What Would Dick Say About This...

[NaplesX]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/18/otsc.arraf/

"What I see in front of me is absolutely heartbreaking. It's two of four hostages who are being taken away, rescued. They were rescued this morning. They're Iraqi, and they were found in this complex that Marines first thought was a car-bomb factory. In fact, they did find what they believe was a potential car bomb or suicide car bomb.

But inside this complex, they found something even more sinister -- four Iraqis who were handcuffed, their hands and feet bound with steel cuffs. They're now being taken away for medical treatment, one being borne away on a stretcher.

The man in intense pain that they're trying to get into a vehicle, has been tortured, he says, and has all the marks of being tortured with electricity. His back is crisscrossed with welts. The other man is even ... in worse shape. Their crime was to be part of the border police.

The Marines came in here this morning, rescued them. The battle is still raging around us. I don't know if you can hear the gunfire, but this is a major offensive to get rid of insurgents and foreign fighters in this city near the Syrian border....

... Two young men say they don't know why they were seized. They say they didn't hear the voices of their captors, only people whispering in their ear that they were going to be killed.

But we have just watched the two who were most badly treated be carried out of here for medical equipment, one of them on a stretcher, an older man who worked for the border police, along with his colleague. ... the Marines showed us the room where he says he was hung by his feet, his head dipped in water and then tortured with electric shocks repeatedly.

One of the other men, the other border police, was too weak, really, to tell us what had happened. But he obviously was in very, very bad shape.

They were rescued this morning as Marines and Iraqi forces came into this complex, which included an underground bunker, weapons stockpiles and other things, and found them here. Their captors have fled."

If what is supposedly being done to killers and terrorists is considered by Double D to be equal to Nazis, what would he associate these tactics with?

I say you won't here a peep out of Double D on this.

Any wagers?

[NaplesX]

Thanks to sego for the link to this story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4108108.stm

"Taleban spokesman Abdul Latif Hakimi said Nanai Khan and the others were shot on the order of religious leaders.

His claims could not be verified by Afghan officials. The policemen were captured in Miana Shien on Thursday.

Mr Hakimi said "trials" of the other abducted officials were continuing."

I wonder if amnesty International will call for an inquiry into these incidents?

[FormerLurker]

as my sig says,

[NaplesX]

edit: quote deleted, therefor this reply never existed!!!!one - rageous

[NaplesX]

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/11931428.htm

"The men told the Marines, from the 2nd Division, that they had been tortured with shocks and flogged with a strip of rubber for more than two weeks, unseen behind the windows of black glass. The Marine operation was part of an effort that began Friday.

Ahmed Isa Fathil, 19, a former member of the new Iraqi army, said he had been held and tortured there for 22 days."

Surely, the Red Cross or someone will step up and defend these guys. Don't hold your breath, though.

[segovius]

As I may have mentioned previously, my father was a preacher. I remember once during a particularly tedious sermon someone in the front row fell asleep and my father threw a large hymnbook at him.

Stirring only for a moment the recalcitrant parishioner lifted his head and shouted 'hit me harder, I can still hear him !'.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by segovius
As I may have mentioned previously, my father was a preacher. I remember once during a particularly tedious sermon someone in the front row fell asleep and my father threw a large hymnbook at him.

Stirring only for a moment the recalcitrant parishioner lifted his head and shouted 'hit me harder, I can still hear him !'. That's funny, I have the same reaction when you post. You must have inherited something from dear old dad.

:lol:

[segovius]

Originally posted by NaplesX
That's funny, I have the same reaction when you post. You must have inherited something from dear old dad.

:lol:

No probs - I'm quite happy to hit you harder, you only have to ask.

To do so uninvited would smack of a lack of etiquette.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by segovius
No probs - I'm quite happy to hit you harder, you only have to ask.

To do so uninvited would smack of a lack of etiquette. Now that's funny.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[pfflam]

Hold the presses: murderous torturing thugs turn out to be murderous turturing thugs!!!

Call amnesty international!!

or better yet . . . lets invade a country completey unrelated to the roving bands of thugs but still, by doing so increase their numbers and their self-justification . . .

what a good idea pfflam

now you're onboard

[Aries 1B]

Congratulations to the United States Marines for rescuing those poor people and most particularly for killing forty of those scum.

A Marine is, first and foremost, a marksman.

V/R,

Aries 1B

[midwinter]

. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the
following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I
find credible based on the clarity of their statements
and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses
(ANNEX 26):
a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the
phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a
chair;
e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the
wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed
against the wall in his cell;
g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and
perhaps a broom stick.
h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and
intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one
instance actually biting a detainee.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

That's right, Naples. Maybe the Red Cross should send a letter to the central office of Mad Murdering Thugs International (Iraq Branch) and ask them to desist.

Naples. Different standards of behaviour apply to Mad Murdering Thugs and the US Military.

The US military is not allowed to torture people. Just because the other guys do it doesn't make it right.

[stupider...likeafox]

Anyone who voted for the Mad Murdering Thug Party at the last election should be disgusted at the things being done in their name.

http://www.selvesandothers.org/article9949.html

[segovius]

Originally posted by midwinter
. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the
following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I
find credible based on the clarity of their statements
and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses
(ANNEX 26):
a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the
phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a
chair;
e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the
wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed
against the wall in his cell;
g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and
perhaps a broom stick.
h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and
intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one
instance actually biting a detainee.

i. Rape of Children (http://www.boingboing.net/2004/07/15/hersh_children_raped.html)

[Hassan i Sabbah]

I just worked out what it is about this thread that's really got my goat.

What NaplesX is saying is "Why is it OK when they do it, but when we do it everyone makes a fuss?"

Naples.

You're not supposed to be doing it in the first place.

[groverat]

Who is "Dick"/"Double D"?

[segovius]

Originally posted by groverat
Who is "Dick"/"Double D"?

That's what I wanted to know too but I've been afraid to ask.

I know we're going to regret it even now......

[FormerLurker]

Quit bogarting, Naples - it's puff, puff, PASS.

[segovius]

Ok, it's a guessing game isn't it ?

I'll go for Dick van Dyke. And I think he would say about it 'chim chiminey, chim chiminey, chim chim cheroo'.

Am I warm ?

[segovius]

Dickson of Dock Green ?

[709]

'Dick' Durbin.

I'll never get how Richard translates to Dick, but whatever.

[FormerLurker]

you know, if you guys would regularly read the wingnut blogs and listen to their radio "talk" shows, you'd already know these smug elementary-school-playground nicknames!

