Americans support "amnesty" for illegal immigrants

[BRussell]

According to polls summarized here (http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm), about two-thirds of Americans support a path to citizenship for those here illegally now, while less than 1/3 support deportation.

I was surprised at this, given the zeal with which many Republicans derided such plans as "amnesty" and seemed to believe it was their election ticket. Well, many of those Republicans went down to defeat.

I think the Democrats should help Bush pass his immigration plan. It's the right thing to do, and it has the added benefit of letting Congressional Republicans cement their own demise among the fastest-growing minority in the US.

[iPoster]

What about the 66% who think that illegal immigrants cost too much by using government services? Or the 54% who favor building a border fence?

That said, I would agree with 'amnesty' for those who have no criminal record (other than traffice violations/misdemeanors), take the standard citizenship classes and meet the other requirements of legal immigrants, and pay some reasonable amount of restitution (for back income/land/property taxes that have gone unpaid) IF the government does more to keep future illegals from successfully entering/staying in the US, be it a border fence in combination with enforcing current labor/immigration laws (rarely enforced today), or some other effort.

[BRussell]

What about the 66% who think that illegal immigrants cost too much by using government services? Or the 54% who favor building a border fence? Yeah, I think Americans want tough treatment of illegal immigrants, but they also want a path to citizenship for them. I don't think there's any inconsistency there, either.

[trumptman]

The word "requirements" with regard to the legalization is very broad and that is what captures so much support. When you get down to the nitty-gritty of what the requirements are, I'm sure the percentages would be all over the place.

There should be something to differentiate legal from illegal immigration, even if there is a path to a legalized status.

Nick

[Mac on a Mac]

Americans want the illegals here working, but they don't want to see the illegals or pay their schooling/medical bills. We are rather hypocritical when it comes to this issue

[SDW2001]

Yeah, I think Americans want tough treatment of illegal immigrants, but they also want a path to citizenship for them. I don't think there's any inconsistency there, either.

I think that's basically true. We at least need some sort of guest worker program or registered alien program coupled with much tougher border security.

iPoster:

....That said, I would agree with 'amnesty' for those who have no criminal record (other than traffice violations/misdemeanors), take the standard citizenship classes and meet the other requirements of legal immigrants, and pay some reasonable amount of restitution (for back income/land/property taxes that have gone unpaid)...

I firmly disagree with that last part. You can't have a negative incentive to "register" as an alien or guest worker or even to become a citizen. Would you try to become a citizen if you had to pay, say 5 years of back taxes? Or 1 year? Or a fine? Of course not.

I've laid out my ideas before, but here goes again. We'll see what you all think.

1) We need much better border security. This includes a wall, a virtual border that makes use of the best technology, and increased human resources (read: Border Patrol). We also need policies that allow the border patrol to do their jobs. They should deport illegals immediately. If the illegals threaten them in any way, they should be able to fire their weapons at them. Recently, two agents were fired for firing their guns at an illegal who was threatening them (with a weapon, I think).

2) We need a guest worker program. I see it like this:

A. Illegals here longer than 5 years have the ability to apply for citizenship, unless he/she has committed three misdemeanors or one felony. If so, they must regster as a Guest Worker. More than one felony or a felony plus three misdemeanors results in automatic deportation.

B. Illegals here less than five years must register as Guest Workers within 6 months, or face automatic deporation. After five years of being a Guest Worker (from the date of registration, not from when he/she entered), the immigrant may apply for citizenship. During the five year period, the Guest Worker must not commit three misdemeanors or one felony. He or she must pay all taxes during the five year period. Failure to comply with the above results in deporation.

C. After five years, the Guest Worker mayapply for citizenship if he/she choses to do so.

D. There will be no back taxes or fines required to register as a Guest Worker.


3) Fines for Eomployers hiring illegals of 100,000 per worker.

4) Create a nationwide Illegal Immigration Task Force with at least 1,000 agents. They will search for illegals and enforce the law with respect to employers. They will work undercover to root out illegal and the people that hire them.

