Republicans: Liberals Want Troops to Die [Archive]

Northgate

06-23-2005, 01:04 PM

So where is SCLM's outrage over these statements (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/politics/23rove.html?) by Karl Rove?

Durbin apologized. What about Rove?

"Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers."

Mr. Rove also said, "American armed forces overseas were in more jeopardy as a result of remarks last week by Senator Richard J. Durbin, Democrat of Illinois, who compared American mistreatment of detainees to the acts of "Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime - Pol Pot or others."

"Has there ever been a more revealing moment this year?" Mr. Rove asked. "Let me just put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals."

So there you go. Liberals: their only intent is getting our troops killed.

I hope Republicans and Republican apologists are happy with their new found love in life...villifying their own countrymen, pointing fingers at their own brothers and calling them traitors. I hope you're proud.

Northgate

06-23-2005, 01:08 PM

Three days after the terrorist attacks, the Senate voted 98-0 and the House voted 420-1 for a resolution authorizing Bush to use "all necessary and appropriate force" against those responsible for the terrorism. After the votes, Bush said in a statement: "I am gratified that the Congress has united so powerfully by taking this action. It sends a clear message — our people are together, and we will prevail."

Yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050623/ap_on_re_us/rove_speech_4)

Northgate

06-23-2005, 01:11 PM

FASCISM

The term fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that in various combinations:

exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual.

stresses loyalty to a single leader.

uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition.

engages in severe economic and social regimentation.

engages in corporatism.

implements totalitarianism.

BRussell

06-23-2005, 01:30 PM

I guess we can just hope that people see them as going too far and demagoging. Now they've got the flag-burning amendment going again too.

I wonder - are people sick of the "liberals love terrorists and hate America" schtick? Or will it work? I mean, about half of the country votes for these alleged America haters. Will they get mad at this kind of rhetoric in the same way that the conservatives supposedly got turned off by Michael Moore and Hollywood being so mean to them?

groverat

06-23-2005, 01:50 PM

Fascism is a stupid word to use. Mussolini had the best definition for it. When asked what "fascism" was he said, "Me".

CosmoNut

06-23-2005, 03:49 PM

When was the last time something truly thought-provoking was brought up in this liberals v. conservatives conversation?

"There were WMDs."
"No there weren't."
"Saddam was a threat to the U.S."
"No he wasn't."
"Bush had plans to go into Iraq before 9/11"
"No he didn't."
"Soldiers flushed the Kuran."
"No they didn't."
"Liberals want soldiers to die."
"No they don't."

When are we going to have an intelligent conversation instead of acting like feuding siblings?

Moe_in_Texas

06-23-2005, 03:51 PM

Of course comments like those of Senator Durbin put our troups in more danger! These comments put an even bigger target on their backs. I don't think that people like Durbin want our troops killed, but I do think that they are clueless to the effects of such talk. His comments were ignorant. He should be cut down to size by Rove.

Northgate

06-23-2005, 04:08 PM

Do we live in a free society or not?

Do we have the right to protest or not?

Northgate

06-23-2005, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by CosmoNut
When was the last time something truly thought-provoking was brought up in this liberals v. conservatives conversation?

"There were WMDs."
"No there weren't."
"Saddam was a threat to the U.S."
"No he wasn't."
"Bush had plans to go into Iraq before 9/11"
"No he didn't."
"Soldiers flushed the Kuran."
"No they didn't."
"Liberals want soldiers to die."
"No they don't."

When are we going to have an intelligent conversation instead of acting like feuding siblings?

Ask Karl Rove that question. If it were merely people like us on message boards saying this crap, then I would agree with you. But we're talking about The President of the United States Chief Political Advisor saying this inflammatory crap.

Northgate

06-23-2005, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Of course comments like those of Senator Durbin put our troups in more danger! These comments put an even bigger target on their backs. I don't think that people like Durbin want our troops killed, but I do think that they are clueless to the effects of such talk. His comments were ignorant. He should be cut down to size by Rove.

So putting our troops in a country they don't belong in the first place and then using them to shove American values down Iraq's throats doesn't put a target on their backs?

How convenient.

"We're at war now, so shut the f*ck the up."

Moe_in_Texas

06-23-2005, 05:02 PM

Durbin's remarks went far beyond speaking out. He made outrageous statements.

CosmoNut

06-23-2005, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Northgate
...we're talking about The President of the United States Chief Political Advisor saying this inflammatory crap.
And shame on him for doing so, but you can't hold Democrats blameless for any of the mudslinging, either.

My point is both parties do it and I'd LOVE for someone to start a dialogue. I'd also like to hear regular updates from the Bush administration about where we are now in Iraq and Afghanistan. Inconsequently, I'd also like to hear Democrats start asking, "where can we help with finishing this up?" instead of CONSTANTLY finding things to complain about while bringing nothing to the table.

Aries 1B

06-23-2005, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Northgate
So where is SCLM's outrage over these statements (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/politics/23rove.html?) by Karl Rove?

Durbin apologized. What about Rove?

So there you go. Liberals: their only intent is getting our troops killed.

I hope Republicans and Republican apologists are happy with their new found love in life...villifying their own countrymen, pointing fingers at their own brothers and calling them traitors. I hope you're proud.

If intelligent life is found on Mars, I will be less surprised at that than at the fact that after the Liberal's non-stop villification of Republicans, the President, and the Gitmo Drumbeat, they actually, incredibly expect an apology from Karl Rove.

Protest all you want. Protest what you want. The same rights to free speech apply to Mister Rove and the Republicans as well.

You reached the wrong conclusion from Karl Rove. It is not 'Liberals: their only intent is getting our troops killed.', you should have written 'Liberals: the result of their actions and statements is that our troops are getting killed.'

BTW, in no shape or form do I consider Liberals my brothers. Crazy fucking cousins (multiply removed, perhaps and from a branch of the family I'd just as soon not associate with) maybe, to be ignored, certainly, but not brothers.

'Newfound love... villifying their countrymen'. Context dropping taken to interstellar heights.
V/R,

Aries 1B

giant

06-23-2005, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Durbin's remarks went far beyond speaking out. He made outrageous statements.
Bullshit. He cited specific instances of prisoner abuse and pointed out that they are something we have traditionally expected from totalitarian regimes, and this is absolutely true. The only problems were the subsequent distortions from ignorant biased people whose knowledge of history doesn't go beyong "lincoln freed the slaves, the nazis killed the jews and clinton is a serial killer."

Northgate

06-23-2005, 06:47 PM

Moe_in_Texas

06-23-2005, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by giant
Bullshit. He cited specific instances of prisoner abuse and pointed out that they are something we have traditionally expected from totalitarian regimes, and this is absolutely true. The only problems were the subsequent distortions from ignorant biased people whose knowledge of history doesn't go beyong "lincoln freed the slaves, the nazis killed the jews and clinton is a serial killer."

No comparison between the regimes he sited and US activities in Iraq or Cuba.

MACchine

06-23-2005, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by BRussell
I guess we can just hope that people see them as going too far and demagoging. Now they've got the flag-burning amendment going again too.

I wonder - are people sick of the "liberals love terrorists and hate America" schtick? Or will it work? I mean, about half of the country votes for these alleged America haters. Will they get mad at this kind of rhetoric in the same way that the conservatives supposedly got turned off by Michael Moore and Hollywood being so mean to them?

LIBERALS can only find that they have gone TOO far by testing the waters and making mistakes. Of course now the senator appologises MUCH later after seeing the results of his actions.

He DID NOT KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING !!!

And this is the rub he should have, HIS JOB AS A SENATOR IS TO KNOW WHAT EFFECT HIS WORDS WILL HAVE.

Well, he can get therapy now and be comiserated by the miserable !!!

WHEN IS THIS GOING TO END ???

These people have NOTHING good, NOTING to offer, the MORE LIBERAL they become the MORE USELESS THEY BECOME !!!

And why do we put up with it ??? :err: :err: :err:

addabox

06-23-2005, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Aries 1B
If intelligent life is found on Mars, I will be less surprised at that than at the fact that after the Liberal's non-stop villification of Republicans, the President, and the Gitmo Drumbeat, they actually, incredibly expect an apology from Karl Rove.

Protest all you want. Protest what you want. The same rights to free speech apply to Mister Rove and the Republicans as well.

You reached the wrong conclusion from Karl Rove. It is not 'Liberals: their only intent is getting our troops killed.', you should have written 'Liberals: the result of their actions and statements is that our troops are getting killed.'

BTW, in no shape or form do I consider Liberals my brothers. Crazy fucking cousins (multiply removed, perhaps and from a branch of the family I'd just as soon not associate with) maybe, to be ignored, certainly, but not brothers.

'Newfound love... villifying their countrymen'. Context dropping taken to interstellar heights.
V/R,

Aries 1B

:lol: Amazing. Sending American troops into a country on false pretenses, without an exit strategy or any real plan or metric for "winning", so they can become targets of an intractable insurgency while waiting on some clarification of their "mission" isn't what gets those troops killed, it's speaking out in favor of fundamental American values.

But of course it should never be necessary to criticize anything America ever does because America never makes mistakes, and even if it does those mistakes should be quietly dealt with in secret because we must trust our government will always do so in the fullness of time.

