I'm switching to Linux/Windows

[Placebo]

I've decided that I'm too much of a hardware/games freak to keep on living with an overpriced system and an undersupported (game-wise) operating system. So I'll be switching to Linux for my desktop putzing-around operating system and Windows my gaming/productivity OS.

I might try to run Mac OS X on another partition, but I'm not going to put a lot of effort into it if it's going to get broken with every software update.

So long.

[Lupa]

Happy trails.

I can't really see the point of this thread though?

[Placebo]

To watch you people try to win me back? No clue. Just putting it out there.

[ghstmars]

godspeed!

[Shadow Slayer 26]

well 2 things...

1 compare a new imac to a dell. Make sure you configure it evenly. (remember build in webcam, wireless, bluetooth...)

2. Vista will be able to run on the new intel macs...which means use that for your games.

I'm just now switching to mac from win/linux becuase of those two reasons.

[ecking]

What's wrong with console games? Xbox 360 should be able to wet your whistle until ps3 and revolution are out. I don't understand the point to pc games for the most part when everything seems to get ported and now all consoles will be able to go online as well so....what's the point?

[progmac]

so does that mean you won't be hanging around here anymore? i hope not!

i installed Ubuntu Linux on my main machine at work and have been very happy with the OS. Open Office is a very competent Office sweet, The Gimp is a nice image editor, and most application you need are available. The look & feel of the operating system is so customizable that you can make it anything you want it to be. Installing most programs and updating things, at least with Ubuntu, is a snap.

But, there are some hangups. And if you like tinkering with your system, it won't be a big deal. Like, for example, Firefox 1.5 never made it to their normal application-download system, so you have to install it more manually. It isn't too big of a deal, but it involves a solid 15 minutes of closely following instructions. Also, the look-and-feel of Nautalis is nowhere near the OS X finder (not that I think the OS X finder is even that great!) and you'll find yourself much more actively involved with your file system than you ever were with OS X. Oh, and F-Spot, the iPhoto-type program, is also just not nearly as smooth, consistent, and nice to use as iPhoto. And, of course, there is no iTunes, so you'll be stuck with a more archane and less-handy way of managing your digital music. On the plus side, Linux browsing is fast (except for Flash, but we have that problem on Mac too) and AIM/MSN/Yahoo!/ICQ support is very adequate.

Ultimately, i imagine you will lead yourself to windows, where you will be able to use Google's awesome Picasa image management program, iTunes, and many of the other good free programs that are available.

When all is said and done, both Linux and Windows (especially Linux) will feel new & cool at first, but then you'll ultimately realize in how many ways they come up short in terms of usability...though you'll also realize they are totally competent OS's and maybe worth it, considering the price of the hardware.

My final note is the constant want to try new things with a computer is pretty much a never ending cycle. It's sort of like those among us who buy a new Mac practically every year. It doesn't change much, but it's fun to change for its own sake.

Good luck!

[MagicFingers]

Good Bye, so long......have fun.... haHAHAHAhahahahAHahahahaaaaaaaa

[Nautical]

Au revoir!

[a_greer]

Originally posted by Placebo
I've decided that I'm too much of a hardware/games freak to keep on living with an overpriced system and an undersupported (game-wise) operating system. So I'll be switching to Linux for my desktop putzing-around operating system and Windows my gaming/productivity OS.

I might try to run Mac OS X on another partition, but I'm not going to put a lot of effort into it if it's going to get broken with every software update.

So long. So, will ya cut a college student a deal on your "overpriced and slow" Apple hardware, and whatever apps you may have??

[Placebo]

I was considering switching to an Intel Mac and then install Vista, but I don't think it'll end up being too easy, and the hardware will still be expensive, so I'm going all the way. I also like AMD hardware much more.



What I'm buying (http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wishlist/WishShareShow.asp?ID=1884637&WishListTitle=COMPUSTER)

Overall, I think that Linux will keep on improving, and frankly I have faith that eventually Apple will see that it's in their interest to at least allow people to put their OS on 3rd-party hardware, even if they don't support it. Until then though, it's off to a world of choices.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by a_greer
So, will ya cut a college student a deal on your "overpriced and slow" Apple hardware, and whatever apps you may have??
Take a look in General Discussion for my other thread and details of my Powermac G5 / display / software.

[progmac]

Originally posted by Placebo
I was considering switching to an Intel Mac and then install Vista, but I don't think it'll end up being too easy, and the hardware will still be expensive, so I'm going all the way. I also like AMD hardware much more.



What I'm buying (http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wishlist/WishShareShow.asp?ID=1884637&WishListTitle=COMPUSTER)

Overall, I think that Linux will keep on improving, and frankly I have faith that eventually Apple will see that it's in their interest to at least allow people to put their OS on 3rd-party hardware, even if they don't support it. Until then though, it's off to a world of choices.
damn, its amazing what you can buy on the PC price for 1500. add pics of the setup whenever you get 'er done. the case looks nice too...hopefully it's quiet, but maybe that isn't a big concern of people wanting max performance. whatcha gonna be using for a display?

[Shadow Slayer 26]

nice computer, except u may have a bit of a bottle neck with the proccesor...i mean you have one of the best gpu's and 2 gigs of ram, but your proccesor isn't to great. its still nice tho. And yah, i think linux will improve, but apple computers are not overprices for what you get. Since im just switching now, ive configured many (many) different computers from many manufactures, and they all end up being about the same.

[a_greer]

Originally posted by Placebo
Take a look in General Discussion for my other thread and details of my Powermac G5 / display / software. Still too rich for my blood -- The Mac platform is a country club, and I am a bus-boy

If I win the lotto, I will get a proper Mac, but I sort of agree, the Apple hardware sux.

Could you imagine OSX on a dual dual core amd 4200+, with 2 Quadras in SLI, THAT would be a workstation...not this "core duo" shit

[a_greer]

Originally posted by progmac
damn, its amazing what you can buy on the PC price for 1500. add pics of the setup whenever you get 'er done. the case looks nice too...hopefully it's quiet, but maybe that isn't a big concern of people wanting max performance. whatcha gonna be using for a display? Acctually, the AMD heatsyncs now use HUGE fans along with the huge fans in the back, it may be quieter than you imagine:

RPM is noise, a big fan moves more air at 1/2 the RPM of a small fan in many cases, that combined with "liquid bearings" results in a really quiet PC, not to mention Energy Star willl turn the RPM of fans down or up as needed, so it will be really quiet if you just surf the net, and a little louder in a game.

Also, you can use this (http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/acoustipack.asp)

[Placebo]

Originally posted by progmac
damn, its amazing what you can buy on the PC price for 1500. add pics of the setup whenever you get 'er done. the case looks nice too...hopefully it's quiet, but maybe that isn't a big concern of people wanting max performance. whatcha gonna be using for a display?
Yeah, that's what really kills me about the Mac versus the PC. You can just get so much great stuff, such a great selection with mix'n'matchable components, for very cheap. My PC-using friends are saying I'm spending a ridiculous amount of money, too. $1500! :D

The case is pretty much the ultimate love-or-hate. I love it. Some of my friends hate it, some of my friends love it.

I'm going for a Dell Ultrasharp widescreen, either a 20.1" or a 24". Whatever I have money for. I might use a CRT in the mean time.

Originally posted by Shadow Slayer 26
nice computer, except u may have a bit of a bottle neck with the proccesor...i mean you have one of the best gpu's and 2 gigs of ram, but your proccesor isn't to great. its still nice tho. And yah, i think linux will improve, but apple computers are not overprices for what you get. Since im just switching now, ive configured many (many) different computers from many manufactures, and they all end up being about the same.
I'm going light on the processor until the dual cores come down. And the processor is still nothing to scoff at, and according to my AMD-freak friend is very very overclockable, even with standard cooling.

[rok]

okay, here's what i don't get. if you're going to switch, then just switch. why yell it from the mountaintop? what is it about using windows/linux that precludes you from participating here? you can talk about upcoming rumors as well as anyone, and heck, with the switch to intel occurring now, you'd be in even better shape to discuss differences in boxes than most of us who just have a mac on/under the desk.

[Placebo]

Why do people post "I switched to Mac" threads? I'm not yelling at people for using Macs, I don't hate Macs, I'm just discussing the reasons I'm switching, and by elaborating on those reasons, this thread is beginning to discuss the interesting points of Mac vs. PC in hardware.

[Shadow Slayer 26]

yah AMD's in general are very overcloackable...very nice too. Still for some reason im getting a mac.

[a_greer]

Face it, people buy Mac for the OS, no one in their right mind would buy their hardware if it werent tied to OSX, it is over priced...

My buddy is building a gaming rig right now, AMD Dual core 4?00, 1 GB ram, NV 7800, ~200-ish gig Caviar HDD, DL-DVD burner, all for ~$1200

Compare that to the mid range (dual core 2.3GHz) PowerMac with a 7800 and 1GB Non-ECC RAM at ~$2950


Now lets add a display: for the PMG5, an Apple 20 inch display which makes the price $3748
TO the PC we add a Dell 20.1 inch display for $450 bringing the total to $1650

He already owns a windows license, but assuming for the equasion, he were to buy Win MCE 2005 at OEM price on Newegg of $114 that would bring the Windows box to a price of $1764 and with MCE, he would have all the functionality of iLife and more (just add Picasa)


3748 less 1764 leaves us with $1984 in the bank: that is a good laptop AND a fun weekend in the city...or more likely for us college students, money that doesnt exist in the first place.

I think Mr. Placebo is coming around to what a ton of PC guys have been saying for years: We will pay good money for OSX, but not on Apples over priced towers...AND WE DEMAND NON-AIO non integrated towers!

[Relic]

Hey Placebo I don\'t blame you one bit. The only thing that keeps me from dumping Apple completely is the OS. I just recently finished my computer buying spree for the year and unfortunately it didn\'t include a Mac. I\'m waiting for the whole PowerPC -> Intel thing to mature a little before investing any more money. After my brother takes my PowerMac off my hands for school I\'ll just have the 12inch brick Powerbook, which pretty much just got replaced with a much lighter, faster Dual Core IBM X61. I use Ubuntu for my Linux distribution, I do have a partition with Windows in my desktop machine but it\'s only used for gaming. You\'ve been around here a long time so don\'t take crap from the \"Ok, then bye now\" crowd. You\'ve been a great addition to this silly forum and we appreciate it. Good luck with your new toy.

Sorry for the \"\\\"\'s I\'m posting this from a Proxy site that seems to have a bad PHP programmer. Ever heard of stripslashes() dude!

[Placebo]

I really, really, really like Mac OS X and everything about it, from Spotlight to Expose. However, I have faith that I can either get myself used to Linux, or configure Linux in a manner that will replace some of the functionality. THere is a Linux Expose utility that I think I'll be installing.

[dutch pear]

Hey there,

I have been around these forums for a year or so and just this week finally made the switch the other way around (AMD athlon 1400 / winXP -> iMac 20" core duo). The reason for my move is the ease and peace of the Mac after years of tinkering with my pc and becoming ever more frustrated at having to defragment, clean registry, fight with driver-issues, update spyware-removal, antivirus, firewall, re-installing windows and not forgetting: annoying noise from cheap PC-fans.
For me, getting rid of all that is well worth the Apple-tax. And i get some pretty neat free software as well (and no, there is no equal to the integrated iLife-suite on windows, only some non-integrated apps such as picasa).
Nevertheless I very much understand you're move as well, I guess it's all about priorities. If you're into hardware and gaming (I'm not) than a PC is a way better option and way more affordable hardware-wise.

So best of luck to you and come around sometimes!

[fahlman]

Originally posted by a_greer
Still too rich for my blood -- The Mac platform is a country club, and I am a bus-boy

If I win the lotto, I will get a proper Mac, but I sort of agree, the Apple hardware sux.