5) Federal laws that ban all illegals from receiving social services at all levels of government, except emergency medical care, and mandate that all localities obey federal immigration laws/policies. The laws would bar localities and states from "refusing" to comply and would ban the same government entities from passing regulations such as "police cannot ask persons involved in traffic stops if they are here illegally." (that's just an example).

[SDW2001]

Americans want the illegals here working, but they don't want to see the illegals or pay their schooling/medical bills. We are rather hypocritical when it comes to this issue

I think that's an unsupportable position. I don't want ANY illegals working, nor do I want to pay their medical and school bills. Fuck it...I'll pay more for fruit, construction and landscaping work. I don't mean that to be stereotypical, but those are are high illegal employment industries.

[tonton]

I don't support amnesty, but what the hell is wrong with a guest worker program that is seasonal, requires annual return to an immigrant's homeland, and can lead to citizenship?

Give them a legal option for citizenship, and they will be less likely to take the illegal option. We can even give the guest worker program a slight reduction in the minimum wage, and we can see legal benefits to the economy less minimum impact on labor costs than a crackdown/prohibition.

It wouldn't eliminate illegal immigration, but it would definitely be an improvement.

[Aquatic]

SDW I know this may sound crazy but I agree 100%. Good post, good ideas. And yes, I believe you are right. Enforcing back taxes is in the end, a bad idea. And all in all, your strategy seems like the best and most level-headed comprehensive strategy I have heard so far.

[BRussell]

I don't support amnesty, but what the hell is wrong with a guest worker program that is seasonal, requires annual return to an immigrant's homeland, and can lead to citizenship?

Give them a legal option for citizenship, and they will be less likely to take the illegal option. We can even give the guest worker program a slight reduction in the minimum wage, and we can see legal benefits to the economy less minimum impact on labor costs than a crackdown/prohibition.

It wouldn't eliminate illegal immigration, but it would definitely be an improvement. I have very mixed feelings about guest workers. It's been a part of other countries' immigration policies, but I'm not sure that it's been successful. It has created second-class citizens with no interest in assimilating into the country. I'd rather people came here to be Americans or didn't come at all.

[SDW2001]

I have very mixed feelings about guest workers. It's been a part of other countries' immigration policies, but I'm not sure that it's been successful. It has created second-class citizens with no interest in assimilating into the country. I'd rather people came here to be Americans or didn't come at all.

What do you think of my five year GW program?

[tonton]

I have very mixed feelings about guest workers. It's been a part of other countries' immigration policies, but I'm not sure that it's been successful. It has created second-class citizens with no interest in assimilating into the country. I'd rather people came here to be Americans or didn't come at all.

Ah, but the thing with guest workers is... you can tax them. And they're well aware they are operating within the confines of the law in immigration, so they are more likely to observe the law elsewhere. Basically, it promotes responsible pseudo-citizenry until the five years as a guest worker is up (I agree with SDW that 5 years is a good requirement) and they can graduate from pseudo-citizenry to full citizenry.

[SDW2001]

Ah, but the thing with guest workers is... you can tax them. And they're well aware they are operating within the confines of the law in immigration, so they are more likely to observe the law elsewhere. Basically, it promotes responsible pseudo-citizenry until the five years as a guest worker is up (I agree with SDW that 5 years is a good requirement) and they can graduate from pseudo-citizenry to full citizenry.

Exactly. You have to give them an incentive (being legal, qualifying for services, path to citizenship) and avoid a negative one (back taxes, fines).

Actually, speaking of services, I would think that banning GWs from welfare and unemployment would be a good idea. Medical care, schooling, etc should all be on the table though).

[tonton]

Exactly. You have to give them an incentive (being legal, qualifying for services, path to citizenship) and avoid a negative one (back taxes, fines).

Actually, speaking of services, I would think that banning GWs from welfare and unemployment would be a good idea. Medical care, schooling, etc should all be on the table though).

Fully agree. Welfare and unemployment doesn't make sense. Guest worker status is contingent upon having employment. But after the five years is up, after applying for citizenship, they would qualify just like every other citizen.

[SDW2001]

Fully agree. Welfare and unemployment doesn't make sense. Guest worker status is contingent upon having employment. But after the five years is up, after applying for citizenship, they would qualify just like every other citizen.