"Fascism" does get tossed around to easily, but one of the main strategies of building fascist power is to to put the state on a permanent war/beset by external enemies footing, so that any criticism of the government can always be regarded as an attack on the security of the state and as aiding and abetting the "enemy".

But of course the right wing America would never do that. Pretty soon now we'll "win" that darn war on terrorism, and we can go back to being able to say whatever we want and due process and all that fun stuff that the current emergency makes a luxury we cannot afford.

And you pricks want to be taken seriously as "patriots". Jesus.

addabox

06-23-2005, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by MACchine
LIBERALS can only find that they have gone TOO far by testing the waters and making mistakes. Of course now the senator appologises MUCH later after seeing the results of his actions.

He DID NOT KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING !!!

And this is the rub he should have, HIS JOB AS A SENATOR IS TO KNOW WHAT EFFECT HIS WORDS WILL HAVE.

Well, he can get therapy now and be comiserated by the miserable !!!

WHEN IS THIS GOING TO END ???

These people have NOTHING good, NOTING to offer, the MORE LIBERAL they become the MORE USELESS THEY BECOME !!!

And why do we put up with it ??? :err: :err: :err:

JEWS can only find that they have gone TOO far by testing the waters and making mistakes. Of course now the jew appologises MUCH later after seeing the results of his actions.

He DID NOT KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING !!!

And this is the rub he should have, HIS OBLIGATION AS A JEW IS TO KNOW WHAT EFFECT HIS WORDS WILL HAVE.

Well, he can get therapy now and be comiserated by the miserable !!!

WHEN IS THIS GOING TO END ???

These people have NOTHING good, NOTING to offer, the MORE JEWISH they become the MORE USELESS THEY BECOME !!!

And why do we put up with it ??? :err: :err: :err:

MACchine

06-23-2005, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by addabox
JEWS can only find that they have gone TOO far by testing the waters and making mistakes. Of course now the jew appologises MUCH later after seeing the results of his actions.

He DID NOT KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING !!!

And this is the rub he should have, HIS OBLIGATION AS A JEW IS TO KNOW WHAT EFFECT HIS WORDS WILL HAVE.

Well, he can get therapy now and be comiserated by the miserable !!!

WHEN IS THIS GOING TO END ???

These people have NOTHING good, NOTING to offer, the MORE JEWISH they become the MORE USELESS THEY BECOME !!!

And why do we put up with it ??? :err: :err: :err:

WEAK NO point !!!

This is ALL you have, comparing anyone that speaks and is not in your SOCIOPATHOLOGICAL circles to JANE FONDA or was it HILARY !!!

TIME TO VOTE THESE PEOPLE OUT every single one of them.

MACchine

06-23-2005, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by addabox
:lol: Amazing. Sending American troops into a country on false pretenses, without an exit strategy or any real plan or metric for "winning", so they can become targets of an intractable insurgency while waiting on some clarification of their "mission" isn't what gets those troops killed, it's speaking out in favor of fundamental American values.

But of course it should never be necessary to criticize anything America ever does because America never makes mistakes, and even if it does those mistakes should be quietly dealt with in secret because we must trust our government will always do so in the fullness of time.

"Fascism" does get tossed around to easily, but one of the main strategies of building fascist power is to to put the state on a permanent war/beset by external enemies footing, so that any criticism of the government can always be regarded as an attack on the security of the state and as aiding and abetting the "enemy".

But of course the right wing America would never do that. Pretty soon now we'll "win" that darn war on terrorism, and we can go back to being able to say whatever we want and due process and all that fun stuff that the current emergency makes a luxury we cannot afford.

And you pricks want to be taken seriously as "patriots". Jesus.

I don't think we sent them on false pretenses.

addabox

06-23-2005, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by MACchine
I don't think we sent them on false pretenses.

I think what you meant was: "I don't THNK we SENT THEM under FALSE PRETENSES!!!"

Once you've established a certain level of hysterical shouting as being your normal speaking voice, anything less comes off as oddly sedate.

Northgate

06-23-2005, 08:34 PM

Aries 1B

06-23-2005, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Northgate

It's a shame you cannot look beyond your own narrow minded view of the other 50%.

I know you are, but what am I?
:)

Let's put this Debate Of Our Times on the level that it deserves... "Cousin".
V/R,

Aries 1B

MACchine

06-23-2005, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by addabox
I think what you meant was: "I don't THNK we SENT THEM under FALSE PRETENSES!!!"

Once you've established a certain level of hysterical shouting as being your normal speaking voice, anything less comes off as oddly sedate.

no i did not mean that...

MACchine

06-23-2005, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by addabox
Amazing. Sending American troops into a country on false pretenses, without an exit strategy or any real plan or metric for "winning", so they can become targets of an intractable insurgency while waiting on some clarification of their "mission" isn't what gets those troops killed, it's speaking out in favor of fundamental American values.

But of course it should never be necessary to criticize anything America ever does because America never makes mistakes, and even if it does those mistakes should be quietly dealt with in secret because we must trust our government will always do so in the fullness of time.

"Fascism" does get tossed around to easily, but one of the main strategies of building fascist power is to to put the state on a permanent war/beset by external enemies footing, so that any criticism of the government can always be regarded as an attack on the security of the state and as aiding and abetting the "enemy".

But of course the right wing America would never do that. Pretty soon now we'll "win" that darn war on terrorism, and we can go back to being able to say whatever we want and due process and all that fun stuff that the current emergency makes a luxury we cannot afford.

And you pricks want to be taken seriously as "patriots". Jesus.

Well said. And absolutely accurate. If liberals do not fight this from escalating, we WILL end up with a country no different than Nazi Germany.

I was talking to this INSANE, FOOLISH, OFF THE WALL, OVER THE TOP, LOONY guy that claimed NOT to be liberal AT ALL.

And he swore that Georgy B. was JUST LIKE HITLER !??!?!?!

And then I told him what HITLER was REALLY LIKE -- MACchine guns in the belt way !!!

MACchine guns in the Germany parliament during the important vote that gave HITLER dictatorial POWERS !!!

THEN HE SAID HE did NOT know ANYTHING about HITLER ...

He WAS truly a LIBERAL, HAHA, HA, HAHA, HA, HAHA !!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

audiopollution

06-23-2005, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by MACchine
I was talking to this INSANE, FOOLISH, OFF THE WALL, OVER THE TOP, LOONY guy that claimed NOT to be liberal AT ALL.

And he swore that Georgy B. was JUST LIKE HITLER !??!?!?!

And then I told him what HITLER was REALLY LIKE -- MACchine guns in the belt way !!!

MACchine guns in the Germany parliament during the important vote that gave HITLER dictatorial POWERS !!!

THEN HE SAID HE did NOT know ANYTHING about HITLER ...

He WAS truly a LIBERAL, HAHA, HA, HAHA, HA, HAHA !!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

There must be a problem with the PM system here, as you don't seem to be receiving them. Odd.

SDW2001

06-23-2005, 10:18 PM

The creation of this thread was predictable. Of course, OF COURSE he's outraged...OUTRAGED I SAY!...at the horrible and devisive comments of Karl Rove.

Rove's comments are essentially accurate. Don't tell me that you didn't hear the calls for moderation and understanding and "winning hearts and minds" after 9/11. Some of you on this board were the ones making those comments.

The best part of this story is the ridiculous mock outrage shown by liberals, calling for Rove to resign. As if anything he said even begins to compare to the unprecedented personal attacks on the President and the troops themselves.

SDW2001

06-23-2005, 10:28 PM

By the way, where is the support for the title of this topic?

BRussell

06-23-2005, 10:32 PM

"Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals."

addabox

06-23-2005, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by SDW2001
The creation of this thread was predictable. Of course, OF COURSE he's outraged...OUTRAGED I SAY!...at the horrible and devisive comments of Karl Rove.

Well, yeah, essentially calling half the country treasonous is horrible and divisive. I think it's outrageous (although, coming from Rove, not particularly surprising), and I'm not posturing, as you seem to be implying. I dunno. Are you so jaded that you don't think it's possible for a public figure to say something so actually loathsome that people are actually offended? Or maybe you figure whatever damage done to the country by demonizing half its citizens has the advantage of flattering your sensibilities, so it's all good, in your book. Which makes you something other than a patriot.

Rove's comments are essentially accurate. Don't tell me that you didn't hear the calls for moderation and understanding and "winning hearts and minds" after 9/11. Some of you on this board were the ones making those comments.

Please provide links to these calls for "understanding" for the people who flew planes into the World Trade Towers. I'm sure we'd all like to see them.

I'm guessing that what you regard as calls for moderation was anyone who failed to froth at the mouth and rave about nuking the middle east or exterminating arabs. The ones who thought it might be a good idea to actually identify the culprits and bring them to justice. But in your book, that whole "justice" thing just doesn't have the requisite bloodlust, does it? Unless you shriek and jibber and wave a bloody flag, you must want to give terrorists "therapy". Gee, no wonder you hate "liberals". They're a product of the darkest recesses of your own fevered imagination.

Or maybe you're still sore about those of us who thought invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 was counterproductive.

