kidnapped in iraq

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by occam whisker
despite their every conciliatory effort

How about they let the people of Chechnya decide for themselves in an internationally sanctioned referendum if they want to live under the so-called Russian Federation as the ultimate conciliatory effort? And then start re-building the country they totally destroyed using money directly from the Russian budget.

[occam whisker]

Russian efforts to placate Islamic forces over Chechnya by supporting Islamic causes everywhere else did not keep their diplomats from being kidnapped in Iraq:

Insurgents in Iraq say they have killed four Russian embassy workers kidnapped at the start of June. The Mujahideen Shura Council, an umbrella group incorporating al-Qaeda in Iraq, released an internet video and a statement announcing their deaths. The video showed one man being beheaded and another shot dead, as well as the body of a third, but there was no sign of the fourth hostage. The men were seized in Baghdad on 3 June, and kidnappers said the executions were in revenge for \"torture, killing and displacement by the infidel Russian government\" in Chechnya. The Mujahideen Shura Council, which said it was holding the men, had threatened to kill them if Russia did not pull its troops out of Chechnya.

It is this apparent indifference to Russian appeasement policy that is so dismaying. If Russia can still be regarded as hostile despite their every conciliatory effort then it will be interesting to see what will the Russians do next. Perhaps Aesop\'s fable about the The Man, the Boy, and the Donkey bring home the lesson that a change in policy is required.

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
How about they let the people of Chechnya decide for themselves in an internationally sanctioned referendum if they want to live under the so-called Russian Federation as the ultimate conciliatory effort? And then start re-building the country they totally destroyed using money directly from the Russian budget.


Why stop with \"Chechnya\"? Why not London, Paris, Detroit, or any other place where Muslims were allowed to build a mosque? You think the rest of the country should have a say on that?

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by occam whisker
Why stop with \"Chechnya\"? Why not London, Paris, Detroit, or any other place where Muslims were allowed to build a mosque? You think the rest of the country should have a say on that?

Because Chechnya, or what is left of it after the barbaric hordes marched through it, is the state of the people living in it and the majority of the people living in it happen to be muslim.

You know, democracy and all that snazzy stuff.

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
You know, democracy and all that snazzy stuff.


LOL. And your point is? Seems to me the majority in Russia decided they will not allow this Muslim minority dictate to them what Russia\'s border is. You know, democracy and all that snazzy stuff.

[hardeeharhar]

Actually democracy is about self-determination -- the Chechens don't want to be a part of Russia, so they shouldn't be a part of Russia.

When the baltic sea states wanted independence from the soviet union, we all supported their desires, how is this any different?

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by occam whisker
LOL. And your point is?

My point is, every republic (as defined by the Soviet Constitution - Chechnya was one of them) has the right to self-determination. Every other soviet republic got its independence. Not Chechnya. My point? Let Chechnya hold a referendum wether it wants to stay in the so-called Russian Federation and you'll get my point.

Seems to me the majority in Russia decided they will not allow this Muslim minority dictate to them what Russia\'s border is.

Seems to me the Russian border goes as far as and stops with Russia. Chechnya is not part of Russia. It's part of a fictionary federal state created by ex-gulag directors and KGB spies. It's used strictly as a dodge ball; whenever Russians ask WTF is going on with their country and demand better conditions, the political leaders of Russia launch another offensive on Chechnya. They divert opinion to "the war on terror" and such BS. You should be quite familiar with that actually.

You know, democracy and all that snazzy stuff.

One of the tenets of democracy is self-determination. Russians can't decide where and what Chechens do. Maybe in your world they do; but we're not talking about Snoopy this time.

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
My point is, every republic (as defined by the Soviet Constitution - Chechnya was one of them) has the right to self-determination. Every other soviet republic got its independence. Not Chechnya. My point? Let Chechnya hold a referendum wether it wants to stay in the so-called Russian Federation and you\'ll get my point.



\"Chechnya\" is not a Soviet republic. \"Chechnya\" is region in southern Russia, that may be rich in oil. But if you\'re a Latino in Orange County that decides that Orange County is no longer to be part of California or part of the United States, you might not know that. Viva la Raza!

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by occam whisker
\"Chechnya\" is not a Soviet republic.

Not anymore. The Soviet Union would have to exist for that.

\"Chechnya\" is region in southern Russia,

No it isn't. It's a federal subject (a republic) of the Russian Federation kept there by using brute force by the ex-spies of KGB and other hordes.

that may be rich in oil.

For some reason, you have no fucking clue what Chechnya was and is, but you do know that it may be rich in oil. Quite a coincidence.

But if you\'re a Latino in Orange County that decides that Orange County is no longer to be part of California or part of the United States, you might not know that. Viva la Raza!

Attempt to be funny: failure. Please try again.

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
Attempt to be funny: failure. Please try again.

