To Spank or not to Spank

[npynenberg]

Hey! I'm talking about children here.. clean up your minds.

As a father of a two year old I am often faced with the question of whether to spank our child or not. Most of the time we don't... but I'll admit there have been a few times when a swat on the butt made all the difference.

In addition, if my son does something that could be very dangerous.. for example playing with an electrical cord, I have slapped his hand.

I think the key is... don't ever do it when you are angry.

What are your thoughts. Please include whether you are a parent or not in your answer.... I've found that many opinions I have had have changed now that I am a parent.

[dmz]

Never threaten then not follow through: I think a lot of abuse involving spanking comes from threatening again, and again, and again, until everyone (child and adult) are past reason --- the parent lets the child drive them berserk, and then acts out of rage. If it's more matter-of-fact -- I hate to say "routine" -- it's probably a better thing.

Just don't forget that all kids are different -- some won't press the issue, but then others have definite designs on world domination before they reach 1st grade, and need the parent-child lines of communication cleared from time-to-time.

[e1618978]

I have never spanked my kids, but then I only have girls so the behaviour problems are kind of limited.

For the young ones (5 years or less) I make them sit on the floor until they can tell me what they did wrong. Timeouts and loss of permissions handles the older ones.

[blackbird_1.0]

Originally posted by dmz
[i]Just don't forget that all kids are different -- some won't press the issue, but then others have definite designs on world domination before they reach 1st grade, and need the parent-child lines of communication cleared from time-to-time. I agree. :lol:

[BR]

*pinch* Tsst!

That's what you need to do.

[Ebby]

Originally posted by e1618978
but then I only have girls so the behaviour problems are kind of limited.
:lol: Enjoy life while you can. I have 2 brothers and my Uncle has 3 daughters. We often compare our two families to see which is more stressful. Girls may be mild when young, but in our family, well... hehe buckle up! 8)

[Mac_Doll]

I'm guilty; I figured you were looking for sex advice. :lol:

Yep, never underestimate us girls. We're not like boys, we like to manipulate. 8)

I was spanked as a child, and I have to say, I stayed out of trouble often, because I knew what I would get later. I think consistency is key. And please, never be afraid of telling them "No." Overindulgent children seem to be a big problem these days. Remember, you're the one in charge, not them.

I'm not even a mother.. figure that one out. :\

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Ebby
:lol: Enjoy life while you can. I have 2 brothers and my Uncle has 3 daughters. We often compare our two families to see which is more stressful. Girls may be mild when young, but in our family, well... hehe buckle up! 8)

I have just graduated my 2nd 18 year old girl - it is easier once you go through it once. The danger period is 14-17, when their body is maturing faster than their judgement, after that you are smooth sailing.

[Splinemodel]

There are certainly some kids that benefit from getting spanked. I guess you have to wait and find out, but if your kid is a brat, then you'll do worse for yourself, everyone else, and for the kid if you don't spank. In these cases it is inconsiderate not to spank.

If the kid is borderline incorrigible, the way I was, it also doesn't hurt to yell at him while taking off your belt -- threatening a whipping. I was never actually hit with a belt, but, wow, I remember it being a sobering gesture.

[Placebo]

Your child's behavior during childhood has little to no bearing on the rest of their life, so might as well not make it a painful one.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Placebo
Your child's behavior during childhood has little to no bearing on the rest of their life, so might as well not make it a painful one.

I definitely disagree with this. Brat kids grow up to be antisocial adults.

[untsig]

im not a parent but i have plenty of experience on this subject

let me tell you one thing, i love my father with all my heart and respect the hell out of him. but because i grew up my entire life being flat out AFRAID of my dad and the sound of his big belt buckle, i cant hardly show my dad how i feel about him.
i can see it just tears him apart to know that he used to just beat the shit out of us. the first time i EVER saw my dad cry was after a 14 day backpacking/camping trip to Philmont. he was so happy he got to share such an awesome experience with me and i could see how proud he had become of me but it was so incredibly awkward. i learned to respect him and fear him but my love for him wasnt until later in life.
hopefully you understand what im trying to say.
my dad beat us cause that's the only thing he knew (his dad beat him, his sisters and his mom. and my dad hasnt talked to his father in over 20 years b/c of it)

i think my dad finally realized that he had been the father that he grew up hating and still feels bad about it.

in my mind i've forgiven my dad but i have yet to be able to tell him that.

voilence in youth is NOT GOOD.

that being said, i think SPANKING is a must. BUT there is a huge difference bewteen SPANKING and BEATING your child.
i look back and can remember that i was a punk ass of a kid at times and did really stupid stuff that was unneccessary. so i can see that many times i should have been spanked, disciplined, sent to my room to cool down, etc.
but transferring your anger into violence to a child will solve absolutely nothing and just RUIN your relationship w/ your family.

oddly enough, its even made my relationship w/ my sister weird. i've had nightmares of my sis dying and woken up crying and scared sh!tless that it might one day happen. and all i felt like doing was calling my sis and saying "i love you" but to this day i still cant muster up those three words for some reason. being overly disciplened as children didnt seem to affect anything except our emotions and relationships w/ each other.


so, in conclusion (lol), use mild physical discipline tactics WHENEVER necessary. but NEVER cross the line into abuse. NEVER take your anger out on them. WALK AWAY if you get heated. let your wife step in if necessary. teach them to respect you b/c you are their father not because you are stronger and bigger than them. teach them to respect your wife even more than they should respect you. i never treated my mom with enough respect or compassion.

im sure most of this is obvious but to some parents its not. my whole family's emotional structure (or lack there of) is completely f-ed b/c my parents went beyond "spanking".

[Placebo]

Originally posted by e1618978
I definitely disagree with this. Brat kids grow up to be antisocial adults.
That's idiotic. You can choose to be whatever you want to.

Plus, a child should know why somethig is wrong and that should deter him, not that doing so causes pain. That's the parent instilling an animal-like fear into their child.

[untsig]

Originally posted by Placebo
That's idiotic. You can choose to be whatever you want to.
very true.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Placebo
That's idiotic. You can choose to be whatever you want to.

Plus, a whild should know why somethig is wrong and that should deter him, not that doing so causes pain. That's the parent instilling an animal-like fear into their child.

I'm not suggesting physical punishment, but if you don't put some limits on your child's behaviour, he/she will grow up to be a monster. I have seen it over and over - sure, if you are thinking rationally then you can choose your life, but people with no childhood limits do not think rationally.

[dmz]

placebo, you have to make the chid discipline h[er]imself -- at an early age handslapping/paddling will make the child stop and think were they otherwise wouldn't.

Yes, the penalty [i]will give them pause to consider how they are going to choose to behave. That's all paddling is, you don't want to spend 16 years of your life per child controlling their every move -- you have to set limits, but allow choices within those limits, and enforce the rules when they are broken.

[hxc04]

Spanking in moderation is good and I will spank my kids when I have them.

[a_greer]

A good theory is spank in leu of greater pain/harm; that is, if they are about to touch a hot oven that you have told them not to, spank them before they touch it, make them associate pain with the action, but dont let them get hurt.

[BRussell]

Parents who don't spank their kids are raising brats. Just talking never gets anything accommplished. You have to be physical or you're not going to make your point as a parent.

But the problem I found is that a simple swat on the butt doesn't have any effect either. That's really no more meaningful than a stern talkng-to or a time-out.

