Ahmadinejad: mistranslated and calumniated....

[segovius]

Ok, it's been known for a long time.

It's been mentioned repeatedly.

Most informed/sane people know it is just more lies.

This we know.

So please - in the name of God, Pan, Apollo, Sun Ra or Cthulu - can we please stop quoting this fatuous and pathetic cliché. Enough already.

:no:

But Iran surely has a right to nuclear energy?
Ahmadinejad wants Israel wiped off the map

Was that a Palestinian family on the beach that just got blown to Zeta Reticuli?
Ahmadinejad wants Israel wiped off the map

My Great-Aunt Hortense's dog is lame in one leg....
Ahmadinejad wants Israel wiped off the map

Could I have two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please?
Ahmadinejad wants Israel wiped off the map

Cease this lunacy forthwith - basta ya

President Ahmadinejad never said he wants Israel wiped off the map

I know the Stepford Citizens lifestyle is de rigeur these days (well, it would have to be wouldn't it) and as I am tolerant of other's lifestyle choices I will not ask anyone to stop yearning for the mass-slaughter of Iranians or more killing/supression of the ethno-religious grouping of their choice - but please, let's leave out the tired, hackneyed cliches. Especially when they ar patently false.

The facts are that Israel and the US deliberately mistranslated his words and embarked on a massive campaign of lies to stoke up support for more mass killing.

I'm not asking for acknowledgment or acceptance of the true reasons behind the current lie - obviously - just please stop the parroting. It's all I ask.

Thank you for your co-operation.

Ahmadinejad never said "Wipe Israel Off The Map" (http://informationclearinghouse.info/article13641.htm)

[SDW2001]

Objection overruled. Information clearinghouse must never be linked to again.

[Aurora]

Knowing he didnt say that I feel much better with Iran making the big one now:rolleyes:

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by Aurora
Knowing he didnt say that I feel much better with Iran making the big one now:rolleyes:

Yeah me too. It's a good thing he didn't supplement that rhetoric with other even more inflammatory statements.

[sammi jo]

Not only has Ahmadinejad been misrepresented, the Iranian intent of more peaceful coexistence in the region WAS IGNORED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150355517833&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull) Even the mainstream Jewish media report what the US cowardly weasel-media daren't.

The Bush Administration does not want peace in the Middle East. They never have and they never will: the promotion of fear, and conflict against a bogus or manufactured "enemy" is their lifeblood.

How many times does one have to state what should be blindingly obvious? What's the matter with Kansas?

[e1618978]

Originally posted by segovius
Ahmadinejad never said "Wipe Israel Off The Map" (http://informationclearinghouse.info/article13641.htm)

"the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time"

How is that different from "wiped off the map"? In both cases his intention is to destroy Israel.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by e1618978
"the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time"

How is that different from "wiped off the map"? In both cases his intention is to destroy Israel.

WTF are you talking about? The *regime* does NOT mean the entire country. The regime means the government, the police, the army. It means East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.

And since when did 'pages of time' become 'wiped off the map'?

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
WTF are you talking about? The *regime* does NOT mean the entire country. The regime means the government, the police, the army. It means East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.

And since when did 'pages of time' become 'wiped off the map'?

Apologist.

[giant]

FYI: this whole thing resulted in a massive flame war between Christopher Hitchens and Juan Cole a couple months ago when this first came out. Anyone interested in this should probably dig up the old posts, articles and interviews with them cussing each other out about it.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
WTF are you talking about? The *regime* does NOT mean the entire country. The regime means the government, the police, the army. It means East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.

And since when did 'pages of time' become 'wiped off the map'?

A country is a pollitical entity, which he wants to destroy. I doubt that he wants to create a new body of water where Israel used to be (or did you mean to imply some 3rd alternative to destroying the actual land, and destroying the pollitical entity of Israel).

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by e1618978
[B]A country is a pollitical entity

Wrong. A regime is a temporary employee of the employer otherwise known as the society. Just like with any other employer ever hired by some employer, this one may turn out to be a diligent, worthy employee or it may turn out to be a whacko that acts nice in front of the boss (the people) but tortures other employees and customers.