[midwinter]

Originally posted by FormerLurker
you know, if you guys would regularly read the wingnut blogs and listen to their radio "talk" shows, you'd already know these smug elementary-school-playground nicknames!

Indeed. The Freepers are all over this in a typical "OMGWTFBBQ WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT" kind of way.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
What NaplesX is saying is "Why is it OK when they do it, but when we do it everyone makes a fuss?"[/i] Wait a minute!

I have heard every disparaging thing about the US and it's military here in PO - from "the President is a murderer" to "the US military are rednecks with guns". I have seen incidents of mistreatment likened to Hitler's Nazi tactics. We have all witnessed the fabrication of false charges being accepted as fact. We all see a concerted effort to humanize the 500 murderous thugs at Gitmo, while dehumanizing the US Military and their Commander. GQ is reporting "He loves Doritos chips and Raisin Bran Crunch cereal…but he won’t touch Froot Loops.", about the ever more cuddly and lovable Saddam "The Butcher of Baghdad" Hussein. The same magazine depicts the US president in this way:
http://www.drudgereport.com/bush.jpg

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."- Dick "Double-D Durbin

So the US is on the same level with Hitler's Germany, "Soviets in their gulags" and Pol Pot's brutal regime - all recognizable universally evil entities, which makes the US military the equivalent of the Nazis and our intel organizations the same as the SS, in DD's estimation.

Getting past the outrageousness of that ridiculous equivocation, one must notice that SH and his brutal regime are not mentioned in the group, even though his brutality and torture tactics have to be in the top 5 of repressive regimes. Why is that?

Because the left is only focused on one thing - destroying the current president. They are not concerned about right or wrong or who they ally themselves with - as long as it helps undermine the current president of the US.

What was I saying by my original post?

The left is all too willing to point to hints of human rights abuses, when it comes to the US - Despite the fact that detainees of the US are treated far and away better than anywhere in the world. Meanwhile in Iraq, the US is fighting against people that give the word torture it's true meaning, and the US is evil for doing so.

If we are to afford terrorists, murderers, thugs and our enemy's fighters the human rights that most here say, should we not also be fighting so that the innocent people of Iraq can enjoy those same rights?

As it sits, it would seem that human rights should only be afforded to criminals, those at Gitmo and of course, Suddam Hussein - if you go by the prevailing application.

[midwinter]

Total meltdown in 5...4...3...2...

[groverat]

Getting past the outrageousness of that ridiculous equivocation, one must notice that SH and his brutal regime are not mentioned in the group, even though his brutality and torture tactics have to be in the top 5 of repressive regimes. Why is that?

Saddam Hussein isn't listed among currently abusive regimes because Saddam Hussein is in prison and doesn't even have control of his own meal schedule.

The Left was the only voice against Saddam when he was gassing civilians and the right wing Republican horde was begging the chance to throw more money and guns his way.

You are reading only what you want to read. And you still can't admit that our military is anally-raping boys without immediately turning to "BUT THEY DID IT, TOO!"

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by groverat
Saddam Hussein isn't listed among currently abusive regimes because Saddam Hussein is in prison and doesn't even have control of his own meal schedule. SH and his brutal regime are historic entities, just like the rest of those mentioned by DD. He can't mention them because, it would highlight his hypocrisy in the issue. Are those regimes current? Get with the program, grove.

Originally posted by groverat
The Left was the only voice against Saddam when he was gassing civilians and the right wing Republican horde was begging the chance to throw more money and guns his way. Perhaps you are right, But those were different times and circumstances. We were fighting the spread of communism. Anyway, the left has dropped that objection to SH's brutality, in favor of the objection to their own president.

Originally posted by groverat
You are reading only what you want to read. And you still can't admit that our military is anally-raping boys without immediately turning to "BUT THEY DID IT, TOO!" Really? Anally raping boys?

Do human rights apply to anyone other than our enemy, or terrorists?

Don't the Iraqi people deserve them also? How about the children?

Care to answer the questions?

[midwinter]

Poor NaplesX...reduced to arguing that morality and justice are relative.

[kneelbeforezod]

Originally posted by NaplesX
But those were different times and circumstances. We were fighting the spread of communism.This made me laugh so much that coffee actually came out my nose. Thanks Naples "Napesy" X for cheering up an otherwise dull Monday morning.

[Anders]

Originally posted by midwinter
Poor NaplesX...reduced to arguing that morality and justice are relative.

??? I think Naples are quite clear and there is no relativity over his stance:

US and its friends: Morally just
The enemies of US: Morally unjust.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
This made me laugh so much that coffee actually came out my nose. Thanks Naples "Napesy" X for cheering up an otherwise dull Monday morning.

Heh. I got a chuckle, too, since I thought "Well, somewhere in there we were stopping the spread of Kurds."

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Anders
??? I think Naples are quite clear and there is no relativity over his stance:

US and its friends: Morally just
The enemies of US: Morally unjust.

Yes, but that's the brilliance of his argument: if we're not as bad as other people when we do it, then we must still be morally just.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by groverat
You are reading only what you want to read. And you still can't admit that our military is anally-raping boys without immediately turning to "BUT THEY DID IT, TOO!" Really?

Let's compare, treatment shall we:

Provide captives with clean clothing:

US - yes
AQ - no
FRE - no
SH - no
Pol Pot - no
Nazis - no

Provide captives with religious materials:

US - yes
AQ - no
FRE - no
SH - no
Pol Pot - no
Nazis - no

Worm ethnically correct meals:

US - yes
AQ - no
FRE - no
SH - no
Pol Pot - no
Nazis - no

Time to practice religious rituals:

US - yes
AQ - no
FRE - no
SH - no
Pol Pot - no
Nazis - no

provide comfortable living quarters;

US - yes
AQ - no
FRE - no
SH - no
Pol Pot - no
Nazis - no

Competant medical attention:

US - yes
AQ - no
FRE - no
SH - no
Pol Pot - no
Nazis - no

Prospect of beheading or other brutal death as a result of detainment, as a rule:

US - no
AQ - yes
FRE - yes
SH - yes
Pol Pot - yes
Nazis - yes

If it must be done, we could go into comparing techniques for interrogations. How can any of you even compare these entities with the US, with a straight face?

[midwinter]

ooh! ooh! Can anyone just make up criteria?

I wanna try! I wanna try!

