Gitmo Suicides 'Acts of War' [Archive]

Harald

06-11-2006, 04:43 AM

Yes, according to the US military when 3 people without hope of release or trial -- and quite possibly innocent -- kill themselves in Guantanamo it's not desperation but an act of assymetric warfare.

I am more and more worried. Language is being killed more then ever before

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5068606.stm

segovius

06-11-2006, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by Harald
Yes, according to the US military when 3 people without hope of release or trial -- and quite possibly innocent -- kill themselves in Guantanamo it's not desperation but an act of assymetric warfare.

I am more and more worried. Language is being killed more then ever before

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5068606.stm

I'm kind of more concerned about the people being killed.

Seems like in this case they might have been 'suicided'. And no, I have no evidence other than the fact that the prisoners at this Concentration Camp are the most securely held and most closely watched in the world.

The idea that they could even get the means to commit suicide let alone attempt to carry it out undetected in three separate areas is more laughable than the 'Zarqawi tried to bolt from his stretcher with his wooden leg after the bombing' story.

Let's just realize who were dealing with here: Nazis.

Then let's decide who's on who's side and who wants to do something about it.

Harald

06-11-2006, 08:29 AM

I'm more worried about the language.

We're in agreement -- but for different reasons. This is facism. Not the death of people in prison, which happens all the time, but the death of people in THAT situation, and the subsequent description of their deaths as aggressive acts.

Something is stinking. Stinking a little worse every day.

Hassan i Sabbah

06-11-2006, 11:57 AM

Apparently not even an act of war now, but a PR move:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5069230.stm

There have been dozens of suicide attempts at Guantanamo, apparently, but the moment someone's actually successful it's 'a PR move'.

This administration is turning America into a despicable thing.

addabox

06-11-2006, 04:32 PM

Apparently this is to be the official response to any language or action that undermines the administrations policies.

Every critic is a cynical glory hound. Every activist is a camera seeking publicity whore. Every statement of principle is a contrived political stunt.

And now, God help us, suicide...... because men who face a lifetime of secret imprisonment without trial are certainly terrorist schemers one and all.

I wonder how long before someone suggest that sickle cell anemia is a ploy by black people to garner sympathy.

southside grabowski

06-11-2006, 06:58 PM

Suicide terrorists killing themselves? The left better call for hearings.

addabox

06-11-2006, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by southside grabowski
Suicide terrorists killing themselves? The left better call for hearings.

Try to keep up Moe. These are people who have been imprisoned without trial, with access to council, or charges.

That's right, only 10 of 490 detainees at Gitmo have been charged with anything.

But they all must guilty, right, or they wouldn't have been picked up?

Well, accept for the 141 the Pentagon is releasing (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo25apr25,0,1113317.story?coll=la-home-headlines), after four years.

Oh, and the four chinese guys (http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=1997083&page=1) that really nobody though were guilty of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that got held for four years just..... because.

And the hundreds of others already released without comment, without being charged, without access to due process, for varying lengths of time.

But I bet the guys who committed suicide were all "suicide bombers", right Moe?

sammi jo

06-11-2006, 07:56 PM

How sad. America, in its last throes of 'democracy'. What a waste.

We might as well have elected Saddam Hussein as president in 2004... same shit, different asshole.

Hassan i Sabbah

06-12-2006, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by southside grabowski
Suicide terrorists killing themselves? The left better call for hearings.
One of these 'suicide terrorists' was due to be released because he was believed to be safe. Only he didn't know it.

You're damn right I (on behalf of 'the left') want hearings.

sammi jo

06-12-2006, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by southside grabowski
Suicide terrorists killing themselves? The left better call for hearings. [/B]

Thought experiment.

Just for one short minute in your relatively comfortable Texan existence, imagine that a bunch of armed thugs suddenly broke your door down without warning, raped your wife/killed your family in the process and then beat the living hell out of you, blindfolded you and took you to somewhere unfamiliar, denied you any communication with the survivors amongst your loved ones, denied you any legal representation, and were not charged with any crime (because you hadn't committed any), your religious faith and customs were mocked and insulted daily, and you were also tortured and interrogated for many hours, daily. You were denied medical attention and fed unfamiliar food (or starve). Four years later, you were still in the same hot, humid no-man's land puratory, in an outdoor cell, with no hope of anything of seeing even a kangaroo court/military tribunal), let alone due process and the chance to defend yourself.