Hey guess what, killer. It was. We either hang tough, getting more of our kids killed, propping up what is an entirely theoretical state for nobody knows how long, or we cut and run the risk of Iraq descending into the kind of free fire zone that's just tailor made for terrorist HQ. Might happen even if we stay the course.

But for people like you, a moment's thought about history, or culture, or tactics, or long term results, is simply appeasement and crypto-homosexual dithering. Never mind what works. Never mind actually reducing the threat to America.

That shit's for pussies. The important thing is to wave your dick around so that everybody knows what a bad-ass you are. Which is fun, as long as it's somebody else's kids that get to die to prove your point.

The best part of this story is the ridiculous mock outrage shown by liberals, calling for Rove to resign. As if anything he said even begins to compare to the unprecedented personal attacks on the President and the troops themselves. [/B]

"Unprecedented personal attacks" You must have a hard time keeping a straight face as you type. Heard any good Clinton jokes lately?

The president has been harshly criticized for failed polices, lack of candor and reckless disregard for the truth, and rightly so. We get to do that here in America.

Many people have been horrified to learn that America has used tactics better suited to a thugish dictatorship than one of the world's great democracies in prosecution of the war on terror. I have never seen a single denouncement of those tactics stray into a "personal attack on the troops" Please provide some evidence of this, or maybe you should stop trying to make your points by making shit up.

Karl Rove thinks half the country is guilty of treason, hates America, loves terrorists, and doesn't care that their vile beliefs get American GI's killed.

And your response is "he's right, and anyway, that's nothing compared to criticizing the president and objecting to torture."

Well, what a thoughtful fellow you are.

OBJRA10

06-24-2005, 12:21 AM

Addabox and MacMachine... clean it up, and FAST...

pfflam

06-24-2005, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Aries 1B
If intelligent life is found on Mars, I will be less surprised at that than at the fact that after the Liberal's non-stop villification of Republicans, the President, and the Gitmo Drumbeat, they actually, incredibly expect an apology from Karl Rove.

Protest all you want. Protest what you want. The same rights to free speech apply to Mister Rove and the Republicans as well.

You reached the wrong conclusion from Karl Rove. It is not 'Liberals: their only intent is getting our troops killed.', you should have written 'Liberals: the result of their actions and statements is that our troops are getting killed.'

BTW, in no shape or form do I consider Liberals my brothers. Crazy fucking cousins (multiply removed, perhaps and from a branch of the family I'd just as soon not associate with) maybe, to be ignored, certainly, but not brothers.

'Newfound love... villifying their countrymen'. Context dropping taken to interstellar heights.
V/R,

Aries 1B You are deeply misguided my friend.

I guess you watch FOX.

Lets talk about the non-stop shit-can thrown at Dean for his itsy-bitsy remarks that seemed a little critical . . . . then look at Rove!!!!

The problem is that the people who are really hurting America are placing the blame of the ever-present and high profile, yet non-existent as portrayed evil-bad-doer of the 'Liberals'.

I mean, who was it that absolutely LIED to the American People? . . . how much proof is needed to see this fact!!! not even the Downing Street Memos will covince these FOXfanatics, and yet it was so obvious from the start!!

Lied, and then threw our sons and daughters into a shit-hole miasma of violence and torture, just so their buddies can live out some backward fantasy of privatized free-market payday, dominoes (as if they believed in that one themselves shhesh) and bidless contracts in Iraq!!

Not to mention, just generally dragging our great nation completely through the dirt with his non-stop lying, internationally and to his own people . . . and creating incredibly deep and sure-to-last-for-ever enmity in the whole of the Mid East for, -what is obvious to almost everybody- a complete and utter idiotic power grab!!

It is NOT patriotic to support this administration simply because it was voted in by a bunch of FOX-blinded dupes, not when it is causing so much irreparable damage!!

hardhead

06-24-2005, 01:19 AM

First of all and most telling of all, the so-called liberal media as well as FOX (fair and balanced...) took Durbin's comments out of context.

Just to refresh the short term memory span some of you are unfortunately afflicted with, Durbin made the comparison after reading an FBI agent's report describing detainees at the Naval base in Guantanamo Bay as being chained to the floor without food or water in extreme temperatures.

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime - Pol Pot or others - that had no concern for human beings," Durbin said Tuesday.

As far as this specific incident goes, I'm pissed that Durbin appologized! He should have stuck to his guns. One can only imagine what sort of pressure was brought to bear on this man to make him appologize. Now THAT's truly pathetic.

Karl Rove, ah Karl Rove... Talk about a pathetic sack of rottenness... He IS despicable. A phony-ass chicken hawk of the worst sort. Hiding behind PATRIOTISM and the lives and honor of our military personel. This chump hasn't a clue of what honor is.

He (along with his White House pals...) and his pathetic ideology are what have put our troops lives, our lives and the lives of innocent Iraqis in danger. I'd bet all my worldy possesions that if you put this punk in a real life or death situation, he'd drop a fifty pound gold brick while crying for his momma... This holds true for most chicken-hawks.

What gives me the right to critizise Karl Rove? I KNOW what it's like to go up against folks trying to end your life in combat. I know what it's like to be wounded by friendly fire. I know what it's like to kill in the name of your country. Although at the time I had to do it to save my own skin.

For most of my life I was a fairly conservative Republican. After what I experienced in the so-called first Gulf War, I became a LIBERAL. Bush Sr. has blood on his hands from that war. Now his son (and his cronies...) have the blood of innocents on theirs.

OK ok, I'm starting to ramble... I get so frustrated speaking with, hearing or reading well-intentioned Republicans going on and on about how this administration is only doing what's best for the country. Guess what, no they are not. They are doing what is best for their own interest. That does not include the middle-class either. WAKE UP.

trumptman

06-24-2005, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by Northgate
So where is SCLM's outrage over these statements (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/politics/23rove.html?) by Karl Rove?

Durbin apologized. What about Rove?

Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....

Must breath....

Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahaha.....

Sorry. The assertion was just so laughable.

Nick

giant

06-24-2005, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
No comparison between the regimes he sited and US activities in Iraq or Cuba.
Obviously there is. The mistreatment of prisoners and the holding of prisoners without charges are things that I as an american have always associated with those kind of regimes, not my american government. In addition, the attempt by so many citizens to whitewash it, ignore problems (after all, simply pointing them out supposedly 'aids the enemy') and deflect attention from it reminds me of the mass delusion we've seen in the kind of political movements that have resulted in some of the worst periods in history.

It's extremely sad that we have so many people claiming to be patriots while being completely incapable of recognizing real, serious problems in their government. In reality, these people who whitewash the problems are the antithesis of good americans and their like-minded counterparts in other countries have lead to many of the worst regimes of history and the present.

FormerLurker

06-24-2005, 01:40 AM

thanks for borking up the page formatting, Nick.
wanna try editing your post and putting some s p a c e s into your fit of maniacal evil laughing?

EDIT: ahh, fixed. Thanks to whoever fixed it....

trumptman

06-24-2005, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by giant
Obviously there is. The mistreatment of prisoners and the holding of prisoners without charges are things that I as an american have always associated with those kind of regimes, not my american government. In addition, the attempt by so many citizens to whitewash it, ignore problems (after all, simply pointing them out supposedly 'aids the enemy') and deflect attention from it reminds me of the mass delusion we've seen in the kind of political movements that have resulted in some of the worst periods in history.

It's extremely sad that we have so many people claiming to be patriots while being completely incapable of recognizing real, serious problems in their government. In reality, these people who whitewash the problems are the antithesis of good americans and their like-minded counterparts in other countries have lead to many of the worst regimes of history and the present.

Hey, Nazi troops had uniforms. Our troops have uniforms. Nazi troops had guns. Our troops have guns. Nazi troops had a chain of command and military objectives. Our troops have a chain of command and military objectives.

OMGOSH, we are gassing millions of Jews in concentration camps and killing millions of innocent people because I found something in common between the two.

If A = B, that doesn't mean that B = A. If I am in Los Angeles, that does mean I am in California, but if I am in California, that doesn't necessarily mean I am in Los Angeles.

The fact that you can find something in common between Gitmo and the Gulag does not mean that Gitmo is the Gulag.

Nick

trumptman

06-24-2005, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by FormerLurker
thanks for borking up the page formatting, Nick.
wanna try editing your post and putting some s p a c e s into your fit of maniacal evil laughing?

EDIT: ahh, fixed. Thanks to whoever fixed it....

Man, I took like a whole 30 seconds to change that after I saw what it did.:lol:

Nick

giant

06-24-2005, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
Hey, Nazi troops had uniforms. Our troops have uniforms. Nazi troops had guns. Our troops have guns. Nazi troops had a chain of command and military objectives. Our troops have a chain of command and military objectives.

OMGOSH, we are gassing millions of Jews in concentration camps and killing millions of innocent people because I found something in common between the two.
Are you aware that this strawman is childish BS or are you just delusional? Approach the discussion like the informed adult you claim to be.

trumptman

06-24-2005, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by giant
Are you aware that this strawman is childish BS or are you just delusional? Approach the discussion like the informed adult you claim to be.

I was simply showcasing your own logic and reasoning for you.