Chance of being pissed on
Chance of having attack dogs come after you
Chance of being wrongfully imprisoned for an indefinite period of without charges or a trial
Chance of having your name released to the public so people know where you are
Chance of dying in prison
Chance of being beaten
Chance of being sodomized
Chance of being made to stand on a stool with electrodes attached to your nuts

Chance of the guard who tortured you getting off with a slap on the wrist.

[Northgate]

WHAT HAPPENS IN GITMO STAYS IN GITMO!

I HEART GITMO!

[segovius]

Originally posted by 709
'Dick' Durbin.

I'll never get how Richard translates to Dick, but whatever.

Damn. I so wanted it to be Daffy Duck - except he's not called Dick but Duck...err......uh...

[MarcUK]

http://www.hawkwindmuseum.co.uk/Dickiedavies1979.gif

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Genius. But no-one outside of the UK and under 30 would know this man from jebus.

[groverat]

You seem to have a gripe with a very specific person who doesn't post here, Naples, you should probably e-mail him or something because hashing it out here is nothing but a childish strawman.

We were fighting the spread of communism.

We were arming Saddam to the teeth to fight communism?

Why not just say "I don't know anything about history, I just know the US is always right!" and be done with it? You would save yourself so much time that way.

Anyway, the left has dropped that objection to SH's brutality, in favor of the objection to their own president.

Can you find any source at all for that ridiculous statement (the left has dropped that objection to SH's brutality)?

Do human rights apply to anyone other than our enemy, or terrorists?

Don't the Iraqi people deserve them also? How about the children?

Care to answer the questions?

Sure they do. Human rights should apply to all and all those who violate basic human rights should stop and none of them are justified by the misdeeds of others.

Pretty simple.

Really?
Let's compare, treatment shall we:

This is too perfect. Just too perfect.

I point out that you rely solely on the "Well Johnny did it, too!" argument and to refute that argument, you immediately turn around and say, "Well Johnny did it, too!"

You immediately turn around and justify US misdeeds by saying that a separate group is worse.

[MarcUK]

nah, i think he was calling someone double dunce.

[BRussell]

Has anyone noticed that Republicans are more offended at Americans making analogies than Americans engaging in torture?

That seems absolutely horrible what was done to those people by the insurgents. These things, done by Americans, were also horrible. And we don't have pictures of many of the rapes and murders that are alleged to have happened.

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/torture1.jpg

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/new-toture1.jpg

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/dead-iraqi1.jpg

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/dead-iraqi2.jpg

[midwinter]

Originally posted by BRussell
Has anyone noticed that Republicans are more offended at Americans making analogies than Americans engaging in torture?

That seems absolutely horrible what was done to those people by the insurgents. These things, done by Americans, were also horrible. And we don't have pictures of many of the rapes and murders that are alleged to have happened.

Well, the larger issue is that the American political landscape has become so polarized and our sources of news so politicized that it's all simply a vast field of echo-chambers.

The kind of drivel NaplesX is spouting here, as if it SPANG OUT OF THE EITHER, sounds great when it's said in the rah rah chamber with other Freepers or Powerliners or Dittoheads. But when it gets said in public it's just plain disgusting.

The same goes for the left, of course. What sounds great in the rah rah of DailyKos can be just stupid in the wild.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by NaplesX
SH and his brutal regime are historic entities, Of this you can be quite sure!!!


http://www.notinourname.net/graphics/rummy-sh.jpg


\BTW: kudos to the Marines for rescuing those folks, and Aries is correct in his assesment of their fine capabilities. Good job men.

Especially since you're probably on your second round of forced tour-of-duty . . .

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by groverat
We were arming Saddam to the teeth to fight communism? I should have said Iran. My mistake.

Originally posted by groverat
Why not just say "I don't know anything about history, I just know the US is always right!" and be done with it? You would save yourself so much time that way. I would say that, if I believed that.

Originally posted by groverat
Can you find any source at all for that ridiculous statement (the left has dropped that objection to SH's brutality)?Come on. Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Howard Dean. Dick Durbin, Nancy Palosi, Al Gore and on and on.... Come on.

Originally posted by groverat
Sure they do. Human rights should apply to all and all those who violate basic human rights should stop and none of them are justified by the misdeeds of others.What if they don't stop? Like those committing such crimes right now over in Iraq and so forth?

Do we simply tell them how bad it is? Is that enough?

Or is it right to fight for those people?

Originally posted by groverat
This is too perfect. Just too perfect.

I point out that you rely solely on the "Well Johnny did it, too!" argument and to refute that argument, you immediately turn around and say, "Well Johnny did it, too!"

You immediately turn around and justify US misdeeds by saying that a separate group is worse. No my friend, you are equivocating splashing water on a Koran with beheading. They are not both the same thing. Sure you can broadly categorize them both as misdeeds, if that is as far as your brain will let you go. The truth is they are not even close.

Does coercive interrogation happen under honorable and dishonorable governments? Yes. Does that make them all the same? Afraid not.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/19/news/torture.php

"The U.S. military has found torture houses after invading towns heavily populated by insurgents - like Falluja, where the assault against insurgents last autumn uncovered almost 20 such sites. But rarely have they come across victims who have lived to tell the tale."

"One of them, Ahmed Isa Fathil, 19, a former member of the new Iraqi Army, said that he had been held and tortured there for 22 days. All the while, he said, his face was almost entirely taped over and his hands were cuffed.

In an interview with an embedded reporter just hours after he was freed, he said he had never even seen the faces of his captors, who occasionally whispered at him, "We will kill you." He said they did not question him, and he did not know what they wanted. Nor did he ever expect to be released.

"They kill somebody every day," said Fathil, whose hands were so swollen that he could not open a can of Coca-Cola offered to him by a marine. "They've killed a lot of people."

The recovered manual - a fat, well-thumbed Arabic paperback - listed itself as the 2005 First Edition of "The Principles of Jihadist Philosophy." Its chapters included "How to Select the Best Hostage," and "The Legitimacy of Cutting the Infidels' Heads."

"They taped his face, put cotton in his ears, and began to beat him." "The men tended to talk in whispers, he said, telling him five times a day, in low voices, to pray, and offering him sand, instead of water, to wash himself."

"The routine in the house was regular. Because of the windows, it was always dark inside. Fathil said he was fed once a day, and allowed to use a bathroom as necessary in the back of the house."

"When the marines burst in, one of the captives was lying under a stairwell, badly beaten. At first, they thought he was dead. The others were emaciated and battered. Fathil had fared the best."

His town has always been a good place, he said, but the militants have made it hell.

