iMac G5 VS mactels

[jetting]

I'm really not sure what to do when it comes to this...so a full desktop styled mac is expected to come out around mid 2006, right? Well I need a computer pretty soon, at least within the month of January when the macintels are released. I can't decide if I should go with a macintel or the current iMac G5. I really like the iMac because of its all-in-one features but it could be "out of date" by the time the macintels come out. I also dont want a macintel with built in graphics like the iBook and mac mini might be, right? So should I go with the current iMac or which macintel? I will wait until the macintels are released to see their specs most likely. Thanks, your opinion is appreciated.

[krispie]

Top work!

A fantastic late claim for worst troll of 2005.

[debenm]

They just updated the iMac in this quater... I wouldn't expect an update for a while. Buy the 20" iMac ~ it's incredible! And I am sure the G5 will not in any way be 'slow' anytime soon. It is by far the best purchase I've made in a very long time and with built in iSight and all the frontrow stuff, I think I'd hold off on the MacIntel for a bit.

[Hobbes]

Originally posted by krispie
A fantastic late claim for worst troll of 2005.

:err: How on earth is this a troll? He's asking politely for information.

If you're thinking of getting a laptop, it would be wise to wait until MWSF on Jan 9th. If you know you want a desktop, though, I think the iMac is a very safe choice. The G5 is a very good chip, the current iMacs are drop-dead gorgeous, Apple will support PPC Macs for many years to come (at very least 3-5, and probably for a decade or more), and all the upcoming software to run on Intel Macs will be "universal binaries" that run on existing PPC Macs as well.

[concentricity]

Originally posted by Hobbes
:err: How on earth is this a troll? He's asking politely for information.

If you're thinking of getting a laptop, it would be wise to wait until MWSF on Jan 9th. If you know you want a desktop, though, I think the iMac is a very safe choice. The G5 is a very good chip, the current iMacs are drop-dead gorgeous, Apple will support PPC Macs for many years to come (at very least 3-5, and probably for a decade or more), and all the upcoming software to run on Intel Macs will be "universal binaries" that run on existing PPC Macs as well.

I completely agree with this. Also, you might consider getting one of the 2.0GHz 20" iMacs for only $1299! Apple is doing free overnight shipping on the "refurbs" (many of which are just overstock). Either way, the 20" iMacs really are great machines. I don't own one, but I work with them at work all the time (where I'm an IT consultant). Overall great machines.

[belzebuth]

Originally posted by Hobbes
Apple will support PPC Macs for many years to come (at very least 3-5, and probably for a decade or more)

A decade or more???:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Leopart (2006) will be PPC and intel, 100%
10.6 (mid 2008?) will be, more than probably.
10.7 (end 2009?) will probably not
10.8 definetly not

I would say apple will support PPC for 4 to 6 years from now, at the maximum!
and all the new features, and new apps, will not be available with a super-slow G5 in 5 years! look at the required spec for iLife! a 5 year-old mac (iMac G3 500) cannot run any of them but iTunes!

A computer is a 3 years investment.

[Addison]

Take a look at Aperture, it has been blocked for almost all discontinued machines.

Apple has been taking a very subtle but hard nosed attitude recently, it has learned that Microsoft earns it's money from re-selling the same software with minor modifications. Apple's strategy is that new software is only supported by the latest version of OSX and will not be backwards compatible (note that third party developers do not seem to suffer from this phenomenon) and some will also require the latest hardware.

If you have seen any of the new version of the Mac developers stuff, in it is an option to build a fat binary, a PPC only or an x86 only binary. I am sure that some developers will increasingly build x86 only binarys. In many ways that would not make any sense as there will be very few x86 machines on the market, but I think that people do not build new products for legacy systems and ppc is now legacy, like it or not, and I am not sure yet that I do.

[Kolchak]

You could always just buy a current model Mini right now and wait 6 months or so for the Rev B Mactels. A Mini's cheap enough that it can be considered almost disposable. You can give it away to somebody needy at the end of that period, like a computer-phobic parent or grandparent and you can be confident they're getting a good machine virtually immune to crashes and viruses. This would also mean you don't have to suffer the bugs of the first Mactels. I personally don't like to be a bleeding edge early adopter if I don't have to.