You claim we are mistreating prisoners in a manner akin to regimes known for historical atrocities. Obviously we are not. It is you who are delusional and engaging in the worst sort of logical fallacies. I treated your reasoning with the deference it deserves. It is childish, silly reasoning and I gave it an appropriate response. Now stop equating being held at an uncomfortable temperature to gassing and murdering millions and perhaps I will give you an adult response to an adult claim. You can act like a whining child, but don't be surprised when I snicker at you and tell you to go play ball outside so the real adults can enjoy their discussion.

Nick

stupider...likeafox

06-24-2005, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
If A = B, that doesn't mean that B = A.

You've got to be kidding me!

stupider...likeafox

06-24-2005, 09:44 AM

It's old but some of you guys seem sadly unaware of it:

This is from an interview between US miliary chaplain and psychologist Gustave Gilbert and Hermann Goering, held at Goering's cell in Nuremberg before he killed himself.

We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

And of course you have the classic totalitarian primer text, 1984:

"In accordance with the principles of double-think it does not matter if the war is not real. For when it is, victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, but it is meant to be continuous. A hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance, this new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia but to keep the very structure of society intact."

giant

06-24-2005, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
I was simply showcasing your own logic and reasoning for you.
So you're delusional and haven't understood a thing here.

Acts like killing and ass raping prisoners are acts I've always associated with the brutal regimes of history and today, not with the US. I find it distressing that there are so many of you who feel otherwise.

Also, we don't have to wait until there's been mass murder to make any sort of comparison to regimes that have committed human rights violations including mass murder. On the contrary, it's vital we make comparisons and note similarities to trends that led those political movements astray so we can avoid falling into the same traps.

stupider...likeafox

06-24-2005, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
Now stop equating being held at an uncomfortable temperature to gassing and murdering millions and perhaps I will give you an adult response to an adult claim.

One last time, just because you are being adult:

No-one is equating those two things. They are claiming that the average American, if they read that FBI report without knowing it was talking about abuse by Americans, would associate such tactics with other countries, in particular despotic regimes such as those listed.

Do you understand? I request an adult response.

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Northgate
Do we live in a free society or not?

Do we have the right to protest or not? Yes, so does Rove.

CosmoNut

06-24-2005, 10:14 AM

I'm obviously all for the freedom of speech and would NEVER want anyone's rights to be abridged, but I have a major problem with the constant dissention of the vocal opposers to the war:

In this much smaller world we live in with satellites and fiber optics everywhere, anything that any public official says can easily be broadcast everywhere in the world.

When a senator, celebrity, etc. denounces the war and insults the United States' president, that's tantamount to that person walking over to another guest at a party, pointing back to those he came with, and saying, "look at how stupid my brother is. He's an idiot and doesn't know what he's doing. He's destroying our family and making us look bad in your eyes. I'm ashamed and embarassed by him."

It's selling our country down the river!

Here's the dialogue that needs to happen: How do we balance our constitutional right to freedom of speech while doing what we can to NOT sell our own country down the river in the world's eyes.

And I don't want to hear the whole, "we sold ourselves down the river well enough on our own by having gone to war." That contributes nothing to the conversation.

giant

06-24-2005, 10:18 AM

The difference between people like you and people like me is that we aren't going to give up our rights, lie and pretend everything is hunky dory when it's not, particularly since doing so stands in the way of positive change and encourages corruption of the high standards that make this country great.

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
One last time, just because you are being adult:

No-one is equating those two things. They are claiming that the average American, if they read that FBI report without knowing it was talking about abuse by Americans, would associate such tactics with other countries, in particular despotic regimes such as those listed.

Do you understand? I request an adult response. I'm an average american, and I can see the clear differences. I will point some out to you.

The people that died at the hands of the Nazis were systematically starved and used as disposable labor, beaten relentlessly, kept in the worst possible environments, packed in trains like cattle, and marched into giant gas chambers, and loaded into mass ovens for disposal. None or virtually none took up arms against their captors. The monsters of germany had no regard for for their value as humans and made no effort to treat them humanly, the myriad of individuals they massacred.

The people that are being held by the US are being provided everything they need to be comfortable, including lawyers, which are not a requirement since these are not uniformed soldiers fighting for a particular country. In addition, they know their fate is not going to be an oven.

trumptman

06-24-2005, 10:21 AM

giant

06-24-2005, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by NaplesX
I'm an average american,
You're are not average, you are an extremist. Average americans don't spend their time posting on the internet that bill clinton is a serial killer. The average american considers people who believe things like that and post it on the internet to be crackpots and universally portray them in popular media as disgusting, dangerous recluses.

trumptman

06-24-2005, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
You've got to be kidding me!

Think beyond numbers friend. If Los Angeles is within California, it doesn't mean that California is within Los Angeles.

Nick

trumptman

06-24-2005, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by giant
So you're delusional and haven't understood a thing here.

Acts like killing and ass raping prisoners are acts I've always associated with the brutal regimes of history and today, not with the US. I find it distressing that there are so many of you who feel otherwise.

Also, we don't have to wait until there's been mass murder to make any sort of comparison to regimes that have committed human rights violations including mass murder. On the contrary, it's vital we make comparisons and note similarities to trends that led those political movements astray so we can avoid falling into the same traps.

We don't have to wait to declare guilt. What wonderful reasoning! We can simply declare guilt by what we view are similarities. You just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper don't you.

Again, I illustrated your thinking. We have uniforms. Those mass murderers had uniforms. They must be the same! We can clearly see the similarities and the we think there is a trend!

There is no similarity in any sort of trend between the U.S. and what happened in Nazi Germany, the Soviet gulags and with Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot. I've been nice and explained this to you. I should have just stuck with ignoring and dismissing you because your reasoning here doesn't really justify any sort of intellectual response.

Nick

trumptman

06-24-2005, 10:28 AM

trumptman

06-24-2005, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by giant
You're are not average, you are an extremist. Average americans don't spend their time posting on the internet that bill clinton is a serial killer. The average american considers people who believe things like that and post it on the internet to be crackpots and universally portray them in popular media as disgusting, dangerous recluses.

Come now. Perhaps he only saw trends in Clinton that he thought were similar to serial killers and wanted to stop us from letting him run astray.:no: :rolleyes:

Extreme indeed.

Nick

giant

06-24-2005, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
You are a lunatic. You have proof that we are killing prisoners at Gitmo? Please present it. Otherwise you should exactly why you should be treated as a discredited, silly, delusional child.
'Silly' and 'delusional' is your attempt to ignore the mountain of information on prisoner treatment by the US that has been the focus of the world for quite a long time now.

giant

06-24-2005, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
Come now. Perhaps he only saw trends in Clinton that he thought were similar to serial killers and wanted to stop us from letting him run astray.
Perhaps, in which case he would also be a nutball.

trumptman

06-24-2005, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by CosmoNut
I'm obviously all for the freedom of speech and would NEVER want anyone's rights to be abridged, but I have a major problem with the constant dissention of the vocal opposers to the war:

In this much smaller world we live in with satellites and fiber optics everywhere, anything that any public official says can easily be broadcast everywhere in the world.

When a senator, celebrity, etc. denounces the war and insults the United States' president, that's tantamount to that person walking over to another guest at a party, pointing back to those he came with, and saying, "look at how stupid my brother is. He's an idiot and doesn't know what he's doing. He's destroying our family and making us look bad in your eyes. I'm ashamed and embarassed by him."

It's selling our country down the river!

Here's the dialogue that needs to happen: How do we balance our constitutional right to freedom of speech while doing what we can to NOT sell our own country down the river in the world's eyes.

And I don't want to hear the whole, "we sold ourselves down the river well enough on our own by having gone to war." That contributes nothing to the conversation.

I think it is possible to dissent and criticize without selling your country down the river. It is even possible to do this in the age of the internet and satellite television. There is no need to even make this a free speech issue.

What it is not possible to do in this age of the internet and satellite television is sell your country down the river and claim you are only criticizing and dissenting.

That is what we have going on here.

You can go to your brother at the party pat him on the back and tell him you think he is a great guy. However when the video footage of you screwing his wife airs along with you verbalizing your true thoughts about him, the words said to his face ring hollow.

There are many people who are not just critics of the United States. They are not just dissenting about the war. They think we are monsters and that the world would be better off without us. They can claim something different to our face, but when their true motives are broadcast, they cannot hide from them.

That is exactly WHY we need the most free speech possible.

Nick

trumptman

06-24-2005, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by giant
'Silly' and 'delusional' is your attempt to ignore the mountain of information on prisoner treatment by the US that has been the focus of the world for quite a long time now.

No what I do not do is look at a mountain of information about discomfort related to temperature and call it mass murder. That is what you do but justify it by calling it a logical trend line. I call that trend line the fictionalized bullshit that it happens to be.

Nick

trumptman

06-24-2005, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by giant
Perhaps, in which case he would also be a nutball.

Takes one to know one. So I guess that is why you made the call on him.