"These few are destroying it," he said, his face streaked with tears. "Everybody they take, they kill."

Please go on equivocating the US with these types, It just shows how out of touch you really are.

Hitler's victims:

http://www.oskarschindler.com/Albums4/9q.jpg

The US' supposed victims:

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I6125-2004May06

http://slate.msn.com/id/2083612/

"...it has been reported, each man received two parting gifts: a brand new copy of the Koran as well as a new pair of jeans. Not the act of generosity that it might first appear, the jeans, at least, turned out to be a necessity. During their stay (14-months on average), the detainees (nearly all of them) had gained an average of 13 pounds."

"...the meals are certified halal—adhering to Islamic law— that paperwork is later double-checked by GTMO's Muslim chaplain."

Again nazi victim:

http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-1236.html

"The death camps used gas chambers as their means of murder, and these were chillingly efficient. Some, such as the twin chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau (the largest death camp), could accommodate over 4,000 people at a single time. Victims destined for the gas chambers were forced to remove their clothing; then they were shoved into the death chamber itself. About 20 minutes after the gas (usually Zyklon-B) was released in the room, everyone inside was dead.

The bodies of the victims were stripped of any remaining valuables, such as gold from their teeth and rings, and then burned in ovens built especially for this purpose. When the ovens gave out, as they did in some death camps because of the sheer number of people killed, the Germans burned the bodies out in the open.:

GTMO detention camp:

"Of the 158 detainees, 14 have had to receive special medical care. Two had bullet wounds, four had fractures, two of which were compound, and the remaining eight required special medical care. Two of them were tubercular.

The others had everything from digestive problems or rashes and such.

These detainees are checked every day, health-wise. They are weighed once a week, if that's of any interest to you, to make certain that they're not starving. And they have a special dietician, one that had to be selected from throughout the United States because this dietician had to be knowledgeable of the cultural requirements of that area, plus the dietary restrictions and rules of Islam. And so these detainees are fed not only well, but in the appropriate fashion.

Each cell has a mattress about four, five inches thick, with sheets and blankets. And keep in mind that that is the way their culture calls for in their bedrooms. Very few bedrooms in Afghanistan have beds; they sleep on a floor. And in most Afghanistan homes, you very seldom find Western-style furniture; therefore, as you've seen Osama bin Laden, he's always sitting on a floor. And so I believe our military was very sensitive to housing requirements and bedding requirements and such. "

Pol Pot Victims:

http://www.cbc.ca/sunday/cambodia/story.html

"They took him to the D room on the third floor where about 50 people were shackled together. He was forced to lie down and could only sit if he asked the guard for permission. The guards would provide a metal bucket for the prisoners to urinate in. Food was served at 8AM and 8PM. Each meal consisted of two or three tablespoons of rice porridge. They were not given any water.

Every three or four days the guards would hose the prisoners down. "It was like hell, I can't describe it. At that time, in that condition, the hope that I had earlier had disappeared," recalls Vann Nath."

Tell me again the similarities...

[segovius]

Originally posted by NaplesX
........

We've hit a new all time low.

Again.

It's posts like this that make one question what the **** we're actually doing here.

:no:

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by BRussell
Has anyone noticed that Republicans are more offended at Americans making analogies than Americans engaging in torture? The reason why this is, would be because the people that have perpetrated these wrongs are being investigated and prosecuted, before this was a big news story, by the way.

These wrongs are being caught by the military and being corrected by the military. Nothing like Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot. The left is merely parroting news that the military already knew and was taking care of.

The left is intent on making the US look bad, and they have succeeded to some extent.

keep up the good work.

[Northgate]

Originally posted by NaplesX
The left is intent on making the US look bad, and they have succeeded to some extent.

keep up the good work.

Fascist!

[segovius]

Originally posted by Northgate
Fascist!

Why does he hate America ?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by segovius
We've hit a new all time low.

Again.

It's posts like this that make one question what the **** we're actually doing here.

:no: Come on "enlightened one", tell how you compare US treatment of prisoners with that of any of the mentioned regimes.

You can't. That;s the whole issue here. There isn't even a remotely close comparison.

You are right though, you leftists have hit an all time low. You want to desecrate the US before the world by pointing out individual mistakes and wrongs that happen in every conflict, while ignoring the good that is being accomplished. You want to tell the world "the US is evil" - Ahem, I am the US and so are most of the people here. I am not evil, I don't torture people for the sole purpose of killing them, like Hitler and Pol Pot. I don't mass murder peoples I don't agree with. No-one I know has these values that you keep attributing to "The US".

So excuse if I'm more than a little offended by your (the left's) remarks about my friends and family. I have been through all but 5 of the United States and have yet to find people that you describe outside a maybe a prison.

The people that committed these wrongs at Abu Graib are not "Americans" they are criminals and scum that happen to live in the US and they will live in shame for the rest of their lives.

So I am not sure who you speak of when you say "Americans" or "The US". Care to be specific?

[Northgate]

What hurts America more is telling its own citizens to shut the f*ck up, don't argue, don't demand accountability and TO FALL IN LINE.

Which is what you, my friend, are constantly evangelizing. It's insulting. And to insinuate that the mere insistence that America rise ABOVE terrorists and their methods is comparable to treason is, to me, the personification of evil.

It's precisely this mentality that motivates me to CONTINUE to fight the Republican party and those who blindly support their un-american activities.

Brick by brick the foundation of this country is removed.

Fight the "nay sayers". Don't fight for what's right.

Bleah!

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Northgate
What hurts America more is telling its own citizens to shut the f*ck up, don't argue, don't demand accountability and TO FALL IN LINE.

Which is what you, my friend, are constantly evangelizing. It's insulting. And to insinuate that the mere insistence that America rise ABOVE terrorists and their methods is comparable to treason is, to me, the personification of evil. America is insisting on treatment far and above terrorists and despots. It treats it's prisoners exponentially better than any country. Just because a method of interrogation is similar to that used by a terrorist does not make motivation and outcome the same. Wake up.

If we follow that logic, we can't use guns, computers, the internet, cars and whatever else the terrorists use, simply to differentiate ourselves. You are living in never-land, my friend.

Originally posted by Northgate
It's precisely this mentality that motivates me to CONTINUE to fight the Republican party and those who blindly support their un-american activities.

Brick by brick the foundation of this country is removed.

Fight the "nay sayers". Don't fight for what's right.