A country is its society and its institutions. The society is the boss; the institutions are just there to do the job they've been hired for. The state exists for the society, the society doesn't exist for the state.

which he wants to destroy.

Wrong. He only mentions making it a history in Jerusalem. And as you may know or not know, Israel is bigger than just Jerusalem.

I doubt that he wants to create a new body of water where Israel used to be (or did you mean to imply some 3rd alternative to destroying the actual land, and destroying the pollitical entity of Israel).

No, not create a new body or destroy anything; merely expell the occupying apparattus known as the state and its military. This is what he actually said.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
He only mentions making it a history in Jerusalem. And as you may know or not know, Israel is bigger than just Jerusalem.

If I say "I want to remove the mugger who took my wallet from all time" that means I want to kill him.

He said the same thing about Israel - "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".

"The regime occupying Jerusalem" is just the identification of who he wants to kill, it does not mean that he just wants them to stop occupying Jerusalem.

So he wants to do to Israel what we did to Iraq.

[Nightcrawler]

Originally posted by e1618978
If I say "I want to remove the mugger who took my wallet from all time" that means I want to kill him.

He said the same thing about Israel - "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".

"The regime occupying Jerusalem" is just the identification of who he wants to kill, it does not mean that he just wants them to stop occupying Jerusalem.

So he wants to do to Israel what we did to Iraq.

Yes, that about hits the nail on its head.

Iran's leader is a staunch anti-zionist and obviously wants the zionistic regime that is governing Israel and occupying the Westbank, Gaza and Golan gone for all times.

But as martialic and uncompromising his stance is it's a far cry from the wrong translation that he wants "Israel wiped off the map", which would make him not only an antizionist but also an antisemit.

Nightcrawler

[segovius]

I am anti-Zionist. I want Zionism to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-Fascist. I want Fascism to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-Rascism. I want Racism to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-neocon. I want Neocons to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-Blair. I want Blair to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-Bush. I want Bush to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-non-thinking right-wing sheep-like posts. I want non-thinking right-wing sheep-like posts to vanish from the pages of time.

Actually, all these things are pretty much the same one thing aren't they?

[Powerdoc]

vanish of the page of times.
Does it means erased from the past present and future ?

It means that those people would have never existed, that history should be rewrite ?

Just wondering

[groverat]

Did Cole get drunk simply by talking with Hitchens? I hear his breath is flammable.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by segovius
I am anti-Zionist. I want Zionism to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-Fascist. I want Fascism to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-Rascism. I want Racism to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-neocon. I want Neocons to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-Blair. I want Blair to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-Bush. I want Bush to vanish from the pages of time.

I am anti-non-thinking right-wing sheep-like posts. I want non-thinking right-wing sheep-like posts to vanish from the pages of time.

Actually, all these things are pretty much the same one thing aren't they?

This is such semantical bullshit, and I think you know it. If you want to play word games, that's fine, but it comes down to this:

Is Ahmadinejad an anti-semite? Yes.

Does he wish Israel would no longer exist? Yes.

Has he made threatening statements towards Israel? Yes.

Does he doubt the holocaust happened? Yes.

Is he pursuing nuclear weapons? Most likely.


So really, let's drop the whole "BUT HE WAS MISQUOTED--ON PURPOSE!" shit. You know who this guy is.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
vanish of the page of times.
Does it means erased from the past present and future ?

It means that those people would have never existed, that history should be rewrite ?

Just wondering

What does any propagandizing metaphor mean?

What does 'Bring em on' mean? That someone sends a van to pick up the terrorists and drive them here?

What does 'Mass Destruction' mean? That the sheep or masses are threatened?

What is 'vanish from page of the times'? To some it could mean that the Editor of a London newspaper takes greater control.....

That's the point: these things are ALL culturally conditioned and mean different things to 'them' as they do to 'us'.

The only hope for us now is to stop interpreting other cultural aspects in terms of our own (and vice versa) - I know it is a forlorn hope but there it is.....

[segovius]

Originally posted by SDW2001
This is such semantical bullshit, and I think you know it. If you want to play word games, that's fine, but it comes down to this:

Is Ahmadinejad an anti-semite? Yes.