Nick

giant

06-24-2005, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
There is no similarity in any sort of trend between the U.S. and what happened in Nazi Germany, the Soviet gulags and with Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot.
Of course there is. The political future of this country is shaped by those who've spent their entire lives studying political history and comparing trends in and actions of the US and historical regimes. That's what political scientists and policy makers do (and it's frightening that you don't understand that), including the policy makers in the current administration whose writings and interviews are nothing less than long streams of comparisons to historical regimes. We aren't talking about comparing uniforms, we are talking about comparing how political movements work and the problems in governments. If you can't understand how absolutely ridiculous your responses in this thread have been, there's no hope that you'll even understand those in government who represent your own political beliefs.

giant

06-24-2005, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
Takes one to know one. So I guess that is why you made the call on him.
aren't you in your 30's? this is just pathetic

BRussell

06-24-2005, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
You have proof that we are killing prisoners at Gitmo? I'm not sure what the numbers are at the Gitmo camp, but the US Military has acknowledged (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml) that 108 prisoners have died in US camps in the past few years. If you want comparisons to evil regimes, 114 American POWs (http://my.eiis.net/cmart/vietwarstats.html) died in N. Vietnamese camps. So I guess we're not as bad as the N. Vietnamese Communists. We're 6 better.

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 10:55 AM

The thing I love is that Rove only mentioned liberals and didn't name any names. The democrats that have been telling us for years they are not "liberals" rather moderates, are jumping up and down demanding an apology.

Simply pointing out what we all knew all along. They were liberals.

Classic.

trumptman

06-24-2005, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by giant
Of course there is. The political future of this country is shaped by those who've spent their entire lives studying political history and comparing trends in and actions of the US and historical regimes. That's what political scientists and policy makers do (and it's frightening that you don't understand that), including the policy makers in the current administration whose writings and interviews are nothing less than long streams of comparisons to historical regimes. We aren't talking about comparing uniforms, we are talking about comparing how political movements work and the problems in governments. If you can't understand how absolutely ridiculous your responses in this thread have been, there's no hope that you'll even understand those in government who represent your own political beliefs.

So basically now you want to continue to claim conspiracy, kill the messenger and then justify yourself with those actions.

It doesn't not matter what comparison you make, we are not in anyway comparable to the regimes that Durbin made claims about. If you can't see that, then you are the hopeless and ridiculous one. Based off your beliefs you should already be fleeing the country like Einstein did from Germany. You haven't because the comparisons are not valid. If Bush were creating a police state where millions were getting set to be arrested, imprisoned and then killed, you would likely be one of those targeted and thus would be smart to flee.

Instead you sit comfortable in your home knowing no such thing will occur because your own comparison is not valid.

Nick

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by BRussell
I'm not sure what the numbers are at the Gitmo camp, but the US Military has acknowledged (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml) that 108 prisoners have died in US camps in the past few years. If you want comparisons to evil regimes, 114 American POWs (http://my.eiis.net/cmart/vietwarstats.html) died in N. Vietnamese camps. So I guess we're not as bad as the N. Vietnamese Communists. We're 6 better. Those numbers include all camps and not specifically Gitmo. These numbers also include natural causes.

And forget the 3000 still MIA that most likely died at the hand of the NVA. Some being sighted in prisons there to this day.

trumptman

06-24-2005, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by BRussell
I'm not sure what the numbers are at the Gitmo camp, but the US Military has acknowledged (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml) that 108 prisoners have died in US camps in the past few years. If you want comparisons to evil regimes, 114 American POWs (http://my.eiis.net/cmart/vietwarstats.html) died in N. Vietnamese camps. So I guess we're not as bad as the N. Vietnamese Communists. We're 6 better.

I didn't know death and killing were the same now.

So someone kills millions. We hold thousand and some of them die do to, natural causes, violence among themselves , etc and that is the same?

The article mentions that each death is investigated and I am sure that if it were caused by actions of our own personnel we would prosecute them for those actions.

That is hardly the same as the trend giant suggests.

Nick

giant

06-24-2005, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
So basically now you want to continue to claim conspiracy, kill the messenger and then justify yourself with those actions.
:???:

you're really losing it.

Fellowship

06-24-2005, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by hardhead
First of all and most telling of all, the so-called liberal media as well as FOX (fair and balanced...) took Durbin's comments out of context.

Just to refresh the short term memory span some of you are unfortunately afflicted with, Durbin made the comparison after reading an FBI agent's report describing detainees at the Naval base in Guantanamo Bay as being chained to the floor without food or water in extreme temperatures.

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime - Pol Pot or others - that had no concern for human beings," Durbin said Tuesday.

As far as this specific incident goes, I'm pissed that Durbin appologized! He should have stuck to his guns. One can only imagine what sort of pressure was brought to bear on this man to make him appologize. Now THAT's truly pathetic.

Karl Rove, ah Karl Rove... Talk about a pathetic sack of rottenness... He IS despicable. A phony-ass chicken hawk of the worst sort. Hiding behind PATRIOTISM and the lives and honor of our military personel. This chump hasn't a clue of what honor is.

He (along with his White House pals...) and his pathetic ideology are what have put our troops lives, our lives and the lives of innocent Iraqis in danger. I'd bet all my worldy possesions that if you put this punk in a real life or death situation, he'd drop a fifty pound gold brick while crying for his momma... This holds true for most chicken-hawks.

What gives me the right to critizise Karl Rove? I KNOW what it's like to go up against folks trying to end your life in combat. I know what it's like to be wounded by friendly fire. I know what it's like to kill in the name of your country. Although at the time I had to do it to save my own skin.

For most of my life I was a fairly conservative Republican. After what I experienced in the so-called first Gulf War, I became a LIBERAL. Bush Sr. has blood on his hands from that war. Now his son (and his cronies...) have the blood of innocents on theirs.

OK ok, I'm starting to ramble... I get so frustrated speaking with, hearing or reading well-intentioned Republicans going on and on about how this administration is only doing what's best for the country. Guess what, no they are not. They are doing what is best for their own interest. That does not include the middle-class either. WAKE UP.

What a refreshing post.

You speak the truth and hopefully some of these die hards will eventually question their own evaluations in light of day to day truths as well as the events of recent history.

Fellowship

trumptman

06-24-2005, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by giant
:???:

you're really losing it.

You're right. Everyone here who reads this is going to see you talking about nonexistent executions that predict a future conspiratorial trend in United States policy that will lead us toward millions more being executed, know that you must personally work to correct and they will think that I am really losing it.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You've proven that my first response to this thread was indeed the most appropriate.

Nick

giant

06-24-2005, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by trumptman
So someone kills millions.
We aren't talking about millions. The discussion is about specific types of prisoner abuse and the fact that they have traditionally been what we think of as the acts of horrible regimes.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Those numbers include all camps and not specifically Gitmo. These numbers also include natural causes.
As are apparently the vietnam figures, making it an extremely valid comparison.
Originally posted by trumptman
nonexistent executions
what are you rambling about? are you completely oblivious to the fact that there have been prisoners killed by interrogators or are you just playing dumb to troll?

Moe_in_Texas

06-24-2005, 11:48 AM

Many here don't understand what it takes to win a war. Here is an interesting article by Bill OReilly, a man I suspect most here loath.

http://www.billoreilly.com/currentarticle

groverat

06-24-2005, 11:53 AM

Current MIA from Vietnam isn't anywhere close to 3000, it's closer to 600 still MIA. (http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2005/nr20050520-3241.html)

If we put an innocent person in prison with a murderer, then we are responsible when the murderer kills the innocent person. The murderer is responsible also, of course, but we made it happen so we share responsibility (it's not a zero-sum game).

The article mentions that each death is investigated and I am sure that if it were caused by actions of our own personnel we would prosecute them for those actions.

Tens of millions of people around the world and inside the US are sure that you are mistaken. And those tens of millions of people have history to back them up.

For instance: Who was punished for beating the guy to death at Abu Ghraib? (The one we have pictures of packed in ice.)

What about the soldier who shot the wounded insurgent on the street live on camera on CNN?

How about the one who executed a wounded insurgent in a mosque compound, also live on camera?

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by giant
We aren't talking about millions. The discussion is about specific types of prisoner abuse and the fact that they have traditionally been what we think of as the acts of horrible regimes. No we are talking about types of interrogation techniques, not abuse. Abuse (broad definition that liberals like to use) under US happens primarily (except for the odd soldier that crosses the line) during interrogation. When these prisoners are being held they are treated humanely. The aim of interrogations is to get info, not cause death.

The problem you and many here have is you are unwilling to separate interrogation from detainment. I say unwilling because I know you guys easily see the difference.

Every person in every war expects harsh interrogations. They are trained to resist it. Interrogation is part of taking up arms against any government including the US. AQ and the Taliban trained to resist coercive interrogations also. They knew what they were getting into.

Originally posted by giant
As are apparently the vietnam figures, making it an extremely valid comparison. No they are not, since Vietnam has yet to fully comply and let inspections take place to verify no-one is still being held.

Originally posted by giant
what are you rambling about? are you completely oblivious to the fact that there have been prisoners killed by interrogators or are you just playing dumb to troll? So what? Treatment during interrogations is different from treatment while being held captive. As you know.

trumptman

06-24-2005, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by groverat
Tens of millions of people around the world and inside the US are sure that you are mistaken. And those tens of millions of people have history to back them up.

Logically fallacy. Appeal to popularity does not make something right.

