Muslim women to uncover themselves.

But most important was the strategy to "insert heresies into Muslims' creedal tenets and then criticize Islam for being a religion of terror." To this purpose, Hempher located a particularly corrupt individual by the name of Mohammed Ibn Adbul Wahhab.

To understand the brand of fanaticism that Wahhabism inculcated, it is first necessary to recognize that Islam called upon all Muslims, regardless of their race or nationality, to see themselves as brothers in faith. The killing of another Muslim was strictly forbidden.

So, we have a situation where before the emergence of Wahabism, Muslims would never kill each other under any circumstances. This rule existed for over 1200 years.

Then we have a heretical doctrine (Wahabism) that is created in the very place and time where it would be most beneficial to the west and it introduces the idea that Muslims may kill each other for the first (and only) time.

The link to terrorism is obvious.

Harald
06-19-2005, 05:52 AM
Two issues:

1) This Hempher stuff is entirely credible. The Brits did that kind of stuff over and over again -- they were the first to gas the Kurds, after all.

but

2) Special ally? Uh yeh. OIL segovius, OIL.

Aurora
06-19-2005, 08:22 AM
I do seem to remember that Osama and most of his Terrorist were from Saudi Arabia, Not Iraq as George likes to say. I also remember that extreme hate is allowed and even helped by the same Saudi Kingdom. Oil & Oil. We dont hear about many arrests from this place do we? Politics sprinkled with B.S & Spin so we got 911 = Iraq from the Haliburton Pushers vietnam dodgers. Its fine for you or your kid to die from our crap but when it was our time........we werent even close to vietnam.

segovius
06-19-2005, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Harald
Two issues:

1) This Hempher stuff is entirely credible. The Brits did that kind of stuff over and over again -- they were the first to gas the Kurds, after all.

but

2) Special ally? Uh yeh. OIL segovius, OIL.

It's a kind of Unholy Alliance Harald - one side wants oil and one side want Islam exterminated.

They have merely joined forces to see what they can achieve - luckily it seems to be very little. Not without a Laurel and Hardy-esque chaos and mayhem anyway.

e1618978
06-19-2005, 01:19 PM
I think that Saudi Arabia is pollitically unstable, and will fall in a revolution sooner or later. The USA would be better suited to wait for the fall, and then go in and form a democracy - rather than invading directly.

A US invasion would bolster support for the royal family, if it happened while they were still in power.

segovius
06-19-2005, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by e1618978
and then go in and form a democracy...

No offence but I think I'd rather have the Saudis....

:no:

e1618978
06-19-2005, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by segovius
No offence but I think I'd rather have the Saudis....

:no:

Are you sure you are thinking clearly about that? You would rather have the oppressive wahabist aristocrats oppressing the masses, rather than have them form a representative democracy with US help?

I think that your anti-US sentiment is clouding your judgement.

segovius
06-19-2005, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by e1618978
Are you sure you are thinking clearly about that? You would rather have the oppressive wahabist aristocrats oppressing the masses, rather than have them form a representative democracy with US help?

I think that your anti-US sentiment is clouding your judgement.

Not so.

The Saudis are universally despised in the Islamic world and sooner or later Islamic movements will displace them.

It has happened many times historically that regimes occupying Arabia and controlling Mecca and Medina have been displaced. it is in the run of things and will happen again.

However, having witnessed the US methods of promoting 'democracy' in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as historically in other regions, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Moreover, there is no such thing as the US promoting 'democracy' - there is self-serving hypocrisy, cant and general death/chaos - all in the service of US personal business interests (and those of their symbiotic partner Israel of course) .

The current US administration is committed to the extermination or neutralization of Islam and the Saudis are an essential cog in this grand scheme. That is the point of this thread btw.

If you think the US move against the Sauds you are in cloud-cuckoo land. Even when members of the pro-democracy movements there get killed or tortured by the Saudi Gestapo the US report it as 'battles with terrorists'.

e1618978
06-19-2005, 02:29 PM
The current US administration is committed to the extermination or neutralization of Islam and the Saudis are an essential cog in this grand scheme. That is the point of this thread btw.