Bleah! We are all allowed our opinion, so fight away. That neither makes you right or guaranteed to win your fight.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Northgate

It's precisely this mentality that motivates me to CONTINUE to fight the Republican party and those who blindly support their un-american activities.



Naples is not a Republican. Or a conservative. He's something far worse.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by midwinter
Naples is not a Republican. Or a conservative. He's something far worse. Come on say what you mean. Why leave us all hanging like that. Show your true colors.

[groverat]

I should have said Iran. My mistake.

So why were we arming Iran?

Come on. Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Howard Dean. Dick Durbin, Nancy Palosi, Al Gore and on and on.... Come on.

Show me where any of them have been positive on Saddam. I can list names, too.
And then, show me why anyone should care or why that reflects the opinions of liberals/The Left in general.

Jesus. Ted Williams. Stalin. Batman. Tiny Tim. FDR. Steve Jobs. Come on. COME ON!

What if they don't stop? Like those committing such crimes right now over in Iraq and so forth?

They should be stopped and punished.

Or is it right to fight for those people?

What people?

No my friend, you are equivocating splashing water on a Koran with beheading.

When did I do that.
You purposefully choose the worst offense of the Muslim fighter and the lightest offense of the US fighter. Why? Because you are intellectually dishonest.

Is beheading someone worse than beating them to death?
Is getting it on video worse than posing for smiley, thumbs-up pictures with the dead body?

If we're going to make comparisons at least try and compare oranges to oranges.

And at the end of your "Johnny did it first/worse" game you still must realize that you are not holding our troops up to the highest moral standard, you are merely holding them to "marginally better than the enemy" standards.

Maybe right-wing Christians talk about moral relativism so much because they recognize it so easily in themselves.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Come on say what you mean. Why leave us all hanging like that. Show your true colors.

I just like to remind people that it's silly to lump you in with conservatives and republicans when you're not.

[Anders]

Originally posted by NaplesX
It treats it's prisoners exponentially better than any country.

Do you really believe that?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Anders
Do you really believe that? Yep. I have talked to enough guys currently over there to come to that conclusion.

But if you want to show me some evidence of better treatment, I'm all ears.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by groverat
Show me where any of them have been positive on Saddam. I can list names, too.
And then, show me why anyone should care or why that reflects the opinions of liberals/The Left in general.

Jesus. Ted Williams. Stalin. Batman. Tiny Tim. FDR. Steve Jobs. Come on. COME ON The left has been steadily anti-us and pro-saddom since this war started. Let's not play games.



Originally posted by groverat
They should be stopped and punished. How does that happen in Iraq?

Originally posted by groverat
What people?The Iraqi people that are suffering the brunt of the losses in Iraq now.

Originally posted by groverat
When did I do that.
You purposefully choose the worst offense of the Muslim fighter and the lightest offense of the US fighter. Why? Because you are intellectually dishonest. You are going to lecture me on intellectual dishonesty? Please elaborate, it should prove entertaining.

Originally posted by groverat
Is beheading someone worse than beating them to death? What's the purpose? If you are comparing beating someone to save lives, in the case of the death at Abu Graib, to say beheading an innocent contractor for the sake of propaganda. I would say the beheading is worse. See how context make a world of difference? No, I'm sure you don't.
Originally posted by groverat
Is getting it on video worse than posing for smiley, thumbs-up pictures with the dead body? I have already stated the morons that did those thing are... well morons. Once again the video was for propaganda purposes. No comparison.

Originally posted by groverat
If we're going to make comparisons at least try and compare oranges to oranges. I am just going by what the press and the left, I mean the left have defined things. The fake Koran story was an "atrocities." DD says that the isolated incidents that happened at "Aby Graub" are the same as Nazis. I am not setting the bar here. Sorry.

Originally posted by groverat
And at the end of your "Johnny did it first/worse" game you still must realize that you are not holding our troops up to the highest moral standard, you are merely holding them to "marginally better than the enemy" standards. So this is your example of intellectual honesty?

The troops should do everything in their power to preferably kill and secondarily capture the enemy. Once the enemy is captured they should be interrogated with the purpose of saving lives. They should be released if they don't present a danger or held if they do, until the war is over. At which point they should be tried for war crimes and jailed.

While on the battlefield, they need to treat the enemy with honor by killing him quickly. On both sides, the combatants know the risks. Off the battlefield, soldiers need to treat everyone with human dignity and respect. For the vast majority of the time that is exactly what is happening. You want the world to think it's just the opposite.

You and the left turning every incident into recruitment brochures for the enemy is not helping this war be over any quicker, or more importantly, helping the soldiers lives be any easier or safer.

The military has a justice system that keeps misfits and morons in line, and possibly even in jail. Most punishment there far surpass civilian punishments.

The US military is held to a higher standard and displays it regularly.

[BRussell]

Naples: Do you know how many US POWs were killed or died in N. Vietnamese camps compared to how many Middle Easterners were killed or died in US camps?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by BRussell
Naples: Do you know how many US POWs were killed or died in N. Vietnamese camps compared to how many Middle Easterners were killed or died in US camps? No. Why not just let us all know. That's what this place is for.

I would like to know if you are willing to tell.

[kneelbeforezod]

Originally posted by NaplesX
I don't torture people for the sole purpose of killing them

The US should not be torturing people for any purpose. If you support torture you hate America and everything it stands for.

Why do you hate America Naples?


Originally posted by NaplesX
The left has been steadily anti-us and pro-saddom since this war started.

Complete and utter nonsense. Anti-Bush Administration does not equal anti-US. Nobody was 'pro-Saddam'.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
The US should not be torturing people for any purpose. If you support torture you hate America and everything it stands for.

Why do you hate America Naples? I support coercive interrogation, short of torture. However, defining accidental splashing of water on a Koran as abuse leaves little for interrogators to work with.

The left has blurred the lines here, I'm sorry if you can't see that.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

'Pro Saddam.'

Seriously, what's the point in arguing with people who either really don't care whether what they say is true or not or are divorced enough from actual events to write something like this?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by NaplesX
I support coercive interrogation, short of torture

Please define.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by NaplesX
No. Why not just let us all know. That's what this place is for.

I would like to know if you are willing to tell. I actually wasn't trying to be Socratic, I just couldn't find the right links when I posted that. :) Here they are:

114 American POWs (http://my.eiis.net/cmart/vietwarstats.html) died in Vietnam. 108 detainees (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml) have died in American camps in the past 3 years. In addition, the Vietnam POWs were released at the end of the war. When will our detainees be released?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by midwinter
Please define. Perhaps it is easier to define what it doesn't mean.

