Christian Faith in USA influenced by support of Israel

[Fellowship]

A subject that I find very interesting in our time is the seeming heavy pressure of "Israel" infused into the talking points of mainstream US Christian outlets.

First off I would like to say that I am NOT anti-semetic or hateful of Jewish people.

Now that that is taken care of I must submit some questions and statements for your consideration and response:

In recent history I not only see talking points twist to a pro-israel slant I see it in policy at all levels of US politics.

I see this slant in right-wing media (Fox, Hannity, Limbaugh and last but not least Michael Savage :no:

I also see this with co-called mainstream Christian leaders such as Pat Robertson, John Hagee and on and on.

Hagee has his www.cufi.org "Christians United For Israel"

My concern is that this is not Christian at all as I see it.

Here is an interesting take on this subject:

http://www.conspiracyworld.com/index0050.htm

What are your thoughts.

Fellows

[New]

I don't think christian in america are even aware that a quite significant portion of palestinians are christians.

[SpamSandwich]

Hands off the Middle East. That's a policy I'd like to see enforced. Especially since the support of Israel usually comes down to a (yet again) conflict in philosophies and beliefs that puts separation between church and state in jeopardy (again).

[Tulkas]

A subject that I find very interesting in our time is the seeming heavy pressure of "Israel" infused into the talking points of mainstream US Christian outlets.

First off I would like to say that I am NOT anti-semetic or hateful of Jewish people.

Now that that is taken care of I must submit some questions and statements for your consideration and response:

In recent history I not only see talking points twist to a pro-israel slant I see it in policy at all levels of US politics.

I see this slant in right-wing media (Fox, Hannity, Limbaugh and last but not least Michael Savage :no:

I also see this with co-called mainstream Christian leaders such as Pat Robertson, John Hagee and on and on.

Hagee has his www.cufi.org "Christians United For Israel"

My concern is that this is not Christian at all as I see it.

Here is an interesting take on this subject:

http://www.conspiracyworld.com/index0050.htm

What are your thoughts.

Fellows
I would be interested in actual details as to why you see this as non-christian.

[Fellowship]

I would be interested in actual details as to why you see this as non-christian.

It is very simple.

The result of the "us vs/ them" platform that John Hagee and others teach is racist and provide only for a divide and rule mentality.

I believe that real Christians do not take part in dividing people.

I agree with much of what the last hyperlink in my opening post says on that page.

If that does not answer your question then I will try again.

Fellows

[BRussell]

I think there are two types of pro-Israel views among Christians in the US, cultural and apocalyptic.

Americans feel a strong kinship with Israel, more than with any other country in that part of the world. Many Jews live in the US, and many American Jews live in Israel. It seems very natural to me.

But let's be honest, there are certain Christians who see Israel as the final apocalyptic battle ground. This has become an even more prominent line of thinking since 9/11 and the war on terror: Americans and Jews fighting together against Evil.

This was in the news quite often during the recent Israel-Lebanon war. Many apocalyptic Christians were on TV talking about the end-times. It was insane. And the irony of this view is that these Christians supposedly strongly support Israel, but their apocalyptic view is that Israel will be engulfed in war and be destroyed with the end-times. And they fundamentally reject Judaism because it doesn't have the correct belief about Jesus. So are these Christians really pro-Israel?

[SpamSandwich]

No, they are pro-Armageddon.

[Tulkas]

It is very simple.

The result of the "us vs/ them" platform that John Hagee and others teach is racist and provide only for a divide and rule mentality.

Who is the 'us' and who is the 'them', in the context of their support of Israel?


I believe that real Christians do not take part in dividing people.

Then they ought not to take on the title of Christian, since it separates them from others.


I agree with much of what the last hyperlink in my opening post says on that page.

If that does not answer your question then I will try again.

Fellows
Interesting that you would use information from Texe Marrs as an example of how to be inclusive...

[BRussell]

No, they are pro-Armageddon. Yeah. Oh and did I mention that that involves the complete destruction of Israel and all Israelis going to hell to be tortured for an eternity?

[shetline]

Yeah. Oh and did I mention that that involves the complete destruction of Israel and all Israelis going to hell to be tortured for an eternity?
Hey, wait! They get a "fair" chance to convert to Christianity before they die! :D

[addabox]

Hey, wait! They get a "fair" chance to convert to Christianity before they die! :D

True. Right after Barack Obama declares himself President of the One World State.

[MacRR]

And I get a 12" macbook pro with a quad core processor and illuminated keyboard!

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Me, me, me, me.

[Fellowship]

Who is the 'us' and who is the 'them', in the context of their support of Israel?

"Us" according to Hagee is "United States Christians along with Israel",,, "Them" is "all those Arabs"... unless I am mistaken.


Then they ought not to take on the title of Christian, since it separates them from others.

I disagree with this.


Interesting that you would use information from Texe Marrs as an example of how to be inclusive...

