Hillary v. Condoleezza 2008

[DanMacMan]

With the possibility of having two polarizing women running for the Presidency in 2008, who would you vote for between Hillary and Condi?

[Aurora]

A freshman Senator with no record vs someone who never held a elected office. They both Bite.

[midwinter]

They're actually different?

And Aurora: you have misspelled "incumbents" in your sig. Unless you meant to.

[Aurora]

Originally posted by midwinter
They're actually different?

And Aurora: you have misspelled "incumbents" in your sig. Unless you meant to. Thank you, i think the nation can do much better then these two. WE NEED A DECENT GOVERNOR WITH A GREAT Record. Not two partison clowns that have done..............................what?

[audiopollution]

Originally posted by Aurora
Thank you, i think the nation can do much better then these two. WE NEED A DECENT GOVERNOR WITH A GREAT Record. Not two partison clowns that have done..............................what?

Jeb for President!

:\

[midwinter]

Originally posted by audiopollution
Jeb for President!

:\

I'll be stunned if Jeb runs, what with his family craziness and the election shit in Florida.

I suspect that Mark Warner or Evan Bayh will be the DLC-pick for President, but that there'll be an Edwards insurgency representing left-ish positions, even though he ain't left.

On the right? Frist, certainly. Santorum *might* throw his hat in, but I doubt it. McCain will run.

I just had a thought: What about Powell?

[Aurora]

Originally posted by audiopollution
Jeb for President!

:\ His name is going to be a Negative.....i dont think the country could handle another Bush.

[BRussell]

Hillary. Even though she'll probably win the primary, I hope she doesn't. I don't have anything against her but JESUS CHRIST CAN'T WE FIND SOMEONE OTHER THAN A BUSH OR A CLINTON. It's been one of them since 1988, and I'm truly sick of both families. If the goal is just to tick off the rednecks, why not just go all out and nominate Barack Obama.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by BRussell
why not just go all out and nominate Barack Obama.

Because while Obama has proven himself to be a commanding speaker and a generally pretty guy, he's pretty spineless.

[DanMacMan]

Originally posted by midwinter
On the right? Frist, certainly. Santorum *might* throw his hat in, but I doubt it. McCain will run.
I just had a thought: What about Powell?
As a conservative, I have to say that politically, I am completely turned off by Bill Frist. He is completely uninspiring, and of late not too successful with the up/down vote who-ha. As of today, I am most interested in Giuliani, although I dont think he appeals as much to the ultra social conservatives. I also think George Allen may have a shot, with Mormon Mit an outside shot. As for Powell, no way he runs. And dont write off Cheney either, remember how old Reagan was...

[BRussell]

Originally posted by midwinter
Because while Obama has proven himself to be a commanding speaker and a generally pretty guy, he's pretty spineless. Yeah?

[midwinter]

Originally posted by DanMacMan
As a conservative, I have to say that politically, I am completely turned off by Bill Frist. He is completely uninspiring, and of late not too successful with the up/down vote who-ha.

In addition to being a turd.

As of today, I am most interested in Giuliani, although I dont think he appeals as much to the ultra social conservatives. I also think George Allen may have a shot, with Mormon Mit an outside shot.

No way America elects a Mormon, much less Mit Romney, as president. NO WAY. This country has all kinds of fears about a Catholic what with the Pope...but a MORMON? Taking orders from President and Prophet Gordon B. Hinkley? I think not.

As for Powell, no way he runs. And dont write off Cheney either, remember how old Reagan was... [/B]

The problem with Cheney, if you remember, is that he left politics because he had heart trouble. Then he was hired by the Bush 2000 campaign to find a suitable VP candidate, and found....HIMSELF! Then the "Bush Campaign Physicians" OK'd him to serve. He's had what, FOUR heart attacks while in office? And his gay daughter and his position on gay rights will turn away loads of the froth-at-the-mouth freeper-reading Jesus-loving Republicans who have been stirred out of their slumber like some rough beast slouching towards Bethlehem. And that's the group what got Bush elected in 2004.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by BRussell
Yeah?