So now I use cigarette burns on their underarms. It's not debilitating in any way, it just teaches them morals. Parents need to really take charge, and this squeamishness about using real punishment shows in this politically-correct "spanking" that do-gooder parents use. They're raising kids who think they can get away with anything.

[Ebby]

Originally posted by BRussell
So now I use cigarette burns on their underarms. It's not debilitating in any way, it just teaches them morals.
Well why don't I just give you my parent's thumb screws while I'm at it. What is the forwarding address again? I'll bring them by personally along with my size 13 boots.

:p

[Placebo]

My god, I'm loving the Adsense banners at the top of this thread.

Also, why spanking? That seems kind of perverted when you think about it. Pull a hair out or something.

[SDW2001]

I spank my daughter (she's almost 3), as does my wife. We also use "time out" and "going on break." A break is not a punishment. It's when she goes up in her bed and gets herself together if she has a meltdown, which is usually brought on by being tired.

"Time out" can be for any misbehavior, but most especially if she hits us. We don't want to spank her if she does that.

Spanking is reserved for complete disobediance mostly. It is very effective as an immediate correction. Sometimes she will get a swat AND a time out.

I am not in favor of spanking as a delayed punishment, and not for kids that are say, over 7 year old. My father hit me with a belt, and all it did was create resentment and fear. I will never do that to my children. But spanking for the little one on occasion? I am totally for that.

[midwinter]

As a child, I was required to go out and cut the switch with which I would be whipped.

[ecking]

When I'm a parent I'll:

Set limits for the children, be firm but not physcially touch.

And spank the wife. :smokey:

[blackbird_1.0]

Originally posted by ecking
And spank the wife. :smokey: :lol:

[pena2050]

I have a 2 year old baby. I don't spank him and I have no desire to.

I haven't had any problems controlling his behavior. When you give children options that are acceptable to you and them, there is no need to hit.

If he wants to eat ice cream on the sofa and I don't want him to, I tell him I don't want him to do that because he will spill, and I take him back to the table. If he insists I give him a choice, 'you can climb on the sofa or you can eat your ice cream at the table.' He chooses what he wants to do. This is a simple example, but it works for everything.

I can't really imagine an instance where I would want to hit or threaten him.

And children who are abused and even spanked are more antisocial, they are more likely to be depressed, less successful in school, and more likely to hit or abuse their parents when they are elderly. But if they do, it won't mean they don't love you, right?

[npynenberg]

Well... lots of theories on this subject!

My wife and I have both spanked.. or slapped our child's hand on rare occasions. In nearly 100% of those occasions they have been situations where the child was about to cause harm to himself.

Examples: Touching a hot over, playing with an electrical cord, etc.

Generally, providing alternatives when he is doing something we don't want him to do has been enough to stop bad behavior.

I know that at least twice I have slapped his hand during full out temper tantrums... and I also know that that was wrong in my mind... and I felt bad about it. (Hence why the thread was started in the first place)

With the exception of the cig burn idea... all good thoughts. I think we will continue only using physical means when the child is in danger.

Under no circumstances would I harm him more than a swat... I love him too much for that. I do, however, want my child to grow up to be a responsible, moral human being... but I think that kind of 'training' is not something that comes from physical means in any way.

Thanks again for all of your input!

[e1618978]

Originally posted by npynenberg
I know that at least twice I have slapped his hand during full out temper tantrums... and I also know that that was wrong in my mind... and I felt bad about it.

I agree that you should not disipline a child for a temper tantrum. The child usually is getting his hard feelings out about something unrelated to what they seem to be mad/upset about - they can be embarrasing when in public, but I usually can take the child off somewhere private and wait until they finish venting.

My theory is that if you stop them from tantruming, then they end up with repressed emotions that come out in other ways later. You definitely should not let them influence decision making via tantrums, but letting them run their course instead of stopping them seems a lot better to me.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by pena2050
I have a 2 year old baby. I don't spank him and I have no desire to.

I haven't had any problems controlling his behavior. When you give children options that are acceptable to you and them, there is no need to hit.

If he wants to eat ice cream on the sofa and I don't want him to, I tell him I don't want him to do that because he will spill, and I take him back to the table. If he insists I give him a choice, 'you can climb on the sofa or you can eat your ice cream at the table.' He chooses what he wants to do. This is a simple example, but it works for everything.

I can't really imagine an instance where I would want to hit or threaten him.

And children who are abused and even spanked are more antisocial, they are more likely to be depressed, less successful in school, and more likely to hit or abuse their parents when they are elderly. But if they do, it won't mean they don't love you, right?
I think that's pretty much how I think about it and how I'd go about it as a parent.

[Mac_Doll]

Originally posted by pena2050
And children who are abused and even spanked are more antisocial, they are more likely to be depressed, less successful in school, and more likely to hit or abuse their parents when they are elderly. But if they do, it won't mean they don't love you, right?
I'm a product of strict discipline, often physical. I recently graduated college, paying for all the tuition and supplies out of my own pocket. I respect my elders, know right from wrong, and I'm far from depressed. I wouldn't even think of harming another human being... ever. You were saying? Apparently, I don't fit into that particular stereotype.

By the way, I love my parents more than anything in the world, and I know they love me the same way.

[Mac_Doll]

Statistical data, huh? Where's the links to the said data which would back up those claims?

Oh dear, I must be an anomaly then. And don't worry, I'm well aware of word meanings. It just upsets me when people pigeonhole me according to my upbringing. It's not like that for every single last person. With the rise in shows like "Honey, We're Killing the Kids," "Super Nanny," and "Nanny 911," I think some strict discipline could benefit this new generation of kids. Perhaps there's statistical data behind all that, too?

By the way, to recall your previous statement, I'm not in any way "fucked up," Shawn. :mad:

[progmac]

I'm not a parent or anything, but I can't seem to get around that spanking = hitting. Whether it's "out of love" or not, you are still hitting your child. The only lesson i see that it teaches is, "don't do bad things or I will hit you." Thus maybe your kid shuts up, but it seems to benefit the parent (quiet child) more than the child (quiet, but afraid). Hence, I am saying that spanking your child is selfish.

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
Well. . . I had "the corner" time-out and I would rather do anything than being sent there. . .

Pssh, the "corner time-out" followed by a hug is how you turn good, American kids into sissy pinkos.

[Placebo]

You're all also forgetting that positive incentives encourage self-control in the child rather than instinctive flinching away from something because pain is associated with it.

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by Placebo
You're all also forgetting that positive incentives encourage self-control in the child rather than instinctive flinching away from something because pain is associated with it.

Obviously, you hate the idea of spanking. I can't say exactly why this is, but I think it's pretty fair to say that one kid can be very different than the next, and it's foolish to try to prescibe blanket policy. It's pretty evident that spanking can have positive results on some children, while other forms of correction have little impact on them.

Finally, any male who has an older brother has the flinch instinct. It's one hell of a stretch to say that younger brothers are subconsciously disadvantaged.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
It's pretty evident that spanking can have positive results on some children
You and Stewie Griffin share an opinion.

http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/3616/fgspank0gu.jpg

[pena2050]

Some articles from a search on google scholar. In a nutshell, the research on corporal punishment suggests it's better not to do it.