How do you know? You don;t. You just believe it because youhave been spoon-fed it by sources which you have learned not to focus on wioth any degree of criticism.

As it happens these forces have agendas and are anti-Ahmadinejad because he is a threat to them. Perhaps it merely depends on what side you are on - you could just say that, more honest.

But I say he is not an anti-Semite (not that I accept the sloganized buzz-word anyway) as that is what any-one is called who criticizes Israel or Zionism.

So that's strike one.

Does he wish Israel would no longer exist? Yes.

No. He has not said this.

This is what this thread is about. Wakey-wakey.

Strike two.

Has he made threatening statements towards Israel? Yes.

Dubious. He has threatened the Zionist regime - which is good because they learned virtually all they know from the Third Reich. Strange how the oppressed so often adopt the attitudes of their oppressors.

So he has threatened Zionists. Good. As Israel can in a certain way be associated with Zionists then you have a (dubious) point which could at a stretch be argued.

Does he doubt the holocaust happened? Yes.

No.

Strike three.

And with that ignominious flailing swing at the ball of reasoned argument , your attempts at rebuttal are wiped from the map of history: past, present and future.

:devil:

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by e1618978
So he wants to do to Israel what we did to Iraq.


How does that equate to 'wipe off the map'? As far as I can see, Iraq is still there and the Iraqis are still there.

Please. You're arguing the wrong thing.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by SDW2001
Objection overruled. Information clearinghouse must never be linked to again.
Alert! Alert! No more linking to news sources that discredit my opinions! Effective immediate!

[Placebo]

Originally posted by e1618978
"the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time"

How is that different from "wiped off the map"? In both cases his intention is to destroy Israel.
Let's do a little bit of transposition here. What if our President said this:?

"The regime occupying Iraq must vanish from the page of time."

Well, sounds quite like something he might say, really.

I don't think even Harpers or the New York Times could misinterpret that as President Bush wanting to destroy Iraq, or that he was anti-Muslim. Really, it's like Ahmadinejad is trying to liberate Israel from its oppressive government!

So why are you interpreting his quote so drastically different from its meaning?

[rufusswan]

Damn, Placebo beat me to it! Ruined my day, but I did get a good chuckle.

Thank "thunk" you hear is the sound of a hammer hitting the nail right on the head.

Paz

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Placebo
Let's do a little bit of transposition here. What if our President said this:?

"The regime occupying Iraq must vanish from the page of time."

Well, sounds quite like something he might say, really.

I don't think even Harpers or the New York Times could misinterpret that as President Bush wanting to destroy Iraq, or that he was anti-Muslim. Really, it's like Ahmadinejad is trying to liberate Israel from its oppressive government!

So why are you interpreting his quote so drastically different from its meaning?

Are you sure that you are replying to the right person? I already said that the Iranian president wants to do to Israel what we did to Iraq - I don't think that we disagree there.

Although, now that I think of it, I doubt that the demographics of Israel would be unchanged if Iran invaded, unlike Iraq after the US invasion. The arabs have gotten a little more subtle since the 1967 declaration "we will saturate Israeli soil with jewish blood", but I think that their basic feelings are the same now as then.

[southside grabowski]

Originally posted by sammi jo

The Bush Administration does not want peace in the Middle East. They never have and they never will: the promotion of fear, and conflict against a bogus or manufactured "enemy" is their lifeblood.

How many times does one have to state what should be blindingly obvious? What's the matter with Kansas?

The enemy is real. The enemy is not Iraq or Iran or Syria. The enemy knows no national border. The enemy is radical Islam. Ahmadinejad represents radical Islam and therefore is the enemy and must be eliminated. I suspect the folks up in Kansas see that quite well. We were reminded of it in Texas this weekend when on of our local soldiers was decapitated. We are not too interested in sensitivity and philosophical bull right now.

You go on protecting us from Bush and the evil international corporations. Our troops will continue to protect us from those who want to cut our heads off. It’s past time we put aside our inhibitions and let these savages seen our military superiority a little clearer.