Yes, I agree too. Mark this date on your calendar! We agree on something!

Now, back to flames....


;)

[AsLan^]

What's wrong with simply enforcing minimum wage so there is no incentive to hire illegals?

[SDW2001]

What's wrong with simply enforcing minimum wage so there is no incentive to hire illegals?

A lot of them are paid well above minimum wage.

[AsLan^]

A lot of them are paid well above minimum wage.
I didn't realize that, I might head down south for a little fruit picking excursion next time I'm in the states.

[SDW2001]

I didn't realize that, I might head down south for a little fruit picking excursion next time I'm in the states.

Well I don't know about that industry actually. But construction, landscaping, etc....they are big illegal-hiring industries. There was just a case in NY where an illegal construction worker got hurt and was in a whail cheer for life. He sued and got future wages of $15.00 a hour...which is what he was making. Granted, it's NY...but still....a hell of a lot more than the minimum.

[sammi jo]

I've laid out my ideas before, but here goes again. We'll see what you all think.

1) We need much better border security. This includes a wall, a virtual border that makes use of the best technology, and increased human resources (read: Border Patrol). We also need policies that allow the border patrol to do their jobs. They should deport illegals immediately. If the illegals threaten them in any way, they should be able to fire their weapons at them. Recently, two agents were fired for firing their guns at an illegal who was threatening them (with a weapon, I think).

The technology is there. It is used at large area military facilities such as Nellis AFB and effectively covers very large areas of real estate. An actual physical fence by itself is pretty much useless, but electronic surveillance would work well, backed up by quick-response teams of border guards. If proven to be a (cost) effective element in apprehending and deporting illegals, it would discourage future would-be border crossers and smugglers. I never thought I could ever come down on the side of surveillance... but in this case, with an average of 3,500 illegal immigrants streaming across the border from Mexico every day, every month, every year... something drastic has gotta be done... its gotten way, way, way outta control. And this has nothing to do with surveilling innocent people... here, we are dealing with intentional lawbreakers, en masse.

2) We need a guest worker program. I see it like this:

A. Illegals here longer than 5 years have the ability to apply for citizenship, unless he/she has committed three misdemeanors or one felony. If so, they must regster as a Guest Worker. More than one felony or a felony plus three misdemeanors results in automatic deportation.

B. Illegals here less than five years must register as Guest Workers within 6 months, or face automatic deporation. After five years of being a Guest Worker (from the date of registration, not from when he/she entered), the immigrant may apply for citizenship. During the five year period, the Guest Worker must not commit three misdemeanors or one felony. He or she must pay all taxes during the five year period. Failure to comply with the above results in deporation.

C. After five years, the Guest Worker mayapply for citizenship if he/she choses to do so.

D. There will be no back taxes or fines required to register as a Guest Worker.

All good ideas there.

3) Fines for Employers hiring illegals of 100,000 per worker.

Excellent idea. This one measure, if implemented and policed effectively could reduce the flow of illegals from a river to a trickle. I would also add jail time for repeat offenders (ie those who knowingly employ immigrants who enter the US illegally). Not only that, but the US Government should put pressure on the Mexican Government to prosecute people for openly advertising in Mexico itself, for services, employmnt etc. for their own citizens who enter the US illegally. There are ads and billboards etc etc all over the place just south of the border.

4) Create a nationwide Illegal Immigration Task Force with at least 1,000 agents. They will search for illegals and enforce the law with respect to employers. They will work undercover to root out illegal and the people that hire them.

If 1000 agents cold effectively cover such an enormous area.. for sure. Seems a little bit of an underestimation... but hey, 1000 would be a start.

5) Federal laws that ban all illegals from receiving social services at all levels of government, except emergency medical care, and mandate that all localities obey federal immigration laws/policies. The laws would bar localities and states from "refusing" to comply and would ban the same government entities from passing regulations such as "police cannot ask persons involved in traffic stops if they are here illegally." (that's just an example).

I can't disagree with that either. Anyone who knowingly breaks the law is aware of the consequences.. and if caught.. well... what more can one say?