I imagine that under such horrific circumstances, you would wish to kill yourself. Who wouldnt? Death would be infinitely preferable to the living hell the Bush Administration and the Pentagon arbitrarily serves up to these people, who are only there because their cowardly incarcerators dont have the evidence to charge them with anything. If there is true evil in the world, look as far as Washington DC.

:(

Aurora

06-12-2006, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by sammi jo
How sad. America, in its last throes of 'democracy'. What a waste.

We might as well have elected Saddam Hussein as president in 2004... same shit, different asshole. This is what happens when you let corporations make every god darn decision. Corporations could give a sh.. about you , me or anyone else and the more power they take from the people the more say they have in govt action. Bush is a corporate puppet with Cheney pulling his strings. Yea we have a sad F. govt but lets face it the corporations own the republicans and the democrats. Only during elections do politicians pretend to be interested. Just look at the US borders.

southside grabowski

06-12-2006, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by sammi jo
Thought experiment.

Just for one short minute in your relatively comfortable Texan existence, imagine that a bunch of armed thugs suddenly broke your door down without warning, raped your wife/killed your family in the process and then beat the living hell out of you, blindfolded you and took you to somewhere unfamiliar, denied you any communication with the survivors amongst your loved ones, denied you any legal representation, and were not charged with any crime (because you hadn't committed any), your religious faith and customs were mocked and insulted daily, and you were also tortured and interrogated for many hours, daily. You were denied medical attention and fed unfamiliar food (or starve). Four years later, you were still in the same hot, humid no-man's land puratory, in an outdoor cell, with no hope of anything of seeing even a kangaroo court/military tribunal), let alone due process and the chance to defend yourself.

I imagine that under such horrific circumstances, you would wish to kill yourself. Who wouldnt? Death would be infinitely preferable to the living hell the Bush Administration and the Pentagon arbitrarily serves up to these people, who are only there because their cowardly incarcerators dont have the evidence to charge them with anything. If there is true evil in the world, look as far as Washington DC.

:(

Is this how they were treated? We raped their wives, killed their families and beat them? We not most scooped up off of the battle field? My understanding is that we are giving them food appropriate to their cultures. I belive thay also have access to appropriate holy books.

Harald

06-12-2006, 01:50 PM

Yes, we killed their families. Yes, we sexually abused their wives. Yes, we murdered many in Afghanistan before they got anywhere. Yes, many of them were innocent.

You can find proof of the above from reputable sources, maybe even Fox.

This is why 'the left' is pissed off Moe -- when will you get it. Many Americans (I'm not one) on the left are patriots and want to see the same as you -- no more terror, peace in the world, peace at home, American values defended. But 'the left' won't sanction using their tactics to beat them, and KNOW that those tactics make the whole fucking situation worse.

southside grabowski

06-12-2006, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Harald
Yes, we killed their families. Yes, we sexually abused their wives. Yes, we murdered many in Afghanistan before they got anywhere. Yes, many of them were innocent.

You can find proof of the above from reputable sources, maybe even Fox.

This is why 'the left' is pissed off Moe -- when will you get it. Many Americans (I'm not one) on the left are patriots and want to see the same as you -- no more terror, peace in the world, peace at home, American values defended. But 'the left' won't sanction using their tactics to beat them, and KNOW that those tactics make the whole fucking situation worse.

Who raped their wives?

segovius

06-12-2006, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by southside grabowski
Who raped their wives?

US Mercanaries and Army Personnel (http://www.aztlan.net/nineyearoldrapevictim.htm).

They seem to be pro-equal opportunities though on the plus side. They are raping young boys too and unmarried women are not discriminated against in this regard either.

They really meant it when they said they were exporting western values didn't they?

southside grabowski

06-12-2006, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by segovius
US Mercanaries and Army Personnel (http://www.aztlan.net/nineyearoldrapevictim.htm).

They seem to be pro-equal opportunities though on the plus side. They are raping young boys too and unmarried women are not discriminated against in this regard either.

They really meant it when they said they were exporting western values didn't they?

With that I think it is time for someone to link that porn video of an Italian porn star in a head scarf being "raped" by soldiers.

dmz

06-12-2006, 02:23 PM

southside garbowski, I think segovius is either under the influence, and yanking your chain, or just yanking your chain.