[jimmac]

Originally posted by southside grabowski
The enemy is real. The enemy is not Iraq or Iran or Syria. The enemy knows no national border. The enemy is radical Islam. Ahmadinejad represents radical Islam and therefore is the enemy and must be eliminated. I suspect the folks up in Kansas see that quite well. We were reminded of it in Texas this weekend when on of our local soldiers was decapitated. We are not too interested in sensitivity and philosophical bull right now.

You go on protecting us from Bush and the evil international corporations. Our troops will continue to protect us from those who want to cut our heads off. It’s past time we put aside our inhibitions and let these savages seen our military superiority a little clearer.

Moe,

Well we've had soldiers from Oregon killed over there also. I think it's terrible. I think it was a waste. I don't think anyone should have to die over there. By the way I love the way you lump them all together in a sort of global contempt.

I think the real enemy is someone who attempts to paint things as they really aren't.

I'll leave you to guess who that is and why we shouldn't be over there at all.

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Poor Mr. Ahmadinejad, his speech is not being translated word for word.

All he said was, that the “régime occupying Jerusalem” (which is: the state of Israel) must “disappear” from the ”stage of time”. So, not only Israel's existence must be undone but it also should be erased from all memories as if it never had existed.
All he did was express his wish to see Israel vanish (for that is what anti-Zionism is all about, not that there's anything wrong with it: I could wish the end of the existence of Canada, Belgium, Iraq, Qatar, Pakistan, and the PRC, and no one should dare suspect me of any unsavoury sentiment).

Poor Mr. Ahmadinejad is being slandered.

But then so are Mssrs. Bush and Blair, so often equated in these fora with the worst totalitarian régimes of the twentieth century, real as well as literary.
And what about all those Zionists who are being equated with Nazis on this very page.

So poor Mr. Ahmadinejad is in very good company indeed.

[Placebo]

Can't the world just get along?

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by segovius
How do you know? You don;t. You just believe it because youhave been spoon-fed it by sources which you have learned not to focus on wioth any degree of criticism.

As it happens these forces have agendas and are anti-Ahmadinejad because he is a threat to them. Perhaps it merely depends on what side you are on - you could just say that, more honest.

But I say he is not an anti-Semite (not that I accept the sloganized buzz-word anyway) as that is what any-one is called who criticizes Israel or Zionism.

So that's strike one.



No. He has not said this.

This is what this thread is about. Wakey-wakey.

Strike two.



Dubious. He has threatened the Zionist regime - which is good because they learned virtually all they know from the Third Reich. Strange how the oppressed so often adopt the attitudes of their oppressors.

So he has threatened Zionists. Good. As Israel can in a certain way be associated with Zionists then you have a (dubious) point which could at a stretch be argued.



No.

Strike three.

And with that ignominious flailing swing at the ball of reasoned argument , your attempts at rebuttal are wiped from the map of history: past, present and future.

:devil:

You're fucking delusional. You cannot possibly believe this is all some sort of media created perception.

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by Placebo
Let's do a little bit of transposition here. What if our President said this:?

"The regime occupying Iraq must vanish from the page of time."

Well, sounds quite like something he might say, really.

I don't think even Harpers or the New York Times could misinterpret that as President Bush wanting to destroy Iraq, or that he was anti-Muslim. Really, it's like Ahmadinejad is trying to liberate Israel from its oppressive government!

So why are you interpreting his quote so drastically different from its meaning?

You're delusional too. It's not just the government he wants gone, and you know it.

[jimmac]

Originally posted by SDW2001
You're delusional too. It's not just the government he wants gone, and you know it.


You're all delusional! He, he!

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
And what about all those Zionists who are being equated with Nazis on this very page.

Well, you learn from your enemies more than you learn from your friends.

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
And what about all those Zionists who are being equated with Nazis on this very page.
Well, you learn from your enemies more than you learn from your friends.
So you should have learned a lot from me, and yet…

[Powerdoc]

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Poor Mr. Ahmadinejad, his speech is not being translated word for word.

All he said was, that the “régime occupying Jerusalem” (which is: the state of Israel) must “disappear” from the ”stage of time”. So, not only Israel's existence must be undone but it also should be erased from all memories as if it never had existed.
All he did was express his wish to see Israel vanish (for that is what anti-Zionism is all about, not that there's anything wrong with it: I could wish the end of the existence of Canada, Belgium, Iraq, Qatar, Pakistan, and the PRC, and no one should dare suspect me of any unsavoury sentiment).