[gar]

Originally posted by belzebuth
[snip]A computer is a 3 years investment. indeed and most macs have in general a lifespan closer to 5-6 years. that will get us straight in the next decade.
will they still be supported with the newest os in 5-6 years? probally not.
is that a problem? of course not.

it's nice to have an almost 6 years old powerbook running tiger, but it starts showing its age. time to move allong

[krispie]

Of course it's a troll.

What non-troller would ask for buying advice on machines that no-one outside of a chosen few within Apple knows

a) when they'll be available
b) what the specs will be

These stupid 'should I buy now or wait' questions always have one simple answer: If you need it now, buy it now. If you don't, then wait.

[Hobbes]

And a merry xmas to you too. :no:

I see nothing even *vaguely* trollish about the OP's post.

Anyway, yeah, OK, a decade is probably overstating it, but I do expect Apple and the Mac software market to be supporting PPC Macs for a good number of years. 20+ million PPC Mac users out there are going to take a good long time before they're all using Intel macs.

[Matsu]

I think practical PPC support (from Apple) will not last too long. Officially, it may last for the next 5 years (with one down basically) but by the time the line-up is completely transitioned, you can expect that Intel versions will start to get little bells and whistles that never quite make it to the PPC. It's just the way of things. OSX left some people behind -- and while it still works on even a 300Ghz iMac G3, it is far from optimal. Likewise, the last five years have seen subsequent verions of all sorts leave users back -- each generation of quartz improvements (quartz extreme and core graphics), versions of QT, iChat A/V, OSX, etc... A lot of it still works, but not as well as on supported machinery. This is not something to get too upset about, though, it's a pretty natural thing in the computer world. However, I think it naive to expect "100%" support for a line that's being phased out, regardless of what Apple says about it. I would only expect 1 major dual binary release of any of Apple's first party applications.

[Celco]

Originally posted by krispie
Of course it's a troll.

What non-troller would ask for buying advice on machines that no-one outside of a chosen few within Apple knows

a) when they'll be available
b) what the specs will be

These stupid 'should I buy now or wait' questions always have one simple answer: If you need it now, buy it now. If you don't, then wait.


Wow krispy u really have the christmas cheer ... ;) Hey I dont blame you i mean ai had a few trolls lately... but then again a pre emptive attack is always the best approach...:smokey: The funny thing about the mac rumour sites is that they should be taken with a grain of salt.. I mean its just a guy asking about the G5... Itsnot like he's steve ballmers love child or anything...

[DHagan4755]

I just hope that when Intel Macs start showing up, they display much less of that annoying as hell Spinning Pinwheel of Death™.

I had this strange thought run through my mind right after WWDC, and it's this: What if Mac OS X's primary development has been on Intel all along, and then effectively "ported" to PowerPC?

Think of things like performance of the Finder. Sure the Finder may work superbly on the Intel architecture from which it was designed, but reacts and behaves differently when run on PowerPC. If we are to give a Dvorak article a grain of salt, where he spoke of Intel's courting of Steve Jobs back to the point when Pixar switched its rendering farm to Intel processors, this is entirely possible.

The developers who have talked about the Intel transition system on loan from Apple speak of how much more responsive it is on the Pentium 4 3.6GHz processor as compared to the dual 2GHz Power Mac G5.

Bottom line, I can't wait to get my hands on an Intel Mac, and hopefully it will be a portable. I hope to be able to order one in 15 days! ;)

[satchmo]

Originally posted by Matsu
I think practical PPC support (from Apple) will not last too long. Officially, it may last for the next 5 years (with one down basically) but by the time the line-up is completely transitioned, you can expect that Intel versions will start to get little bells and whistles that never quite make it to the PPC.

I hope not...I just picked up a refurbished iMac G5 20" from Apple's store. I'd be okay with 4-5 years but anything less would certainly piss me off.

I had to upgrade since Apple has done away with Firewire in favour of Intel designed USB 2.0 (a sign of things to come?) on it's iPods and my G4 iMac only does USB 1.1.

