13 CIA agents arrested in Italy . . . for kidnapping.

[pfflam]

I guess this might seem a little un-American of me . . . . but I kind of feel that it is an issue that might be worth commenting on:

Here's the story, it appears that 13 men have been arrested in Italy for nabbing an Imam off of a street then shipping him off to Egypt

guess what happened then . . .

In Egypt he was tortured with electricity.


Now I don't know about you . . . . the guy may have been a serious 'Baddy' . . . and I guess that Laws in Italy might have been a little lenient -so the thinking probably will go by the apologists- and so, naturally, we simply need to go right over the Laws of other countries . . . this is America after all . . .

er . . . I mean . . . its Italy

ANyway . . . the more that I think about this, the more it seems to be an incredibly idiotic and dangerous precedent.

Part of me thinks that it is too bad they were caught . . . but then I double think and realize that I am an American and I should demand that my country act like the pinnacle of civilization that it imagines itself to be and not some thug with armies of secret thugs that abduct 'suspects' from streets at night and then dissapears them and ships them to camps where they will be tortured . . .

I don't know if I should be embarassed for the ineptitude of the CIA or scared shitless for the way we seem to be acting like seriously lawless state . . . abviously: both!

We have all seen too many Hollywood movies where this kind of thing is portrayed as happening all the time . . . in reality, it happens, or should I say that it used to happen when done by corrupt and Totalitarian states wanted to 'dissapear' someone, or 'Liquidate' them . . .

'America' should once again strive to act like it deserves that name: a name that people used to look to as an inspiration . . . hell, Paul Simon's song used to mean something . . . with this kind of activity and all the other misdeeds being heeped on our floor it seems to have been another country . . . . what is going on?!

get rid of this bunch of crooks and thugs!!!

Oh yeah . . . . just a side note: take a look at how much of a working expence these guys have to work with? and you wonder where that 9Billion$ from the Iraqi rebuidling fund went to?!

anyway the article:Italy judge orders arrest of 13 CIA agents

June 24, 2005 _|_ Rome -- An Italian judge ordered the arrests of 13 people in the purported CIA abduction of an imam, who then was sent to Egypt, the Milan prosecutor's office said Friday. An Italian official said earlier the 13 were CIA officers involved in U.S. anti-terrorism efforts.

The 13 are suspected of seizing Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr, known as Abu Omar, on the streets of Milan on Feb. 17, 2003, and sending him to Egypt, where he reportedly was tortured, Milan prosecutor Manlio Claudio Minale said in a statements

An Italian newspaper said all 13 were American agents.

The U.S. Embassy in Rome and the CIA in Washington declined to comment.

The prosecutor's statement did not name any of the suspects, give their nationalities or mention the CIA by name, but an Italian official familiar with the investigation confirmed newspaper reports Friday that the suspects were working for the CIA. The official requested anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information.

Minale said the suspects remained at large, and Italian authorities would ask the United States and Egypt for assistance in the case.

Prosecutors believe the officers seized Omar as part of the CIA's "extraordinary rendition" program, in which terror suspects are transferred to third countries without court approval, according to reports Friday in newspapers Corriere della Sera and Il Giorno.

The statement said Omar was attacked by two people while walking from home to a local mosque and hustled into a white van. He was taken to Aviano, a joint U.S.-Italian base north of Venice; another American air base in Ramstein, Germany; and then Cairo.

Investigators confirmed the abduction through an eyewitness account and other, unidentified witnesses, the statement said.

The statement said Omar was abused by interrogators in Egypt, according to phone calls made by Omar from Egypt to his wife and another unnamed Egyptian citizen in April-May, 2004.

Italian papers have reported that Omar, 42, said in the calls he was tortured with electric shocks.

On Friday, Corriere della Sera cited another Milan-based imam as telling Italian authorities that Omar had been tortured in Egypt after refusing to work in Italy as an informer.

According to the testimony, Omar was hung upside down and subjected to extreme temperatures and loud noise that damaged his hearing, Corriere reported.

Minale said the judge rejected a request for arrest warrants for six more suspects believed to have helped prepare the operation.

Judge Chiara Nobile ordered the arrests after investigators traced the 13 through check-in details at Milan hotels and their use of Italian cell phones during the operation, the reports in Corriere and Il Giorno said.

Il Giorno said the 13 were American agents, and three of them were women.


Minale said a judge also issued a separate arrest warrant for Omar on terrorist charges. In that warrant, Judge Guido Salvini claimed the seizure of Omar represented a violation of Italian sovereignty, according to Italian news agency Apcom.

Omar was believed to have fought alongside jihadists in Afghanistan and Bosnia, and prosecutors were seeking evidence against him before his disappearance, according to a report in La Repubblica newspaper last year, which cited intelligence officials.

The prosecutor's office said Omar was released by the Egyptians after his interrogation but later was arrested again.

Corriere said Italian police picked up details, including cover names, photos, credit card details, and U.S. addresses that the 13 had given to a number of five-star hotels in Milan around the time of Omar's alleged abduction.

It said investigators also found the prepaid highway passes the 13 used for the journey from Milan to the air base.

The report said investigations showed the 13 ran up $144,984 in hotel bills in Milan, and two couples took holidays in northern Italy after delivering Omar at the Aviano air base.

[pfflam]

Oh yeah: FROM HERE (to read it, go through FLASH AD . . . click just below add to go right to source) (http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2005/06/24/cia_arrests/index.html)

[shetline]

Why do you hate America? ;)

[Aurora]

Before this administration creates WW3 we the Great Babylon (U.S.A.) will have everyone hating us. Im convinced that in the Bible the Great Babylon must have been referring to the U.S. No one else could fit the description. Birth pangs.