I do not even know who Texe Marrs is but I am talking about the points made within the page that I linked to.

If you would like you can comment on the points Mr Marrs makes on that page.

Fellows

[Fellowship]

And btw,,,

The reason I even find this subject to be important is because of people in my own family for ex: grandparents who say things like:

"Those Muslims want to kill us"

"We need to support the Jews"

"Bush is trying to protect us"

and on and on and then I think...... how were my grandparents brainwashed to this.

and I lay out my case in the opening post here.

I mention media,

I mention so-called Christian leaders who play the Israel card and get people worked into a fury over arabs.

I mentioned that I see a racist element to this all and I do not find it to be very Christian.

I do not find dividing people into us vs/ them a Christian way of conducting policy which affects the world.

Now would you like to comment on anything I layed out on the table or are you just going to question me endlessly and ignore the points I raise?

Fellows

[Tulkas]

"Us" according to Hagee is "United States Christians along with Israel",,, "Them" is "all those Arabs"... unless I am mistaken.

Then I guess we see this differently.



I disagree with this.

because...?

In classifying oneself as a christian (or as a member of any other group) one places oneself apart for those who do not.



I do not even know who Texe Marrs is but I am talking about the points made within the page that I linked to.

A very paranoid, hateful man. Intelligent and very well spoken however. Also, if you use anythig but the KJV you are going to hell. A nice example of inclusiveness...


If you would like you can comment on the points Mr Marrs makes on that page.

He likes strawmen like "Isn't it true that the Jews alone are "God's Chosen" people for eternity?" He tends to twist things people may have heard into something else and then argues against his version.

For example, he denies that Abrahams covenant was tied to his tribe, people or bloodline and that to believe so would make God racist and therefore cannot be true. I wonder, if he actually read the OT. He claims that other Chistian leaders, like Billy Graham, believe the Jews are the Master Race and are therefore racists. I cannot recall any American Christian leader make this claim.

From one of his other website: A Texe Marrs exclusive report: Here is definitive proof that the Jewish Nation, consisting of the 18.5 million Jews around the globe, is the prophesied Mystery, Babylon The Great, Mother of Harlots (Revelation 17). Revelation 13 identifies two “beasts” to arise on the world scene. Texe demonstrates conclusively that the first beast is, in fact, the Jewish Nation, including the Zionist leaders of Israel. The second beast is the United States of America, which is allied with and shall cause all the world to obey and worship the first beast. The Jewish global empire, brought into being by Jewish banking and corporate power and by U.S.A. world military dominance, is the stunning fulfillment of Bible prophecy. This is the reason why Jewish neocons now control the Bush Administration. It is also why Jews in America dictate to both political parties and have almost total control over the media, banks, universities, Hollywood, Wall Street, and the corporate realm.

I dunno. I probably wouldn't use him, myself, as a reference to backup my points, however vague. But maybe, that is just me. While he is a very intelligent man, he makes pretty weakminded arguements. I would be surprised in anyone that read that webpage and came away with anything but a general feeling like one needs a bath...




And btw,,,

The reason I even find this subject to be important is because of people in my own family for ex: grandparents who say things like:
.....

and I lay out my case in the opening post here.

I must have missed that. I see an introduction that you perceieve a pro-israel slant and that you feel this is un-christian. I don't see any case or arguements for this belief...until the last two posts.


I mention media,

yup


I mention so-called Christian leaders who play the Israel card

yup


and get people worked into a fury over arabs.

nope. well, I guess you have now.


I mentioned that I see a racist element to this all and I do not find it to be very Christian.

yup. But no explaination, until now, as to what you meant by this. Extremely vague comments are not arguements. If I was to state "I see a racist hue to AO these days", would that have any meaning without context or explaination? This would be why I asked for some details into your thoughts.


I do not find dividing people into us vs/ them a Christian way of conducting policy which affects the world.

So is it that you disagree with them conducting policy based on faith or that you disagree with the particular policy?



Now would you like to comment on anything I layed out on the table or are you just going to question me endlessly and ignore the points I raise?

Fellows
Two posts, asking for clarification of vague statements hardly counts as endless. Actually, looking back, I guess it was two posts and two questions.


endless.

[Fellowship]

So is it that you disagree with them conducting policy based on faith or that you disagree with the particular policy?




We ( The US and Israel ) seem to have a middle east policy which is us vs them and to see Christian leaders like Hagee chime in with this bothers me as well as how we (the US) give Israel a blank check many would argue.

On the one hand I do not want Israel to be hurt with rockets and or murder bombers. yet on the other hand I do not find that what happened to Beirut Lebanon in recent months as reasonable action by Israel.

There seems to be a madness and no voice of reason on either side.

What I do not care for is how this lack of moderation is now being infused into American politics and policy and we see things happen which is not in any way Christian in any shape or size.

We do in fact see power grabs and no bid contracts go to good ole boy companies.

We do in fact see death.

We do in fact see anything but peace.

Fellowship