Exactly my point but explained in a far better english.

[segovius]

And meanwhile, the regime that everyone is hand-wringing over and rushing to protect from a bad man's nasty words is actually erasing Palestine from the pages of time....

It's ok though - they never claimed they would and everyone is denying they are.

Words are the real crime. But then again only certain words. Spoken by certain people.

[Frank777]

It's funny that when a national Canadian newspaper erroneously writes that Iran wants to make non-Christians wear special clothing, the whole matter can be put to rest in one news cycle, including quick and truthful comments from Iranian journalists, bloggers, local politicians and impartial Middle East observers.

However, when the President of Iran, in a major speech, is claimed to have made a despicable comment about erasing another country from world history, it takes a bunch of university-educated white guys weeks and months to decipher what he really, truly meant.

Like I said, it's funny that way.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Frank777
It's funny that when a national Canadian newspaper erroneously writes that Iran wants to make non-Christians wear special clothing, the whole matter can be put to rest in one news cycle, including quick and truthful comments from Iranian journalists, bloggers, local politicians and impartial Middle East observers.

However, when the President of Iran, in a major speech, is claimed to have made a despicable comment about erasing another country from world history, it takes a bunch of university-educated white guys weeks and months to decipher what he really, truly meant.

Like I said, it's funny that way.

Exactly my point.

For some reason matters about Israel cannot be put to rest in one news cycle - someone keeps the spin-cycle going.

Unfortunately that same someone is not interested in the truth like the bloggers and journalists - far from it.

[Frank777]

Methinks your head is stuck in the spin cycle.

How many bloggers and journalists took issue with the comment at the time it was said?

Everyone knew what he meant. Drawing some artificial line separating the Israeli 'regime' from the Jewish people is a weak interpretation at best.

[Frank777]

Originally posted by segovius
And meanwhile, the regime that everyone is hand-wringing over and rushing to protect from a bad man's nasty words is actually erasing Palestine from the pages of time....

By the way, as a political, self governing entity within the Middle East, Palestine does not have to be erased. It never existed.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Frank777
Methinks your head is stuck in the spin cycle.

How many bloggers and journalists took issue with the comment at the time it was said?

Everyone knew what he meant. Drawing some artificial line separating the Israeli 'regime' from the Jewish people is a weak interpretation at best.

My head is stuck in a spin cycle. Hopefully the operators of the machine can be terminated soon.

Re your question of how many bloggers: the same amount that see through the BS and propaganda.

Not many but some. The reason you don;t know of them is just more proof of the suppression of 'sensitive' issues and the degree to which you yourself buy into your local enfranchised 'truth-purveyors'.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Frank777
By the way, as a political, self governing entity within the Middle East, Palestine does not have to be erased. It never existed.

There you go - erased.

So easy when you know how.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
So you should have learned a lot from me, and yet…

Well, you don't even know me, so...

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Frank777
Everyone knew what he meant. Drawing some artificial line separating the Israeli 'regime' from the Jewish people is a weak interpretation at best.

In a self-governing entity (to use your parlance) that has a political system based on democratic principles, the line separating the regime and the people is not only not artificial; it's precisely the thing that makes the system work. The regime is temporary and is re-established in elections according to the will of the people. Thus it is not always the same - it is an evolving political apparatus.

For a guy that lives in a democratic society, you seem to harbor some pretty medieval opinions about the state, the society, and the separation between people and regime (or lack thereof). Frankly Frank, you need to read up on this thing called the Civic Contract. Interesting stuff.

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
So you should have learned a lot from me, and yet…
Well, you don't even know me, so...
Nor do I care to.
Of what you learnt from me or not, I can tell from your writing here.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein

Nor do I care to.

When making blanket statements, you should know the subject you're making the statements about.

Of what you learnt from me or not, I can tell from your writing here.

Good, because I never cared much about playing the oppressed victim in front of a group of people to extract some marginal benefits.