[Aquatic]

Wow this will be interesting to watch. I love how Bushies are vehemently against the International Court, the UN, and any other international jurisdiction, and they don't want people "mucking about" with our troops. Yet we can just go in to any damn country, even in Europe, and do whatever we want with anyone. An interesting legal issue at least. And a scary precedent. Porter Goss must be getting severe heartburn these days. This right after that fucking ludicrous Time interview.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Aquatic
Wow this will be interesting to watch. I love how Bushies are vehemently against the International Court, the UN, and any other international jurisdiction, and they don't want people "mucking about" with our troops. Yet we can just go in to any damn country, even in Europe, and do whatever we want with anyone. An interesting legal issue at least. And a scary precedent. Porter Goss must be getting severe heartburn these days. This right after that fucking ludicrous Time interview.

It is also an interesting 'philosophical' issue for want of a better word.

If the US constantly berates countries for being dictatorships and 'barbaric' then what does that make the US for utilising the methods of those barbarians AND getting the same barbarians to do it for them - and then lying to the public about it.

This contradiction - ie hypocrisy/duplicity - is particularly evident in the case of Syria where the US is routinely shipping people for torture by the regime whilst lying to the public that they oppose the Syrian regime on these very grounds.

[segovius]

And also of course there is the issue of how the US 'respects' its purported allies...

[Moe_in_Texas]

Nothing will come of this. When all is said and done it will boil down to a few anti-American lies. Wait and see.

[Aurora]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Nothing will come of this. When all is said and done it will boil down to a few anti-American lies. Wait and see. As everything coming out of the whitehouse these days it will be spun. As an American iam being embarrassed almost daily now with this administrations way of doing business. Its 2 faced as heck.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Nothing will come of this. When all is said and done it will boil down to a few anti-American lies. Wait and see.

Yawn. :rolleyes:

[FormerLurker]

Originally posted by segovius
Yawn. :rolleyes: It's almost like someone's entire worldview is shaped by the creed "muh daddy sez them librels and faggots is eevil"

[pfflam]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Nothing will come of this. When all is said and done it will boil down to a few anti-American lies. Wait and see. In a way, I hope you are right.

At least by saying what you just said you are acknoledging that it is something that should not be happening.

[segovius]

Originally posted by pfflam
In a way, I hope you are right.

At least by saying what you just said you are acknoledging that it is something that should not be happening.

I think maybe he meant more something that is not happening but whatever...

[Gilsch]

Originally posted by segovius
If the US constantly berates countries for being dictatorships and 'barbaric' then what does that make the US for utilising the methods of those barbarians AND getting the same barbarians to do it for them - and then lying to the public about it.We're at War™ you pussy.;)

[pfflam]

Originally posted by segovius
I think maybe he meant more something that is not happening but whatever... His statement does seem t attribute some nastiness to what is claimed . . . even though he would pretend to not believe that things like this are going on

In other words he admits that if it was happening it shouldn't be . . . that is a step forward for one of your basic support-lying-administration-at-all-costs kind of person

[pfflam]

Now perhaps this too is the 'liberal' media with its reflexive hatred of all that is good and true . . . I mean with anti-Americanism . . . but it seems now that other countries too are wondering about its citizens . . . . and questioning about henchmen stealing peole in the night to fly them out:

STORY ABOUT AGENTS + Other countries (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1514909,00.html)
Which states:Other nations have also begun to oppose Washington's forcible removal of terror suspects. Canada is holding hearings into the deportation of a Canadian to Syria for questioning about alleged ties to al-Qaeda. German prosecutors are conducting a criminal investigation into the suspected kidnapping of a German man who was flown to Afghanistan. In Stockholm, a parliamentary investigator has already concluded that CIA agents violated Swedish law by subjecting two Egyptian nationals to 'degrading and inhuman treatment' during a rendition in 2001.

Why do they hate America?

. . . . I mean, the misguided leaders that seem to have come into power in our otherwise wonderful country?

[Aurora]

Originally posted by FormerLurker
It's almost like someone's entire worldview is shaped by the creed "muh daddy sez them librels and faggots is eevil" No but if you are a brain washed Bible thumper or a brain washed Koran thumper since childhood and there in lies the problem. I was raised a ............ fill in the blank.

! MORONS clinging onto books written thousands of years ago by folks who thought the Earth was the center of the universe. But wanting to Force their archaic view on all.

[Moe_in_Texas]

If it's true then it is wrong. Hope that clears things up.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
If it's true then it is wrong. Hope that clears things up.

Problem is that it happening as a matter of policy on a weekly basis. We've had multiple threads about it here over the last year.

[Moe_in_Texas]

Originally posted by segovius
Problem is that it happening as a matter of policy on a weekly basis. We've had multiple threads about it here over the last year.

How many of those threads were verified as true?

[segovius]

Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
How many of those threads were verified as true?

NOne - because it is claimed to be a secret operation.

It's very simple though - many people now claim to be victims of this rendition process, let's hear their evidence and check out whether it's true or not in a court of law.

Of course this only applies if you think it's actually worth investigating, whether it would matter if true.

[pfflam]

Yesterday in the times there was an article which came to this concludion from people in related legal fields: "nothing will come of it because the people involved are no longer in Italy and the US will simply refuse to allow any penalties against its agents"

Translate that and you get this: " the US finds itself above any Laws in any other countries"


THE ARTICLE (need to register) (http://nytimes.com/2005/06/27/politics/27milan.html?hp&ex=1119931200&en=2a1497d901e6deea&ei=5094&partner=homepage)

The13 Americans are accused of the crime of kidnapping, which carries serious penalties in both Italy and the United States.
[ . . . ]
"If the apprehension and removal, to use those relatively neutral terms, of this individual, were done without the knowledge and authorization of at least some part of the Italian government," said Douglass W. Cassel Jr., who teaches international law at Northwestern University, "then it's a clear violation of international law."

[steve666]

All the Western countries should get together and ship all the scumbags that Egypt warned us about back to Egypt.
Let them do what they want with them.