Could you imagine OSX on a dual dual core amd 4200+, with 2 Quadras in SLI, THAT would be a workstation...not this "core duo" shit Price that rig out for us and post back here, will ya?

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Placebo
THere is a Linux Expose utility that I think I'll be installing.

Just watch this (http://www.linuxedge.org/?q=node/55) and you'll see that Expose is not limited to OS X. Or good graphics, or Spotlight, or whatever.

If I had Photoshop, I'd use Linux full-time. I have GIMP, and it's good, but I need Photoshop.

Let us know when you get your hardware. We can help you with choosing a good distro and related things.

Edit: And one more thing, you might want to research Linux compatibility with some of the more exotic hardware you might be getting. I don't mean processor and things like that, but maybe some type of soundcard or if you get a laptop, the WiFi card (Intel ones are the best). And, I cannot emphasize this enough: screw ATi. They have piss-poor drivers for Linux. When it comes to graphics cards, nVidia is the way to go.

[Splinemodel]

No one needs to convince you. Here's what's going to happen: you're going to try to get Linux to do what you want to do, fail, and then just give up and install windows. Then you'll end up being disappointed because Windows isn't good for anything other than playing video games that have been on the consoles for over a year. I'm serious here. Vista may fix things, but XP is just a shit-show when compared to what else is out there.

I highly recommend that you try Suse Linux. Of all of them, it's probably the distribution that's easiest to install. But it's still hard to do without a decent knowledge of C programming, Unix shells, and the like. Mac OS X is a much easier environment to learn these things than is Linux.

[rok]

i work around so many people who use windows and go out of their way to a.) insult me for the computer i use (they call it teasing) and b.) ask me why it's better, like i'm supposed to lead these horses to water AND make them drink.

and then at LEAST once a month, someone's machine goes down and needs to be reinstalled. or norton antivirus goes haywire and takes the internet connection out with it, or the dell server goes down and needs to be brought back up from tape backup. part of it is my IT dept.'s utter incompetence, but i just sit down at my mac and get cool shit done all the time and stuff works, and it usually doesn't stop working, and if it does, i can usually fix it myself, without having to crack open terminal. (but god help me if i have to ask for help once every 4-6 months or so... then they're like "if you were on windows, this wouldn't have happened.")

someone once said the mac os is an operating system that just gets the hell out of your way and lets you get stuff done. i agree. and i get to do way cooler stuff, too, often for way cheaper. people friggin' drop their jaws when they ask me for the impossible kiosk movie in a week, and i crack open my copy of keynote and have it churned out, with hardly any training, in time and well under budget. sure, some things like adobe apps are the same button-for-button across platform, but i tell you, right now, that's not such a great thing.

i enjoy my computer and what i can do with it. and i have a lot of free time because what i need to do gets done faster and more reliably than anyone i've ever known doing the same thing i am doing, but on a windows machine. if people can't learn by my example, then too bad for them.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
I highly recommend that you try Suse Linux. Of all of them, it's probably the distribution that's easiest to install. But it's still hard to do without a decent knowledge of C programming, Unix shells, and the like.

Please stop talking nonsense. Installing SuSE requires knowledge of C programming?! Since when does popping a DVD in the drive and clicking OK need Unix shells?

Installing SuSE has got to be the easiest installation of an OS ever. You just click OK damn it. How much easier does it have to get? Read your mind?

Here's (http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=464&slide=3) a shot by shot installation of SuSE. Now be a good sport and tell us where do you see the requirement for Unix shells and C programming there.

[trumptman]

Well I don't need to do anything to try to bring you back, I'm sure the user experience and the cost of all those ridiculous gaming upgrades will change your mind over time.

I have nothing against PC's. I have three of them in my house and all of them were home-built. My son does his computing on my Abit BH6 which had a Celeron 300a@450 once upon a time. Now it has a Celeron 600@900mhz.

I finally gave up the ghost on the whole PC gaming thing with an AMD XP2400 and 1 gig RAM along with Nvidia 5700. As you can tell this was a while ago because such hardware is already "dated." This stuff is obsolete before you take it out of the box. When I watched Quake go from hardware to software, that helped my justify the costs of the then ridiculous Voodoo 1 and later associated cards. However I have never experienced a game that justified the insane costs of most of the current hardware.

I got very tired of gaining nothing game experience-wise while the hardware demands, and their associated costs continued to climb. Also the console experience simply became more enjoyable. There aren't the continual upgrade costs and sitting on the sofa with the kids was more fun.

Also I really feel Apple has it right with regard to the direction I want to go and how much space, upkeep, etc. I desire to put into my computing experience. I have a G4 tower now and assure you it will be the last tower of any nature I ever own. Laptops, iMacs or even minis are the future of computing that I envision and want in my home. I don't want big, empty fan-laden towers no matter WHO makes them.

People look at the costs of LCD's versus CRT's and even though there are trade offs for most people it is no comparison. They want the LCD. Even with the trade-offs, it represents something better in terms of what we will enjoy.

Macs are this way for me now. Sure I could have a fire-breathing PC tower. I could even have a fire-breathing Mac tower. I don't want either. I want a nice 15 inch laptop computer with dual-cores that can be enjoyed in more than one room of the house or even travel with me.

If I want to game, I'll find a way to enjoy the trade-offs of my kids and I on the sofa with the gamecube, versus high resolution textures. I enjoy that multiplayer experience much more than anything I did gaming online in a room with a big box.

But to each his own...
Nick

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Just watch this (http://www.linuxedge.org/?q=node/55) and you'll see that Expose is not limited to OS X. Or good graphics, or Spotlight, or whatever.

If I had Photoshop, I'd use Linux full-time. I have GIMP, and it's good, but I need Photoshop.

Let us know when you get your hardware. We can help you with choosing a good distro and related things.

Edit: And one more thing, you might want to research Linux compatibility with some of the more exotic hardware you might be getting. I don't mean processor and things like that, but maybe some type of soundcard or if you get a laptop, the WiFi card (Intel ones are the best). And, I cannot emphasize this enough: screw ATi. They have piss-poor drivers for Linux. When it comes to graphics cards, nVidia is the way to go.
Yeah, is what you posted what used to be called Project Looking Glass? Or is what you posted something different? Looks neat either way.

The lack of Photoshop is a setback, I don't use it much anyways, but I won't be able to use Macromedia apps either.

I'm going with Nvidia for graphics just because I like them and their cards are nice. As for compatibility, all of that is compatible I'm pretty sure, although I haven't checked the WiFi adapter.

[Zenga]

I've been a windows user for over 15 years, before that DOS user most of us were, right? anyways after many years of using windows like many of us simply got so frustrated that i wanted to throw acid @ my PC & throw it from the highest place I could find.. With the return of S.Jobs to Apple & the new G3 I just couldn't resist & after that the iMac was simply imposible not to try, with Mac OS 8 @ that time and after with Mac OS 9 installed on my PowerBook G4 500Mhz I was simply happy & relieved of not using windows all the time.. For one reason or another I ended up selling my G3, giving away my iMac to my brother & then the PowerBook to another, just because I was going to buy me "of course" a new mac.. But for some reason "work" "family" who knows I had to hold that buy for more than 3 years.. Going back to windows "full time" reminded me why I had switch to Mac for good & when I left the Macworld, Mac OS X had just come out & I was impressed by the beauty of it, although I saw that it needed much improvement I could see & feel the potential...

So Few years later I come back with a vengance, iMac G5 20" with Tiger.. I can only say: *** I LOVE MY MAC *** .. lol .. In fact I'm just waiting fto see if they come out with the 13.3" MacBooks (iBooks) or the PRO version.. but that's not all.. what i've done in barely 3 months with my iMac I just can't remember ever doing it on any of the PC I've owned.

Mac OS has everything, It doesn't bother me, I get my work done & enjoy using it @ the same time, what else can I say..?

MAC OS X "ROCKS"

P.S. Anybody switching for Mac OS to Win@$%^ please send me your MAC, lol.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Zenga

P.S. Anybody switching for Mac OS to Win@$%^ please send me your MAC, lol.
Sure, I'll include a display and some software.


For $1500.

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Please stop talking nonsense. Installing SuSE requires knowledge of C programming?! Since when does popping a DVD in the drive and clicking OK need Unix shells?

Installing SuSE has got to be the easiest installation of an OS ever. You just click OK damn it. How much easier does it have to get? Read your mind?

Here's (http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=464&slide=3) a shot by shot installation of SuSE. Now be a good sport and tell us where do you see the requirement for Unix shells and C programming there.

It's foolish to assume that everything you'll want to do in Linux will be available from something as pleasant as YAST. Beyond that, I've installed Linux on quite a few machines, and NEVER has there been a time where it was incident free. I'm also going to pan GNU in general for cultivating a ridiculous policy in nomenclature. Sometimes, it's easy to find what you want. Other times, it's a fuckng nightmare, since the names of gnu apps are often extremely cryptic and truncated. I'll gladly type in four more characters when I want to run the damn thing if it helps me remember what it does.

Moving on, you'll undoubtedly need to create shell scripts, config scripts, and plenty of other scripts. You will probably also need to compile some tools, hence the knowledge of C. If you aren't using these tools, I question your motive for going with Linux.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
[B]It's foolish to assume that everything you'll want to do in Linux will be available from something as pleasant as YAST.

There are other pleasant tools. APT, Synaptic, Autopackage, etc. Find typing

apt-get install app-name

hard? Then use Synaptic, a GUI front-end to APT where you just double click on something and it installs.

Beyond that, I've installed Linux on quite a few machines, and NEVER has there been a time where it was incident free.

That also depends on the machines. That's why you need to do some research before you buy hardware to run Linux on.

I'm also going to pan GNU in general for cultivating a ridiculous policy in nomenclature. Sometimes, it's easy to find what you want. Other times, it's a fuckng nightmare, since the names of gnu apps are often extremely cryptic and truncated.

GNU applications are far and few, the most important applications are quite user-friendly; even their names. F-spot for photos, Firefox for web, OpenOffice for an office suite, Gnome Terminal for a Terminal, you get the idea.

I'll gladly type in four more characters when I want to run the damn thing if it helps me remember what it does.

You don't have to type anything, just click on its icon. Remember the icon and use it as a tool to identify the application. Kinda like Safari... the name has nothing to do with browsing webpages, but people know the icon so it's a done deal.

Moving on, you'll undoubtedly need to create shell scripts, config scripts, and plenty of other scripts.

I beg to differ. Show me some examples.

You will probably also need to compile some tools, hence the knowledge of C.

No, knowledge of C is not required at all. Compiling something, when its not available as a binary package, is as easy as typing

./configure
make
make install

and as long as you have the dependencies, you are all set. No C required at all.

If you aren't using these tools, I question your motive for going with Linux.

Stability, speed, a wider array of supported hardware, free software, freedom to modify and adapt the software any way you wish and need.

These are good enough reasons to consider and use Linux.

[hardeeharhar]

Placebo,

Can I have your old G5?

Seriously, though... PC gaming is more or less dead, consoles are on the rise...

What are you going to do?

[Hiro]

You've been bitching for years. The only reason I can see for announcing this is to get more attention. Well you got it. Now don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Bye!

[Elixir]

what a dumb thread.



the 360 is sweet

then you have a new nintendo and whatever that will bring


and on top of it all the ps3 is set to astonish everyone or fall flat on its face.



who cares about pc gaming?

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by Gene Clean

Stability, speed, a wider array of supported hardware, free software, freedom to modify and adapt the software any way you wish and need.

These are good enough reasons to consider and use Linux.

Um, if you want to adapt and modify software you need to have some knowledge of the things I brought up. In addition, all of the things you brought up, tit-for-tat, further prove my point: one way or another, there's a lot of research you have to do in order to get GNU/Linux to do what you want.