Well, not as funny as any of your posts, but certainly more cogent.

[Gene Clean]

If that's cogent, I'm Jesus Christ.

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
If that\'s cogent, I\'m Jesus Christ.

Why be insulting to Jesus Christ?

[hardeeharhar]

Originally posted by occam whisker
Why be insulting to Jesus Christ?

Why be misusin' the english language?

[e1618978]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Actually democracy is about self-determination -- the Chechens don't want to be a part of Russia, so they shouldn't be a part of Russia.

When the baltic sea states wanted independence from the soviet union, we all supported their desires, how is this any different?

And how is it any different from the southern states attempted succeession from the Union in the 19th century? Do you think that Lincoln should have let them go?

[addabox]

(Jaw drops fully off of head and strikes floor)

Wait-- now it's cool for Russia to hold a client state in thrall by military force? You mean that whole cold war thing was just expedient bullshit, now to replaced by the war on terror wherein Muslim client states are the bad guy and our hearts go out to the beleaguered Bear, brothers in battling those damn rag heads?

And this formulation in no way could possibly suggest that the war on terror is, in fact, expedient bullshit?

I, for one, look forward to the next reordering of the Eternal Massive External Enemy, where we learn that Britain is a nest of vipers and the Chinese have always been our friends.

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Why be misusin\' the english language?


I\'m a little rusty with my Elizabethan english? Maybe some prose from King Arthur\'s time?

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by addabox
(Jaw drops fully off of head and strikes floor)

Wait-- now it\'s cool for Russia to hold a client state in thrall by military force? You mean that whole cold war thing was just expedient bullshit, now to replaced by the war on terror wherein Muslim client states are the bad guy and our hearts go out to the beleaguered Bear, brothers in battling those damn rag heads?

And this formulation in no way could possibly suggest that the war on terror is, in fact, expedient bullshit?

I, for one, look forward to the next reordering of the Eternal Massive External Enemy, where we learn that Britain is a nest of vipers and the Chinese have always been our friends.


So you think we need yet another jihadi thugocracy in \"Chechnya\".

[Gene Clean]

Originally posted by occam whisker
Why be insulting to Jesus Christ?

The insult is to me, actually, but you wouldn't understand that.

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by Gene Clean
The insult is to me, actually, but you wouldn\'t understand that.

Well, as long as abu child molester bin saud is not the insulted party. Otherwise you might have your throat slit.

[addabox]

Originally posted by e1618978
And how is it any different from the southern states attempted succeession from the Union in the 19th century? Do you think that Lincoln should have let them go?

You mean other than the fact that the Chechens are a linguistically and ethnically distinct peoples who have been fighting all comers for the last 500 years and were deported en masse by Stalin during the war during which time about a quarter of the population died?

No, not different at all.

[addabox]

Originally posted by occam whisker
So you think we need yet another jihadi thugocracy in \"Chechnya\".

What does it matter what I think? The Cechnyan separatists are doing battle with the Russians, and will continue to do so if the past 500 years are any indication.

Are we supposed to invade Chechnya to install democracy? Start pumping money and arms into the corrupt Russian government so they can reemerge as an expansionist power, but this time only if they promise to beat up only on Islamic states?

How about arming Turkey and Armenia to the teeth to make them are bulwark against the Chechen domino?

Proxy war! It always works out so well!

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by addabox
What does it matter what I think? The Cechnyan separatists are doing battle with the Russians, and will continue to do so if the past 500 years are any indication.

Are we supposed to invade Chechnya to install democracy? Start pumping money and arms into the corrupt Russian government so they can reemerge as an expansionist power, but this time only if they promise to beat up only on Islamic states?

How about arming Turkey and Armenia to the teeth to make them are bulwark against the Chechen domino?

Proxy war! It always works out so well!


No. But let the Russians (and the Chinese) do what they need to do.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

God, it's a really tricky one.

Is it Mika or is it dmz?

The anything-Islamic-is-evil / 'reduce the Middle East to radioactive rubble with selective bombs that only leave non-Muslims capabable of breeding' tone is pure Mika.

And yet. The writing style is dmz's. It's doubly tricky, because dmz was never quite so scared, aggressive and nakedly bigoted.

I think it's Mika, for what it's worth.

[occam whisker]

Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
God, it\'s a really tricky one.

Is it Mika or is it dmz?

The anything-Islamic-is-evil / \'reduce the Middle East to radioactive rubble with selective bombs that only leave non-Muslims capabable of breeding\' tone is pure Mika.

And yet. The writing style is dmz\'s. It\'s doubly tricky, because dmz was never quite so scared, aggressive and nakedly bigoted.

I think it\'s Mika, for what it\'s worth.


So you\'re saying that jihadis are real muslims? You might want to recheck those propaganda talking points.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Hey Mika.