[New]

Originally posted by steve666
All the Western countries should get together and ship all the scumbags that Egypt warned us about back to Egypt.
Let them do what they want with them.

If you could be kind enough to climb into this cardboard box, I'll write the address, and buy the stamps...

[segovius]

Originally posted by New
If you could be kind enough to climb into this cardboard box, I'll write the address, and buy the stamps...

Good one :lol:

[steve666]

Originally posted by segovius
Good one :lol:

Actually, no it wasn't because it didn't make sense.
I said we should ship back all the scumbags 'Egypt warned us about'.
So, the attempt at a clever retort at my expense came across as desperate. Not that I would expect anything less from the likes of you two.

[Gene Clean]

Go grab your AK-47 now redie.

[pfflam]

Now it seems for certain that the Italian government had not been informed before the kidnapping . . .. even Berlusconi is pissed:

Article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1518888,00.html)

taly's relations with the US took a further blow yesterday when Silvio Berlusconi's conservative government said it was summoning the American ambassador in Rome to explain the disappearance of a radical Muslim cleric, who was snatched from a Milan street two years ago.

Links between the traditionally close allies had already been strained by the shooting in March of an Italian intelligence officer by American troops in Iraq.

[ . . . ]
Carlo Giovanardi, Mr Berlusconi's minister for relations with parliament, categorically denied that the government had been told in advance by Washington of a plan to seize Mr Nasr.

In statements to both houses of the Italian legislature, he said the reported operation was "never brought to the attention of the government of the republic or national institutions", a term that appeared to include Italy's intelligence agencies.

Mr Giovanardi added that this meant it was "not even possible" that Italy had given permission for an operation.

The minister said a report from the US that claimed that the CIA had briefed and sought approval from Italian intelligence was "false and without any foundation".

[steve666]

Oh boo-hoo, a radical Muslim POS was sent back where he came from.
Honestly, I dont see why Italy would complain about having shit removed from its streets without having to pay a dime.

Italy, if you would like to come here and remove all radical Muslim vermin from the US we are more than glad to have you do it.

[pfflam]

Originally posted by steve666
Oh boo-hoo, a radical Muslim POS was sent back where he came from.
Honestly, I dont see why Italy would complain about having shit removed from its streets without having to pay a dime.

Italy, if you would like to come here and remove all radical Muslim vermin from the US we are more than glad to have you do it. And if they accidentally removed you or your wife without any due process, without any legality?

I agree that if he is AQ then he should be in jail or deported, but our government shouldn't simply decide to enter into another country and decide that it doesn't need to comply with their laws . . . . just as we wold demand that any country do as much in within sovereign US borders.

besides, if another country were officially doing such activity here on our soil, I really doubt you would feel the same way.

[FormerLurker]

Originally posted by steve666
Honestly, I dont see why Italy would complain about having shit removed from its streets without having to pay a dime.
Yes, it was very convenient, bypassing any financial cost to Italy, as well as bypassing due process within its sovereign borders.

I'm thinking that some of those Italians having a problem with this might still remember Mussolini.

Not sure why anyone would have a problem with that.

He *DID* make the trains run on time, after all, right?

[addabox]

Originally posted by steve666
Oh boo-hoo, a radical Muslim POS was sent back where he came from.
Honestly, I dont see why Italy would complain about having shit removed from its streets without having to pay a dime.

Italy, if you would like to come here and remove all radical Muslim vermin from the US we are more than glad to have you do it.

Absolutely.

Meanwhile, back in the US, we know that Negroes commit all the crimes, so if the police need to go into a black neighborhood and just grab up some scumbags, that would certainly save time and money and wear and tear on the court system.

Can I get a big amen, Steve?

[steve666]

Originally posted by pfflam
And if they accidentally removed you or your wife without any due process, without any legality?

I agree that if he is AQ then he should be in jail or deported, but our government shouldn't simply decide to enter into another country and decide that it doesn't need to comply with their laws . . . . just as we wold demand that any country do as much in within sovereign US borders.

besides, if another country were officially doing such activity here on our soil, I really doubt you would feel the same way.

Yeh, OK, I can see your point.
But, was this creep an Italian citizen?

[steve666]

Originally posted by addabox
Absolutely.

Meanwhile, back in the US, we know that Negroes commit all the crimes, so if the police need to go into a black neighborhood and just grab up some scumbags, that would certainly save time and money and wear and tear on the court system.

Can I get a big amen, Steve?

Not the same thing.
Maybe I missed the info, but was this radical scumbag an Italian citizen?

[addabox]

Originally posted by steve666
Not the same thing.
Maybe I missed the info, but was this radical scumbag an Italian citizen?

Sorry. The police should be free to round up evil scumbag black people.

That better?

[steve666]

Originally posted by addabox
Sorry. The police should be free to round up evil scumbag black people.

That better?

The police round up criminal suspects. Whats your point?
So, was this guy a citizen or not?

[Gene Clean]

He was in the jurisdiction of Italy, so it doesn't matter wether he was a citizen or not. It's not about citizenship, or nationality, it's about jurisdiction and international law.

[Harald]

Tell me, Steve, should the Iranians have the right to pick up criminals on American streets and kidnap them out of the country using diplomatic privelige?

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
He was in the jurisdiction of Italy, so it doesn't matter wether he was a citizen or not. It's not about citizenship, or nationality, it's about jurisdiction and international law.

I agree that its against international law, i just find it funny that people give a rats ass about a radical Muslim POS.
If we did that to an Italian citizen that would be a whole other ballgame.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Harald
Tell me, Steve, should the Iranians have the right to pick up criminals on American streets and kidnap them out of the country using diplomatic privelige?

Tell you what, the Iranians can come here and take MS-13, the Bloods, the Crips, and every other gang , kidnap all of them and do what they want with them. More power to 'em.