Lastly, it's obvious you're a Linux dedicate. I also think Linux is great, but you've been drinking too much kool-aid to honestly believe that it's a less or equally demanding process to get a desktop Linux distro all together than it is to do the same for a commercial desktop OS. Granted, with Windows you don't have much say in the matter, Windows drivers tend to be more mature and the chances that you're going to be scurrying around in xserver's init and config files are nil. (Yes, I know you can't access these files).

My message isn't a negative one, it's just one of caution. If you're installing GNU/Linux into your desktop, be prepared for some trench warfare.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
[B]Um, if you want to adapt and modify software you need to have some knowledge of the things I brought up. In addition, all of the things you brought up, tit-for-tat, further prove my point: one way or another, there's a lot of research you have to do in order to get GNU/Linux to do what you want.

Even so, that's only if you want to change the software. There are other, more immediate positive things about trying Linux, like its stability, speed and wealth of free software. You seem to have ignored those.


Lastly, it's obvious you're a Linux dedicate.

No, it's just obvious you've no idea what you're talking about.


I also think Linux is great, but you've been drinking too much kool-aid to honestly believe that it's a less or equally demanding process to get a desktop Linux distro all together than it is to do the same for a commercial desktop OS.

There are commercial Linux distro's that are on par with, or even surpass other commercial desktops OSs. I think you've been drinking too much commercial desktop OS kool-aid to be aware of these things.


Granted, with Windows you don't have much say in the matter, Windows drivers tend to be more mature and the chances that you're going to be scurrying around in xserver's init and config files are nil. (Yes, I know you can't access these files).

Xserver drivers are both released either by nVidia or ATi. That says nothing about Linux, except that nVidia and ATi have crappy drivers if they make you 'scurr' around in Xorg config files.

My message isn't a negative one, it's just one of caution. If you're installing GNU/Linux into your desktop, be prepared for some trench warfare.

Uh-huh.

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by Gene Clean

No, it's just obvious you've no idea what you're talking about.
I wasn't going to respond to you anymore, since there didn't seem to be a point, but now you're just being a jerk and I feel like I have to defend myself against your jerkdom.

Of course you can believe whatever you want, but the truth is that one of the things I do is develop Linux based embedded hardware, and I do it on Linux based desktops. So imagine how foolish you sound to me. I get the feeling that you're just another kid who thinks he knows something because he uses Linux on his desktop. This is how you sound: "Linux is the best thing ever. Everyone should use for everything because it's easier to setup, use, and the apps are free, not to mention extensible and configurable."

Clearly, if this were unequivocally true, more people would use Linux on the desktop. Guess what. . . that's not the case, and it's not because of Microsoft's evil empire.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
[B]I wasn't going to respond to you anymore, since there didn't seem to be a point, but now you're just being a jerk and I feel like I have to defend myself against your jerkdom.

That's awesome.

Of course you can believe whatever you want, but the truth is that one of the things I do is develop Linux based embedded hardware, and I do it on Linux based desktops. So imagine how foolish you sound to me.

You develop Linux-based embedded hardware, and you're claiming that to install SuSE you need knowledge of the C programming language?

I'm sorry but, that's just funny.

I get the feeling that you're just another kid who thinks he knows something because he uses Linux on his desktop.

I, in fact, use OS X, with Linux being a secondary OS due to its lack of Photoshop which I need for my work. Your point?

This is how you sound: "Linux is the best thing ever. Everyone should use for everything because it's easier to setup, use, and the apps are free, not to mention extensible and configurable."

If I remember correctly, you came here and started talking rubbish about needing knowledge of C to install SuSE. When I corrected you on that, instead of saying "No, you don't need it to install SuSE - you need it if you want to develop Linux apps", you continued on and on how in order to use Linux (even the easiest of them, SuSE, which you, as a "developer" have chosen to install for some reason) you need to know C. Then you modified that to knowing about Xorg config files and now you're just being down-right offensive.

Clearly, if this were unequivocally true, more people would use Linux on the desktop. Guess what. . . that's not the case, and it's not because of Microsoft's evil empire.

There are many factor why Linux isn't used by 50% of the market; user-friendlines being the last of them. Though you have kind of chosen to ignore (again) other arguments I laid down: in this case, stability, speed, wealth of free applications.

Placebo is moving to Linux not because I convinced him to, as you want to claim indirectly, but because he has come to the conclusion that it's a viable alternative to Windows and OS X. If you want to counter that, talk to Placebo, the living proof that your theory is flawed.

And I have to wonder why you had to scurr around in Xserver (Xorg) config files if you installed SuSE: I am pretty certain that SuSE includes non-free, proprietary nVidia or ATi drivers. And that it offers updates to them through YOU, Yast Online Update.

I'm sure that C came in pretty handy when you edited a text file though.

[hmurchison]

I've been on these boards long enough to see this cycle.


Young upstart hits the boards excited about Macs.
Young upstart settles in after a while begins to dabble
Young upstart wants to play games with his buddies.
Young upstart leaves the fold

Best of luck to you. Apple is likely overpriced because if you gaming and tinkering around your time isn't worth as much money as the person that gets say an hour of computer time a day and can't be putzing around with Linux or Gaming. Thus a Mac isn't overpriced but rather cheap because I'm not constantly fixing stuff.

However you only live once....get your game on.

[Splinemodel]

Gene Clean:

As far as Placebo, I don't really care what he does. I just wanted to give him a fair warning that he might get [very] frustrated. I'm not sure why you are so driven to make this into a personal vendetta, although I already mentioned my hypothesis. Right now it's clear to me that you're either thick as a brick or are just being tirelessly quarlesome, and I don't like wasting my time with these kinds of people. I'm happy to let you get the last word in, since at this point that alone seems to be the only thing you really are shooting for. Unfortunately, that means I won't be around to walk you through each sentence of mine that you quote tit-for-tat. You'll have to reference each post to the last on your own. My sincerest apologies.

[a_greer]

Originally posted by hmurchison
I've been on these boards long enough to see this cycle.


Young upstart hits the boards excited about Macs.
Young upstart settles in after a while begins to dabble
Young upstart wants to play games with his buddies.
Young upstart leaves the fold

Best of luck to you. Apple is likely overpriced because if you gaming and tinkering around your time isn't worth as much money as the person that gets say an hour of computer time a day and can't be putzing around with Linux or Gaming. Thus a Mac isn't overpriced but rather cheap because I'm not constantly fixing stuff.

However you only live once....get your game on. If all you want windows for is games then buy an xBox 360, wireless controllers, and some games and grab a 50 inch RP HDTV and have a better gaming experiance for years...no $300+ GPU upgrades every 6 months just to play games.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
Gene Clean

That's fine, and I respect your opinion of him possibly being frustrated because not everything is click-and-run (although this is debatable), but I found it odd that you told him he needs to learn the C programming language just to install SuSE.

I understand, Linux is not for everyone - no OS is. I also understand Linux has shortcomings, even more so than Windows or OS X in some areas, but your statement(s) about C and Unix shells are, in my view, just not valid.

I too apologize if I was a bit harsh, and you thought this was a vendetta or smth of that sort - it isn't, and I don't really care to make it one either. It's a dicussion, and as any other discussion, it can get heated sometime.

[rok]

Originally posted by a_greer
If all you want windows for is games then buy an xBox 360, wireless controllers, and some games and grab a 50 inch RP HDTV and have a better gaming experiance for years...no $300+ GPU upgrades every 6 months just to play games.

now you're talkin'! a whoppin' huge HDTV will go obsolete far more slowly than a computer (Mac OR Windows PC) of the same cost.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by a_greer
If all you want windows for is games then buy an xBox 360, wireless controllers, and some games and grab a 50 inch RP HDTV and have a better gaming experiance for years...no $300+ GPU upgrades every 6 months just to play games.

Ding, ding, ding... the man wins a prize.

Nick

[Protostar]

First off, about Linux. I use Ubuntu Linux. I tried Suse 10.0 and everything was configured correctly. The only thing lacking was wireless support and that was fixed via ndiswrapper. Hell, even Windows couldn't get my screen resolution right, but Suse got it correct right off the bat. Installing things was a breeze via Yast. I even mangaged to compile my own kernel!! I don't know any programming languages (Yet), yet I managed to do all of that. So I don't know what all this talk is about you having to know C in order to set up your system correctly. Sounds like FUD to me. The main reason I left Suse, was because it was just to slow. Ubuntu is super fast and installing applications is a breeze via apt-get (CL) or Synaptic (GUI). Its infinitely customizable and IMO is the best OS in existence (even better than OS X. Prepares flame shield :lol: ). I'll admit, everything might not work off the bat, and you might have to configure somethings manually. But there is nothing wrong with this, as you become more knowledgable about the OS in the process. That said, if you want a totally n00b distro go with Suse, but if you don't mind editing a few config files then go with Ubuntu.


Second about the console remarks. I grow tired of all the Mac people spreading FUD about how "PC gaming is dead" and telling people to get a console and such. Sure, consoles have their place and there are some fun and enjoyable games on the console, but nothing beats a mouse and keyboard, ESPECIALLY when it comes to FPS and RTS games. Can't play Unreal Tournament on a console. Can't play Star Wars: Empire at War on a console. The list of awesome games you can't play on a console spirals on.

[Relic]

Originally posted by Protostar
Second about the console remarks. I grow tired of all the Mac people spreading FUD about how "PC gaming is dead" and telling people to get a console and such. Sure, consoles have their place and there are some fun and enjoyable games on the console, but nothing beats a mouse and keyboard, ESPECIALLY when it comes to FPS and RTS games. Can't play Unreal Tournament on a console. Can't play Star Wars: Empire at War on a console. The list of awesome games you can't play on a console spirals on.

Thank you, I'm also tired of people suggesting a console. I don't care how great the graphics on them get nothing beats a mouse and a keyboard so lets stop. There is a reason why gamers pay up the butt for the best PC rigs and it's ridiculous/naive to think that they are/I'm stupid for not being satisfied with a 400 dollar console. WE KNOW WHAT WE WANT.

[Placebo]

PC gaming isn't dead. Far from it. It's perhaps even going to go the opposite way as the average hardware spec improves.

I'm not switching to the PC solely for gaming. There are a lot of other things, including Windows-only apps such as 3DS Max, hardware costs and variety.

Let's put it this way: I'm in the market for a new computer, and right now, there's neither an Intel Mac that is my class of computer, or any prospect of running Windows on a Mac.

I'm not a dirty little attention whore who wants to be all badass by switching to PC. I'm just posting this because I was interested in hearing what people had to add, from Linux distro preference (although that sure went spectacularly :rolleyes:) to whether I should be doing this at all..

I'll continue posting here for a while, I'll let you know.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by Protostar
Second about the console remarks. I grow tired of all the Mac people spreading FUD about how "PC gaming is dead" and telling people to get a console and such. Sure, consoles have their place and there are some fun and enjoyable games on the console, but nothing beats a mouse and keyboard, ESPECIALLY when it comes to FPS and RTS games. Can't play Unreal Tournament on a console. Can't play Star Wars: Empire at War on a console. The list of awesome games you can't play on a console spirals on.

It isn't FUD. It is fact. Depending upon the numbers you use, PC gaming fell or at a minimum held even. Meanwhile we are talking about PC game sales in the 1 billion dollar range while the console numbers are literally 10-11 times that.

The point is you can play Unreal Tournament on a console. You can play COD2 and so forth. I prefer a mouse and keyboard as well but that doesn't mean the 13 year old sitting in front of the 50-60 inch HDTV won't be able to get by with the console controller. They easily can.

Originally posted by Relic
Thank you, I'm also tired of people suggesting a console. I don't care how great the graphics on them get nothing beats a mouse and a keyboard so lets stop. There is a reason why gamers pay up the butt for the best PC rigs and it's ridiculous/naive to think that they are/I'm stupid for not being satisfied with a 400 dollar console. WE KNOW WHAT WE WANT.