I'm still not sure why parents want to hit their children when they don't have to. If you can't control your child, read some books or ask for advice.

#
Corporal Punishment in Adolescence and Physical Assaults on Spouses in Later Life: What Accounts for the Link? (in Corporal Punishment and Child Sexual Abuse)

Murray A. Straus; Carrie L. Yodanis

Journal of Marriage and the Family, Vol. 58, No. 4. (Nov., 1996), pp. 825-841.

Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-2445%28199611%2958%3A4%3C825%3ACPIAAP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2

Abstract: There is considerable evidence that corporal punishment is associated with the subsequent aggression of children, and there is recent evidence that later in life this aggression includes physical assaults on spouses. Yet there has been no direct test of either modeling of cultural norms or other processes that could account for the link between corporal punishment and partner violence. Using data on 4,401 couples who participated in the National Family Violence Survey, this article reports such a test. The theoretical model specified three processes: social learning, depression, and truncated development of nonviolent conflict-resolution skills. Logistic regression was used to estimate separate models for men and women. The findings are consistent with the theoretical model. Because corporal punishment of adolescents occurs in over half of U.S. families, the findings suggest that elimination of this practice can reduce some of the psychological and social processes that increase the likelihood of future marital violence and perhaps other violence as well.

Remove from List


#
On Discipline (in Commentaries)

Joan McCord

Psychological Inquiry, Vol. 8, No. 3. (1997), pp. 215-217.

Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1047-840X%281997%298%3A3%3C215%3AOD%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J

Remove from List


#
Discipline and Deviance: Physical Punishment of Children and Violence and Other Crime in Adulthood (in Presidential Address: Punishment and Violence)

Murray A. Straus

Social Problems, Vol. 38, No. 2. (May, 1991), pp. 133-154.

Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0037-7791%28199105%2938%3A2%3C133%3ADADPPO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4

Abstract: This paper presents a theoretical model of the antecedents and consequences of the use of physical punishment by parents and teachers and preliminary tests of that theory using data from a variety of sources, most notably the 3,300 children and 6,000 couples in the National Family Violence Survey. Over 90 percent of American parents use physical punishment to correct misbehavior. The findings support the theory that although physical punishment may produce conformity in the immediate situation, in the longer run it tends to increase the probability of deviance, including delinquency in adolescence and violent crime inside and outside the family as an adult. However, since the findings are based on cross sectional studies, experimental studies are needed to test the causal nature of the relationships. If the results of such experiments support the theory, important implications emerge for both individual parents and national policy. For individual parents, the theory suggests that parents who use no physical punishment will, on the average, have better behaved children. At the national policy level, the theory suggests that one of the steps needed to achieve a society with a minimum of crime and violence is for parents to avoid all use of physical punishment.

Remove from List


#
Corporal Punishment as a Stressor among Youth (in Conflict and Distress)

Heather A. Turner; David Finkelhor

Journal of Marriage and the Family, Vol. 58, No. 1. (Feb., 1996), pp. 155-166.

Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-2445%28199602%2958%3A1%3C155%3ACPAASA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23

Abstract: This article addresses the impact of corporal punishment by parents on the psychological well-being of youth. The present research used the National Youth Victimization Prevention Study (NYVPS), a nationally representative sample of 1,042 boys and 958 girls, ages 10-16. Based on a stress-process framework, we examine: (a) the effects of frequency of corporal punishment experienced by youth ages 10-16 on psychological distress and clinically relevant depression and (b) the moderating influence of parental support on the associations between corporal punishment and psychological outcomes. Controlling for sociodemographic factors and physical abuse, our findings indicate a positive association between the frequency of corporal punishment and both psychological distress and depression. Although distress is greatest at higher frequencies of punishment, the association is also present at low and moderate levels of corporal punishment. An interaction between corporal punishment and parental support was also evident, showing that the impact of frequent punishment relative to no corporal punishment was greater in the context of high parental support.

Remove from List

Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review
Publisher: Springer Netherlands
ISSN: 1096-4037 (Paper) 1573-2827 (Online)
DOI: 10.1023/A:1021891529770
Issue: Volume 2, Number 2
Date: June 1999
Pages: 55 - 70
Corporal Punishment by American Parents: National Data on Prevalence, Chronicity, Severity, and Duration, in Relation to Child and Family Characteristics

Murray A. Straus Contact Information and Julie H. Stewart

Abstract We present data on corporal punishment (CP) by a nationally representative sample of 991 American parents interviewed in 1995. Six types of CP were examined: slaps on the hand or leg, spanking on the buttocks, pinching, shaking, hitting on the buttocks with a belt or paddle, and slapping in the face. The overall prevalence rate (the percentage of parents using any of these types of CP during the previous year) was 35% for infants and reached a peak of 94% at ages 3 and 4. Despite rapid decline after age 5, just over half of American parents hit children at age 12, a third at age 14, and 13% at age 17. Analysis of chronicity found that parents who hit teenage children did so an average of about six times during the year. Severity, as measured by hitting the child with a belt or paddle, was greatest for children age 5–12 (28% of such children). CP was more prevalent among African American and low socioeconomic status parents, in the South, for boys, and by mothers. The pervasiveness of CP reported in this article, and the harmful side effects of CP shown by recent longitudinal research, indicates a need for psychology and sociology textbooks to reverse the current tendency to almost ignore CP and instead treat it as a major aspect of the socialization experience of American children; and for developmental psychologists to be cognizant of the likelihood that parents are using CP far more often than even advocates of CP recommend, and to inform parents about the risks involved.

Punishment - physical - corporal - spanking - parent - age - infant - gender - SES - ethnic - region

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by e1618978
I agree that you should not disipline a child for a temper tantrum. The child usually is getting his hard feelings out about something unrelated to what they seem to be mad/upset about - they can be embarrasing when in public, but I usually can take the child off somewhere private and wait until they finish venting.

My theory is that if you stop them from tantruming, then they end up with repressed emotions that come out in other ways later. You definitely should not let them influence decision making via tantrums, but letting them run their course instead of stopping them seems a lot better to me.

Don't agree entirely. They also have to understand what is and what is not an acceptable reaction to something. Often tantrums are for no good reason, not even fatigue. We will sometime give a timeout if the tantrum is ridiculous. My daughter will be taught to understand that screaming and kicking and flipping out is not acceptable just because the answer is "no" to something.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by pena2050
I have a 2 year old baby. I don't spank him and I have no desire to.

I haven't had any problems controlling his behavior. When you give children options that are acceptable to you and them, there is no need to hit.

If he wants to eat ice cream on the sofa and I don't want him to, I tell him I don't want him to do that because he will spill, and I take him back to the table. If he insists I give him a choice, 'you can climb on the sofa or you can eat your ice cream at the table.' He chooses what he wants to do. This is a simple example, but it works for everything.

I can't really imagine an instance where I would want to hit or threaten him.

And children who are abused and even spanked are more antisocial, they are more likely to be depressed, less successful in school, and more likely to hit or abuse their parents when they are elderly. But if they do, it won't mean they don't love you, right?

Choices are good, but they don't always work. We use choices like that as well, but sometimes a spank is the only way. When your child scream "no" at you a few times over and refuses to sit on time out, then what are you going to do...give him a choice? Don't give me the "children will be depressed" bullshit. Spanking, done correctly and without anger, will not cause that. Period.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by pena2050
Some articles from a search on google scholar. In a nutshell, the research on corporal punishment suggests it's better not to do it. Yes it does. I teach a learning and memory class, and one time a few years ago we read this article (http://www.apa.org/journals/bul/july02-release.html) along with the commentaries on it. Here's a summary. (http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html) While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).

Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.
They find that spanking does "work:" It is associated with compliance on the part of the child. But I think the most interesting other finding is that it is negatively associated with internalization - in other words, kids don't learn from being spanked.

The other issue is that spanking doesn't have much effect one way or the other, long-term. Sure, it has some negative effects, but not very big correlations. That's also consistent with most of the other findings in this area - small differences in parenting techniques don't have much influence on how kids turn out.

I also thought it was interesting that the biggest correlation they found was between spanking and abuse. In other words, the parents who spank were also the ones who were actually abusive. I'm sure all the parents who spank will say they aren't abusive, but the correlation is there.

[NOFEER]

we spank, but only use it as the last resort and of several different punishments. we have a 4 and 2 year old. haven't spanked the 2 year old. they need to be able to communicate and fully understand what you are saying. we use nose in the corner, time out, witholding things like tv, computer, dvd, candy, desserts etc. the BIG thing is the two parents work together as a team, follow through is key. look at the 911 nanny she has good insights.
we don't spank the 2 year old, limited things for her. nose in the corner time out etc. now the older one, we spank but VERY infrequently. what ever you do it's more important that both parents agree and not fight each other. i once used tobassco sauce on my son when he had "filth mouth" worked great i only had to do that 2 times and then show the bottle to him and he'd calm right down. now my new wife thinks that was cruel--. but says her mom used soap--now she says after many years at least the tobassco is a food the key is for it to work and you shouldn't have to use it but a few times over the years.. the idea is to choose something you only have to do rarely. and use many other techniques ratcheting things up a bit. things work for my 2 y/o but not my 4 y/o each is different. my 4 y/o is very stubborn and head strong and needs a much firmer hand, my 2 y/o works with nose inthe corner and time out.

the idea is stop the bad behaviour, for our 4 year old a "good star chart" that she made up worked for misbehaving in church, it works ...so far. and she wants those stars. she gets stars when she is avoids bad behavior but also gets them for positive things like compassion, helping others and thoughtfulness. we also praise 5:1 meaning for everthing we say she is doing wrong we also during the day tell her at least 5 things she is doing well. the least little things need praise too. don't lose opportunies to praise good behavior....but we also don't feel our children do no wrong like some other permissive parents we know.

children need guidance, learn to say no, and don't give in to everything, pick your battles.

[Mac_Doll]

Originally posted by SDW2001
Choices are good, but they don't always work. We use choices like that as well, but sometimes a spank is the only way. When your child scream "no" at you a few times over and refuses to sit on time out, then what are you going to do...give him a choice? Don't give me the "children will be depressed" bullshit. Spanking, done correctly and without anger, will not cause that. Period.

Thank you.

[Splinemodel]

A little bit of depression is good. Anger and aggression are good too, within limits. The mistake of the quoted reports is that they think a prozac-stabilized life is the ideal behavior. It's not. The huge amount of people on anti-depressants these days is a worrying figure: might it be possible to reduce by making kids learn to control all of their emotions, instead of just a saccharine subset of them?

[Mr Beardsley]

When your child runs out into the street, are you going to stop and give them choices? There are times when you need immediate, unquestioning obedience from a child. Spanking can help you achieve that. As others have said, children and situations are different, and spanking is but one tool. Would you try to fix an entire car with only a 13mm box end wrench? Is the 13mm box end wrench really good at what it does in the right context? You bet. Consistency, proper limits, and discipling out of love are all much more important than spanking.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by SDW2001
Don't agree entirely. They also have to understand what is and what is not an acceptable reaction to something. Often tantrums are for no good reason, not even fatigue. We will sometime give a timeout if the tantrum is ridiculous. My daughter will be taught to understand that screaming and kicking and flipping out is not acceptable just because the answer is "no" to something.

Acceptable reactions to things are mostly learned in older ages (like 7-13) - I was thinking of younger kids. In my experience, kids who are hushed up have more temper tantrums than kids who are allowed to vent.

This all presupposes consistant limits, though. Parents who have inconsistant rules will end up with kids who tantrum way too much, just because it is unnerving for the kids to have changing rules.

[Placebo]

If you let the kid throw a tantrum and don't reward them by fulfilling whatever want they had, they'll learn that it does nothing for them.

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by Placebo
If you let the kid throw a tantrum and don't reward them by fulfilling whatever want they had, they'll learn that it does nothing for them.

You know, a kid that's younger than 18 months or so doesn't even recognize himself in a mirror. That's a small test, but full-grown chimps and bonobos do recognize themselves in a mirror. Kids are sub-human, and may not always act rationally if the stimulus is not convincing enough. Or, when being ignored might just scream progressively louder.

The continual failure of your anti-spanking argument is that you are treating a very complex thing -- the behavior of a child -- as an isolated lab experiment. There is too much variance in children and also in the methods applied for discipline to allow any broad study to provide pertinent data for an isolated case (i.e. your child). I don't think anyone here is suggesting that spanking should be the only method used to discipline a child, but without it you are depriving the child of the most basic behavioral experience: failure equals pain. Non corporeal forms of "pain" may suffice for certain children, but not for all.

As an aside, there are interesting side-hypotheses to this debate. Such as, which character traits lead to successful application of spanking in childhood? I'd argue that people who are very defiant, self-confident, and predisposed to fight (rather than "flight") might only respond to corporal punishment, and probably have the gall later in life not to have been affected much by it. That would be the "alpha" characteristic from the context of "alpha-male." A lot of people wonder why some boys, particularly those on sports teams or with certain organizations seem to enjoy both sides of hazing. Well, that's your pool of people who in youth could probably be positively affected by spanking.

[dmz]

Originally posted by Placebo
If you let the kid throw a tantrum...
Unless you want to be able to predict when it's safe to be in public. I'd rather not have to get my 4 year-old's permission.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Splinemodel
You know, a kid that's younger than 18 months or so doesn't even recognize himself in a mirror. That's a small test, but full-grown chimps and bonobos do recognize themselves in a mirror. Kids are sub-human, and may not always act rationally if the stimulus is not convincing enough. Or, when being ignored might just scream progressively louder.
That makes me explain an argument I had previously considered making which is, if the kid doesn't have the capacity for self- control, why physically injure him for something he might not even understand he's doing, or is incapable of preventing himself from doing?

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by Placebo
That makes me explain an argument I had previously considered making which is, if the kid doesn't have the capacity for self- control, why physically injure him for something he might not even understand he's doing, or is incapable of preventing himself from doing?

Because even pavlov's dog understands basic, behavioral stimuli.

[skatman]

Damn...
I thought this was about "Should I spank the twin sister of my girlfriend?" thread!

[Mac_Doll]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
No girlfriend for spanking related activities :( Kidding, I'm not a fan of that type.
I sure am. :devil:

[blackbird_1.0]

Originally posted by skatman
Damn...
I thought this was about "Should I spank the twin sister of my girlfriend?" thread! :lol:

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Mac_Doll
I sure am. :devil:
Re-post that in this thread (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?threadid=63016&perpage=40&pagenumber=1) and it will, for all intents and purposes, explode.