[segovius]

Originally posted by steve666
Tell you what, the Iranians can come here and take MS-13, the Bloods, the Crips, and every other gang , kidnap all of them and do what they want with them. More power to 'em.

Don't forget the Mexicans...oh and the blacks. They can go too.

[steve666]

Originally posted by segovius
Don't forget the Mexicans...oh and the blacks. They can go too.

If they are criminals and gang bangers, get them the fuck out of here. I'll send some over to you so you can play backgammon with them before they slit your throat.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by steve666
If they are criminals and gang bangers, get them the fuck out of here. I'll send some over to you so you can play backgammon with them before they slit your throat.
It would be so funny if the Iranians took some of your family members by accident when they were going after these criminals and stuck them in a secure facility which they claimed was outside international law where they humiliated them and beat them and wouldn't even put them on trial. That would be really funny. Hey, your brother or your dad!

:) Heh.

[segovius]

While we're waiting for the Mods to swing ponderously into action, antennae pulsating with suspicion in the quest for guidelines-breakers, let's get back on-topic. This is getting very, very interesting.

Firstly it seems that the Imam who was kidnapped had formerly been a CIA informant (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBI2E4BOAE.html) and that the kidnapping may - according to the Italian investigators - have been an attempt to get him back on the team.

But it gets better.

The Italians in a separate investigation have uncovered a secret fascist network (http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/diplomatic/foreign.htm) within the police that has links to P2, the Freemasons and neo-Nazi fringe groups.

Genoa police have arrested the two leaders of a neo-Fascist unofficial intelligence and "anti-terrorism" police network in Italy and have conducted searches of homes throughout the country in a major crackdown on a group that recruited police and intelligence agents to their cause. The two neo-Fascist leaders -- Gaetano Saya and Riccardo Sindoca -- who reportedly have close ties to both the P-2 Masonic lodge and a secret Cold War network known as Gladio, were arrested. Some 25 members of the regular state police, the Carabinieri, the Frontier police, and the Prison police were placed under official investigation. Tens of searches, including two houses in Genoa, were conducted by police in nine Italian regions: Liguria, Piedmont, Lombardy, Emilia Romagna, Tuscany, Lazio, Molise, Sicily and Sardinia. The investigation may soon extend to members of the Italian intelligence service SISMI.

And guess what ?

It also has links to the CIA, the Bush cabal and the Likud party.

In 2004, Saya and Sindoca established the Department of Strategic Anti-Terrorism Studies, which reportedly had links to both the Bush administration and Ariel Sharon's Likud government in Israel.

Daily Kos (http://dailykos.com/story/2005/7/1/134912/3377) also covers the story:

Gaetano Saya and Riccardo Sindoca are founders of a political organization called Destra Nazionale - Nuovo Msi [The National Right - Italian Socialist Movement] and claim to be ex-members of Gladio.

This is a right-wing terrorist outfit funded by the CIA and thought to be responsible for 1980 Bologna Railway Station bombing which killed 87 and wounded 177, including several US students on holiday

Seems right-wing terrorists are ok - maybe we need to shove an 'L' for lefty in that WOT.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
It would be so funny if the Iranians took some of your family members by accident when they were going after these criminals and stuck them in a secure facility which they claimed was outside international law where they humiliated them and beat them and wouldn't even put them on trial. That would be really funny. Hey, your brother or your dad!

:) Heh.

Taking the wrong guy theres no excuse for. That didnt happen though.
Actually the whole episode is wierd. I would find it hard to believe that the CIA just came in and took someone without anyone in the Italian Gomvnt knowing about it.

[steve666]

Originally posted by segovius
While we're waiting for the Mods to swing ponderously into action, antennae pulsating with suspicion in the quest for guidelines-breakers, let's get back on-topic. This is getting very, very interesting.

Firstly it seems that the Imam who was kidnapped had formerly been a CIA informant (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBI2E4BOAE.html) and that the kidnapping may - according to the Italian investigators - have been an attempt to get him back on the team.

But it gets better.

The Italians in a separate investigation have uncovered a secret fascist network (http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/diplomatic/foreign.htm) within the police that has links to P2, the Freemasons and neo-Nazi fringe groups.



And guess what ?

It also has links to the CIA, the Bush cabal and the Likud party.



Daily Kos (http://dailykos.com/story/2005/7/1/134912/3377) also covers the story:



Seems right-wing terrorists are ok - maybe we need to shove an 'L' for lefty in that WOT.

Dude, you need a new source of information. Thats just ridiculous.

[segovius]

Originally posted by steve666
Dude, you need a new source of information. Thats just ridiculous.

BBC reporting it now too...... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4640247.stm)

[Towel]

Crazy. So are these the same guys who are responsible for the alleged antics of Italian law enforcement at the Genoa protests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27th_G8_summit) a few years back? Planting evidence, abusing prisoners, shooting and killing a protestor, etc.

[steve666]

Originally posted by segovius
BBC reporting it now too...... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4640247.stm)

Looks like the Italian version of the CIA is using local Police Forces to help in the fight against terror. Interesting.
I dont see any link to Israel or Likud mentioned.

[ThinkingDifferent]

Originally posted by segovius
This is a right-wing terrorist outfit funded by the CIA and thought to be responsible for 1980 Bologna Railway Station bombing which killed 87 and wounded 177, including several US students on holiday [/B]

It's amazing how many terrorist organizations the CIA has funded. Maybe we are fighting the wrong terrorists.

[segovius]

Originally posted by steve666
Looks like the Italian version of the CIA is using local Police Forces to help in the fight against terror. Interesting.
I dont see any link to Israel or Likud mentioned.

I'm sure it does......to you.

To the Italian authorities it looks like a fascist extreme right-wing illegal group has infiltrated their police force and has been manufacturing terrorist activity. With money from the Intel services of other countries....hmm, wonder who that could be ?

The charges: So far there have been 20 separate investigations. The crime in question is criminal conspiracy using money from domestic and foreign agencies.