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
When making blanket statements, you should know the subject you're making the statements about.
I know about the subject I made a statement about (what you learnt from me) from your writing here. So I know enough.

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Of what you learnt from me or not, I can tell from your writing here.
Good, because I never cared much about playing the oppressed victim in front of a group of people to extract some marginal benefits.
Not that your last sentence has any relevency to the above, yet if it makes you feel better, good for you then.

[Nightcrawler]

Originally posted by Frank777
It's funny that when a national Canadian newspaper erroneously writes that Iran wants to make non-Christians wear special clothing, ...

Really, a canadian newspaper made a mistake by claiming that Iran wants to force non-christians, ie. muslims and jews, to wear special clothing?

I guess you meant forcing non-muslims, but one can never know...

It's pretty simple to see why the mistake of a french or english-speaking canadian newspaper was much easier to be debunked and corrected than the translation-mistake of Iran-leader's speech: Not many people in the west can understand Farsi..

Nightcrawler

[Nightcrawler]

Originally posted by southside grabowski
The enemy is real. The enemy is not Israel or US or Britain. The enemy knows no national border. The enemy is the western/atheistic world. Bush represents the western/atheistic world and therefore is the enemy and must be eliminated. I suspect the folks up in Afghanistan see that quite well. We were reminded of it in Iraq this weekend when one of our local families were massacred. We are not too interested in sensitivity and philosophical bull right now.

Our troops will continue to protect us from those who want to massacre us. It’s past time we put aside our inhibitions and let these savages seen our religious superiority a little clearer.

I see your point.

Nightcrawler

[segovius]

Originally posted by Nightcrawler
I see your point.

Nightcrawler

:rolleyes:

[e1618978]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
Exactly my point but explained in a far better english.

Except I am pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Immanual is not developing a nuclear weapon, so nobody cares if he wants China gone.

Gene - do you honestly think that the Iranian president, if he had his way, would just remove the Israeli government and not slaughter the jews living there.

[segovius]

Originally posted by e1618978
Except I am pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Immanual is not developing a nuclear weapon, so nobody cares if he wants China gone.

Gene - do you honestly think that the Iranian president, if he had his way, would just remove the Israeli government and not slaughter the jews living there.

Why do you think he would......oh, wait, you believe anything you are told even if it is by proven liars who want to add Iranians to their death toll. Ok.

[e1618978]

Originally posted by segovius
Why do you think he would......oh, wait, you believe anything you are told even if it is by proven liars who want to add Iranians to their death toll. Ok.

Yes, I think that he would have to. It would be quite a trick to erase Israel without killing most of the Israelis.

For one thing, 77.1% of Israel's population is Jewish, so you would either have to kill a bunch of them, or else have a dictatorship of a minority over a majority (kind of like Iraq under Saddam) if you wanted a Palistinian state.

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by Powerdoc
Exactly my point but explained in a far better english.
I hadn't noticed, but thank you nonetheless.
As for placing Mr. Ahmadinejad and his various declarations in their proper context, it'd be useful to be informed on the militia where he came from, the Bâssij.

[segovius]

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
I hadn't noticed, but thank you nonetheless.
As for placing Mr. Ahmadinejad and his various declarations in their proper context, it'd be useful to be informed on the militia where he came from, the Bâssij.

You see, the thing is the Bassij, the Revolutionary Guards, are extremist fascists. So probably is Ahmadinejad but there's a but.....

Some other fascists - ie Israel and their puppets the current US administration - want an excuse to bomb, kill and murder Iranians.

And they are lying to achieve this sick and perverse end.

So what it really comes down to is: which fascist agenda is most dangerous:

a) That of proven liars and killers who are now proved to be lying again (like why would they need to if there was enough bad stuff anyway?)

b) That of someone who may be an extremist who has attacked no-one (unlike the aforementioned fascists), killed the inhabitants of no State (unlike the aforementioned fascists), and is the subject of the proven lies of the aforementioned fascists.

And remember: we only have the word of the liars for any of this. That is 100% where all info comes from whether it be the Zionist megaphone Memri, the Iranian fascist exiles (the equivalent of Chalabi and his execrable crew) and various Bush paid shills.

That's it. Only items on the menu labeled 'Freedom'.