Sorry, all you are doing is showing your gaming age, no matter what your physical age happens to be. You're like the guy arguing that all true performance cars must have carburators or some such nonsense.

Nick

[Protostar]

It isn't FUD. It is fact. Depending upon the numbers you use, PC gaming fell or at a minimum held even. Meanwhile we are talking about PC game sales in the 1 billion dollar range while the console numbers are literally 10-11 times that.

It is FUD. The best and most quality games will ALWAYS be released on the PC as it is the easiet platform to develop for. You don't have to pay licensing fees to anyone, as it is an open platform. Like I said before, high quality titles like F.E.A.R and Far Cry will always be released on the PC first and then ported to the consoled later (if at all).

The point is you can play Unreal Tournament on a console. You can play COD2 and so forth. I prefer a mouse and keyboard as well but that doesn't mean the 13 year old sitting in front of the 50-60 inch HDTV won't be able to get by with the console controller. They easily can.

That's blasphemy. I played the Unreal Tournament PS2 port, and it blew goat dick. Visuals were horrible and the controller was equally horrible for gameplay. I don't just want to "get by". When I play a game, I want to enjoy it. And I can't enjoy a game by just "getting by". Plus I have no use for such a large television as everything on TV is trash, and not worth paying for. That money could be used to build a high end PC.

[a_greer]

Originally posted by trumptman
Sorry, all you are doing is showing your gaming age, no matter what your physical age happens to be. You're like the guy arguing that all true performance cars must have carburators or some such nonsense.

Nick I must say, the keyboard and mouse is great; but the gamepad is a tradeoff I am willing to take for a 50 inch HDTV, really comfortable sofa, and 5.1 surround in place of a ~20 inch display, and computer speakers (surround or stereo) Not to mention the fact that I already spend enouch of my life in an office chair sitting upright...

[trumptman]

Originally posted by Protostar
It is FUD. The best and most quality games will ALWAYS be released on the PC as it is the easiet platform to develop for.

Are you high? You are seriously claiming that developing for whatever everyone has out there, including multiple processors, videocards, etc. Is easier that developing for a standardized platform.

You don't have to pay licensing fees to anyone, as it is an open platform.

Open platform? DirectX via Visual Studio and associated items are hardly open or free.

. Like I said before, high quality titles like F.E.A.R and Far Cry will always be released on the PC first and then ported to the consoled later (if at all).

You mistake a weakness for an advantage. When you are trying to gain a foothold it is easier to go verticle and jump into a smaller market to generate awareness and buzz. The PC market is the small pond where a company can still survive while only being able to swim in the wading pool. It is akin to why every new television network has nothing but teen or black television shows. You capture a niche and you can try to move on to larger and greener pastures.

That's blasphemy. I played the Unreal Tournament PS2 port, and it blew goat dick.

Yes and the hardware you played it on cost less than the videocard for your PC.

Visuals were horrible and the controller was equally horrible for gameplay.

McDonalds doesn't sell the best hamburger. They just create a consistant expectation and meet it for a reasonable price pretty much everywhere. Consoles do the same thing for games.

I don't just want to "get by".

The cost of just "getting by" is getting to large for PC gaming. You mention F.E.A.R for example. The Gamespy review notes that many machines couldn't run it at 1024x768 and their test machines had Nvidia 7800's with 2 gigs of RAM just to "get by" on it.

Most people I know don't want to spend $500+ on a videocard just to "get by" in PC gaming.

When I play a game, I want to enjoy it.

What is enjoyable about repeatedly upgrading and dropping hundreds of dollars on hardware upgrades in order to play $50 games with $30-40 expansion packs?

And I can't enjoy a game by just "getting by".

Yeah, well enjoy living in a cardboard box with your PC.

Plus I have no use for such a large television as everything on TV is trash, and not worth paying for. That money could be used to build a high end PC.

So enjoy it on a regular television. The amount of money you demand just to get by reflects some seriously misplaced priorities.

Nick

[hmurchison]

I'm always amazed that people want to "switch" in the first place. I will run both platforms simultaneously for the forseeable future. Why would I want to limit myself? I can easily build a capable PC desktop system to augment whatever Mac systems I have on hand. It's a choice I don't have to make because computers are affordable enough to have both.

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by Placebo
I'm not switching to the PC solely for gaming. There are a lot of other things, including Windows-only apps such as 3DS Max, hardware costs and variety.

3DSMAX is JUNK. Getting to know 3D Studio Max is a waste of time, since it has a miserable rendering engine, underwhelming modeling tools, and an accordingly dwindling user-base.

I would recommend the one-two punch of FormZ and Electric Image, but they run much better on the mac (They run better on my 3 year old Powerbook G4 than on my p4 3.4GHz with 2G). If yout can't pull those, then Cinema 4D is certainly better than 3DSMAX, and it is very much loved by its ever-growing user base. There's no reason to limit yourself to a polygon-only modeling toolset (3DSMAX, Lightwave) when the whole 3D universe is moving towards NURBS. All three of the programs I mentioned have excellent NURBs and Polygonal toolsets.

[Placebo]

Well, 3DS Max is the de facto 3D modeling and animation app in the game development industry. However, I don't care about 3DS Max that much, I just want to be able to use the Unreal editor for map creation and the like.

[Shadow Slayer 26]

http://www.alias.com/


One of the best programs out there. Maya is what you would probably want.

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by Placebo
Well, 3DS Max is the de facto 3D modeling and animation app in the game development industry.

I find that hard to believe. The AutoCAD/3DSMAX DXF format is crappy (but perhaps venerable), and if it's a de-facto standard at all then it's good that almost every 3D app on earth can export to it.

SoftImage used to be the "de-facto" standard for video game 3D. Then it fell off the map. I'd argue that 3DSMAX is currently falling off the map -- or has already fallen -- given its absence in higher-end 3D over the past several years. Video game 3D tend to trail production 3d by a few years, but the PS3 can do a lot with on-the-fly subdivisions and NURBS, so you'll probably want to use the latest-and-greatest since it with be the norm by the time you might be thinking about getting into that industry.


Originally posted by Shadow Slayer 26
http://www.alias.com/
One of the best programs out there. Maya is what you would probably want.
Maya is great for subdivisions and animation of subdivisions. But There are a lot of new subdivision-based 3D programs that are decent and a lot cheaper. Silo is a name that comes to mind.

[Placebo]

I found Modo very natural for modeling, Maya kinda intimidated me and had a distracting and sprawling interface (I like modo's interface for purely aesthetic reasons if nothing else). I want to get into mapping and modeling when Unreal Tournament 2007 comes out.

[gregmightdothat]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
...when the whole 3D universe is moving towards NURBS. All three of the programs I mentioned have excellent NURBs and Polygonal toolsets.

:lol:

No one is moving to NURBs :P

NURBs were semi-useful in the mid 90's until people realized polygons with a smoothing function and/or subdivisions offered all the benefits with none of the many, many, infuriating drawbacks.

Unless you have extreme patience, NURBs look totally cheesy and stupid.

I only use NURBs for small, linear portions (like a leg or something...) which I convert to poly's before merging in with the rest of the model. Even then it usually has to be tweaked a bit to deform correctly.

[a_greer]

Originally posted by Placebo
Well, 3DS Max is the de facto 3D modeling and animation app in the game development industry. And windows is the defacto OS, and EA is the biggest company, that tell you ANYTHING about the moddern game industry?

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by gregmightdothat
:lol:

No one is moving to NURBs :P

I only use NURBs for small, linear portions (like a leg or something...) which I convert to poly's before merging in with the rest of the model. Even then it usually has to be tweaked a bit to deform correctly.

You are wrong. In the entertainment space, people may have avoided the use of NURBS and other parametric modeling techniques, but in the actual design space -- which probably accounts for most of the 3D CAD that's ever done -- parametric curves are a big deal. They offer greater precision and tend to be much better for producing cross sections or any type of 2D drawing.

If you consider that a lot of things never need to be deformed in an animator, even for the entertainment space, there is plenty of room for NURBS and other forms of parametric modeling. Given also the fact that CPU speed keeps advancing at a faster rate than memory size/speed, there's plenty of potential for NURBS to replace subdivisions down the line, especially as we continue to increase display resolution at exponential rates.

Unless you have extreme patience, NURBs look totally cheesy and stupid.
For biological stuff, I might agree with you. But as is the theme of this whole response, the opposite is true for mechanical items. It takes a long time to do mechanical stuff with subdivisions, it often looks odd, and you can't go to production with it since it's a bloated file that doesn't scale or work well with CNC.

[gregmightdothat]

Originally posted by Splinemodel

If you consider that a lot of things never need to be deformed in an animator, even for the entertainment space, there is plenty of room for NURBS and other forms of parametric modeling. Given also the fact that CPU speed keeps advancing at a faster rate than memory size/speed, there's plenty of potential for NURBS to replace subdivisions down the line, especially as we continue to increase display resolution at exponential rates.

[/B]

Why would an increase in CPU speed lead away from sub-d's to NURBs? NURBs are much easier to process. That's why they were so popular in the 90's, they were generally the easiest/quickest way to get curved surfaces. It's going the other way.


If you consider
For biological stuff, I might agree with you. But as is the theme of this whole response, the opposite is true for mechanical items. It takes a long time to do mechanical stuff with subdivisions, it often looks odd, and you can't go to production with it since it's a bloated file that doesn't scale or work well with CNC.

For mechanical stuff, both NURBs and sub-d's are inappropriate. Straight-up polygon modeling will suffice in 3DS Max/Maya, but you're much better off with a dedicated 3D CAD program like Solidworks/AutoCAD.

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by gregmightdothat
Why would an increase in CPU speed lead away from sub-d's to NURBs? NURBs are much easier to process. That's why they were so popular in the 90's, they were generally the easiest/quickest way to get curved surfaces. It's going the other way.

For mechanical stuff, both NURBs and sub-d's are inappropriate. Straight-up polygon modeling will suffice in 3DS Max/Maya, but you're much better off with a dedicated 3D CAD program like Solidworks/AutoCAD.

As may be obvious from my screenname, I know a lot about the math behind these things. A NURBS solid take more operations to compute than an "equivalent" polygon, but are much more precise, so they require much, much less memory than an equivalent subdivision solid.

Moving on, one of the things I do is design plastic parts. Since the output formats needed to do rapid prototypes or to go to production with tend to be parametrics-based, having a non-parametric model is not acceptable.

SolidWorks is fine since it has a good parametric toolset, but a thorough app like FormZ is also good enough for most injection molded designs (and a lot cheaper). AutoCAD is primarily a 2D program, has abysmal support for parametrics, and it just won't cut it. It has its uses, but it's not really in the same market as SolidWorks or ProE, which are more than just 3D modelers.

[gregmightdothat]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
As may be obvious from my screenname, I know a lot about the math behind these things. A NURBS solid take more operations to compute than an "equivalent" polygon, but are much more precise, so they require much, much less memory than an equivalent subdivision solid.

Moving on, one of the things I do is design plastic parts. Since the output formats needed to do rapid prototypes or to go to production with tend to be parametrics-based, having a non-parametric model is not acceptable.

SolidWorks is fine since it has a good parametric toolset, but a thorough app like FormZ is also good enough for most injection molded designs (and a lot cheaper). AutoCAD is primarily a 2D program, has abysmal support for parametrics, and it just won't cut it. It has its uses, but it's not really in the same market as SolidWorks or ProE, which are more than just 3D modelers.

I'm sure you do know a lot of the math behind these things. But you still seem to be mixing things up.

First off, you're using polygons and sub-d's interchangeably.

Secondly, assuming that you're only working at Level-0, the algorithm for smoothing both sub-d's and NURBs are the same. In fact, when converting a NURB to a sub-d, you're just taking the same points and changing how you edit them, because the calculation is the same.

The only difference is that sub-d's, of course, can have n-gons.