The unconfirmed aim of the organization, explains Genoa Chief Public Prosecutor Giuseppe Lalla, was to credential DSSA and to run a network which would obtain financing from foreign nations such as the United States and Israel or organizations such as NATO.

And again in case you missed it or are still pondering the implications (heh) this group was run by the following individuals:

Gaetano Saya and Riccardo Sindoca are founders of a political organization called Destra Nazionale - Nuovo Msi [The National Right - Italian Socialist Movement] and claim to be ex-members of Gladio. This is a right-wing terrorist outfit once funded by the CIA and thought to be responsible for 1980 Bologna Railway Station bombing which killed 87 and wounded 177, including several US students on holiday].

[PBG4 Dude]

Regarding the original post, it seems this whole Italian investigation was prompted by a 60 Minutes (that CBS news show) report about the CIA using US military bases and privately contracted airplanes to kidnap and move 'terrorists' to countries that allow more coercive methods to retrieve information compared to the countries these people are taken from.

[steve666]

Looks like we're fighting fire with fire.
It is surely difficult to combat terrorists who don't recognize any rules of law in waging their battle.
Maybe we our wising up and doing whatever is necessary to combat the terrorists.

[segovius]

Originally posted by steve666
Looks like we're fighting fire with fire.
It is surely difficult to combat terrorists who don't recognize any rules of law in waging their battle.
Maybe we our wising up and doing whatever is necessary to combat the terrorists.

By becoming them. Right.

Oh wait - the US has been backing terrorists for decades - maybe it's them that are wising up and becoming like you.

Whatever, who cares. Both exactly the same.

[steve666]

Originally posted by segovius
By becoming them. Right.

Oh wait - the US has been backing terrorists for decades - maybe it's them that are wising up and becoming like you.

Whatever, who cares. Both exactly the same.

We can either fight their way, or die.
I prefer we fight.

They laugh at us when we arrest them, put them on trial , then release them because of some stupid court error.
How many terrorists have European Govmnts released since 9/11?

Fight fire with fire.

[New]

Originally posted by steve666
We can either fight their way, or die.
I prefer we fight.

They laugh at us when we arrest them, put them on trial , then release them because of some stupid court error.
How many terrorists have European Govmnts released since 9/11?

Fight fire with fire.

I've always preferred water. But that's just me.

How many terrorist have the US caught and convicted since 9/11? was it 44? or 14?

link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/11/AR2005061100381.html)

[steve666]

Originally posted by New
I've always preferred water. But that's just me.

How many terrorist have the US caught and convicted since 9/11? was it 44? or 14?

link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/11/AR2005061100381.html)

Did we let them go for no reason?
Europe has.

Fight them with the whatever we have.
The U.S. is a warrior nation, always has been.
If you fuck with us, we fuck you back.

[Gene Clean]

You fight by kidnapping religious people and shipping them to No Man's Land to be tortured?

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
You fight by kidnapping religious people and shipping them to No Man's Land to be tortured?

Religious people? He's a radical islamist. He's about as religious as Charles manson.
No mans land? Its called Egypt.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by steve666
[B]Religious people?

Yeah. Religious people. The dude was an imam, if you have any idea what that means.

He's a radical islamist.

Or so you say. I can show you a long list of radical christians who happen to be religious people. Or jews. Or hindus. Religion and radicalism are not mutually exclusive.

He's about as religious as Charles manson.

And you're about right as Bush with regard to WMD.

No mans land? Its called Egypt.

Where there is no law, no man resides. They are taking them to places in Egypt where the law can't touch them. What else do you call a place where no law applies?

[FormerLurker]

Originally posted by New
How many terrorist have the US caught and convicted since 9/11? was it 44? or 14?

link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/11/AR2005061100381.html)

But a large number of people appear to have been swept into U.S. counterterrorism investigations by chance -- through anonymous tips, suspicious circumstances or bad luck -- and have remained classified as terrorism defendants years after being cleared of connections to extremist groups.

We should just shoot anyone suspected of terrorism, so we can be sure no one gets away.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Yeah. Religious people. The dude was an imam, if you have any idea what that means.



Or so you say. I can show you a long list of radical christians who happen to be religious people. Or jews. Or hindus. Religion and radicalism are not mutually exclusive.



And you're about right as Bush with regard to WMD.



Where there is no law, no man resides. They are taking them to places in Egypt where the law can't touch them. What else do you call a place where no law applies?

Imam? The same Imams who tell their idiot flock to kill people? Yeh, he's real religious.
If its in Egypt, theres law. And I couldnt give a rats ass about the creep.

[addabox]

Originally posted by steve666
Imam? The same Imams who tell their idiot flock to kill people? Yeh, he's real religious.
If its in Egypt, theres law. And I couldnt give a rats ass about the creep.

Your little dial is pretty much stuck on "belligerent asshole", isn't it?

[segovius]

Originally posted by steve666
Imam? The same Imams who tell their idiot flock to kill people? Yeh, he's real religious.
If its in Egypt, theres law. And I couldnt give a rats ass about the creep.

You're missing the entire point. Let me spell it out:

Imam? The same Imams who tell their idiot flock to kill people? Yes - the very same. Ie: Those Imams that are told to kill people because they are on the CIA payroll

So yes, absolutely - once again: the Imams that are working for the current US admin. You should support these Imams. They're on your team.

From New Hampshire Sunday News: (http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=57308)

Rome newspaper La Repubblica quoted the former head of the CIA's Osama bin Laden unit, Michael Scheuer, as saying the CIA received authorization from Italy's secret service, SISMI, before the operation.

Good enough to get them off the hook for people like you (who admittedly are the majority) but not actually a massive mistake and a smoking gun for anyone with a scintilla of independent thought because SISMI are a terrorist outfit themselves !