When Obama voted to confirm Rice, I lost all respect for him. He gives a mean speech, though.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by midwinter
When Obama voted to confirm Rice, I lost all respect for him. He gives a mean speech, though. Most Dems did vote for her. I personally wouldn't put too much on that vote, put to each his own. In any case, I think history tells us that Senators don't do very well in general when they run for president. Which is a good thing because Frist is an absolute shoe-in for the Republican nomination.

A Democrat apparently has to be a southern governor to win. Maybe some other kind of non-Washington politician, like Wes Clark or Bill Richardson. I'd vote for my current governor, a gun-toting Western rancher populist not afraid of Republicans. :)

[midwinter]

Originally posted by BRussell
Most Dems did vote for her.

Believe me. I know.

A Democrat apparently has to be a southern governor to win.

That's why I said Mark Warner.

Maybe some other kind of non-Washington politician, like Wes Clark or Bill Richardson. I'd vote for my current governor, a gun-toting Western rancher populist not afraid of Republicans. :)

You're in Wyoming, right? Reminds me, I need to drive up there and bootleg some beer....

[MACchine]

I'd vote for Monica !!!

[Protostar]

I'd vote for Rice. Hillary destroyed herself with that Universal Healthcare thing. To me she's to much of a socialist. She's tried to moderate herself towards the center but I think she's just doing that to get support not b.c she's really changed.

[progmac]

Originally posted by Protostar
I'd vote for Rice. Hillary destroyed herself with that Universal Healthcare thing. To me she's to much of a socialist. She's tried to moderate herself towards the center but I think she's just doing that to get support not b.c she's really changed.
dude, do you ever have any idea what you're talking about?

[e1618978]

Originally posted by midwinter
When Obama voted to confirm Rice, I lost all respect for him. He gives a mean speech, though.

Of all the people in the Bush administration, she seems to be doing the best job. I would vote for Condi.

She does not seem too religious, and that is my main problem with the current admin. And she seems to be doing a much better job than General Powell.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
Of all the people in the Bush administration, she seems to be doing the best job.

The best job at what? Toeing the line better than Powell?

She does not seem too religious, and that is my main problem with the current admin.

Well, she's a pointy-headed academic child prodigy on the piano cum Russia expert. She ain't got time to God and Jesus.

And she seems to be doing a much better job than General Powell.

Powell was trying to stave off the barbarians at the gate. Rice was one of the barbarians trying to get in.

[Moe_in_Texas]

Hill is as sharp as a tack. She is moderating and spending a lot of time with Republicans. She is maybe the only Dem with a clue of how to win.

[Anders]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Hill is as sharp as a tack. She is moderating and spending a lot of time with Republicans. She is maybe the only Dem with a clue of how to win.

That may be an electable feature about her. But not a positive one. To paraphrase someone else, If the democrats puts a conservative up against the conservatives, a conservative will win.

On the social issues both Obama and Hillary have proved themselves to be crowd pleasers.

Bill for Prez `08

[Moe_in_Texas]

The only agenda important to Hill is her own. She will package herself any way she needs to win and have power. That's what makes Hill tick.

[groverat]

Southern Republicans, by and large, will not vote for a black woman. Running Rice would do nothing but create a guaranteed Democrat win as there would be a massive right-wing third-party upswell.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Anders
On the social issues both Obama and Hillary have proved themselves to be crowd pleasers. What social issues are you talking about?

[Northgate]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Hill is as sharp as a tack. She is moderating and spending a lot of time with Republicans. She is maybe the only Dem with a clue of how to win.

Hillary is definitely working it behind-the-scenes for her bid in '08...

Rupert Murdoch and Hillary Clinton: New Odd Couple (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/6/15/232033.shtml)

Other signs of a pending political union between the two:

A reportedly "cordial" 2002 lunch between Murdoch and the senator at News Corp.'s private dining room at its Rockefeller Center headquarters.

Bill Clinton's "energetic" courting of Murdoch and his son, Lachlan, who runs the Post. Clinton toured the Post's newsroom in January 2003. Smith reported that Bill Clinton has lunched alone with the senior Murdoch, and this June he delivered a recorded tribute at the birthday party of the former Republican operative who runs Fox News, Roger Ailes.