[Mac Voyer]

Don't expect Apple to respect your purchase of legacy hardware. They won't. They announced six months ago that the PPC was a dead end when they announced the switch to Intel. Any PPC purchased after that should only be for what the computer is good for today. Expect no future compatibility with anything new. And if you get it, consider it a bonus.

When Apple introduced GB, they were still selling G3 machines. Try taking advantage of some of the key features on a G3. iLife represents the entry level. It barely runs on entry level machines.

This discussion comes up every time Apple introduces something new. There is always a contingent of people who have the bleeding edge and are not worried about the next transition because they are somewhat insulated from the effects for a while. They always give bad counsel to people thinking about purchasing the soon to be defunct hardware. New buyers are always optimistic about Apple not abandoning them. Finally, the inevitable happens. The new purchasers are upset because the next great feature left them behind. And the Bleeding edge folks are now singing a different tune, telling them to get over it and what did they expect when buying clearly obsolete hardware.

IMO, you have got to be crazy to buy any PPC equipment before MWSF. You know it will be something you will want and either then or soon after, more releases will come out that won't be compatible with the current stuff. Make a wise decision, not an emotional one.

By the way, the thread starter, if no a bit trollish, is at best, childish. Don't let the money burn a hole in your pocket. Don't get lured by the new iMac's sleek new design, remote control, FR, and iSight. Just because Apple puts lipstick on a pig doesn't mean you have to kiss it. Just wait a couple of weeks and see if a nicer pig comes along.

[PB]

Originally posted by Matsu
I think practical PPC support (from Apple) will not last too long. Officially, it may last for the next 5 years (with one down basically)
I think 5 years is the minimum. The PPC installed base will be much bigger for years to come yet than the Intel one to be just ignored.

but by the time the line-up is completely transitioned, you can expect that Intel versions will start to get little bells and whistles that never quite make it to the PPC. It's just the way of things. OSX left some people behind -- and while it still works on even a 300Ghz iMac G3, it is far from optimal. Likewise, the last five years have seen subsequent verions of all sorts leave users back -- each generation of quartz improvements (quartz extreme and core graphics), versions of QT, iChat A/V, OSX, etc... A lot of it still works, but not as well as on supported machinery. This is not something to get too upset about, though, it's a pretty natural thing in the computer world.

This is quite reasonable, it happened in the past, it will happen in the future. I believe OS X will run on PPC for many years to come, just not optimally. This is nothing new.

However, I think it naive to expect "100%" support for a line that's being phased out, regardless of what Apple says about it. I would only expect 1 major dual binary release of any of Apple's first party applications.
And what they will sell to, say, 70% of their installed user base?

[PB]

Originally posted by Mac Voyer

IMO, you have got to be crazy to buy any PPC equipment before MWSF. You know it will be something you will want and either then or soon after, more releases will come out that won't be compatible with the current stuff. Make a wise decision, not an emotional one.
You forget perhaps that are many people who need a Classic-capable machine. Classic will be dead on the Intel machines.

[@homenow]

Originally posted by Mac Voyer
Don't expect Apple to respect your purchase of legacy hardware. They won't. They announced six months ago that the PPC was a dead end when they announced the switch to Intel. Any PPC purchased after that should only be for what the computer is good for today. Expect no future compatibility with anything new. And if you get it, consider it a bonus...
I believe that Apple, as all manufacturers are, is legally responsible for supporting their hardware for a set period of time. For a computer that includes repair parts and if I'm not mistaken OS updates.

[Matsu]

I don't see where any manufacturer is legally responsible to support any out of warrantee product. And warrantee support only includes such hardware (replacement parts) and software as was officially supported at the time of release. You are entitled to support of the OS versions that shipped with your machine, nothing after, and only for the warrantee period of that machine. Applecare offers three years extended warrantee. The transition will be complete in two years. Do the math and you get 2 + 3 = 5 years. Apple can talk about dual binaries all they want, but it's a telling little bit of forecasting...