Not only were they responsible for the faked Niger documents (another link to the Bush admin) but they were known to be a far-right fascist cabal even before the current Gladio scandal.

Here is Eric Margolis (http://www.bigeye.com/fc080504.htm) from August 2004:

SISMI has long been notorious for far right, even neo-fascist, leanings. According to Italian judicial investigators, SISMI was deeply involved in numerous plots against Italy's democratic government, including the 1980 Bologna train station terrorist bombing that left 85 dead and 200 injured.

Senior SISMI officers were in cahoots with celebrated swindler Roberto Calvi, the neo-fascist P2 Masonic Lodge, other extreme rightist groups trying to destabilize Italy, the Washington neocon operative, Michael Ledeen, and the Iran-Contra conspirators.

SISMI works hand in glove with US, British and Israeli intelligence. In the 1960's and 70's, SISMI reportedly carried out numerous operations for CIA, including bugging the Vatican, the Italian president's palace, and foreign embassies.

And now, despite your unwavering support and approval, this terrorist outfit has been busted and will have to face justice.

Along with the CIA agents who illegally kidnapped (or rescued ?) their own Imam. Along with Michael Ladeen. Along with other Washington criminals if the circle widens to encompass the forged Niger documents.

You can start panicking now- this is the beginning of the end of your 15 minutes.

[steve666]

Originally posted by addabox
Your little dial is pretty much stuck on "belligerent asshole", isn't it?

Now was that nice?

[steve666]

Originally posted by segovius
You're missing the entire point. Let me spell it out:

Imam? The same Imams who tell their idiot flock to kill people? Yes - the very same. Ie: Those Imams that are told to kill people because they are on the CIA payroll

So yes, absolutely - once again: the Imams that are working for the current US admin. You should support these Imams. They're on your team.

From New Hampshire Sunday News: (http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=57308)



Good enough to get them off the hook for people like you (who admittedly are the majority) but not actually a massive mistake and a smoking gun for anyone with a scintilla of independent thought because SISMI are a terrorist outfit themselves !

Not only were they responsible for the faked Niger documents (another link to the Bush admin) but they were known to be a far-right fascist cabal even before the current Gladio scandal.

Here is Eric Margolis (http://www.bigeye.com/fc080504.htm) from August 2004:



And now, despite your unwavering support and approval, this terrorist outfit has been busted and will have to face justice.

Along with the CIA agents who illegally kidnapped (or rescued ?) their own Imam. Along with Michael Ladeen. Along with other Washington criminals if the circle widens to encompass the forged Niger documents.

You can start panicking now- this is the beginning of the end of your 15 minutes.

What are you babbling about? You need to get out more often.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Originally posted by steve666
Now was that nice?
I don't know. You're one of the most consistently aggressive, graceless posters we've had in these parts since Scott, so I don't think you're entitled to object too loud when people react in ways you don't like.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
I don't know. You're one of the most consistently aggressive, graceless posters we've had in these parts since Scott, so I don't think you're entitled to object too loud when people react in ways you don't like.

I only react when someone is rude to me.
If you look at my previous posts I dont start out that way.
I can give it as well as i can take it, so dont expect me to just say nothing when someone says something snide to me.

[steve666]

Now, after what happened in London, I think Italy should be thanking us.

Every single country in the entire world should take any and all radical Muslims and send them back to the countries they came from.
Now.
Immediately.

They are just waiting to do it again and again, who knows where?

Get rid of them.

[New]

I know where. Italy and Denmark.





And Poland, if anybody cares...

[addabox]

Originally posted by steve666
Now, after what happened in London, I think Italy should be thanking us.

Every single country in the entire world should take any and all radical Muslims and send them back to the countries they came from.
Now.
Immediately.

They are just waiting to do it again and again, who knows where?

Get rid of them.

You keep talking about "radical Muslims" as if that were a self evident distinction. Do you imagine they are hanging out shingles and wearing t-shirts? Maybe you think there is some sizable contingent of Muslims walking around in London today holding signs saying "We applaud the death of our fellow countrymen and sneer at your inability to ferret us out"?

And who decides where the dividing line between "Muslim who is less than enthusiastic about Western global hegemony" and "Radical" lies?

It's not a trivial point: I would imagine that the vast majority of citizens earmarked in your book for deportation would fall on the "perfectly legitimate political opposition to the government" side of the ledger.

So maybe you're proposing a new math: Muslim plus political activism that you disagree with equals radical equals pogrom.

As to the "send 'em back where they came from" line (so sweetly reminiscent of the "back to Africa" rhetoric of generations of American racists), has it occurred to you that many of the people you would deem "radical" are in fact born and raised in the countries they live in? That they in fact are citizens of those countries, and regard themselves as contributing to the well being of those countries by adding their voices and perspectives to the always messy business of a pluralistic society?

Democracy. It's a pretty cool concept, you might want to check it out sometime.

[steve666]

Originally posted by New
I know where. Italy and Denmark.





And Poland, if anybody cares...

And you think its justified, don't you?

[steve666]

Originally posted by addabox
You keep talking about "radical Muslims" as if that were a self evident distinction. Do you imagine they are hanging out shingles and wearing t-shirts? Maybe you think there is some sizable contingent of Muslims walking around in London today holding signs saying "We applaud the death of our fellow countrymen and sneer at your inability to ferret us out"?

And who decides where the dividing line between "Muslim who is less than enthusiastic about Western global hegemony" and "Radical" lies?

It's not a trivial point: I would imagine that the vast majority of citizens earmarked in your book for deportation would fall on the "perfectly legitimate political opposition to the government" side of the ledger.

So maybe you're proposing a new math: Muslim plus political activism that you disagree with equals radical equals pogrom.

As to the "send 'em back where they came from" line (so sweetly reminiscent of the "back to Africa" rhetoric of generations of American racists), has it occurred to you that many of the people you would deem "radical" are in fact born and raised in the countries they live in? That they in fact are citizens of those countries, and regard themselves as contributing to the well being of those countries by adding their voices and perspectives to the always messy business of a pluralistic society?