Anything that involves physical harm, draws blood or interrupts bodily function, should be off limits, IMO.

[groverat]

The left has been steadily anti-us and pro-saddom since this war started. Let's not play games.

Yes, let's not play games. Now back up your ridiculously ignorant statements with some facts. It shouldn't be hard if this Saddam love is so widespread, now should it?

How does that happen in Iraq?
&
The Iraqi people that are suffering the brunt of the losses in Iraq now.

Pre or post-Saddam?

What's the purpose? If you are comparing beating someone to save lives, in the case of the death at Abu Graib, to say beheading an innocent contractor for the sake of propaganda. I would say the beheading is worse. See how context make a world of difference? No, I'm sure you don't.

Beating someone to save lives?
And what does "for the sake of propaganda" mean? Do you think the beheaders just kind of do it on a whim? They have no rationale for what they do?

They also think they are saving lives, as they often demand Israel put a stop to its slaughter of civilians and that the US pull out its military from the ME where we kill thousands as well. Not to say the US military and kidnappers are one and the same, but your characterizations are increasingly childlike.

I have already stated the morons that did those thing are... well morons. Once again the video was for propaganda purposes. No comparison.

So they are mere "morons"? Like the guy who steals your parking space or the waitress that mixes up your order?

US soldier kills an innocent - An isolated act not representative of US policy.
Kidnapper kills an innocent - Typical activity of those who fight against illegal invasions.

You and the left turning every incident into recruitment brochures for the enemy is not helping this war be over any quicker, or more importantly, helping the soldiers lives be any easier or safer.

So "we" should ignore it when our soldiers shove their erect penises into the anuses of young boys in prison camps in foreign countries?
We should close our eyes as they pose with people they beat to death and give the 'ole thumbs up?

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by groverat
Yes, let's not play games. Now back up your ridiculously ignorant statements with some facts. It shouldn't be hard if this Saddam love is so widespread, now should it?


&


Pre or post-Saddam?



Beating someone to save lives?
And what does "for the sake of propaganda" mean? Do you think the beheaders just kind of do it on a whim? They have no rationale for what they do?

They also think they are saving lives, as they often demand Israel put a stop to its slaughter of civilians and that the US pull out its military from the ME where we kill thousands as well. Not to say the US military and kidnappers are one and the same, but your characterizations are increasingly childlike.



So they are mere "morons"? Like the guy who steals your parking space or the waitress that mixes up your order?

US soldier kills an innocent - An isolated act not representative of US policy.
Kidnapper kills an innocent - Typical activity of those who fight against illegal invasions.



So "we" should ignore it when our soldiers shove their erect penises into the anuses of young boys in prison camps in foreign countries?
We should close our eyes as they pose with people they beat to death and give the 'ole thumbs up? No-one is ignoring wrongdoing by the US soldiers. Just because a person chooses to move on and not indict all soldiers and their commanders for crimes against humanity, does not mean that person is ignoring a particular problem.

Are you obsessed with anal rape or something? What are you talking about?

I suggest you read the AQ handbook. Killing innocents IS policy. Whereas torture and anal rape IS NOT policy for the uS army. I am hoping you see the difference. Otherwise, you prove your unreasonableness, if your comments have not already done so.

[groverat]

Originally posted by NaplesX
No-one is ignoring wrongdoing by the US soldiers. Just because a person chooses to move on and not indict all soldiers and their commanders for crimes against humanity, does not mean that person is ignoring a particular problem.

Why not "move on and not indict all militants" as well?

Are you obsessed with anal rape or something? What are you talking about?

It's a vile action our military has done to young boys in Iraq. Why wouldn't I bring it up in a thread about abuse of the weak by the powerful?

I suggest you read the AQ handbook. Killing innocents IS policy. Whereas torture and anal rape IS NOT policy for the uS army. I am hoping you see the difference. Otherwise, you prove your unreasonableness, if your comments have not already done so.

Are al-Qaeda (as much as such an organization even exists) and Iraqi militants related in some way?

And I'm still waiting for that pro-Saddam talk from the Left... the dishonesty is thick in here.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by groverat
Why not "move on and not indict all militants" as well? I would say that I do that now. I realize that they fight for different reasons. Most are not simply fighting against an illegal invasion, as you imply. Most are fighting to either restore SH style brutality or Tailban style brutality. Most are extremeists in one way or another. That is who you are defending, here.

Originally posted by groverat
It's a vile action our military has done to young boys in Iraq. Why wouldn't I bring it up in a thread about abuse of the weak by the powerful?
I agree it's a vile action and should be included in such a conversation. Do you have proof, or are you basing this on simply accusations by a detainee? Or is it along the lines of the Koran flushing story?

Originally posted by groverat
Are al-Qaeda (as much as such an organization even exists) and Iraqi militants related in some way? They are working loosely together in Itaq. You tell me.

Originally posted by groverat
And I'm still waiting for that pro-Saddam talk from the Left... the dishonesty is thick in here. That's the way I see it, No sense in digging up quotes so you can interpret them the way you see it - simply to go around in circles. Let's spare everyone that. Whatcha say?

[Gene Clean]

Tailban, Itaq... did you just wake up?

[groverat]

I would say that I do that now.

Did you know that you started this thread?

Do you have proof, or are you basing this on simply accusations by a detainee? Or is it along the lines of the Koran flushing story?

You, of all people, with a secret bag of pro-Saddam statements that no one is allowed to see, asks for "proof"?! :lol:

There are multiple sources for US soldiers raping Iraqi women and children. You might not consider them credible, but you are hardly the standard.

They are working loosely together in Itaq. You tell me.

Are they? Why should I tell you something you apparently already know even though you have no evidence except a burning desire to shout very loudly about it all the time?

That's the way I see it, No sense in digging up quotes so you can interpret them the way you see it - simply to go around in circles. Let's spare everyone that. Whatcha say?

You don't have any, so stop saying it.

You are a dishonest person. I say you are dishonest because you say things you know are not true.

[NaplesX]

""The special court in Iraq was created by the Iraqi governing council, which is nothing more than a creation of the US military occupation and has no authority in law as a criminal court," he said.

The Iraq Special Tribunal was established by the US-led administration in Iraq last December to try members of the former government.

Clark also said the US itself must be tried for the November assault on Falluja, destruction of houses, torture in prisons and its role in the deaths of thousands of Iraqis in the war." - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/11388BFC-9290-4141-B0E1-BEA75A1B20F8.htm

http://eserver.org/clogic/2005/Ramsey_Clarke.html

Sounds like he may be your hero, sego.