[a_greer]

Originally posted by pena2050
Some articles from a search on google scholar. In a nutshell, the research on corporal punishment suggests it's better not to do it.
In adolecents that is true, BUT when it comes to kids under say 4-5, it may be good, their reasoning skills may not be as developed -- they dont understand the physical damage that getting hit by a car can do; but spanking can give some association; they kid may think "last time I went into the street, I got spanked, I dont want that again!" Spanking is a teaching tool more than a punishment tool.

[a_greer]

Originally posted by Mac_Doll
I sure am. :devil: Well hubba-hubba!
:wow: :D :smokey: :lol:
Giggiddy Goo!
</quagmire>

[rok]

Originally posted by Placebo
That's idiotic. You can choose to be whatever you want to.

you act like there's some sort of switch that kicks in and takes over for making decisions, and discounts anything that happened in early childhood. sure, the specifics of childhood are exactly carried onwards (unless especially traumatic or repetitive), but in broad strokes, good children, by-and-large, become good people who want to do good things (or at least what they have learned to be good, which is a completely different thread altogether). it's a "social language" you learn, just like small children who take language immersion classes during their formative language building years are EONS ahead of others in terms of multi-lingualism and other multi-faceted thinking skills. they don't know why they are more adept at such things, they just ARE, and the same holds true for social interaction. there are stories of the random samplings, though, of people coming out of terrible circumstances to become ideal citizens, and ideal families creating horrible adults later in life. but we usually catch these stories in the media -- becoming a world or industry leader, or, by contrast, a serial killer -- so we see one instance, and think it's more widespread than it actually is.

my only personal experience to all this is that my dad spanked me... i never knew such pain, and he only ever used his hand, but i was terrified of it. i turned out okay, yet when i recently saw a woman whacking the hell out of her son's behind the other day at the mall for some transgression, it just seemed brutal and unnecessary from the other side of the looking glass.

[dfiler]

I have an interesting take on the subject. Recently, our culture has made physical confrontation the most taboo interaction between people.

While fighting and physical violence is generally not desireable, it seems to have been overly demonized. People no longer even entertain the possibility that it might be the lesser of two evils.

For instance, physical bullying is considered the epitomy of evil. Yet verbal and coercive bullying is almost encouraged.

This phenomenon is also observable in our attitude toward the spanking of children. This is unfortunate because verbally and physically enforced punishment are equally traumatizing to a child. Physical abuse is normally accompanied by emotional/verbal abuse, and that, in my opinion, is what ends up leading to serious problems later in life.

A child can emotionally recover from clear-cut and consistently applied corporal punishment. Inconsistent verbal intimidation / behavior modification can take decades to come back from.

I'm not backing one over the other. Rather, I'm pointing out that we've overly demonized physical confrontation when compared to verbal confrontation. Both can be traumatizing and both can be affective in raising a child.

[user23]

physical punishment is, hands-down, disgusting. To resort to corporal punishment is the mark of a failed parent.

This may make some of you angry - that's fine.

Further, the use of *any* object (hair brush, belt, etc) when punishing a child is considered --child abuse-- & I wouldn't hesitate to call Child Protective Services on anyone I saw doing this.

I can assure parents, as a parent, that if you "need" to spank your child, you simply aren't educated enough on how to be a parent..and how to be a good person in general. There are many, many ways of negotiating and there is a wealth of information "out there" which can help any parent raise a child minus the violence.

My god - if you were out in the world and your wife/husband did something you didn't like, would you paddle them until they relented to your point of view? Of course not - and, technically, if you did...and it was non-consensual...you would go to jail on domestic abuse chareges. So, may I ask, where the hell did people get the idea it's OK to committ violence against a defenseless child?

[ThinkingDifferent]

Originally posted by Placebo
That's idiotic. You can choose to be whatever you want to.


And family life has nothing to do with it?

[Placebo]

I really don't think it does as much as people bill it as having.

[skatman]

physical punishment is, hands-down, disgusting. To resort to corporal punishment is the mark of a failed parent.


That is correct. Spanking however, is not a punishment, but an educational tool.


Further, the use of *any* object (hair brush, belt, etc) when punishing a child is considered --child abuse-- & I wouldn't hesitate to call Child Protective Services on anyone I saw doing this.


Do you also call highway patrol everytime you see someone speeding?
Again, we're not talking about punishment... rather education.


I can assure parents, as a parent, that if you "need" to spank your child, you simply aren't educated enough on how to be a parent..


And you know this how? Do you have any data to support that?


My god


Who/ what is your god?

Did you have an abusive father or something? You seem to be stuck on violence, child abuse, domestic abuse, and all of that other shit.
Violence, punishment, abuse has nothing to do with spaking (beating a child is something very different) a child. Education does.

[BRussell]

skatman, the research does not support what you posted. The use of corporal punishment is negatively associated with internalization (i.e., education) and positively associated with physical abuse. That's not true for every single parent and every single child, 100% of the time (what is?), but those are the associations that the research on spanking shows.

[dfiler]

"The research" of course refering to a select batch of studies from a particular culture/mindset/time-in-history. There is certainly not a scientific consensus on this topic.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by dfiler
"The research" of course refering to a select batch of studies from a particular culture/mindset/time-in-history. There is certainly not a scientific consensus on this topic. You can discount any science with that kind of comment, but the fact is, a great deal of research does exist on this topic. And it's not "research" in quotes. It's research: It's what we've found to be true, in comparison to people just making stuff up. At the very least, one should provide a specific criticism of why this research could be wrong or misleading, rather than just this kind of vague "no research is ever valid" comment.

[Placebo]

You are "educating" your child by inflicting pain. Doesn't that sound sinister to you?

[dfiler]

Originally posted by BRussell
You can discount any science with that kind of comment, but the fact is, a great deal of research does exist on this topic. And it's not "research" in quotes. It's research: It's what we've found to be true, in comparison to people just making stuff up. At the very least, one should provide a specific criticism of why this research could be wrong or misleading, rather than just this kind of vague "no research is ever valid" comment. Easy there, science isn't being discounted. Rather, it's being asserted that there isn't scientific consensus on the subject of corporal punishment.

When analyzing the results of a behavioral modification technique, defining "net good" is difficult. This is why there isn't a consensus. It isn't like we're talking about an empirical measurement here.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by dfiler
Easy there, science isn't being discounted. Rather, it's being asserted that there isn't scientific consensus on the subject of corporal punishment. The comment that it's from "a particular culture/mindset/time-in-history" sounded to me like you were discounting science. But in my judgment there is a scientific consensus about it. The only debate about it is whether it is genuinely harmful or just not helpful. You can look at some of the comments from many of the experts in that area in the APA link I provided above.

When analyzing the results of a behavioral modification technique, defining "net good" is difficult. This is why there isn't a consensus. It isn't like we're talking about an empirical measurement here. I don't know what you mean here. If we're not talking empirical measurement, what is it exactly? The studies reviewed in that paper I linked aren't philosophical pieces. It's a meta-analysis of empirical studies. Sure, things like compiance and internalization and aggressiveness are difficult to measure, but just about everything is difficult to measure. That doesn't make it any less empirical.

[dfiler]

Take a step back and look at what you're trying to prove. The achievement of "net good" when choosing how to raise a child.