"I know ... you're thinking somebody put the wrong video in the machine," he reportedly began. "I am especially grateful that Roger didn't work in the 1992 campaign. I mean, who knows how different history would have been if he had. I would have been spared all of his barbs in his later life as a media mogul, but I wouldn't have had the chance to be president."

[midwinter]

Originally posted by BRussell
What social issues are you talking about?

Indeed. I was tremendously pleased by the way then first lady Clinton abandoned national health care.

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by groverat
Southern Republicans, by and large, will not vote for a black woman. Running Rice would do nothing but create a guaranteed Democrat win as there would be a massive right-wing third-party upswell.

But she is neither Black nor a Woman...

Badum dum. Clank.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
But she is neither Black nor a Woman...

Badum dum. Clank.

Hell, they could just build her a ranch in Georgia and pretend that it's her historic family home.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by midwinter
Indeed. I was tremendously pleased by the way then first lady Clinton abandoned national health care. I seem to remember then first lady Clinton proposing national health care, not abandoning it. :???:

[SDW2001]

I think Rice wins vs. Hillary. It would sap the African American vote, or a quite a bit of it from the Dems. Rice and Clinton in a debate would be interesting. I'm not sure I agree with Southern Republicans not voting for Rice, either. That could be true, but I'd want to see some poll numbers first. In any case, there would be a huge amount of positive press for the Republicans...that they're running a black female for President. A lot of the race baiting would fall by the wayside. Without traditional Democratic strongholds, I think Hillary loses.

The other problem for Hillary, regardless, is that her unfavorables among women are still high. If she runs against a man, she needs high support from women to win (as would any female candidate facing a male opponent). Right now she does not have enough support in that group from my understanding. Facing a man, she'll lose white males overwhelmingly, and she'll have a tought time swinging Republicans. Facing Rice, she might eek out a win with white males, but I think she'll split the women's vote at best. She's aslso going to be fighting an uphill battle trying to get to the middle and not be branded as a total liberal like Kerry was (she'll do a hell of a job trying though, and will succeed in some ways ). Overall however, I just don't see how she puts it together.

As for other Republican candidates, Frist and Santorum suck.
Powell will most likely not run, but if he does, you have to like his chances. George Allen has a decent shot. Jeb Bush has said he won't run. I don't Romney has what it takes either. I am nearly positive Cheney will not run.

An Allen/Rice ticket perhaps? I think that would bea good bet.

[hardeeharhar]

Condi could not carry the African American vote, and the same goes for women... She is too much of a freak of nature....

[groverat]

I'm not sure I agree with Southern Republicans not voting for Rice, either. That could be true, but I'd want to see some poll numbers first.

Poll numbers? :lol:
Why not look at the number of black females in powerful elected positions in the South.
It won't take you long because they aren't there. Ever. None.

Running Rice is nothing more than begging for a loss. She will cost the Republicans a ton of votes they can't afford to lose and she'll be torn apart because she's a joke of a candidate regardless of race or gender. She has no credentials and no experience except as a "look, we like blacks and women" token of administrations called "Bush".

The Republicans are way too smart to run Rice. For all the banter from the loyalists, neither a black person nor a female will run the party for a long long time.

You can believe it all you want up there in Pennsylvania, but all you know about the South is how the Republicans manipulate them to get votes.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by SDW2001
I'm not sure I agree with Southern Republicans not voting for Rice, either. That could be true, but I'd want to see some poll numbers first.

Dear god.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by SDW2001
I'm not sure I agree with Southern Republicans not voting for Rice, either. That could be true, but I'd want to see some poll numbers first.


0 - ad infinitum

[e1618978]

Why not look at the number of black females in powerful elected positions in the South.
It won't take you long because they aren't there. Ever. None.

http://www.nndb.com/people/035/000039915/

I think that Condi could win in the south.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by e1618978
http://www.nndb.com/people/035/000039915/

I think that Condi could win in the south.

Nope. Carpetbagger.

[groverat]

e#s:

I said: "black females in powerful elected positions"

powerful

Show me a state senator or a governator.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by groverat
e#s:

I said: "black females in powerful elected positions"

powerful

Show me a state senator or a governator.

Show me a black woman who ran as a republican or democrat and lost. It could be that southerners will not vote for a black woman, but I bet it is more likely that the two major parties were too scared to even find out.