Anyway, since you're working with CNC machines and probably 3D printers and the like, I'm assuming that they have specific file formats which (reasonably) can't handle sub-d's, and as such, on export have to tesselate these. In this case NURBs are more lightweight and more accurate, which is where I think you're coming from.

That said, smoothed polys and sub-d's are just as accurate on the computer and are based on the same algorithms.

In response to your original comment, that "everyone was moving to NURBs," my point still holds: no one is moving to NURBs. People that already use it because it's the right tool for the job (Ie, you), still will, because it only makes sense until something better comes along. But NURBs are pretty much only the right tool for your specific job.

[Splinemodel]

I think I am confusing you by using "NURBS" and "parametrics" interchangably. Parametrics are often (usually) converted to NURBS within the modeler, and my original intent was to de-complicate matters by using one term. On second thought I sould have used "parametric curves" as that term. My beef with subdivisions is that a lot of polygon-only programs will use a subdivision feature to try to make up for their lack of a real, parametric toolset. In this sense, I think you'll understand where I coming from.

And yes, the whole world is moving towards parametrics. Good sub-d tools all have parametric controls for each control vertex, but at that level you may as well take the time to do it all with your own spline patches.

[skatman]

Originally posted by a_greer
If all you want windows for is games then buy an xBox 360, wireless controllers, and some games and grab a 50 inch RP HDTV and have a better gaming experiance for years...no $300+ GPU upgrades every 6 months just to play games.

Yeah, you'll be left with an outdated GPU from day one...

[TenoBell]

now you're talkin'! a whoppin' huge HDTV will go obsolete far more slowly than a computer (Mac OR Windows PC) of the same cost.


Actually many specs around HDTV are not firmly established yet. So most televisions sold today will not work with future technologies.

As for switching.

I myself don't get to play many video games as I have too much work to do. I'll go over to a buddy's house and play for a few hours, but man I couldn't have one of those things myself. Too much time wasted.

I know too many people who spend too much time fixing their computers or complaining that something on their computer does not work.

Mac's are not 100% perfect at all. But I spend far more time being productive than complaining or fixing.

I suppose over priced can mean different things to different people. I don't mind paying more to be more productive. Rather than pay less to spend more time fixing and complaining.

[mynamehere]

This may be a bit late, but since you're switching from a PowerMac, I think you'll enjoy this case.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/11-164-060-01.JPG

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811164060

Look familiar at all? Maybe? Just a little?

[gregmightdothat]

Originally posted by mynamehere
This may be a bit late, but since you're switching from a PowerMac, I think you'll enjoy this case.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/11-164-060-01.JPG

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811164060

Look familiar at all? Maybe? Just a little?

That is, without a doubt, the ugliest thing I have ever seen.

[mynamehere]

Originally posted by gregmightdothat
That is, without a doubt, the ugliest thing I have ever seen.

Yes, yes it is. Every time I go look at cases, I wonder how people can spend money on half of them.

[a_greer]

Originally posted by mynamehere
This may be a bit late, but since you're switching from a PowerMac, I think you'll enjoy this case.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/11-164-060-01.JPG

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811164060

Look familiar at all? Maybe? Just a little? If you brought that thing to a lan party, you would get your ass kicked, half the guys would think it was a mac, the other half would misstake it for a suitcase nuke

[Marvin]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
And yes, the whole world is moving towards parametrics. Good sub-d tools all have parametric controls for each control vertex, but at that level you may as well take the time to do it all with your own spline patches.

I agree with gregmightdothat. Maybe NURBs are more useful in CAD but most of the world is using Sub-D. Sub-D came after NURBs because NURBs couldn't do what people needed.

When you add detail to a NURBs surface, you have to add loops all the way round the model in order for the surface to maintain it's uniform parametric space. With Sub-D, you can project UV parameters so it's far more flexible.

Modelling stuff artistically is easier with sub-d, modelling stuff technically is easier with NURBs. NURBs are for CAD and sub-d is for everything else.

That's not to say you can't use both for doing anything and I've seen amazing organic NURBs models on CGTalk and amazing sub-d architecture but still sub-d is more popular.

As for software, I haven't used 3ds max but its VRay renderer is supposed to one of the best raytracers on the market. However, Mental Ray that is bundled with Maya gets a really good reputation too. Plus, you can export to Renderman from a lot of software and you now get prman on the Mac.

I don't like Maya's modelling so I use the free Blender software for modelling/animating (it models like Modo - also available for Mac) or animate in Maya or export to Renderman direct. All this can be done on the Mac.

Then you have Final Cut Pro, Shake, AE, Combustion, Photoshop, Macromedia Studio all on the Mac.

On top of that, I have a solid, stable, easy to use OS that lets me do programming without any hassle. I have the best of the commercial world and open source world.

I nearly switched to Linux once before OS X came out because pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory blew me away but I found that I couldn't do anything productive with it as there weren't any decent software packages. GIMP is not as good as Photoshop. Try going to a website to get good commercial Linux software and it's very difficult. Device drivers are hard to find too.

In that respect, Linux is worse than Windows. Windows is still bad though because the system is badly layed out. The memory handling is awful. One of my relatives bought a £900 PC with XP and you can't log in as two users at once or the system goes unbearably slow and they keep getting errors popping up all the time.

OK so Mac hardware is a bit more pricey, well so is a Sony Vaio but who is complaining about them? As for the gaming angle, I have a PS2 and I love it. For my home desktop, I use a Mac Mini and it does me fine. I use a quad G5 at work though.

I agree that a keyboard and mouse are better for some games. I've just lost touch with gaming really now that I'm all grown up :). Burnout on the PS2 and some other titles are all I need. I've often found PC games to be buggy as they have to run on a huge number of machine configs. You have to be careful modding your own machine too. I've seen PC users fry their whole machine simply by installing a PCI card. It can be an expensive venture.

Having said that, if I was a hardcore gamer, I'd probably try out the custom PC thing too. But with the new consoles, I don't think you'd be able to get nearly the same power/price ratio with a custom PC. Heck the graphics card alone would cost more than the console. Also, I think you get keyboard and mice for consoles - it could do with being more supported though.

Cheap Mac + cheap console = good desktop + good gaming
Custom PC = bad desktop + good gaming

[sunilraman]

This thread is so funny for sooo many reasons. But not Placebo.... noo......... going over to the dark side, you are........! PS. AMD DualCore for you?? Why singlecore? ;)

[Placebo]

Originally posted by sunilraman
This thread is so funny for sooo many reasons. But not Placebo.... noo......... going over to the dark side, you are........! PS. AMD DualCore for you?? Why singlecore? ;)
I think I might try to survive without a computer until June for the AM2 chipset. Then I'll get a dualcore. But I don't want a spankin' new processor with a socket that will be outdated in a month or two.

[Zenga]

Originally posted by Placebo
I've decided that I'm too much of a hardware/games freak to keep on living with an overpriced system and an undersupported (game-wise) operating system. So I'll be switching to Linux for my desktop putzing-around operating system and Windows my gaming/productivity OS.

I might try to run Mac OS X on another partition, but I'm not going to put a lot of effort into it if it's going to get broken with every software update.

So long.

HASTA LA "VISTA" BABY!!!!

:lol:

[blade]

Over the weekend I convinced my girlfriend to switch to Mac!! :). I took my machine and worked at her place (me: webdesigner) and while she was SUFFERING with her windows machine with pop ups that constantly popped with no browser even running, her machine freezing up twice in two days and all the frustrating virus attacks, I got a great deal of work done and all my hair remaind attached to my head.

She was amazed that I was just doing my work and didn't deal with any frustrations like she had to. I also showed her that I run Windows 2000 Pro (Virtual PC version) to test my websites for Windows compatibility, as well as working in UNIX if I needed to (she also works with UNIX). I further showed her all the extra little things that are built into the Mac OS - such as video editing program, webcam software, iTunes, bluetooth and all those little things you get for free; with Windows you get pretty much nothing but Windows.

She was so impressed that she is switching with her next machine in a month or so :).

I should be an Apple sales man, this is the second hardcore PC user I have conviced to switch :))))).

[Placebo]

Well, that's what they get for not protecting themselves. If you're smart, there isn't much danger in the Windows world. Firefox is a good start.

Looks like your girlfriend, frustrated with Windows insecurity, switched right at the dawn of Mac viruses... :lol:

[Placebo]

Originally posted by gregmightdothat
That is, without a doubt, the ugliest thing I have ever seen.
The intakes on the side look pretty stupid. They're just a few points from nailing it though.

[mynamehere]

Originally posted by Placebo
Well, that's what they get for not protecting themselves. If you're smart, there isn't much danger in the Windows world. Firefox is a good start.

Looks like your girlfriend, frustrated with Windows insecurity, switched right at the dawn of Mac viruses... :lol:
I'm not sure whether I should laugh at you or suggest professional help.

An example of how shitty Windows security is: In late December my WinXP-Pro laptop did what it does best: crash. I reinstalled the OS, put up the Windows firewall, and went online to get the antivirus program and updates and whatnot. 20 minutes later, I notice strange files in the c: \ drive. Yep, I managed to get a virus in under 20 minutes, on DIAL-UP and with a FIREWALL. Welcome to the mess that is Winblows. Have fun in hell.

[Gene Clean]

Have fun in hell.

Well, as long as you think you're in Heaven... :D

[sunilraman]

I use WinXP-64bit and Avast! antivirus. Best Windoze experience so far. WinXP-32bit has bollocks for a code base, if you can, use 64bit WinXP and AMD chips for chrissakes. I only use WinXP32bit for playing NeedForSpeed:MostWanted (pirated version :devil: ). Avast antivirus is free, fast, slick, and not full of total bollocks (my favourite word today) like Symantec and the like. http://www.avast.com/ :smokey:

edit: if you have legit software you won't need winxp32bit at all, winxp64bit compatibility layer is really quite good, as long as you stick to major hardware manufacturers they have 64bit drivers. video drivers (ati, nvidia) not a problem at all...

[blade]

No, she is frustrated with the Windows unproductivity. Insecurity is only a tiny issue of the thousands.

Yeah, I really wonder when the Macs will start to see considerable virus attacks. Been working with Macs for over 13 years now, only seen one virus and one macro virus in my MS-Word and I never had virus protection installed.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by blade
No, she is frustrated with the Windows unproductivity. Insecurity is only a tiny issue of the thousands.

Yeah, I really wonder when the Macs will start to see considerable virus attacks. Been working with Macs for over 13 years now, only seen one virus and one macro virus in my MS-Word and I never had virus protection installed.
SURE, YOU'VE NEVER GOTTEN A MAC VIRUS, but that doesn't set precedent for you never getting a Mac virus, especially with a few working concepts, if not actual viruses, coming out last week.

[Gene Clean]

And I'm really puzzled as to how you know you never got a virus, if you never had any type of virus-protection installed to check for viruses.

Maybe you know that you never got any virus, but... a lot of Windows users don't know either.

[Placebo]

There really haven't been any viruses for Mac OS X until now.

[Gene Clean]

But OS X hasn't existed for 13 years, which is the timeframe he specified when he said he's been using Macs and never got any viruses (apart from some Macro thing which he knew was a virus without an anti-virus installed.)

I'm pretty sure there were more viruses than just a macro virus for OS9 out there. But I digress...

[blade]

Originally posted by Placebo
SURE, YOU'VE NEVER GOTTEN A MAC VIRUS, but that doesn't set precedent for you never getting a Mac virus, especially with a few working concepts, if not actual viruses, coming out last week.

If you reread my previous messages, I said I got two viruses in 13 years. One was a real virus that I caught on time and didn't do any harm (this was back about 10 years ago), the other was one of the MS-Word macro viruses that converted .doc files to template files. These were the two occurences in my 13 years of having a Mac. My girlfriend's virus blocker on her PC last weekend reported to block an average of five viruses a day, and this was just two days I saw vs. my 13 years. She also had to reboot twice because her machine locked up on her (Windows 2000). And even if viruses will start to come in at any time, I still saved 13 years of not having nearly any and saved money for not paying for virus blocker/scanner programs.