For people less absolutely fixated on physical aggression, scientific studies focus on completely different measures for determining if a particular behavior modification technique is "good".

It is easy to get lost in one's culture and not even realize one's own bias. Empirical measures aren't what is being argued here. Its the relative relevance of said measures that are in question.

[Splinemodel]

Originally posted by ShawnJ
Spline, put away the armchair psychology.

It's exhausting and you have no credibility to be making those arguments.

If you find research to support that, great.

Edit: Ah, jeez. Sorry I was in a really bad mood. No girlfriend for spanking related activities :( Kidding, I'm not a fan of that type.

Hey, no problem. But I try not to make conclusions on things I don't know much about. I try to frame it as a hypothesis, which may get lost in the manifesto-like nature of typical message board discussion. Part of the reason in may seem exhausting is because I spend too much time trying to cover my tracks. (Or at least I hope I do.)

[Vox Barbara]

Very interesting topic and some very good posts
indeed.

I've got an 8 year old.

Statistics (sorry i don't have them available in English)
regarding this subject tell me, that almost every
one who spanks his/her child, has been spanked
in his/her own childhood previously. Think about that.

As someone else mentioned above, parents are in
charge of their children and not vice versa. Spanking
the children is always a sign of losing self control.
Think about yourself first, who is in charge, YOU.

The bottom line is:
Do not spank, find other ways to communicate.
Communication is good, Spanking is not a part
of that what i call successful Communication
and partnership.

my 2 cents

[Lust]

Originally posted by BRussell

So now I use cigarette burns on their underarms. It's not debilitating in any way, it just teaches them morals.

You realize that you just openly admitted to child abuse . . .

[Chris Cuilla]

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
I've got an 8 year old.

Congratulations.

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Statistics (sorry i don't have them available in English)
regarding this subject tell me, that almost every
one who spanks his/her child, has been spanked
in his/her own childhood previously. Think about that.

So?

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Spanking the children is always a sign of losing self control.

Of course that is not universally (or even predominently) true.

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Do not spank, find other ways to communicate.

Of course spanking isn't the only "tool" in (healthy) parental "tool box".

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Communication is good, Spanking is not a part
of that what i call successful Communication

It certainly can be.

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
and partnership.

If parents are "in charge" and children are not. How is there a "partnership"?

Parents and their children are not "partners" in the child rearing.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Lust
You realize that you just openly admitted to child abuse . . . You realize that you just openly admitted to having a broken sarcasm detector . . .

[Vox Barbara]

Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
...
If parents are "in charge" and children are not. How is there a "partnership"?
...
I don't see any contradiction so far.


...
Parents and their children are not "partners" in the child rearing.
Child rearing? :wow: Anyway, actually i consider parents and their children
as "partners" in the sense that parents and their children have an
informal, say, (hidden) family contract, to achieve a common goal.
Common Goals are in the first place: values regarding social behaviour
(which is a matter to be hammered out later;)).
While growing up children are coming closer and closer
to the goals parents have proposed firstly. Parents are responsible
for the Goals, but parents and their children try to achieve the
goals as "partners".
I know i've put it pretty simple, maybe you've got the pic.

cheers

[gregmightdothat]

Originally posted by BRussell
You realize that you just openly admitted to having a broken sarcasm detector . . .

You realize that your sarcasm is not that funny and plain unintelligent.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by gregmightdothat
You realize that your sarcasm is not that funny and plain unintelligent. No I didn't realize it was "plain unintelligent." Damn.

[dmz]

I'm just hoping Ann Coulter doesn't take the 'cigarette burn' approach in her rhetoric ---oh, wait.

[Chris Cuilla]

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
I don't see any contradiction so far.

A partner participates in a relationship in which each member has equal status.

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Anyway, actually i consider parents and their children
as "partners" in the sense that parents and their children have an informal, say, (hidden) family contract, to achieve a common goal.

Now I see where your confusion lies.

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
parents and their children try to achieve the goals as "partners".

:lol:

[Chucker]

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Parents are responsible
for the Goals, but parents and their children try to achieve the
goals as "partners".

Um, what age children are we talking about? I would imagine the children likely to be spanked (and not fight back, mind you) would be neither willing nor able to have such a thing as "goals".

[skatman]

Originally posted by BRussell
skatman, the research does not support what you posted... [/B]

Please post a reference to a peer reviewed, indexed, and archived primary publication and we can argue about that.


You are "educating" your child by inflicting pain. Doesn't that sound sinister to you?


And... so what?

[BRussell]

Originally posted by skatman
Please post a reference to a peer reviewed, indexed, and archived primary publication and we can argue about that. I already did - look on the previous page. It was the article I was referring to in my response to you.

[aplnub]

Originally posted by npynenberg
Hey! I'm talking about children here.. clean up your minds.

As a father of a two year old I am often faced with the question of whether to spank our child or not. Most of the time we don't... but I'll admit there have been a few times when a swat on the butt made all the difference.

In addition, if my son does something that could be very dangerous.. for example playing with an electrical cord, I have slapped his hand.

I think the key is... don't ever do it when you are angry.

What are your thoughts. Please include whether you are a parent or not in your answer.... I've found that many opinions I have had have changed now that I am a parent.

Chalk me up for the spank side.

[blue2kdave]

Originally posted by untsig
im not a parent but i have plenty of experience on this subject

let me tell you one thing, i love my father with all my heart and respect the hell out of him. but because i grew up my entire life being flat out AFRAID of my dad and the sound of his big belt buckle, i cant hardly show my dad how i feel about him.

i think my dad finally realized that he had been the father that he grew up hating and still feels bad about it.

in my mind i've forgiven my dad but i have yet to be able to tell him that.

voilence in youth is NOT GOOD.

Right with you so far. My relationship with my father has never recovered.

that being said, i think SPANKING is a must. BUT there is a huge difference bewteen SPANKING and BEATING your child.

I my opinion, you don't add up now. I have a two and half year old, and have never had to use force with him. I use a very soft and kind voice with him most of the time, and so my deep, serious voice stops him in his tracks.

There is no huge difference here at all. Physically striking is just that, no matter what you call it.

[blue2kdave]

Originally posted by pena2050
I have a 2 year old baby. I don't spank him and I have no desire to.

I haven't had any problems controlling his behavior. When you give children options that are acceptable to you and them, there is no need to hit.

If he wants to eat ice cream on the sofa and I don't want him to, I tell him I don't want him to do that because he will spill, and I take him back to the table. If he insists I give him a choice, 'you can climb on the sofa or you can eat your ice cream at the table.' He chooses what he wants to do. This is a simple example, but it works for everything.

I can't really imagine an instance where I would want to hit or threaten him.

And children who are abused and even spanked are more antisocial, they are more likely to be depressed, less successful in school, and more likely to hit or abuse their parents when they are elderly. But if they do, it won't mean they don't love you, right?

This is right on. See my post above. For those of you arguing that kids need it, or that its not abuse, I fear you may find out your actions have unintended results.

[aplnub]

Not to get to far off base but people, you don't have to be spanked to crumble your relationship with your parents. Verbal assualts are probably far worse IMHO.

And, I am not trying to be a butt here so keep that in mind, but if your relationship with your dad (I can relate) was crapped on by his belt, there was proably an underlying problem that caused this. i.e. he may have been raised like a slave and verbally abused causing him not to show feelings wether or not he whipped you til you couldn't sit. Not trying to say anyone is wrong because they are not, just saying from my experience the spanking part was not the real culprit...