The southerners I know would be fine voting for a black woman that represented them well.

In North Carolina, the amount of hate I have heard expressed towards Hillary far exceeds any racist or sexist notions I have heard expressed.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by e1618978
In North Carolina, the amount of hate I have heard expressed towards Hillary far exceeds any racist or sexist notions I have heard expressed.

That's because racism towards african-americans is a big no-no. Hillary, on the other hand, is white so, ...

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
That's because racism towards african-americans is a big no-no. Hillary, on the other hand, is white so, ...

I have been with native Southerners in situations where they would be comfortable expressing racist notions.

I think that you all have some serious misconceptions about the south. Even groverat, who I think has lived in texas his whole life - the south is not a contiguous racist blob.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
That's because racism towards african-americans is a big no-no. Hillary, on the other hand, is white so, ...

It's only a big no-no in PUBLIC.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by midwinter
It's only a big no-no in PUBLIC.

Of course.

[addabox]

Originally posted by Protostar
I'd vote for Rice. Hillary destroyed herself with that Universal Healthcare thing. To me she's to much of a socialist. She's tried to moderate herself towards the center but I think she's just doing that to get support not b.c she's really changed.

Good points.

I also think the Hookman is right out. His penchant for lonely stretch of highway boyfriend eviscerations will cost him the traumatized girlfriend vote, and his recent "I only skin the enemies of freedom" rhetoric is too little, too late.

Ditto The Guy Who's Calling the Babysitter From Upstairs, the Mental Patient Who's Pretending to be the Doctor He Just Killed, and That Really Creepy Guy That Lives Down By the Dump.

[groverat]

e#:

Show me a black woman who ran as a republican or democrat and lost. It could be that southerners will not vote for a black woman, but I bet it is more likely that the two major parties were too scared to even find out.

Scared of what? The fact that a black woman would never win?

How do people not from the states in discussion know voting patterns better than the political leaders of those states whose sole job is to secure victory for their party? It's nonsense.

There are two choices here:
- There are no powerful elected black women in the South because it is not yet possible for them to win.
- There are no powerful elected black women in the South because no one has ever thought to try it.

One of those makes sense, the other one doesn't.

The South doesn't have to be a contiguous racist blob for a black woman to be completely unelectable. The mentality is not "I ain't votin' for her because she's a black woman". If only racism were that overt we (Southerners) could actually move forward in a more effective way. It's about decades and decades of being manipulated and conditioned by the elites into having automatic responses to myriad factors relating to race, gender and (most importantly), class.

Condoleeza is unelectable in the South. It's the truth.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by addabox
Good points.

I also think the Hookman is right out. His penchant for lonely stretch of highway boyfriend eviscerations will cost him the traumatized girlfriend vote, and his recent "I only skin the enemies of freedom" rhetoric is too little, too late.

Ditto The Guy Who's Calling the Babysitter From Upstairs, the Mental Patient Who's Pretending to be the Doctor He Just Killed, and That Really Creepy Guy That Lives Down By the Dump.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Moe_in_Texas]

I think that Condi's performance in the Bush Administration has impressed Republicans to the point that her color does not matter. Republicans like her.

The left must hate that the first prominent black female in the Federal Gov is part of an administration they like to consider red neck and racist.

Note: "Condi" is short for "Condoleeza" and should not be misconstrued as a racial slur.

[groverat]

Condi is an appendage. Her "performance" is non-existent. She's a face and a name that's put out there and is meaningless.
She has no experience. She has no history outside of being told what to do by guys named "Bush".

You can believe it all you want, but show me powerful elected black women in the South. Just show me.

[Moe_in_Texas]

Sheila Jackson Lee?

[groverat]

Powerful.
We've been through this already. Give it up.

Southern White Republican men will not vote in a black woman for powerful office. They won't do it. It hasn't happened yet and it's not going to happen anytime soon.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by groverat
Powerful.
We've been through this already. Give it up.

Southern White Republican men will not vote in a black woman for powerful office. They won't do it. It hasn't happened yet and it's not going to happen anytime soon.

But Grover! Just consider all of those black women governors in states like Mississippi and Alabama!