Democracy. It's a pretty cool concept, you might want to check it out sometime.

Tell that to the scumbags who are living in a Democracy and taking advantage of the freedoms they are given and turn them against the same people that blessed them with the possibility to live in freedom.
A run-on sentence but you get the gist.
We can't deport citizens of the US, but those who are not yet citizens we sure can.
Anyone with ties to Al-Queda, who supports Al-Queda even verbally, who has ties to other Arab extremist groups, who preach anti-West violence need to be removed. I can't even believe someone would even argue this point.

[addabox]

Originally posted by steve666
Tell that to the scumbags who are living in a Democracy and taking advantage of the freedoms they are given and turn them against the same people that blessed them with the possibility to live in freedom.
A run-on sentence but you get the gist.
We can't deport citizens of the US, but those who are not yet citizens we sure can.
Anyone with ties to Al-Queda, who supports Al-Queda even verbally, who has ties to other Arab extremist groups, who preach anti-West violence need to be removed. I can't even believe someone would even argue this point.

Well, see, the thing is, you don't actually have a point.

It's all well and good to call for the deportation of "scumbags" based on whatever criteria, but that's hardly the same as a plan of action.

What constitutes a "tie" to al Qaeda? What does "supporting al Qaeda verbally" mean? What constitutes a "tie" to "other extremist groups", and how are "other extremist groups" identified? What qualifies as "preaching anti-western violence"?

What laws would have to be passed, or eliminated, to allow for the summary deportation of someone who has been judged to have "ties" to an "Arab extremist group"? Who decides? How extreme is too extreme? How recent does the "tie" have to be?

Without some thought as to the answers to those questions, you're just making belligerent noises.

[steve666]

Originally posted by addabox
Well, see, the thing is, you don't actually have a point.

It's all well and good to call for the deportation of "scumbags" based on whatever criteria, but that's hardly the same as a plan of action.

What constitutes a "tie" to al Qaeda? What does "supporting al Qaeda verbally" mean? What constitutes a "tie" to "other extremist groups", and how are "other extremist groups" identified? What qualifies as "preaching anti-western violence"?

What laws would have to be passed, or eliminated, to allow for the summary deportation of someone who has been judged to have "ties" to an "Arab extremist group"? Who decides? How extreme is too extreme? How recent does the "tie" have to be?

Without some thought as to the answers to those questions, you're just making belligerent noises.

There are already laws that allow for deportation of individuals thought to be a menace to the country.
In this climate I dont think it would be too difficult to deport them.
If new laws are needed that wouldnt be much of a problem either.

Anyone who donates money to terror groups, have had contact with any known Al-Queda or other radical group, anyone who has spoken out in favor of Al-Queda or in favor of violent acts against the West, etc etc.
Its pretty obvious

[addabox]

It's "obvious" in the sense that reducing the crime rate by arresting all the bad guys is "obvious"; that is, an absolute slam dunk until you have to figure out what that actually means and what is required.

I am unaware of these mosques that you apparently have in mind that have their "I heart terrorism" banners hanging out; if there are any such I'm guessing they are already pretty much locked down.

Ditto these crowds of al Qaeda funders and sympathizers that are openly doing business unmolested.

Which leaves people who may or may not be involved with terrorist entities, which means police work. Which is what is happening.

What it appears you're actually arguing for is getting real casual about what constitutes "involved with terrorists" so we can come down real heavy on a lot of people right away providing you with some kind of catharsis.

That would be illegal, immoral, and counter productive.

It's pretty obvious.

[steve666]

You are just trying to find something to argue about.
What I said is logical and common sense.

Obviously we are not doing a good enough job ay weeding out the scum. This goes doubly for Europe.

Its time to take off the gloves and take action.

[New]

Originally posted by steve666
And you think its justified, don't you?

No I don't. But unfortunately justice has nothing to do with it.


So Why on earth did you think I would find it justified? What kind of monster are you?

[steve666]

Originally posted by New
No I don't. But unfortunately justice has nothing to do with it.


So Why on earth did you think I would find it justified? What kind of monster are you?

actually, it is more what kind of monster are you?
You have been trying to make excuses for terrorist behavior. Its our foreign policy, right? Its because they are pissed off, right?

So, will you come right out and say that their is no excuse for terrorist murders?

[addabox]

Originally posted by steve666
You are just trying to find something to argue about.
Nope.

What I said is logical and common sense.

Nope.

Obviously we are not doing a good enough job ay weeding out the scum. This goes doubly for Europe.

Its time to take off the gloves and take action.

Again, and do what? You keep saying "scum" and "scumbag" like that's some neighborhood that everybody knows about that we are inexplicably ignoring.

If these "scumbags" are so overt in there support for terrorism, don't you think they've already been dealt with? Are you imagining that radical Muslim clerics are advocating the violent deaths of their countrymen and the local authorities are just standing around saying, "Oh, well, what are you going to do...."?

And what does that have to do with the terror bombing in London? Terrorists are, believe it or not, secretive. They don't march around with "scumbag" written on their foreheads. They don't go down to the local pub and laugh about how they get away with terrorism because their host societies lack the will to take the hard measures.

So, again, I can only imagine that you mean we should just pretty much round up any Muslim who has ever uttered a single word against the government, or has ever sent any money to any organization that can in any way be linked to terrorism (and once you put your mind to it, you can link pretty much anything to anything), or who knows anybody like that, or maybe just is Muslim.

Which would certainly be taking the gloves off.

[New]

Originally posted by steve666
actually, it is more what kind of monster are you?
You have been trying to make excuses for terrorist behavior. Its our foreign policy, right? Its because they are pissed off, right?

So, will you come right out and say that their is no excuse for terrorist murders?