Sometimes, to address a situation that has gotten so far out of hand that national security is compromised, a temporary "back end" solution is preferable to doing literally nothing, which has been the climate for decades now. But... the issue of the current and ongoing invasion has eventually got to be addessed at its source.. rather than just jailing and deporting desperate people who will do their damnedest to come here, and keep attempting to come back, in order to escape abject poverty and deprivation in Mexico... and with the chance of a better life beckoning in the US, who wouldn't have a go at it, if it means providing a better means of support for one's family?

[Bageljoey]

Interesting thread... I havent really strayed from the hardware and software news much...

But one thing I notice that I see here and in general is all the talk about how illegals dont pay taxes. I don't have any data, but I do know that my brother-in-law spent 10 years here illegally. He was here to work, which he did with great zeal (never using social services, BTW).

However, like most of his family who were also here, he did have a Social Security card. Granted, it cost $35 in Atlantic City, but the point is he filled out his W2 forms and his employers pretended to think he was legal. He was paying $$$ into federal withholding as well as social security and unemployment insurance with every paycheck--without any hope of ever getting it back as the # was obviously bogus.

In terms of taxes, then, he was more of a benifit to the government than a legal worker because that money never gets collected. Not one penny of the money he paid into Social Security will ever need to be paid back to him.

Many of my citizen friends, on the other hand, were working under the table during that time.

...

This is not an argument for continued illegal immigration, I just thought I would toss that out.

[tonton]

What's wrong with simply enforcing minimum wage so there is no incentive to hire illegals?

There is always an incentive to hire illegals. It is usually cheaper and paperwork is easier. What you're asking is that we raise the DISINCENTIVE to the point where the risk offsets the potential benefits. That's a tricky step, and some people will always find a way to abuse it, and minimize the risk, while maintaining illegal hiring for the benfits.

In my opinion, providing an incentive for doing something... i.e. hiring guest workers at lower cost legally... is always a better way to get people to operate the way you want them to. We provide an incentive to guest-worker industries, we provide an incentive to the immigrants themselves, and it's win-win.

[AsLan^]

There is always an incentive to hire illegals. It is usually cheaper and paperwork is easier. What you're asking is that we raise the DISINCENTIVE to the point where the risk offsets the potential benefits. That's a tricky step, and some people will always find a way to abuse it, and minimize the risk, while maintaining illegal hiring for the benfits.

In my opinion, providing an incentive for doing something... i.e. hiring guest workers at lower cost legally... is always a better way to get people to operate the way you want them to. We provide an incentive to guest-worker industries, we provide an incentive to the immigrants themselves, and it's win-win.
I like your answer, but would and should a guest worker program allow for wages below what we consider the minimum, or even ridiculously competitive (i.e. far below normal wages for any particular profession) ?

If we can legally import welders and boilermakers from China, Mexico, etc. that will do the work for $15.00 an hour ("a hell of a lot more than the minimum"), what happens to our home grown blue collar professionals?

[tonton]

I like your answer, but would and should a guest worker program allow for wages below what we consider the minimum, or even ridiculously competitive (i.e. far below normal wages for any particular profession) ?

If we can legally import welders and boilermakers from China, Mexico, etc. that will do the work for $15.00 an hour ("a hell of a lot more than the minimum"), what happens to our home grown blue collar professionals?

They'd have a disadvantage. Just like they do now when we're hiring illegals.

If having guest workers in construction would change the face of the industry too much, then the industry would be rejected for guest worker jobs and local construction workers will likely see an advantage. There will still be illegals, but fewer if such a thing happens. Might mean lower profits for construction companies, though, as union workers gain more negotiating power.

[AsLan^]

They'd have a disadvantage. Just like they do now when we're hiring illegals.

If having guest workers in construction would change the face of the industry too much, then the industry would be rejected for guest worker jobs and local construction workers will likely see an advantage. There will still be illegals, but fewer if such a thing happens. Might mean lower profits for construction companies, though, as union workers gain more negotiating power.

I think providing a legal option for the wholesale importation of blue collar labor (not just the proverbial fruit picking/janitorial work) will be devastating to our own blue collar workers.

Skilled laborers from developing countries WILL literally be flown in to work contracts that are won by being able to underbid any company employing union workers.