The transition will happen like this:

"Full" support will be available for one "major" update of the OS and first party apps, and some minor updates as well. These are on about a 18-24 month cycle. So a release of all the major software at sometime next year, keeps PPC users covered through to end of 2008. After that support will just get less robust. Things will work, but certain features will of neccessity only work on Intel macs, the same way iChat AV, or QT encoding, or Quartz extreme, or Core Image only works on newer machines. The programs that utilize these technologies still work on older macs, but not as well. Likewise expect PPC support, but not 100% functionality, because that doesn't neccessarily happen even between generations of the same platform...

As for installed base, that's not so much of a concern. By the end of 2007, users will not have any PPC macs to buy, and most will have moved on before then. They will have updates in that time frame which will serve the PPC for 2-3 years.

Apple does not make it's software work perfectly with old macs now, and they can't, because new software demands more advanced hardware all the time. Third party manufacturers do the same. They add features to their software, and those features need ever increasing speed.

Is it a question that new software gets built for todays machiens or that new machines get built for today's software? The answer doesn't really matter because the net effect is the same. An upgrade cycle is assumed. Companies assume that anyone using three year old machines already bought their two or three year old software to run on them, and that assumption is correct.

Look at some professional operations. It's amazing how many older machines running older versions everything from office to FCP, to photoshop, to avid, are still in use...

Basically, the installed base doesn't really matter in the way some are counting it, they made their major software purchases when they were installed, and don't really make new ones untill it's time for a major new installation.

[PB]

Originally posted by Matsu

As for installed base, that's not so much of a concern.

No, it is this exactly that will shape the time frame of PPC support.



By the end of 2007, users will not have any PPC macs to buy, and most will have moved on before then.


This is one of the most optimistic projections I have ever seen. In my opinion, by the end of 2007 and if the transition goes as scheduled, the Intel/PPC Macs ratio will be still tiny.

[Matsu]

You're ignoring something rather major. New software tends to be installed at the time of purchase, or shortly thereafter. The buying cycle of computers means that software companies are under far more pressure to add features and improvements to their software than they are to cater to installed base. Hardware installations tend to happen in an effort to boost software performance. People just don't buy CS2, or shake, or FCP 5 to use (heavily) on their 3-5 year old systems. A few hobbiests might (just to prove a point), but pros aren't wasting their time trying to do that. Which is not to say that pros don't use older equipment, they do: they just keep the older software on it -- because it fits their use and they know it well. It's more likely that these users take old licences to new machines, than it is that they acquire new licencees for old machines.

That's why we'll only see, and only need, one major PPC (fat binary) update of existing software. By the time a second would be needed, the "installed base" would virtually all be ready for a hardware upgrade and by then they will have only Intel options. PPC updating will continue, but it won't have all the capabilities of Intel versions -- just older PPC can't do everything newer PPC can do.

Transitions will be fast. All the laptops, the mini, and possibly the iMacs will be Intel in '06. The desktops in '07. The only question is whether Apple chooses to keep a "legacy" Powermac G5 around for some of it's pro users who want to port software over.

Software is a much bigger investment in time/training, debugging, and overall costs than hardware is. When you think about "installed base" you should think about application users, that's the true installed base, NOT, machines sold. You build machines for the software user.

If you're Apple, you worry about making Rosetta, and fat binaries in an effort to ensure the quality of the Intel experience -- get apps transitioned quickly, let old apps work well on new hardware -- because that's where you're going with your machines, and where some PPC software will end up. The spin-off effect is that PPC machines benefit from a period of continued support, but that PPC hardware base is not the reason for your actions.

Last gen hardware is never an long-term concern for new generation software.

[PB]

Originally posted by Matsu

That's why we'll only see, and only need, one major PPC (fat binary) update of existing software. By the time a second would be needed, the "installed base" would virtually all be ready for a hardware upgrade and by then they will have only Intel options.


Too far optimistic. This holds for the pro market and for nothing else. The big mass is the consumer market, which updates hardware much slower.




PPC updating will continue, but it won't have all the capabilities of Intel versions -- just older PPC can't do everything newer PPC can do.


Here we agree.



Transitions will be fast. All the laptops, the mini, and possibly the iMacs will be Intel in '06. The desktops in '07. The only question is whether Apple chooses to keep a "legacy" Powermac G5 around for some of it's pro users who want to port software over.