Nick

giant

06-24-2005, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
When these prisoners are being held they are treated humanely.
That's obviously not true. Even someone as defensive of torture as you knows that, at the very least, killing prisoners is not humane treatment. Personally, my definition of humane treatment also doesn't include things like ass raping or any of the other things that reasonable people consider abuse.
No they are not
I don't expect an extremist such as yourself to believe so.

giant

06-24-2005, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
No we are talking about types of interrogation techniques, not abuse.
Killing, ass raping, electrocuting, etc prisoners is abuse, period.

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by giant
That's obviously not true. Even someone as defensive of torture as you knows that, at the very least, killing prisoners is not humane treatment. Personally, my definition of humane treatment also doesn't include things like ass raping or any of the other things that reasonable people consider abuse. I wouldn't expect a despot supporting, terrorism apologist to say anything other than what you just did, either.

What this boils down to is liberals, like yourself, are so confused, that you don't know who the real enemy is. SH can count on support from a liberal, terrorists can count on support of the liberal, anyone standing up to the US can count on that support also.

Is it that you are confused or that you actually need the respect and friendship of AQ and the people fighting the US, SH and the detainees at Gitmo?

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by giant
Killing and ass raping prisoners is abuse, period. So I expect you to rise up in opposition to the UN, since they are known for this kind of thing?

Ass raping? Once again, some proof.

I agree this is deplorable behavior. So give me some proof.

giant

06-24-2005, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
Ass raping? Once again, some proof.
do a google search.

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by giant
do a google search. Nice dodge.

giant

06-24-2005, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
Nice dodge.
it's been front page news for a year now and there are photos, so the fact that you don't know about it demonstrates the cave of denial you've been living in

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 12:43 PM

"as far as I know there are three cases that match the description of "beaten to death while in US custody." One involves an Al Qaeda terrorist grabbed up by a SEAL team, and delivered in good health to a CIA interrogation team. The prisoner later died and the SEAL Team commander was given a court martial ... and acquitted of all charges. The trial had testimony of SEALs and other military personell that CIA interrogators sat on the prisoner's chest until he stopped breathing.

The other two involve prisoners at Bagram Airbase, one of whom was senior Al Qaeda, and got kicked to death by the guards. Another prisoner was kicked for "amusement" he may have been someone who was turned into the Americans. Both cases have ongoing investigations with charges due soon.

A number of prisoners have died in US custody, some by riots and beatings in prisons (not the level of say Pelican Bay in CA). Others by being shot in breakout attempts, riots, or when captured. Happens. Overall, the stuff reported is FAR less bad than what happens in Pelican Bay, San Quentin, Folsom, and other max prisons in CA." - a poster on a blog i ran across.

All cases are being investigated and perpetrators are being punished. This goes against the notion that it is military policy.

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by giant
it's been front page news for a year now and there are photos, so the fact that you don't know about it demonstrates the cave of denial you've been living in Really, anal rape has been on the front page? Which publications?

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/lawsuit/cases/lit-client-bios-030105.htm

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/031505Hassan/031505hassan.html

Hardly front page news, in my google search. So far I read a bunch of accusations, which are being investigated, by the way, that seem like what is outlined in the AQ handbook.

giant

06-24-2005, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
Really, anal rape has been on the front page? Which publications?
every news source. Your ignorance of this, one of the most high-profile and shocking types of abuse of prisoners in Iraq, is absolutely, positively mindblowing.

FormerLurker

06-24-2005, 01:13 PM

the "liberal" US media hasn't had it on the front page of ANYTHING for a while, but there are more than a few reports, from multiple sources:
NBC News later quoted U.S. military officials as saying that the unreleased photographs showed American soldiers “severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner, and ‘acting inappropriately with a dead body.’ The officials said there also was a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.”

see also "US soldiers 'seen raping woman' in new jail photos"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/09/wtort09.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/09/ixnewstop.html

America was braced last night for new allegations of torture in Iraq after military officials said that photographs apparently showing US soldiers beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death and having sex with a female PoW were about to be released.

The officials told the US television network NBC that other images showed soldiers "acting inappropriately with a dead body". A videotape, apparently made by US personnel, is said to show Iraqi guards raping young boys.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/07/15/hersh/
Hersh gave a speech last week to the ACLU making the charge that children were sodomized in front of women in the prison, and the Pentagon has tape of it. The speech was first reported in a New York Sun story last week, which was in turn posted on Jim Romenesko's media blog, and now EdCone.com and other blogs are linking to the video. We transcribed the critical section here (it starts at about 1:31:00 into the ACLU video.) At the start of the transcript here, you can see how Hersh was struggling over what he should say:

"Debating about it, ummm ... Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out."

According to Donald Rumsfeld, many more pictures and videotapes of the abuse at Abu Ghraib exist.
New photos and videos revealed by the Pentagon to lawmakers in a private viewing on the 12th of May showed attack dogs snarling at cowing prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other, the lawmakers revealed.

lots more, with links, at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

FormerLurker

06-24-2005, 01:28 PM

Oh, look, a former Marine Lt. Col. who obviously is a terrorist lover and apologist (just like anyone on these boards not goosestepping to the fascist beat is labeled!):

Former Marine Lt. Col. Bill Cowan in an interview with CBS said: "We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage."

Why Does He Hate America?

giant

06-24-2005, 01:38 PM

Cowan also just made a direct comparison between the prisoner abuse by saddam's regime and the abuse of those held by the US.

FormerLurker

06-24-2005, 01:48 PM

Senator Lindsey Graham (Republican, South Carolina) has been quoted as saying, "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here," after hearing testimony from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Why does this Republican Senator hate America?
Why does he support Terrorism?
Why does he Love Saddam?

BRussell

06-24-2005, 01:54 PM

Sen. John McCain, who knows a thing or two about prisons, said Guantanamo has an image problem because of the allegations of torture. Proving that references to the Nazis are not always out of place, he said, "Even Adolf Eichmann got a trial." Two Republicans on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Florida's Mel Martinez and Nebraska's Chuck Hagel) said the prison should be closed, and President Bush refused to rule out closure. link (http://www.dailyamerican.com/articles/2005/06/24/opinion/editorial01.txt)

Why do Republican Seantors McCain, Hagel, and Martinez hate American too?

Fellowship

06-24-2005, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by BRussell
link (http://www.dailyamerican.com/articles/2005/06/24/opinion/editorial01.txt)

Why do Republican Seantors McCain, Hagel, and Martinez hate American too?

Don't you know that with the Rove, Bush, Fox News "trinity" the new theme is to create an environment where any who question are "America Haters" and of course once you hate America that makes you a terrorist.

Funny that for those of us who actually care for our country we get lumped in a context of "supporting terrorists" and "hating America" when what we are doing is standing up for were once American values.

Fellows

FormerLurker

06-24-2005, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by trumptman
being held at an uncomfortable temperature why sure, that's all there is - an uncomfortable temperature.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

I would guess then that you would not at all mind going straight to hell (do not pass GO, do not collect $200), as there is nothing more there than an uncomfortable temperature.

:devil:

addabox

06-24-2005, 02:14 PM

I think the wingnut approach to changing the subject should be applied to all walks of life. That way, nothing can ever be criticized, and no institution or organization will be subject to scrutiny or reform, which will make it a much better world.

For instance, in the case of say, the Enron scandal, instead of supporting ways to reform corporate behavior the right could apply the Gitmo test, and start scouring the record for someone saying something like "Jeez, this is the worst abuse of the system I've ever seen, it's a madhouse in there".

Then you can spend all your time shrieking about how "madhouses" have certain qualities not shared by Enron, and how "worst ever" is just a totally outrageous exaggeration, and that the liberals who hate the free market will stop nothing to bring down our economy, and that, in fact, looking into Enron is likely to drive down the market, so talking about is quite literally to take food out of the mouths of babies.

Hooray! No reform, the whole conversation drowned out by pointless parsing and the usual frothing disdain for the slightest semblance of caring about anything but sticking to those goddamn liberals.

Or take evidence of child abuse in a day care center. Wait for a prosecutor to say something like "What we've seen evidence of at Sunnybrook Daycare is sickening. It was like some hellhole in a third world nation".

Uh-oh..... gotcha! Outrageous! Third world nations sell children into child prostitution, and there is no evidence that any such thing ever transpired at Sunnybrook! And if discipline sometimes was overly firm, well, it's permissiveness that made the world so fucked up. And, anyway, that prosecutor should resign for his over the top remarks.

Oh, and, uh...carry on Sunnybrook. We're sure you'll sort things out. The improtant thing is another liberal prosecturor is on the hot seat. Probably wants to give hugs to kids who throw tantrums. What's that? Bruises? Anal trauma? Burns? Pffft. Liberals hate discipline.

Or out of control cops. Or corrupt politicians. Or anything.

Of course, consistency isn't really the strong suit of the hollerin' right, so you know that as soon as any malfeasance that can be even roughly laid at the feet of "the left" rears its head, we can expect the Hitler comparisons to fly fast and thick, as always, with no shame.

Northgate

06-24-2005, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by addabox
I think the wingnut approach to changing the subject should be applied to all walks of life. That way, nothing can ever be criticized, and no institution or organization will be subject to scrutiny or reform, which will make it a much better world.

For instance, in the case of say, the Enron scandal, instead of supporting ways to reform corporate behavior the right could apply the Gitmo test, and start scouring the record for someone saying something like "Jeez, this is the worst abuse of the system I've ever seen, it's a madhouse in there".