Again, viruses are a very small concern of why I have (and still sticking with) a Mac. I like a dependable machine with a wide range of possibilities. When I need to test something in Windows I just start up my Virtual PC Windows 2000 Pro right on my Mac desktop and test all my websites (I'm a web designer) before I hand them over to my customers. I also like the fact that you can just start a terminal window and get to the core (UNIX) system and fix problems if you run into one.

Can't beat to have a Mac, a UNIX and a Windows machine for the price of one (and a half, Virtual PC still costs you a few bucks), but when you also consider networking these, the maintenenace and constant upgrading costs for three machines with software, this is also considerable time, money and energy savings for anyone.

[blade]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
But OS X hasn't existed for 13 years, which is the timeframe he specified when he said he's been using Macs and never got any viruses (apart from some Macro thing which he knew was a virus without an anti-virus installed.)

I'm pretty sure there were more viruses than just a macro virus for OS9 out there. But I digress...

Because about once a year I download a demo version of a virus scanner and run it on my machine. The two occurances of viruses I had also had clear signs of being there, the one virus I had did something with the floppies if I recall correctly it didn't allow to copy files on them or something of that nature. Again, I downloaded a demo version of Norton and cleaned it. These demo versions expire in about 30 days but I never ever paid for a full version and, again, never again caught any viruses with the demo versions.

Also, I never heard of anyone else having a virus in any of the previous versions. I also know several people with Macs and they also never had virus issues.

And again, we are comparing this with the PC world where viruses are pouring in daily, so I believe arguing about this subject is pointless.

[Darth_Apple]

I guess this is a non issue now since apple released the new updates...

Apple on Wednesday released Security Update 2006-001, available for download through Software Update system preference pane and from Apple’s Downloads Web page. The update addresses a recently reported exploit that left Safari users vulnerable to malicious shell scripts; corrects a vulnerability to Apple’s Mail software and also changes the way iChat handles file transfers to help prevent the “Leap-A” malware.

This security update closes the Safari hole, and also provides safety for iChat and Mail users by providing the applications with more information for those applications’ download validation.

[a_greer]

People here dont seem to understand that viruses are the least of windows problem.

The problems are worms and trojens

Worms: what you get when connected to a network but doing nothing, just being in the wrong broadcast domain at the wrong time with inadiquite protection, thus why a SO/HO router is a must now-a-days for windows ussers on broadband, it handles the WAN broadcasts and doesnt pass them along to the PCs on the internal LAN subnetwork(s) these are largly used to create botnets for spamming or DDOS attacs

Trojens: malicious code that becomes resedent by fooling the user about what it really does, some call it social engineering. Lately it has become cool to call the great majority of these things "adware" or "spyware" because it is used to generate ads and feedback to the server about your computer use patterns.

the problem is 51% OS 49% userbase

I have used windows ME, 2k pro and XP virus free for ~7 years.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Please stop talking nonsense. Installing SuSE requires knowledge of C programming?! Since when does popping a DVD in the drive and clicking OK need Unix shells?

Installing SuSE has got to be the easiest installation of an OS ever. You just click OK damn it. How much easier does it have to get? Read your mind?

Here's (http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=464&slide=3) a shot by shot installation of SuSE. Now be a good sport and tell us where do you see the requirement for Unix shells and C programming there. Having installed and ran Mandriva Linux without any knowledge of C, and not once having ran a shell script (though I do use Terminal regularly, mostly for stuff that is unnecessary/could be done in a GUI, and almost all of the rest is from an instruction manual, step-by-step. Easy.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
It's foolish to assume that everything you'll want to do in Linux will be available from something as pleasant as YAST. Beyond that, I've installed Linux on quite a few machines, and NEVER has there been a time where it was incident free. I'm also going to pan GNU in general for cultivating a ridiculous policy in nomenclature. Sometimes, it's easy to find what you want. Other times, it's a fuckng nightmare, since the names of gnu apps are often extremely cryptic and truncated. I'll gladly type in four more characters when I want to run the damn thing if it helps me remember what it does.

Moving on, you'll undoubtedly need to create shell scripts, config scripts, and plenty of other scripts. You will probably also need to compile some tools, hence the knowledge of C. If you aren't using these tools, I question your motive for going with Linux. dude you are out of it. You don't need to know C to compile C. I don't see when you need to create Scripts, as I never have. Installation, when your hardware is compatible (that's a big WHEN,) is trouble-free. Configuration is moderately difficult. You may occasionally need to configure by hand. Even the config utility isn't the easiest to use. However, I managed to pull it off. Then comes printing. Pain in the ass to configure, then pretty easy after that. Overall, Moderately difficult to fairly easy when setting up, Fairly easy to Slightly difficult for everyday usage.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Placebo
Well, that's what they get for not protecting themselves. If you're smart, there isn't much danger in the Windows world. Firefox is a good start.

Looks like your girlfriend, frustrated with Windows insecurity, switched right at the dawn of Mac viruses... :lol: I thought AutoStart was the dawn of Mac viruses...
Seriously though, Macs got it built in. Still, some easy steps to security
1. Install updates
2. Turn off "Open 'Safe' files after downloading"
3. Inspect all suspicious files or e-mails in ClamXav, or better yet, Virex
4. Scan weekly with ClamXav or Virex
5. Turn on your included firewall
6. Never go to suspicious websites. Always use reliable porn websites
7. Never use P2P. If you must download only .avi, .mov, .jpeg, .png, .mpg, .mp3 and virus check every file with ClamXav or Virex.
8. And That's It!

If you follow those instructions (you may substitute NAV for Virex,) you are about 99.9% secure.
Even only following 1, 2, 6, 7 and thinking before opening you're 95% secure.

[Zenga]

Placebo! Please let us all know your experience with windows "vista", I know you're a beta tester, maybe a bunch of us will follow your switch!

:smokey:

[a_greer]

Originally posted by Placebo
SURE, YOU'VE NEVER GOTTEN A MAC VIRUS, but that doesn't set precedent for you never getting a Mac virus, especially with a few working concepts, if not actual viruses, coming out last week. True, but the differance is the atitude of the vendors to security, lets look at an example.

Loads of people complain because malicious code can run outside of the browser sandbox in IE with a high level of privilage (i.e. ADMIN access): MSs response, "yea, that is a feature, not a bug, we cant be botherd to make sure that the browser-baced Active x stuff is sandboxed properly" Essentially a big fat fuck you to the computer community

Apple gets a ton of complaints because Safari can execute code with high levels of privalage outside the sandbox in the form of "auto download/setup widgets" for dashboard, the resopnse: "Oh shit, that is a problem, we will patch it within the week, sorry!"

See the differance?

[sunilraman]

sandboxes are fun :D

[costique]

Originally posted by Placebo
I've decided that I'm too much of a hardware/games freak to keep on living with an overpriced system and an undersupported (game-wise) operating system.:wow:
So long. Good luck :\

[Vox Barbara]

Originally posted by costique
:wow:
Good luck :\
Hey costique how are you doing?

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Zenga
Placebo! Please let us all know your experience with windows "vista", I know you're a beta tester, maybe a bunch of us will follow your switch!

:smokey:
...?

[Cory Bauer]

Placebo,
The Mac is not for you. Leave, and don't think twice about it.

If computer gaming is a high priority for a person, they should not be using a Mac. Nor should you bother trying to install Linux; maintaining and making it run will significantly cut into your gaming time. If gaming is what you dominantly use your computer for, then Windows is just something you have to tolerate in order to play.

On top of that, if you're someone who builds their own computer in order to get what you perceive to be the best value, then the Mac is not for you twice over. Apple, or any other OEM for that matter, does not supply that which you value.

Personally, I am highly opposed to home-built computers. $1,500 is just your startup cost. There are always surprises you simply can't anticipate when cobbling together your own set of parts. Component conflicts, driver incompatibility issues, and what have you. One person, no matter how intelligent they are, simply cannot piece together their pick of parts and assure they are cooled and powered sufficiently. Down the road, parts will burn out and fail because of this, and you will have to pay for replacements out of pocket. In my experience, those that build their own computers have the most system issues, replacement costs, and downtime. But that is the sacrafice they make in the name of computer gaming, and they are content with their situation.

I have friends who build their own, because they are gamers. They will never understand the value of a Mac, because they build monster gaming machines for $1,500 - $2,000. They don't care that it sounds like a dishwasher running next to their desk. They think blacklights lining the sides of the case and neon lights inside makes it look good. Reinstalling Windows three times a year doesn't phase them. Replacing a major failed component twice a year - power supply, graphics card, optical drives, motherboard, fans, etc - also doesn't phase them, nor do they factor it into the cost of ownership. They don't value their time, they don't value peace of mind, and they certainly don't value the ability to call tech support and say, "my computer doesn't turn on anymore, fix it!". All that matters to home-built PC users is that, when the computer is actually working, it can run game xxx at xxx frames per second. But alas, that's my personal observation.

If you ever find yourself no longer interested in computer gaming, too busy with other things to play games, or content with console gaming, by all means feel free to come back to the Mac. But right now you should go build your PC and game, because you are the polar opposite of Apple's target audience. Sorry it didn't work out for you.

[Zenga]

Originally posted by Cory Bauer
Placebo,
The Mac is not for you. Leave, and don't think twice about it.

If computer gaming is a high priority for a person, they should not be using a Mac. Nor should you bother trying to install Linux; maintaining and making it run will significantly cut into your gaming time. If gaming is what you dominantly use your computer for, then Windows is just something you have to tolerate in order to play.

On top of that, if you're someone who builds their own computer in order to get what you perceive to be the best value, then the Mac is not for you twice over. Apple, or any other OEM for that matter, does not supply that which you value.

Personally, I am highly opposed to home-built computers. $1,500 is just your startup cost. There are always surprises you simply can't anticipate when cobbling together your own set of parts. Component conflicts, driver incompatibility issues, and what have you. One person, no matter how intelligent they are, simply cannot piece together their pick of parts and assure they are cooled and powered sufficiently. Down the road, parts will burn out and fail because of this, and you will have to pay for replacements out of pocket. In my experience, those that build their own computers have the most system issues, replacement costs, and downtime. But that is the sacrafice they make in the name of computer gaming, and they are content with their situation.

I have friends who build their own, because they are gamers. They will never understand the value of a Mac, because they build monster gaming machines for $1,500 - $2,000. They don't care that it sounds like a dishwasher running next to their desk. They think blacklights lining the sides of the case and neon lights inside makes it look good. Reinstalling Windows three times a year doesn't phase them. Replacing a major failed component twice a year - power supply, graphics card, optical drives, motherboard, fans, etc - also doesn't phase them, nor do they factor it into the cost of ownership. They don't value their time, they don't value peace of mind, and they certainly don't value the ability to call tech support and say, "my computer doesn't turn on anymore, fix it!". All that matters to home-built PC users is that, when the computer is actually working, it can run game xxx at xxx frames per second. But alas, that's my personal observation.

If you ever find yourself no longer interested in computer gaming, too busy with other things to play games, or content with console gaming, by all means feel free to come back to the Mac. But right now you should go build your PC and game, because you are the polar opposite of Apple's target audience. Sorry it didn't work out for you.

amen :smokey: that's exactly why I switched back to mac.. 8)

[sunilraman]

Originally posted by Cory Bauer
...........Reinstalling Windows three times a year doesn't phase them. Replacing a major failed component twice a year - power supply, graphics card, optical drives, motherboard, fans, etc - also doesn't phase them, nor do they factor it into the cost of ownership. They don't value their time, they don't value peace of mind, and they certainly don't value the ability to call tech support and say, "my computer doesn't turn on anymore, fix it!". All that matters to home-built PC users is that, when the computer is actually working, it can run game xxx at xxx frames per second. But alas, that's my personal observation.