That is fine with me. I doubt that extreme christianity could sustain itself if all the other extreme religions folded - they need an enemy, or else they will all get bored and stop going to church.

segovius
06-19-2005, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by e1618978
That is fine with me. I doubt that extreme christianity could sustain itself if all the other extreme religions folded - they need an enemy, or else they will all get bored and stop going to church.

Your enemy may have other ideas though - and they may (will by definition) be brighter ones....

e1618978
06-19-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by segovius
Your enemy may have other ideas though - and they may (will by definition) be brighter ones....

Islam is not my enemy, except that the Islamists keep blowing shit up.

Really, they are both my enemy.

segovius
06-19-2005, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by e1618978
Islam is not my enemy, except that the Islamists keep blowing shit up.

Really, they are both my enemy.

That's unfortunate then isn't it ?

Personally I try to avoid having enemies I find it bad for the health and vexatious to the spirit - but each to his own I guess.

e1618978
06-19-2005, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by segovius
That's unfortunate then isn't it ?

Personally I try to avoid having enemies I find it bad for the health and vexatious to the spirit - but each to his own I guess.

Maybe enemy is too strong of a word. The problem is that when I vision on how the world could be a better place, religion and tribal fueds keep getting in the way.

Immanuel Goldstein
06-19-2005, 06:41 PM
I see the "Hempher story" has found a new audience. If one is intersted, one can read the version in English from Hizmet Books free of charge (good deal!) (http://www.hizmetbooks.org/British_Spy_Hempher/) or in PDF from some other Turkish publisher (for the same unbeatable price) (http://www.hakikatkitabevi.com/download/english/14-ConfessionsOf%20ABritishSpy.pdf).
Here's an illustrative sample of the work:
Section One
PART TWO
In the Hijrî year 1122, C.E. 1710, the Minister of the Commonwealth sent me to Egypt, Iraq, Hidjaz and Istanbul to act as a spy and to obtain information necessary and sufficient for the breaking up of the Muslims.
It is not all that likely that early eighteenth century Britons called that famous city “Istanbul”. As for the minister and the ministry “of the Commonwealth”, one doubts it actually refers to the Commonwealth Office (which actually existed for very short time in the nineteen-sixties, 1966-1968, before being absorbed by the Foreign Office), since the British Commonwealth did not exist at the time. But we should forgive the Turkish publishers for those naive mistakes as whomever they hired to translate it into English may not have been keen on such details. But then one wonders why wouldn't they have simply used the original English version from which the first edition published in Turkish is supposedly sourced? Perhaps because there is no such “English original” (or the Globe-Wide Meanies had already made that “original version” lost forever, now that sounds more likely)?

For the “Memoirs (alternately: ‘Confessions’) Of A British (sometimes ‘English’) Spy” are claimed, in the text, to have been translated into Turkish from English by the ‘author’ (sic):
As I was translating these confessions of Hempher’s into Turkish,[3]
(…)
[3] Hempher’s confessions were translated into Turkish and, together with the author’s explanations, formed a book. This version is the Eglish translation of that Turkish book.


It has been circulating in the nineteen-thirties in Turkish, among Anti-Kemalist circles who linked the fall of the Ottoman Empire to the rise of the Kingdom of Nadjd which by 1932 became Saudi Arabia.
You can read at various sites a claim that the book was published as a serial in Der Spiegel and then in some big-name French newspaper (whose big name is seldom mentioned); and that it was translated into Arabic by some Lebanese doctor, and from there into English and other languages (the “original English” must have been rendered unavailable by then).