Then you can spend all your time shrieking about how "madhouses" have certain qualities not shared by Enron, and how "worst ever" is just a totally outrageous exaggeration, and that the liberals who hate the free market will stop nothing to bring down our economy, and that, in fact, looking into Enron is likely to drive down the market, so talking about is quite literally to take food out of the mouths of babies.

Hooray! No reform, the whole conversation drowned out by pointless parsing and the usual frothing disdain for the slightest semblance of caring about anything but sticking to those goddamn liberals.

Or take evidence of child abuse in a day care center. Wait for a prosecutor to say something like "What we've seen evidence of at Sunnybrook Daycare is sickening. It was like some hellhole in a third world nation".

Uh-oh..... gotcha! Outrageous! Third world nations sell children into child prostitution, and there is no evidence that any such thing ever transpired at Sunnybrook! And if discipline sometimes was overly firm, well, it's permissiveness that made the world so fucked up. And, anyway, that prosecutor should resign for his over the top remarks.

Oh, and, uh...carry on Sunnybrook. We're sure you'll sort things out. The improtant thing is another liberal prosecturor is on the hot seat. Probably wants to give hugs to kids who throw tantrums. What's that? Bruises? Anal trauma? Burns? Pffft. Liberals hate discipline.

Or out of control cops. Or corrupt politicians. Or anything.

Of course, consistency isn't really the strong suit of the hollerin' right, so you know that as soon as any malfeasance that can be even roughly laid at the feet of "the left" rears its head, we can expect the Hitler comparisons to fly fast and thick, as always, with no shame.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Perfect! :lol: :lol: ;)

Northgate

06-24-2005, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
Yes, so does Rove.

And so does Durbin.

Northgate

06-24-2005, 03:18 PM

You know what I find absolutely ironic about the right's fervor at demonizing half its citizens?

They claim that any criticism of the goverment is providing aid to the enemy and subsequently weakens our stance on the world stage.

Really?

Since when have Republicans been worried about what other country's think of us? Since when have Republicans cared one iota what terrorists and terrorist supporting nations think? Memories only have to go as far back as the last presidential election to find a plethora of memorable quotes along the lines of "f*ck what the world thinks of us!"

And so what if some terrorist cell somewhere hears a story of an outraged liberal. HOW does this help him? Honestly? A terrorist's rage at America will never be affected by some political dissent. Never! He will strike with or without Americans participating in their constitutional rights.

So this notion that political dissent "sells American down the river"... BULLSHIT!

This is completely Republican designed propaganda. Period.

The fact that we liberals fight back at the assertion is proof that the neo-fascist propaganda machine is succeeding in its efforts to put large a large "L" on the shirt of every Democrat.

What's next. Box cars and chimneys?

MACchine

06-24-2005, 03:20 PM

Removed by audiopollution because:

1) The post was off-topic.
2) A thread on the subject already exists.
3) The post contained no original content.

A hat-trick. Amazing!

pfflam

06-24-2005, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
I wouldn't expect a despot supporting, terrorism apologist to say anything other than what you just did, either.
Statements like this make me realize that no matter how much we explain things to this guy he simply will NEVER listen . . . .

Never

addabox

06-24-2005, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by pfflam
Statements like this make me realize that no matter how much we explain things to this guy he simply will NEVER listen . . . .

Never

On the other hand, he's apparently created MAChine to provide cover for his, um, less coherent flank.

From now on, we can all say, "Well, Naples contention that liberals created AIDS is a might short on logic, but at least he doesn't randomly capitalize words and give every appearance of being in the throws of some kind of benzedrine fit."

Northgate

06-24-2005, 03:40 PM

The most serious crisis facing the administration is this: as the Downing Street "memos" continue to surface, as the Bolton nomination continues to be dragged down as Senate Democrats discover more and more questionable activites undertaken by Bolton on behalf of the White House, and as news reports on other fronts are finally being pieced together into a larger narrative, it is becoming more and more clear that not only was there an effort to "fix" intelligence in the runup to the Iraq War, but that the effort was far larger, more organized, and more vicious against dissenters than administration critics had even suspected. That is the driving force behind many of these new media stories. Rove and the White House need to crush these investigative efforts, and that's what these latest carefully organized attacks against Democrats, liberals, reporters, etc., have been geared towards doing.

It's not going to work. And it's time to get outraged.

Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/24/152323/050)

Northgate

06-24-2005, 03:47 PM

Redstate.org had the following statement to make about Rove's comments:

The remarkable thing about the excuse-making for Karl Rove is how intellectually dishonest so much of it is.

Yep, you read that right.

Why does Redstate.org hate America?

Northgate

06-24-2005, 04:40 PM

The Family of September 11 (http://www.familiesofseptember11.org/default.aspx) are pissed.

As families whose relatives were victims of the 9/11 terror attacks, we believe it is an outrage that any Democrat, any Republican, any conservative or any liberal, stakes a "high ground" position based upon the September 11th death and destruction. Doing so assumes that all those who died and their loved ones would agree. In truth, some would and some would not. By definition the conduct is divisive and, because it is intended to be self-serving and politicizes 9/11, it is offensive.

We are calling on Karl Rove to resist his temptations and stop trying to reap political gain in the tragic misfortune of others. His comments are not welcome.

Indeed.

BRussell

06-24-2005, 04:46 PM

Yeah, about those families. Think about how many liberals are in NY city. And think about how many New Yorkers were killed in 9/11. And then think about how Rove said liberals didn't want to prepare for war, and only wanted to offer understanding and therapy to the attackers.

NaplesX

06-24-2005, 04:58 PM

ATTENTION

I have to admit that it appears that rape did take place. I am not sure how I missed it. I was perhaps busy or whatever. I do remember allegations I don't remember that they were proven.

However, it does not change my position.The acts of a few do not define the whole military or even it's leadership.

There are murders and rapes all over in the US every day. Does that mean that US citizens are animals? No, it means that some are animals.

The same is true here. There will always be a small percentage of people that will act in such a manner. That does not make the military evil, just those assholes that broke the law. It is against the law for these soldiers to act this way, even while in Iraq. They are being prosecuted. I am not sure what the problem is, other than their disgraceful acts.

GWB nor his admin told any of these guys to rape or kill people in captivity. This is where you lefties lose the rest of the population. If you were screaming that these soldiers should be arrested and punished, anyone could agree with that. But you are saying that because some guy raped someone, and he just so happened to be in uniform, that you can then cry for the removal of the president and all US soldiers are just like Nazis.

I don't call that fair criticism. Of course being fair is not the goal here, is it. Like I said the only thing that liberals want is to undermine the president any way they can and they will use any weapon that presents itself, even if they are bashing their own country in the process.

To the world, you are attacking America. So you are harming yourself as much as you are republicans.

FormerLurker

06-24-2005, 05:07 PM

all US soldiers are just like Nazis. That's not what anyone here has said, so quit making shit up, please.

jimmac

06-24-2005, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
ATTENTION

I have to admit that it appears that rape did take place. I am not sure how I missed it. I was perhaps busy or whatever. I do remember allegations I don't remember that they were proven.

However, it does not change my position.The acts of a few do not define the whole military or even it's leadership.

There are murders and rapes all over in the US every day. Does that mean that US citizens are animals? No, it means that some are animals.

The same is true here. There will always be a small percentage of people that will act in such a manner. That does not make the military evil, just those assholes that broke the law. It is against the law for these soldiers to act this way, even while in Iraq. They are being prosecuted. I am not sure what the problem is, other than their disgraceful acts.

GWB nor his admin told any of these guys to rape or kill people in captivity. This is where you lefties lose the rest of the population. If you were screaming that these soldiers should be arrested and punished, anyone could agree with that. But you are saying that because some guy raped someone, and he just so happened to be in uniform, that you can then cry for the removal of the president and all US soldiers are just like Nazis.

I don't call that fair criticism. Of course being fair is not the goal here, is it. Like I said the only thing that liberals want is to undermine the president any way they can and they will use any weapon that presents itself, even if they are bashing their own country in the process.

To the world, you are attacking America. So you are harming yourself as much as you are republicans.

Yeah just like Nixon didn't tell them to do it in Vietnam.

Look the fact is we shouldn't be there in the first place! Secondly when you have a war time situation like this american troops should conduct themselves with honour. Not raping and pillaging like vikings! No this is not acceptable! This whole war has been a mismanaged debacle that shouldn't have happened.

FormerLurker

06-24-2005, 05:12 PM

I don't call that fair criticism. Of course being fair is not the goal here, is it. Like I said the only thing that liberals want is to undermine the president any way they can and they will use any weapon that presents itself, even if they are bashing their own country in the process.

To the world, you are attacking America. So you are harming yourself as much as you are republicans. That's just crap - but apparently you have actually deluded yourself into believing it.

No one here is attacking America. We are, however, attacking the actions of certain people which we find to be completely Un-American - whether they are troops or CIA agents torturing prisoners, or lawyers writing opinions defining what torture is allowable, or a Cmdr.-in-Cheif that sets the tone and refuses to punish those who allow these actions to continue.

We are defending this country and its ideals. You and your ilk are the ones attacking it.

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?