[blue2kdave]

Originally posted by aplnub
Not to get to far off base but people, you don't have to be spanked to crumble your relationship with your parents. Verbal assualts are probably far worse IMHO.

And, I am not trying to be a butt here so keep that in mind, but if your relationship with your dad (I can relate) was crapped on by his belt, there was proably an underlying problem that caused this. i.e. he may have been raised like a slave and verbally abused causing him not to show feelings wether or not he whipped you til you couldn't sit. Not trying to say anyone is wrong because they are not, just saying from my experience the spanking part was not the real culprit...

Who knows, you may have a point here. I got both.

[Vox Barbara]

Originally posted by Chucker
Um, what age children are we talking about?
As i said in my first comment, my girl is 8 yr old (well, 2 weeks ahead;))

Generally, and i write it on any wall if you don't mind,
spanking is mere losing self control and a visible expression of a
violent character too. And additionally, i can't come up with a
potential mindset, wherein "spanking" does any good, but spawning
Violence. And except of *self satisfaction*.
If you need additional *self satisfaction* than spanking a 3 year
old is good for you. This is my answer to anybody who asks to
spank or not to spank.

(I don't mean you personally, forgive me, if you thought first, chucker;)).

[Vox Barbara]

Originally posted by blue2kdave
Right with you so far. My relationship with my father has never recovered.

[B]

I my opinion, you don't add up now. I have a two and half year old, and have never had to use force with him. I use a very soft and kind voice with him most of the time, and so my deep, serious voice stops him in his tracks.

There is no huge difference here at all. Physically striking is just that, no matter what you call it.
Same mindset. ;)

[Chucker]

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
As i said in my first comment, my girl is 8 yr old (well, 2 weeks ahead;))

Generally, and i write it on any wall if you don't mind,
spanking is mere losing self control and a visible expression of a
violent character too. And additionally, i can't come up with a
potential mindset, wherein "spanking" does any good, but spawning
Violence. And except of *self satisfaction*.
If you need additional *self satisfaction* than spanking a 3 year
old is good for you. This is my answer to anybody who asks to
spank or not to spank.

(I don't mean you personally, forgive me, if you thought first, chucker;)).

Yep, fully agreed (not that I have children yet, but I'm still curious about all this :) ). I'm still confused over your statement regarding "goals", however. What goals does your daughter have? If you were to ask her, what answer would you expect? Surely it can't be "to have a healthy and working relationship with my parents" or "to have a successful career, as well as a spouse I love, plus children"?

I'd imagine an 8-year old's goals would amount to "to collect all pieces of {random collectible items, e.g. Pokemon}" or "to have lots of cool friends to hang out with", neither of which probably cause much stir with parents to begin with.

So, please clarify what you mean by "goals" that parents and children need to work on together. Thanks! :)

[Chris Cuilla]

Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Generally, and i write it on any wall if you don't mind,
spanking is mere losing self control and a visible expression of a
violent character too.

Hmmm...smells like...hasty generalization.

[Chucker]

Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Hmmm...smells like...hasty generalization.

Actually, smells like "personal opinion". ;)

[skatman]

Originally posted by BRussell
I already did - look on the previous page. It was the article I was referring to in my response to you.

I read over the article and, while it maybe correct from mathematical perspective, it has very little application in real life.

Since in both groups (spanked and not spanked) there are cases where aggression and and is not manifested later in life, one can only conclude that spanking is NOT the only factor.

Also, this information is useless unless you're trying to educate enough children at the same time to have a statistically significant group (which is why corporal punishment should never be allowed in schools). In a typical family the number of children falls far below statistically significant sample and so one can not use information gathered using such methods.


And additionally, i can't come up with a
potential mindset, wherein "spanking" does any good, but spawning
Violence. And except of *self satisfaction*.


It is unwise to think that just because you "can't come up with a potential mindset", that one can't exist.
I can give you a math problem that you can't solve... does that mean that the math problem is unsolvable?
More likely, it is an indication of a limiation of one's mindset.

The same thing with violence... violence, self-control, and spanking, while can be related, don't always have to be.
There is time for each and a wise person knows when to do what.

[Chris Cuilla]

BTW...wrt to the "violence card"...we should be clear on what "violent (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violent)" actually means:

1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack.
2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike.
3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall. See Synonyms at intense.
4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death.
5. Tending to distort or injure meaning, phrasing, or intent.

Anyone doing this with their children is abusing them and needs to be reported to the proper authorities.

This should also be distinguished from spanking.

[Chucker]

Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
This should also be distinguished from spanking.

It would help if you could specify why you feel that violence is a distinct concept from spanking.

[Chris Cuilla]

Originally posted by Chucker
It would help if you could specify why you feel that violence is a distinct concept from spanking.

Well, at least in the way that my wife and I have administered spankings, they are not:

1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack.
2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike.
3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall. See Synonyms at intense.
4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by skatman
I read over the article and, while it maybe correct from mathematical perspective, it has very little application in real life. Again, you're simply dismissing all of the research that's been done on this topic. And I mean all - that study was a review of the hundreds of existing studies on spanking. Those studies, which are mostly "real life" studies of how parents interact with their kids, show that spanking gets immediate compliance but has longer-term negative effects and no long-term positive effects (such as "education"). Dismiss the research in favor of your own opinion if you wish - you certainly wouldn't be the first - but recognize that that is what you are doing.Since in both groups (spanked and not spanked) there are cases where aggression and and is not manifested later in life, one can only conclude that spanking is NOT the only factor. Of course spanking is not the only factor leading to aggression, no one would ever suggest such an absurd thing, and that doesn't mean that spanking has no effect on aggression. Smoking isn't the only factor that leads to lung cancer and heart disease either, but that doesn't mean smoking doesn't cause lung cancer and heart disease.Also, this information is useless unless you're trying to educate enough children at the same time to have a statistically significant group (which is why corporal punishment should never be allowed in schools). In a typical family the number of children falls far below statistically significant sample and so one can not use information gathered using such methods.The studies examine groups of people using spanking vs not using spanking. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that statistically (and the experts who reviewed the paper and accepted it for publication agree). It still seems to me like you're simply stretching to find some reason to dismiss all the research on this topic.

[Placebo]

It's definitely a partnership. The parents and children have to be willing for there to be a good relationship between the two. As a kid I always hated adults who enjoyed exerting authority over kids.

[trumptman]

Originally posted by dmz
I'm just hoping Ann Coulter doesn't take the 'cigarette burn' approach in her rhetoric ---oh, wait.

Come now, the right deserves their BRussell's as well.:devil:

Love ya BRussell,:D (why do we still have no kissing smilie?!?)

Nick

[NOFEER]

so after all this discussion what cha gona do, after 3 pages isn't it time to fish or cut bait??? we rarely spank we get our point across in many ways but the biggest thing is mom and dad work together, set the rules , set expectations and dole out punishment quickly and BE CONSISTENT. even if one of us disagrees, we discuss it away from the kids then we show unity and in unity is strength

[Vox Barbara]

Originally posted by NOFEER
so after all this discussion what cha gona do, after 3 pages isn't it time to fish or cut bait??? we rarely spank we get our point across in many ways but the biggest thing is mom and dad work together, set the rules , set expectations and dole out punishment quickly and BE CONSISTENT. even if one of us disagrees, we discuss it away from the kids then we show unity and in unity is strength
very good closing words. ;)
Originally posted by Chucker
...
I'd imagine an 8-year old's goals would amount to "to collect all pieces of {random collectible items, e.g. Pokemon}" or "to have lots of cool friends to hang out with", neither of which probably cause much stir with parents to begin with.