Works for the sheep but those with a scintilla of reason left in their assaulted and befuddled consciousness, though diminishing by the hour, may well demand more. I know I do.

[Immanuel Goldstein]

Originally posted by segovius
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
As for placing Mr. Ahmadinejad and his various declarations in their proper context, it'd be useful to be informed on the militia where he came from, the Bâssij.
You see, the thing is the Bassij, the Revolutionary Guards, are extremist fascists. So probably is Ahmadinejad but there's a but.....

Some other fascists - ie Israel…
So Israel is Fascist now?
Is there one party rule in Israel?
Is Israeli society organised in a way which incorporates all individuals in an authoritarian ideological apparatus prohibiting all forms of association (political and otherwise) outside that apparatus?
Is Israel governed by a dictator promoting a doctrine of “leader-principle” and the supremacy of the state over everything else?
If so, care to substantiate your allegation or should one take the “Evil Fascist Israel theory” on faith alone?

…and their puppets the current US administration…
So the US government is a puppet of Israel now?
Does Israel exert supreme control over the decision-making process in Washington D.C.?
Would you care to substantiate your allegation, or should one take the “Zionist Occupied Government theory” on faith alone?

…want an excuse to bomb, kill and murder Iranians.
As everybody who's anybody knows, nothing pleases the bloodthirsty Zionists and their stupid Yank lapdogs more than bombing and killing and murdering and executing Iranians, while sacrificing cute fluffy kittens to some netherworld deities.

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by e1618978
Gene - do you honestly think that the Iranian president, if he had his way, would just remove the Israeli government and not slaughter the jews living there.

I dont know - I have no proof to support one side or the other. I do, however, know that Iran has not attacked anyone in the last 50 years (although it has been attacked by Saddam, whom the US supplied with weapons and intentions) and I also do know that they are not the ones banging the drums of 'severe consequences'.

Believe me, I have no sympathy for Ahmadinejad, he is rather unimportant in the general scheme of things (i.e. there are others behind the scenes leading the country), but I can't help but stress that what he said does not equate to 'wipe Israel off the map' or 'kill all Jews' or other such mantra. If it did, he would start by killing Iranian Jews wouldn't he? I mean, isn't that the claim? That he hates Jews and wants to wipe them off the map? If he did, he would probably start with the ones he has in his own country (therefore easy targets), no? Kinda like what Hitler did.

But as far as I can tell he isn't and doesn't plan to, contrary to what propaganda-driven 'Canadian' newspapers proclaim in bold fonts in their front page and retract in italics in their 39th page.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by SDW2001
You're delusional too. It's not just the government he wants gone, and you know it.
How we know it if he hasn't said so? How is this fundamentally different from Bush "liberating" Iraq, when many people see Christianity versus Islam as its own culture war?

[SDW2001]

Originally posted by Placebo
How we know it if he hasn't said so? How is this fundamentally different from Bush "liberating" Iraq, when many people see Christianity versus Islam as its own culture war?

You're kidding yourself. Really.

1. Israel is not a dicatorship.

2. Israel does not murder and torture it's own people.

3. Israel has no Saddam or equivalent figure.

4. Post evidence that suggests Iran's President merely wants to "liberate" Israel from it's oppressive government.


There are a great many Muslims that want to see Israel pushed into the sea. They hate not just Israel but the jews themselves. They do not acknoweldge Israel's right to exist. Iran pursues nuclear technology for "energy" while sitting on a trillion barrels of oil, defies the international community, and openly questions Israel's right to exist and if the holocaust actually happened.

I'd like to be nicer, but in all honesty, figure it the fuck out.

[segovius]

Originally posted by SDW2001
You're kidding yourself. Really.

1. Israel is not a dicatorship.

Israel doesn't need to be, it can afford to pay lip-service to democracy™ as virtually everyone there is with the programme.

Similar thing happened with Mussolini in Italy - he got voted in. No opposition when everyone is of a like-mind.

Strangely there are a few dissenters (see below) but they are summarily dealt with and on the whole Israel remains a State for those of a particular view. Extreme fundie Christians seem to like it but oddly, many Jewish friends I have in London and New York wouldn't live in Israel for exactly the same reasons as I wouldn't.

