Apostle Paul's tomb discovered......

[segovius]

....by the Vatican - which does take the edge off it a bit and invite scepticism but this one looks interesting.

Vatican archaeologists have unearthed a sarcophagus believed to contain the remains of the Apostle Paul that had been buried beneath Rome's second largest basilica.

The sarcophagus, which dates back to at least 390 A.D., has been the subject of an extended excavation that began in 2002 and was completed last month, the project's head said this week.

"Our objective was to bring the remains of the tomb back to light for devotional reasons, so that it could be venerated and be visible," said Giorgio Filippi, the Vatican archaeologist who headed the project at St. Paul Outside the Walls basilica.

That last quote also gives cause for concern - the objective for the excavation being so that it could be 'venerated' rather than for scientific purposes but it does look interesting.

As an aside, this is also a classic example of the religious mindset - the need to 'worship' and 'venerate' (I suppose that is why so many religious types also 'worship' ideals, Nationhood and George Bush) versus the scientific enquiring curiosity that alone leads to progress.

If only we could get beyond this and yet still keep an approach to spirituality.

Link (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/06/europe/EU_GEN_Vatican_St_Pauls_Tomb.php)

[crazychester]

As an aside, this is also a classic example of the religious mindset - the need to 'worship' and 'venerate' (I suppose that is why so many religious types also 'worship' ideals, Nationhood and George Bush) versus the scientific enquiring curiosity that alone leads to progress.

If only we could get beyIf only we could get beyond this and yet still keep an approach to spirituality.
Wow. It'd be just like being in an episode of Star Trek but for real! :p

I'm wondering whether I should follow the link because I just can't help but think if there was any more solid proof (or even an explanation as to how they might make a positive ID), your scientific, enquiring, curious self would already have included the info.

I have big problems with that last para too. Especially their stated "objecive". In fact, the implication seems to be they already believe it's Paul's tomb for other reasons.

Yeah alright, I'll go read the link. :grumble: ;)

[segovius]

Wow. It'd be just like being in an episode of Star Trek but for real! :p

I'm wondering whether I should follow the link because I just can't help but think if there was any more solid proof (or even an explanation as to how they might make a positive ID), your scientific, enquiring, curious self would already have included the info.

I have big problems with that last para too. Especially their stated "objecive". In fact, the implication seems to be they already believe it's Paul's tomb for other reasons.

Yeah alright, I'll go read the link. :grumble: ;)

There's a BBC News Site link too....not that that makes it any more legitimate.

I have grave concerns about this Pope on so many levels and I'm sure he has a hand in this somewhere....

[Powerdoc]

....by the Vatican - which does take the edge off it a bit and invite scepticism but this one looks interesting.



That last quote also gives cause for concern - the objective for the excavation being so that it could be 'venerated' rather than for scientific purposes but it does look interesting.

As an aside, this is also a classic example of the religious mindset - the need to 'worship' and 'venerate' (I suppose that is why so many religious types also 'worship' ideals, Nationhood and George Bush) versus the scientific enquiring curiosity that alone leads to progress.

If only we could get beyond this and yet still keep an approach to spirituality.

Link (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/06/europe/EU_GEN_Vatican_St_Pauls_Tomb.php)

There is different way of practicing religion, and futhermore of believing. For some people, it's important to have a simple approach : their relation with god is direct, and they see it at a number of their family (the father) and the others are part of this family, who deserve truly respect and why not worship.
For others, believing is god, is more a spirutual process, higly centered on mysticism. This kind of people do not see saints or others, as part of their own family, but people who have a great faith in the past and who dedicated their life to god.

[crazychester]

There's a BBC News Site link too....not that that makes it any more legitimate.

I have grave concerns about this Pope on so many levels and I'm sure he has a hand in this somewhere....
OK. So what I get is that they think it's Paul based on what sounds like a Chinese Whisper passed down over a couple of millennia.

Roughly 2000 years ago in a tacky war trophy museum in down town Rome:
"Been in the room by the oesophagus of the small Gaul?"

<insert>
passing millennia, mispronunciations, language death, Huns etc.
</insert>

Late 2001, papal emissary whispers to last pope (plenty of potential for mix ups there):
"Within this tomb lies the sarcophagus of the saint, Paul."

These sort of minor mistakes can happen sooooooooooo easily when you're running a centralised faith-based religion whose devoted followers need to touch some smelly object of highly dubious origins in order to maintain the unquestioning faith required by a god who, despite being omnipotent, still managed to underestimate the gullibility of his own creations to the point that plagues and archangels are no substitute for a mouldy old skeleton in a box that's seen enough renovations over the years it could start it's own lifestyle program.

OK, I admit a skeleton-hosted lifestyle program could be problematic.

Archeological find? Chester says 'No!'
Relic that'll perform miracles for Vatican World's tourism numbers? Chester says 'Yes!'

[crazychester]

Uh-oh.......

[MacRR]

I wonder how much it will sell on e-bay? It's sure to beat out the grilled cheese with the virgin mary selling price!

[dmz]

Gotta love that "veneration". I got on a mailing list for Roman Catholics (or maybe Greek Orthodox) -- you should see some of the Icon catalogs. Yikes.


My question on the skeleton is: does it have a head? And is it attached?

[MarcUK]

you should see some of the Icon catalogs. Yikes.
?

do you have scans or pics?