So, please clarify what you mean by "goals" that parents and children need to work on together. Thanks! :) [/B]

Well, rok, dfiler, user23 and a few others said some remarkable
things about the subject, i'd pretty much sign in.
Maybe *Goals* is the wrong word i used in this context.
It sounds pretty *dramatic*, where i meant something
very basic. Maybe "common purpose" would have been
clearer.

Btw, sorry for delay, i was eventually a bit distracted by WC 2006 ;)

[skatman]

Again, you're simply dismissing all of the research that's been done on this topic.


Exactly which part of my post dismisses any research? I can only dismiss the research by challenging the methods or the data analysis, but I'm not.
However, when you review primary literature it is important to understand what questions is being asked and what question is being answered (the two are not always the same). And whether the answers are applicable to the questions at hand.


suggest such an absurd thing, and that doesn't mean that spanking has no effect on aggression.


That still doesn't tell me exactly what to do.. spank or notto spank...


Smoking isn't the only factor that leads to lung cancer and heart disease either, but that doesn't mean smoking doesn't cause lung cancer and heart disease.


Absence of something is not a proof. Science is only concerned with presence. Show me at least one publication which details direct mechaniwm how smoking cvauses cancer and I'll believe you.


The studies examine groups of people using spanking vs not using spanking. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that statistically (and the experts who reviewed the paper and accepted it for publication agree).
[/quote[
I agree. However, you have to realise the limitations of the applicability of these studies. If the number of kids is below suare root of the sample size, you're out of luck... sorry.
I'm a scientist in biotechnology (besides other things) from the side of chmical engineering, so I really know these math things.

[quote]
It still seems to me like you're simply stretching to find some reason to dismiss all the research on this topic.

Because I get asked by journals to review papers and I have to be professional and I have to know this shit!

[finboy]

Originally posted by BRussell
Parents who don't spank their kids are raising brats. Just talking never gets anything accommplished. You have to be physical or you're not going to make your point as a parent.



OK, I appreciate the humor, but I also {sigh} wanted to hear your OPINION. Yes, really. I'll read on.

At 2.5 years, we've all but dispensed with the spanking unless he is in a dangerous situation or is doing something to willfully disobey.

For those of you who say "talk to them" that may work later in life, but the little ones are usually too busy pitching a fit to listen. In those cases, drastic times call for drastic measures (time out crib). Sometimes a spanking is the only thing that gets their attention and focuses them on the problem at hand. In each case we explain why the punishment happened, and remind him of the punishment that's coming the next time he starts down that path. These days, the punishment "two-count" is usually enough to make him listen and think about his actions. Hey, he even helps me count! I say "one" and then I hear "two" from him. He gets the idea.

It's really great to be able to communicate with your child, but sometimes that communication has to be rapid and instinctual on their part. Hence absolutes like "Stop." That's a special word, and if he doesn't listen to it we punish him immediately.

Most of all, I think consistency is important. It pays off.

EDIT: After having read the thread.

BRussell, thanks for sending the other stuff along. Yes, really.

My only real complaint about the citations/research mentioned is that it doesn't present alternatives that are effective. In other words, we know that corporal punishment causes all these bad things, so the recommendation from the child development literature has to be that instead of corporal punishment we do technique X on a regular basis. If corporal punishment is done with other things, then technique X should fit in those situations as well. What's our technique X? What works as well as corporal punishment, and how did they possibly measure something like that consistently?

Also, from a methodology standpoint, you can always point to "corporal punishment" and then measure its "effects" without controlling for everything else that's not as easily categorized, such as bullying, nagging, guilting, other forms of mental abuse. It's hard to target and measure the detrimental/positive effects of other childrearing techniques (or the lack of outcomes/discipline of any kind) because these methods are harder to isolate and describe in a narrow fashion. After all, how many parents will acknowledge guilting their kids in order to get obedience? How many will acknowledge other types of abuse and/or manipulation? How many researchers will identify children who had poor development due to the lack of imposed discipline, whatever the type available?

I haven't read the stuff in a while, but it's just like any other research -- subject to learned interpretation.

Thanks for chiming in.

[L.R.60]

There are certainly some kids that benefit from getting spanked. I guess you have to wait and find out, but if your kid is a brat, then you'll do worse for yourself, everyone else, and for the kid if you don't spank. In these cases it is inconsiderate not to spank.

I used some of your keywords to find out if there are examples of those brats in the web.
The result was astonishing. Here are just two examples:

http://static.flickr.com/48/119925532_327d096d1b_o.jpg

http://image53.webshots.com/453/5/73/82/2153573820098283600oxYHJN_fs.jpg

[Placebo]

I don't get it.

[mydo]

I have a two and a half year old and never felt the need to spank him. We do "time out" but don't use it much anymore because he gives us little cause. Maybe he's an easy kid but he listens to me and I listen to him.

When he has a tantrum and is very upset ... hitting him will only make him more upset. Why not just say, "Stop your crying or I'll give you a reason." How intelligent. Rather than that I try to calm him down which is what I really want anyway. If he pitches a fit in public, which doesn't happen often, we just leave.

When he runs in the street, which he doesn't do, I run after him and yell "STOP". We talked to our son a lot about holding hands in the parking lot. Now it's an important part of his life.

When he throws food, he gets his plate taken away. If he's still hungry he can have one bite at a time. But he doesn't really throw food.

These two year olds are a whole bunch more fucking smarter than anyone gives them credit for. I encourage future parents to be on the look out for when their child first starts to manipulate them. At that age they can be reasoned with. It happens between one and two years old.

It's funny when people say they use spanking as a "last resort". Of course it's the last resort. What would you do next? Lock them in the closet? Beat them?


Enjoy spanking your kids 'cause they sure wont enjoy it.

[greglo]

Well I didn't read all the posts, but I thought I'd contribute anyway.

I am in no way a father..or even close to being one since I'm 16. I also don't really intend to have kids. Regardless, it will ALWAYS depend on the type of child you have. My brother and I never really got spanked, if we did something wrong, we were 'growled at' or given a slap on the hand. Now, I'm not a scallywag (honest :D), but I can tell you that from some kids I go to school with (not a bad school either), they get ABSOLUTELY NO punishment of any kind. This leads to serious..um...assholes?

I guess what I'm trying to say is:
1. The amount of punishment needed is dependant on the child's personality (i.e. a 'naturally' good kid will likely never need to be HARSHLY punished), and the childs actions (i.e.vandalising the house and breaking windows deserves a harsher punishment than getting 40% on a maths test). I guess thats obvious to most people though.
2. Beating is not acceptable. Ever.
3. Harsh punishments can lead to resentment...no punishment leads to dropkicks.
4. Spanking on the head, etc, is not right.
5. ALL children require discipline, not necessarily punishment, but discipline. Discipline referring to rules and boundaries. This is the most important thing and like someone said before, parents should learn to say "no".