Here is the link on that propaganda he linked to:

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38583

Following WND's expose of the photos as fake, Jihad Unspun floated a conspiracy theory that the photos are of real rape, posted on pornography sites to torment the victims and their kin. Aztlan.net is floating a similar conspiracy theory, but naming "nefarious Jews" as the conspiratorial pornographers.

one more:

http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2006/0410nj1.htm

segovius

06-12-2006, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by southside grabowski
With that I think it is time for someone to link that porn video of an Italian porn star in a head scarf being "raped" by soldiers.

Best to leave your fantasies out of this - I know you would never be anywhere near a war-zone yourself but if you think that ANY military force occupying a country does not commit rape against the citizens of that country then you know even less about your pet subject than you have proved to be possible.

All military commanders - including US ones - acknowledge that rape is virtually a by-product of war and almost impossible to eradicate.

Your faith and delusion is touching bit that's all it is - faith and delusion.

I don't expect you to address these issues - and certainly not care about them - but you could possibly refrain from ill-informed woolly non-thinking.

Some people here still have a semblance of humanity - and we want to keep it.

segovius

06-12-2006, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by dmz
southside garbowski, I think segovius is either under the influence, and yanking your chain, or just yanking your chain.

Here is the link on that propaganda he linked to:

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38583

one more:

http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2006/0410nj1.htm

It was a link at random - I could find many more. But I won't - and you know why? Because there is no point for you and Moe. None at all. You are the very people who go out of their way to vindicate any atrocity of the administration by saying it didn't happen.

You may actually believe it - though I would suspect not - but either way in my book people like you are culpable. Responsible for the deaths and atrocities you deny.

And that's why - BECAUSE you won't even consider it.

If you'd have been in Nazi Germany you would have been denying the rumours of the camps all because of 'patriotism'. And that is why you are directly responsible for every atrocity, every abuse and every murder.

Because to you those people are 'disappeared' in your mind, just like they are disappeared in reality because they are dead.

Your obfuscations are sometimes amusing because you are so foolish but sometimes they are just obscene.

dmz

06-12-2006, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by segovius
It was a link at random...

Well, then, how about one from WSJ, CNN or the NYT?

segovius

06-12-2006, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by dmz
Well, then, how about one from WSJ, CNN or the NYT?

As I said - I regard you as someone who wouldn't care one way or the other and who would probably (secretly) love it the more atrocities there are against 'your enemy'. So why would i bother playing your silly games? I know where you stand and you are both unwilling and incapable of changing your view.

But I've got a better idea anyway. You state categorically here and now that no rapes have been committed by US troops in Iraq and we'll take it from there.

Save they or not?

Simple yes or no.

dmz

06-12-2006, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by segovius
As I said - I regard you as someone who wouldn't care one way or the other and who would probably (secretly) love it the more atrocities there are against 'your enemy'. So why would i bother playing your silly games? I know where you stand and you are both unwilling and incapable of changing your view.

But I've got a better idea anyway. You state categorically here and now that no rapes have been committed by US troops in Iraq and we'll take it from there.

Save they or not?

Simple yes or no.
How is it possible to leap from calling rape a tacitly official policy, to declaring it never happens?

segovius

06-12-2006, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by dmz
How is it possible to leap from calling rape a tacitly official policy, to declaring it never happens?

Nobody said that. You're floundering.

The question was:

Who raped their wives?

The answer was:

US Mercanaries and Army Personnel

So: yes or no?

southside grabowski

06-12-2006, 02:58 PM

Sego , Sego, Sego I don't for a moment deny that Iraqi woman may have been raped by American soldiers or contractors. If they were, I consider such acts crimes by the men involved. That is far from an oraganized, porn-induced Bosnia styled rape of Iraq (as in your link). We are smart enough to understand your points. We just don't agree with them.

dmz

06-12-2006, 02:59 PM

Segovius you're slipping. You linked to obvious propaganda that is absolute falsehood -- it's been discredited, and discredited several years ago at that.

You need to ask yourself why it was necessary to link to falsehoods to make your point.

segovius

06-12-2006, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by dmz
Segovius you're slipping. You linked to obvious propaganda that is absolute falsehood -- it's been discredited, and discredited several years ago at that.

You need to ask yourself why it was necessary to link to falsehoods to make your point.