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by groverat
Poll numbers? :lol:
Why not look at the number of black females in powerful elected positions in the South.
It won't take you long because they aren't there. Ever. None.

Running Rice is nothing more than begging for a loss. She will cost the Republicans a ton of votes they can't afford to lose and she'll be torn apart because she's a joke of a candidate regardless of race or gender. She has no credentials and no experience except as a "look, we like blacks and women" token of administrations called "Bush".

The Republicans are way too smart to run Rice. For all the banter from the loyalists, neither a black person nor a female will run the party for a long long time.

You can believe it all you want up there in Pennsylvania, but all you know about the South is how the Republicans manipulate them to get votes.

No credentials? I was going find highlights, but I think it's more effective if you just read the whole bio. Add to the top of the list: Secretary of State, 2005-present

Dr. Condoleezza Rice became the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, commonly referred to as the National Security Advisor, on January 22, 2001.

In June 1999, she completed a six year tenure as Stanford University 's Provost, during which she was the institution's chief budget and academic officer. As Provost she was responsible for a $1.5 billion annual budget and the academic program involving 1,400 faculty members and 14,000 students.

As professor of political science, Dr. Rice has been on the Stanford faculty since 1981 and has won two of the highest teaching honors -- the 1984 Walter J. Gores Award for Excellence in Teaching and the 1993 School of Humanities and Sciences Dean's Award for Distinguished Teaching.

At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions.

From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military.

She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors. She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula . In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco.

Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she earned her bachelor's degree in political science, cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981. She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded honorary doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, the University of Notre Dame in 1995, the National Defense University in 2002, the Mississippi College School of Law in 2003, the University of Louisville and Michigan State University in 2004. She resides in Washington, D.C.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by groverat
Condi is an appendage. Her "performance" is non-existent. She's a face and a name that's put out there and is meaningless.
She has no experience. She has no history outside of being told what to do by guys named "Bush".

You can believe it all you want, but show me powerful elected black women in the South. Just show me.

See above.

[Aurora]

Maybe she should run for Mayor somewhere but having never been elected for anything the American people wouldnt have her as President. Enough said .............next?

[addabox]

Originally posted by SDW2001
No credentials? I was going find highlights, but I think it's more effective if you just read the whole bio. Add to the top of the list: Secretary of State, 2005-present

Uh huh. As is widely known, Dr. Rice had a distinguished academic career, fairly narrowly focused on Sovietology with an ideological filter, which accounts for her brief stint in Bush I as "academic" window dressing.

Which accounts for her presence in Bush II, which appropriated large chunks of earlier, more adult Republican administrations in an effort to ameliorate the painful lack of gravitas evinced by junior.

None of that strikes me as "credentials" for a presidential run. I can't see how it would strike anyone that way, but, there you go: zealots are scary and stupid.

As far as her actual proximate experience in governance, at NSA, you have her abject performance around the invasion of Iraq, as semi-belligerent mouth piece for what we now know were a pack of lies. Apparently being expert in a no longer existent state doesn't necessarily grant you powers of discretion or self respect. Her testimony before Congress was a national scandal.

At least Powell had the decency to appear uncomfortable in his role as spokes-liar.

Other than that, does her time in Washington have any distinguishing features?

Blind fealty to a manifestly failed foreign adventure and then blend into the woodwork. Yeah, where do we get off questioning her "credentials".

[groverat]

That's a beautiful copy/paste of a meaningless bio.

[Northgate]

I would never vote for Condi Rice simply because she has zero credibility.

We can argue all day about whether or not Hillary made $50,000 on White Water or not. But Condi Rice was the National Security Advisor on 9/11. And she's lied through her teeth (well documented) to cover things up and protect Bush. That, to me, is unforgiveable.

[MACchine]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
That's because racism towards african-americans is a big no-no. Hillary, on the other hand, is white so, ...


I will be running for the presidency VERY SOON...


... SO YOU CAN ALL vote for ME !!!

I am having my skin died green so now you will be able to recognize me ! :D

[DanMacMan]

I still contend that a black man will hold the office of the President before a white woman.

[groverat]

I agree with you 100%.

Unless the two options are a white woman and a black woman. In which case, the white woman will win. But that's the only way.

white woman v. black man = black man president