[dmz]

do you have scans or pics?
It's not that so much -- most of the Icons are painted by modern people, so they don't have the historical significance, the apostles kinda look like they're on a Gap catalogue shoot.

But copy like "Infused with the Spirit, these Icons....." is little far out.

[tonton]

Damn, if I only had the right to piss on it...

Don't get me wrong. I do respect the New Testament. I just don't respect Paul. There is much evidence that he got facts about Jesus wrong, or he simply infused his own beliefs (that didn't match those of Jesus) into what was written.

[MarcUK]

http://www.thirdage.com/news/features/images/news.yawn.jpg
:lol:

[MarcUK]

checking starry-night----how fitting that the vatican choose to make this announcement while the 'sun' is in the constellation of ophichus.

4th Post Here. read it and weep Frank.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=65948&highlight=ophiuchus

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mysteries/photos/stpaul.jpg
:D :D :D

seems like we have a nice gathering of the gods today aswell (bottom right)

Conf1rMed MarcUK is not conf1rMed

[MarcUK]

does it have a head? And is it attached?

verily, verily i tell thee - from my location, its well severed by 7-15 pm tonight

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mysteries/photos/behead.jpg

[MarcUK]

segovius

a video to celebrate the end of an era for me and onto new pastures. who would have thought that what you wouldn't tell me would be gift-wrapped to me by the vatican? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKH4KxAT8-Y

Rilkean Heart,
I looked for you to give me transcendent experiences
To transport me out of self and aloneness and alienation
Into a sense of oneness and connecton, ecstatic and magical
I became a junkie for it
I come looking for the next high and
I'm sorry I've been putting the search on the wrong place

I understand that you're confused
Feeling overwhelmed
Well, that's a feeling state from then
The reality

Becoming truly self-reliant
And become connected with something beyond me
That is where I have to go
I'm so sorry I've been putting the search on the wrong place

You're lost and don't know what to do
But that's not all of you
That's your reality today
And that is all okay

[Frank777]

Don't get me wrong. I do respect the New Testament. I just don't respect Paul. There is much evidence that he got facts about Jesus wrong, or he simply infused his own beliefs (that didn't match those of Jesus) into what was written.

Tell the truth Tonton. You just can't stand Romans 1. :D


For what it's worth, I take all such "discoveries" with a grain of salt nowadays. It seems most (especially in Israel) have a significant tourist component to them.

Of course, don't get me started about Catholic theology. 'Venerating' saints as objects of worship is unbiblical, misguided and just plain stupid.

While Catholics remain allies in several cultural battles, their silly theology must be compared with their uncanny ability to just plain make up nonsense as they go along. Case in point: the ones going around saying that The Nativity Story movie is in error because Mary is shown as having a natural childbirth.

Apparently this is in conflict with the "perpetual virgin" school of Catholic thought, which strikes me as a very good thing for the movie.

[thuh Freak]

...their silly theology must be compared with their uncanny ability to just plain make up nonsense as they go along...

that's almost spit-up-at-my-monitor funny.

[MacRR]

haaa haa - I know. The utter irony! man- that's pure comedy.

[SpamSandwich]

There is different way of practicing religion, and futhermore of believing. For some people, it's important to have a simple approach : their relation with god is direct, and they see it at a number of their family (the father) and the others are part of this family, who deserve truly respect and why not worship.
For others, believing is god, is more a spirutual process, higly centered on mysticism. This kind of people do not see saints or others, as part of their own family, but people who have a great faith in the past and who dedicated their life to god.

When exactly did Jesus say he needed a Pope and a Vatican to communicate to humanity? I must have missed something.

[Frank777]

There is different way of practicing religion, and futhermore of believing. For some people, it's important to have a simple approach : their relation with god is direct, and they see it at a number of their family (the father) and the others are part of this family, who deserve truly respect and why not worship.

I missed this in Powerdoc's post.

Why not worship? Because the Bible that Catholics profess to believe in says, without question, that all worship must be directed to God, and God alone.

[segovius]

While Catholics remain allies in several cultural battles.......

Newspeak Translation Service: after we have used each other as cannon fodder in our jihad to exterminate Islam we'll return to kicking the bejeezus out of each other again.....

[dmz]

Newspeak Translation Service: after we have used each other as cannon fodder in our jihad to exterminate Islam we'll return to kicking the bejeezus out of each other again.....
No, no, no -- not after Vatican II. (But what we need now is a Vatican III.)

[Powerdoc]

When exactly did Jesus say he needed a Pope and a Vatican to communicate to humanity? I must have missed something.

Yes you have missed something : my point is not what Jesus did say or did not say, but how people practice religion, and more precisely : the different way of practicing the same religion.

[Powerdoc]

I missed this in Powerdoc's post.

Why not worship? Because the Bible that Catholics profess to believe in says, without question, that all worship must be directed to God, and God alone.

Yes, but in practice, I know some people who have small icons of saints at home and who pray in front of them. They will say that the saint is only a mediator, but my point is that their relation with the religion is different.
Catholicism has been very strong in the art, of assimilating other religions or practice since centuries. The way you practice catholicism in Peru, is different than the way you practice catholicism in the intellectual sphere of a big city. One is not superior to the other (it's not my point), but there is clearly big differences.
My point is that people who practice even the same religion, have differents aspirations. My point was not saying that catholic worship saints like god himself, but that some people have a more familiar approach to religion than others.