No I don't - I need to ask myself why you are denying that rapes occur in Iraq - oh wait, no I don't, I know why.....

dmz

06-12-2006, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by segovius
No I don't - I need to ask myself why you are denying that rapes occur in Iraq - oh wait, no I don't, I know why.....
Oh stop it, you need to be more subtle about this if you're going to be successful.

Honestly, if I didn't know any better, I would begin to suspect that you where doing this in some quasi-official capacity as an activist. And Hypothetically Speaking it would be incumbent on you to scrutinize more closely what your imam or favorite mullah was telling you to post here.

I would certainly hope you weren't doing this for sport. It's beneath you.

sammi jo

06-13-2006, 01:25 AM

Of course this stuff happens.

When a party (in this case the US military and guards at the Gitmo concentration camp) have absolute powers and are neither policed nor accountable to anyone, then they have a blank check to do whatever they want. In the knowledge that any investigation into abuse, torture, deaths etc. will be half-baked and severely hampered due to the guilty parties closing rank, combined with the standard procedure of invoking "national security concern" to protect the guilty parties from prosecution, it is guaranteed that people in positions of absolute power, as in this case, will abuse that power. It's a part of the human condition, and it happens everywhere and in all cultures; we are no exception.

segovius

06-14-2006, 02:21 PM

Starting to look like it might have been murder..... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5079744.stm)

FormerLurker

06-14-2006, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by segovius
Starting to look like it might have been murder..... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5079744.stm) Because a father says "my son would never commit suicide"?

C'mon, Sego - I'm no Bush apologist, and I'm not ruling out the possibility - but you weaken your credibility by latching on to this claim by one of the victim's fathers and saying "it might have been murder".

southside grabowski

06-14-2006, 03:01 PM

Yesterday's hotair dealt with this issue

http://hotair.com/archives/vent/2006/06/13/guantanamo-bay-suicides/

I'm sure you are all interested in watching it:D

sammi jo

06-14-2006, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by FormerLurker
[B]Because a father says "my son would never commit suicide"?

C'mon, Sego - I'm no Bush apologist, and I'm not ruling out the possibility - but you weaken your credibility by latching on to this claim by one of the victim's fathers and saying "it might have been murder".

It's not exactly as if prisoners at Gitmo haven't been murdered already. That ghastly case in 2003 (where a prisoner was fed into a sugar-cane chipper alive, hands and feet bound with strips of rags, with uniformed personnel looking on while yelling anti-Islamic insults) has gotta be the most gruesome 60 second movies out there. If he was a terrorist, he hadn't been charged with any crime, such a fate is beyond all bounds... but the likely probabilty that the unfortunate man was completely innocent makes my blood boil. I think anyone who wasn't completely divorced from their humanity would react the same, even an rabid Arab-hating Neocon.

thuh Freak

06-15-2006, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by sammi jo
It's not exactly as if prisoners at Gitmo haven't been murdered already. That ghastly case in 2003 (where a prisoner was fed into a sugar-cane chipper alive, hands and feet bound with strips of rags, with uniformed personnel looking on while yelling anti-Islamic insults) has gotta be the most gruesome 60 second movies out there. If he was a terrorist, he hadn't been charged with any crime, such a fate is beyond all bounds... but the likely probabilty that the unfortunate man was completely innocent makes my blood boil. I think anyone who wasn't completely divorced from their humanity would react the same, even an rabid Arab-hating Neocon.
source?

segovius

06-15-2006, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by FormerLurker
Because a father says "my son would never commit suicide"?

C'mon, Sego - I'm no Bush apologist, and I'm not ruling out the possibility - but you weaken your credibility by latching on to this claim by one of the victim's fathers and saying "it might have been murder".

I implied it might have been murder straight off in this thread.

I'm afraid the facts are unpleasant but I don't make them - I wish they were otherwise and if I had anything to do with it it would be, but as of now:

If someone is in US detention without trial there is a high chance they are innocent.

If the US administration makes a statement there is a very high chance it is a lie.

If someone dies in one of the US camps there is a high chance it was murder.

It really is that simple.

Chris Cuilla

06-15-2006, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by segovius
If someone is in US detention without trial there is a high chance they are innocent.

If the US administration makes a statement there is a very high chance it is a lie.

If someone dies in one of the US camps there is a high chance it was murder.

Fallacious assumption.

Fallacious assumption.

Fallacious assumption.