2. Israel does not murder and torture it's own people.

In your dreamworld perhaps not but on the ground the situation is somewhat different.

Members of organizations such as Naturei Karta and the admirable jews Against Zionists are unfortunately frequently on the receiving end of random (and not so random) brutality and assaults and of course there is the well-known case of Mordechai Vannunu who although not tortured physically (as far as we know) is agreed to have been subjected to ongoing psychological torture.

there are of course, countless others - mostly dissenters or opponents of Zionism - but on the whole you are right, Israel tends to torture Palestinians and other 'subhumans' rather than their own people.

I am curious though as to why this 'their own people' seems such a qualifier for you. is it because you deem it worse to torture an Israeli than an Arab or is it just something you have picked up from Bush's phraseology re Saddam?

3. Israel has no Saddam or equivalent figure.

Depends what you mean. Certainly no-one has been demonized in that sense and the Israeli butchers such as Sharon have been whitewashed so in that sense you are correct.

The early terrorist murderers such as the Stern Gang and Irgun are equally not 'a bad thing' so I suppose you are right.

4. Post evidence that suggests Iran's President merely wants to "liberate" Israel from it's oppressive government.

I don't think he does. He wants to rid the world of the disgraceful stain of Zionism. An aim he is supported in by many Jews and people like myself.

In fact I was recently reading a letter from a head Rabbi defending the President and praising his statements - the real ones, not the Israeli/US translation.

There are a great many Muslims that want to see Israel pushed into the sea. They hate not just Israel but the jews themselves. They do not acknoweldge Israel's right to exist. Iran pursues nuclear technology for "energy" while sitting on a trillion barrels of oil, defies the international community, and openly questions Israel's right to exist and if the holocaust actually happened.

If this is so - and I suppose it could well be, racists spring up in all cultures - then they are not really Muslims as belief in this religion necessitates belief that the Jews are subject to God's revelation and will go to Paradise in the hereafter. As do Christians - which is why it is forbidden in Islam to try to convert either.

I am not sure if Iran's President is a racist personally. Certainly I have read my (original and untainted) statements of his praising the Iranian Jewish community which continues to exist unmolested.

I think Iran should defy the 'international community' if it is tantamount to supporting Bush and Blair and their campaign for more death and destruction. I am proud that my own country, Spain, also 'defies the international community' on certain issues and will do so again when the push to war becomes ratcheted to fever pitch.

Holocaust Myth: I read a book by the prominent Jewish scholar - he has been repeatedly smeared by Zionists btw, I think they call him an 'anti-Semite (?) - Professor Finkelstein which also approaches the Holocaust in terms of 'myth'.

The problem - as usual - is with the low level of intelligence and general stupidity/lack of questioning of the apologists. The term 'myth' in both these cases (Iran and Finkelstein) is used not in the sense of 'untrue' but rather 'manipulated'.

The nature of this manipulation ranges from creating a monolithic meme which, regardless of its truth or not, cannot be questioned (those that do, quickly find themselves behind bars) to establishing 'facts' which are widely known but which are not accurate - the death statistics at Auschwitz for example which have been officially downgraded numerous times and the nature of other camps which were not death camps but are widely regarded as having been so.

Of course, many scum such as racists and Nazis are naturally interested in this area but then so are people who don;t like being told what to think and the fact that they are forbidden from discussing certain things because of their nature.

[segovius]

It is also interesting to note that while 'Holocaust' is a word known to possibly every sentient being on the planet and referring to events occurring in the middle of last century which were remedied shortly after with the perpetrators being brought to justice, there is another word signifying an event - or process perhaps - which also started around that time.

This word is virtually unknown though - which is strange because the process continues....

Nakba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba) refers to the forced expulsion of Palestinians - a crime and one that is often denied (without penalty and often even with praise) by 'revisionists'.

Behind the word we have the unknown and denied reality of the mass deportation of a million Palestinians from their cities and villages, wholesale massacres of civilians, and the razing to the ground of hundreds of Palestinian villages.

You can dispute this if you like - no-one will care. It is not a crime. You won't go to jail. You may even make new friends.