It is quite an amusing read, really. At last we know who the civilised World Community has to blame for giving it the Shia (although some Shia would re-use the book, overlooking the anti-Shia part):
A Jew of Yemen, Abdullah bin Saba’ by name, instigated hostility against the As-hâb among Muslims. Those ignorant people who believed this Jew and bore enmity against the As-hâb were called Shi’î (Shiite). And people who obeyed the hadîth-sherîfs, loved and followed the As-hâb-i-kirâm were called Sunnî (Sunnite).]
So now we all know that not only are the Jews to blame for controlling the U.S. (and indeed most of the World), for the attack on the W.T.C. and the Pentagone, the Wahabbi strain (via the famous Hempher, Freemasonry, and the big banks), for the Muslim Brotherhood (devised in the basement of the Cicurel department store), for Hamas (invented as a joke at a cafe on Dizengoff Street), for the very House of Saud (themselves descendents of Iraqi Jews, as everyone who's anyone knows), and for every year's bad crop; for even the earliest chasm in Islam for which so many believers killed each other (even though its un-islamic, just to show how cunning those schemers are), is of our making. Note that Iraqi and Yemenite Jews get a special mention here, having much of a Yemenite and Baghdadi ancestry myself, I feel honoured by the attention.

All in all, it's not very original. It's the classic Judeo-Masonic plot story, which in the early twentieth century, was the common staple in a certain Continental press.
Those prone to blame all bad things to hidden foreign malice, would undoubtedly accept it as credible without applying as much critical examination as they otherwise would, since it reinforces their a-priori opinion, as Henry Ford used to say:
The important thing is that [it] fit the description of the (…) conspiracy to the most finite details.

As for the actual House of Saud, they're almost as unsavoury as the Romanovs (for whose demise a similar crowd was also blamed in a likewise literature). The war waged by ’Abd-Al-’Aziz Ibn Sa’ud to take over all other Arabian tribes and states (save Yemen and a few British protectorates) makes most later wars in the region look like petty tribal feuds. The Sauds greatly contributed to the oil crises and various consequent economic troubles (notably in many poor countries), and to funding the spread of religious fanaticism for more than twenty years.

And I'll be the first to rejoice when the guest workers from India, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc. , take over that horrid mediaeval theme-park wonderland (and I'll probably be among the first suspected for making it happen).

Gilsch
06-19-2005, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by e1618978
Are you sure you are thinking clearly about that? You would rather have the oppressive wahabist aristocrats oppressing the masses, rather than have them form a representative democracy with US help? Bush doesn't seem to have a problem with that now does he?

Is his anti-US sentiment clouding his judgement?

e1618978
06-19-2005, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Gilsch
Bush doesn't seem to have a problem with that now does he?

Is his anti-US sentiment clouding his judgement?

No - Bush and segovius seem to have the same view for different reasons.

Bush wants the Saudis in power, because they represent stability (just as you would not want a major artery to your heart to collapse).

Segovious wants the Saudis in power, because they represent an oppressive government that will by its very existence trigger an islamist revolt (at least that was my interpretation of what Segovious wanted...)

Fellowship
06-20-2005, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by e1618978
No - Bush and segovius seem to have the same view for different reasons.

Bush wants the Saudis in power, because they represent stability (just as you would not want a major artery to your heart to collapse).

Segovious wants the Saudis in power, because they represent an oppressive government that will by its very existence trigger an islamist revolt (at least that was my interpretation of what Segovious wanted...)

Clever reply and fully lacking integrity.

What else from a neo-con.

Just another con.

Fellows

segovius
06-20-2005, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by e1618978
Segovious wants the Saudis in power, because they represent an oppressive government that will by its very existence trigger an islamist revolt (at least that was my interpretation of what Segovious wanted...)

You haven't been following the thread have you ?

e1618978
06-20-2005, 03:46 PM
The Saudis are universally despised in the Islamic world and sooner or later Islamic movements will displace them.

This is what I was referring to, correct me if my interpretation was wrong.

e1618978
06-20-2005, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Fellowship
Clever reply and fully lacking integrity.

What else from a neo-con.

Just another con.

Fellows

I am a clever fellow, it is true.

But I don't see how I am trying to con anyone - can you point out where I am wrong, instead of a blanket dismissal with no facts?

segovius
06-20-2005, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by e1618978
This is what I was referring to, correct me if my interpretation was wrong.

You have to understand the significance of the land around Mecca and Medina - it is not a question of which sect 'owns' it. A non-Muslim presence there would unite the whole Islamic world - something that nothing else has ever done.

Only another Islamic sect or group could oust the Sauds.