OBJRA10

06-24-2005, 05:24 PM

Last warning for personal attacks...

giant

06-24-2005, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
I have to admit that it appears that rape did take place. I am not sure how I missed it.
Isn't it obvious? You were flat-out told over and over about it but decided to argue instead of listen.
However, it does not change my position.
Of course not. Nothing could.
It is against the law for these soldiers to act this way, even while in Iraq. They are being prosecuted.
a) barely. as far as I know charges have only been brought up in one of the killings. b) the biggest problem, as pointed out time and time again, is that it's obviously an institutional problem since it's going on in iraq, afghanistan and gitmo, not to mention flying prisoners to other countries for torture.
GWB nor his admin told any of these guys to rape or kill people in captivity.
They actively provided the political, legal and physicial framework and environment for it to happen.
all US soldiers are just like Nazis.
a) if you can't participate in a discussion without resorting to strawmen than don't participate at all. b) for the 100000th time, you don't speak for the us military
Like I said the only thing that liberals want is to undermine the president any way they can and they will use any weapon that presents itself, even if they are bashing their own country in the process.
You obviously haven't listened to a single thing anyone has posted here.

pfflam

06-24-2005, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Northgate
The Family of September 11 (http://www.familiesofseptember11.org/default.aspx) are pissed.

Indeed. Why didn't those families feel used when bush was putting together the outrageous use of their tragedy for his re-election convention?!?!

It was almost as bad then as this is now.

pfflam

06-24-2005, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
ATTENTION

However, it does not change my position. Who do you think you're fooling?! You don't have a 'position', you merely hold on to a packaged reaction and then refuse all evidence or self-critical thought.

Northgate

06-24-2005, 06:40 PM

It's one thing to make belligerent pronouncements that contrast conservative toughness with liberal wimpiness. It's nasty and demeaning, but hardly something we haven't heard before.

The Al Jazeera passage, on the other hand, goes considerably further: it says specifically that the motive of Dick Durbin and others who criticize prisoner abuse is to put our troops in danger. He didn't say Durbin was merely careless, he said Durbin wanted to put our troops in greater danger. That's treason.

Washington Monthly (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/)

Northgate

06-24-2005, 06:59 PM

Sorry for all the posts, but this issue has me fired up right now...

Washington Monthly says it best:

This is patently more despicable than anything Dick Durbin ever said. But note the Republican response (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300235.html) to criticism from Democrats:

The White House defended Rove's remarks and accused Democrats of engaging in partisan attacks. Rove, said spokesman Scott McClellan, "was talking about the different philosophies and our different approaches when it comes to winning the war on terrorism."

In fact, far from backing down, McClellan said that Rove was just "telling it like it is when it comes to the different approaches for winning the war on terrorism (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050623-1.html)."

That's how the Republican party plays the game these days: accuse Democrats of being traitors and poltroons, and then, when they're called on it, turn up the volume even higher while simultaneously pretending that they're just talking about "different philosophies." This is McCarthy level thuggery, and one can only hope that Karl Rove meets the same bad end as the junior senator from Wisconsin.

addabox

06-24-2005, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by Northgate
Sorry for all the posts, but this issue has me fired up right now...

Washington Monthly says it best:

This is patently more despicable than anything Dick Durbin ever said. But note the Republican response (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300235.html) to criticism from Democrats:

In fact, far from backing down, McClellan said that Rove was just "telling it like it is when it comes to the different approaches for winning the war on terrorism (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050623-1.html)."

That's how the Republican party plays the game these days: accuse Democrats of being traitors and poltroons, and then, when they're called on it, turn up the volume even higher while simultaneously pretending that they're just talking about "different philosophies." This is McCarthy level thuggery, and one can only hope that Karl Rove meets the same bad end as the junior senator from Wisconsin.

Thanks for posting this, it does a good job of putting the issue in perspective.

jimmac

06-25-2005, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by FormerLurker
That's just crap - but apparently you have actually deluded yourself into believing it.

No one here is attacking America. We are, however, attacking the actions of certain people which we find to be completely Un-American - whether they are troops or CIA agents torturing prisoners, or lawyers writing opinions defining what torture is allowable, or a Cmdr.-in-Cheif that sets the tone and refuses to punish those who allow these actions to continue.

We are defending this country and its ideals. You and your ilk are the ones attacking it.

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?

This post points out exactly what's wrong with republican spin doctoring about almost any issue. If you don't go along with their agenda then you hate america. It's really like double speak. They're blaming liberals while they're the ones who are undermining our ideals in a very unamerican fashion. It's really time this stopped! FL you illustrated it nicely.

NaplesX

06-25-2005, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Northgate
It's one thing to make belligerent pronouncements that contrast conservative toughness with liberal wimpiness. It's nasty and demeaning, but hardly something we haven't heard before.

The Al Jazeera passage, on the other hand, goes considerably further: it says specifically that the motive of Dick Durbin and others who criticize prisoner abuse is to put our troops in danger. He didn't say Durbin was merely careless, he said Durbin wanted to put our troops in greater danger. That's treason.

Washington Monthly (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/) What exactly is treason. DD providing comfort to the enemy or Rove pointing it out?

BRussell

06-25-2005, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
What exactly is treason. DD providing comfort to the enemy or Rove pointing it out? That blog was saying that Rove was accusing Durbin of Treason.

NaplesX

06-25-2005, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by BRussell
That blog was saying that Rove was accusing Durbin of Treason. Ah yes, I see.

I guess, if we actually prosecuted for treason, an argument could be made for that - since Al Jazeera is indeed running his comments over and over.

FormerLurker

06-25-2005, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by NaplesX
Ah yes, I see.

I guess, if we actually prosecuted for treason, an argument could be made for that - since Al Jazeera is indeed running his comments over and over. No, they are NOT.

Sure, Rove said so, but it's just another LIE.

I know damn well who is actually committing treason here, and it ain't Durbin.

Leaving aside everything else which could and should be said, let me just point out that Senator Durbin's remarks do not currently appear anywhere on the main page or news page of al-Jazeera's Arabic language site. Its search engine produces only one hit for "Durbin" in 2005: a story from June 16 about his remarks and his refusal to apologize.

I haven't been paying enough attention to the broadcasts, or watching regularly enough, to know whether or not the story has been reported more heavily than this on the air (though I haven't heard anything about it this morning since I started paying attention). But I can say with some degree of confidence that Condi Rice's remarks in Egypt about reform has received far more attention on al-Jazeera than has Durbin's remarks about Guantanamo.

FormerLurker

06-25-2005, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by jimmac
This post points out exactly what's wrong with republican spin doctoring about almost any issue. If you don't go along with their agenda then you hate america. It's really like double speak. They're blaming liberals while they're the ones who are undermining our ideals in a very unamerican fashion. It's really time this stopped! FL you illustrated it nicely. Thanks.

I expect Nappy to fully ignore it.

We've had it. We've had it with the attacks on our patriotism and the charge that we don't "support the troops" because we are, as a rule, reluctant about sending them off to be killed and wounded for dubious reasons. We've had it with being called unpatriotic by chickenhawks who would never dream of encouraging their own kids to sign up for the military or signing up themselves, but are all too happy to send other people's kids off to die.

We've had it with being told that if you think torture is a betrayal of American values, you don't support the troops. We've had it with being told that unless you think the unadulterated clusterfuck that is Iraq is really just a land of butterflies and puppy dogs, then you don't support the troops who are there fighting and dying every day. We've had it with being told that if you use soldiers as props for your photo-ops when your approval ratings dip then you support the troops, but if you mourn those soldiers' deaths then you don't.

We've had it with being told that if you think America is supposed to stand for something more meaningful than just kicking ass, you don't really love your country. We've had it with having every policy criticism we make responded to with an attack on our motives. We have goddamn had it.

But we've also learned that just protesting these vicious, cowardly attacks doesn't work. So here's what we're going to do.

We are delivering the Grand Old Party and its supporters an ultimatum. Henceforth, when you accuse us of hating the military or hating our troops or hating America, we will not bow down and beg for forgiveness. We will stand up and hit back.

From this point forward, until you cease and desist this kind of attack, Democrats will start acting like Republicans. In every debate about national security, we will accuse Republicans in general and individual Republicans of hating our troops, hating America, and secretly sympathizing with terrorists. We won't imply it, we'll say it.

For instance: to this day, there are still American service members driving around Iraq without sufficient armor on their vehicles. As a result of the negligence of the Bush White House, the Pentagon, and the Republican Congress on this issue, dozens, maybe hundreds of American soldiers have died. So Democrats will now start asking, why do Republicans hate our troops so much that they'll let them die this way? Why can't Republicans support our troops?

Why do Republicans hate America so much they'll let us join the list of countries that torture people under their control? Only someone who hates America could do that.

Why does this administration keep giving Al Qaeda new recruiting tools? Are they pro-terrorist?

Why do this administration's supporters keep advocating policies that make America hated around the world? Do they hate America so much they want everyone else to hate it, too?

Why haven't the administration's supporters been screaming bloody murder about the fact that Porter Goss says he knows where Osama bin Laden is, but he hasn't gone to get him? Why don't they want bin Laden captured? Are they hoping he'll organize another attack on America? Thanks to The Gadflyer for this one.