Well, that remains to be seen. No one can say at this point if there are bumps down the transition road. Perhaps it will go fine, perhaps not.



The spin-off effect is that PPC machines benefit from a period of continued support, but that PPC hardware base is not the reason for your actions.


Not in the long term of course, but it is in the beginning. Apple will need to continue selling OS X to older Macs for some time, otherwise the development will suffer. From past experience, this covers, more or less, a 5 year period of hardware generations.



Last gen hardware is never an long-term concern for new generation software.
Very doubtful and relative statement.

[Matsu]

Relative yes, but not so imprecise.

Apple will sell some PPC macs at least 'till '07. I think they're going to have all their major products on Intel by the end of O7, and the majority by mid '07. A legacy mac PPC may stick around however...

Add a three year extended warrantee period, that means support till 2010. However, software update cycles are starting to stabilize around 18-24 months. Assuming we see retail versions of dual binary OS next year, and first party apps late next year. Two more years for the major updates puts them in circa 2008. Software which should be perfectly usable on the very last of the PPC macs (sold in '07) and will take users through to 2010. I would not expect a second major update at that time to maintain anything close to a 100% feature set, or support of new features.

How good is new feature set support today for macs sold in 2001? This is no different. You don't expect new feature support four years down the line, even on the same hardware platform, so you have even less reason to expect it after a transition which requires both Apple and software devs to redirect resources into the building of Apps for their then current (not past) paying customers.

Consumers are not very problematic. PPC owners will get 10.5.xxx and one more nice bundle update. Intel owners will get all that stuff on their machines too. PPC Office users have '04 -- which will be absolutely fine for years, and one update, which lengthens that out even farther. CS users have CS2, and may/may not get anything else, but can pretty much get any job done with that.

Machines get left behind, get used to it, it's really OK. My original 12" PB still does everything it did the day I bought it. Any software improvements have just been gravy, but eventually the train pulls away...

[PB]

Originally posted by Matsu
Relative yes, but not so imprecise.

My meaning of "doubtful" is not so imprecise; it has more to do with what relativity implies.

Machines get left behind, get used to it, it's really OK.

I never said the opposite. This is a matter of fact. I have just a different view of how Apple will handle the transition.

My original 12" PB still does everything it did the day I bought it. Any software improvements have just been gravy, but eventually the train pulls away...
Which model exactly is this? The original, first generation 12"?

[Matsu]

Yep, original 867Mhz, USB1.1, VGA-out 12" PB. See, can't connect a new iPod at full USB2 speed, and Apple dropped FW, I use a dual input LCD (can't use DVI only). It's OK. Everything still works. Could be faster, but running office, browsing the web, a fooling with PS, it goes well enough...

[teufel]

Well,
troll or no troll (and some offensive posts are more of a burden to read than some stupid questions), i gave my 3 years old Powerbook 1Ghz G4 to my son, bought a 17" iMac last week, to be able to wait till rev.B of Mactel notebooks, and will decide in the second part of next year which of the new babies Apple will come up with is worth me spending more money.
I have a working machine for the next 3 to 4 years, whith a huge collection of software i do not intend to upgrade (or cannot) for when intel machines come up, and when there is a really good ibook or powerbook out, i will buy one for travel, and set up aairport network home.

Have a happy New Year (yeah, even the flamers):devil:

[Vox Barbara]

Originally posted by belzebuth
...
I would say apple will support PPC for 4 to 6 years from now, at the maximum!
and all the new features, and new apps, will not be available with a super-slow G5 in 5 years! look at the required spec for iLife! a 5 year-old mac (iMac G3 500) cannot run any of them but iTunes!

A computer is a 3 years investment.
Objection!
My first Mac LC lasted 7yrs
Quadra 700 = 7yrs
iMac G3 350 = until now, say 6 yrs,
PB 1ghz 12" = until now, with an estimated lifetime of another 4-5 years.

[PeterT]

Any idea how the yonah proforms with respect to the G5?

[PeterT]

Any idea how the yonah proforms with respect to the G5?