You mean "reinstalling windows three times a week just to get a particular game to hit xxx frames per second in the level yyy" doesn't phase them. :smokey: I've been there, it's a fun, crazy world you describe, but not for heavy mac users that actually need to get shit done. and Linux, well, for me, that's got a lot of enterprise/ licensing/ cost saving issues for the worker beees. (edit: but not for the home use IMHO)

[bergz]

Originally posted by Cory Bauer
Placebo,
The Mac is not for you. Leave, and don't think twice about it.

If computer gaming is a high priority for a person, they should not be using a Mac. Nor should you bother trying to install Linux; maintaining and making it run will significantly cut into your gaming time. If gaming is what you dominantly use your computer for, then Windows is just something you have to tolerate in order to play.

On top of that, if you're someone who builds their own computer in order to get what you perceive to be the best value, then the Mac is not for you twice over. Apple, or any other OEM for that matter, does not supply that which you value.

Personally, I am highly opposed to home-built computers. $1,500 is just your startup cost. There are always surprises you simply can't anticipate when cobbling together your own set of parts. Component conflicts, driver incompatibility issues, and what have you. One person, no matter how intelligent they are, simply cannot piece together their pick of parts and assure they are cooled and powered sufficiently. Down the road, parts will burn out and fail because of this, and you will have to pay for replacements out of pocket. In my experience, those that build their own computers have the most system issues, replacement costs, and downtime. But that is the sacrafice they make in the name of computer gaming, and they are content with their situation.

I have friends who build their own, because they are gamers. They will never understand the value of a Mac, because they build monster gaming machines for $1,500 - $2,000. They don't care that it sounds like a dishwasher running next to their desk. They think blacklights lining the sides of the case and neon lights inside makes it look good. Reinstalling Windows three times a year doesn't phase them. Replacing a major failed component twice a year - power supply, graphics card, optical drives, motherboard, fans, etc - also doesn't phase them, nor do they factor it into the cost of ownership. They don't value their time, they don't value peace of mind, and they certainly don't value the ability to call tech support and say, "my computer doesn't turn on anymore, fix it!". All that matters to home-built PC users is that, when the computer is actually working, it can run game xxx at xxx frames per second. But alas, that's my personal observation.

If you ever find yourself no longer interested in computer gaming, too busy with other things to play games, or content with console gaming, by all means feel free to come back to the Mac. But right now you should go build your PC and game, because you are the polar opposite of Apple's target audience. Sorry it didn't work out for you.

S o V e r y T r u e . Great Post.
--B

[kim kap sol]

Placebo...stop hanging around these forums...you're making us believe like you care about the Mac. You don't *really* care about the Mac...do you!?

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by kim kap sol
[B]Placebo...stop hanging around these forums...

Stop being an arrogant prick and stop telling people what to do when you have no such authority.

you're making us believe like you care about the Mac. You don't *really* care about the Mac...do you!?

He's a 15-year old guy who happens to think that playing games is an important part of his days as a teenager. And he is absolutely right - it was for me, for my friends, people I've spoken to later on, etc. We didn't have computers at the time, couldn't afford them, but we did play them.

His views about the Mac are not political, as opposed to yours, and he doesn't think that "switching" is one more way to Kill Microsoft™. He doesn't care, nor should he.

Stop harassing the guy. And if you have something else to add to this (I apologize for being so off-topic) - use the PM function. Don't want to continue to answer to this charade anymore.

[kim kap sol]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Stop being an arrogant prick and stop telling people what to do when you have no such authority.



He's a 15-year old guy who happens to think that playing games is an important part of his days as a teenager. And he is absolutely right - it was for me, for my friends, people I've spoken to later on, etc. We didn't have computers at the time, couldn't afford them, but we did play them.

His views about the Mac are not political, as opposed to yours, and he doesn't think that "switching" is one more way to Kill Microsoft™. He doesn't care, nor should he.

Stop harassing the guy. And if you have something else to add to this (I apologize for being so off-topic) - use the PM function. Don't want to continue to answer to this charade anymore.

So you tell me to stop harassing him by harassing me?

[hmurchison]

KKS has every right to question the motives of a poster who created a thread about switching to windows/linux and then sticking around. What's the point really? I'd be a bit skeptical as well.

I like Placebo's posts. I feel he should in fact try linux and windows but not at the expensive of utilizing the Mac. Each platform has its relative benefits and it's never an either/or choice.

My selfish desire would be that Placebo sell his G5. Build a kick-butt gaming rig and keep a old Mac around to futz around with. Knowledge is power.

[addabox]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Stop being an arrogant prick and stop telling people what to do when you have no such authority.



He's a 15-year old guy who happens to think that playing games is an important part of his days as a teenager. And he is absolutely right - it was for me, for my friends, people I've spoken to later on, etc. We didn't have computers at the time, couldn't afford them, but we did play them.

His views about the Mac are not political, as opposed to yours, and he doesn't think that "switching" is one more way to Kill Microsoft™. He doesn't care, nor should he.

Stop harassing the guy. And if you have something else to add to this (I apologize for being so off-topic) - use the PM function. Don't want to continue to answer to this charade anymore.

So it's being an "arrogant prick" to dis Placebo but you are right on point to order people to stop posting a certain way?

For heaven's sake, this is a Mac discussion forum. I don't see anything particularly surprising in wondering why someone who feels the platform doesn't meet their needs nevertheless feels the need to keep telling us so, in said forum.

I honestly could care less what computer people use. It doesn't matter to me one bit, and Placebo has made a convincing case that the Mac isn't for him, given his desires.

But I'm not particularly interested in hearing from PC users why the Mac doesn't cut it. If I wanted that I could hang out in the Battlefront forum over at Ars, you know?

Edit: whoops, already got said by the time I posted this.

[Mr. H]

Originally posted by Cory Bauer
Personally, I am highly opposed to home-built computers. $1,500 is just your startup cost. There are always surprises you simply can't anticipate when cobbling together your own set of parts. Component conflicts, driver incompatibility issues, and what have you. One person, no matter how intelligent they are, simply cannot piece together their pick of parts and assure they are cooled and powered sufficiently. Down the road, parts will burn out and fail because of this, and you will have to pay for replacements out of pocket. In my experience, those that build their own computers have the most system issues, replacement costs, and downtime. But that is the sacrafice they make in the name of computer gaming, and they are content with their situation.

Are you talking just about the bleeding edge here? Because I needed a cheap computer as a server, so I decided to build one. It's been running Windows 2000 pretty much 24/7 for 2.5 years and I've never had a problem with it. Never had to re-install anything, nothing's ever over-heated, nothing's broken.

[Mr. H]

Originally posted by addabox
I honestly could care less what computer people use.

Could NOT care less. Think about it.

[sunilraman]

Placebo: here's what you should do, is my humble recommendation.

1. get a mac mini core solo
2. hook it up to a display/keyboard/mouse/speaker switcher
3. hook the switcher up to you kickass gaming rig.
4. sell the g5
5. voila. best of all worlds. you'll be happy, i think :D

[addabox]

Originally posted by Mr. H
Could NOT care less. Think about it.

No, really, I could care less but it's not worth the effort .:)

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by Mr. H
Could NOT care less. Think about it.

That's the british expression, in the US, we say could care less... eh... it's probably just syllabic laziness.

[hmurchison]

The differences are significant enough.


"I couldn't care less"

Means you've reached the depths of apathy and cannot go any lower.

"I could care less"

Means fuk all. The person is now thinking "Well how much less could you care"

I know...some of you couldn't care less about the differences. To each their own.

:smokey:

[backtomac]

If this thread were an animal, I would euthenize it.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by kim kap sol
So you tell me to stop harassing him by harassing me?

In no way am I harassing you: you are being an arrogant prick by telling him to "stop hanging around these forums" as if you're the owner of these forums. You're not. You can't order people to stop hanging around these forums, especially not with dubious, fanboi excuses like "You don't *really* care about the Mac...do you!?"

Seriously, it's getting boring hearing you tell people to 'stop hanging around these boards' when you have no such authority. I, as a member, am annoyed by it, and I called you on it. You don't like it? Think about it next time you tell people to stop hanging around these boards.

So it's being an "arrogant prick" to dis Placebo but you are right on point to order people to stop posting a certain way?

I'm not ordering. He's the one who's ordering people to 'stop hanging around these boards' with "supporting evidence" like ""You don't *really* care about the Mac...do you!?" and I just told him to stop harassing the guy just because he is going to sell his G5 so he can buy a PC.

For heaven's sake, this is a Mac discussion forum. I don't see anything particularly surprising in wondering why someone who feels the platform doesn't meet their needs nevertheless feels the need to keep telling us so, in said forum.

Because there are different segments in one market, and if one segment is not being satisfied, there is a need to discuss about the requirements of said segment? Because it's normal in a discussion board to, you know, discuss issues, even if said issues are not positive or if they include a hint of critique toward the Mac? Or is it OK on a Mac board to just sing praises to Macs, with no sense of critique, even if such a critique is, in effect, positive and not based on some anti-Mac sentiment?

But I'm not particularly interested in hearing from PC users why the Mac doesn't cut it.

He's not a PC user; he own a G5. Does that make qualify him in your eyes to say that Macs do not sufficiently fulfill his desire to use his expensive machine as a predominatly gaming-machine?

I don't care about gaming myself, nor do I care if he switches to Windows/Linux at the end of the day, but I find it kinda arrogant to tell people to stop posting in these boards just because they're not using (or they're not planning to continue using, anyway) Mac machines.

My selfish desire would be that Placebo sell his G5. Build a kick-butt gaming rig and keep a old Mac around to futz around with. Knowledge is power.

Wich is exactly what he said he would do. But no... he has to stop posting here because he's not using a Mac anymore... :rolleyes:

[theapplegenius]

I wish i was a 15 year old w/ a PMG5, but thats probably because i have a kickass PC that gets 500FPS in UT2004. Thats something Mac users could only dream of, me included.

[sunilraman]

look. i'm getting my rocks off with F.E.A.R, UT2004, NeedForSpeed:MostWanted.... and HalfLife2 was great. I'm into the story/ adventure/ action aspect of these things, I tried out AgeOfEmpires3 but it didn't really get me going as much as the modern-warfare-type RealTimeStrategyGames.

My weapon of choice: custom built AMD64 Venice 3000+ (IIRC) with nVidia 6600GT 128mb vram. matched pair 2.5-3-3-7-1T 512mb x2 dimms (1gb total).

Am I happy I got to try this out?
1. Yes, because being a mac user for several years I never had the chance
2. Yes, because playstation/xbox gaming is just a weird mystery to me I'm scared to get involved in
3. Yes, because I get to use my PC for other stuff like web browsing, office, etc. when my parents (long story) are using the iBook g4.

What would I do differently given choices and budget now?

1. Get a Macbook Pro
2. Get a Sony PS2, trade up to PS3 when the time comes
3. Stop getting involved in "my graphic card can beat up your graphic card" arguments.
4. Stop using a windows/linux PC

That all said, I am one very very very happy nVidia customer.... though ATi is cool too 'coz it's in the Macbook Pro.

AND....would i ever game on the Mac? HELL YEAH, not the games those PC fanboys wet themselves about, but the generally FUN games that are on the Mac ... I can have my hardcore FPS/RTS/Whatever games on my PS2 or PS3, and I can have my fun, chillout, relaxing games on my Macbook Pro.

All this said, I actually right now don't need dual core so the single core 13" wide iBook (MacBook singlecore) will be just perfect..... c'mon stevie J !!!!

[Placebo]

Firstoff - the G5 isn't yet out of my possession. It will be this weekend (for $1600), so I'm buying an [b]iPod[b/] to a) back my data up with and b) to provide a humble offering to Kim Kap Sol so that I may continue to behold the great priveledge of posting on his forum.