January 28th: 1998

"Dear Ambassador Annan,

The United States government has climaxed months of propaganda and
threats against Iraq with the statement it will launch a new sustained
attack using missiles and bombs on suspected biological and chemical
weapon sites and other targets, alone if necessary, as soon as
mid-February. It offers as its excuse Iraq's failure to permit its
inspectors unrestricted access to any place in Iraq they choose."

- A letter from Clark to KA

Here's another pro-saddam move, this time by Conyers:

"The Detroit News reported that Conyers was seeking support from the Congressional Black Caucus, which Waters heads, to pressure Clinton to lift the Iraqi sanctions. During his October address, Conyers brandished a letter signed by more than 40 lawmakers urging the president to grant the relief Saddam has been demanding.

To underscore his leverage over a president enmeshed in a precarious sex scandal, Conyers threatened to take up the matter of Iraqi sanctions with Hillary Clinton. "Might as well. We go to her for everything else," said Conyers, according to the Detroit paper."

How about McDermott:

"Interviewed on ABC's "This Week" last Sunday, McDermott, while in Baghdad, said, "I think you have to take the Iraqis on their value-at their face value." He also said, "I think the President would mislead the American people."

He was labeled Baghdad Jim

""When I was there and met with women members of the governing councils and local--of the national governing councils and local governing councils in Baghdad and Kirkuk, they were starting to express concerns about some of the pullbacks in the rights that they were given under Saddam Hussein. He was an equal opportunity oppressor, but on paper women had rights; they went to school; they participated in the professions; they participated in government; and business and, as long as they stayed out of his way, they had considerable freedom of movement." - Hillary Clinton

Need more?

[segovius]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Clark also said the US itself must be tried for the November assault on Falluja, destruction of houses, torture in prisons and its role in the deaths of thousands of Iraqis in the war." - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/11388BFC-9290-4141-B0E1-BEA75A1B20F8.htm

http://eserver.org/clogic/2005/Ramsey_Clarke.html

Sounds like he may be your hero, sego.

"Don't talk to me about heroes, most of these men seem like serfs......"

Maybe Clark just knows something about the Fallujah assault (unlike you).

Maybe he saw the photos (http://www.vitw.org/gallery/FallujahMay2005?page=1)

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by NaplesX
The left has blurred the lines here....the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left the left, the left, the left :lol: :lol:

[Nightcrawler]

Naples, you are really comparing the US-military with disjointed guerillia-forces. While the US as a democratic state with a functioning system of separated and balanced powers, with a constitution, with a working economy and a well supplied, trained and controlled army... has signed the geneva-conventions with which it has prohibited itself the abuse/torturing/maltreatment/indefinite emprisonment of prisoners of war...

the guerillia-forces the US is fighting have not signed the geneva-conventions, have no constitution, no democratic state, no separated and balanced powers, not a working economy and not a well supplied, trained nor controlled army.

Instead the guerillia-forces have a decentralised network, in which every cell can set up their own rules and decisions, and because of their huge disadvantage in military technology, training, intelligence-information, financial capabilities,...

these guerillia-forces use suicide-bombings, kidnappings, torture, run-and hide-attacks... in order to have the highest possible fear-effect on the US-soldiers and the US-public,...

and in order to prevent that the guerillia-soldiers lose their mind and hope they get something they can believe in, that justifies their actions and that portrays them as heroes, and for the case of death, promises them eternal reward in paradise, namely a religiously-tainted ideology.

Nightcrawler

[groverat]

Let's look at these pro-Saddam quotes, eh?

Ramsey Clarke's quote

I read this four times and I cannot find what is "pro-Saddam" about it.

Conyers

Again, what?

McDermott

Yet again... what?

Clinton

What is pro-Saddam here? She called him an "oppressor" for Christ's sake.

Need more?

I'm still waiting for pro-Saddam quotes. You can't give "more" of something you have not provided at all.

[giant]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Ramsey Clarke
there's nothing pro-saddam there.

[NaplesX]

Well, you have proven me right, I see these quotes and the attitude of the left to be pro Saddam or at least much more anti-Bush than anti-Saddam. You don't, therefore you will do just what I said you would do if I posted some of the quotes.

Anyway, I said they dropped their objection to SH in favor of objection to GWB. The overabundance of anti-bush propaganda that is coming from high-level congressional leaders as opposed to the same people's criticism of SH should be proof enough. But you won't look at it that way.

So what to do? I say we agree to disagree.

Or perhaps you could dwell on that one ancillary personal view and avoid addressing the other points I made.

Hey, the ball's in your court.

[groverat]

Can you explain how any of the quotes are "pro-Saddam".

You can sit there and say the sky is made of maple syrup all day but you are going to have to provide some rational analysis as to why it is.

For instance, how can you quote someone calling Saddam an "oppressor" and say it is pro-Saddam? It is nonsense.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Well, you have proven me right, I see these quotes and the attitude of the left to be pro Saddam or at least much more anti-Bush than anti-Saddam. You don't, therefore you will do just what I said you would do if I posted some of the quotes.
Someone asked you for some evidence to back up a pretty ridiculous claim.

You eventually posted some, with reluctance.

Now it appears that your evidence is actually pretty ghey and you're blaming people for calling you on it.

I like your style.

"Mr Naples, I put it to you that you were there on the night in question and that it was your gun that was used in this despicable crime!"

"Your honour, I have an alibi! Here is a timestamped photograph of me on the log flume at the Alton Towers theme park in Birmingham, Great Britain!"

"Mr Naples, this is a photograph of you watching television and eating pizza timestamped this morning."

"BURN HILARY CLINTON AT THE STAKE!"

[segovius]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Someone asked you for some evidence to back up a pretty ridiculous claim.

You eventually posted some, with reluctance.

Now it appears that your evidence is actually pretty ghey and you're blaming people for calling you on it.

I like your style.

"Mr Naples, I put it to you that you were there on the night in question and that it was your gun that was used in this despicable crime!"

"Your honour, I have an alibi! Here is a timestamped photograph of me on the log flume at the Alton Towers theme park in Birmingham, Great Britain!"

"Mr Naples, this is a photograph of you watching television and eating pizza timestamped this morning."

"BURN HILARY CLINTON AT THE STAKE!"