I have never made any excuses. IF you cannot see the difference between excuses and explanations you are dumber then I though.

So stop putting opinions that I don't have in my lap, ok?

[steve666]

You know exactly what I am talking about

[New]

Originally posted by steve666
You know exactly what I am talking about :rolleyes:

Answer the question. Why did you think I would find it justified?

[Relic]

This is a fun thread. Steve, why do you think these Terrorists are attacking? Is it because they hate democracy or is it because they just hate freedom so much? Find them, kill them, destroy them, that’s all I here coming out of your mouth. Evil begets evil Mr. 666, cause and effect, what goes up must come down and for your info we started this fire not them. We get so pissed off when people don’t play fair in this world but it’s a two edged sword my friend, the US has pissed to many people off and frankly I don’t blame them for fighting back.

[steve666]

Originally posted by New
:rolleyes:

Answer the question. Why did you think I would find it justified?

Oh no, the question was put to you:
Do you find the attacks on London or any terrorist attacks are justified?

[steve666]

Originally posted by Relic
This is a fun thread. Steve, why do you think these Terrorists are attacking? Is it because they hate democracy or is it because they just hate freedom so much? Find them, kill them, destroy them, that’s all I here coming out of your mouth. Evil begets evil Mr. 666, cause and effect, what goes up must come down and for your info we started this fire not them. We get so pissed off when people don’t play fair in this world but it’s a two edged sword my friend, the US has pissed to many people off and frankly I don’t blame them for fighting back.

You consider that fighting back?
You're just as bad as the terrorists.

You and your buddy new can go throw them a party for killing innocent men and women who were just trying to get to work.

You people make me sick.

[New]

Originally posted by steve666
Oh no, the question was put to you:
Do you find the attacks on London or any terrorist attacks are justified?

hello Steve, I already said no and called you a monster. My question back was Why would you think such a horrific thing?

Why is it always so hard for you to answer straight?

[New]

Originally posted by steve666
You people make me sick.

I don't think we are the cause of your condition.

[steve666]

Originally posted by New
I don't think we are the cause of your condition.

The problem is, you don't think.

[New]

Why is it always so hard for you to answer straight?

[steve666]

Originally posted by New
Why is it always so hard for you to answer straight?

Ask yourself that question. i cant remember the last time you have. usually you do what you just did, turn around and ask me a question without you having answered one yourself.

[New]

Originally posted by steve666
Ask yourself that question. i cant remember the last time you have. usually you do what you just did, turn around and ask me a question without you having answered one yourself.

OMFG... I answered your question. NO IT IS NOT JUSTIFIED! I asked you back; Why on earth you thought that I would find it justified? Could you just please answer the stupid question?

(It's doesn't even require any research!)

[steve666]

Originally posted by New
OMFG... I answered your question. NO IT IS NOT JUSTIFIED! I asked you back; Why on earth you thought that I would find it justified? Could you just please answer the stupid question?

(It's doesn't even require any research!)

actually, you did not say that, you said nothing. Now, you have said that and I praise you for it.

I thought you would find it justified because of our foreign policy and the fact that Britain was on our side. I thought for sure you were going to say it was because of our actions that this terror attack took place.

Now, you have written for all to see that their is no justification whatsoever for terror attacks against civilians. Glad to see it.

[New]

Originally posted by New
No I don't. But unfortunately justice has nothing to do with it.


So Why on earth did you think I would find it justified? What kind of monster are you?

Originally posted by New
hello Steve, I already said no and called you a monster. My question back was Why would you think such a horrific thing?

Why is it always so hard for you to answer straight?

See? It says no twice?

[New]

Originally posted by steve666
I thought you would find it justified because of our foreign policy and the fact that Britain was on our side. I thought for sure you were going to say it was because of our actions that this terror attack took place.

Now, you have written for all to see that their is no justification whatsoever for terror attacks against civilians. Glad to see it.

Yes, this terror most likely took place because of your (the US) millitary action in Iraq. That's an explanation, not a justification.

Killing civilians is never justified in my view.

[steve666]

Originally posted by New
Yes, this terror most likely took place because of your (the US) millitary action in Iraq. That's an explanation, not a justification.

Killing civilians is never justified in my view.

Then I apologize for what I said. I must have had you confused with geneclean, or maybe segovius.

Once again I apologize.

[Gon]

I don't see Steve answering what I thought to be a very good question by addabox - namely, what does it solve to get "tougher" when there are already enough laws in place to deport or imprison someone once you have proof of terrorist activity?

I find this "civilians are off limits" is just a fantasy that works as long as everybody pretends it is so. If a democratic country goes to war, it's because the people voted so, or elected representatives who made the decision. The real issue is if the war is justified.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gon
I don't see Steve answering what I thought to be a very good question by addabox - namely, what does it solve to get "tougher" when there are already enough laws in place to deport or imprison someone once you have proof of terrorist activity?

I find this "civilians are off limits" is just a fantasy that works as long as everybody pretends it is so. If a democratic country goes to war, it's because the people voted so, or elected representatives who made the decision. The real issue is if the war is justified.

There are no laws on the books that I know of that would allow the US to deport someone for merely inciting violence by preaching.
There should be.

[Towel]

Originally posted by steve666
There are no laws on the books that I know of that would allow the US to deport someone for merely inciting violence by preaching.
There should be. I don't know about deporting, but we can apparently send someone to prison for life (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601548.html) for such things.

[steve666]

Originally posted by Towel
I don't know about deporting, but we can apparently send someone to prison for life (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601548.html) for such things.

I'll settle for that, but its expensive.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by steve666
I'll settle for that, but its expensive.

We can always feed them with a bowl of rice and a cup of water a day (cold water, so we don't waste any electricity boiling it).

[steve666]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
We can always feed them with a bowl of rice and a cup of water a day (cold water, so we don't waste any electricity boiling it).

Thats too much