Second, I really truly love the Mac, and I find its OS to be its most powerful advantage and reason I've put up with its overpriced hardware and other limits until now. Windows is really not that atrocious for me at least: I use it at school, I use it on my friends' PCs, and I'm willing to save a grand and have an infinite path of hardware upgradeability, for the price of the operating system. That said, I will still try to run the Mac OS on the illicit new hardware, but I'm not counting on that to be successful.

Third, Vista has been confirmed not to never run on the Intel Macs, at least current hardware and the launch build of Vista.

Fourth, a) this thread is relevant to the Mac and b) I'm going to continue posting here for quite a while further. There are plenty of people around here who use PCs, and I still like the Mac and most of its users.

[sunilraman]

I'm posting this on a PC :D ... Let's talk specs baby. RAM: 2-2-2-5-1T ? video: 7800 GTX? or 7600GT? hard disk: 160GB SATA? 7200rpm 16mb cache? YEAHHHHHHHHH, let's talk specs baby. Talk it to me dirty............ YEAHHHHH

[Placebo]

Er.

Well, I'm going for a 7900GTX with 512 VRAM, a 4400+ X2, and a solid 160GB SATA drive.

[sunilraman]

:wow: oh bollocks. i just wet myself. thanks a lot, placebo. enjoy your pc orgasm. say goodbye to mac . we just don't have the hot and heavy specs you obviously enjoy ;)

[Mr. H]

Is it wrong of me to laugh at sunil's posts?

[sunilraman]

hell no. i'm flattered by your appreciation (i'll take it at that) of my humour :D

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Mr. H
Is it wrong of me to laugh at sunil's posts?
"The first lesson you learn at the Clown Academy is, those people are laughing at you, not with you."

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by Placebo
"The first lesson you learn at the Clown Academy is, those people are laughing at you, not with you."

The only thing is that I;m not sure if he's genuine or sarcastic right now.

Because if it's sarcasm, it's pure genius. Comedy gold.


I'm posting this on a PC ... Let's talk specs baby. RAM: 2-2-2-5-1T ? video: 7800 GTX? or 7600GT? hard disk: 160GB SATA? 7200rpm 16mb cache? YEAHHHHHHHHH, let's talk specs baby. Talk it to me dirty............ YEAHHHHH
When I read this I pissed myself.:lol:

[Kickaha]

The thing is, it's pure specwhore style, to a *tee*. Indistinguishable from the real thing.

And really folks, isn't that what parody is all about? ;)

[sunilraman]

:D

[mdriftmeyer]

Personally, I don't use games and won't consider developing any type of game until OS X gets OpenGL 2 standard, has their resolution independence implemented and a clean Cocoa Gamesprockets API set of frameworks to develop on.

However, OS X and Linux are the only Operating systems I'll continue to support and use.

Fortunately, Linux will be ported to the Intel Macs. This is an advantage of an Open Source Kernel.

[a_greer]

Patric Nortan, former co-hodt of the ScreenSavers on TechTv once made a mac v gamerpc analogy that I really like. Forgive me as I will likly not do it justice.

something like "when you look at the horsepower rating in a Rolse Royce brosure it says 'enough' "

I think of it like this, they are two differant beasts.
A gamer PC is like an NHRA dragster,really cool and fast, with an exotic paint job and maybe neon just to show off, and because of the abuse they take, they get rebuilt every couple of weeks

Average Macs (and a lot of run-of-the-mill beige boxes) are like an appliance, its there, and does its job untill the owner decides to get a new one or it dies, little care is given, little attention is paid to them, they "just have to work"

I hate the 7800 w/128 v 7800 w/256 v Radion -whatever-the-hell battles that gamers get into, nothing more annoying than when a buddy brings up a card and starts a fight with the other 3 game nerds at the table...FOR FUCK SAKE GAMES ARE NOT LIFE OR DEATH...

Not ot worry on the mac, whatever card they use, it will work optimully, that is the beuty of integration.

**this comment has nothing to do with what computer or multimedia pros use, for pros it is a whole differant ball game.

[Placebo]

I can't say that a graphics card works "optimally" in a Mac, not with Apple's OGL.

[mynamehere]

Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
Fortunately, Linux will be ported to the Intel Macs. This is an advantage of an Open Source Kernel.

Sort of a general question...

I can see the point of using Linux on a PC that would otherwise use Windows, but why use Linux on a modern Mac, given that MacOSX is based on UNIX?

[Placebo]

Because most people don't use an operating system because of what it's based on, but what it does.

[Splinemodel]

Um, since you can run X11 on a mac, it can do pretty much the same things as Linux can.

[sunilraman]

Originally posted by a_greer
......Not ot worry on the mac, whatever card they use, it will work optimully, that is the beuty of integration........

On the Mac it doesn't matter anyway because Mac video cards are generally not that great. x600... x1600... GMA950... pfft :p

[a_greer]

Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by a_greer
......Not ot worry on the mac, whatever card they use, it will work optimully, that is the beuty of integration........

On the Mac it doesn't matter anyway because Mac video cards are generally not that great. x600... x1600... GMA950... pfft :p 6600, 7800, Quadra...lets not compare apples to oranges here, gamers spend $$$ on towers, look at falcon, aleinware, and the like, hell look at custom built rigs...they usually cost more than an imac or mac mini (if you include a legal copy of an OS (which isnt a consern now because gamers are getting 3rd use out of their XP pro by now, assuming a new PC every ~18 months to keep up with the latest FPS)

For what they are, Apples PM towers are way over priced, but I think the pricepoints of today will be more than fair when the intel switch happens, assuming they use the latest and greatest that intel offers, which they will

[sunilraman]

Not sure about the iMac (even if you factor in the screen in both ways comparison) but most gaming PC rigs are definitely more expensive than the Mac mini, you have a point there.

I guess you guys are probably sick of hearing me say it, the reason why I went with my own built rig instead of a Mac mini is because we (the family) already have an iBook and I was really curious about NeedForSpeed: Most Wanted (can't play it now, reached a stage where it's too bloody hard) and Half Life 2 (super excellent, finished it) and F.E.A.R. (very nice but somewhat monotonous).

Tell you all what though, in hindsight I would have gone with a PS2 for some casual gaming (puzzle, fighting, shooting) and a Mac mini for other stuff.

But building my own rig, some good power on a thin budget makes me feel good.

edit: but i must say, PC gaming is a very weird beast indeed. Very weird in terms of the whole psychology and marketing and competition/synergy with consoles and stuff...

[sunilraman]

Also, I got a chance to try out this whole Linux thing but really, personally I found it to be rubbish** and totally not for me.

**Feel free to flame the f*ck out of me

[mdriftmeyer]

Originally posted by mynamehere
Sort of a general question...

I can see the point of using Linux on a PC that would otherwise use Windows, but why use Linux on a modern Mac, given that MacOSX is based on UNIX?

Developing in both environments. Working in enterprise markets that have Linux inroads and not OS X.

Put both on the same box and you are more efficient.

[theapplegenius]

Originally posted by sunilraman
I guess you guys are probably sick of hearing me say it, the reason why I went with my own built rig instead of a Mac mini is because we (the family) already have an iBook and I was really curious about NeedForSpeed: Most Wanted (can't play it now, reached a stage where it's too bloody hard) and Half Life 2 (super excellent, finished it) and F.E.A.R. (very nice but somewhat monotonous).

What part are you stuck on in NFS?

[sunilraman]

Originally posted by theapplegenius
What part are you stuck on in NFS?

the dude with the corvette with the bones motif all over the car. i got a lamborghini modded to the max but the lamborghini's turning is just not there --- it's just not grippping the road like i want it to.

[ZO]

maybe others have said it.. but with a MacIntel you can have em all..

I actually have a 12inch PB 1.33G4 and a Shuttle that I use just for gaming. Its a great mix.. and I'm happily playing BF2 a few hours a day :) :)

[OfficerDigby]

Well, I'm happy some people are prepared to switch to PC's (for whatever reason - I couldn't). It's better that you do - coze there has to be a competitive market between your PC and your Mac - leading to better deals on both platforms (or at least on the Mac platform). I know there are a lot of you people just ready with all the arguments about how good a deal a Mac is - so what?, put under pressure of Mac-to-PC switchers I think there maybe some more movements to a an even better deal.. It's all to the good.

cheers.
p.s. I may be in a minority here as I don't give a monkies a** about Apple PLC (inflated) share price.

[midwinter]

Yeesh, and here I've been thinking about setting up my old Quadra 650 to plink around on.

[Relic]

Originally posted by midwinter
Yeesh, and here I've been thinking about setting up my old Quadra 650 to plink around on.

650, please, my 840AV smokes it so beyond belief I almost feel sorry to call you a Quadra user. I’m a spec whore, I’m a spec whore, and once again I’m a spec whore.

[Relic]

[i]p.s. I may be in a minority here as I don't give a monkies a** about Apple PLC (inflated) share price. [/B]

Me too, but again I’d buy a Bang & Olufsen system over a Denon any day, not because it’s superior but I like inflated luxury goods that normal poor people can’t afford. Now if we can only get rid of those pesky poor bastards known as iBook/iMac users. Yes I’m a prude but I’m a proud member, down with poor people.

Did I come off as a bad person here?

[Relic]

Originally posted by sunilraman
Also, I got a chance to try out this whole Linux thing but really, personally I found it to be rubbish** and totally not for me.

**Feel free to flame the f*ck out of me

Rubbish, rubbish, what's wrong you don't like working at your computer experience? You expect everything to be magically given to you, pre-packaged computing ecstasy? Fine, be happy with your OSX, me I’ll continue hitting myself in the nuts like some Opus Dei priest who believes hardship is the only way into computer bliss. Hitting self with a thorny whip, Suse, SMACK, Oh God yea, Ubuntu, SMACK, Oh God yeah!

[Relic]

Originally posted by Placebo
Because most people don't use an operating system because of what it's based on, but what it does.

Psssst, don’t tell those Sun(Solaris) marketing guys.

[sunilraman]

Heh. Relic is fucking on a roll here. I want the drugs he’s having...! :smokey: FUCK. OCEANLAB - BEST FUCKING TRANCE EVER. at night my bipolar switches to pure ecstasy whenever I put on some trance. too bad it only lasts an hour before i have to take my medication and go sleepy sleep.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH............

[Relic]

Originally posted by sunilraman
Heh. Relic is fucking on a roll here. I want the drugs he’s having...! :smokey: FUCK. OCEANLAB - BEST FUCKING TRANCE EVER. at night my bipolar switches to pure ecstasy whenever I put on some trance. too bad it only lasts an hour before i have to take my medication and go sleepy sleep.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH DUSH............

Have you heard;

warp brothers - final fantasy - i close my eyes techno trance remix

Great shizism....

[sunilraman]

limewire - waiting on busy hosts :( (yes yes stealing music is bad and wrong)

[Relic]

Originally posted by sunilraman
limewire - waiting on busy hosts :( (yes yes stealing music is bad and wrong)

Yeah, yeah and orgasms kill puppies.

[midwinter]

Originally posted by Relic
650, please, my 840AV smokes it so beyond belief I almost feel sorry to call you a Quadra user. I�m a spec whore, I�m a spec whore, and once again I�m a spec whore.

/me hangs head in shame

yeah yea yeah, I know it's pokey. But it gets the job done! And I'm saving up for a PowerMac 8100/80! Only $4250!!

[iMac David]

Sunilram and Relic,

please stop it - I'm in a serious job, in an open plan office, and laughing out loud is frowned upon. Yes, yes, I know I shouldn't be looking at stuff like this during working hours, but it's a drug.

Just lay-off the comedy, will ya both

:smokey:

David

[sunilraman]

:D ah. glad to be of some use around here despite possibly quite a low IQ.