:lol:

[groverat]

In Naples' mind the following statement is "pro-Saddam":

"Saddam Hussein is a horrible human being and was a vicious, blood-thirsty tyrant. But Hitler was worse."

[BRussell]

If Naples could find, say, a picture of a leftist shaking hands with Saddam while selling him materials to make weapons of mass destruction, THEN you'd have something pro-Saddam to crow about.

http://www.notinourname.net/graphics/rummy-sh.jpg

[midwinter]

My god at how much you all hate America™. It's sad, you know. NaplesX is the only True American Patriot™ here.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Good lord!

Is that the current American Secretary of Defense shaking hands with the deposed tyrant Saddam Hussein?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Good lord!

Is that the current American Secretary of Defense shaking hands with the deposed tyrant Saddam Hussein?

That right there? Totally pro-Saddam statement.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Saddam is...

a... bad man?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Saddam is...

a... bad man?

Still pro-Saddam. He's just "bad"? What...can you not see through your Saddam-love-stained glasses that he is quite simply the most evilest man to have ever walked the planet? Saddam is the worst tyrant in the history of the world. To be frank, many of us wonder if he might be the anti-Christ.

[NaplesX]

It's like watching a peanut gallery with you guys.

You cannot address one issue straight on - it's gotta be all sarcasm all the time.

The standards that you hold the US to, don't apply o anyone else, apparently.

I'm all for holding the US and it's soldiers to a "higher" standard. I would just like that standard to be at least liberally applied to those we are fighting against, politically and militarily.

That's too much to ask here, though.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by NaplesX
It's like watching a peanut gallery with you guys.

You cannot address one issue straight on - it's gotta be all sarcasm all the time.

The standards that you hold the US to, don't apply o anyone else, apparently.

I'm all for holding the US and it's soldiers to a "higher" standard. I would just like that standard to be at least liberally applied to those we are fighting against, politically and militarily.

That's too much to ask here, though.

1) Please give us some leftist "pro-saddam" quotes. You failed in your first attempt.

2) When I asked you to define "coercive interrogation," you said the following things are bad:


Anything that involves physical harm, draws blood or interrupts bodily function, should be off limits, IMO.


Define "physical harm." Does interrupting bodily functions include sleep deprivation? And does it have to draw blood? Can you hold a prisoner's head under water until he thinks he's going to drown? What about intimidation? Can I use dogs? Snakes? Sexy women? Can I shock people? Lightly, nothing hard. Can I make someone like you look at child pornography for days on end, shocking you if you look away? What about exporting prisoners to other countries where they CAN be tortured?

At any rate, if this is what you actually think should be off limits, you're seriously on the wrong side of this one.

That is, unless you play the "WE. ARE. AT. WAR." card without noting the delicious irony that Oceana is at war with Eurasia. Oceana has always been at war with Eurasia.

[giant]

In addition
Originally posted by NaplesX
Anything that involves physical harm, draws blood or interrupts bodily function, should be off limits, IMO.
So as long as the guards use enough lube to avoid causing bleeding when ass raping children it's OK, not torture and just 'coercive interrogation.'

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by NaplesX

The standards that you hold the US to, don't apply o anyone else, apparently.

Dude. If you're OK with the American military, who represent you, who you pay for, who are fighting for values you believe to be worthwhile, if you're OK with them actually torturing people... you can't come to my birthday party.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Dude. If you're OK with the American military, who represent you, who you pay for, who are fighting for values you believe to be worthwhile, if you're OK with them actually torturing people, and you think that because some self-appointed bastards accountable to no-one and unrepresentative of anyone do it then it gives your troops an excuse... you can't come to my birthday party. Are you that stupid?

When have I sad that torture is OK?

I have said MANY times just the opposite.

Forget it, You are not worth the brain electrons.

[FormerLurker]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Forget it, You are not worth the brain electrons. As if you had any to spare...

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Midwinter can come. And groverat. And giant, he's coming. And Segovius. He's making a cake.

But you can't, because you think there's an excuse for torturing people.

:)

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by midwinter
1) Please give us some leftist "pro-saddam" quotes. You failed in your first attempt.

2) When I asked you to define "coercive interrogation," you said the following things are bad:



Define "physical harm." Does interrupting bodily functions include sleep deprivation? And does it have to draw blood? Can you hold a prisoner's head under water until he thinks he's going to drown? What about intimidation? Can I use dogs? Snakes? Sexy women? Can I shock people? Lightly, nothing hard. Can I make someone like you look at child pornography for days on end, shocking you if you look away? What about exporting prisoners to other countries where they CAN be tortured?

At any rate, if this is what you actually think should be off limits, you're seriously on the wrong side of this one.

That is, unless you play the "WE. ARE. AT. WAR." card without noting the delicious irony that Oceana is at war with Eurasia. Oceana has always been at war with Eurasia. You guys are so predictable. There is no way that you will see any quote that I place here as anything but what you want to see it as.

Ramsey Clark is the guy that headed up the SH defense team. He has been fighting for SH since the 90's. I would call that Pro-SH. You don't

Conyers used Clintons weakest moment to try to strong-arm him into removing sanctions against SH. Once again pro-SH.

McDermott essentially said that SH was more trustworthy than his own president. Oh yeah, he did so while standing in Baghdad. I would have to say that's pro-SH.

Hill erroneously claimed that conditions for women was better under SH. Sure she said SH was "an equal opportunity oppressor" but that's quite a step up from Mass-muerderer. Pro-SH if I ever saw it.

Now, once again this is just my observation and opinion. You are free to disagree or prove me wrong, if you want to. However, I've made my point and established how I've come to that conclusion. You can dismiss it or accept it, but I'm not going to waste my time or yours to chase down quotes for you to say "That's it? Come up with some real evidence." every time I post.

As far as the Coercive Interrogation thing. I was pithy because the line between torture and coercive interrogation is very thin. It will have to be something that needs to be defined very clearly, IMO.

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Midwinter can come. And groverat. And giant, he's coming. And Segovius. He's making a cake.

But you can't, because you think there's an excuse for torturing people.

:) Can Saddam come?

According to GQ he's a pretty friendly and interesting guy.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by NaplesX
Can Saddam come?

According to GQ he's a pretty friendly and interesting guy.
No. He can't. He's a bastard.

(Heh. You thought you were going to catch me out. ;) )

[NaplesX]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
No. He can't. He's a bastard.

(Heh. You thought you were going to catch me out. ;) ) Not really. Just returning some sarcastic banter.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Midwinter can come.

Will be in London Friday.

[groverat]

Enough.